So I was trying out some variations on my SE/WSE game and I ran into someone beating me to the mids in 950BC! I think this is the earliest I've ever seen them built.

This was on Immortal difficulty. It turns out Shaka was the one who completed them. Anyone seen them built earlier?

In one of the series games I played the mids went in the 1000's. Industrious and stone can do nice things for the AI, eh?

What difficulty had you seen them built in the 1000s? I've never seen them built as early as 950 BC playing emperor mostly. This was my rude welcoming to Immortal I guess!

They got it on Emperor. It was pretty flukey, but with the metal/stone/hills in their industrious capitol I can see it. It was a couple weeks ago and I took it fairly early, so I don't remember 100% who it was...I think Qin.

Like turn 62... Augustus Caesar...on Noble.

Fortunately I was trying for a CE, if I had been running a SE I would have quit. But I ended up doing pretty good. (And Augustus ended up with like six cities...he had Justinian I right next to him spamming cities)

1300 or 1400, dont remember exactly. Qin(AI) Emperor/Marathon. In the same game both Stonehenge and The Wall were completed at 2500 BC, Oracle and ToA at about 2000 BC.

Yeah around 1400 or 1300s is the earliest I've seen as well. Typically 1000-500 bc though.

I've seen them go in 1600BC on Immortal which was a shock but 8 or 900 is not uncommon on this difficulty.

The earliest was 1800bc on monarch or emperor, can't remember.

I think a more interesting question is what's the latest you've seen them be available?

920ad, still available, on Emperor. Amazing.
http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/5748/civ4screenshot0009li0.th.jpg (http://img143.imageshack.us/my.php?image=civ4screenshot0009li0.jpg)

What do you think leads to those situations with long-unbuilt Pyramids, Henge, etc.?

I hate those situations, because you're sitting there thinking "Do I touch it? Don't I touch it? Do I touch it...?"

probably a combination of things lead to certain wonders being left late. The ai personality make up of your game certainly contributes, you'll see far more wonders drop early in games with HC or Ramesses or Louis than you will in games where you have a group of people who never build wonders ever.

on top of that, ai may not have the resources they need/want in order to make a wonder worth while for them, or they may have other things to do, like spam units for a huge war of some description.

Start a deity game, start Worldbuilder, give Ramesses a capitol with good food and a stone resource, as well as decent production. They'll go before 1000 BC, I'm sure.

I've had them built by an AI at around 900BC once (Monarch). I've also had them NOT built until way into the medieval ages. It does not seem to be a wonder that the AI is specifically targetting, such as the Great Lighthouse, ToA, Parthenon, SoZ etc. which always fall quickly. I get the feeling that the Pyramids are low on their priority list, and they only built them if they have nothing better to do (which, of course, can always be the case on your map).

Unless my strategy calls for the Pyramids specifically (in which case I'm prioritizing them myself and hardly ever get beaten to them), I ignore them UNLESS I pop a Great Engineer which is then used to built the mids. Probably there is no better use for an early (BC) GE, except for maybe lightbulbing towards Optics if you need that.

Ive seen them go in the 1000s BC, usually to montezuma when it does happen, man does he love the mids and police state. On another note the other day I was playing and the great library went at like 75 BC on emperor, I was very surprised and thought about taking a screenshot. The good thing is the guy was isolated and sputtered out after that.

I don't really know what's the earliest mids-build-year, but I have the impression that the AI doesn't prioritize them too much.
OTOH I saw them still beeing open very late; once I was 5 turns away from liberalism when they were built :eek:.

I've had them built by an AI at around 900BC once (Monarch). I've also had them NOT built until way into the medieval ages. It does not seem to be a wonder that the AI is specifically targetting, such as the Great Lighthouse, ToA, Parthenon, SoZ etc. which always fall quickly. I get the feeling that the Pyramids are low on their priority list, and they only built them if they have nothing better to do (which, of course, can always be the case on your map).

Unless my strategy calls for the Pyramids specifically (in which case I'm prioritizing them myself and hardly ever get beaten to them), I ignore them UNLESS I pop a Great Engineer which is then used to built the mids. Probably there is no better use for an early (BC) GE, except for maybe lightbulbing towards Optics if you need that.

Where do you get the engineer from? There are only 2 ways:

- Oracle slingshot, where you take MC from Oracle, prechop some forests in another city and chop/whip a forge, so you can run an engineer and pop GE, before the capital pop a prophet. This is risky, because you must finish the forge in time and you need a philosophical leader. Another downside is, that you use your forests and population for a very expensive building, that you don't need that early.

- pop MC from a hut

- Oracle slingshot, where you take MC from Oracle, prechop some forests in another city and chop/whip a forge, so you can run an engineer and pop GE, before the capital pop a prophet. This is risky, because you must finish the forge in time and you need a philosophical leader. Another downside is, that you use your forests and population for a very expensive building, that you don't need that early.
As an industrious civ, build the Forge and Oracle in the same city. Chance of getting the engineer is less than 50%, but it's certainly possible.

Chance of getting the engineer is less than 50%
if you build the forge in less than 9 turns (which isn't that hard with industrious leader) the chnace is even bigger than 50% ;)

True, but as industrious leader, you'll probably build the Pyramids. Of course, it still works for non industrious leaders as well. What I want to say is, that you cant pop the engineer just from nothing.

if you build the forge in less than 9 turns (which isn't that hard with industrious leader) the chnace is even bigger than 50% ;)

Each "source" is weighted equivalently when determining the GP type. So the fact that the Engineer specialist gives 3 points, and The Oracle only 2 doesn't matter.

Darrell

Each "source" is weighted equivalently when determining the GP type. So the fact that the Engineer specialist gives 3 points, and The Oracle only 2 doesn't matter.

Darrell

AFAIK it was so in vanilla, but it has been changed in BtS

I think a more interesting question is what's the latest you've seen them be available?

920ad, still available, on Emperor. Amazing.
http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/5748/civ4screenshot0009li0.th.jpg (http://img143.imageshack.us/my.php?image=civ4screenshot0009li0.jpg)

177668
Built by Catherine in 1285 AD! For me it was already faster to research constitution, and I was avoiding them. :lol:
It was an aggressive AI game with some interesting civs, check the minimap:
Shaka and Ragnar started in the southeast peninsula. Montezuma was to the southwest. Catherine and an OCC Justinian to the far east. Issabella and Me, Cyrus, in the center. Pericles was teching in the northwest peninsula behind a secure choke. The rest was constantly warring. Oh almost forgot Germany (Bismark I guess) between Me, Shaka, Montezuma, and Ragnar. He got dogpiled by the four of us.

Start a deity game, start Worldbuilder, give Ramesses a capitol with good food and a stone resource, as well as decent production. They'll go before 1000 BC, I'm sure.
Deity?? I happened to find that situation on Emperor (random map). Inca with Stone, mids at around 1250 BC. If this had been Deity he would have built them at 2000 BC or so (I can only guess).

For early mids check my first game post in silverbullet's Immortal University Charles thread. :)

What does MIDS stand for?

What does MIDS stand for?

The Pyramids

The Pyramids
Very clever, thanks!

Where do you get the engineer from? There are only 2 ways:

- Oracle slingshot, where you take MC from Oracle, prechop some forests in another city and chop/whip a forge, so you can run an engineer and pop GE, before the capital pop a prophet. This is risky, because you must finish the forge in time and you need a philosophical leader. Another downside is, that you use your forests and population for a very expensive building, that you don't need that early.

- pop MC from a hut

For those of us with Warlords (and I assume Vanilla, as well) the engineer comes from the Great Wall. This doesn't work in BTS as I think the Great Wall gives another GPP (Spy?).

in my current game the MIDS went win 1440BC or so. cant quite remember and cant really check as im at work.

Deity?? I happened to find that situation on Emperor (random map). Inca with Stone, mids at around 1250 BC. If this had been Deity he would have built them at 2000 BC or so (I can only guess).

The AI doesn't get any wonder-production-bonuses. The wonders cost them the same at every level from nobel to diety. Sure the deity AI gets some other bonuses that can help them get the mids (e.g. cheaper workers for faster choping), but the difference isn't actually that big.

I had one game where the mids were unbuilt after i launched the space ship (it was a bunch of warmongers with Agg AI turned on on a low production Archapellego) so I used my 1 city that got decent production (I think it was about 100 hammers on marothon with forge ironworks factory and moii with 2(!!!) hills) to build it for kicks. ended up being built in 1700 about

For those of us with Warlords (and I assume Vanilla, as well) the engineer comes from the Great Wall. This doesn't work in BTS as I think the Great Wall gives another GPP (Spy?).

There is no Great Wall in Vanilla - it was introduced in Warlords.

I've never seen the mids built as late as some of you have (and I don't often build them), but in one game I built the Hanging Gardens in 1734AD. That wonder is awesome when you have 20+ cities.

Actually, I don't think I've ever seen an AI build HG. It's usually a high priority for me though.

The AI just finished the Pyramids in my game in 2025BC. I wasn't going for them, so it isn't a big deal, but it is surprisingly early. I remembered this thread and I didn't see anyone mention an AI opponent finish the pyramids this early.

Settings: Huge map of the type 'Big and Small'. Immortal level, aggressive AI, epic game speed.