Regarding the map: would the Scenario group be interested in a map like this (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6799308&postcount=11)? I can describe it here in greater detail, if you'd like.

I like! :thumbsup:

Regarding the map: would the Scenario group be interested in a map like this (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6799308&postcount=11)? I can describe it here in greater detail, if you'd like.I like it a lot. The idea of a crescent moon is nice. Very Meliés!

I hate to suggest what would basically be a restart to your work, but how about this:

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/4849/lostworldsschemahh2.png

The proportions don't have to be the same. One advantage is that travel between the planets is then possible. Maybe the underworld could have a roundish bulge in the middle with larger "caverns" for Agartha. Venus I imagine to be very humid & full of jungles. Also lots & lots of seas. To distinguish Pellucidar, give it greater variety of terrain.

The idea of a crescent moon is nice. Very Meliés! And very victorian. I was looking for a way to keep it from just being bands of terrain, and this idea presented itself. I even made a backstory, that the tribes of the moon could only live within the small "terminus" band where they wouldn't get either the full sun or total dark. But really, I just wanted to do a man in the moon.

To distinguish Pellucidar, give it greater variety of terrain. Every terrain on the map is different. Here are some closer screen shots:

Mars
http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/7269/marsscreenea2.jpg


The Moon:

http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/9272/moonscreenby6.jpg


Atlantis:

http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/269/atlantisscreentu7.jpg


And Pellucidar:

http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/6218/pellucidarscreenkv4.jpg


Mars features terrain and cities from Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri that I found online. I made the mountains of Mars and the Moon myself. The moon's irrigation is made from a Sim City set. Pellucidar isn't finished yet, but features prehistoric trees to go with the Dinosaurs. The Maps of Pellucidar and Barsoom are from the Barsoom Glossary (http://erblist.com/abg/index.html).

Blue Monkey, I considered the idea of including Venus, but frankly, we're out of terrain on this one, and besides this took me better than two weeks to make, and I have to get on to making Asian trees for a friend once I get the bugs out of this one.

One more thing: I've envisioned that each layer would have two competing civs: Mars has Orovars and Tharks, The Moon has Selenites and Ugas. England has the English and Scots, the Underworld has Atlanteans (Atlantans?) and an underground race. Finally, Pellucidar has the Sagoths and the Mahars (Dinosaurs, Great Apes, Sabertooth tigers, etc). 10 civs on a 160 x 350 map.

This map deserves its own thread within the SteamPunk Scenario forum. If I understood Flamand & embryodead properly, you had to hexedit each individual tile where you wanted the "peculiar" terrain. I once asked Plotinus to create a new thread out of a section of another, so I know it would be possible to move the posts already made.

As far as the underground race - how about Bulwer-Lytton's Vril (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vril) or else Agartha (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agartha) (which could use many of the interesting Asian units available).

Venus would be possible, using a mix of the terrains you've already made. But I understand your reluctance to rebuild such a gem as you've created. On the subject of Venus: Burroughs made a series about Amtor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus_series) to complement his Barsoom. Maps are available for it, as well (http://www.erbzine.com/mag14/1494.html).

Wow! It looks amazing close-up!

This map deserves its own thread within the SteamPunk Scenario forum.I once asked Plotinus to create a new thread out of a section of another, so I know it would be possible to move the posts already made. That would, in my opinion, be entirely up to King Arthur. This is his scenario group and he makes the call. As of yet, we haven't heard if he even likes this map, or if I've just screwed up weeks of his own work. I would, of course be pleased to have anyone work on this as a scenario or sub-scenario, and will appreciate input from everyone. It seems to me that once the tech tree and units are established, it could be applied to many adventures.

If I understood Flamand & embryodead properly, you had to hexedit each individual tile where you wanted the "peculiar" terrain. Actually I ended up not doing that. I need to learn more about that process before actually trying it. I did this all with existing terrain, modifying the pcx's as needed.

As far as the underground race - how about Bulwer-Lytton's Vril (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vril) or else Agartha (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agartha) (which could use many of the interesting Asian units available). I think the Vril are perfect for what I had in mind, as they would be in the same culture group as the Atlanteans. Great suggestion.

Venus would be possible, using a mix of the terrains you've already made. But I understand your reluctance to rebuild such a gem as you've created. On the subject of Venus: Burroughs made a series about Amtor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus_series) to complement his Barsoom. Maps are available for it, as well (http://www.erbzine.com/mag14/1494.html). I was aware of Amtor before I began, but as I said, couldn't see how I could do it justice with the terrain I had to work with. Of course there's always a possibility of doing Amtor in the future.

I had been wrestling with how to make a "Lost Worlds" map. The Hollow Earth, but also Lemuria, Kong Island, & other exotic places that could be fit into a SteamPunk mod. Your map got me sweating with creative excitement. If you won't feel plagiarized, when I get time (months from now, probably) I'd like to riff on some of your ideas (like the crescent moon) & make my own stab at making a map along the lines of the diagram I posted above. I was already thinking of going in a slightly different direction with the terrain - Rhye's Underworld Terrain, for example, with Tsuga's additions (if they can be recovered).

Wow! It looks amazing close-up!

Thank you Virote. Here's more:

England
http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/1807/englandscreenky5.jpg


Scotland

http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/559/scotlandscreenao4.jpg


Using Varwnos' English cities of course. I'm torn whether to connect the English and Scottish cities by road and rail, or to leave that for the player to do.

Blue Monkey, I always say that everyone is welcome to mod my work beyond recognition if they'd like. That's why I post it here. As far as posting this, it will be a few days yet before I have the initial bugs out.
Then I'll post it sans units, tech tree or anything other than terrain modifications. The ball will then be in everyone else's court (not that I don't have alot of suggestions. . . ) Let me know if you find Tsunga's stuff.

Let me know if you find Tsunga's stuff.I think I've got the mushrooms. I also PMed and posted a request in the thread in case someone else has them.

Ok, last screenshots of the map showing a Vril city and Vril resource, and Asteroid Field.

Vril:

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/4283/vrilscreenpk9.jpg

Asteroids:

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/479/asteroidsscreenjt5.jpg


Tsuga's (not Tsunga - my bad) mushrooms would be a resource like the Vril, I would think.. .

Balthasar, just got your PM and decided to drop by before turning in for the night. Now looks like I will be kept awake all night jotting down ideas that will pop into my head from your inspirational work.

I've got to say that the moon terrain is very striking (beautiful).The concept overall is very imaginative and could make for a really original scenario.

How did you get so many looks from a limited terrain set?

Some suggestions
I like Blue's idea of including different planets covering the corners of the map but don't rework the map if it's too tricky. If you do go for that then Pellucidar and the Underground should be sealed off from outer space though by impassable land terrain so that you can only get there via Earth.

I would also suggest that England and Scotland be replaced by a representation of the World so we can incorporate more competing civs there (Nation States and Natives). It needn't be too large as 3 civs at least would be all that's needed: Europeans, Indiginous Tribes and Ancient Powers (Siam, China, India etc). Or alternatively bring in The Secret Evil Society from the original Steampunk mod idea.

I'm thinking a bit about the mechanics of the map in terms of gameplay. Obviously travel between the regions will be restricted to water-going transportation - I take it you use coast,sea and ocean tiles? If so travel can easily be separated by flagging units as Sink in Sea or Sink in Ocean. An initial plan would be that Travel Between Earth and the Moon & Mars is Oceanic Travel via spacecraft units. Travel Between Earth and Underworld (Sea Travel via submarine or tunneling machine). Underground and Pellucidar are contiguous regions but involve normal "water" travel.

The only downside is that one must come before the other i.e. Sea therefore we get contact between Earth and the Underworld before contact with outer space. This seems logical though. Also, any ocean going vessel will be able to travel between regions separated by sea - guess this is acceptable since ocean going craft are deemed to be more advanced. This is really exciting.

As for civs I like your suggestions and BM's but you should also include Xexots (akin to one of Earth's Bronze Age cultures) and Korsars (Corsairs/Pirates) in the Lost World.

If you're all in favour I can start thinking about designing some tech trees for this scenario and planning out unit lines etc. I think each culture group (region) should have specific tech trees for maximum flavour and replay factor.

Found it on my backup device.

I have Rhye's original files and another file called 'shroom crops' (mushroom irrigation). Just whistle if you need them.

with Balthasar's "go-ahead" I've been working out ideas for the "planets" version of a "lost worlds" map. This is so rough I wouldn't even call it a "proof of concept" yet. The posted image is 50% scale of what I'm actually working with.
thumbnail
http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/5822/lostworlds021postph6.th.jpg (http://img179.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lostworlds021postph6.jpg)

The outliers are Barsoom, Luna, Amtor, & Mongo (for lack of another inspiration). On Earth the ellipse represents the underworld portion of the map & the bottom is Pellucidar. Proportions aren't finalized yet. The ellipse will probably get shifted south,; shrinking Pellucidar & leaving more room for the "surface" map. I'm also considering enlarging the planets relative to earth. But I want the Earth civilizations to predominate. It seems like the planets will have 1-2 civs each, so their available settlement area ought to be about the same as what 1-2 Earth civs would have access to.

Thanks, KA, for reminding me that Pellucidar is completely enclosed - sparking an idea for the Earth's surface. I envision a sort of world ocean encircling the outside of the lower hemisphere. The onion layer being roughly - a 1 - 2 tile band of sea + 1 tile of coast + impassable layer. There can be small valleys & bays with more varied terrain - room for Kong Island or Lemuria, for example.

My plan for dealing with aetheric flight is to use the Space + Seas LM solution outlined by Flamand & embryodead (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=273899). If I can cope with embryodead's method, there will be additional LM terrains to give the planets their own unique look, even though terrain values may be fairly standard.
While I envision the overall map to approach the maximum (362 x 362) I think it won't be too unwieldy. Earth's water bodies can be limited to coast/sea - then the planets won't be linkable by harbors. Hopefully that will avoid the "searching for trade routes" lag time. & ships that try to fly will fall off the edge of the earth & disappear (:lol:). Later in the tech tree there can be "spaceports".

I hope some others, like Hikaro, will comment on this as a direction to move the mod towards.

I really think the maps ought to have their own thread. King Arthur can contact one of the mods, like Plotinus, about the possibility of shifting the relevant posts.

EDIT: posted updated image to show Pellucidar. Whole underworld region (brown) has been shifted south as I discussed above. Magenta shows South Pole entrance to Hollow Earth. Green blob is possible location (but not shape) of Agartha.

This is all really great! :goodjob:

I also think I know how Balthasar has made the terrain look completely different for each area- with a little bit of trickery, and a lot of (I asume ;)) pain-in-the-arse c'n'p work, so, for example, the tundra->coast files will all show space terrain, whereas the grassland->coast will retain the original coast look! (Which I would never have the patience to do :))

This is our spot dedicated to map creation.

Post map ideas, images, game graphics (eg. terrain), works in progress etc here.

Mongo is as good a Planet X as anything and any mod is certainly improved by featuring camp aliens :D

I'm glad you will make it 362x362. 2 civs at least per region to make things competitive before you can travel to other regions.

I've PMd Sir Plot to ask him to move all map related posts to the new Map Creation Thread.

BM- did you miss the Tsuga graphics I uploaded on post 25? - 0 views since I posted them.

Cheers

I've finally posted the map here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=9452).

Virote, you're right. And it is a pain in the ass, but it comes out pretty.

"I approve!" -Ming

Making a usable world map that fits into this schema is pretty mind bending.

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/9454/lostworldsschema25rq8.png


Manipulations from basic projection:

North Polar Sea & North Atlantic distorted to flatten map
Shrank Africa & South America
South America, Africa, & Australasia are rotated relative to the central regions
Europe is enlarged - I'm tempted to enlarge England even further, & maybe Japan


What I like about it -

Industrial nations remain relatively close
Relative sizes reflect Victorian mind-set & relative world power
Expanded Atlantic/Pacific space allows for "lost islands"



But I'm not happy with it. Hopefully someone will suggest something ripping good. Preferably with a sketch.

BM - That's a difficult task considering the shape you have to play with. Here's a very handy site http://www.geometrie.tuwien.ac.at/karto/norm0005.html
where you can look at lots of different projections and tweak them. I'm quite fond of the top-down polar one #13 but it cuts out a lot of Africa and S America

Thanks for the link. As for the projection, I was already thinking of compressing S. America & Africa.

Speaking as a drooling-waiting-fan, I'd like to see 2 basic maps: a random/huge (I love the unpredictability of the resource and terrain distribution) and a Mars-like world.

The way I see it we have 3 ways forward: 1) a world map as per the original idea; 2) a scenario involving Balthasar's map and 3) a scenario involving Blue's expanded map with full Earth map and more planets. How best to proceed? It's not feasable to deal with all 3at once. Personally, I feel we should develop Balthasar's first. When Blue's map is ready it might be possible to port most of the tech tree. What do the rest of you think?

What do the rest of you think?

I don't understand that map. Would we have 3 maps at the same time!? :crazyeye::blush:

I vote for an earth map first; then the other two maps could probably be added with the trick of a separate tech line for the "outre" civs + the space related techs for Earth. Speaking for myself, if the "straight" version already existed, I'd be tempted to give it a go as far as trying an adaptation myself. Sort of a "Return of the Son of SteamPunk Rides Again!".

I don't understand that map. Would we have 3 maps at the same time!? :crazyeye::blush:

Jlvfr, I would be glad to explain anything you want to know about my map. It's intended to give the widest possible experience in a steampunk scenario: Martian maidens, undersea monsters, moonmen, molemen and dinosaurs. The concept has been used in other steampunk forums, in particular the popular Space:1889 web group, but also others. It could be fun, and I hope I get to see it fleshed out.

There is no conflict: there are plenty of earth maps, my map is ready for modding, and Blue Monkey's map isn't ready; if and when it's done, it would duplicate (upgrade from?) my map for the most part, adding mostly new races (of Venus).

In the end, since this is his group, it's King Arthur's decision which map he'd like to work on (it's good to be the King), so I support whatever he wants, and stand ready to help in any way I can.

The tech tree for human races has to be done first for any of these maps anyway, and the tech icons have been lovingly finished by Blue Monkey. I move we adjourn to the technology thread and ask whether King Arthur wants any help or unsolicited advice there first.

The tech tree for human races has to be done first for any of these maps anyway, and the tech icons have been lovingly finished by Blue Monkey. I move we adjourn to the technology thread and ask whether King Arthur wants any help or unsolicited advice there first.

Well I see the tech tree being quite different for human races depending on the map used. The world map is ideal for competing nation states and needs dealt with in a broader scope. The map with Britain is somewhat different and would be suited to competing small groups of individuals with narrower goals: Scientific Discovery/ Exploration: think League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, Secret Societies of Evil, Bonkers Mad Aristocrats with Robot Butlers and other such stuff. Choice of map would affect everything from the building improvements, units and resources we would have in each scenario.

To be clear about where I stand, we should develop Balthasar's map into a scenario. Keep things deliberately small to start ~ 10 civs, 1era worth of techs for each culture group etc. Everything is more manageable that way and more likely to get completed. Ok I can forsee difficulties in getting some units: 4 armed green martians being one but we can take some artistic liberties.

Let's adjourn to the Tech Thread Gentlemen. Cigars and Brandy all round. All help and unsolicited advice welcome.

Let's adjourn to the Tech Thread Gentlemen. Cigars and Brandy all round. All help and unsolicited advice welcome.As Rudyard said, "There's peace in a Larranaga". That fellow I keep locked in the garret is so busy scribbling he won't even notice I'm gone. But, rather than Islay, I'll have a taste of Java with my Sumatra if it's all the same to you chaps.

:coffee::cowboy:

About civs for the Lost Worlds Map. Instead of Scotland and England how about League of Gentlemen led by Phileas Fogg and Secret Evil Society led by Professor Moriarty? There's possibly room for one or two more I would like city locations replaced with locations from fictional literature e.g. No. 7 Saville Row (residence of Mr. Fogg); 221b Baker Street (Holmes); Greystoke Estate (Tarzan - no idea where it was located though). If anyone can up with some more just post!

Well it's a bigass place. You'll notice I put Loch Ness and Roslyn on the map just to accommodate Ideas like this. (my original idea was to put a teleporter on an island in the lost world connected to Loch Ness, so that every once in a while a swimming dinosaur would cross over - problem was, teleporters don't work on water, and I'd risk getting a T-rex invasion of scotland) I like your idea though, of different factions rather than different countries competing, but we want to keep the number down for game speed consideration. Here are the considerations from the map maker's point of view: each faction should have at least one base on the northern (western) and southern (eastern ) coasts, so that they can build the Nautilus and Rocketship, respectively. I intended that some resource could be strategically placed near each to keep the AI from trying to build say, a rocket in Loch Ness. I intended that airstrips and teleporters would become important in the late game, to save time. As for factions, the storyline can be outlandish as we want, like having Victor Frankenstein and Count Dracula (evil faction, hereafter known as EF) set up shop in Scottish castles. Put Nemo (GF) and Davy Jones (EF) on coastal bases, put Greystoke (GF) on an estate in southern england. As for the rest, I need to do some research. . .

I'll be ready to do some map tweaking as soon as I'm done remodding the terrain of South East Asia for Blue Monkey - that project should be done in a few days, but it's why you haven't heard from me this week. I almost dropped everything to do a full scale Mars map in honor of the Pheonix project, but I've so far resisted the urge.

Postscript: there is another way to do this that could be MUCH simpler: Leave the Scots and the English exactly where they are, but as AI only, and put the faction "cities" in and around them. Have to get on with the locals to function is all. The map is big enough to accommodate that. Then have the factions' city names be things like "Davy Jones' Tavern" "Professor Moriarty's Academy". These cities could be either built by the factions themselves (AI would not be able to build settlers) or pre-placed (which would allow us to use the famous Resource is City trick to make each look unique - I would enjoy seeing "Frankenstein's Castle" in the highlands). The faction cities could each have a resource that allows a unit: Frankenstein's Monster or Mr. Hyde, etc..
And then we will have successfully merged the Steampunk and Superhero mods altogether. I'm liking this idea more and more.. . .

I like those ideas too Balthasar. :D

....But what about Dr. Fu Manchu?!

Fu Manchu would be entirely appropriate since he was supposedly based on criminal characters found in the Limestone borough of London - London's Chinatown - and figures prominently in LOEG II.

Another interesting villain is the mysterious Jean Diable (aka John Devil), created by Paul Feval. John Devil was the world's first supervillain in what was arguably the world's first detective novel in 1861 - thirty years before Conan Doyle created Holmes and Moriarty! JD's plot to use armored warships to free Napoleon and conquer India also makes it the first techno-thriller in popular literature. John Devil also appears in LOEG: The Black Dossier working together with Moriarty. Feval also invented the London crime organization the Gentlemen of the Night, a branch of the international organization known as the Blackcoats.

I don't suppose Ming would start in "space"?

Continued from a different thread:

Since I have never workded with leaderheads, it might take me a while to get it done, but will give it my best shot. And I will let you know if of any bugs that I find. Might be hard to get to the Moon, though. Have you ever heard of Space:1889 by the way?

In the readme file is a list of leaderheads that I used to set this up. If you download and install these files you shouldn't have to change anything in the editor.
For more information, you want to read this (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=203465) tutorial about adding leaderheads. And note that I made no changes to the text files, so you'll have to do that yourself to fully integrate the leaderheads into the mod. I hope this helps you.

As for being hard to get to the Moon: It requires an ocean-going vessel, so you have two choices; either find and add a rocketship unit (as we will eventually do in the Steampunk Mod) or go in a Galleon, like Baron Munchausen. On this map the sea is the "deep sea" and is supposed to be only able to be traversed by the Nautilus (and of course all of the units from Atlantis). You can deal with this as you'd like, only be sure that you can carry enough units, because the only way into the underground world is to conquer at least one of the undersea cities, which allow access to the underground tunnels.

Yes, I have heard of Space:1889 and it was one of the inspirations for this map.

Keep an eye on this Steampunk Forum for more ideas that will be coming up soon regarding techs, units, leaderheads and Civilopedia entries. Add the Steampunk Interface for more atmosphere. You could learn alot by building up your map as we do ours; and by all means feel free to comment: we live for feedback.

P.S. Since I did the leaderheads, R8XFT (Rob) suggested using Catherine the Great as a leaderhead for england, as she looks like Victoria. I like that idea.

I don't suppose Ming would start in "space"?

Maybe an island big enough to hold 3-4 cities, with the capital being size 12 at start? Give him (sorry, Him!!!) the techs to cross the sea.

I don't suppose Ming would start in "space"?

I would save Ming for a sequel to this mod: BlueMonkey's "Outer Worlds" map, perhaps. . .

I would save Ming for a sequel to this mod: BlueMonkey's "Outer Worlds" map, perhaps. . .

Sequel called "What happened when our steamspaceship took off" :lol:

@jlvfr and Moosezilla. Yes Blue is working on a map that includes the planet Mongo, Venus, Mars etc. I agree with Balthasar that he should be reserved for that map.

@Balthasar. I did notice the resemblence between Catherine and Victoria. I think we should amalgamate Scotland and England into one AI-only civ: Great Britain. What do you think? That leaves 3 factions for the "Earth" area: League of Gentlemen, Secret Evil Society and GB.

@HT. Fu Manchu will be in just not as head of the Evil faction (might change depending on what leaderhead we can come up with for Moriarty). In fact the more characters we can up with the better as the plan is to include a lot character units in the mod in the same way as EFZI2.

I think we should amalgamate Scotland and England into one AI-only civ: Great Britain. What do you think? That leaves 3 factions for the "Earth" area: League of Gentlemen, Secret Evil Society and GB.

I'm all in favor except for one thing: the reason I divided the island in the first place was that I ran out of city slots. Can we just reassign the Scottish cities to Great Britain without penalty? Otherwise you, as King of the Britons, will have to decide which British and Scottish Cities are to be eliminated. No club rivalries are allowed to be considered when making your decision!

Also, we should consider the names "Gentlemen of the Night" or "Blackcoats" (see discussion a few posts back) as the name of the criminal organization, since these names have solid pedigree, and I could whip up a nifty (and annotated!) Civilopedia entry for either one.

I'm almost certain you can reassign any number of cities to another civ up to the maximum city limit. The starting city names don't even have to be in the city list unless you want the convenience of plotting them out directly via editor without having to rename each city.

I think Blackcoats would make a nice unit name but less so for the faction name. And I think Gentlemen of the Night is too close to League of Gentlemen for the good faction. I need to think about that one.

"Brotherhood of Shadows"?

Does no one like the name Secret Evil Society then? Tell me, I can take it :) (The name actually comes from the Civ 2 Jules Verne scenario).

Maybe we need a vote- I'm a democratic kind of guy.

A. Blackcoats
B. Gentlemen of the Night
C. Brotherhood of Shadows
D. Secret Evil Society
E. Hilary Clinton ;)

I like the Secret Evil Society. There's just a Victorian ring to it...

Thank you for your Vote Virote.

I like the Secret Evil Society. There's just a Victorian ring to it...It would sound even more evilly Victorian were it translated into French.

Quick trawl of the Online Translators
Société mauvaise secrète
Méchante Société Secrète
La Société Diabolique secrète - my favourite!

Their plan is to 1. turn Britain into a republic, 2. take over the world, and 3. make the British speak French! :scared:


EDIT: Although that storyline looks kinda like a pre-Victorian, Napoleonic-type storyline...

La Société Diabolique secrète:thumbsup:

I would vote, as I said, for the Black Coats, aka, the Gentlemen of the Night because of it's Victorian pedigree. But since we've embarked on creating our own mythology, allow me to add my own neo-Victorian flourish:

"La Société Diabolique Secrète (The Secret Evil Society): originally founded by elite members of Les Habits Noirs (the Black Coats) in France, it's symbol, and calling card, was a black rose. When the Black Coats were brought to England by the master criminal John Devil in the 1830's under the nome de plume The Gentlemen's Society, the Société Diabolique acted as an invisible 'board of directors' of the group. Some years later Professor Moriarty resurrected and rebuilt the group and during this time it was often, and erroneously, called The Black Rose Society or The Black Rose. Because this elite group was known only (or more accurately, suspected to exist) by certain members of Scotland Yard, it's existence has not been chronicled in popular literature, although some members of the group have become known to the public by the infamy of their individual misdeeds. Even less is known of the actual activities of the Société, save for the fact that they have always recruited only the créme de la créme of the criminal world, so that its members are invariably the most evil, treacherous, dangerous, and talented criminal minds of their time."

Voila!?

Looks like a proper 'pedia entry to me! By the by, there's an "old school" pub in Boston, Mass. called "The Black Rose" that has vague associations with early anarchists.

Great writing there Balthasar and a fantastic start to the civilopedia. Fancy doing some more entries?

Great writing there Balthasar and a fantastic start to the civilopedia. Fancy doing some more entries?

I'd be happy to.

Edit: I've begun putting these in the Civilizations thread here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6894243&postcount=53).

Been laying around the last three days fighting a summer cold & fever. When I've been coherent enough (not trying to close the drinkable yogurt with the aspirin cap) I've been reading Vandermeer's SP anthology & listening to Vernian Process. So, while recouping today I had a breakthrough on the Earth part of the "Other Worlds" map. Here's version 3. I think at this scale there's room for most of the civs in the original post, minus a few for the planetary civs.

http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/1301/schema3previewuz6.png

Main changes:

The Southern Underworld is shrunk a bit, but Pellucidar remains the same size.
Agartha is moved to the Boreal region.
Many parts of the map are out of proportion - England is quite prominent, for example, & Africa is foreshortened. I'm aiming for a sort of "world leadership = larger" idea. Japan is important because of their important contributions in the realm of automata.
Had to sacrifice the Pacific for the Atlantic connection. Alaska to Kamchatka is only doable "over the Pole".
There's room for some remnants of Mu (Nan Madol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nan_Madol)?), Dilmun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dilmun), Skull Island (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skull_Island), & even an island I think of as a cross between Kôr (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dilmun), Adamawara & Nevèrÿon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neveryon).
Barsoom & Amtor are more distant from Earth, and are about 150% their previous size
Luna & Mongo are smaller than before.


Here's a larger version with an overlain grid for those who want to get a sense of the game scale for various regions. It's roughly 210 tiles across by 260 down.

thumbnail
http://img65.imageshack.us/img65/3572/schema3gridpreviewfo0.th.jpg (http://img65.imageshack.us/my.php?image=schema3gridpreviewfo0.jpg)

What little I have been able to look over due to my Extremely SLOW Dial Up connection, there are some very interesting things you are all putting together here. Concerning the Name "La Société Diabolique Secrète"...how about just "League of Diabolical Men"? Is there really a need to state "secret" in their name? Perhaps I am omitting the Flavor that is desired... :)

What little I have been able to look over due to my Extremely SLOW Dial Up connection, there are some very interesting things you are all putting together here. Concerning the Name "La Société Diabolique Secrète"...how about just "League of Diabolical Men"? Is there really a need to state "secret" in their name? Perhaps I am omitting the Flavor that is desired... :)

Dude, pony up for the broadband - it's better value than socks! Read back just a few posts from here and you'll see how it develops. Actually, in conversations I have with group members, we call it the Evil Secret Society or ESS. The good guys are the League of Gentlemen, or LOG.

To catch you up, there are actually three mods in development here, all being overseen by King Arthur, who is the Group Leader:

The Lost Worlds is set in the Victorian Age (1837-1900, roughly) and covers the same sort of territory found in the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen and Space: 1889. It leans heavily on Jules Verne, Edgar Rice Burroughs and A Conan Doyle for inspiration, but includes many characters that appear in the fiction of that day. I am project director, but everyone's in on the act; Blue Monkey did some beautiful Tech Icons for us, and King Arthur is about ready with the Tech Tree and Unit List.

The Other Worlds project, (not really named by Blue Monkey yet) is the "sequel" and covers the early 20th century, (1890-1950?) with some overlap. If I understand it correctly, it picks up where the Lost Worlds leaves off, taking us to Venus and Mongo, and includes Flash Gordon, Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow, George Orwell, etc.
Blue Monkey is the project director, and as you can see above, will have a beautiful and ambitious map for us to play. :goodjob:

Steampunk: Earth (the prequel) will be set in a whole-earth map. Not much development yet: King Arthur is project director for this one.

I'm sure there will be lots of overlaps on these (airships, mystics, strange contraptions), and we welcome lots of participation, with map ideas, unit ideas, graphics ideas and just general kibbitzing happening in the various threads. We're currently looking for Unit Makers most of all.

I think that covers it.

Balthasar... Thanks for the Update but as for High Speed Internet, you are assuming that I have an Option. I have dealt with SLOW Dial Up for 12 Years and it is NOT available for me to get any High Speed service where I live.

I have many things I would like to Upload that I have done but SLOW speed prevents my desire to try. It requires about 2 minutes just to load a page for the this site. As for Larger Graphics that are uploaded to the Threads...that requires far too long to mess with.

I wish you success and Good Luck with your endeavors concerning this Game and Be Happy you have High Speed Internet to do it with :)

P. S., I could give you a few "pointers" concerning any .pcx file for the game IF you are interested...all in the details.

The Other Worlds project, (not really named by Blue Monkey yet) is the "sequel" and covers the early 20th century, (1890-1950?) with some overlap. If I understand it correctly, it picks up where the Lost Worlds leaves off, taking us to Venus and Mongo, and includes Flash Gordon, Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow, George Orwell, etc.
Blue Monkey is the project director, and as you can see above, will have a beautiful and ambitious map for us to play.I don't envision this version of the SP mod moving technology any further forward from steam than Tesla - steam-powered tesla-cannon armed juggernauts are scary enough. Actually, I picture it more as culminating with the Belle Époque (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belle_%C3%89poque) & the Great War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_War). Great War in this case possibly involving more than one world. A "Scramble for Planets" rather than a "Scramble for Africa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scramble_for_Africa)". The Great Game (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Game) writ large. I chose that culmination because it matches up Stableford's trilogy that ends with Carnival of Destruction (http://www.amazon.com/Carnival-Destruction-Brian-Stableford/dp/0786703334/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1217135737&sr=8-1). Having just previously read Difference Engine it made me really think about the tipping point from a steam utopia to a punk dystopia.

Mongo is a bit anachronistic. I felt that Barsoom made a better, playable, civ than Wells' Martians (although some of their machinery might be an interesting late-era UU), yet there needed to be at least one of the "celestial" civs capable of countering Earth spacefarers with their aetheric flying machines. Plus, Ming & Fu Manchu have one of those "separated at birth" things going on. I never really bought him as an "Evil Oriental" either. So, I thought, what if the hidden puppet master were off-planet. I also liked the idea from the movie of minor inhabited moons (my very first SF reading, at about age 8, was the Mushroom Planet series (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wonderful_Flight_to_the_Mushroom_Planet)).

If there's Pellucidar & Barsoom, then there's room for Amtor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus_series). Here's a small image of the look of the terrain (An Amazing Stories back cover):

http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/892/amazingvenusfr0.png

It didn't seem fair not to have at least a hint of Arne Saknussemm's route, so for the true 19th century vision of a Hollow Earth I needed to get a map that let me have 2 underworlds, Agartha (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agartha) via the north entry & Pellucidar in the south.


I do, on the other hand have ideas for another, separate mod project encompassing the whole secret history of the world, with eras going roughly Atlantean/Lemurian, Hermetic/Rosicrucian, SteamPunk, and Retrofuture/Raygun Gothic.

http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/8907/googiemf3.png

Well you still didn't name it. All kidding aside, I look forward to seeing these ideas develop, as you seem to have put a great deal of thought into it. I will certainly be willing to contribute whatever I can.
I like the second mod idea as well, and see alot of possibility in it.

I guess I've always been a sucker for retrofuture. My father was a Sci-Fi fan since childhood, so I grew up with Amazing Stories and BiggerLittle Books close at hand. Though my taste in Sci-Fi developed from that to Asimov to Heinlein to Harlen Ellison and beyond, I still have a soft spot for good old ray-gun Space Opera.

P.S. you are the king of images.

Well you still didn't name it.something something Planetary Romance something something
or
Lost Worlds (Gadzooks! That one's taken!)
or
A Tesliad (in opposition to the Edisonade (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edisonade))
or
The Great (Space) Race
or
Sceptre & Orbs
or
The Strange Case of the Round-Robin Double-Elimination Name-The-Mod Thread
All kidding aside, I look forward to seeing these ideas develop, as you seem to have put a great deal of thought into it. I will certainly be willing to contribute whatever I can.Actually, knowing I work so slowly, I'm hoping both the straight, Earth-only version & your Lost Worlds version come to fruition first. My intention is to tweak rather than reinvent.I like the second mod idea as well, and see alot of possibility in it.It's one of those back burner things. There was a great tv program called Meeting of Minds (http://www.steveallen.com/television_pioneer/meeting_of_minds.htm). Then too much coffee & late nights thinking about a conversation between Athanasius Kircher, Hagbard Celine, Bob Dobbs, Frank Zappa, Thomas Mandeville, et al, that has Eco'd down through the years... I guess I've always been a sucker for retrofuture. My father was a Sci-Fi fan since childhood, so I grew up with Amazing Stories and BiggerLittle Books close at hand. Though my taste in Sci-Fi developed from that to Asimov to Heinlein to Harlen Ellison and beyond, I still have a soft spot for good old ray-gun Space Opera.I'm just about the perfect age for a "scientifical romance" fanboy. On the third Sunday in July, the year I was 12, I ran outside to stare at the moon for 19 minutes straight, having just seen a very blurry tv image from Tranquility. Around the same time period I got to see a Rocket Belt demonstration, and actually stood next to two debutantes & two swinging bachelors sitting in a Ford convertible that had been adapted to float on a cushion of air. Unfortunately it only moved around as fast as you could give it a push to get it going.

And what an age of space opera we've got now, between Ian Banks, Alastair Reynolds, and others of that ilk. On the gripping hand, we live in a Night Fly (http://www.amazon.com/Nightfly-Donald-Fagen/dp/B000002KXV/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1217145613&sr=8-1), Where's My Jet Pack? (http://www.amazon.com/Wheres-My-Jetpack-Amazing-Science/dp/1596911360/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1217144825&sr=1-1) world. P.S. you are the king of images.Thank you. Like Picasso, I had a Blue Period. The occupation listed on my public profile is not an idle boast. My (incomplete & abandoned) dissertation was along the lines of "cross-cultural semiotic analysis of concrete initiation spaces to develop a schema for the design of virtual educational environments". If that's too scary to parse, think of it as connecting the dots between Songlines & Cathedrals in order to wield Second Life.

Interesting. I never read your public profile before. Turns out you, I, and King Arthur are all about the same age. You and I both like King Crimson (I suspect we both like alot of the same music), and apparently Umberto Eco. You might like this tidbit: I've met and had conversations with Peter Max and Adrian Belew (both by accident) and was given a copy of The Foundation Trilogy by Roger Dean (who did the Yes covers). How all that translates into a common interest in Civ and Steampunk might be the subject of a dissertation in itself.

7Ronin, who sadly is inactive now, is another member of our club. I know you've had the experience of younger people disbelieving that you could have done "all that" simply because they can't imagine a longer life. I understand the ennui of Louis Wu, although I don't share it. I suspect that you'd be another one (like me) whose "What excuse can I come up with for these weird units I like" mod would be very interesting to play.

As to Dean: I'd love to see some"Dean" terrain. & that great worldshard towing space frigate ought to be in the SP mod.

No Excuses!

No Excuses!So which existing or planned mod's internal logic would justify the inclusion of this unit (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=284797) as well as these (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=204849)?

Actually, the beaver worker might work for the Mahar in the Lost Worlds Mod....

The point was a mod, other than an "excuse for including all the weird units I like" mod - since Moosezilla wants no excuses.

Uh... oh. Okay. I didn't understand the 'no excuses' remark in the first place, nor could I figure what it was referring to. While I do appreciate Moosezilla's enthusiasm for this project, he needn't worry. Lost Worlds will have plenty of unusual units, and for legitimate reasons!

Sorry for my inherent obtuseness but what I meant was no excuses are needed. It goes along with my overall strategy of "I don't know notin'!" (first postulated by Sgt. Shultz) This makes ftf opponents wonder...

Sorry for my inherent obtuseness but what I meant was no excuses are needed. It goes along with my overall strategy of "I don't know notin'!" (first postulated by Sgt. Shultz) This makes ftf opponents wonder...Don't worry about being abstruse. We need a good OT breather every once in a while.

;) :coffee:

@Moosezilla - just to reiterate Blue Monkey's sentiments: post more!

Same goes for all you lurkers and infrequent posters. I know I don't get around to replying much but input is always welcome and this scenario is very much alive.

I thought I'd just drop in to say this is one of my favourite forums, even though I'm not much of a fiction reader myself. I do have a slight soft spot for Steampunk, though :)

Not sure if any of you are familiar with Arrowsmith (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrowsmith_%28comics%29), or if it's even SteamPunk, but here's a scan of the map that may provide some food for thought. Apparently Lawrence Watt-Evans was hired to develop a thousand years of back story.

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http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/9494/arrowsmithmaphy0.th.jpg (http://img299.imageshack.us/my.php?image=arrowsmithmaphy0.jpg)

Pellucidar isn't finished yet, but features prehistoric trees to go with the Dinosaurs.Wandering around late one night I bumped into these (virtually). Looking at their surrounding terrain (marshy) it struck me (p.i.) that they might make an interesting forest/jungle for both Pellucidar & Amtor. They're a species of baobob peculiar to Madagascar.

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http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/5690/planetsforestyd8.th.jpg (http://img156.imageshack.us/my.php?image=planetsforestyd8.jpg)

Despite a couple of hours worth of setbacks - both my main graphics programs repeatedly crashing because of large clipboards - I've got a new version of the "Sceptre & Orbs" map design. The map will have a few things that don't show here - Hawaii, Easter Island, Skull Island, & some sort of Lemurian remnant in the Indian Ocean, for example.* If it passes muster then I'm ready to move on to the slow process of building the actual map.

The first image is at 25% scale:
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http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/5236/schema4ngpostrv2.th.jpg (http://img291.imageshack.us/my.php?image=schema4ngpostrv2.jpg)

for those who want to get a feel for the hugeness of the map here's a 50% scale version with a tile grid superimposed. Warning: the image is very large.
thumbnail
http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/280/scema4gridpostai1.th.jpg (http://img291.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scema4gridpostai1.jpg)



* I've also been pondering the idea of putting a couple of those legendary African seas on the map. Then maybe Mokèlé-mbèmbé (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mokele-mbembe) would be happy enough to make an appearance. Like this, for instance:
thumbnail
http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/6370/africa1uz0.th.png (http://img181.imageshack.us/my.php?image=africa1uz0.png)

http://img54.imageshack.us/img54/6276/sceptreminikj1.png

This is a very rough & ready biq. Basically just a quick conversion via bmp2bic & maptweaker. No terrain details at all yet. I'm only posting it for feedback as to basic size of the whole map & the individual planets / Earthly continents. coastlines will definitely be changed.

My tentative plan is to limit Earth, Amtor, & Mongo oceans to the "coastal" terrain. I will use/adapt/modify something like Lukrees Space Terrain (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=34138) so that "seas" are atmosphere & oceans are "space". I know that this will cause the quirk of the arid planets having coasts. The only alternative I can see would be to use embryodead's scheme for creating LM terrains with a hex editor.

Here's the zipped biq.
188315

That's massively impressive Blue. I like the way the Earth turned out - plenty room for exploration of Darkest Africa :D

You can use the MapTweaker program (in the Utilities section of the forums) to adjust individual tiles to get the effect you're after.

Wow! Maaaassive! Just like I like to played it! :goodjob:

But where are poor Greenland and Australia? :confused:

That's massively impressive Blue. I like the way the Earth turned out - plenty room for exploration of Darkest AfricaThank you! What do you think of my idea ( a couple of posts above) of giving Africa some small interior seas/swamps for a bit of "lost worlds" territory?


You can use the MapTweaker program (in the Utilities section of the forums) to adjust individual tiles to get the effect you're after.From this stage I prefer working in the C3C Editor. I'm more comfortable making local adjustments of several types concurrently in it, because I can better see what it will look like during play.


But where are poor Greenland and Australia? Greenland is the curvy bit NE of Canada - at the same latitude as Scotland. Australia is on the extreme Eastern edge of the map, just below the equator. Those are two of the several parts of the world that were reduced in size relative to areas like England. Size & position = relative importance, not geography, in the mod.

Size & position = relative importance, not geography, in the mod.

....well, you just lost the Argentinian vote. I really like what you did with this map. And I like the idea of an African "interior" too, with plenty of beasts, and Livingston, I presume.

Greenland is the curvy bit NE of Canada - at the same latitude as Scotland. Australia is on the extreme Eastern edge of the map, just below the equator. Those are two of the several parts of the world that were reduced in size relative to areas like England. Size & position = relative importance, not geography, in the mod.

Let's hope no aussie reads this! :lol:

....well, you just lost the Argentinian vote.Well, the Euro-Argentinians are probably happy to be an important part of the Empire of Brasyl. The indigenes probably are unhappy both there or with the alternative of submission to Tikal. Let's hope no aussie reads this! :lol:No worries, mate! The sun never sets on the Anglian Empire! Victoria rules the orbs!
There are 4 North american civs. The Australian part of the Empire alone has about equal area to any of them. And I like the idea of an African "interior" too, with plenty of beasts, and Livingston, I presume.Room for Livingston, Burton, Roosevelt, Patterson & Ryall, Custer, Kurtz, H. Paget F., Holly & Vincey, D'Arnot, & Cordery. As well as their respective McGuffins. I really like what you did with this map. Now there's only the small formality of placing actual terrain, including LMs & solving the "Aetheric terrain" issues, together with the balance of resource placement. Civ start locations should be trivial.

Pellucidar isn't finished yet, but features prehistoric trees to go with the Dinosaurs.Wandering around late one night I bumped into these (virtually). Looking at their surrounding terrain (marshy) it struck me (p.i.) that they might make an interesting forest/jungle for both Pellucidar & Amtor. They're a species of baobob peculiar to Madagascar.

thumbnail
http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/5690/planetsforestyd8.th.jpg (http://img156.imageshack.us/my.php?image=planetsforestyd8.jpg)

Okay, Balthasar. Please make a "lost worlds forest/jungle" terrain set for all of our benefit. Besides the Madagascar baobobs, there is the unique flora of Socotra Island, especially the Dragon's Blood Tree (http://www.darkroastedblend.com/2008/09/most-alien-looking-place-on-earth.html).

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/7323/3453758494b53efab1evn8.jpg

The linked site has many photos & links to the wikipedia article with links to further photo pages.

Okay, Balthasar. Please make a "lost worlds forest/jungle" terrain set for all of our benefit.

Well, all of the Pellucidar graphics are available right now in the Lost Worlds Map download. I'd like to do a complete prehistoric set one of these days, but right now I'm busier than a long tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs. I've got a Western US trees set about half done, and an African set lined up after that, so it might be a minute before I get to it. The last set of buildings for the Lost World Mod is three-quarters done, and I have every intention of finishing that before I do anything else - but, thank you for your interest.

Well, all of the Pellucidar graphics are available right now in the Lost Worlds Map download. I'd like to do a complete prehistoric set one of these days, but right now I'm busier than a long tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs. I've got a Western US trees set about half done, and an African set lined up after that, so it might be a minute before I get to it. The last set of buildings for the Lost World Mod is three-quarters done, and I have every intention of finishing that before I do anything else - but, thank you for your interest.You're like me, plenty of irons, plenty of fire, just not enough hands. I'm patient, since my own work is so slow. I do reserve the right to remind you, further on down the road.

There's room for some remnants of Mu (Nan Madol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nan_Madol)?), Dilmun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dilmun), Skull Island (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skull_Island), & even an island I think of as a cross between Kôr (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dilmun), Adamawara & Nevèrÿon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neveryon).


Hiya,

I don't know the current status of the map development part of this project, or if you're open to suggestions or anything, but looking at the map I see that there's room for R'lyeh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%27lyeh) somewhere off the southeastern coast of South America -- if it fits in with the game concept.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/68/R%27lyeh_map.png

I love the way this is shaping up -- really looking forward to playing it!

I don't know the current status of the map development part of this project...There's Balthasar's "Lost Worlds" map which I believe is currently becoming an actual biq, there is my own "Sceptre & Orbs" which is at the stage of placing & fine-tuning terrain, and there are rumors of an Earth-only map which I believe KingArthur can best comment on.
:coffee: :smoke:if you're open to suggestions or anything ...if it fits in with the game concept.It seems you have answered your own question..

there's room for R'lyeh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%27lyeh)
.
:nono:
TATTMWNMTK

:hide::mwaha:

The variety of terrain needed to do "Sceptre & Orbs" well is more than C3C can handle, without getting into the arcana of hex editing. Idly wrestling with it while listening to an audiobook of “the Coming Race” the light bulb came on. The Sceptre & Orbs biq will deal solely with the interplanetary romance. The underworld map elements & that culture group will be removed. A new biq "Hollow Earth" will take on that aspect of the SP alternate universe.

The map used in the conceptual graphic below is Rhye’s, the 134x 130 version with Europe enlarged. I’ve pasted on the polar regions from another map. The map will have vertical, as well as horizontal, wraparound. This simulates that one can journey from pole to pole through the nether regions. Given the 362 (x 362) tile limit the inner Earth can nearly equal the surface map in playable area. Rhye’s map has narrowed oceans. Extending them would increase the inner world’s area as well. I imagine that the several chthonic races will have their own enclaves & that the main contest will be for a larger central open area:
thumbnail
http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/9263/hollowearth1nm7.th.png (http://img206.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hollowearth1nm7.png)

Since the issues related to specialized terrain & limiting unit movement will be much simpler for the Hollow Earth, I’m going to let it take precedence over Sceptre & Orbs in my ever extending & receding work queue.

Thanks to Rhodie for making a "Typhoon" unit that helped with the conceptual breakthrough that makes this new approach postable. The Typhoon can stand-in for a Maelstrom that ships must get through to gain access to the North Polar entry point.

Very nice! Reminds me of a "cavern" mod I was working on a while back...

Here's a composite screenshot of a very early version of the Hollow Earth biq. The map is 156 x 362.

Thumbnail (very large original)
http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/2764/prevhollowearth1ui9.th.jpg (http://img408.imageshack.us/my.php?image=prevhollowearth1ui9.jpg)

It has to be a composite because at this stage I haven't worked out which will be LM terrain & which standard. The largest "caverns" will share base terrains with the surface, although the forests will be quite different. To do this one area will use Grass & LM Plains, while the other will have Plains & LM Grass. I made myself a little chart to help me work out how to have as much terrain variety as possible. I've already worked out the basic concept for a few tricks, like making LM Desert = Tundra, which frees up a base terrain + two kinds of forest to play with. Here's a close shot of what Tundra turned into Tunnel looks like, with Mushroom & Stalagmite Forests.

http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/9109/cavepreviewfe6.jpg

Abner Perry said he thought Pellucidar was the opposite (water where land,land where water) of the surface. He didn't have to be right. Good effort B.

Abner Perry said he thought Pellucidar was the opposite (water where land,land where water) of the surface. He didn't have to be right. Good effort B.This is not a concave Hollow Earth, such as Cyrus Teed proposed. It's syncretic of several 19th century theories & tales. The North Polar entrance will be via a maelstrom (thanks go to Poe); The South Pole via a cavern passage (the type Verne used, as well as HPL & others). Later in the scenario there will be means to get into the underworld from other locations as well.

The large central area will be Pellucidar-like in terms of flora & fauna and primitive tribes, but there will also be Vril'ya, reptiloids, Ghul (a la HPL), chthonic mushroom farmers, a lost antediluvian civ (a la Haggard), Agharthans, and another surprise or three. Not to mention the mysterious regions on the surface, like Skull Island, Shambhala, the land of the Mokèlé-mbèmbé, etc.

:coffee:

Keep this in mind: if you make all of the underground terrain LM terrain, it will be easier to manage and create, graphics-wise. Thats why I made Barsoom entirely from LM terrain. Water is insanely difficult to sort. The editor keeps wanting to drop non-LM water in at various points, depending on the nearby terrain, so my asteroids, for instance, represent a sort of dance I did with the program to make all of the unwanted LM sea disappear.

That's such a great underground you've got there. The tundra path makes it look a little like a salt cave. It's a bit bleak - it wouldn't hurt to have a few differently colored rocks in, here and there, unless this world is made entirely of, say, obsidian. On the other hand, it could all be even darker too, if that's the direction you're shooting. I daresay that my torches would look good in here. You might also consider using LM water for the underground seas (Maybe make use of EFZI water?).

Now I'm off to do a major overhaul of my own caves....

Nice map! I have a few scenarios with a similar concept which I have been working on at some point or other!

Keep this in mind: if you make all of the underground terrain LM terrain, it will be easier to manage and create, graphics-wise.The major problem is that forests cannot be on LM terrain - the editor automatically changes it to the base terrain. So for both surface & underworld to have forests each must have the use of at least one base terrain. Thus the Gr / Lm Pl & Pl / Lm Gr set up. Since in the underworld I'll need cave like environments, as well as a variety of lighted terrains, the underworld gets use of the tundra - giving the choice of 2 base terrains, with pine & regular forest graphics for both, as well as the lm forest. Plus it can share the terrain used on the surface - the other base with its regular forest, pine, & jungle.
The tundra path makes it look a little like a salt cave. It's a bit bleak - it wouldn't hurt to have a few differently colored rocks in, here and there, unless this world is made entirely of, say, obsidian.The graphics will be changing. There is another version of the stalagmites in a lighter brown. I'm going to make them more varied. The larger areas (grass / plains) are going have more of a "normal" look. So only the passages & the impassable rock will be dark in the end.You might also consider using LM water for the underground seas There is only LM Sea. Coast & Ocean have only the base version.

The only way beyond those limits is the hex-editing solution. I'm not up for dealing with that - my understanding is that it must be done tile by tile.

You can also make LM Coasts by placing down some LM terrain over where you want the coast to be, and then placing down LM Seas, turning the tiles into LM Coasts.

You're talking about extending the graphics into at least a second tile, a major graphics project at best. If you know someone who has successfully created such a set, let me know. Such a unique file's usefulness would then become very limited for other locations on the map - an important consideration.

I've been rethinking the conception of the Hollow Earth map. If I made the surface map more abstract and reduce the number of civs (2-3 per continent) then that would free up map space, terrain types, and civs for the Hollow Earth itself.

Here's a very sketchy schema:

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/707/hollowschema2.png

Will there at least be a seperate "Steampunk Earth" Map if you are going for this new idea?

Yes. There is (and was always) to be an "Earth only" scenario, most likely with KingArthur as the lead designer. Look at the early threads, like Discussion Topic - Civilizations of the World (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=246288): even though KA has edited the OP to refer to the Lost Worlds scenario, the next few pages of discussion focus on the civs for the all Earth scenario.

Blue,

I really like this abstraction of the earth map surrounding the "hollow earth". It's geometrically pleasing and a logical representation of an outer world surrounding an inner one. Are you going to roll with this idea or the original one?

I favor the more abstract one. That'd leave the Earth in your capable hands.

I'd like to have a city set for the surface dwellers that is encampments. Something like this, but in various sizes:

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/1440/image52.png

I think I'd set it up so that only the "Surfers" are playable civs - give them a limited but powerful tech/unit line, and concentrate on a vp/princess/space race victory style. There could then be up to 4 culture groups for the "dwellers".

Looks like you are going for Royal Geological Society / American Museum of Natural History type civs?

Looks like you are going for Royal Geological Society / American Museum of Natural History type civs?I was thinking of 3 types - the Vernian scientific explorers, the Burroughs/Farmer manly men conquering the primitives, & the "accidental tourists" a la Bulwer-Lytton (The Coming Race).

I'd like to have a city set for the surface dwellers that is encampments. Something like this, but in various sizes:

Like this, perhaps?

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/1483/excavationcities.jpg

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I made it from Ukas' excavation resource.

Thanks, Balthasar - & Ukas.

Nice job. They could be turned into nice Colony graphics too. Reminds me of Raiders of the Lost Ark.

I made a city set out of the default "colony", if you could use a second set. Nothing special, just single era, single size, as that is all I needed for the project.

I made a city set out of the default "colony", if you could use a second set. Nothing special, just single era, single size, as that is all I needed for the project.Yes please. I might end up using it for one of the sizes/eras, or combining elements of the two.

Here you go!

I've been tinkering around some more with LM terrains for the Hollow Earth map. Here's a sample of some possible color ranges vaguely based on some photos. I hope Methos or others with actual cave exploration experience will comment on it, since I can't tell what is actual mineral color & what is caused by artificial lighting. I want to find a combination of Vernian eye-candy & quasi-realism. Once I find basic workable colors I will add back more of the dark crags like the upper left pair to increase the contrast & keep the terrain more 3d looking.

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/2700/stalagcompare2z.jpg

Questions for those with first hand experience:

Do you find colors intense or more subtle?
would the colors tend toward the darker or lighter?
Do you find various colors close together, or more monochromatic sections?
Would a single stalagmite have multiple colors - like bands or stripes?


Thanks in advance for any help you brave explorers of the netherworld may be able to provide.

Basic- (from memories) all can work as even the purple is a florite (sp) green copper.., but more subdued until illuminated. All good!

I don't care about realism when things look this cool :D

I think I agree with the Big Moose, that some combination of all of them would be both accurate and very very cool. Feel free to mess with the Lost Worlds underground, as it could use some tweaking, and has some specific challenges...

I do intend to combine some of the colors in various combinations. I've invited Methos to take a peek. His mod bailiwick is elsewhere, but he had said before in the moderator discussion area that he'd gladly give a critique based on his extensive caving experience. so between Moosezilla & him the terrain should slowly get WIPed into shape.

Links to sites with good photos of cave interiors would help as well.

Balthasar: I took another look at the screenshots of your underworld. I'll have to try combining what you've got for the base terrain with my variations on Tsuga's stalagmites & mushroom forests. But I've got a lot more work to do so don't hold your breathe for a WIP shot.

Since this is regarding a Hollow World type setting, I'll ignore factors that would alter the cave ecosystem from a modern standpoint, as in contaminates.

Do you find colors intense or more subtle?

It depends. High water, such as floods, can cause formations to be dirty, leaving a dull look towards them. While caves with a lack of rising water, or multiple levels, can have a pristine and bright color.

would the colors tend toward the darker or lighter?

Both. As stated above, it would depend on the cave itself.

Do you find various colors close together, or more monochromatic sections?

Together. Remember, formations are formed by the flow of water through the earth. The coloring of formations is determined by what is mixed in with this water flow. For instance (sorry, modern standpoint), if there is a sinkhole located on the surface that is full of junk, such as rusting equipment, then those contaminates are going to eventually find their way into the cave system and become part of a speleothem, thereby altering the coloring.

Would a single stalagmite have multiple colors - like bands or stripes?

Yes, it could. I've seen formations that were primarily a beautiful white, only to have one section with a downward stripe of an iron color. Just remember, stripes will typically be vertical, with slight horizontal deviations based on air flow.

Thanks in advance for any help you brave explorers of the netherworld may be able to provide.

I'm not sure how the above will help, but I hope it does.

Here are a few pics that will hopefully help.

Sorry for the triple post, but one other thing to remember is water. A living cave (as in the formations are still growing), will be wet. It can be anything from flowing water (streams) to just small pools and the sound of dripping water. A dead cave (formations no longer growing), will be a dry cave.

Thanks for all the info, Methos. The information on the colors is good - gives me an idea of the range I have to be creative. I had gathered some pictures myself, but it's very helpful to know what someone who has actually been there finds typical.

Overall, the scenario is a blend of Verne's underworld with that described in some other Victorian literature such as Bulwar-Lytton's "Coming Race". There will even be a bit of Pellucidar at the center. So the caves will have streams and pools. Even some mushroom "forests". You sparked another idea with your mention of iron contaminants. I may include a partially embedded sprocket in one tile, or even some kind of a "lost device" resource. I'll pm you to let you know when I have some more work done & posted.

Here's a couple of pictures I'd forgotten I had (wrong folder :rolleyes: ) of wet caves. do these look like some reasonable colors to take inspiration from?

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/793/cavecolors.jpg

Time to take advantage of our map creation thread. We haven't used this one in awhile, but I have major map news.

As I told you guys awhile ago, I was taking a good look at Barsoom, to try to get it closer to the place imagined by Burroughs. After wrestling with unit lines, I had to actually get them into the biq, so I started designing Civs based on those races, and that led me to the map.

The map (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6024892&postcount=1) that we've been using is a map of Mars - it had no rivers or forests, and so Barsoom's river Iss, for example, was nonexistant, the Sea of Korus, gone, etc. etc...

So I went back and got a new map source. After much study, I found Rick Johnson's detailed map studies (http://www.erbzine.com/mag21/2110.html) of Barsoom. Unfortunately, although his map is very detailed, he ended up posting it in pieces (probably so that the detail would be appreciated) so I had to rebuild it myself. You can see the result >here (http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/7845/barsoommapbyrick.jpg)< if you're interested.

But Barsoom occupies a differently shaped space on the lost worlds map, so I had to try to get it to the proper size.

First I took a screenshot of the map in the editor and made a little template of the map grid:
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The background is transparent in the original, of course.

Then I made a grid exactly the size that I wanted to fill on the map:
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Then I reduced the size of the map to fit the grid: 240282
This didn't work out badly; it didn't look squeezed - it looked, rather, like I was looking down at it, which works well for gameplay.

This I followed slavishly, square by square, until I'd redesigned the whole map to match the new template. It came out pretty well (for your convenience I've added in city names and labels):

http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/1669/barsoomtitledmapreduced.jpg (http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/2110/barsoomtitledmap.jpg)

Click the map to get a closer look. Mind you, I got all of the new terrain in without losing any other terrain on the larger map. I'm proud of that. Now we have an accurate (if slightly squeezed) version of Burrough's Barsoom.

Notice that down in the right hand corner of the larger map is a legend, matching Civs to cities. Keep that in mind and meet me over at the Civilizations thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8814227&postcount=97)....

Niiiice!

You used a variant of the grid mapping technique I've written about elsewhere. It works very well for translating "artistic/literary" maps of this kind.

Fantastic I love the map :D You've really brought this too life Balth!

You guys have done an incredible job with all these maps, congratulations ! I can't wait to play them.

About the Hollow-Earth, the latest map (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7855223&postcount=99) is really a genius choice. It got the Underground right in back into focus. Any news how this particular project is going ?

When I saw this schema, my imagination ran wild. I hope you don't mind if I lay some of my thoughts here. I imagined the Hollow-Earth could be divised in rings.

First level Ring would be Jules Verne's Voyage au Centre de la Terre (1864): a zone without any starting Civilization, where a few prehistoric animals and a few resources to gather here and there. It would be accessible, at first, only to Explorer-type units (http://cinema.cornell.edu/LateFall08/images/journeycenterofearth%2859%29.jpg) (Impassable to Wheeled). You could settle a few outpost with those units but once you get serious (http://www.badmovies.org/movies/earthcore/earthcore2.jpg) about exploring the Underworld, you can build road and your whole country can get down the hole.
Second level Ring would be Edgar Rice Burroughs' Pellucidar, where Surface Civilizations and Underground civilizations meet for the first time, without any movement restriction. That's where the meat of the mod would be.
Third and last level Ring would be a Howard Philips Lovecraft abyss where one adventurous enough man could find Brian Lumley's Shudde M'ell and its Chthonians (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Lj6rQdfYl7s/SBZC7AmcCRI/AAAAAAAAACg/kr8NGsswHi4/s400/chthonian.jpg) in the lost city of G'harne (Cement Surroundings (1969)) or Clark Ashton Smith's Ubbo-Sathla, the source of all life. The Abyss would be accessible only by Surface Civilization (Impassable for Wheeled).. Or if you ignore them too long, the horrors might crawl out of it and into Pellucidar. It might be a good end-game mechanism.

Thanks for the comments, Supa. It's early days - this is much more on the back burner while we concentrate on Balthasar's ideas. It's more of an idea schema than a map at this point. Your ideas run along similar lines to mine in several ways. Movement will be restricted in several ways - Genuinely impassable terrain, terrain that must be cleared, and used of the wheeled flag. The UCs (underground civs) are meant to be more restricted than the player explorers. Concentric rings is an interesting idea. Figuring out how to let the various UCs interact in a non-linear way would be tricky if that too narrowly restricts the map style. Putting anything involving Brian Lumley in the center of a map/scenario makes my eyes glaze over, however.

I don't think concentrical rings would bother the A.I. I suppose Europe, America, Africa and Asia start the game fully settled. Given how the A.I. likes to settle in these Toundra and Desert tiles as soon as all the good spots are taken in a classic Earth-map, I'm sure Surface Civ. would rush to the 1st Ring (Verne's) with their Explorer units. Eventually, they would make it to Pellucidar Ring.

In Pellucidar, UCs shouldn't have any problems. Does they start the game with a fully settled Pellucidar or does they have to conquer it ? An empty starting Pellucidar would perhaps be the best solution: SCs won't be there before a while, UCs should have something to do beside war. Explore and conquer Pellucidar sound just fine.

What bores you in the 3rd Ring ? The idea itself of a Lovecraftian zone, or Brian Lumley mention ?

I haven't read much of Lumley's works. I've read a few short stories (Cement Surroundings (1969), The Sister City (1969), Spaghetti (1985)) and half of his Titus Crow novels (The Burrowers Beneath (1974), The Transition of Titus Crow (1975), The Clock of Dreams (1978)). I pretty much loathed the Titus Crow Cycle. Although I like the idea of a human organization trying to fight the Great Old Ones, I'm kind of disappointed of the G.O.O. Lumley's depiction. They're way too human and too attached to moral (good and evil). We're far away from H.P. Lovecraft weird entities so different from us we couldn't hope to comprehend them at all. And who could forget the Good Golden Brother of Cthulhu ?

Beside all that, Cement Surroundings was a good story. I liked his creation, the Chthonians since I met one of them in the Alone in the Dark game.

In this particular scenario, Chthonians provide a nice thematic counterpoint to SCs and UCs. UCs, even non-human UCs, are now part of a classic Pulp/Fantasy setting. Pellucidar is a place of high adventures, thrills and explorations but there is nothing really alien. Lovecraftian creatures, with their strange appearances, their not-really-the-same matters, their unfathomable objectives provide this alien and dreadful feelings that, maybe, mankind isn't supposed to explore the depth of Earth and some things should stay buried.

Gameplay-wise, an Abyss-type Civilization could (Lovecraftian, Lumley's, or not) provides a good late-game game-changing event. Too often, a Civ game isn't really interesting near the end. Major powers are there and can't really be moved. If all Abyssian units (but one, I'll come back to this one later), can't cross the few tunnels out of the 3rd ring, Abyss Civ is stuck until a SC (or a late UC) drills through the closed doors of their tombs, basically building a road. Late game, Abyss Civ could gain access to a worker-type unit unwheeled and able to build a road to free its Masters. With their powerful units, an Abyss could sweep the map, forcing SC and UC unto uneasy alliance or, at least, think again about their immediate objectives.

I don't want to seem to be lobbying for a particular vision of what the scenario may be. :) That's just a few ideas I got and I'm only happy to talk about it. That's really some intriguing scenarios you're putting together.

I don't want to seem to be lobbying for a particular vision of what the scenario may be. :) That's just a few ideas I got and I'm only happy to talk about it. That's really some intriguing scenarios you're putting together.Every point you make is valid. One of the problems with a long term project is not getting much input from people outside the team. So there's no challenging of our mutual assumptions. The kind of comments you make are stimulating, whether we choose to follow through on them or not.

My concern with the rings is in scenario style. I want there to be some action between the various UCs - trade, diplomacy, but especially aggression. given that I want to keep the map fairly small the rings may be too narrow to allow this in any more than a "merry-go-round" fashion where there is only the ability to interact with one or two civs at a time.

I'm a Mythos fan. I just find Lumley's work too derivative & his style boring.There are definitely going to be Lovecraftian elements. Between Cthulhu By Gaslight, Shadows Over Baker Street, Stableford's Lydard Trilogy, etc. there's plenty of additional inspiration. If you check out my steampunk tech icon set (link in signature) you'll see a whole Fortean/Lovecraftian/Occult subset - TATTMWNMTK.

I don't have much time right now for a long post, but do you have any use for that kind of GFX ?

It replaces Mountains graphics with some tunnel walls.

It's a quick and dirty graphics, although the base with layers is solid, and it's lacking details but you get the idea. I used Rhye's Underground terrain for the preview but it doesn't have to match it necessarily in final version, if there is any use for it.

Mountains should be impassable. If you look closely, you'll notice a small entrance in the upper cul-de-sac, it is a Hill - Impassable for Wheeled only. Explorer-type unit should be able to use these smaller tunnels.

Gotta go !

Those are intriguing. I think they're definitely worth posting. I'd like to see what a tunnel with turns in it looks like.

Edit: Take a look back at a couple of posts. In my own experiments I was trying to achieve darker walls & lighter paths. That way when there is a section of solid rock the few tunnels will be what stands out. Later I started experimenting with adding some color variation to the stalagmites. Maybe some c&p of parts of those on top of your "Mts" would add some height variation, and toned down versions of the colors for some additional variety. The mushroom forests & stalagmites are variations I made of the work Tsuga and William of Orange did to supplement Rhye's underworld terrain (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=251568). Check post 19 over there for King Arthur's re-upload of what could be found after the hacker attack.


Just as a p.o.i.:
This is not a concave Hollow Earth, such as Cyrus Teed proposed. It's syncretic of several 19th century theories & tales. The North Polar entrance will be via a maelstrom (thanks go to Poe); The South Pole via a cavern passage (the type Verne used, as well as HPL & others). Later in the scenario there will be means to get into the underworld from other locations as well.

The large central area will be Pellucidar-like in terms of flora & fauna and primitive tribes, but there will also be Vril'ya, reptiloids, Ghul (a la HPL), chthonic mushroom farmers, a lost antediluvian civ (a la Haggard), Agharthans, and another surprise or three.

About the tunnel graphics

The reason I tried this is I don't like the underground mountains in your preview. It just looks a little strange to have those underground.

I'll finish the prototype this week-end. I made the tunnels grey because it's a neutral color and it's quite easy to change it after.

There is no detail for the moment, but I'll probably try to get an 1959's Journey to the Center of the Earth (http://www.hyperbate.com/dernier/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/center_of_the_earth_1959.jpg) feel. I loved that movie when I was kid.. and I still do.

Any suggestion of the colors ? You seem to favor a quite black environment but does it work ? Don't units/cities seem too bright on it ?

Rings

My love of 1959's Journey is probably why I like this idea of the 1st ring so much. My knowledge of Pellucidar is quite limited as I've never found a good edition of it and I only know what I've read here and there.. and the first 20 minutes of 1976's At the Earth's Core (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/64/Earths_core_film.jpg) where's the journey to Pellucidar itself seemed so easy. Turn on the big digging machine, a few hot hours after we're there. Through the 1st ring, there is this trekking and exploring through an unknown land where man has (almost) never gone before. Then, the fantasy of Pellucidar can reward the courageous civilization that finally came through the 1st ring.

My concern with the rings is in scenario style. I want there to be some action between the various UCs - trade, diplomacy, but especially aggression. given that I want to keep the map fairly small the rings may be too narrow to allow this in any more than a "merry-go-round" fashion where there is only the ability to interact with one or two civs at a time.

A sound concern. I'll tend to enlarge the map enough to not feel cramped and allow Pellucidar UCs to have borders with more than 2 other UCs. SCs will anyway have to make their way through an almost conquered Pellucidar.

Civilizations

I somewhat missed the fact you plan to include H.P. Lovecraft's Ghouls into the mix. I like it!

What countries are you planning to keep for each continent ?

Germany: Verne's Prof. Lidenbrock is German, and German Empire is quite a good choice for a 1870-1915 scenario.
Iceland: Snæfellsjökull itself, the very entrance Lidenbrock used.
Italy: Stromboli underworld exit. I feel it somewhat less important. Maybe it could lead to 1959's Atlantis ruins ? I haven't read it but Casanova wrote an adventure in an hollow earth.
England: A classic choice for this kind of scenario. Plenty of literacy source.
United States: Poe's Arthur Gordon Pym, Edgar Rice Burroughs' Abner Perry and David Innes. Could lead to the underground H.P. Lovecraft's Ghouls.

For Africa ? For Asia ?

About H. R. Haggard, hasn't someone been tempted by an African Exploration (1850-1900) scenario ?

The reason I tried this is I don't like the underground mountains in your preview. It just looks a little strange to have those underground.
...
Any suggestion of the colors ? You seem to favor a quite black environment but does it work ? Don't units/cities seem too bright on it ?I didn't like them either. They were just a placeholder for however I end up representing the solid ground that separates the passages. I'm pretty sure I made it clear that it was a very preliminary WIP. If not now I have.

Obviously the solid ground needs to be background. As a general principle light colors stand out against a dark background. So the terrain of the tunnels & open spaces where the civs settle needs to be lighter than the bg. Only the truly chthonic civs such as the mushroom people will be settled in the dimmer tunnels/caverns. And their cities will be dark as well. The larger spaces such as Pelucidar, Aghartha, and the homeland of the Vril-ya are typically described as well-lit and will have more normal looking terrain.

As a suggested color scheme for your terrain: The walls should be dark, with whatever part of the tile set is completely surrounded by walls being the darkest. The tunnel floors a little lighter but still dim. Areas that are going to be more wide open can be lighter still. As the terrain gets lighter introduce more color variation. The mushroom forests can certainly be recolorized to fit whatever you do. My intention is to use something along the lines of Rhye's or Ares' terrain sets for the open areas, so blending toward those palettes would make sense.

What countries are you planning to keep for each continent ? The surface civs are going to be very abstract since they represent styles of exploration more than specific countries - I'll choose the civ traits appropriately. There will be the purely scientific like Aronnax or Lidenbrock (Franco-Prussia?), the imperialists: Stanley or Quatermain (Britain?), the two-fisted loners: Challenger, Dravot, Charles Remington (USA?) and a blended Oriental civ with a more religious orientation (SP versions of such RL explorers as Ibn Battuta and Xuanzang).

About H. R. Haggard, hasn't someone been tempted by an African Exploration (1850-1900) scenario ?
After making and uploading Balthasar's Lost Worlds & KingArthur's Steampunk World (Earth Map) scenario there may be a series of shorter scenarios with a shared structure: explore, fight the denizens, take victory points, flee with the princess/artifacts, and a simple space race (publish your adventures as various reports to the Geographic Society ).
Possibilities beyond Hollow Earth include:


Land That Time Forgot - a remote jungle-shrouded plateau.
Antarctica - "Mountains of Madness","Race for the Pole" and a lost race in a hidden valley with temperate climate.
Roof of the World - "Man Who Would Be King", "Lost Horizons", yeti, & the Great Game on the Tibetan plateau.
Dark Continent - An alternative Africa with rampaging Zulus & Mahdi fanatics, mummies, a lost civ or 3, rare flora & fauna to discover & return, and of course the fabled Mokele-mbembe.
Carpathian Horror Expedition
Barsoom
The Big Smoke - urban London.
Wild West

This is a very tenative "blue sky" list. There's no point in the team discussing them at length since they would get worked on only after the major scenarios are polished.

About the Blue Sky List (this is one of my favorite musings) - There are a few things on that list that already have little alcoves on my desk:

Barsoom could easily be spun off into a mod project. The map is DONE, and could be expanded to include the poles, and even the underground hideouts of the Firstborn. It needs a tech tree, wonders & buildings, and I'd do a custom interface. What it really needs is custom units, but we need those to complete the Lost Worlds mod anyway.

London is the exact opposite; everything is in place except for the map (and text files, of course). I assure you that making such a map would be no problem.

The Wild West: map complete, interface started. Due to popular demand, I've decided to open a thread for an old west mod based on the map, which has a working title of Goldrush! I'm doing this mostly so that other people can contribute to it; as Blue has noted, I won't be doing any major work on it myself until Lost Worlds is complete.

The Land that Time Forgot - well, we've already assembled an impressive list of Lost World units, and have the Pellucidar terrain (and perhaps bits of the Jurassic Park terrain) to work with. Supa's Apatosaurus, Plotinus' Mammoth and Tom2050's Sabre Tooth Tiger filled enough huge holes in the units category to make it really feasible. For full effect, I'd suggest that every nature beast be auto-produced, so that there would be a wider variety of them on the map during the game. Absolutely requires Giant Ants.

And of course, what obsessive graphics maker wouldn't drool at the prospect of making custom maps for Antarctica, Transylvania, or Africa?

The Blue Sky List isn't really a digression, and we've discussed it before. It is, I think, just a natural result of the tremendous resources we've managed to put together so far. We'd be idiots if it didn't dawn on us that we could do alot of other things with such tools.

And to be honest, I've only recently considered making a London map, as many of the tools I needed weren't really available until I made Manhattan. Such a thing would make a fine prequel to Lost Worlds, but the tech tree would need tweaking to remove, for instance, the Cavorite Sphere (alas!) and Rocket Ship. The Sphere could be a wonder, perhaps.

It's been fun reading the exchange between Blue and Supa; the two of you are in synch in a way that was completely unexpected. I have a feeling the Hollow Earth project will be making some major progress, and I couldn't be happier about it. Let me know if there's anything I can contribute to it, but I'd rather stay out of the planning stage; you guys know that material much better than I do.

I can't help but to be thrilled by all those possibilities. :crazyeye:

I've finished the prototype, you can see what it looks like.

Once again, there is no details. More variation can be attained with Mountains Forest and Mountains Jungle. Do you plan to use LM Mountains for something else than walls ? If not, there is another source of variation there.

I'm not sure I can make the walls higher without making them thinner. I may have an idea but I need to test it first.

For the Hollow Earth scenario every terrain slot is needed. Plains, tundra & grassland must be separated out into the cavern terrains & the open area terrains. That means many of the terrain overlays such as the various forest types will be used to create completely different terrains. The same if we're going to have hills & mountains in the places like Pellucidar. One way is to use plains & tundra (with related graphics) for the cave areas. Then one of the associated forest slots can stand in for the mts. Alternatively the lm mts. could have graphics that completely cover the grassland pcx. I haven't worked out what exactly I'm going to do. It depends on the final decisions about variety of terrain, where it's needed and how peculiar the graphics need to be to represent it.

The wip preview you showed is exciting. Some of the passages look a little narrow, not sure what can be done about that though. One way of making the walls taller might be to add some of the stalagmites to the top. This is just a quick CnP of my experiments based on Tsuga's terrain. The colors don't match and the pcx would end up taller than the terrain pcx can accommodate. But I hope it gives you an idea. I have made files with a lot of color variations including shades of grey. I can give them to you in their raw state if you like.

http://img704.imageshack.us/img704/6907/supastalageexample.jpg (http://img704.imageshack.us/i/supastalageexample.jpg/)

The more I see here the more I drool :goodjob:

Blue Monkey >

I guess you'll use Grasslands, Plains and Toundra, in the Underworld, as Dark Tunnel, Dim Tunnel and Light Tunnel ?

Alternatively the lm mts. could have graphics that completely cover the grassland pcx.

It could work if I put a terrain (plains) under the walls pcx. It wouldn't be perfect but it could work.

Could you point me to the passages too narrow ? Some narrow passages aren't actually passages at all. The game engine doesn't always take the best mountains connection to connect two mountains. I guess it was done this way to ensure some variations. I've explained it a few minutes ago in Thakhisis' Walls thread.

When you place Walls-Walls-Walls-Walls in a row in your map, sometime it will be displayed as [Wall-Connection-South][Wall-Connection-North-South][Wall-Connection-North-South][Wall-Connection-North]
but sometimes as
[Wall-Connection-South][Wall-Connection-North][Wall-Connection-South][Wall-Connection-North]

leaving gap in your 'wall'. You need to take this into account.

In my preview, you can see this on the upper wall, the one between the underground terrain and the surface terrain. First, the wall is continuous but then it finishes on one tile and begins again on the next. I placed a river there to mark it. It's not a big deal with this terrain because the gap between the two non-continuous wall doesn't seems big enough for unit.

Some passages are actually and a [Wall-North] tile and a [Wall-South] connection, without actual passable tile between.

I'll try the stalagmite proposition. It's quite different from a classic tunnel take but it doesn't look bad at all. I'm limited by the size allowed for each tile in the PCX. I won't be able to put any stalagmite in the upper side of a tunnel, for example. I was also thinking of making the front wall higher and keeping the behind wall lower.

I see what you mean about the pseudo-passages. That may be something that can be minimized by the way you build the graphics. I know that there is some small degree to which the overlays (mountains/forests) can extend beyond the frame on the pcx sheet. I think by just a few pixels, but it may be a useful exploit. Certainly worth experimenting with. Combining the front wall higher with darkening behind, like I tried to illustrate with my CnP, could possibly create a useful effect.

Re: Wall Sizes

The default pcx size is 128 x 64 pixels (roads, terrain buildings, terrain, etc);
Mountains are 128 x 90, and Hills are 128 x 70 (approx);
Jungles, Trees and Marshes are 127 x 87.
City height is unlimited, but blinks in and out if you make it too wide. Same with the Victory point; my experiments so far are unstable.
Resources are 50 x 50.

That's everything, terrain-wise...

So as a custom map you can't bridge the "gap"? This Question may be moot but maybe you could use such gap with over lapping pcx to have "secret" tunnels.

I'm not concerned with these gaps. They can always be explained away as dead-end tunnels or tunnels too narrow to be exploitable, or a tunnel with a fast streaming river blocking it and such things. A custom grassland.pcx would help too. Note that theses gaps cannot be traversed by any units.

If anyone needs grids for map-making, you can always check Incompetech (http://incompetech.com/graphpaper/)'s, they're very good - and free.

If anyone needs grids for map-making, you can always check Incompetech (http://incompetech.com/graphpaper/)'s, they're very good - and free.Have we really been talking about maps for three years? I think that's the first time we posted in the same discussion.

I still debate with myself about whether the minimap or the main map should look visually in proportion. I know mathematically it's the minimap, but if it's Earth geography the main map is more aesthetically pleasing to me. Does it really make a difference in gameplay?

Have we really been talking about maps for three years? I think that's the first time we posted in the same discussion.Forgot to include the quote to this post (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8814104&postcount=123), my mistake... but yeah, I've been lurking here for some time and you still go on about maps/terrain http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/1637/nodsmileyp.gif:eek:
I still debate with myself about whether the minimap or the main map should look visually in proportion. I know mathematically it's the minimap, but if it's Earth geography the main map is more aesthetically pleasing to me. Does it really make a difference in gameplay?
Hmmm... The main map is more important IMHO... I'm not sure how many people look at the minimap, I barely do myself. As it's colours can't be changed, it tends to misrepresent any non-epic style scen/recoloured terrain.

Would it be possible to split things off from post 146? :)

Would it be possible to split things off from post 146? :)Moved (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=367976). Any moderator can move threads or post(s). For future reference during the move they are inserted into the target thread in their original chronological order - which can split them up with other posts in between. Of course in this case there is no confusion because they moved as a block into a new thread.

Bathasars map is the best i think. only think i would do is i would try make the earth show at least some portion of the earth thats from real life. it might not be technically feasable to put the entire earth on the map and also include Luna ,Mars and atlantis. it help if i knew the dimensions of bathzars map. also dont forget that the Luna people are called selenites. i dont have this Civ3 game but if i can save up more money ill get it on ebay. but i want this 4 worlds on one map to get more hased out better. also im wondering is this game anything like Civ 2 test of time where you actually can play more than one map or is only one map hard codded on Civ3?

About civs for the Lost Worlds Map. Instead of Scotland and England how about League of Gentlemen led by Phileas Fogg and Secret Evil Society led by Professor Moriarty? There's possibly room for one or two more I would like city locations replaced with locations from fictional literature e.g. No. 7 Saville Row (residence of Mr. Fogg); 221b Baker Street (Holmes); Greystoke Estate (Tarzan - no idea where it was located though). If anyone can up with some more just post!


i know jack the ripper's location is revealed in the babylon 5 show. hes a guy on the show called the inquisitor. im not saying put any babylon 5 stuff in the game thats not steam punk stuff of cource. but you said city names can be locations and that was one of that i thought of. everyone keep up the good work. plenty of brain storming and thought going into this i never figured there be a team of players trying to come up with a master piece like this steam punk mod.

Does no one like the name Secret Evil Society then? Tell me, I can take it :) (The name actually comes from the Civ 2 Jules Verne scenario).

Maybe we need a vote- I'm a democratic kind of guy.

A. Blackcoats
B. Gentlemen of the Night
C. Brotherhood of Shadows
D. Secret Evil Society
E. Hilary Clinton ;)

i vote A. although im willing to go with D.

A.- cant be a unit name casue we got enough unit names in the game already and i like D.- casue it has a nice ring to it. i see you put in E. as a joke.
and brother hood of shadows might be too long of a name. seeing as how extra terrestrial property is on the map i agree with D. its very jules vern

You do know how to use the edit post function, right? Making a dozen posts in a row isn't fun.

i know that but i read all 146 posts and just finished now. took about 6 hours. now im ready for bed i have a job to go to later today in the afternoon. as it turns out the blue monkey guy did come out with a map that showed a earth and had other planets also.

Hi Necrop, we're working on various maps at the minute but the main effort up till now has been on Balth's Lost Worlds map - the earth bit in the middle is actually Britain - just turn your head sideways and you'll see ;). There are other maps being worked on as well - Balth is making something special but my knowledge on it is a bit foggy. We have the tech trees and everything worked out but putting all the pieces together is a monumental effort; however we will endevour to get something out before Civ5 comes around.

Jeez - I look away for a second and suddenly I've got every one of my regular subscriptions banging away like teletypes.

So - Necropolis - thanks for reading all of the threads. I've done that with this forum myself, just to make sure I remembered everything, and it's interesting to see how this project has developed and grown over time.

I've been working on an update of everything. Debugging proceeds, and there are still a lot of bugs outstanding, as the scenario has 512 units, and each has a biq rules entry, a pediaicons entry, a civilopedia icons entry, a civilopedia description, an upgrade path, a tech requirement, a Units 32 icon, a folder in the units folder, an ini file and various flc and wav files, and perhaps a resource requirement and a place in a particular civ's unit line. In addition I keep the unit lists I've posted updated both as a personal and public reference. I'm not crying about the work - to the contrary, I love doing this; it just sometimes is like unraveling an escher print. That's why it's taking so long.

Okay, that and the maps, which have taken up more time than I expected. That's why I'm going to set all my maps aside and concentrate on finishing the Lost Worlds debugging.

We still need a Propeller Island. I can't believe no one wants to take a crack at it. It's an island/aircraft carrier with propellers on one end. Add some victorian-style structures and perhaps some iron lattice-work for eye candy. At this point, anything that suggests a mobile island will do as filler.

Now I'm off to the ten-or-so other threads that have seen activity since I last checked....

How about pykrete ala Groffrey Pyke of WW II fame? Hey wasn't he commander of the Star Trek Enterprise?:crazyeye:

Floating Island discussion moved to Steampunk Units Request thread.

Thank you, Blue. I was just about to suggest that anyway.

How about pykrete ala Groffrey Pyke of WW II fame? Hey wasn't he commander of the Star Trek Enterprise?:crazyeye:

Christopher Pike, played by Jeffrey Hunter, was the captain of the Enterprise in the original pilot for the first Star Trek series, later used in the two part episode, The Menagerie. Geoffrey Pyke, the English "boffin", was the developer of the concept of the aircraft carrier made from ice, with the codename for effort being Project Habakkuk. It is not that bad an idea, but was a little late, as by 1943, the combination of cheap escort carriers using merchant ship hulls and very long range aircraft made the idea unnecessary. However, the idea would definitely have appealed to some of the grandiose thinkers of the Victorian era, who after the completion of the Suez Canal thought that any engineering feat was possible.

For your aerial aircraft carrier, how about adapting a ship like the Great Eastern? Also, you might want to take a look at the US Navy's experiments with Airship-launched fighters, the F9C Sparrowhawk, from the Airships Akron and Macon. Rather than landing on a conventional deck, the fighters hooked onto a trapeze and were then lifted aboard. A somewhat similar concept was used for the F-85 Goblin fighter that was designed to be carried as a means of self-defense by the B-36 Bomber. Instead of the trapeze and hook recovery, you could also use a probe and receptacle combined with a padded claw grab.

For more ideas, you might also want to take a look at some of the copies for both Scribner's and Century magazine from the late 1800s. There is a pretty complete collection of them in hard copy at the University of Wisconsin-Parkside, so I imagine that other university library's would have them as well. Copies also so up online for sale on a regular basis. Same with that copies of that vintage of Scientific American.

Hey TR51 I was trying a riff on Jon Stewart's SNL skit. Anyway the tread got split back to Steampunk unit requests so...

Hey TR51 I was trying a riff on Jon Stewart's SNL skit. Anyway the tread got split back to Steampunk unit requests so...

My apologies. I once watched Saturday Night Live for a few minutes sometime in the early 1990s. I must confess that I have no idea whatsoever as to who Jon Stewart is. I will cease to disturb you.

Didn't disturb me. I enjoy discussing our project. I don't remember the exact exchange, but in John Lennon's last published interview in Playboy magazine, the interviewer asked him if he minded discussing his songs. Lennon replied, "Why would I mind? It's what I do."

As to the Island; the object isn't to get an aircraft carrier, but to get the island, for literary purposes.

oops!:crazyeye: I meant Patrick Stewart but oh whatda!:crazyeye:

how many maps are compatable with balthasars lost worlds so far? how many maps will come with the mod pack when people down load it?


follow up message..

i know your just getting started but this work of art is somekind of master piece from what i gather casue work has been going on for years.
i would rather 2 maps after the septer and orbs one is finished. atleast make it so more then one scenario is included in the modpack using diffrent maps.

how many maps are compatable with balthasars lost worlds so far? how many maps will come with the mod pack when people down load it?

One. But we're just getting started.

Different scenarios with different maps, same team.

Here ya go!

cool map of Mongo when is that going to be in the game? how long till its rendered?

cool map of Mongo when is that going to be in the game? how long till its rendered?depends. depending. read the thread. read the subforum. that way we don't have to spend what little time we have for creative activities answering the same question repeatedly. answer: we are working on a series of scenarios - each could be considered a separate project with steampunk being the common theme. the only scenario near being finished enough for posted beta is "Lost Worlds". there will be an unknown number of other scenarios. most likely one biq per scenario. one biq = one map. Sceptre & Orbs already had Mongo as one of the planets since this thread started (read the first page or two ;)). that scenario is likely to be one of the later ones since it requires units, terrain, etc. that have yet to be created. some ideas openly discussed will never be finished. most likely something will show up that hasn't really been discussed. we don't do deadlines. that requires a contract & compensation. we work on this when we have the time, energy, and inspiration. ;)

are you kidding me? the actual amount of time you spend discussing details from the project is small in relation to the time actually building the game.free time is longer now adays due the the global depression. due to all the unemployment. just answer me and your other fans of your projuects , questions. over times the days we discuss and the years this thing gets worked on eventually we come up with a really great modpack. us fans of the lost worlds modpack dont want a stand alone map for a entire modpack we consider it a waste of good talent.

Here ya go!


the map does not depict enough detail to be captured on a giga map. i think this map could be like a septer and orbs concept and have moons or its nearest planets. if my memory serves this mongo was like a rouge planet traveling in our solar system so for all i know earth and mars were its nearest planets. buts its been nearly 10 years since i seen all of my fathers dvds on flash gordon serials from the movie theater in the 1930's to 1950's.

thing about flash gordon he did not live in far flung future of mid 21st century as we will live to see flash gordon lived in the past in the 1930's to 1950's he traveled to mongo in rocket ship made by a sceintist from that era. i remeber they were this 5 minute episodes on his DVD.

so my advice is if your going to do mongo then due septer and orbs map centered on mongo maybe have small crecent peice of earth on border of map. does not have to have real earth geograpy unless of cource that mongo is made so small that the cities on this map you presented are tightly close together.

are you kidding me? the actual amount of time you spend discussing details from the project is small in relation to the time actually building the game.free time is longer now adays due the the global depression. due to all the unemployment. just answer me and your other fans of your projuects , questions. over times the days we discuss and the years this thing gets worked on eventually we come up with a really great modpack. us fans of the lost worlds modpack dont want a stand alone map for a entire modpack we consider it a waste of good talent. On-demand results earn on-demand wages. ;) Since we do this for love, we'll take as long as it takes to do it with devotion & skill. And we'll tske as long as it takes for us to find the results satisfactory. We appreciate all who join the discussion. If you want a map we are not making, make it. I'm sure everyone will enjoy more contributions to the project. :coffee:

Necro, I hope you're being facetious. The Great Recession has made me busier scratching out a living, and since Congress decided that they'd rather pay for corporate bonuses than for my health care, I have that to worry about that as well. So much for free time...

"Fans of the modpack" will have plenty of resources when we're done, including dozens of custom units and a tech tree (with graphics) that could (and will) be applied to any number of maps. We just have to slog through this first effort. We're nearly at the very end of it now, tweaking Civs and trying to fill the last of our custom requests. That we've gotten this far is testament to the amazing talents and cooperation of everyone in the C&C forum.

So, as Blue Monkey said, while we appreciate your comments and suggestions, we would ask for a little patience while we finish this one up, and then we will surely value your input when playtesting and tweaking time comes along.

If I might chip in from a place which Reginald Albert Forman would call 'Not America'… many of us chip in with what we can from other countries, with different social and economic realities. Obviously a lot of stuff takes precedence over modding, and people without a job usually are moving in search of the next one, not sitting idly. So, please, be patient, or do it yourself.

And that's about enough discussion not directly relevant to world/map design. Back to topic for all of us. ;)

All the threads in the steampunk subforum are temporarily closed while we reorganize. Expect a reopening of a new, organized improved version soon.