Based on continents map, standard settings.

Benchmarks for Emperor:

I'm starting to gather that you should have at least one of the following advantages by 1 AD, and more by 1400AD:

1) a tech lead (possibly 100+ beakers/turn, though having a lead is more important than actual numbers).
2) lots of world wonders (6+ or so).
3) 6-8 cities, with enough land blocked off for 12+ cities, or
4) a killer army to take such land (being competitive on the power graph with aggressive rivals).

It's possible to attain any one of the above conditions (it seems like most AI will also be ahead in one way or another), but not all of them simultaneously, and you must focus on one of them. Once attained, around 1AD or shortly thereafter, it should be leveraged to gain some of the other advantages.

----
based on responses to the original post:

I'm constantly getting trounced on Emperor! I've won a few times, but most of the time, my game falls apart.

Typical scenario:

1) It's sometime between 1AD and 1400AD. For me, that's somewhere in the transition from Classical to Medieval Eras.

2) I have 6 to 8 cities and I'm on a continent with 2 or 3 other AI, who usually have more cities than I do.

3) Science is somewhere between 100 and 200 beakers per turn. Occasionally I can get up to 400 per turn if everything goes well (e.g., Financial+Colossus+Golden Age = Moneybags in the water. :crazyeye: But that is a rare feat for me because I usually don't go for wonders or golden ages early on).

4) I have 35 military units or so (around 5 units per city, usually 4 units of mixed types, and a catapult or two). I accomplish this by having 2-3 cities that build virtually nothing but units -monument, barracks, and then straight to units, with the occasional building - usually a granary or forge. I also whip now and then for buildings.

The problem I'm having is that around this time my economy really starts to pick up - most of my cities are specialized by this point and hitting the double digits in size. I'd love to expand at this stage but what usually happens is that I wind up going into defense mode. An aggressive AI (or two) will roll through with wave after wave of stacks, and eventually take a city or two. Almost always between 1AD and 1400AD.

I've read a ton of articles (especially Pete's guide, Snaaty's guide, Best Practice for a Cottage Economy by InvisibleStalke, etc) and they help, but I just can't seem to make ends meet in the early-to-mid-game. Unlike them, I almost never have 12 cities by the time I hit CS/Bureaucracy, and I definitely don't discover Liberalism before 1000AD (let alone 325AD!), even with bulbing.

btw, I'm playing Darius (Fin/Org) on continents map, default settings. I'm going for either a space race or domination. The few times I won with Darius, it was due to luck: Peaceful neighbors and blocking off enough land to expand (eventually up to 12+ cities, very, very slowly).

Anyway, my question:

Aside from the fact that every game is different, all things equal, what kinds of benchmarks do you typically have on an average Emperor level game?

Economy at 1AD: how many cities do you have, and what's your income or science rate (in beakers, not percentage)? How many total cottages do you have in your empire and/or specialists per city? How do you get there and where do you go from there?

Military: at 1AD, how many units do you have, and how do you support them? Personally, I can't seem to build an army larger than 50 units, let alone support them, in the early AD's without killing the economy... How do you do it?

Any advice would be appreciated.

I have only won 2 emperor games so far, but the tactic i use was pretty similar in both of them.

What i aim for in 1AD is to have a couple of Drill archers fortified, together with some city garrison arcers. I also try to have atleast two catapults (combat 1 + shock) available in border cities, and 3-4 horse archers. Then i try to keep a couple of Woodsman axemen fortified in forests nearby, to act as decoys. (Sometimes the AI find it more important to take out a woodsman 3 axeman fortified on a forested hill, and that WILL save you a lot of trouble).

If their stack is not too big, the catapults should be used to weaken them as soon as they are in a vulnerable position (aka open land). Suicide the catapults on the stack, and pick off wounded units with your horse archers / axemen.

In my last game i had 9 cities with farms and mines, 120 beakers / turn, 0% science rate (but a lot of scientist specialists). I was also founder of Christianity due to oracle slingshot towards theology.

The following is based on normal sized continents map - normal settings - Emperor - Marathon game speed.

----------

I usually have only 4 or if I am really lucky 5 cities by 1 AD. Yes I know it doesn't sound like much, but they are all located in extremely good locations, and I will have built 5 or again if I am lucky 6 wonders by then.

These wonders give me an advantage that the AI don't have, as do the excellent city locations, as the AI always go for quantity of cities rather than quality of cities.

My 5 or if I am lucky 6 wonders are located in my first 3 cities, (capital + 2 others), and they are exerting so much cultural influence any nearby AI city is going to flip. I match specialists to the wonders in each city. By that I mean if I have 2 wonders in one city generating Great Artist points, then I will run artist specialists, but if the wonder is generating science points, then I will run scientists and so on.

Wonders and Great People in the early game are mega powerful for the following reasons.

1) The AI tend to settle cities to close to you early in the game, and they are very easy to flip providing you work for the flip using the strength of culture. You don't have to be going for a Culture victory to use culture as a weapon. Large amounts of culture in the early game are hugely powerful, and fit in with any victory win you may be pursuing. This is because early culture protects the integrity of your own borders, expands them, flips any nearby city and allows you to create early choke points to deny another AI access to un-settled land.
2) Building wonders extends your city borders very quickly, and this allows you to chop additional forests and/or link up additional resources very early in the game.
3) The early / classic period is the most important period in the game, and its wonders give you an advantage the AI don't have. If you don't build a good number of early / classic period wonders, then the AI will, and then they have the advantage, not you. Two wonders in particular are mega powerful, as they allow any Gov't type and any Religious type.
4) All wonders help speed up production of Great People, and when you add specialists to the mix plus the right govt and religion - you will start to pop Great People at a machine gun rate, (i.e. Representation + Pacifism).

-----------

The above gives me a tech lead + culture lead by 1 AD but my 4 or 5 cities appear small and weak as a kitten. However, like I said, they are in excellent locations, and probably have the same production potential as 7 or 8 AI cities. I therefore switch to military production at about this time, (I use Barracks + Theocracy), and start churning out defence units with 2 promotions. I don't have to worry about my science or money or health or happiness at this point, because my cities have large borders, lots or resources, and I am using the the right govt civics.

Yes, a hostile AI or military AI or religious nut will probably have a pop at me at about this time, but I just let them destroy their attack stacks against my cities, whilst I safely churn out my own military machine. If the enemy stacks are large and nasty then I use multiple cats, (2 - 8 at a time), to soften them up when they are outside my city, and one turn before they launch their attack. My city defences hold for quite a few turns, because of walls plus high culture, so I have to be careful not to use my cats until my defences are one turn away from zero.

Circa 2 or 3 cities will be vulnerable to pillaging, and that is a pain, but one of the keys to the higher difficulty levels, is to create lots and lots of early workers. I am therefore usually running about 8 workers at this point, so it's easy enough to lump them into a large repair stack that can rebuild anything in just one or two turns.

My capital and one other city are usually safe from pillaging, as the enemy are tied up on my border cities. I am very, very protective of my capital, as I do not want it's cottages pillaged. I am therefore mindful of future enemy pillaging when locating and specialising my cities. All of them are in such good locations that they can run both a CE and a SE, but I tend to build cottages in the safe inner ones, and farms in the border cities. This is because the AI can easily pillage border cities, but I can just as easily rebuild a farm, and at little cost. My border cities are often on hills, but if it's a choice between a resource weak hill location, or a resource rich lowland location, I always go for the lowland choice.

I settle one Great Generals in each of my core cities, then I settle all other Great Generals in the Heroic Epic city. If I can, I will pick a coastal city, as it will then be able to churn out level 3+ naval units later in the game.

I use diplomacy / bribery / espionage and will gift tech if there is an advantage to me. Likewise, I will give up tech to avoid a war, or to halt a war I am not ready for.

Another key to the higher difficulty levels, is learning to fight a war when and where you want, and to avoid them at all other times. If this means changing religion, or govt type, or giving away tech to appease a bully, then so be it. If you have a tech lead at this time, and I do, then it's easy enough to buy off a civ, providing you offer them something tasty.

I don't tolerate military civs on my continent and I always plan to kill them off, but I need a proper army to deal with them, so I buy yourself time, and work towards a long term plan. I can and will eventually start a war with either Mace + trebs or rifle = trebs, but I prefer rifle. As and when I am ready to fight a war, they are usually over very fast, because I have planed for it, hundreds, if not thousands of years in advance.

I win about 80% of Emperor games, I usually play as Elizabeth and although I follow different tech paths in different games, I always beeline whatever tech path I decide to follow. I personally think the best beeline is to follow the top path on the tech tree, as it gives the best science and culture wonders, but there are very strong arguments for following the middle or bottom, and for light bulbing and slingshot.

Hope there are a few ideas in the above that are of help.

Regards - Mr P

Thanks for the responses. Among other things, I'll experiment with fewer cities with more wonders and see how that goes, and also try a game with a lot of cities where I build only farms and mines.

@ PibbZ:
In my last game i had 9 cities with farms and mines, 120 beakers / turn, 0% science rate (but a lot of scientist specialists).

If you don't have any cottages, how do you get the money to support all of those cities and units? I have a hard time doing that, even with the slider at 0%.

@ Rvil Plum:
The early / classic period is the most important period in the game...

I agree. This seems to be the phase that makes or breaks the game for me. I'm pretty bad at it, so I've been focusing the first 100 moves or so. Usually by 1AD I can tell whether or not I have a chance at winning. Needless to say, I often retire shortly after 1AD.

Try playing as rome and creating a Praet army to subjugate and capitulate neighbors, thats my favorite strat for Emperor, also Cottage spam is where the money is at!

Thanks for the responses. Among other things, I'll experiment with fewer cities with more wonders and see how that goes, and also try a game with a lot of cities where I build only farms and mines.

@ PibbZ:


If you don't have any cottages, how do you get the money to support all of those cities and units? I have a hard time doing that, even with the slider at 0%.

@ Rvil Plum:


I agree. This seems to be the phase that makes or breaks the game for me. I'm pretty bad at it, so I've been focusing the first 100 moves or so. Usually by 1AD I can tell whether or not I have a chance at winning. Needless to say, I often retire shortly after 1AD.

Merchants or building wealth? Passive commerce doesn't hurt either, but I do tend to use cottages.

I recently moved up to Emperor myself and have won a few times. Diplomacy is extremely important. When REXing, you want enough workers to improve tiles very quickly for new cities without neglecting old ones also (about 1.5 per city). Prioritize food at first to grow cities more quickly.

Also, play the land. If most of your good city sites appear coastal, grab the GLH (it's pretty easy to get and situationally very powerful...again must manage diplomacy and bribe people out of merc, but it sure is fun getting 10+ commerce per coastal city just from trade routes). Industrious or having stone leads one towards the mids or great wall usually...alternatively if you have marble early on you can probably win the oracle race and take monarchy (to grow huge cities early), metal casting (nice trade bait), etc. If you have happy resources keep expanding horizontally and get them.

If the AI's are stifling you (or you realize that one will), there's nothing wrong with axe rushing them (or swords). Sometimes I whip a city to hell (under monarchy), whipping units out abusing the 2 pop whip trick with 2 good food resources. Yes, when your SoD leaves that city it will be useless for a long time, but if this gets you to 13+ cities worth of land, is that really such a bad loss?

Finally, you might want to back off some wonders...I try to limit myself to a few key ones (and usually just one) when REXing, unless I have tons of room.

As a final note, if you can stay even in tech, you can beat much more powerful AI stacks back. Use siege on defense to weaken their entire stack and kill it (massing WW for them too)...do NOT let their stack do this to yours, even if you have to give up a city at first then take it back.

The AI might want peace after that (with favorable terms to you)...you can take it, or just build up and pick off their units as they come until your force is larger...WW is no issue in defensive wars at all.

Globe drafting cities are pretty fun too. Check out DaveMCW's suggestion about using monarchy and whip overflow from catapults to make it (then you can freely remove the units and still make use of the city for more whipping).

Alternatively, once you have guilds/caste you can workshop a few cities up and troop spam.

Caste system and running merchants is one way to recover your economy at the point when you hit 0% science slider, which happens to me in almost every emperor game at some point.

@ PibbZ:

If you don't have any cottages, how do you get the money to support all of those cities and units? I have a hard time doing that, even with the slider at 0%.

loaded a save from 20AD to check some facts, as i wrote my initial post at work, and my memory tend to serve me wrongly from time to time ;)

My captial is starting to get cottaged, but they havnt been developing for long, still in hamlet phase. I used farms in the beginning to grow it faster, and whipped the important buildings.

I have founded christianity, and built the shrine, that yields me +19gold/turn.
2 settled great prohpets, thats nother +10gold/turn.

I used a great spy to infiltrate the romans, which was leading in tech for quite some time. Open borders with them, and spies in galleys in a costal city was how i kept up to date with technologies. (I procued 61 beakers/turn, bad info in my first post).

My army is really small, and i dont have loads of workers, so im only paying 12gold for units, 44 for city maintanance and 42 for civics. Perfectly doable :) 113 income and 106 expenses with 0% science slider.

However, it needs to be mentioned, the last 3 or 4 cities aint more than a few hundred years old. But i still make a profit every turn :)


http://chicksdigx-pec.com/files/pibbz/Civ4ScreenShot0058.JPG

@ PibbZ:

That's some really fast expansion. Props!

Yeah, it looks like the holy shrine helps a lot.

I see that you're playing 11+ civs and that you're on turn#352. Is that marathon speed? I play 7 civs at normal speed. 1AD at normal speed is sometime around turn#115. I've read that the gameplay different on different speeds. But I've never tried longer games. Just wondering how it affects expansion, whether it speeds it up or slows it down.


@ TheMeInTeam:
Use siege on defense to weaken their entire stack and kill it (massing WW for them too)...do NOT let their stack do this to yours, even if you have to give up a city at first then take it back.

Wow. That really made sense. It's about attacking first, even on defense.

So in my most recent game, I was at war with both Shaka and Alexander (I HATE those guys!). I declared on Shaka because he was trying to roll his SoD around my border, probably to take a barb city on the other side... usually Shaka declares first but I couldn't afford to let him claim that city. Alexander just likes to war so he decided to join Shaka later.

I posted my army at a choke point on a jungled hill and declared war. They arrived on an adjacent plains tile. I took out a stack with 3 suicide catapults and 5 axes. I also had 2 immortals (chariots with bonuses vs axes and archers, promoted to flanking & sentry) to pick off the remaining unit and rejoin the stack, and 2 a couple of archers (guerrilla, woodsman) for the occasional passive defense if the chariots couldn't handle them. Promoted the units and replaced the catapults. And then, a few turns later, they showed up again at the same spot! ...hey Shaka, it's not working... but they kept on attacking... 8 stacks later, I had high-level Axes, 2 Generals, I had researched Machinery + Civil Service, and was building Heroic Epic. Peace treaties. The best part was that I never moved my army anywhere! :lol:

Shaka and Zander were boxed in for the rest of the game. And with that, I was able to secure the bulk of the continent, 33% of the world's landmass, an eventual 18 cities, and a Space Race Victory - my first win on Emperor while sharing a continent against two aggressive leaders.

Thanks all, for the tips on defensive warring. :)

Merchants or building wealth? Passive commerce doesn't hurt either, but I do tend to use cottages.

Cottages are the easiest by far (especially for me as I use a financial leader). But building wealth... is obviously the most direct solution (how does someone "Build Wealth" anyway? or Culture? Always thought that was weird. In Civ I you can "Build Cure for Cancer." Weird.) I think I ruled out building wealth because earlier versions only gave you 50% wealth from the hammers (Civ IV Vanilla?), but I just looked it up and noticed that it gives you 100% of your hammers' worth.


@brades:
Caste system and running merchants is one way to recover your economy at the point when you hit 0% science slider, which happens to me in almost every emperor game at some point.

Switch to the Caste System? And turn in my whip? Never!!! :p Seriously, I never use Caste System. It's usually straight from Slavery to Emancipation. Time to try it. That, and espionage.

@ PibbZ:

That's some really fast expansion. Props!

Yeah, it looks like the holy shrine helps a lot.

I see that you're playing 11+ civs and that you're on turn#352. Is that marathon speed? I play 7 civs at normal speed. 1AD at normal speed is sometime around turn#115. I've read that the gameplay different on different speeds. But I've never tried longer games. Just wondering how it affects expansion, whether it speeds it up or slows it down.


Its marathon yep, 17 civs total, however Ragnar was being wiped out a few turns later by Stalin. I simply love marathon, it makes units lifespam much longer, and it also extends the use of Castels and Privateer plunder. :)

If you've got 5 units per city, why not go on the offensive rather than idly waiting for someone to attack you? Those 5 per city could be rearranged to leave the cities at the back of your empire relatively threadbare with only 1 or 2 units each, while the cities that border your 'target' civ could have quite veritable stacks! A quick strike at the heartland of a neighbour can cripple them sufficiently to give you the edge for years to come.

I find I'm usually unable to take out a civ in one attempt at Emperor; their defenses and the war weariness usually put a stop to this. However, if you can cripple them just a little, enough to gain a small advantage in tech say, then after a brief rebuilding effort, the next offensive will do more damage, the next more, etc, etc, until they finally capitulate. It's paramount to keep other civs in good (i.e. pleased and above) relations. Being the unliked guy on the block will usually = dogpile.

Good luck.

I usually run HR at this phase, so I need the units inside my cities. I prefer HR over other early forms of happiness. Monarchy is a sure thing. The Pyramids + representation is a gamble, resources and religions are often scarce, the culture slider interferes with the cottage output, buildings cost hammers, and I need the units anyway for defense, so I might as well spend the hammers on units that can defend the city.

You're right though. I should play more aggressively, especially in the early game. Maybe build twice as many units so that I have some to move around.

Science is somewhere between 100 and 200 beakers per turn. Occasionally I can get up to 400 per turn if everything goes well (e.g., Financial+Colossus+Golden Age = Moneybags in the water. But that is a rare feat for me because I usually don't go for wonders or golden ages early on).

I just played a game at Emperor. 62 beakers/turn at 1AD, 4 cities. I can't imagine 200 beakers/turn at this point. Do you have a screenshot of the cities screen 1 AD? I'd like to know what your population and production is for each city at this point.

I'm getting trounced and the AI is 5-6 tech ahead of me. I may be over-whipping my population, or perhaps not specializing well enough.

I just played a game at Emperor. 62 beakers/turn at 1AD, 4 cities. I can't imagine 200 beakers/turn at this point. Do you have a screenshot of the cities screen 1 AD? I'd like to know what your population and production is for each city at this point.

Well, I'm having a rough time with emperor as well (thus, this thread). I was giving ballpark figures based on many games that I've played, between 1AD and 1400AD, or turns 115 and 200, respectively. This is the most difficult phase for me because I'm usually recovering from expansion.

So I checked back on the game I was thinking of (moneybags in the water). It was actually 540AD and I was getting 230 beakers per turn during a golden age (don't have a save for 1AD).

http://www.bustafilm.com/vault/civ/colossusga540ad.jpg

Deserts and ocean. Talk about getting the shaft. I was rushing to Philosophy, and founded Taoism 2 turns later. In this game I wasn't recovering from expansion obviously. I had only 5 cities... beelined to riflery and eventually wiped out my neighbor with spies (revolt = 0% cultural defense), trebuchets (barrage), and riflemen. He hadn't discovered gunpowder yet. Unfortunately after razing that only put me at 9 cities, which wasn't enough. The problem was production. One or two more production cities would have helped tremendously.

Oh, here's the domestic advisor:
http://www.bustafilm.com/vault/civ/540ad-domesticadvisor0000.jpg

Nothing to write home about. Production was weak, as I was putting everything into science so I could snag Philosophy:
http://www.bustafilm.com/vault/civ/540AD-persepolis0000.jpg

(Looks like I should have been working that flood plains cottage instead of a coastal tile. Just before the golden age I was working the iron and 3 cottages, then got distracted by the coastal moneybags :crazyeye:. Also, as you can see, happiness was an issue. And finally, I had more improved tiles than I had people to work them. Chalk it up as another loss.)

As far as the benchmark goes, I'm starting to gather that you should have at
least one of the following advantages by 1 AD, and more by 1400AD:
1) at least 100 beakers per turn, upwards of 400 beakers by 1400 AD.
2) lots of world wonders 6+
3) 6-8 cities, with enough land blocked off for 12+ cities
4) or a killer army to take such land.

Any one of the above conditions are possible (it seems like most AI will always be ahead in one way or another), but not all of them simultaneously, and you must focus... and yes, it helps to specialize the city right off the bat.

What I've been doing is saving every 20 turns, writing a log, and planning the next 20 turns. 1AD is turn#115, so that's about 6 logs.

For specializing, sometimes I save just before founding a city, and write a log about it, e.g.,
"Turn 44-2240BC:
Founded Pasargadae.
4 tiles west of capital, located on a river, pigs, bronze, 5 hills, lots of forest. Production city.
Build 3 Archers, Chop Monument and Barracks, Build/Chop/Whip 9 Axes.

Next City: Claim Rice/Ivory/Gold --> Commerce + Happiness"
and so on.

When I don't write logs, I always lose. I only have a chance at winning when I'm super focused.

If you want to see a good walkthrough, check out Snaaty's guide (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=248435).

EDIT:
It's top notch. Snaaty has 297 beakers/turn at 325AD, and it's NOT a golden age.

@ PibbZ:
my first win on Emperor while sharing a continent against two aggressive leaders.


aggreassive leaders are easier if you take on and box them early game. builder civs give more trouble, as it's really hard to keep up with them in the late game.

Benchmarks 2,3 and 4 look good, but not sure about 1 though. Having "X" number of beakers on Emperor may be a good benchmark, but I don't use beakers as a guideline. Instead my science benchmark is that I beeline one part of the tech tree, so as to gain and maintain a tech lead. This allows me first pop at building a wonder I want or an advantage in military units, but I then leverage that tech lead via trading to get other tech or via bribery to buy off a hostile civ or via warfare to gain land and resources. I therefore think it's more important to research the right techs, than it is to have a particular amount of high science. Yes you need good research ability to be able to beeline, but if you don't have a tech lead in the early part of the game, than you can't trade for other tech, and/or gain a significant military advantage and / or bribe hostile civs to leave you alone.

So my science benchmark in the early period is a tech lead. if I have a tech lead, then thumbs up, but I don't then thumbs down.

Regards - Mr P

So are you immortal rushing? If you're playing as Darius there's no reason not to. If it's a continents map clear out at least 1 other civ from the continent, though with Immortals you can easily clear out an entire continent for yourself. They're right up there with Praets as the most OP UU.

aggreassive leaders are easier if you take on and box them early game. builder civs give more trouble, as it's really hard to keep up with them in the late game.

Yeah, Shaka and Alex were surprisingly weak after they got boxed in. At least the builder civs have techs to trade. Also, it's easier to box the more peaceful civs in. Ramses, Hammurabi, Asoka, Mansa, and even Isabella (she's not so peaceful, but by converting you can wrap her around your finger)... are all harmless after you get the upper hand in land mass.

Also, I tend to be more of a builder, making my biggest gains in the later phases of the game. That is if I make it into the late game. My early game is weak and it's the military civs that give me the most trouble game after game.


So my science benchmark in the early period is a tech lead.

Gotcha. I'll put these on the top of of the thread.

So are you immortal rushing? If you're playing as Darius there's no reason not to. If it's a continents map clear out at least 1 other civ from the continent, though with Immortals you can easily clear out an entire continent for yourself. They're right up there with Praets as the most OP UU.

Good in theory, but I haven't been able to pull it off. Why? Spearmen and AI rexing.

I've tried immortal rushing several times and have been able to pick on the other civs, steal workers, and even take a city or two, but not to the point of clearing out another civ. Their spearmen show up way early, and I find myself more preoccupied with trying to deny them copper/iron or countering their spearmen with axes - both of these things take the force out of the rush. Also, while I'm building nothing but immortals and paying the upkeep for them, the AI rex like crazy. Even the ones that I pick on. And my economy suffers for it.

As far as I can tell, you need to be both skilled and lucky to be able to wipe out an entire continent with immortals. You need 4 techs (AH, wheel, BW, IW), horses near one of your first (and only) two cities, you need to discover the AI's copper and iron before they do, you need a strong enough force to halt their expansion, and finally, you need to conquer them. I have neither the skill or the luck for this.

But if anyone can clear out a continent using immortals on emperor level or above, and do it consistently (90% of the time, without regenerating), I'd like to see it...

@BalbanesBeoulve
Judging by your experience, I'm sure that you know better than I would about immortal rushing and such. It's just my frustration speaking. :)

Hah... I didn't even reach over 200 beakers/turn until like 1500AD. Surprisingly, I'm in first place, 2nd in military and competitive in research.

It is a standard game, with all the standard settings. The map type is random, but I suspect it is a big/small one. I was stuck on a large island with Shaka, FDR, Ghandi, Hannibal, and playing Saladin. The other 2 civs are Elizabeth and Qin and are somewhere off on some island not being a threat.

I didn't go for any wonders (which is probably why my beakers/turn suck so bad), and ran a CE because I had no stone nearby.

I quickly got 5 cities, some with gold until I decided to take out Shaka's capital. From there, I ended up vassalizing him and genocided the Americans. Ghandi had a single city and offered to be my vassal which I accepted.

What made a difference in this game was the constant warring between my rivals and some better micromanaging of my cities. So in other words... luck. Hannibal is my biggest rival with a prodigious tech rate and the largest military. He is "pleased" with me, so I may try for a cultural victory. Not sure yet how to win this one.

At 1AD I was at 62 beakers/turn. At 1400 AD I think I was at around 150 beakers/turn.

I'll have to post a screen shot if I still have an autosave at around those time periods so you can all tell me where I'm going wrong.

Thanks.

The earliest screenshot I have is for 250AD. My tech rate is pathetic!

My later screenshots is for 1635AD which shows me at first place, but I suspect that 400 beakers/turn is still pretty weak for that age.

Any advice, criticisms, cruel jokes and browbeating welcome.

P.S. Sir Squirt is named after my fiance's filthy cat.

The earliest screenshot I have is for 250AD. My tech rate is pathetic!

My later screenshots is for 1635AD which shows me at first place, but I suspect that 400 beakers/turn is still pretty weak for that age.

Any advice, criticisms, cruel jokes and browbeating welcome.

P.S. Sir Squirt is named after my fiance's filthy cat.

235 AD:
It looks like you're doing fine in terms of military production at this point, so these suggestions are in terms of science / economy.

You could have used more workers. Better to err on the side of having improved tiles that aren't worked than to have citizens working low-yield land. For example, Medina should be working the river grassland hill (mined) rather than the forest (that's 1F/3P/1C rather than 1F/2P/0C). Also, for the land in between Mecca and Baghdad, the grassland hill next to the river should be worked rather than the one on the coast, and it should definitely be mined before it gets worked (that's 1F/3P/1C instead of the 1F/1P/0C). In both of these cases it's not just about the hammers - it's also about the commerce. Having these two improvements give you a net gain of 3P & 2C... these little things can really add up.

Since Mecca is your designated science city, I'd recommend dedicating it more to the task. Put down cottages on the plains rivers earlier. Actually, you might want to even consider placing a cottage on the river grassland hill instead of a building a mine. Remember that the plains will give you hammers, too, and that growing cottages can sometimes be more important than growing the population, especially in the capital if you foresee hitting a health cap. Later on, with the combination of bureacracy, US, and levees, the capital science city with its riverside cottages will have no problem cranking out its share of hammers. Build nothing but buildings/wealth/research, and possibly a wonder(TGL). Leave the unit production to the other cities (e.g, in 250AD, have Baghdad build the spearman and Mecca build the market instead of the other way around). If you don't have an academy there yet, get an academy going in Mecca ASAP, e.g., assign 2 scientists in one city instead of 1 scientist in two cities. Even if you do have an academy up, consider settling a couple of scientists there as well. That helps to compensate for not having TGL.

I think you're doing pretty well @1635AD. Maybe a bit behind in tech but 412 beakers isn't bad and you've got some land to work with. I don't know how beneficial vassalizing is as a whole. In exchange for happiness, maintenance costs go up, so maybe the extra people you get out of the deal should be assigned to cottages. Just a thought. Obviously, I'm biased towards cottage spamming.

Do you have saves for these screenshots?

Yes, I have the saves.

Thank you for your comments. I've noticed that I seem to forget that river tiles mean +1 commerce and should be worked earlier than others.

Also, cottages on hills? It never occurred to me at all! I don't think I've ever done that before.:crazyeye:

I agree I should have built at least one more worker to take care of Medina. I sometimes get caught up into doing one particular thing, like building an army to crush Shaka, and forget about micromanagement. Also the hill on the coast next to Baghdad you were referring to was actually a gold mine so I needed to work that for my economy. Baghdad was going to be a commerce city because it was coastal, gold mine, two floodplains and limited production. I don't think I had much of a choice in using Mecca for production.

Mecca was definitely my primary science/finance city. I never was able to get the Great Library, but it was the eventual home of Oxford and Wall Street. Later I got a Great Prophet for a shrine.

Vassalizing Shaka was a mistake. I should have gotten rid of him. He had a holy city and I should have taken it by force. A number of times my cities went into revolt because of nearby cities. I just like saying to my fiancee, "I just made Shaka my . .. .. .. .. .!"

Also you mention that maintenance goes up when vassalizing? I didn't realize that you pay maintenance for vassalized cities. I thought an advantage to NOT vassalizing that you wouldn't pay maintenance for those cities.

I really think I benefitted for some decent circumstance in this game. What kind of tech rate do you think I should have had at 250AD in this game?

I've also added the initial autosave for this game for your enjoyment/analysis.

Thanks!

Also, cottages on hills? It never occurred to me at all! I don't think I've ever done that before.:crazyeye:
Well it's not always a good idea, but if you really want to leverage your capital into a super commerce city... cottage everything possible! At least half of the land. I think you can pull off at least 10 cottages in Mecca.

I agree I should have built at least one more worker to take care of Medina. I sometimes get caught up into doing one particular thing, like building an army to crush Shaka, and forget about micromanagement.

Yeah, me too. I sometimes get caught up in war and neglect the economy. But usually I get caught up in building instead and wind up neglecting the army.

Also the hill on the coast next to Baghdad you were referring to was actually a gold mine so I needed to work that for my economy. Baghdad was going to be a commerce city because it was coastal, gold mine, two floodplains and limited production. I don't think I had much of a choice in using Mecca for production.

I was referring to the hill directly north of Baghdad. True, Mecca might have been needed for production, though early on I'd be inclined to relieve Mecca of that task and assign Baghdad to building those units. The palace is better than a gold mine because it generates the same amount of commerce but doesn't require any food or citizens to work it. For Baghdad, by farming all three river tiles and working four hills (which is possible due to having gold, gems, and ivory for happiness), you can get 15 hammers, which is decent production for the early game. After chain irrigation becomes available you can farm the remaining grassland to the NE and grow into working the coastal tiles. Not a bad hybrid city.

I just like saying to my fiancee, "I just made Shaka my . .. .. .. .. .!"

:lol:


Also you mention that maintenance goes up when vassalizing? I didn't realize that you pay maintenance for vassalized cities. I thought an advantage to NOT vassalizing that you wouldn't pay maintenance for those cities.
I just looked it up, and apparently vassal cities count towards your "Number of Cities" maintenance cost.

I really think I benefitted for some decent circumstance in this game. What kind of tech rate do you think I should have had at 250AD in this game?

Dunno. Starting out with a gold and 2 gems, maybe it could have been a little higher. Maybe you could have had a few catapults by 250AD? (ADDED: Because you're 1 turn from Mathematics, Construction is next. A couple of more cottages earlier on and a few more farms for faster growth could possibly have resulted in some catapults for your army. Also, Sailing & Calendar are up soon, which unlocks 2 Dye and 2 Spices.). Then again, you waged a successful war and you're also scoring higher than the AI during the renaissance era, so at this point does it matter what your tech rate was at 250AD? It's tough to say but I tempted to try the map just for kicks.

Then again, you waged a successful war and you're also scoring higher than the AI during the renaissance era, so at this point does it matter what your tech rate was at 250AD? It's tough to say but I tempted to try the map just for kicks.

I'm just trying to benchmark myself against other players to find out how well I'm micromanaging my cities. I've often felt I was somewhat deficient in this area, so I definitely welcome your feedback.

If you do try this map, I'd be very interested in your feedback.

I'm just trying to benchmark myself against other players to find out how well I'm micromanaging my cities. I've often felt I was somewhat deficient in this area, so I definitely welcome your feedback.

If you do try this map, I'd be very interested in your feedback.

I played the map and saved it @250AD.

The main challenges seem to be food, health, and crowding. We have 3 sources of grain but they're all of the same kind - rice. The corn to the north looks pretty juicy... as does the pig to the west. But the corn looks juicier because of the additional health bonus from granaries. Since we're on the coast there should be some seafood but there doesn't appear to be any around, except to the northeast. Also, it is definitely crowded here, with 5 civs on a continent, and being stuck between Shaka and Hannibal isn't the safest or happiest of arrangements.

The good news is that there's 2 gems, a gold mine, and 2 ivory, as well as spice and dye, which means that there's plenty of happiness to go around. Calendar is a research priority to unlock the spice and dye, as is Drama for the +1 for dye from theatres. Metal Casting won't be that great because while forges multiply the +happiness from gems and gold, they also create -health, and health resources are what is scarce. For similar reasons, Monarchy won't be a huge boost either. Guilds will definitely be a higher priority than usual because of the health bonus from spices. There's also bananas up there with Hannibal, as well as silk...

So in my version of the map, the tech rate is 101 beakers/turn. This is due mostly to cottage spamming the flood plains early on, but also due to researching calendar early on for the added happiness/commerce. It hit 100 beakers/turn sometime around 375 BC, but priorities shifted away to other things for a little while so it dropped. My military is pathetic though. Completely neglected production. And the cities aren't managed that well. All of them are happy and growing at least by a little, even with the health issues. I could use more work on the eastern half, around Najran and Kufah. Civil Service and Guilds are on the wish list... and aqueducts. And more land. Definitely more land.

Thanks for the input. I found it interesting how you essentially bee-lined to CoL neglecting Monarchy, Alphabet and any early religions. I like your logic of the lack of food resource that allows you to ignore such techs.

Your city placement was better as Medina was further west to choke Shaka and Baghdad was used to take advantage of all the flood plains.

In my game, Najran was used to grab horses. I didn't realize that Camel archers could be utilized without horses, but the Chariots were pretty useful nonetheless.

I'd be very concerned about your military being as weak as it is and having Shaka as a neighbor. He is currently annoyed at you and will attack anyone he perceives as weak. If he attacks now, I think you might be in trouble.

I probably would have spammed military units instead of settling Kufah.

The earliest screenshot I have is for 250AD. My tech rate is pathetic!

My later screenshots is for 1635AD which shows me at first place, but I suspect that 400 beakers/turn is still pretty weak for that age.

Any advice, criticisms, cruel jokes and browbeating welcome.

P.S. Sir Squirt is named after my fiance's filthy cat.

Build Libraries as soon as you can, and convert two citizens into Scientist Specialists.

Consider making Great Scientists from your Great Person farm.

Run SE (Specialist Economy) to maximize Great Scientists.

Trade technology if you must.

Build Libraries as soon as you can, and convert two citizens into Scientist Specialists.

Consider making Great Scientists from your Great Person farm.

Run SE (Specialist Economy) to maximize Great Scientists.

Yes, I definitely built Madrassas as soon as I could but I didn't run as many specialists as I normally do. I only ran 2 specialists civ-wide

Question: Without pyramids, I opted for more of a cottage-type economy. I thought it would be a questionable strategy to run too many specialists without lots of floodplains or food resources. How would you leverage specialists in this situation?

I typically run almost a cottage-less SE if I have stone nearby and using a philosophical leader. If either of those criteria is missing, I will play the map and play situationally based on the maptype and food resources. If I'm neither philosophical nor pyramid-bound, I will only run specialists when controlling population or when there are no attractive tiles to work. Does that seem right to you?

Yes, I definitely built Madrassas as soon as I could but I didn't run as many specialists as I normally do. I only ran 2 specialists civ-wide

Question: Without pyramids, I opted for more of a cottage-type economy. I thought it would be a questionable strategy to run too many specialists without lots of floodplains or food resources. How would you leverage specialists in this situation?

I typically run almost a cottage-less SE if I have stone nearby and using a philosophical leader. If either of those criteria is missing, I will play the map and play situationally based on the maptype and food resources. If I'm neither philosophical nor pyramid-bound, I will only run specialists when controlling population or when there are no attractive tiles to work. Does that seem right to you?

You can pretty much run the two Scientist Specialists in any city. If you are lucky to have seafood/food bonus, all the better.

Of course, much later in the game you can build the National Park National Wonder, and run many specialists.

Running the Caste System civic allows unlimited Scientist Specialists.

Science Great Wonders: Great Library and University of Sankore.
Science National Wonders: National Park, Oxford University, and Red Cross
Science Buildings: Monestary, Laboratorys, Library, Observatory, University

Civics: Caste System, Representation, Free Religion

I'd be very concerned about your military being as weak as it is and having Shaka as a neighbor. He is currently annoyed at you and will attack anyone he perceives as weak. If he attacks now, I think you might be in trouble.

I probably would have spammed military units instead of settling Kufah.

I would definitely be in trouble!

Playing as Saladin and being able to switch civics and religions without disorder provides an edge in diplomacy, so it's easier to stay out of unfavorable wars. My default strategy is to expand peacefully as much as possible and push borders with culture. Saladin seems to be a suitable leader for that.

At 250AD Shaka was too busy being furious with Ghandi to mess with me. It's 1010AD now and Shaka and Hannibal are both pleased (+8 and +5). Shaka never attacked me. He's even willing to trade techs (not that it would be a good idea to do so...).

I agree that it probably would have been better to spam units instead of building Kufah. That land was unclaimed and I wanted to beat the AI to it so I settled it compulsively. hmm. Currently building mace and crossbows, though probably not enough of them. I haven't been able to work that out...

What's a good benchmark for "a killer army?"
When you spam units, how many cities to use and how many do you build?

If I'm neither philosophical nor pyramid-bound, I will only run specialists when controlling population or when there are no attractive tiles to work. Does that seem right to you?

When I run a CE I only run 2 scientists to build the academy. Then it's all cottages until biology. I'll whip population to control it. It seems to work quite well.

You can pretty much run the two Scientist Specialists in any city. If you are lucky to have seafood/food bonus, all the better.

Of course, much later in the game you can build the National Park National Wonder, and run many specialists.

Running the Caste System civic allows unlimited Scientist Specialists.

Science Great Wonders: Great Library and University of Sankore.
Science National Wonders: National Park, Oxford University, and Red Cross
Science Buildings: Monestary, Laboratorys, Library, Observatory, University

Civics: Caste System, Representation, Free Religion

Earlier in this thread includes the initial autosave. If you have a chance, I'd like to see how you would approach this map. It just seems like this map is SE prohibitive. I don't see how you can handle this particular map running lots of SEs.

What's a good benchmark for "a killer army?"
When you spam units, how many cities to use and how many do you build?

My definition is based on being competitive with the power graph with my aggressive rivals. I do not like being backstabbed and being competitive allows me to feel safer when REXing.

Going after Shaka was a necessary evil for me. I go with the whole preemptive strike/Axis-of-evil philosophy. In addition, Shaka had some nice gold mines in his capital city and since he was at war with Ghandi, he wasn't focusing on me which gave me the opportunity to land a crippling blow, capturing the capital and other key cities before he was able to mobilize properly. I felt this was far better than allowing him to dictate the "when and where's" of battle. The worst case scenario is him declaring war when other civs are also annoyed at me for some reason. Getting dogpiled on isn't as fun as it sounds.

As far as the number of cities to use, I won't use a new city that has other pressing needs (such as granary, library, etc.), but will use any other city that has a decent production capability. I like to build mines like you like to build cottages. Ideally, a specialized production city would build nothing but troops.

In my game Najran ended up being my chief production city for quite some time until some of my conquered cities developed. It wasn't the most ideal city for this, but it worked out okay as I was first in production for most of the game.

Diplomacy isn't my strong suit. Using spiritual to switch out civics/religion to appease rivals is something I'll have try.

When I run a CE I only run 2 scientists to build the academy. Then it's all cottages until biology. I'll whip population to control it. It seems to work quite well.

I'm scared to death of the "city in revolt" event when whipping a city that has a population > 5. I guess with Spiritual, I could switch in and out civics to possibly avoid that.

I'm scared to death of the "city in revolt" event when whipping a city that has a population > 5. I guess with Spiritual, I could switch in and out civics to possibly avoid that.

They're not going to be happy campers. It's slavery, after all... crack that whip! :mad: :p

As long as all of the cities are growing and generating positive income, random slave revolts don't bother me. The occasional turn of disorder in a city is par for the course, much like losing units during battles. In many cases, I'd rather have a turn of revolt in a city than lose a military unit.

Also, overpopulation is welcome because it makes the population cheaper (and thus, more expendable). I try to have at least 1 food resource per city (or flood plains) and farm enough for +4 food/turn, intentionally trying to grow past the caps. With this type of setup, angry people are preferred over specialists because surplus people are used for big hammer infusions. I noticed that you tend to have a lack of food this game. So maybe experimenting with getting larger food surpluses and whipping population might be an interesting way to expand your repertoire. I am the opposite; I should experiment more with specialists/caste/workshops.

If you haven't tried it, an example of a good place for an outrageously evil whip in your game in 1635AD might be the city of uMgungundlovu.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=177069&stc=1&d=1210898842
There's a huge abundance of food, some unhealthiness, and not enough buildings. Maybe start with the grocer (build for 1 turn, and then whip 5 population!... be sure to put your remaining citizens on commerce and food rather than production). The overflow hammers will go to the forge, and the city will grow back in no time at all. Plus, you get your grocer benefits immediately. It's probably quicker to do that for a couple of buildings than to try to use mills and workshops for everything. Another thing is that when the city has no unhealthiness or unhappiness (e.g., after whipping the grocer in uMgungundlovu), you have a chance of getting a "We love our leader day." Kind of ironic, eh?

If you haven't tried it, an example of a good place for an outrageously evil whip in your game in 1635AD might be the city of uMgungundlovu.

There's a huge abundance of food, some unhealthiness, and not enough buildings. Maybe start with the grocer (build for 1 turn, and then whip 5 population!... be sure to put your remaining citizens on commerce and food rather than production). The overflow hammers will go to the forge, and the city will grow back in no time at all. Plus, you get your grocer benefits immediately. It's probably quicker to do that for a couple of buildings than to try to use mills and workshops for everything. Another thing is that when the city has no unhealthiness or unhappiness (e.g., after whipping the grocer in uMgungundlovu), you have a chance of getting a "We love our leader day." Kind of ironic, eh?


Whip for 5 pop? Is there a limit to your cruelty? I will whip for 2 or 3 pop, but I'm afraid that 5 pop might remove too many worked squares. I'd have to think about that.

Besides, I have a rule that I don't whip in any cities that I cannot pronounce.

Whip for 5 pop? Is there a limit to your cruelty? I will whip for 2 or 3 pop, but I'm afraid that 5 pop might remove too many worked squares. I'd have to think about that.

Besides, I have a rule that I don't whip in any cities that I cannot pronounce.

Just few farms... they're already going to waste due to the health penalty. Maybe switch civics as you were considering before - Organized Religion - then it costs 4 pop instead, and 1 of them grows back the same turn.

Actually, it looks like you've already been at it, but you can't pronounce that? Really? For that, you should whip them again. :mischief:

Maybe switch civics as you were considering before - Organized Religion - then it costs 4 pop instead, and 1 of them grows back the same turn.

How does switching to Organized Religion cause one pop to grow back at the same turn?

How does switching to Organized Religion cause one pop to grow back at the same turn?

Heh... Sorry... that was poorly stated. Since whipping reduces the city's size, its growth requirement is reduced as well. So when the food storage is almost full, a whip will make it completely full and it will grow back by one population at the end of the turn.

The point is that this city is a great place for rapidly whipping up infrastructure, and imo, pop-rushing a grocer here before completing the forge is better than staying unhealthy while slow-building the forge.

(Goes Slightly Cross-Eyed...)
See, THIS is why I eschew Emporer difficulty lol

Maybe start with the grocer (build for 1 turn, and then whip 5 population

PartAnon, you are correct. Whipping huge population in that city makes a lot of sense. Believe it or not, I "whipped" up a city simluation in Excel. It's not perfect (I didn't realize that new granaries needed time to fill before pop can grow) but it indicated, based on a choice between a 5 pop whip for a grocer (1 hammer - 151 hammer) and building the hard way, after turn nine (about the time you'll be ready to whip again), you'll have

+145 hammers (including a grocer), -30 beakers, +5.4 coin.

If you build the grocer the hard way, you won't get it until another 2 turns.

The loss of beakers is certainly worth the gain in hammers.

You did that in Excel? Could you post that? Sounds useful... :p

You did that in Excel? Could you post that? Sounds useful... :p

It's in a very rough form as I only worked on it yesterday night. It's not tested very thoroughly so if you try it, let me know how well it works.

The three sheets you modify values in red.

Prod goal is the hammer value of whatever item your city is making.
Prod hammer/gold/research is the bonus you get after your item is done (e.g., ".25" hammer for forge)
Food store is how much food you currently have stored up.

In the third sheet, A2:B2 represent slider values
F2:K2 represent existing bonuses. For example, if you already have a library, you would put .25 in G2.

Row 4 represents gold you get from trade and any additional food/hammer/gold/resources from super specialists.
Row 5 does not change as it's what you get from the palace
Rows A6:H6 and up are tile values in F/H/Commerce

You basically order the F/N/Commerce or Specialist values based on how you would assign them in order of value. At one pop, you probably would focus on food, so you would put down the food resource first at Row 6: 6/0/0

If you want a specialist, say a scientist at pop 5, you would enter 0/0/0/0/6/0

After entering the values, you Go to tools, macro, Run Generate.

Columns J:L list the cumulative values.

This simulation will not figure out accurately the affects of whipping a granary, and it assumes that if you have a granary, it is full, or will be full when population increases.

It's really interesting to see the affects of whipping in different circumstances. In most cases it will adversely affect your research, but it will also net a hammer gain. Whipping is more tolerated in larger cities, because the unworked tiles is less of a problem and the % gain from the instant access to, say a grocer, is much greater.

If you try this out, please do some testing on it. I really haven't had the time to do that.

I don't mean to whip this thread into something that's off-topic, but I'm starting to get an understanding on how best to use a whip.

You just don't want to willy-nilly use the whip whenever the whip-anger subsides.

Since whipping certainly affects the growth of your cities, you need to look at the potential tiles that your population can work. If those tiles are decent or high in commerce, you don't want to whip. The opportunity cost will be too great.

It's been often said to use the whip for +2 population early on. This definitely holds true when the happy cap is at 5-6.

However, as you approach Monarchy (or Pyramids), the opportunity costs start to multiply significantly until your city reaches > 12. Then the benefits of having a new multiplier (25% for grocer) start to outweigh the cost of having unworked tiles.

My new rule of whipping is to whip early and often until monarchy is within 7-10 turns. Then only whip when within a few turns of reaching the happy cap.

I take the extremely conservative-yet-Nationally-Conserving approach, a la WC
Only whip when something huge is about to be lost (or gained), IMO. Otherwise, just govern better.

In the early-to-mid game I literally farm the population for hammers. The key is to have at least one food resource in the city (a good rule of thumb for any city)... preferably two or more.

Whipping granaries, work boats, lighthouses, and/or workers accelerates growth. Whipping a monument yields earlier border pop. Whipping infrastructure in commerce cities allows you to focus on growing cottages. Whipping in the GP farm allows you to focus on the food. Whipping a city down into happiness and health is often more productive than slow building (especially with the low caps on Emperor+). Whipping with the Globe Theatre is phenomenal. And so on. Whip, whip, whip.

The main place where whipping isn't that helpful is in the production cities, because they already produce plenty of hammers and need the food to support the mines. But in commerce cities (particularly the high-food cottage cities gearing up for Universal Suffrage), I find frequent whipping to be too productive too pass up.

But yeah, there are already tons of threads on this topic. :p

(Goes Slightly Cross-Eyed...)
See, THIS is why I eschew Emporer difficulty lol

:lol:

Yeah, look at us... counting, micromanaging, making spreadsheets...

The whip has the largest disproportionate impact in the early / classic period, as do specialists, and unfortunately if you whip, then you often lose the spare food capacity needed to run specialists.

Example, you have just discovered Writing and built / chopped / whipped libraries in your major cities. Most early cities are capable of running 2 specialist scientists at this point in the game, and 2 scientists per city have a huge impact on your research rate at this time, and they also have the added benefit of causing Great Scientists to pop.

However the whip is uber powerful in small / medium sized cities during this period, because the cities are so quick to bounce back after a whip, so you do want to use it, BUT to get the best of both worlds, you need to use it carefully. If you constantly whip your cities, then you won't be able to run many if any specialists, your research rate will be a fraction of its true potential, and you won't pop many if any Great Scientists. So although I do use the whip during the early / classic period, I only part build / chop and whip:

My first few workers
My first few work boats
All Wonders
My first few settlers

Using a heavy and constant whip is OK to produce military units, if you are doing a rush or delayed rush on a neighbouring civ in the early / classic period, but you don't really want to whip military units in normal peacetime.

The only early / classic age buildings that I always part build and then whip are libraries forges and granaries, as these are the only buildings in the early period that give 25% and 50% bonuses. I will also whip Obelisks if I am going for the Statue of Zeus, and a lighthouse in a tundra / ice city, but that's it.

So yes whip, but only whip certain things at certain times, and never over whip, especially in the early / classic period, as it's hugely counterproductive.

Needless to say if you are playing at a lower difficulty level and don't use specialists, then feel free to whip away to your hearts content.

Regards - Mr P

The whip has the largest disproportionate impact in the early / classic period, as do specialists, and unfortunately if you whip, then you often lose the spare food capacity needed to run specialists.
Regards - Mr P

Hmm. I don't go too crazy with it, but yes, I do whip and I definitely have trouble getting those early scientists going. In many of my games, the first GS doesn't show up until after 1AD, and I know that other players manage to get them out sooner (even with non-philosophical leaders). When I get some decent research going, production suffers. Overall, I never feel like I manage to get my civ up and running as quickly as I'd like to.

Anyone else interested in playing this map?

foobarred had a strong military at 250AD; I went for science instead. If anyone else would like play this map and try for a different advantage by 250AD, such as wonderspamming, or an early conquest, or to establish more cities, or to try for the same advantages (military buildup or decent science rate) but do a better job at it - anything, really - play it, save at 250AD, and post the results... I'm curious to see what you'd do with it.

EDIT:
(the save is on page 2 in post#23)

Regarding specialists, I tend to get libraries early (whip if I have to) in order to run specialists. I'd rather run a specialist than whip in order to control population.

I've been running a few simulations in my spreadsheet (I've updated it if anyone is interested) and come to a surprising (for me, at least) conclusion that once you have libraries, run specialists immediately, even if you are short of the happy cap.

In my simulation I compared a scenario where I have 2 specialists with stagnating growth at 5, and another one where I grow the city to 6 (using a coastal 2F/2C) before running 2 specialists. Both cities have granaries, and the slider is at 100%.

The first city does better until turn 9 which is when the other city catches up in research. At turn 9, both cities would have accumulated 200 beakers. City 1 has 54GPP and City 2 has 30 GPP. At turn 17, City 1 has its GP, and City 2 has 78 GPP. At this point, City 2 is 20 beakers better than City 1.

If an Academy is built (+50%=+10 beakers/turn in my city with specialists or +9 b/turn if you start growing the population with 2F/2C tiles.), and you elect to grow the city to 6, at turn 20, you'll be 7 beakers ahead and 1 turn short of a population of 6. City 2 will have 96 GPP. On turn 21, both cities will be identical, but City 1 will have accumulated 16 more beakers.

I'm not sure how the situation would change if you grow using a 2F/3C or 3F/0C tiles. I might try that next.

On another note:

I played a new game where I was Dutch (Fin/Crea) in a Fractal map type (I think, I always randomize almost everything). I first played where I whipped quite a few things, and then I played a game where I only whipped sparingly. I got trounced the first game, and I won handily the second game (my first Emperor win). I can't quite remember, but I think I only whipped libraries, granaries and lighthouses and only in cities with high food sources.

The difference being is that I recognized that the coastal (2F 3C) were awesome tiles and whipping population carried a huge opportunity cost. I threw away the whip after I got Colossus. I wish I had some save points, but I believe I was over 100 beakers/turn at 0AD and at 400 beakers/turn at around 1200AD when I got civil service.

Update: Growing with 3F/0C is worse than growing with 2F/2C. Also, if growing with 2F/2C, running two specialists at pop 5 is still better by 8.25 beakers. It's pretty much a break even at that point, but you'll have more beakers earlier which is also important.

OK, you are almost at the "Eureka" moment, so just one more push. You now know that libraries with 2 speculist is the optimum research rate at that stage of the early game when your cities have a pop / health cap of 5, and that you need those libraries fast if you are not lightbulbing, but what's the most optimum research path once you have them?

Assuming you collected bronze, masonry and one or two health bonuses before researching writing, then you have a tech lead the moment you discover writing, but what's the most optimum way to develop it?

To save you crunching the figures, the answer is:

+ Aesthetics (then back research the two techs for the wonders you want to build)
+ Then Literacy
+ Then Music

Total wonders - Aesthetics has 3, Literacy has 1 and Music has 1 = total 5

You can get all 3 Aesthetics wonders on Emperor, but it's really difficult to do, as it requires a huge amount of forward planning. This is because you need 3 Obelisks for the Statue of Zeus, and Gold for the religious wonder. You then have to build one of the 3 wonders really quickly, so as to make room for the Great Library, so you need to plan out the forests to chop / where your extended borders will benefit you most / etc. Having an Engineer pop from the Pyramids can be part of that forward planning process, but it's not essential.

The only problem with this optimum research path is the enemy civs, as they will constantly demand the above 3 techs, and you can''t give them away / trade them, until the wonders are well under construction.

Although you can get all 3 Aesthetics wonders, it's not a disaster if you miss one, as the cash you receive will help you power through with a high research rate via running a negative budget most of the way to Music. The cash from a failed wonder will also help you to keep expanding and help you to start building up your military, so don't go postal if a rival civ beats you to a wonder. Don't worry about alphabet, as you can easily trade for it, but do worry about cats, as you will need them. You will probably have to do a poor trade to get mathematics, (chop bonus and part of the forward planning), and Construction (cats), but once you have those cats you can comfortably hold off the enemy.

PS: If you agree that it's an interesting route, then try the above, but with the Great Wall and Pyramids added to the mix, as that gives you the most optimum route of all, plus it expands your city borders early, and they will then be ready for the huge chop you need to do later. That said, this route won't work as well on Immortal, as the AI will beat you to more wonders, and it's more dangerous to be doing so much early wonder building on Immortal, as the military nuts have a stronger rush and seem more aggressive.

Regards - Mr P

I've typically research Aesthetics/Literature before Alphabet anyway, so this wouldn't be a huge change for me. I like to get the Great Library as soon as possible.

Depending on the circumstance, I'll get Monarchy/CoL/Currency. I'll often try to trade for Monarchy, but I never seem to be able to get it early enough. If I'm food-poor or if I have Pyramids, I can hold off on Monarchy or ignore it completely, but if not, I'll research it myself.

I agree Pyramids is awesome, but unless I have stone nearby, I prefer to use my hammers for soldiers.

I normally don't do much wonder building because generally like to take out a neighbor. For example, in the game posted on this thread, I had Shaka as a neighbor, and my beginning strategy was to take him out. This meant rushing the Madrassas, teching military, and then building soldiers skipping wonders entirely.

I guess I'm surprised that you pretty much ignore CoL and Currency in your list of priorities.

I'll try your tech path on my next game.

PS: If you agree that it's an interesting route, then try the above, but with the Great Wall and Pyramids added to the mix, as that gives you the most optimum route of all, plus it expands your city borders early, and they will then be ready for the huge chop you need to do later.

Okay, I'll try this until I've got it down. Though it's apparent that pulling this off is all about the details. Questions:

- How do you defend yourself while you do all of this? I'm still terrible at balancing military needs with building infrastructure, let alone wonder-building. How many units, what types, how many cities dedicated to military production vs. wonder production vs. science, how many barracks, how many libraries, how many hammers do your cities bring in, etc...

- Do you build any cottages, or is this a specialist-only strategy?

- What do you do if there isn't any stone or marble? Do you wait for mathematics? How many forests do you chop? 4? 8? 12? Do you need to use an industrious leader?

Also, if you've got a game saved circa 1AD or so, that would really help as a point of reference.

I hope I didn't bombard you with too much...

I played a new game where I was Dutch (Fin/Crea) in a Fractal map type (I think, I always randomize almost everything). I first played where I whipped quite a few things, and then I played a game where I only whipped sparingly. I got trounced the first game, and I won handily the second game (my first Emperor win). I can't quite remember, but I think I only whipped libraries, granaries and lighthouses and only in cities with high food sources.

The difference being is that I recognized that the coastal (2F 3C) were awesome tiles and whipping population carried a huge opportunity cost. I threw away the whip after I got Colossus. I wish I had some save points, but I believe I was over 100 beakers/turn at 0AD and at 400 beakers/turn at around 1200AD when I got civil service.

Yeees! This is such a killer combo that it bears repeating:

Financial trait + Colossus + Working max commerce tiles = Mad crazy science!

That, with 2-3 golden ages (1GP/2GP/Taj Mahal) thrown into the mix and you really rake it in. It doesn't get much better than this for coastal cities (the Great Lighthouse helps too).

Moai Statues help to cover the production needs. It also helps to have the Creative trait because you don't need monuments (one less thing to potentially whip).

---
btw, what ended up happening with the Saladin game? Because you were doing quite well there...

A couple of things I do to win immortal games.

#1 is play the land and situation you are given. If you just want to win match your stratigy to the advantages your land, even more than your civ, gives you.

The rest are just general ideas to try to follow.

If you are playing a heavily coastal map, the Great lighthouse can be innavaluable at higher levels. It is better on higher levels because it does not require large cities (how happy cap) and is more effective the more rival cities there are. On these maps I tend to stay friendly with all but one civ early and get to Astronomy ASAP. The commererce you rake in can be up between 10-20 gpt per city. This alows rapid expansion. Also remember that domestic overeas cities make good trade routes, so putting fishing villages on islands incfreases your commererce.

Try to fight your offensive wars when you have a tech advantage against the main defensive unit of the opponent. The key techs are feudalism- Rifling- Assembly line Do not be afraid of advanced offensive units in who you attack. If you are carfull you can pick these units off. My wars are based on Macemen vs archer, Rifle or Grenadier vs longbow and infrantry vs rifle. If it is an island map, beeline to frigates or later destroyers so you can fight a war completly on your oppents continent.

Yeees! This is such a killer combo that it bears repeating:

Financial trait + Colossus + Working max commerce tiles = Mad crazy science!

That, with 2-3 golden ages (1GP/2GP/Taj Mahal) thrown into the mix and you really rake it in. It doesn't get much better than this for coastal cities (the Great Lighthouse helps too).

Moai Statues help to cover the production needs. It also helps to have the Creative trait because you don't need monuments (one less thing to potentially whip).

---
btw, what ended up happening with the Saladin game? Because you were doing quite well there...


I've never played the Dutch before, and never used the Maoi Statues... however, the dikes are probably the best UB I've ever used. I went from being 5th in production to 2nd after getting the tech for them.

The Saladin game, I conquered the Americans and Hannibal was the only other powerful nation left. At this point, I got really lazy and tried for a cultural victory since he was better in military and tech. Very foolish given I had no wonders. He easily beat me to a cultural victory himself.

I should have simply beelined to fission and got nukes. I had such a espionage advantage that I could see inside their cities. I could have decimated his stacks and won a domination victory. I was considering replaying it, but instead I decided to try for a different map to try out some of these new strategies.

I think Dutch + lots of coastline + Great Lighthouse + Colossus + Oracle + Sistine Chapel + a bunch of other wonders + Dikes = unfair even at Emperor.

You ended up winning your game?

I'd also be interested if Rvil Plum tried out the map. I second your concern about possibly having too weak of a military, but I'm open to any strategy. Heck, I thought your military was too weak, but you seemed to work out your problems diplomatically.

You ended up winning your game?

I second your concern about possibly having too weak of a military, but I'm open to any strategy. Heck, I thought your military was too weak, but you seemed to work out your problems diplomatically.

With diplomacy I was able to keep my 2 immediate neighbors from attacking me so I could concentrate on infrastructure. But with the weak military I didn't really have any other options. Since then we've all become pals.

I'm not sure whether or not I want to continue with it, and I started another game. But going back to this, one thing of note is that I haven't expanded since 250AD. It's 1100AD now and Shaka is ripe for a backstabbing. The problem is that he, Hannibal, and I are all of the same religion, so I'll piss both of them off if I attack, and I don't have a military to work with. Just a few macemen for the most part. My cultural borders are holding, but, yeah, no military. I'm trying to build Notre Dame, but I don't have marble and it's being built in a low production city so it's probably a bad idea. 15 turns left for that unless I chop, which I don't want to do for health's sake. I have active trades with both of them, and my cities are in pretty good shape. I have the highest population, and I'm just a little bit behind Shaka with the overall score.

I think that my only chance here is by switching to heavy production - setting every city to building maces, cats, and maybe knights (trading for horse right now) and throwing everything at either Shaka or Hannibal. Not sure if I can pull that off with what I've got, since only 3 of the cities would be able to produce well. I doubt that it's possible, which is why I stopped playing. But what do you think?

I really don't think you can win this game militarily. This is what I might try. You can bribe Shaka to stop trading with Hannibal (he wants CoL and Guilds). Then, if at some point, Shaka decides to backstab Hannibal (likely if relations start to sour), join up with him to attack Hannibal.

While you're waiting for the backstabbing to occur, build up enough troops in anticipation of the coming war making sure that Shaka doesn't backstab you first, and count on grabbing Sicca and maybe Thapsus, but definitely Sicca.

Then beeline to Mass Media and build all the cultural wonders. Make sure you've been spreading your religion amongst your empire and build a couple temples. At this point, you have a choice between a possible cultural win (hopefully with Hannibal busy defending himself from the lifetime enemy of Shaka), or a diplomatic victory because everyone tends to eventually hate Shaka.

Yeah, it's pretty hopeless as far as military or tech wins go. I feel like a cultural or diplomatic win is more like trying not to lose. So I'm starting another new game. Thanks for your responses and discussion.

btw, I've been lurking around the forums and have found a lot of cool things. I'm such a noob.

Have you seen the succession games, pick your leader games, monarchists' cookbook, nobles' club, etc? These look great, since it involves multiple people playing the same map / leader / etc and comparing strategies and results. Sort of like what we've been doing on this thread, but in a more organized fashion.

Also, the BUG mod is pretty cool. It's all interface stuff - nothing about the gameplay changes. One of the features (speaking of slavery) is that it flashes a line of text momentarily, telling you that you could pop-rush. There are a bunch of other things, such as a GG bar and a GP bar on the main screen, a diplomatic status icon next to rival leaders' names, etc.

Yeah, it's pretty hopeless as far as military or tech wins go. I feel like a cultural or diplomatic win is more like trying not to lose. So I'm starting another new game. Thanks for your responses and discussion.

btw, I've been lurking around the forums and have found a lot of cool things. I'm such a noob.

Have you seen the succession games, pick your leader games, monarchists' cookbook, nobles' club, etc? These look great, since it involves multiple people playing the same map / leader / etc and comparing strategies and results. Sort of like what we've been doing on this thread, but in a more organized fashion.

Also, the BUG mod is pretty cool. It's all interface stuff - nothing about the gameplay changes. One of the features (speaking of slavery) is that it flashes a line of text momentarily, telling you that you could pop-rush. There are a bunch of other things, such as a GG bar and a GP bar on the main screen, a diplomatic status icon next to rival leaders' names, etc.

Yeah... I'm aware of BUG, but never downloaded it. Perhaps one day...

I'd started a new thread on a starting position that I had as Ragnar.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=276177

I've gotten great feedback. It's pretty unreal how good some of these guys are.