http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b66/Omnimutant/Mansa.jpg
I Understand that the AP can force people into war which is most likely what had happened here. However it breaks the whole game mechanic Idea behind a peace treaty! I just paid good Money for 10 turns of Peace then Mansa is allowed to pull this BS! It's just not right. Stupid AP is more hassle then it's worth in so many ways. I wish it was Optional, because it creates a lot of screwy things in the game and I'd just prefer not to have it at all.

And actually to make things worse, now that I look at it again, Masa adopted free religion before Being "forced" back into war with me by the AP, which means technically, hes no longer part of the AP. (at least thats how it works for me).

Actually, Asoka and Capac already have free religion so maybe it's not the AP which makes it worse!

In a recent OCC game of mine as Tokugawa, I had that happen to me where the AP causes many AI's to DoW. I was the founder of Confucianism. I also had Buddhism in Kyoto. However, Hinduism, the widely accepted World Religion did not spread to my cities. So then one day...

In one turn I was DoW'd on by Survayarman II, Pacal II, Suleiman, Roosevelt (who was actually Pleased with me), Justinian I (who was BUDDHIST and FRIENDLY with me, he only had two Hindu cities) and Zara Yaqob.

My solution? I had just gotten Rifling and was building tons of Rifleman, and I had built the Statue of Zeus earlier. So I upgraded my Macemen to Riflemen and sent them to go raze the Hindu AP city of Yasodurapura. (I wanted to raze the Hindu holy city of Pacal's capital but it was too heavily defended)

I then put Riflemen all around my Great Wall that I had built, so that no one could enter my cities BFC. I also put Riflemen on the strategic resources in my culture zone, and I put out some more workers to put more forts around the Great Wall.

Basically, the stupid AI kept sending stacks which I easily defeated, and they got massive war weariness. They essentially got left way behead from WW and I refused to give them peace. The result? I ended up leaving the psycho world on a spaceship while the AI still only had Riflemen...:lol:

But anyway, yeah, the AP is broken as hell.

Play with diplomatic victory option turned off, and all your AP problems are gone forever.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b66/Omnimutant/Mansa.jpg

You sure know how to make friends. :lol:

Many a game lost due to this kind of behavior. :mischief: The AI loves to gang up on the human player. Every time it happens I just laugh and roll my eyes. :rolleyes:

Actually, Asoka and Capac already have free religion so maybe it's not the AP which makes it worse!

I believe they can still be voting members even with Free Religion.

You are a voting member if you have a single city with the religion; that also means you can't be the target of a crusade. Civics and State religion have nothing to do with it. Acquiring such a city is often trivially easy, however, that is for wimps (almost as bad as playing with Diplomatic Victory disabled).

Torching the seat of the UN or the Vatican is one of the most fun things to do in civ; someone should do that irl. :nono: Don't even jest about such things!

I always play with diplomatic victory off. Always have. I just really dislike how AP and UN work in the game.

I always play with diplomatic victory off. Always have. I just really dislike how AP and UN work in the game.

Most games I do the same.

The AP is very powerful, in many ways moreso than the UN because it comes earlier and has lower thresholds of votes/population for its action. Plus that crusade thing -- war against the infidel, which you faced -- is pretty awesome if you own the AP.

Downside is that if you are on the outside, you are in trouble. If you have at least one city with the AP religion, at least you'll have a vote in the matter. If you can't get such a city, you're in trouble, unless you can keep everyone happy. Which isn't very likely.

Going free religion makes you a member of the AP still, just not a full member with double votes and eligibility for the high office. If the AP religion is widespread in your civilization, going against the AP vote can be tough diplomatically. That applies for both human and AI players. So naturally, if it looks like a diplomatic dogpile is coming, the others will go along. Even if they don't, if they lack enough votes to control the outcome, they must abide by the AP decision.

AP and UN actions supersede the normal turn limits for diplomatic and government change. This is good, because otherwise they would be too easy to nullify.

If you don't love the AP/UN being used against you, there are two options. First, my preference -- make sure you own the thing, and have enough votes to limit its use against you. Second, turn off diplomatic victory.

If I'm doing well in the game and have established a later religion (christianity is the obvious one, as the AP comes with it), I'll do whatever it takes to build the AP. Even if it doesn't give me global dominance, it ensures that no one else will use it against me.

The UN is less of a hassle generally, as I could have the population - mine, vassals, or allies - to block its annoyances, plus its thresholds for powerful vote are higher than the AP.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b66/Omnimutant/Mansa.jpg
I Understand that the AP can force people into war which is most likely what had happened here. However it breaks the whole game mechanic Idea behind a peace treaty! I just paid good Money for 10 turns of Peace then Mansa is allowed to pull this BS! It's just not right. Stupid AP is more hassle then it's worth in so many ways. I wish it was Optional, because it creates a lot of screwy things in the game and I'd just prefer not to have it at all.

And actually to make things worse, now that I look at it again, Masa adopted free religion before Being "forced" back into war with me by the AP, which means technically, hes no longer part of the AP. (at least thats how it works for me).

Actually, Asoka and Capac already have free religion so maybe it's not the AP which makes it worse!

Rofl, whatd you do to bring down the crusades on your ass?

Also, how the hell do you get mansa mansa to declare war on you.... Hes the biggest wimp in the game!

First off, this is an OCC so being a member of the AP would be really bad. (I would never get a say in anything).

Secondly I think everyone here missed the Point. ALL of this Happened in THE SAME TURN. I made Peace with Mansa and Paid Hugely for it, and then Everyone including him Declared on me in the SAME TURN! How can you sign a peace treaty take my money and then declare in the same turn? That just make it completely worthless to have a 10 turn peace treaty.

Also I guess I have to check again, but I thought Diplomatic Victory was turned off since I am playing OCC most of the time now.

First off, this is an OCC so being a member of the AP would be really bad. (I would never get a say in anything). Well, it would indeed be harder to get the religion, but here is the thing: It would've prevented crusade, since you are a member.

That just make it completely worthless to have a 10 turn peace treaty.I agree, you've been unlucky. But that's nothing unusual, similiar things have happened to me before. And "completely wothless": In your situation , yes, but generally it prevents him from willingly declaring war to you on his own, so its not wortheless at all.

Well, it would indeed be harder to get the religion, but here is the thing: It would've prevented crusade, since you are a member.
Your right it would have completely negated the crusade. However I would also have to abide by everything they rule on, so either way it's pretty risky IMO.

I agree it's not worthless to have the peace treaty even though I said it was, but it does make it much harder to rely on. Twice in two games I've had peace treaty's ignored, so it's a pretty big gamble.

I think my biggest Problem stems from the fact that I'm totally addicted to trying to win an OCC game. The thought of playing a multi City game just pales in comparison. OCC lets me focus on other more intricate details, where as multi city games makes me generalize more. My latest Toy has been Espionage. I'm really starting to get the ins and outs of it, and it's probably the single best tool for OCC. I just wish the Spies did not get caught so often crossing borders.

Your right it would have completely negated the crusade. However I would also have to abide by everything they rule on, so either way it's pretty risky IMO.

I agree it's not worthless to have the peace treaty even though I said it was, but it does make it much harder to rely on. Twice in two games I've had peace treaty's ignored, so it's a pretty big gamble.

I think my biggest Problem stems from the fact that I'm totally addicted to trying to win an OCC game. The thought of playing a multi City game just pales in comparison. OCC lets me focus on other more intricate details, where as multi city games makes me generalize more. My latest Toy has been Espionage. I'm really starting to get the ins and outs of it, and it's probably the single best tool for OCC. I just wish the Spies did not get caught so often crossing borders.

OCC's are my favorite way to win as well.

Hmmm that really sucks, next time just disable diplo victory's as people say, never had it happen to me before in civ but had it happen in other turn based games and it's really terrible to have the world vs. you.


( ignore he save in the attachement, i wanted to start a new thread but I'm half asleep so forgot i was in a thread)

If I'm close to the builder (when it's built)and don't have a ridiculous majority of the religion when its built, usually I just go and raze it anyway.

I'm not quite clear on why you are that fustrated though. I've definitely used it to my advantage. It's one more tool I could use to force another continent to plunge into chaos.

I've read a few threads on the OCC's. I can't quite picture though how you would get enough commerce to not severely fall behind technologically. Or if you build a wonder - which generally takes 20-30 or more turns, you are unable to put out city defenders.

I've read a few threads on the OCC's. I can't quite picture though how you would get enough commerce to not severely fall behind technologically. Or if you build a wonder - which generally takes 20-30 or more turns, you are unable to put out city defenders. I thought that at first and It felt like that the first few games. The key is Farming Great people and not burning them on techs. Each great person you plant adds a combination of :science::gold::culture::commerce::food: . Remember this is one single city that Gains the benefit from all of this. Your one city ends up a size 20+ really fast. You don't need to build Every wonder, just the ones that are important to your goals. It all adds up real fast.

I tend to stay on top of the teach lead the entire game, many people trade tech's but I disable tech trading and still do just fine.

With one city you only have 1 thing to defend. There are surprisingly some pretty big Down times where your researching and you have no Wonders to build. This is when you crank out your army. Money is never a problem so upgrading your core mass of unit's all at once is not a problem, ever.

I'd say the most important part of OCC is start location. Bad start= Failure. But thats true with any mode really.

Chop Early Chop often.

Haha, it's not over yet. There is still the world builder! =D

I thought that at first and It felt like that the first few games. The key is Farming Great people and not burning them on techs. Each great person you plant adds a combination of :science::gold::culture::commerce::food: . Remember this is one single city that Gains the benefit from all of this. Your one city ends up a size 20+ really fast. You don't need to build Every wonder, just the ones that are important to your goals. It all adds up real fast.

I tend to stay on top of the teach lead the entire game, many people trade tech's but I disable tech trading and still do just fine.

With one city you only have 1 thing to defend. There are surprisingly some pretty big Down times where your researching and you have no Wonders to build. This is when you crank out your army. Money is never a problem so upgrading your core mass of unit's all at once is not a problem, ever.

I'd say the most important part of OCC is start location. Bad start= Failure. But thats true with any mode really.

Chop Early Chop often.

I don't chop, I find the late game forest preserves way better.

The AP is an important strategic consideration in all games where it is enabled. I didn't like it at first but now I feel it abusively favors the human player and I like it a lot. I often win with it.

If you deem the AP to be trouble potentially, one option is to merely take it. If you DoW on someone who has it and take a city with the religion...YOU'RE A VOTING MEMBER! Now you won't get dogpiled just via a vote. The vote will be to stop the war. If the only city you have voting is the one you just took, just defy it :p. Capture the AP and convert into that religion (or whatever is needed diplomatically), and you're in good shape.

Ideally, the AP is built under a religion only 1 civ has, be it yours or an AI's. This allows to to manipulate it so that YOU are the ONLY person eligible for chair - and thus diplomatic victory. Granted, this usually involves some conquest (either to acquire the AP or someone to vote for you), but generally it's possible and will end games sooner if you choose.

If it's REALLY pissing you off, just razz it. Usually controlling it reaps greater rewards however.

I am completely sympathetic.

When the OP buys peace from Mansa, that should include defiance of crusades for the same time period. Mansa is agreeing to vote to defy any warlike resolutions when peace accords are reached.

All the arguments about how the player should anticipate these little AP wrinkles would apply equally to the AI who is a member of the AP and agrees to peace. They should be (programmed to be) anticipating the little wrinkle that they might have to vote to defy.

Broken, and worse, immersion breaking.