View Full Version : [Pseudo-essay] Moral Agency in games


loocas
May 11, 2008, 10:11 PM
I was reading an excellent book called Mortal Engines (http://www.amazon.com/Mortal-Engines-Hungry-City-Chronicles/dp/0060082097/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1210138396&sr=8-1) by Philip Reeve and it got me thinking about the role of the reader as moral agent, and then that of the player as moral agent in games. Civ 4 is an example of this working, and Fall from Heaven expands on those aspects. I started thinking about this, then it turned into a discussion with my wife. I hope this isn't too gratuitously long:

I’m not talking about videogames destroying children’s morality (bullplop), or about suspending one’s morality in first-person shooters—I mean games that put the player at a moral crossroads, where the only issues determining playstyle aren’t strategy or limitations in the way the game is written. The obvious first example is D&D, the paper version. The moral issue is what makes it a true role-playing game and what makes nearly all so-called RPG videogames not RPGs at all (I’m lookin’ at you, Squaresoft). There are videogames that work very well as RPGs, however, such as Morrowind.

This issue of moral agency comes when a storyteller asks the observer to take sides. Authors first have to entice the observer to care about either side of the conflict, and then have to present both sides sufficiently to avoid a good guy/bad guy scenario. In the case of Philip Reeve’s book, I found myself nearly scrambling to determine who is right in his post-apocalyptic Municipal Darwinian scenario. In real life, honest morals—wisdom—come from being able to imagine possible effects of decisions, or so I’m claiming right now. I’m talkin’ purely consequential ethics here, none of that “ought” stuff. In videogames the player first needs to be given a real choice, which is hard to do when everything is scripted and the world itself is limiting. This is where the issue of agency arises. In the same way that people claim that animals are not moral agents because, for example, the lion doesn’t choose to eat the antelope, most videogame players do not choose the path the videogame takes. In order for a game to grant the player moral agency the game must change, or at the very least give the illusion of changing, based on the player’s actions.

Morals as foreseeing effects doesn’t apply as much in games since the choices usually lead toward the same end, but the issue is how the player goes about reaching those ends. In Morrowind, you can steal or you can earn; you can kill or you can act diplomatically (or kill diplomatically if you want).

Videogames relate to the taking sides issue in a couple ways: You could say that because the player is more involved than the reader, the player has more at stake in whose side they choose in the conflict, and so they are less free to choose, limiting their moral agency; or perhaps because they affect the conflict they have greater moral agency.

Still, the game forces the player to choose, or else nothing will happen. The quintessential moment of the player’s morals coming into play is in Silent Hill 2 (FfH comes later—I promise this is only 85% off topic):

Quickly: Silent Hill is a lakeside resort town engulfed in an albedo/nigredo duality. It has manifested through a young girl’s hate after a demonic cult tried to birth their god through her and then burned her alive. The main character of SH2 is James, who has received a letter from his dead wife beckoning him to Silent Hill. The player, as James, searches for his wife while fighting monsters and being chased by a giant cheese grater (http://youtube.com/watch?v=vprETGvyShM).

At the end of the game it’s revealed to the player, as well as to James (because he forced himself to forget), that he killed his wife on her sickbed because her illness was ruining his own life. Suddenly the player, who has made it so far through the nightmare town, learns that the “hero” is a womanizing, selfish man who has been brought here for punishment. Then the player is prompted to fight the last boss—a demonic manifestation of James’s wife. What’s the player to do? Help James survive despite his crime? Seek poetic justice in the Game Over screen? Most players will probably play through just to get to the end and see what they’ve unlocked, but who couldn’t judge him? If they choose to let James die, they get a Game Over screen, but have they really failed? What does winning matter when moral superiority is at stake?

The Civ games do a good job of giving the player a moral consideration with each decision. It could be as simple as war vs. peace, but also how they treat the people. When I play the Civ games I often find myself factoring morals into my playstyle along with strategy. I’ll think, “Catherine’s got Resource X, I should take it. But, I’m Mansa Musa, I can trade for it…” Or, “Oh, Monty’s here. I should attack him just to get it over with…” Kind of flaky examples, I know. You wanna know how many vanilla games I’ve finished? One. Space race as Wang Kon. For players like me the end of the game matters very very little. “Moral superiority” is abstract, and “winning” is just a calculation, but the point is that in Civilization the choice exists.

Actually, the Moral issue is the point of the multiple victory possibilities. When a player decides “I am going to convince the rest of the world that peace is the way,” they can go for a Diplomacy victory and, if successful, receive a little number at the end telling them how well they did. The strategy-only version of this is the “Total Victory” modification (which was implemented into a FfH modmod at one point), which factors all the victory conditions into one total score at the end of the game.

I’m an RPer, so I’m looking for that aspect other than pure strategy, in hopes that every replay isn’t exactly the same. That’s where Fall from Heaven comes in, which brings good, evil, and Armageddon into the mix. Now I’m a neutral civilization and I want to go heavy on the research, but do I really want to build Stigmata of the Unborn if it means bumping up the AC that much? As Varn I hesitate to adopt Slavery even though I have tons of food but no production. In FfH the win-vs.-moral-superiority bit is amplified. My civ’s in the middle of the scoreboard, but dang it, I’m gonna protect these holy relics. The game is ultimately an every-civ-for-itself game, so as far as choosing sides in the conflict goes, exactly how far I’ll go on a moral scale will depend on which civ I’m playing. If I understand correctly, this was the major idea behind FfH as a Civ4 mod, and to that I’d like to say, “yay.”

thewyrm
May 12, 2008, 07:22 AM
I am with you 100% on rp'ing your civs, as I have argued on several other threads. One of the biggest problems people run into is deciding that "winning" is the only option. I lose a lot of games, but it is the process itself that made it worth it.

MagisterCultuum
May 12, 2008, 08:33 AM
I for one often turn all the victory conditions off.

nihonjeff
May 12, 2008, 12:54 PM
Interesting and insightful post, loocas. I wholeheartedly agree. I die a little inside every time I see a 'killer strat' post requiring seven religion changes to fine-tune alignment and terrain before grinding out a ridiculous and pointless victory.

Sigh.

Kael
May 12, 2008, 01:09 PM
Timmy, Johnny and Spike.

Spike wants to win, preferablly as completly and efficiently as possible. He will perfect the Clan rush, prove that a archer with 2 movement is completly broken and generally be the best person in the world to balance the game. Even if the rest of us all think he's crazy (and a little to passionate in his arguments).

Johnny wants to be creative. He wants to do weird crazy things that no one else has ever thought of. He will try to play a an Order Calabim nation, Elohim with double the normal AC, or roleplay his civ regardless of the actual practical benifit of his choices. Johnny's write the best game summary's, and read everytihng in the pedia. I am a Johnny.

Timmy is less hard core than the other two types. He is drawn into FfH because he wants to try something. He heard you could summon a demon civ and then play as them, or cover the world with a forested elven nation. He begins his game with an idea of what he wants to try out. Timmy's want releases with new features every few weeks to give them new things to try.

We have to appeal to all three types, and there are things in FfH for each. But it can be confusing to read posts from other types on things in the game that have little interest to you. But between the three ends of the spectrum we come away with a game that everyone enjoys (even if I typically favor Johnny's because thats what I am).

Wyrmhero
May 12, 2008, 01:20 PM
Timmy, Johnny and Spike.

Spike wants to win, preferablly as completly and efficiently as possible. He will perfect the Clan rush, prove that a archer with 2 movement is completly broken and generally be the best person in the world to balance the game. Even if the rest of us all think he's crazy (and a little to passionate in his arguments).

Johnny wants to be creative. He wants to do weird crazy things that no one else has ever thought of. He will try to play a an Order Calabim nation, Elohim with double the normal AC, or roleplay his civ regardless of the actual practical benifit of his choices. Johnny's write the best game summary's, and read everytihng in the pedia. I am a Johnny.

Timmy is less hard core than the other two types. He is drawn into FfH because he wants to try something. He heard you could summon a demon civ and then play as them, or cover the world with a forested elven nation. He begins his game with an idea of what he wants to try out. Timmy's want releases with new features every few weeks to give them new things to try.

We have to appeal to all three types, and there are things in FfH for each. But it can be confusing to read posts from other types on things in the game that have little interest to you. But between the three ends of the spectrum we come away with a game that everyone enjoys (even if I typically favor Johnny's because thats what I am).


Where have I heard that before? :mischief:

Although I do like to win FfH, I find I have to do it thematically, e.g., the Amurites building the Tower of Mastery, or the Calabim attacking others with hordes of Vampires...

Kael
May 12, 2008, 01:28 PM
Where have I heard that before? :mischief:

Although I do like to win FfH, I find I have to do it thematically, e.g., the Amurites building the Tower of Mastery, or the Calabim attacking others with hordes of Vampires...

Mark Rosewater, game design genius: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/mr11b

Monkeyfinger
May 12, 2008, 02:09 PM
The moral issue is what makes it a true role-playing game and what makes nearly all so-called RPG videogames not RPGs at all (I’m lookin’ at you, Squaresoft). There are videogames that work very well as RPGs, however, such as Morrowind.

http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/9695/stonecoldlolnoks8.gif

also, role playing game videogames

A_Hamster
May 12, 2008, 02:23 PM
I’m an RPer, so I’m looking for that aspect other than pure strategy, in hopes that every replay isn’t exactly the same. That’s where Fall from Heaven comes in, which brings good, evil, and Armageddon into the mix. Now I’m a neutral civilization and I want to go heavy on the research, but do I really want to build Stigmata of the Unborn if it means bumping up the AC that much? As Varn I hesitate to adopt Slavery even though I have tons of food but no production. In FfH the win-vs.-moral-superiority bit is amplified. My civ’s in the middle of the scoreboard, but dang it, I’m gonna protect these holy relics. The game is ultimately an every-civ-for-itself game, so as far as choosing sides in the conflict goes, exactly how far I’ll go on a moral scale will depend on which civ I’m playing. If I understand correctly, this was the major idea behind FfH as a Civ4 mod, and to that I’d like to say, “yay.”

For me it varies between a purely "Gamist" point-of-view and a RP. It is dependent on just how evocative the game is. For standard civ, it is easy to be purely Gamist: while I enjoy the game, it is still "just a game" with no moral implications and minimal emotional investment Thus my game play decisions are based on strategic considerations. "Gilgamesh's culture is threatening my frontier cities, he has a double shrine city in his capital and the Pyramids, but I've Swordsmen, Cats, and Horse Archers, and the best unit he has is a Chariot. It's hammer time!" Oh, and in that game, I'm playing Gandhi of India. Gandhi certainly would not start a war of aggression, but I'm not Gandhi. These are not real lives at stake, and I do want to win the game. So the Sumerians must die. Morality is not an issue here.

When I find the game or setting evocative, some role-playing will color decisions. For example, Caesar II was my first historical city-builder sim. I've a background in Roman history which made the game attractive to me. It also lent itself to a certain "patrician" mentality when building cities. Since the "industrial" areas of the city never have high property values due to the noise and pollution, as a Roman patrician I felt there was no need to waste expensive amenities such as public baths on the plebeians of that area. In character, yes, but foolish from a pure gamist standpoint since it meant the area became a cesspool and started a plague which effected the whole city. Similarly, with Zeus, which is the Greek city building sim, my play is very appropriate for Golden Age Athens. Following the Creed of Apollo (A healthy mind in a healthy body), my polis becomes the heart of Hellenistic culture and learning with no (respectable) pursuit of the mind or body neglected. To pay for all this, the city is the seat of an Aegean-spanning trade empire. While a trade empire is sound economic strategy, and certain cultural buildings are necessary for the city to develop and so required by the game mechanics, it was not necessary to overbuild the culture and athletic buildings. I incurred the monetary and labor expenses because the historical Greek city-state I admire is Golden Age Athens, and these were Athenian priorities. It is not necessarily the optimum game-play strategy, but it is the right RP choice.

Now I'm new to FfH: I've started six games, and finished four. (Just started game six.) As such, I'm not well-versed in the lore or optimum game strategies. However, I can see the RPing will creep in as I become more knowledgeable in both areas. FfH is evocative, and it is a more immersive game-play experience. Still, in my pen-and-paper RPG days, I liked playing against type, so I'd take a genre cliche and twist it. So at some point (for example) I may play corrupted Elohim. It would be a slow descent into evil, all starting from the best intentions, but taking the expedient course instead of sticking to their principles. And yet, they'd still be concerned with their original mission of mercy. The use of Undead and Demons would be rationalized as now no living being with a chance of spiritual redemption would have to die in war. Life is preserved. Just slow steps like that until they slide down the slope into the Abyss. Similarly, I'll play an evil civ and either redeem them sincerely, or have the seeming goodness covering the festering rot beneath. Of course, I can't play against type until I know what the type is.

As for turning off victory conditions, that not something I'm likely to do from an RP view. However, I am thinking of playing a FfH with all but Time off. It would simply be a game of survival, much like life. After all, real civilizations usually don't have a single agenda for several centuries: as monarch or parliaments change, so do policies. The final score would be just to give me an idea of how well I did. Ironically, Perpetach would be appropriate: the trait changes reflect the changes of government. Aggressive, Organized, Creative? War party in power. Financial, Industrious, Creative? A domestic reform party has the reins. So my play would be dictated by short-term goals, much like real governments are. And I think it would be fun. Sometimes (in any version of Civ), I'm just enjoying the game play and not really thinking about victory and then the need to actually "win" kicks in and spoils the fun. Winning here would be having a thriving civ at the end of the time limit and still free to live as your society sees as "right."

Incidentally, in my current FfH game as the Malakim, I had some loose RP plans to found the Empyrean and spread the light of Lugus across Erebus, and do primarily by peaceful means. Unfortunately, the RND generator is now being very mean to me to make up for its generosity in the Balseraphs game, and I've had a horrid early game. Expediency is replacing idealism and the Malakim must go to war just to survive. My first trait change was to Aggressive to prep for the war, and now that I am at war, Charismatic. So much for the intent to be enlightened and to lead by example. In this world, the Malakim had to choose an ugly path to survive, and they are breaking heads, the cost in life be damned! (Ours and the neighbors.) So as the OP notes, the mechanism of moral agency is active in the FfH mod. Due to game play circumstances, there were certain choices available, and I chose the one which I thought would best let the Malakim live, even if it is not the most moral path.

DharmaMcLaren
May 12, 2008, 02:41 PM
Monkeyfinger: Would you rather "RPVG"?

And I often make conscience-based decisions playing the game. I suppose it's due to immersion. Though, sometimes I do heartlessly wipe out the neighbouring civs in the early game to claim a couple of extra starting valleys (on Cephalo's Creation map script); but I usually rationalise it, saying "They're better off under my rule". And I feel less remorseful fighting a war against a male leader than against a female leader - that applies to most things, I always feel more sorry for females than males. I suppose you could call it chauvanism, I prefer "chivalry".

Edit: I can never enjoy playing an Evil civ without an alignment change... I just feel bad.

loocas
May 12, 2008, 08:30 PM
http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/9695/stonecoldlolnoks8.gif

also, role playing game videogames

Is Austin working for the Department of Redundancy Department now?

Nikis-Knight
May 13, 2008, 06:38 PM
"I am Johnny's sense of moral agency"
When I play, if I'm into it, I'll be quite reluctant to take out the ai's that have helped me survive. Like the kuriotate game in my sig, which I didn't finish but quit after I suceeded at the goal I had set. I know the computer doesn't care, and i get a higher score from defeating my rivals sooner, but still, it wouldn't feel right to me. Unless of course I was evil, or had changed religions or a falling out had come about naturally, but I wouldn't try to work toards that just so I could get a domination victory sooner.
Sometimes, anyway, sometimes it's just a game, depending on my mood.

Ringtailed
May 14, 2008, 07:09 PM
In pre-made scenarios such as the Age of Ice in BTS, I tend to pick "roleplay" choices. In random map games, though, I'm all about winning. Though I enjoy the flavor, random map games for me are strategy first and flavor second. However, I do tend to prefer it if things are balanced such that the "best" strategy for a civ follows their theme in a logical manner.

One other thought: sometimes "good strategies" result in strange roleplay situations due to game engine limitations or weirdness. For example, a Balseraph druid user must first adopt RoK or Empyrean for neutral alignment but will probably then prefer to go FoL since they're following the recon path. I personally consider this to be a game engine weirdness; from a lore point of view it doesn't make sense for alignment changes to carry over between religions, ie: Balseraph adopts RoK and turns neutral. Balseraph then adopts FoL -> should go back to evil because that's his default alignment. As it is, he stays neutral. Why should the teachings of Kilmorph affect his alignment after he's turned his back on her? Also, it makes more lore sense for druids to be FoL units rather than "neutral" units.

Actually, it occurs to me that strategies that employ multiple religion changes are often trying to reach some specific alignment. In real life (and in Erebus too, I suspect), your actual "alignment" is determined by more than your choice of religion. If I were a neutral evil nature worshipper (FoL) trying to clean up my act (become true neutral or neutral good) I'd try to employ different methods of dealing with situations and consider different philosophies, not engage in a calculated and temporary conversion to Runes or The Order for ten years.