If you could start out with any (except Ind/Phil) tech combo and trait combo (ignoring UUs and UBs) what would it be and why?

NOTE: You can only pick one combination of techs and traits. Please don't say "this in this condition, that in that condition"

NOTE2: Let's say you are playing a Hemispheres map with a 50/50 chance of starting out on the coast or inland.

For techs, hunting and agriculture on a land map with non-coastal start, and fishing and mining on a water map or coastal start (with seafood, ofc).

For traits, spiritual, and either expansive on a water map or creative on a land map (creative as a generic choice).

and why?Oops, forgot that.

Spiritual is an obvious choice. On a water map, cheap granaries and harbors are great. On land, creative I think would be an obvious choice. I'm not adverse to building monuments, it's just for the land grab and cheap happy buildings (esp. theaters).

Hunting/agriculture are both pre-reqs for animal husbandry, and having both reduce its cost. Between agriculture and animal husbandry, you also can build most land based food improvements. Hunting is nice for maximizing hut(tech) pops. You're also building a worker first most likely, and will have time to research both mining and bronze working before finishing the worker and growing enough to start whipping.

Coastal starts and water maps won't benefit as much from this combination. Fishing and mining would be the best choice. Fishing to start the work boat, and mining to open up bronze working for immediate research. Sailing is also accessible, which is great for having your first cities instantly connected to the trade network, helping to offset their cost and increase the rex.

Spiritual/Expansive, Agriculture/Mining.

Expansive is the one i'm unsure of. Perhaps creative. Or Charismatic. AHHHHH

Mining and Agricultire (Fishing if expecting lots of water). SPI + FIN i guess... not really set on some particular traits.

I forgot to say that you have to say which combo irregardless of map. So you can't say "this in this condition, that in that condition". I'm trying to see what people think is flexible, etc. :)

Does except Ind/Phil mean except that combo, or except those individual traits? Because my choice would be Cha/Ind (De Gaulle) with Mysticism/Mining (India/Korea/Maya).

I love Charismatic, its my favourite trait for warmongering and the Industrious trait with Mysticism starting tech means an almost guaranteed Stone Henge for a huge early happy cap. As for Mining, I just like it because I very rarely don't go for Bronze Working right off the bat.

Can't pick ind/phil as a combo, you can pick them individually.

I'm trying to see what people think is flexible, etc. :)No idea of map settings at all? I guess specifying coastal vs non-coastal is pushing it, but archipelago vs continents or pangea might be known.

SPI/FIN and hunting/mining.

My fav starting tech combo is hunting/mining. I love the early scouting hunting provides and I hate popping barbs from huts. I like to know the map and where my enemies are asap. Mining because then after fishing/ag (depending on coastal or inland) I can go BW. Or, if I have a lot of forest I could go BW right away and hope for copper/nearby enemy.

Traits are more difficult. It seems like some are good for rushing/rexing but are not great for a coastal start and vice versa. It is hard imo to rush/rex from a coastal start for various reasons and GLH is preferred often in these situations. I'd have to say I have a lot of love for Creative. It's an outstanding support trait for rushing and rexing. Not so good on the coast though, so I want a trait that supports coastal starts. Industrious is great, but kind of is at odds with Creative (sorry Louis). Financial is good and with his UB Willem is a great choice, though he is not so great at rushing. If I had to settle on one, I'd say Organized because it at least helps getting GLH and is a good support trait for rushing/rexing as well.

I guess that lands me on Zara. Gonna have to play more games with him.

No idea of map settings at all? I guess specifying coastal vs non-coastal is pushing it, but archipelago vs continents or pangea might be known.

SPI/FIN and hunting/mining.

Let's say Hemispheres map with a 50/50 chance you get put on the coast or start inland.

Mining, Agriculture, Creative, Philosophical.

Darrell

Mining, Agriculture, Creative, Philosophical.

Darrell
Beat me to it :(

Org/Fin with mining/agri. Organized/financial is decent for either kind of economy (phil > financial for specialist) and fits well with a transition economy, which is the ideal way to play, as specialists don't work as well as cottage spam lategame when you can start buyrushing an army when research isn't as important. Mining/agri is nice because it opens up the two most important ancient age military techs, BW/AH. Early mines are also nice for production while early farms on any agri resources give you a growth advantage.

I used to think ag/min was best too, but now I prefer hunt to ag. You can research ag before your first worker is finished and hunt also contributes to opening up ah. Plus, the scouting afforded by hunting is excellent imo and you could even pop ag from a hut instead of barbs :)

Cre/Phil is an excellent combo imo, but there are some maps I find where a CE is really preferable (e.g., high jungle with lots of rivers and not a lot of surplus food).

Mining and agriculture too. I guess that's the concensus. As for trait combos... I can't decide between phil/fin and agg/org.

SPI/IND, and Ag + Mining.

Ramesses of China!

The "why" is:

IND for strong starts. It lets you establish a reasonable "Wonder Path" depending on your start (GLH, Oracle, Colossus for Coastal, GW, Oracle, Mids for large landmass with neighbors)

SPI is a super powerful late game trait that really comes into its own in later eras when that Anarchy is a killer. Especially since I tend to run a hybrid economy, and like to Rifle-Cannon opponents, SPI lets you swap those civics nice and smooth. In the early game, the 1 turn of anarchy isnt as punishing, but when it becomes 3+, it hurts.

Protective and Organized, Hunting and Agriculture

Organized for a large empire.

Protective do I don't have to worry about metals for a while if necessary.

Hunting for the scout and any camping resources.

Agriculture for food.

Both for the quickest path to Animal Husbandry.

Starting techs are short/immediate term while the traits are for the long haul.

Given your criteria I want a combo that allows me to play a military based game or a peace based game, depending on neighbors/map. I also want techs that are going to give me food ASAP and are 1 tech away from a potential miltary resource. All that said there is also another combo for my own style I would greatly prefer.

Best:

Agriculture/Mining
Agressive/Financial

Agriculture can be used ANYWHERE there is fresh water which I have rarely seen the first start NOT have. Mining opens up BW and allows immediate tech edge if your lucky enough to have a precious metal in the BFC. Ag is 1 tech from AH for edditional food and unlocking horses while mining is 1 turn from BW which unlocks copper and allows chopping

Agressive is the best warring tech and fast barracks can get you a very good defense fast. This is the best trait if a military approach is required/desired.

Financial gets a fast boost on coastal or land locked starts with the only drawback being a landlocked start next to a lake.

Preference:

Mysticism/Fishing

Industrious/Financial.

HC with Isabella's opening techs. Toss in the Quechuas and terraces and I am set! Very early protection in Quechuas, guarenteed early religion, free shot at early wonders.

Financial/charismatic
Wheel/agriculture (early pottery)

financial chrismatic. no doubts

mining agriculture

Traits - If I can't have Ind/Phi then I'll go for Fin/Phi. I like a hybrid economy, and there's no better trait combo for that.

Techs - Mining is an obvious choice, for quick access to Bronze working. Agriculture is the most reliable other option if I don't know the map type.

Ag/Mining

Charismatic/Creative {Another missing combo, with fantastic early game potential and flexibility}

Choosing with closed eyes to the map.....

Traits: Cha/Exp . Not your ordinary choose, I reckon.... but Cha gives extra :) along with a big warfare bonus and Exp gives extra health and cheap granaries ( good for the :whipped: ). Good combo for whpping units for warfare or to simply let the cities grow big.

Techs: Agri/fishing . again not conventional, but in the early game food is power, far more than hammers ( you can always whip ). Agri/fishing will allow you to have a improved food tile to work in 20 turns regardless of you start coastal or not.

In resume, GW of the Americans :p

Financial/Charismatic

The Wheel/Mining

You have the techs and traits for an early axe rush. If none is available, you also have the techs and traits for good peaceful growth.

How about be really creative. You get to pick your traits, your techs, and your UB and UU?

For at least some grins in that regards how about Charismatic/Protective, Hunting/Mining with Totem Poles and Skirmishers? Lots of synergy going on there with the UB giving an early happiness and boosting the early uncountered and trait boosted UU. Of course, if you have nobody to play with nearby this would be less fun.

Ag/Mining

Charismatic/Creative {Another missing combo, with fantastic early game potential and flexibility}

Just beat me to it. This is a great combo for an all out warfare SE. Immediate happiness bonus, cheap libraries for scientists, cheap colosseums and theatres for happiness. With stone, pyramids, and monuments, you could be at 10 happiness (monarch) by 1000 BC yielding the ability to double whip early for warfare.

The other reason I find the combo attractive is because it doesn't exist.

I'd choose hunting and mining for techs. Love having that initial scout, researching BW or Ag first, AH right around the corner.

And if you wind up isolated, start over. Even if not isolated, it's a bummer if no one is closeby but at least you can rex.

I'd of course prefer situational traits, but lacking those:

Techs: Agriculture, Fishing

Traits: Organized, Charismatic

AG and Fishing will let you build work boats when coastal, and early workers will almost always have something to do when not while you research other worker techs otherwise.

Of the warmonger traits, Charismatic is the most flexible, due to the early happiness and its bonus to ALL units produced. These things lend themselves to being useful anywhere.

Organized is interesting. I take it over financial because in the early game REX/early war phase, it actually tends to be stronger (especially if you REX a large area), and that's BEFORE you get courthouses. On top of this, it makes coastal games easier with its discounts to the lighthouse. It also has better synergy with warring than financial, since you can afford the otherwise costly civics pretty easily.

Edit: Expansive is probably equal to these for overall flexibility IMO, so I'm giving it honorable mention.

I'm still undecided on traits, especially the Financial trait.

Might try a game with a Financial leader soon.

I pick Elizabeth due to her synergey with her techs and triats.

Financial works everywhere. Philisophical works everywhere.

Fishing is a VERY underrated starting tech, particularly when combined with the financial trait. If you have a costal start, you get that all-important workboat out sooner. Coastal tiles, of course, have an extra gold with financial.

Conversely, If you have a land start, there is a high probability that you will have a lake nearby. You can work the lake tile immediately for 2f 3c which boosts your research quite a bit early on.

Mining allows you to research BW immediately if on a costal start, thus letting you know right away where you stand with regards to finding copper for military and letting you whip sooner (you have to do something with all that excess food from your fishing boat.)

Spiritual/Charismatic - great for peace, even better for war.

Fishing/Mining - agriculture can be finished by the time your worker is built, whereas the lack of fishing really hurts in a seafood start.

Not a lot of love for starting with hunting? I really like the early exploration to know what opening might be best.

Here are the totals so far:

Ag 14
Fish 4
Myst 1
Hunt 4
Wheel 2
Min 15

Fin 10
Phil 5
Ind 2
Cre 4
Spir 5
Org 4
Exp 2
Char 8
Prot 1
Imp
Agg 1

If we were to pick one to represent the community right now it would be Fin/Char Ag/Min. I'd say that is a pretty powerful setup.

Gotta jump on the mining/agg bandwagon. Mining means you can get to work on any gold/silver/gems plots from the beginning. Sometimes I even mine the grassland/hillpiggies in the beginning for a super tile that can build without slowing growth. Basically it becomes a plains cow. Also mining opens up masonry if I start with marble or stone in my BFC. Agg is always useful and is one of the most expensive starting techs. If I am playing a civ with those starting techs I usually go straight to BW.
Sorry FH but I have to list a third trait. the whel. You can always use more roads and it is expensive as well. Starting with both vs starting with hunting/mining is almost a free tech. Agg/wheel is exactly ONE beaker less than teching BW. If you have nothing to build a camp on and no bare hills, what exactly does your worker do? I usually play on marathon speed where it takes 24-30 turns to build a worker and 43 turns to research BW. I believe you play more on normal. so it will take you 15 more beakers to research bw and the wheel to connect it. And you still can't build a farm. The 45 beaker difference between hunting/mining and agg/wheel is most of the 59 beaker cost of hunting or fishing. Never underestimate the value of early beakers.

But i like mining nonetheless. Just not thrilled with getting a cheap tech like hunting.

The number one reason to take mining as a starting tech? BW FROM A HUT!!!

Not a lot of love for starting with hunting? I really like the early exploration to know what opening might be best.

You have better exploration and hut popping, but can not worker steal.

I would go with Agriculture/Mining, Charismatic/Financial.

Edit: Of those I'm sure off Mining and Charismatic, Hunting and Philosophy are contenders for the other two.

Techs: Agriculture + Mining
Resources: Corn + Gems

Traits: Who cares?

Hunting/Mining.

You start out with a Scout, and have a decent chance of popping BW or AH from a hut.

Cha/Exp is probably what I'd prefer for traits, extra happy/health in every city is too useful to pass up.

Financial and Aggressive

Mining and aggriculture.

Industrious/Expansive. Techs: Mining and Agriculture (most likely to have direct applications; worker stealing + choking > better scouting).

The traits provide pretty much the ultimate production setup - the worker discount gives a head start, cheap granaries and forges make for very efficient whipping everywhere and the capital can spam wonders for settled GPs.
I find the saved early hammers universally useful - I can use them for steady expansion, for a quick war or two or for peaceful infrastructure that more than compensates for not having a money-earning trait.

Somewhat off topic:

Some of the posters clearly or implicitely presume a close neighbour to rush or worker steal.... and that is not what hermit meant in the OP ( hemispheres does not mean that you have contact with another civ before astro, and even if you have, it may not be worthwhile to rush/worker steal ). Some of those combos would be clearly subpar in those conditions.

If we were to pick one to represent the community right now it would be Fin/Char Ag/Min. I'd say that is a pretty powerful setup.I sure as heck wouldn't be upset if a random start gave me that grouping.

I agree that Fishing is unappreciated. I've recently played a couple games as India, and it is just SO SAD to look at those clams and/or fish and not be able to use them to grab an early religion.

Having said that, I would say that Fishing/Agriculture would be my choice, but that is only because Financial is going to be one of my traits. With the extra commerce on the water tiles, I'll be set for quick research and almost certainly an abundance of food with any coastal start. AND, if I'm not on the coast, I can't imagine that I wouldn't be on a river with some sort of food and hopefully some precious metal in the area. My first research item will then either be to work some animals or to mine some gold. After the resources are on line, it is time for cottages.

I really don't know what second trait would be best. Creative is most excellent early in the game, but I think I'd take Industrious. That one just makes an impatient guy like me happy sometimes.

re: worker stealing. i haven't tried it out much in bts. my sense is that any war declaration prompts the ai to pump archers and that makes conquering more difficult. it is also hard to choke with only a single warrior (maybe i need more practice i guess). it also does depend on a (really) close neighbour and meanwhile what terrain have you really scouted if your warrior is over harassing an opponent? not much. plus if you pop barbs from a hut on the way to your opponent warrior = dead and you are screwed.

that is my take on it anyway

Some of the posters clearly or implicitely presume a close neighbour to rush or worker steal.... and that is not what hermit meant in the OP ( hemispheres does not mean that you have contact with another civ before astro, and even if you have, it may not be worthwhile to rush/worker steal ). Some of those combos would be clearly subpar in those conditions.


yes, i do want people to take into consideration any possible start when giving their answers.

Somewhat off topic:

Some of the posters clearly or implicitely presume a close neighbour to rush or worker steal.... and that is not what hermit meant in the OP ( hemispheres does not mean that you have contact with another civ before astro, and even if you have, it may not be worthwhile to rush/worker steal ). Some of those combos would be clearly subpar in those conditions.

Yes, if I knew I have a close neighbour to rush I would probably pick aggressive as one of the traits but if you find yourself isolated then one of your traits are basically doing nothing for half the game.

Charismatic/Creative with Hunting/Mining

Hunting/Mining for the reasons listed before and Char/Cre because it looks like it would be really powerful and I can't play it. Ya ya ya Stonehenge isn't as useful. Big deal, it would still be awesome to play. A lot of early game power with build or war versatility.

spi/cre, spi/phi, spi/fin, spi... whatever(this would be more or less the order - cre, phi, fin), just spiritual. Great for in/out slavery early on to avoid riot, slavery/caste later abit later, in/out on nationhood(playing marathon, so the globe city won't be draftable each turn), in/out slavery/emancipation(whip in newly conquered cities), in/out rep/us(to rush buy if you reach that late...)

mining/ag or mining/hunting(on marathon normally the worker will get out before you research anything, so chances are he'll just sit there 8-10 turns; with hunting you could get a 2nd scout out and really map everything around while you wait for bw supposing you get one of those crappy forested starts)

"crappy forested starts"?

only if your only food source is a plains cow i guess. but still i just chop, chop, chop workers and settlers. the capital ends up a production powerhouse (you can't really whip it of course because of low food) eventually. i actually don't mind those starts at all. if they have 2+ food specials they are awesome imo.

in my experience(fractal only), over 70% of those starts are food poor(as in many grassland plains, not necessarily lack of special food resources, which are worthless for such a long time time, and they're worthless in what is your main city for quite a while)

FIN/ORG, Mining and Fishing.

Coast (which likely comes with seafood) or lake gives me a nice 3:commerce: tile right away, river means early riverside cottages (Pottery is open from the start) for a similarly good tile which will improve later on.

Mining opens up Masonry if I have marble, otherwise BW for chops. Either way I have a decent shot at Oracle with COL slingshot, and even if I don't get Oracle the :gold: lets me run my solid early economy at 100%:science: and I'll likely pick up the religion anyway. Plus the cheaper courthouses are easier to whip in new or captured cities. I will likely go after a nearby opponent once the early expansion phase is over, especially if I have iron or elephants.

@OP - Do we get to assume some water (fresh or otherwise) in our start location? I'm not familiar with the Hemispheres map, so I don't know if it is balanced in this regard.

FIN + AGG, Agriculture (land) / Fishing (sea) + Mining

Fast cottages, good food, high income to sustain rapid military expansion. Unbeatable.

Fin/Cre

So Willem.

Fishing/Mining

I hate having to research fishing first if stuck on the shore to start, always makes growth feel that much slower. This would suck a bit if the only food was AH based but otherwise BW first if coastal and Agr first if not. Fishing/Agr is also very nice, once again Willem.

I'd go SPI / CRE + Agriculture and The Wheel.

Spiritual just plain kicks ass. I'm a big fan of swapping civics all the time, and it's also handy for diplomacy. Creative allows me to block out land with ease, lets new cities focus on growth and infrastructure asap rather than getting that first border pop, and cheap Libraries / Theatres / Coliseums are quite nice to have. The cheap libraries have a synergy with Agri + Wheel since they help unlock writing early (just need AH).

Agriculture I like because there's almost always a farmable resource nearby, and if not there's bound to be some tiles worthy of farming to get my capital growing to the happy cap asap. Wheel because I like having not having to spend beakers researching it, and I find it has a bit of synergy with Creatives border pops (earlier resource access via border pops works pretty well with early roads).

Thankfully there's already a civ with this exact combo (and War Chariots to boot!) Go Hatty!! (Note: Ramessess with his Spi / Ind + Agri / Wheel was a very close second).

re: worker stealing. i haven't tried it out much in bts. my sense is that any war declaration prompts the ai to pump archers and that makes conquering more difficult.

This is in fact exactly what you WANT. Fortify your Woodsman II warrior on a forested hill outside their city. (Or on a forest across a river.) The AI will then protect his/her capitol with four archers and then build another worker, which you can steal again because the AI does not seem to count on warriors being able to move two spaces. (I usually get three workers from a Woodsman II warrior.) Eventually you will have two or three cities rapidly being improved by free workers while your opponent only has their single unimproved capitol. Meanwhile you can rush your other rivals.

Fishing vs Mining is an argument of consistency versus maximal use. You don't get as many seafood starts as you think you do due to the fact that you really remember the times when you have fish or clams and can't work them right away. If you want to avoid the disaster of not having any good food tiles available to be worked by a worker then Fishing in the correct choice. But if you are willing to accept the occasional bad start and get better average results, then Mining/Agriculture is better.

This is in fact exactly what you WANT. Fortify your Woodsman II warrior on a forested hill outside their city. (Or on a forest across a river.) The AI will then protect his/her capitol with four archers and then build another worker, which you can steal again because the AI does not seem to count on warriors being able to move two spaces. (I usually get three workers from a Woodsman II warrior.) Eventually you will have two or three cities rapidly being improved by free workers while your opponent only has their single unimproved capitol. Meanwhile you can rush your other rivals.

Haha that's brilliant :lol:
One thing though - why do you assume that you're going to have a Woodsman II warrior? Surely you're relying on him to survive a battle or two (which you can't count on with warriors) or you trained it under Theo or Vassalage (which is just silly)? Unless there's something in BTS that makes this easier (I'm on Vanilla).

Re: fishing vs mining - I'd pick both rather than one with Agriculture. You can research Ag before your first worker comes out if you find you need it.

The AI will then protect his/her capitol with four archers and then build another worker, which you can steal again because the AI does not seem to count on warriors being able to move two spaces.The AI can't handle this. It wasn't programmed to.

Which is why some players frown upon it. I now count myself amongst them.

If you want to avoid the disaster of not having any good food tiles available to be worked by a worker then Fishing in the correct choice. But if you are willing to accept the occasional bad start and get better average results, then Mining/Agriculture is better.
Fishing is very quick to tech. If you are coastal with seafood, you can easily build a warrior while teching Fishing and lose very little time working your seafood both unimproved and improved. This especially holds if you start with Bronze Working, because you can tech Fishing - Bronze Working while building Warrior - Work Boat and working commerce tiles and whip out your first (and possibly second) Work Boat. Mining alone is key in this regards because it enables the research of Bronze Working right away. No other tech unlocks a tech of that level of importance.

However, I still prefer The Wheel to Agriculture for the exact same "flexibility" that you claim Mining/Agriculture has. You start with two techs that are immediately useful regardless of your surrounding terrain, and can tailor your research around your land more easily. If you are coastal you can tech Fishing - Bronze Working - .... while building Warrior - Work Boat - ...

If you are inland with grains, you can tech Agriculture - Bronze Working - ... while building Worker - Warrior.

Inland without grains is a pain for this tech start. Animal Husbandry is two techs away but in general, I would guess that it would be best to go Bronze Working - some path to Animal Husbandry that fits your general surroundings to allow your workers to start chopping forests for you.

One thing though - why do you assume that you're going to have a Woodsman II warrior? Surely you're relying on him to survive a battle or two (which you can't count on with warriors) or you trained it under Theo or Vassalage (which is just silly)?

You can easily get enough XP from fighting animals. Just stick to hills and forests with your warrior and you should be OK. The only thing that causes problems are bears. God I hate bears.

The AI can't handle this. It wasn't programmed to.

Which is why some players frown upon it. I now count myself amongst them.

It is clearly unbalanced, but so are Quechuas and the Apostolic Palace. Given the fact Quechua rushes can obliterate several opponents in the beginning of the game with only warriors, I see no reason crippling a single opponent with the same shouldn't be allowed.


Inland without grains is a pain for this tech start. Animal Husbandry is two techs away but in general, I would guess that it would be best to go Bronze Working - some path to Animal Husbandry that fits your general surroundings to allow your workers to start chopping forests for you.

This is precisely the problem with starting without agriculture. Starts with pigs, cow and sheep are just as common as starts with seafood, but their tech is two techs away instead of one. It will be a very long time before you can start working that awesome 6 food pig tile if you have to research both agriculture and animal husbandry.

It is clearly unbalanced, but so are Quechuas and the Apostolic Palace. Given the fact Quechua rushes can obliterate several opponents in the beginning of the game with only warriors, I see no reason crippling a single opponent with the same shouldn't be allowed.Other imbalanced features cannot be used to justify employing a cheap tactic.

Also, choking is a bit different from a Quechua rush. The difference lies in the AI's inability to handle a choke as well as a human player would. The choke has no more purpose than to exploit this weak characteristic of the AI.

A Quechua rush does not presume that you choke the AI, only that you amass an army of Quechuas and rush the AI's cities.

I'm not a fan of the warrior choke idea. I guess that's another reason I love starting with hunting.

Just beat me to it. This is a great combo for an all out warfare SE. Immediate happiness bonus, cheap libraries for scientists, cheap colosseums and theatres for happiness. With stone, pyramids, and monuments, you could be at 10 happiness (monarch) by 1000 BC yielding the ability to double whip early for warfare.

The other reason I find the combo attractive is because it doesn't exist.

I'd choose hunting and mining for techs. Love having that initial scout, researching BW or Ag first, AH right around the corner.

And if you wind up isolated, start over. Even if not isolated, it's a bummer if no one is closeby but at least you can rex.

My feelings exactly. I'm not positive if I'd prefer Mining/Hunting or Mining/Agriculture, but I think I'd be happy with either.

Hunting probably gets better the higher the difficulty level. Chance of popping barbs from a hut with a warrior goes up, and if you strike out on Copper you can still go directly to Animal Husbandry (Ag or Hunting works) and if you strike out there you can go directly to Archery.

I'm always slightly frustrated when playing Kublai Khan that he's an aggressive leader with a mounted UU/UB. If he were charismatic it would all work so well.

That, or a totally new leader/civ with those traits and techs. :)

Other imbalanced features cannot be used to justify employing a cheap tactic.

Also, choking is a bit different from a Quechua rush. The difference lies in the AI's inability to handle a choke as well as a human player would. The choke has no more purpose than to exploit this weak characteristic of the AI.

A Quechua rush does not presume that you choke the AI, only that you amass an army of Quechuas and rush the AI's cities.

But what difference does the cause really matter if the effect of a Quechua rush is stronger? The AI is also incapable of defending itself against super early rushes, masses of siege weapons and Praetorians. Are they therefore not acceptable?

I don't have a problem with people who eschew all types of cheap tactics. I just disagree that a Quechua, Immortal or Praetorian rush is any better than cheap tactics such as worker theft.

Most people agree that quechua's and praets are imbalanced and some avoid using them for those reasons. Immortals can be imbalanced, but if the opponent gets spears they are not as powerful as say war chariots. Also, immortals/war chariots are hit and miss because you don't always have horses and/or a close neighbour.

Any two from financial, philosophical, and spiritual. For techs undoubtably aggriculture and mining. Fishing is super cheap and isn't always immediately useful (roads would be my third choice if only to give my first worker something to do.) I usually don't bother with hunting for a while unless I have deer or elephants or beavers. I appeciate the value of the scouts, but it always seems like im building a bunch of warriors in order to grow my cities that can scout rather than sit around and cost maintenance.

Expansive/Creative

Cheap buildings, cheap whipped workers (I build a lot more workers than Settlers), settle wherever you want and claim resources easily.

As for Starting Techs, I'd have to say Biology and Environmentalism. :)

How about Fiber Optics. Build the Internet and you're sorted for technology for the rest of the game.

The second, how about Communism. State Property means no distance maintenance, I smell city spam.

Traits for this, Financial and Organised are not needed, there is no need to research anything and maintenance will be low.

I'm thinking Charismatic for warmongering and vertical growth, horizontal growth is covered with Communism.

Spiritual allows great flexibility, so that too.

On a more reasonable note, I like Mining/Agriculture for starting techs with Charasmatic and Financial/Philosophical.

Traits: financial (cottages) and industrious (wonders)
Techs: mining (BW) and mysticism (religions)

Financial and Industrious for sure. Techs I would have to say Agriculture and Mining

On warrior vs scout starts and worker stealing:

When I stated that scouts can't steal workers, I had flexibility in mind. The situations where opposing scouts can beat you to huts are generally the same situations you have a decent shot at sniping their workers (not always but often enough), and barring a powerful tech from the hut, a stolen worker is superior. Of course, if you're isolated you can just make a scout later.

The other major problem with hunting is that resources it allows are rarely in an initial BFC, making it limit worker utility early depending on the other tech (combo of mysticism/hunting can really hurt sometimes).

On choking:

Generally I shake my head at players who consider a choke "cheap". Sirlin.net discussions aside, the AI gets 90876340987 bonuses at high levels to begin with. If one is to label chokes cheap, then you might as well label war bribes/religious manipulation cheap, along with a ton of other strategies. I prefer NOT playing with my hands tied, honestly.

I'd also like to point out that choking in the wrong situations can be extremely counter productive. Here's a couple reasons it's more balanced than people think:

1. The AI you choke will tend to hate you. No OB, no early trade routes with them, no tech trades, etc.
2. How many AIs do you intend to choke? It gets costly to choke multiple AI's, but starting with difficulties higher than noble (and especially monarch on), choking one AI tends to let a different computer REX out a large share of that land. You might eventually take the choked city, at the expense of creating a fairly monstrous AI nearby. For this reason, the power of a choke and its benefit to the human player varies considerably depending on the situation.
3. Unless you're playing without barbs, the worker stolen has to be escorted home typically. Virusmonster noted this as a problem in his really high score walkthrough and disabled them. Basically, if you steal the worker and want it back at your capitol ASAP, it may be hard to choke the AI.
4. While the AI will spam archers like no tomorrow, it WILL eventually send a settler with escorted archers out, meaning to wipe the sucker out you'll probably have to take multiple cities.
5. Realistically, to make use of a choke to actually wipe out the AI will require the construction tech, which means you're going to have to reinforce the choke and balance the excess costs of units outside the border with research, all the while being handicapped a bit since an otherwise potentially peaceful neighbor is at war with you.

These things make the effectiveness of a choke highly situational.

It's so ridiculous that it's considered cheap. "The AI isn't programmed to handle it". Hah. The AI isn't "programmed to handle" human tactics in general in civ 4, that's why it gets such insane bonuses to compensate.

What's next, calling parking your siege/CR SoD outside of a city instead of in, inviting the AI stack to capture it and then wiping it out with ease cheap? The AI certainly doesn't seem to be programmed to handle a tactic that can potentially allow a 4-1 kill ratio at tech parity. That can be a lot more game breaking than some choke, too. At this rate you could make a case that few people go through a game without doing something "cheap".

That's why I hate hearing that word in games, at all, ever. Some things might not be balanced correctly, but I'd say having prats or quechas is a much greater advantage than the ones afforded via chokes in many situations, making the argument that "choking" is cheap but playing inca/rome somehow isn't seem ridiculous.

Edit: All this and I never even mentioned some other points about chokes: your starting warrior has to live (which is not a guarantee, even if you're careful), the enemy has to be reasonably close, and you have to actually bump into enough animals/xp hut to hit lvl 2. That's a lot of ifs.

The AI also has to have enough forests so that you can actually reach the worker when it moves. This is not true for 100% of starts, and in some rare scenarios you may not even be able to scout this ahead of time.

Finally, while a woodsman II warrior is decent against archers, it's not 100%. On high levels the AI has access to some decent bonuses and will spam archers with alarming ease, improvements or not (and pillaging flatland resources next to the AI capitol will generally get you killed). If all you're using to choke is that one warrior, the AI will eventually attack it with 3 archers or so, and woodsman II still leaves a warrior behind an archer until you count fortification bonuses. 2 archers will win almost every time. Certain AI's will attack the choke more aggressively than others (aka shaka and such), meaning you'll have to sell out to hold it. As I already mentioned, this comes with some potential expenses...

For these reasons, I steal workers fairly often, but only rarely commit to a choke.

Hunting/Wheel

Agg/Imp

Early beeline to AH and horse back riding means horse archers around 2000bc on marathon even sitting bull cannot survive this.

Very good post TheMeInTeam, I agree with most if not all of your points. I think any tactic is fair and as long as I can do something in game I consider it valid. I still use bhuric's patch since those changes are not intent as modifications to the rules of the original game, just fixes.

Also regarding worker stealing, it might very well be that this is a tactic I've not become sufficiently proficient in to pull off but I have to say playing on Immortal as I am right now I haven't been in a game yet where I even considered doing it, I've always felt the cost is too high. Is it even used on the higher levels? Do deity players steal workers? As I said I'm not very familiar with it but it would be interesting to know some of the expert's opinions on it.

Since coastal start was given at 50% odds and rivers aren't garanteed either, agriculture and fishing become poor choices.
Iincidently, I nearly ALWAYS get a good coastal starting location on hemispere or continent maps, normal size, 6 to 9 opponents, but nevermind.

mining is easy: it leads to BW
hunting is nearly always beneficial, so I'll take that too.

The traits are a no-brainer.

mining/hunting/financial/charisma

Hunting and mining, Creative and Charismatic.

Why: Hunting and mining means agriculture, animal husbandry or bronze working are all within one research choice (I really hate having pigs in my fat cross, and nog being able to work them unless I research 2 techs). Also, I like to start with a scout.

Creative: cheap libs, early culture.

Charismatic: for everything that charismatic does.

Very good post TheMeInTeam, I agree with most if not all of your points. I think any tactic is fair and as long as I can do something in game I consider it valid. I still use bhuric's patch since those changes are not intent as modifications to the rules of the original game, just fixes.

Also regarding worker stealing, it might very well be that this is a tactic I've not become sufficiently proficient in to pull off but I have to say playing on Immortal as I am right now I haven't been in a game yet where I even considered doing it, I've always felt the cost is too high. Is it even used on the higher levels? Do deity players steal workers? As I said I'm not very familiar with it but it would be interesting to know some of the expert's opinions on it.

When DaveMCW did obsolete's "financial trait with 8 cities wonderspam" game over, instead using a CE, one of his early moves was to steal a worker and choke. Of course, he had Quechas :).

IIRC I've seen obsolete snipe workers in other games too, and I myself will do it although I only play emperor.

I'd imagine it's a little more situational on immortal, but doing this could slow down and opponent from REXing into your resources. If you intended to kill them anyway, you might as well take some workers. It's especially fun if you can get peace, because the AI will often make another one and start improving in the same spot you stole the last one :lol:.

I'd imagine this would get QUITE hard on deity, and chokes would of course be just about impossible there since the AI gets 2 cities to start with.

The AI handles many things badly, but there is no elegant solution.

If I refrain from stealing workers/camping, this renders the AI practically immune from early harassment... which is a legitimate tactic in itself.
The AI tends to focus their attacks on a single city... whether I turn it into a fortress or let them capture it and waste their troops with CR siege, I'm always benefiting from their predictability.
Don't even let me get started on diplomacy...

This sort of thing isn't a big problem really. While I'd actually like to see some warmongering AI steal workers, execute a super-fast rush etc, this would create many unwinnable games.
Judging from the complaints about 'unbalanced' barbarian uprisings, most players don't like these.

I won't go out of my way to exploit AI stupidity (e.g. no founding a corporation only to spread to an AI and watch it cripple itself), but things that happen during normal gameplay... happen.
Even a mediocre player is heaps better than the AI, only some don't realise it:
With 9 AI opponents, winning 1 out of 10 games would make one equal to the average AI. Many players who never went above Noble could probably win 1 out of 10 Emperor game.

How about Fiber Optics. Build the Internet and you're sorted for technology for the rest of the game.

The second, how about Communism. State Property means no distance maintenance, I smell city spam.

Traits for this, Financial and Organised are not needed, there is no need to research anything and maintenance will be low.

.

Ok, you spend 5000 hammers on the internet and I will spend 5000 hammers on axemen.

Ok, you spend 5000 hammers on the internet and I will spend 5000 hammers on axemen.

I'd rather draft with Nationalism and Robotics.

I'd rather draft with Nationalism and Robotics.

not terribly usefull without gunpowder / rifling is it? Or is it buildable anyways as those are prereqs for robotics? Assuming riflemen aren't draftable without gunpowder i would go for gunpowder and nationalism, if riflemen are buildable without gunpowder then rifling + nationalism. Getting size 8 cities can be rough...


To be serious though financial / creative and mining / agriculture.

Mining+Agriculture: give food+production, the two most important things early game, and generally farmable food sources are more common. In BtS you're almost guaranteed fresh water as well.
Organised+Expansive: if you're coastal, you get cheap harbours/lighthouses. If you're inland, you still get great benefit from cheap courthouses/granaries. The cheap courthouses are important if you want to landgrab/go for war after CoL. Philosophical is a good choice if you can leverage it since GPs can help you get out of a lot of situations but I can't so I won't include it.

You need rifling to draft the mechanized infantry (or even infantry units).

So if you are going for the drafting of uber units, it would be nationalism and rifling.

The combo I'd most like to start with would be pro/org with hunting and... Fishing or agriculture - either would make me happy. Of COURSE they left pro/org out of the bloody game :p

I'd rather draft with Nationalism and Robotics.
You know you need rifling for Mechs, don't you? ;)

Well the activity has slowed down on this thread so I think I am going to declare Charismatic/Financial and Agriculture/Mining the winners :D Anyone want to go play some Hannibal of China games? ;)