Immortal Univesity VI: Carolus Magnus of the Holy Roman Empire [Archive]

Gliese 581

May 15, 2008, 06:15 PM

I decided to start this game early to try and make up for my slow playing speed, at least I'm on normal like everyone else now. Maybe that will make up for some of it. :goodjob:

Part 1 (4000 BC - 1040 BC):
Information on BW, AH, IW.

4000 BC: I settle in place, didn't ponder this one at all, three food resources and marble and lots of grassland, excellent starting spot. In hindsight it would have been better to settle on the marble though as futurehermit suggested, but only if I looked at the worldbuilder to see that that would have netted an extra corn.
I decide to delay building a worker since I have no worker techs and starting directly on a worker would mean alot of downtime. I start working the corn and building a scout while I tech agriculture. The corn is going to give +6 food with one citizen working it, the same surplus food that 2 citizens would get from working the 2 clams. Also, 2 fishing boats takes a long time to build and then you have to wait for a worker to get some production. I think going for Agriculture first is the best move here.

3760 BC: Meet Sury the turn after I see the edges of his borders, he's close. I pop a hut for 40 gold.

3680 BC: Determine exact location of Sury's capital, he's only 10 spaces away! Micro my city to get exact food for growing to pop 2 then maximize hammers which means..

3640 BC: Scout finishes 1 turn earlier, start on worker.

3600 BC: Agriculture finished, start on Mining. Sury is close and I'll 99% certain to rush him if possible so I want BW asap. In fact, I would probably have gone for BW asap anyway since it's just the best early tech period. My scouts reveals that we are probably blocked by Sury so let's pray for copper!
Hinduism founded in distand land.

3440 BC: Buddhism founded in distant land. Sury adopts slavery, damn that's fast.

3280 BC: Mining finished start on BW.

3160 BC: Worker finished, start on warrior. Worker moves to irrigate corn. After that is finished I move him to the marble to buld a mine.

2960 BC: I discover my first mistake, Sury gets his second border pop, denying my scout access to the lands to his east and north if I'd moved there one turn earlier with the scout instead of perfecting my scouting close to the capital I would have gotten past.

2760 BC: Worker finishes mine on marble and moves on top of a forest. BW is 4 turns away so I only lose 3 worker turns in total, that's acceptable. The Great Wall completed in distant lands, that was quick, someone might have stone in their BFC.

2720 BC: Warrior 1 & 2 finished, start on settler. The first warrior moved north to fogbust.

2600 BC: Finish BW, discover that copper is close! Start on The Wheel.

http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn131/Gliese5812/Charles0001.jpg

I decide to settle 1S of cows as Aachen will get it's 2nd border pop to claim the copper and corn which means I wont have to bother with a monument in my second city. Sury built Angkor Tom a few turns earlier on top of the gold, that will have to be razed later.

2480 BC: Settler finishes, start on worker.

http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn131/Gliese5812/Charles0002.jpg

2400 BC: Effing barb archer threatens my expansion so I halt my settler for a turn hoping he'll move off. If I settle right beside him he'll attack and my warrior has low odds of defending the city with no culture or fortification bonuses.

2360 BC: Some luck! The barbarian moves north and I settle Prague.

http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn131/Gliese5812/Charles0003.jpg

The barb archer is now 1 space outside my cultural borders which is a big difference to him being inside it as it's still to early for him to be allowed to move inside my borders and hence he's deleted from the game (I think).
Prague starts directly on a barracks since it needs no culture pop as explained above. I finish the worker in Aachen and starts on barracks their as well.

2280 BC: I gain intel on Sury telling me he's researching IW. This tells me two things. One, he probably has contact with another civ since I got intel so fast. Two, he's probably missed getting copper since he's going for IW already despite not having much jungle to clear. This is excellent news.

2240 BC: Finish The Wheel start on AH (for Prague's cows).

2200 BC: Aachen finish barracks starts on another warrior to fogbust some more.

2120 BC: Aachen finishes warrior, has 1 turn left to grow to size 5 so I build Stonehenge for some money, then switch to worker the next turn.

2040 BC: Stonhenge built in distant lands. I cash in 10 gold.

2000 BC: Aachen gets its second border pop, workers starts to mine the copper.

http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn131/Gliese5812/Charles0004.jpg

1880 BC: Finish AH, start on Fishing. Finish barracks in Prague and the third worker in Aachen and start building axemen in both cities.

1760 BC: I continue building axes, Judaism founded in distant lands.

1680 BC: Finish fishing, start on Pottery. Sury is done with IW around this time.

1560 BC: So you want to hear some stories of early Mids? :eek:

http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn131/Gliese5812/Charles0005.jpg

Yeah, probably stone in someones BFC, maybe stone+ industrous.

1480 BC: Revolt to slavery to whip the last units. Workers have been busy chopping forests.

1360 BC: I have the possiblity to snag two workers and kill an archer protecting a settler in open lands. I ponder early dow but decide that the settler might actually do something useful for me and build a city in the spot I want on the west coast. Also I don't need more workers right now and my economy is going down the drain.

1320 BC: Sury patrols borders with an axeman. I guess he got some iron.

1240 BC: Leaving the settler pays off as Sury builds Nagara Jayasri exactly where I hoped he would. Discover swordsman in Angkor Tom so Sury's got iron indeed.

1160 BC: Dow and move in with 9 axemen and 2 spears.

http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn131/Gliese5812/Charles0007.jpg

I also snag the worker by Angkor Tom.

1120 BC: I reach the capital and is a little disheartened.

http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn131/Gliese5812/Charles0008.jpg

1 axe 1 sword and 2 archers, also on the SW hill he's got 1 axe and 2 archers for a total of 7 troops to my 9 this could be a disaster.

1080 BC: Christianity founded in distant lands. The Oracle built in distant lands. For some reason Sury decides to move the troops outside his capital away from it rather than reinforce it. Thanks, I guess. I have some luck with the attack only losing 3 axes. I keep the city. Nothing special in it, just a granary.

http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn131/Gliese5812/Charles0010.jpg

1040 BC: Finish Pottery, start on Writing, start building some cottages. Also discover what must be an iron mine on the plains WNW of Angkor Tom and move to pillage.

My troops are healing up in the captured city, I suppose moving north might be the next move to ensure there are no strategic resources there for Sury to utilize. He has two axeman wandering around to the SW and SE of the captured city as well as two swordsmen in Angkor Tom and several spare archers all of which I need to keep an eye on. I got a large bounty from his capital so I can spam troops for a while still.

Well finding that copper was a sigh of relief, this is quite a nasty start. It will be interesting to see how those who went fishing first are going to cope.

JBossch

May 15, 2008, 07:03 PM

til 550BC:

Here goes...

Silverbullet's idea about forgoing the seafood is interesting but after consideration I have to go for fishing for the commerce. If we are going for the oracle I really think tech is more important than hammers right now. The spot looks great and I am in no way inclined to move the settler.

Opening techs were:
Fish-->Mines-->BW-->Poly-->PH-->Wheel-->Pottery
Opening builds were: warrior(partial)-->WB-->WB-->warrior(finish)-->worker-->warrior

3840BC - popped 32 gold from a hut.
3760BC - meet Sury, find his borders a couple turns later. It looks like an axe rush for sure. Can I still do oracle?
3440BC - Sury switches to slavery - did he pop BW from a hut?
3200BC - meet HC
2880BC - BW is in, immediate revolt, whip worker next turn for 2 pop. (I feel like my timing is really locked in here.:))
1800BC - Oracle is in same turn as pottery and I take MC. Until the turn before I was actually working 1F, 2C ocean tiles. All the forests meant hammers were no problem but I was real worried about missing it due to slow tech pace.
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/JBossch/Civ4ScreenShot0011.jpg

Here's where I get a little silly.:crazyeye: I whip a forge and start running an engineer while building/chopping axes. Crazy? Perhaps. We will find out.

725BC I DoW Sury w/11 axes and head north.
And in 850 BC I get...

A GE! (at about 50% odds)

and a few turns later (I still had to tech masonry because I really didn't think this would work)...
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/JBossch/Civ4ScreenShot0013.jpg

So in 575BC the mids are in. I revolt to Rep and settle a GG I got from attacking Sury's capital.
The next turn I take Sury's capital. (He had killed a pile of my axes and I was worried about taking it but then he abandoned the city the next turn! Stupid, stupid Sury.)
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/JBossch/Civ4ScreenShot0015.jpg

I also took this:
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/JBossch/Civ4ScreenShot0014.jpg

Here's a shot of my upstart empire:
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/JBossch/Civ4ScreenShot0017.jpg

And here is a shot of the distressing tech situation:
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/JBossch/Civ4ScreenShot0016.jpg

So I consider it a successful if tenuous start and I definitely need advice.

Q's:

1) How much further should I push this war? My Axe rush has bogged down and I will need to regroup but reinforcements should be doable. The city just to my north looks like an easy/necessary target but the one Sury idiotically founded on the gold to the north will be a hassle. I can't even see where his iron is yet. I am thinking about bleeding him for techs in a peace treaty or two before he can get feudalism and vassal to his religious buddy HC.

2) I am really unsure how to proceed diplomatically. I feel like I have little choice but to trade with Joao (possibly for IW to find Sury's iron) even though I hate unloading MC to a tech beast so early. What about switching to Hindu for improved relations with HC? This seems dumb but how long until Joao's Judaism spreads to me?
Edit: I just looked at the religion screen and realized Judaism is 30% of the world and I don't know where it is founded. Who else has Joao met? This is a big question and makes me worried. Maybe I will hold out for Judaism though. They sound like the club all the cool kids are joining.

3) Economically, I am thinking about a pretty full-on SE. Does anyone see a good Bureaucracy capital if I were to make my capital a GP farm? Sury's old capital looks like a great IW city to me so maybe there. Let's see if any of the cottage-lovers can talk me into them.

4) Long term, I am thinking medieval LK war against HC leading into absolute military belligerency on my continent supported by Rathaus's.:D I briefly considered bulbing machinery with my GE but couldn't pass up the mids. Someone said "screw machinery" earlier but don't we need that for engineering to unlock LK's? With the mids and a forge perhaps bulbing machinery is still an option.

Thanks again to Silverbullet for hosting. Advice from anyone, expert or Immortal student like me, is appreciated. I, as always, reserve the right to ignore it all and take my own crazy/disastrous path.;)

Rusten

May 15, 2008, 09:47 PM

Absolutely loving this map -- quite a challenge compared to some recent games in every way. :D Too sleepy to put down anything right now, but I will later.

silverbullet

May 15, 2008, 11:05 PM

Played 51 turns 1880 BC. I am looking for some feedback before I continue since this seems like a tough game and I am not sure I am doing well.

Research: fishing->mining->bw->wheel->agriculture->AH->??

Settled in place, research fishing, build warrior.
3840 - we meet Sury

Poped fishing from a hut :( at least better than a map.
Switch research to mining, start workboat.

3680 - we find the Khmer border:
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk162/silverbullet_sz/Charlemagne/Civ4ScreenShot0002.jpg
Very close... I hope we can rush him or else we will be boxed in.

3480:Mining -> bronze working. Aachen: Workboat->worker.

3200: meet huayna capac and he is hindu founder.

3040: meeting Joao, luckily Sury settle his 2nd city north.
2920: bronze working done, agriculture next
revolt to slavery.

Complete the warrior in Aachen and build a settler at size 3.

2440 - Prague founded
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk162/silverbullet_sz/Charlemagne/Civ4ScreenShot0004.jpg

Ready to hook the copper. Animal husbandry done.

Empire status 1380 BC:
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk162/silverbullet_sz/Charlemagne/Civ4ScreenShot0007.jpg
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk162/silverbullet_sz/Charlemagne/Civ4ScreenShot0006.jpg
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk162/silverbullet_sz/Charlemagne/Civ4ScreenShot0008.jpg

Wonders: GW and stonehenge built by Joao.

I plan to go for pottery->writing next, unless someone will come up with a suggestion not to do it.

JBossch

May 16, 2008, 01:27 AM

@silverbullet:

So you opted for fish as well, eh? I almost went for ag first and I was kinda hoping you would do it so we could compare. For an early rush it might still have been the best play. I was just thinking oracle at the time.
It looks like you are doing ok to me. Just build/chop axes like crazy and wail on Sury. My rush went in late because of wonder silliness but the earlier the better I'm sure. I assume by your teching that you have given up on the oracle. I got the idea from you but I took it in 1800BC so it is probably too late. Have you started building axes yet? I figure they are your (and everybody's) only option.

What do you think about diplo? I am waiting for help on this myself so my only advice is axes. I traded settlers for wonders and let Sury build my cities for me. I think you are in a good position to own him though. Both your cities can build axes pretty quickly. Just chop, whip, chop.
Good luck with the war!

Dirk1302

May 16, 2008, 05:30 AM

@silverbullet, spoiler till approx 1000 bc.

How many axes do you have atm? Sucks bigtime that we've got a one dimensional start like this again but at least we learn how to plan and execute our early rushes to precision. I'd build/chop as many axes as you can and wipe Sury of the map, then the tedious process of recovery will begin again. Be sure to research at least writing before the rush.

Edit: i see copper hasn't been hooked up yet so no axes. If i read the screenshot correctly it's the overview of your empire 1880 BC instead of 1380 BC?

silverbullet

May 16, 2008, 06:30 AM

Dirk: thanks for pointing this out, I forgot to attach the save and the overview in my previous report and it is indeed from 1880BC (turn 51).

I have played a few more turns until 1040BC

I think I could have planned the rush better - I could have settle on the gold instead of the copper - my capital popped the 3rd border before Prague popped it's 2nd border, so I didn't really need to place prague there. I could have gotten a happy resource and more commerce to support a larger army.

At this point my economy is already crashing and I think i will get a strike situation if I march with my SOD out the cultural borders.

Sury has had a chance to build a respectable defence, and he settled in the wrong place :mad:
Ideally I would raze this city and build it 1S or 1N.
I could also build my own gold city before the rush hoping to get some money out of it.
I also started building 2 cottages, because I already need them to support my 10 axes and 1 spear.

I am starting to think that the game is either lost or at least going to be very very difficult because of my settling mistake for prague.

Maybe I should build a settler now and settle it here before the rush.
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk162/silverbullet_sz/Charlemagne/Civ4ScreenShot0010.jpg

Finances:
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk162/silverbullet_sz/Charlemagne/Civ4ScreenShot0011.jpg
As far as I understand the mechanics, if I have more population I can support a larger army before unit costs kick in (NOW I see why charismatic great :)).

Sleepless

May 16, 2008, 09:42 AM

First Report - 875BC

I decide to settle in place and start off building a scout first whilst teching fishing. Hut popping bought me a scout and a map so no help there although I did find HC and Joao's lands before my scouts met there maker.

Obviously with Sury close and no real room to expand it would be a case of attack. The question being what with? So techs path went AH, no horses was hoping for a very early chariot rush. Mining, BW the Wheel and Sailing. Not learnt much for 3500 years study. :)

I hit even more problems early on.

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh168/SJG12345/ImmCharlie/Civ4ScreenShot0030.jpg

Sury settled really close early. Even worse so did the barbs on the West side although there is a plus point now. ;)

Well the plan was to attack Sury but he had other ideas. :lol:

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh168/SJG12345/ImmCharlie/Civ4ScreenShot0032.jpg

Seemed like he wanted to attack me. :eek: No chance of his stack going for the barb city so obviously coming my way. Once they were adjacent to my borders I attacked, lost a couple of axes but defeated his units. I usually use CR promotions but I'm intending to use C1, Shock as you can see from the next screenshot. :D

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh168/SJG12345/ImmCharlie/Civ4ScreenShot0033.jpg

Unusual to see an AI city without archers this early. I will be promoting my next axes along the CR line though. Now I've got the problem of facing a prolonged war so things not looking good at all. I'll have to see how it goes from here but not feeling very optomistic. At least I get double points for GG so I should have an early Woodsmen 3 healer from upgrading my warrior, I'm going to need him sooner rather than later. :lol:

Shurdus

May 16, 2008, 11:17 AM

Cool, I will try this one tonight and post it. :D

patagonia

May 16, 2008, 11:27 AM

Immortal Charlie (Redux) - part one (to 875BC).

As my abortive spoiler above suggested, I took an early stab at this yesterday and came a cropper. I'd settled in place, settled Prague 1S of the cows and attempted an axe rush on Sury, declaring on him in 900BC with a stack of 13 axes, all of which died assaulting his capital, prompting me to resign from that game.

This being my second shot at the map, I knew I was going to have to rush Sury with a pile of axes, and knew I was going to have to do so ASAP, which meant I was able to play the early turns a bit more effectively.

I tried not to deviate too far from the path I'd followed first time around, settling in place and researching:

agriculture > mining > bronze > wheel > AH > fishing > writing (partly done)

while building:

warrior/worker/warrior/settler/worker/barracks (stonehenge until copper was online), followed by axe after axe. I got the preparation done slightly quicker this time around, and by 1080BC it was time to pay Sury a visit:

http://img391.imageshack.us/img391/954/civ4screenshot0000jk3.jpg

My stack of 11 axes razed a size 1 city he'd built on the border a couple of turns earlier that was defended by a solitary spear. They then pressed on to the capital, while a couple of reinforcements a turn behind went to pillage his iron mine by Angkor Thom. Then the RNG decided to have a bit of fun at my expense:

http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/9082/civ4screenshot0001uj9.jpg

A visit from Atilla the Hun's what I get for starting this game again. Both my cities had finished an axe that turn, and I wasn't in slavery so couldn't get any spears built before the capital got attacked.

Needless to say, the following turn:

http://img379.imageshack.us/img379/8835/civ4screenshot0002ta9.jpg

I'd diverted a couple of axes heading north when I saw the Barbarian attack and they were able to recapture Aachen the following turn, putting an end to the barbarian threat, but it's thrown a spanner into the works in a war that's been going much better than my first try.

http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/5791/civ4screenshot0003qj0.jpg

An axe in Sury's capital that didn't want to die made taking it an expensive business, but I've got 10 axes in there ready to press on with the war next turn. I'm planning on heading north to eliminate his cities in that direction, before doubling-back to eliminate him by razing Angkor Thom (something that'll obliterate most of my remaining troops since it's on a hill with walls).

One interesting point the early loss of my capital has thrown up is that its location has been moved "free of charge" so I'm in reasonable shape to chop the Great Library there and turn Aachen into a GP farm if I can get to Aesthetics in time.

futurehermit

May 16, 2008, 11:33 AM

^^^OMG :lol: man that is unfortunate :(

tycoonist

May 16, 2008, 12:04 PM

played through to 775BC and i think its going bloody well!:

initial tech path was agriculture -> mining -> BW -> wheel
i ignored fishing for a long time and just chopped out two settlers and an army at double quick time
first city:

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s240/kingmadmushroom/Civ4ScreenShot0014-2.jpg

2 gold and food!!! i just had to beeline this one. notice how little i beat alien's settler by! however that settler went onto settle my next priority so my second settler went to this spot:

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s240/kingmadmushroom/Civ4ScreenShot0015-2.jpg

good production initially. will probably get Moai eventually and be a fishing village/production.

so i chopped out an army of axemen (and boy do i mean chopped) and invaded. i took out the city which his settler seen earlier had founded (angkor thom) which was in a perfect position. i healed and marched onwards to the capital and took that at the end of the turnset in 775BC. a view of the empire:

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s240/kingmadmushroom/Civ4ScreenShot0016-2.jpg

so i feel like i'm in a great position to either solidify and beeline CoL or push on in the war. thoughts?

patagonia

May 16, 2008, 01:01 PM

@ tycoonist:

That's impressive speed to get 3 cities and all those axes out by 1120BC! Did you use the whip at all?

I'm never sure if it's worth it or not. I know Mutineer was a big fan of 2-pop whips to get an axe rush going, but is that the best way when you've got a low happy cap and high production cities?

I'd be inclined to press on with the war in your position. Sury's still got 4 cities and will cause you serious cultural/unhappiness problems in Yasodharapura (which is otherwise a terrific production city) if you leave him be now. You've still got enough axes to take 1-2 more cities quite easily if you keep going.

The other thing to consider is that you've got -1 from Huayna for declaring on a friend already. Running HR/sharing a religion, he's easy to befriend, but it may be worth avoiding building up too many negatives with him.

tycoonist

May 16, 2008, 01:15 PM

@ patagonia

didn't whip even one axe. as i said, i chopped them all out. the capital is quite high production so i was making one every 1.5 turns. call me old-fashioned but i still can't think of a better way to get an army of axes out quickly.

as for the settlers, they weren't whipped either. the capital was actually really good despite the lack of starting techs. so at pop 2 i could produce a 7-turn settler working farmed corn and mined marble. initial build order was worker -> warrior -> settler, which is IMO one of the best. i knew i would have to make an early land grab or alien would punish me for it. i was however lucky at the position of the copper which i was able to mine and work as soon as my borders popped.

patagonia

May 16, 2008, 01:28 PM

Immortal Charlie (Redux) - part two (to 500AD)

Quite a long set this, but there didn't seem to be a good time to stop until now. This game is certainly proving to be a wild ride!

Part two got underway with the continuation of the war against the Khmer.

http://img369.imageshack.us/img369/2416/civ4screenshot0004rk4.jpg

9 v 5 wasn't ideal, but the city being on grassland made all the difference and from then on Sury didn't put up much of a fight as I razed his remaining 2 cities, capturing a bundle of workers in the process. Finally, in 500BC:

http://img368.imageshack.us/img368/3076/civ4screenshot0006ob3.jpg

I won two GG in that war (God bless Imp), one of which is settled in Prague (HE city) and the other of which is sleeping, ready to make a medic 3. I was hoping to get access to horses for a super-mash unit, but may have to settle for doing the same with a scout.

I then made a slightly haphazard attempt to get the economy afloat, firstly by razing a misplaced barbarian city N of Prague which missed the clams, then by capturing another barbarian city (Polynesian) which would seal my lands off from the north, thanks to the mountain range across the rest of the continent. In the meantime, I met Gilgamesh, suggesting that we're in a 5/2 or 5/1/1 split and that this is quite a big landmass - one I desperately need to explore. Unfortunately exploration had to take a back seat, because the fighting wasn't done:

http://img357.imageshack.us/img357/1451/civ4screenshot0008vi6.jpg

Our friendly neighbourhood Incan must have taken umbrage at me snatching Polynesian from under his nose and declared a turn later. Fortunately for me, his army was all melee and I had a stack of CR3 axes in the city, so I abandoned it and slaughtered his stack the turn after. He wouldn't make peace for quite some time though and I had to send out a pillaging stack of axes to loot his villages for money to avoid a strike. Eventually, I limped to Aesthetics and was able to give him that to stop the war rather than the city of Polynesian which he'd wanted earlier.

I wasn't sure aesthetics was the right move, since it certainly wasn't going to help my failing economy directly, but the marble had put the Great Library into my head and I was hoping the loot money from the Khmer war would get me there. I did beat the other 3 to it and was able to backfill maths, polytheism and sailing, whilst using my first GS who arrived at about the same time to bulb alphabet so that I could start building research instead of units I couldn't afford.

I did some pre-chopping around Aachen, and pretty much as soon as Literature was discovered:

http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/8333/civ4screenshot0009bq7.jpg

This is where I stopped playing. I'm a long, long way behind in tech, and also struggling in land too, which shows what a tight corner we started in considering I've taken all of Sury's territory.

http://img391.imageshack.us/img391/3586/civ4screenshot0011sr8.jpg

Not sure what the best route on is from here, whether to go for Monarchy first (everyone's favourite civic), or to stick on the currency/CoL path. Any further war is going to have to wait, possibly until rifles, and Huayna's just built the SoZ so I'll have to hope that's nearby if I'm going to try and expand through him. Any advice on getting the economy competitive or good routes to lightbulb greatly appreciated.

Sleepless

May 16, 2008, 01:34 PM

- 125AD and not going good :)

As expected the war with Sury dragged on. I decided to bypass the gold hill city and go for the capital which I managed to take. Then it has been a long slog and finally I took the hill on the gold this turn (why I didn't raise it I don't know :blush:). The highlight of the round.

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh168/SJG12345/ImmCharlie/Civ4ScreenShot0002.jpg

I don't think I will be worrying about WFYBTA in this game. :lol:

Current Tech Situation.

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh168/SJG12345/ImmCharlie/Civ4ScreenShot0005.jpg

Demographics.

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh168/SJG12345/ImmCharlie/Civ4ScreenShot0006.jpg

My new lands. ;)

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh168/SJG12345/ImmCharlie/Civ4ScreenShot0007.jpg

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh168/SJG12345/ImmCharlie/Civ4ScreenShot0008.jpg

And finally a view of the capital. Not very impressive is it. :lol:

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh168/SJG12345/ImmCharlie/Civ4ScreenShot0009.jpg

So the first Sury war is over, he has iron again (not that I know what it is :)). I've managed to trade for a couple of happies so I will be whipping Libraries and running scientists in most cities. I had 3GG in this game so far made 1 super warrior and settled the other 2. Other positives I'm now +1 gold at 0% science. Losing a lot of my units taking the gold hill city last had something to do with that. How to dig myself out of this hole? All ideas welcome. Looks like the philo bulb would be the best bet. How long it will take me to get there will be another matter. :lol:

I have a grand total of 2 workers so another priority, already scrounged some gold from Joao, need HC to get currency and hopefully get some of his.

Reading some of the other reports there are some good games out there so carry on the good work. :goodjob:

Dirk1302

May 16, 2008, 01:41 PM

Until 580 AD

I played till 580 AD but i haven't got time to post atm so i'll just post the save.
I'll post some details + further saves tomorrow. I rushed Khmer, they're dead 175 BC. Economically i'm in the deepest pit of all the Immortal students installments sofar because i haven't even got sailing 175 BC. 580 AD i'm slowly crawling out of the abyss.

Sleepless

May 16, 2008, 01:47 PM

@Patagonia

The philosophy lightbulb should get you a few techs (thats what I'm relying on) :). Education usually has good trade value as well and you can beeline those techs. Having the GLib helps big time in this. :goodjob:

I think we are both in the same position though I share HC religion so he might not attack me. Good luck in whatever route you take though.

JBossch

May 16, 2008, 03:59 PM

Diamondeye

May 16, 2008, 05:17 PM

When rating the Landsknecht, make sure you consider that the 100% against melee/mounted does always affect the defender.

This, in practice, means that in defense, the Landsknecht is deadly against knights as well as maces, but not by much (12v10 against knight, 9v8 against maces). A Combat I + Shock mace can still be dangerous (10.5v8.8 when Landsknecht defends, 6v4.85 when mace defends, without terrain.) In order to cause serious damage, you will need siege. lots of it.

And, keep a lookout for crossbows, those are any landknechts nightmare (apart from rifles :rolleyes:)

tycoonist

May 16, 2008, 05:21 PM

Landsknecht is one of the most overrated units IMO. it has no attacking value, it is only a great stack defender.

Dirk1302

May 16, 2008, 06:26 PM

@Tycoonist, tend to agree with you, Landsknecht's only good against maces, i think i mostly ignore and go for drafted muskets.

@JBossch, highly original what you did. I just haven't had the time to react. I am not too scared about recovery from war but this one is a bit harder than most for some reasons which i'll go into tomorrow.

JBossch

May 16, 2008, 06:49 PM

550BC-75AD:

A short but crucial turnset. My goals were to 1) at least get the two of Sury's cities north of my capital, including the crappy one built on top of the gold; and 2) trade my way to a tech situation that will buy me a little time.

First, the trades:
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/JBossch/Civ4ScreenShot0018.jpg
this put me at pleased with Joao.
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/JBossch/Civ4ScreenShot0020.jpg

And heres the resulting tech situation, though I am certain to fall way behind again real soon.
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/JBossch/Civ4ScreenShot0021.jpg

Then this:
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/JBossch/Civ4ScreenShot0022.jpg
I accept the highlighted option since I plan on building a quarry.

275BC - I finally meet Gilgy who is Judaism's founder and trade MC again. (note the -1 for my DoW on his "friend" Sury.)
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/JBossch/Civ4ScreenShot0023.jpg

:mad::mad::mad:
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/JBossch/Civ4ScreenShot0024.jpg

Why me? These 2 negative events are exascerbating what is currently my greatest weakness: a lack of workers/underdeveloped terrain and an over-reliance on my capital.

On the plus side, I take a marginal city:
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/JBossch/Civ4ScreenShot0025.jpg

225BC - A look at the diplo screen shows Joao is already back to cautious. So much for getting him on my good side with trades. Is the speed with which this disappeared a factor of immortal or Joao or both? Did trading it to another do this? Frustrating.

I am not sure this is a good idea considering MC unlocks HC's industrious forges. Whatever.
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/JBossch/Civ4ScreenShot0026.jpg

Note: I have thus far traded MC for IW, Alpha, Ag, Maths, Monotheism, Monarchy, and Archery. I also did Alpha for sailing and AH.

25BC - #*&%@$!! Joao built the GLib!:mad: I was so looking forward to 2 more Rep scientists. This really pisses me off even though I know I contributed to the situation by trading MC.
The next turn Parthenon is BIAFAL. Great, my marble is basically worthless except for Nat. Wonders.
On the plus side, my axes guarding Sury's old capital crush a counterattack stack.

75AD - The Battle of Angkor Thom:
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/JBossch/Civ4ScreenShot0028.jpg

I have no siege and am well aware I am about to eat it hard.:rolleyes: Some Holy Roman axemen's mothers will be grieving tonight.

My stack is wiped out besides 2 axes and 2 swordsmen but I take and raze the city. I take peace while I regroup for another attack on Sury's last 3 cities.
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/JBossch/Civ4ScreenShot0030.jpg

So I basically achieved the goals I set out for but I don't know if it will be enough. Losing out on Glib sucked; I was 1 turn away from Aesthetics which I ground my way through for 12+ turns. I am currently getting minimal benefit from the mids. All of that silliness cost me a much cleaner shot at Sury. I am currently teching CoL to start working boatloads of scientists in my capital but what I also really need is construction and cats to finish Sury.

Also negative:
- I still have too few workers.
- I should have had a settler ready to found the gold/sheep city but I forgot and will have to wait a couple more turns. This is my #1 priority.
- Joao and Gilgy are gonna love-fest their way into a huge tech lead.

Positive:
- Trading MC got me a lot of essential techs.
- Sury and HC, my main targets, are both backward.
- Just got a GG which I will probably use for a super-medic

Sorry if I provided too much detail on such a short turn set. Any suggestions are appreciated. I feel like this game is really in the balance, though the experts might already know I am screwed.:lol:

Olodune

May 16, 2008, 07:37 PM

I'm curious to read all the spoilers, but first:

Charlemagne, Chapter 1

Up to 525bc

To move onto the marble? I decide not so much...

Tech is Fishing->Mining->BW->Ag->AH->Pottery

Aachen starts by maxing growth to size get to size 2, then wb->wb->worker->warrior->setter.

Very quickly we meet Suryavarman, and the challenge of this game is immediately clear. The nice thing about being on the end of a Peninsula is that barbarians aren't much of a problem so we can focus on growth and tech. As such, our first city claims the double gold/sheep site, and the second claims the copper/corn.

I think there are actually two reasonable openings from here. Axe rush, or tech (with the gold) to Catapults. Suryavarman settles the floodplain cattle site, and so I decide to at least take that city from his rotting fingers. I should mention that he went into Slavery very early and has a plains mine which means that he has iron. Luckily, it is located right next to our border and can be pillaged on the first turn of the war/skirmish.

In we go:

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj294/olodune/In_we_go.jpg

Two axes fall at the first city, and we march on to Yasodharapura:

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj294/olodune/batt_yasod.jpg

Rajavihara follows, and finally Hariharalaya:

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj294/olodune/Hari.jpg

We also teched through Alphabet (which Huayna demands and gets :mad: ) so there is no immediate risk of complete stagnation.

Our acquisitions:

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj294/olodune/cities_over.jpg

We can get peace from the Khmer (who only have two cities remaining)

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj294/olodune/peace_question.jpg

So the question now is, should we? Or should Surya just die? If we get peace should I take any of those techs? (Iron working is tempting ... )

Rusten

May 16, 2008, 07:49 PM

4000 BC -> 375 BC.
Settled in place and put research to Agriculture. While the commerce with seafood is tempting fresh water corn is worth the same as working both crabs food- and production-wise early on. Further we have an open hill for mining so to leverage imperialistic I decided to work hammer tiles and get a fast settler rather than put effort into work boats and commerce.

In hindsight I’m very happy I chose this approach because being boxed in by a creative civ like this means every turn counts. By teching Agriculture -> mining I was able to start a settler (eta 7) at size 3 and make it first to this killer city site.

http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/5741/ch130002dg6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

I teched archery early for safety. I couldn’t know we’d have bronze and after nailing the gold site I knew I had a chance to keep up even without metal and a rush so I chose safety over gambling. Further I wanted AH as soon as possible in order to get food for the gold and BW would take a really long time and slow me down a lot.

But sooner or later BW becomes a priority and copper pops up within my borders. :)

http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/3568/ch170000pc2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

While I could squeeze myself forward tech-wise a rush is a far better move in a situation like this. Suryavarman has neither horses nor copper.

However something unexpected happens 15-1600 BC – Suryavarman has already researched Alphabet! Wow, that’s pretty huge for an immortal AI. He went for an impressive beeline lacking some early techs. I decide to postpone my rush and make some trades instead. I finish writing and set reseach to 0% while getting a library in the capital and the gold city and follow up with rushing towards aesthetics.

- Get a slave revolt 1160 BC. I hate that event.

- 875 BC A GS is born in one of Suryvarman’s cities :eek:

Finished Aesthetics and part-researched Alphabet and make the deal with Suryavarman 700 BC – the same turn I declare war.

- I give Aesthetics to Joao for IW for trade but also to avoid letting Suryavarman bribe him into war with me.

I kept upkeep at a minimal while teching and got 5 workers instead of making axes slowly. I made up for the latency of units by chopping several forests over a couple of turns just before war. Suryavarman did hook up iron, but only 2-4 turns before I attacked and I pillaged it right away so I easily pushed forward taking 3 cities including his capital by 525 BC.

- 450 BC I take another city which leaves him at only 1.

http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/6401/ch290001gq2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Instead of wiping him out I get greedy and make a nice trade instead. HR will be very handy.

http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/8852/ch300000oy5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

JBossch

May 16, 2008, 07:54 PM

@ Olodune:

Now thats how to do an axe rush :goodjob:
I was originally planning on bleeding Sury for techs but ended up solving that problem differently. I would take IW at least. Both of the others could be useful depending on your plans.

Olodune

May 16, 2008, 08:04 PM

@JBossch

Thanks, but I think I'd prefer an Oracle+Pyramids combo, nicely done :goodjob:

Rusten

May 16, 2008, 09:11 PM

375 BC -> 500 AD
This game just kept throwing new challenges and problems at me – very enjoyable. I prefer a good struggle over an easy game, even if I might end up losing in the end.

While waiting for the peace treaty with the Khmer to expire I moved some of my axes northeast and took a barb city. While teching currency and CoL I met Gilgamesh – and yikes, he sure is advanced (even without me trading with him).

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/4052/ch320000om9.jpg

Did anyone say Hereditary Rule? (soon Suryavarman will be gone)

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/4804/ch330000up8.jpg

150 BC My peace treaty expires, but I get some bad news.

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/6484/ch340000kk5.jpg

Bah! :twitch: :aargh: 2 awful things at once (well 3 if you count the bow thingie) – I even had a GS ready for philosophy.

Even if it means getting a lot of negative diplomacy points with Gilgamesh I decided to declare on Suryavarman, his culture is just too annoying right now.

- 75 BC Currency is in and the economy safe for good.

- I decide to go for literature next. It’s very cheap and we have marble. I’ll definitely need the GL in order to catch up with Gilgamesh.

- 25 BC Take his biggest city from before but he has another NW of his former capital by now.

- 25 AD The Khmer civilization has been destroyed.
- Wheat to Joao for 8 gpt.

- 50 AD Trade crabs to Gilgamesh for 6 gpt.

- 100 AD Complete the Parthenon in Vienna.

- 125 AD Start getting our UB everywhere while the capital finishes the GL.

I decide to lightbulb philosophy even if I could possibly trade for it later. Gilgamesh doesn’t have it and he’s ready to trade CS so I go for it.

Tech situation 450 AD.

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/5748/ch39450ad0000bh1.jpg

I’m having trouble getting an upper hand here, but once world maps are traded I understand why – talk about imbalanced starting locations.

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/9566/ch400000fx9.jpg

Sheesh! Joao and Gilgamesh has had an incredible amount of land available and Gilgamesh even has 3 gems and riverside corn in his capital’s BFC. Somebody better go tell him this is no HoF game.

- My main problem atm is that I haven't founded a religion and Huayna/Joao refuses to send missionaries. Not being able to use Pacifism with a non-philosophical leader can be brutal at times.

Olodune

May 16, 2008, 10:09 PM

Charlemagne, Chapter 2

525bc-620ad

Well despite finishing off Suryavarman this set, I still have a big hill to climb.

Realizing that Surya was in HR meant I delayed our peace by a few turns so I could pick up some prereqs. Soon we get a nice peace deal:

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj294/olodune/peace_Deal.jpg

And 10 turns later we run in to finish him off:

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj294/olodune/finish_sury.jpg

Rebuilding time :rolleyes:

Lets start with a key tech:

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj294/olodune/cod_l.jpg

I was actually a little disappointed with the Rathaus -- as usual Currency + markets would have been the stronger move. Lesson learned.

By 620 the Holy Roman Empire is hardly omnipotent.

Overview:

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj294/olodune/620_over.jpg

Tech Position:

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj294/olodune/tech_position.jpg

And the (very telling) demographics:

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj294/olodune/demo_graph.jpg

Well some more rebuilding is in order. Yasod is building our National Epic, and will go GSci farming in 6-7 turns (we have yet to generate a GP or build a wonder ...). Luckily HC is the weakest of the three so we should be able to take is land during the renaissance. At least that is the idea. :mischief:

Rusten

May 16, 2008, 10:19 PM

Olodune;

I was actually a little disappointed with the Rathaus -- as usual Currency + markets would have been the stronger move. Lesson learned.

Agreed. I decided to let the UB go until after currency and literature. Courthouses don't do so much in general early in the game. The building cost is really high and the population count usually quite low making it ineffective. This UB shines late game and not when CoL is researched. It helps tremendeously in lowering for instance corporation costs (especially if you're in enviromentalism).

While it is certainly useful to pay the bills during a renaissance war landgrab its true strenght is later on imo.

It seems we have a lot of similarities in our games (and even posting times ;))

Olodune

May 16, 2008, 10:21 PM

@JBossch

Some Holy Roman axemen's mothers will be grieving tonight.

:lol:
That is the story of the early game for sure.

I also missed out on the Great Library, and don't know if I can offer much advice .

Olodune

May 16, 2008, 10:29 PM

@Rusten

My scouting axe is still about 5 turns away from the Sumerian core, but I just saw your screenshot of their capital :cool: :eek:

This game is far from over.

Rusten

May 16, 2008, 10:37 PM

@Olodune;

This game is far from over.

Of course, maybe I got off as pessimistic in my report, but I still see my chances (and yours) as very good. I'm only surprised by not having a bigger edge after playing a very solid start. Sometimes the map just gives you a position from behind but like I said earlier -- I'm enjoying this set-up a lot -- more so than an average immortal game.

Edit: After looking at your tech screen you seem to a be a little behind, so maybe you're struggling a little more than me, but it's still decent. With some lightbulbing and focus you can take out (cheater-)Gilg.

Olodune

May 16, 2008, 10:47 PM

@Olodune;

Edit: After looking at your tech screen you seem to a be a little behind, so maybe you're struggling a little more than me, but it's still decent. With some lightbulbing and focus you can take out (cheater-)Gilg.

My tech position should be much better once the Scientists start flowing -- I should have run more Scientists sooner, so I could use the Philo bulb and trade. Still I should be fine -- winning liberalism is still possible.

Your games continue to teach me a lot, thanks for posting.

I agree that this is a fun game :goodjob:

@Dirk

Nice move with the Palace relocation -- I'll have to see if something similar makes sense in my game.

@silverbullet

A strike as soon as you enter, eh? If you can make it to the first city, pillage gold should keep you afloat for a while ...

JBossch

May 16, 2008, 11:53 PM

75AD-1040AD:

OK, kind of a long session but I promise I am done for the day. Really want to let others catch up and see what they have going on.

I really needed to 1) finish Sury this session; 2) light the Menorah with Judaism; 3) pop some GS's; 4) and not suffer any more negative events/crap luck. I think I achieved 2 or maybe 2 1/2. I don't know if it will be enough.

200AD - GP born. I was hoping for a GE but I just settle him in the capital to get something out of Rep. Prague is founded on the gold site.
225AD - Nice! HC DoW's Joao.
250AD - HC demands Aesthetics, I refuse.
- Its a world war! Sury DoWs Joao, Gilgy DoWs HC
- I trade for construction.
300AD - I sell Monotheism to Joao when he asks. Does it help diplo much to accept these type of deals? It is not a demand, just a kinda weak price. I was thinking about gifting it to him anyway so I accept.
- I get the tower shield event giving all my melee units cover! Finally, some luck with events.
325AD - I DoW Sury and send my stack in as soon as peace treaty can be canceled.
350AD - I get Judaism and put on my Yarmulka the next turn!
400AD -
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/JBossch/Civ4ScreenShot0037.jpg

Whatever you say, Jewish overlord Joao. I accept even though it kills my trade routes as HC is blocking me from Joao and Gilgy.:mad:
HC asked to cancel deals with Joao right before and I refused.

425AD - CoL is in and I revolt to CS and OR. (Judaism is only in 1 city and I want to crank a couple missionaries. Too bad no whip:()

560AD - Gilgy builds AP. I abstain from the vote and it is: Joao 170, Gilgy 166, and my 6 abstentions. I actually have control over who heads the AP and this should only solidify as I spread Judaism. I don't actually know who I want in.
- I trade CoL for calendar w/ Joao

A shot of the frightening tech situation w/Gilgy:
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/JBossch/Civ4ScreenShot0039.jpg

What is he doing over there! I can't see anything in my "friends'" lands.

EDIT: Just saw the screenshot of Gilgy's capital. :eek: Do yourself a favor and don't peek. You will want to cry.

720AD - I start this round off with a little more of my typical luck.:mad:
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/JBossch/Civ4ScreenShot0040.jpg

Arrgh!

On the plus side I finally finish Sury this turn.

740AD - Double ARRGHHHH:mad::mad: Another GP is born at ~10%. I really need a GS!
760AD -
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/JBossch/Civ4ScreenShot0041.jpg

:lol: I don't think I have ever had so many events. Most have been bad but I can't complain about this one even if it would have been more useful earlier.

Somewhere in here I figure I can make a run on HC's southernmost city. As soon as my stack pokes its head in he tries to outflank me with a massive but outdated SoD. (My units are outdated too but heavily upgraded.) I let him take Harihalaya and then send in my CR promoted cats, swords and axes (plus all those cover and shock promotions). The result is a massacre and I get a reasonable peace deal out of HC.:cool: Annoying to lose the couple buildings in the city but man, you should have seen the carnage.

I am the first to CS this turn and I can't whore myself out fast enough.
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/JBossch/Civ4ScreenShot0042.jpg

I also traded it to Gilgy for 3 techs but I forgot a screenshot and can't remember what they were. It helped a lot though.
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/JBossch/Civ4ScreenShot0043.jpg

920AD - I finally get trade routes going with Joao and Gilgy. This was probably my stupidest mistake so far but I am a bit mystified by how this works. I had established a trade connection a bit before but couldn't really see any of their cities. Once I could, trade opened up and my GPT got about a +50 boost! I definitely should have realized this this earlier. :blush:
980AD - I trade paper for philo w/ Joao and revolt to pacifism and bureaucracy.
1040AD - I am about to throw a party!! My first GS is born! I bulb him for education (now 3 turns left). An academy will have to wait if I want any shot at Liberalism.

I hope I can squeeze something out of my ramshackle civilization. The effects of Rep are definitely beign felt but my overall tech rate is nothing to get excited about. I still have not built NE in Aachen (doing it now). It got held up with the whole burnt down forge event. My infrastructure remains crap but at least the worker situation has been resolved and they have made great strides.
My plans for the near future are to move my capital to Yasod and make this my HE/IW city. Still no cottages but the hammer bonus will be through the roof and he can work a couple scientists in the meantime.
Finally, I would really like to upgrade my veteran melee units but I have no idea where I will get the cash. GM from Free market is a long way away. I don't think I can afford switching from scientists to merchants for that long but maybe once I get NE up. I still really could use GS's.

As for some self criticism, the trade route thing was pure stupidity on my part.
Also, at the risk of :cry: about stuff that can't be helped now, I really think missing GLib hurt me bad. Besides helping my tech rate, it likely would have resulted in 3 GS's by now. Oh, well.

What a game! It is definitely not over.

Sleepless

May 17, 2008, 01:17 AM

- 1240AD

Things still not going great but I've not given up. ;) As soon as the last war finished he vassaled to HC so ending the plan of taking him out. :sad: Reading other peoples reports it seems I'm the only one he attacked. Good move by everyone who settled the gold/sheep city I was a little bit too late and Sury had already settled there. Not just the city but having to take it as well was a big pain.

So where to go from here? I haven't built any new cities, my tech rate is really bad, I'm not used to this. :lol:

Good news. I managed to build the GLib and thats it.

Current Tech situation.

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh168/SJG12345/ImmCharlie/Civ4ScreenShot0014.jpg

I used GS's to bulb philo (although Joao founded Tao in the BCs) and Education. Virtually everything I've learnt has come from trades using those 2 plus Aesthetics. There is one AI I haven't met yet so hopefully I will have something on them. ;)

Demographics.

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh168/SJG12345/ImmCharlie/Civ4ScreenShot0015.jpg

All I can say is awful. :lol:

I'm thinking the only chance I have is to draft rifles and attack HC/Sury. The main trouble being at the moment Nat will take 29 turns to research, as for RP and rifles probably get there by 1900. :lol:

patagonia

May 17, 2008, 03:40 AM

@ Sleepless:

I'm fully expecting my tech situation to be on a par with yours by the time I get to the middle ages.

It looks like (JBossch's game aside) there are 2 main starts everyone's played out - those who were able to beat Sury to the double-gold site and those who weren't and had to settle for a 2 city axe rush. The former is obviously a much stronger opening, but totally dependent on how the AI behaves.

I think you drew the short straw in this game by having Sury gear up for war with you at the same time as you were gearing up for war with him, making the whole thing that much harder. My barb HA uprising event was inconvenient, but didn't have as great an impact on the way things have played out.
@ All:

After seeing Rusten's report, I might create a WB save and replay this as Gilgamesh at a later date.

Shurdus

May 17, 2008, 03:56 AM

Ok a surprise visit caused me to start a little later, but I found out something funny.

The way Charle's units talk closely resembles my local dialect, it sounds so funny to hear it in Civ. :D

Sleepless

May 17, 2008, 04:44 AM

- 1660AD

This about explains everything. :)

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh168/SJG12345/ImmCharlie/Civ4ScreenShot0020.jpg

Just slightly behind. :lol: At least I've been able to trade with Sal a little bit. Hopefully I will get rifles from him as well at some point. I made a big mistake in changing my mind from rifles for drafting to trying to play peacefully instead and try for the internet and space. Notice the lack of rifling except Gil who has infantry. :eek:

Some good news.

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh168/SJG12345/ImmCharlie/Civ4ScreenShot0019.jpg

I've nearly finished Railway so that helps.

More good news. HC/Sury declared on Joao and Cathie on Sal so as long as I can keep Gil happy I should be safe. I would be very surprised if I can pull this one off but still hoping. :lol:

Sleepless

May 17, 2008, 04:51 AM

@Patagonia

Your not wrong about the gold site. :) If I had settled there before Sury he would have been much easier to take out, his other cities fell quite easy then as soon as HC got feud he voluntarily vassaled to him. He still has 3 reasonable cities and I would have been in a much better spot if I could have taken them as well. Perhaps I should have declared on him regardless of HC but we live and learn.

My tech rate in this game has been a joke although it is now improving a little bit. The other plus side I'm still living so there is still hope. :lol:

Sleepless

May 17, 2008, 06:45 AM

-1834AD

Well the original plan was to go for the Internet and try for a late space win. Luckily I'm still able to trade techs like so.

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh168/SJG12345/ImmCharlie/Civ4ScreenShot0021.jpg

My plans have changed slightly and this will give a slight clue. ;)

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh168/SJG12345/ImmCharlie/Civ4ScreenShot0023.jpg

So much for the peacful route. I've just declared on Sury and therefore HC. I was very surprised on capturing his first city what was in there.

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh168/SJG12345/ImmCharlie/Civ4ScreenShot0022.jpg

The SoL, I thought Gil had built it but now its mine. :D Joao is still at war with HC so that will keep some of the pressure off me. Sury is down to 1 city he did have 3 but 1 revolted to HC.

So still some hope left in this game. The only one not involved in a war at the moment is Cathie but I expect her to attack Sal again soon. Gil has built Apollo and the docking bay so I'll have to be careful of his launching. I'm still planning on going for space but need to trim HC's cultural cities down a bit first if I can.

Dirk1302

May 17, 2008, 07:28 AM

Proper overview until 580 AD, save's on page 2

I started with the fish, It's good for early commerce and once you have the boats up the worker'll come out sooner. Wrong again on this map though as i miss out on the double gold spot. We're boxed in again so again a rush is neccessary. It's really strange that we've got these early rush situations on almost every start, in my offline games this scenario doesn't occur too often, could be that i just zapped away a few of these starts because i really don't like them.

I plan to build the second city 1S of the cows, i can work the copper immediately since capital borders pop again in time.

But

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s256/dirk1302/Barbcity1.jpg

First unlucky event i get, just as i'm about to fogbusth the place a barb city appears forcing my second city in an unfavorable spot. I also got a slave revolt some turns later, that happens almost every game so i don't think too much of it.

Researchwise i get to writing then set the slider to 0%, apart from the crabs i haven't got any commerce going and even at zero science i don't make much gold.Even researching pottery would take forever now. Doesn't matter that much, now is not a time for cottages.

I chop everything, as capital becomes unhappy at 6 i time a worker to precision, building it to 29 hammers then 2 pop whipping for free axe. Ready 900 BC with a rather large stack of axes. I have 5 more in reserve already.

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s256/dirk1302/Invade-Khmer.jpg

I invade and the rush goes smoothly, at the cost of other things i really made sure of getting enough axes to finish Sury off in resonable time. I know where is iron is and pillage it quickly,then somewhere around 750 BC Khmer gets the event that gives archers combat1.

That sucks, i'll have to make sure to have a big stack for every city i attack. Nothing as bad as losing 5 axes and not taking a city. Without this event i could have split stacks i think but not now. Finally BC 175 BC i take the last city. In my game Sury didn't have alpha so no need to let him live. In the process i have razed three cities so my empire consists of 6 cities now

I'm losing money at 0% research economically the situation is worse than in the other rush games, in the Monty game i got alpha from Louis. In the Cyrus game i had 3 early towns and intercontinental trade. Also enough gold there to make it to COL. Now i'm empty handed.

i begin with sailing, because it immediately helps with trade routes, i'll have to take the barbcity in the northeast also to get coastal trade going.

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s256/dirk1302/Barbcity2.jpg

75 BC sailing is in but my cash diminished. If i go COL from here i won't make it before cash runs out and with only some scientists it'll take ages to research. I can just make it to alpha though and then i can do something useful with the now useless production.

Just make it in time and as a bonus i can trade it to Capac for Math. I don't have any use for math now but it'll help bulb philo once Col is in. With the production set to research in all cities i get COL in 8 turns, bulb philo immediately.

Finally my luck turns, both Joao and Gilga research to CS and i can trade philo for it.Also Huyna declares on Joao.Together with currency, we are finally going somewhere 580 AD.

Plan from here is moving the capital. The old capital will get NE soon for bulbing (i'll switch drama for poly,lit from the save i posted).I also think i put globe here for drafting but not yet sure. Research is still low and i'm not totally sure if i'll get lib this time. On the good site,Capac is already backward and if i virtually add up his land to mine i should have a chance. As opposed to the Monty game for instance i don't consider this game won yet. I have 3 reasonable spots left to settle , don't think i'll wait too long, rathouses come in handy here. May need some extra workers as well. I'll try to get some techs from Hyuna first, then i'll switch to confucianism.

Overwiew:

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s256/dirk1302/North.jpg

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s256/dirk1302/South.jpg

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s256/dirk1302/Resources-1.jpg

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s256/dirk1302/Civics-1.jpg

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s256/dirk1302/Glance-1.jpg

Rusten

May 17, 2008, 07:44 AM

500 AD -> 1170 AD
- 600 AD Spawn another GS -> part-bulb education. I have the NE in Aachen by now. I decided to make it a base for specialists rather than cottage it. I was thinking of moving my capital but I never got around to it as my riverside grassland cities didn’t have much commerce yet.

- 800 AD I get another one but I have already completed Liberalism (left it at 1 turn). I was thinking of picking Steel with it but shortly after pausing I decided to complete it and take Nationalism instead (820 AD). We have marble so I might as well make the Taj.

I’m not looking forward to the upcoming war vs Huayna. The distance is unsettling and I don’t have horses so I can’t make up for it with my beloved cuirassiers. :( I decided to go for Grenadiers instead and follow up with cannons. After making some trades for the backfill techs (engineering, guilds and machinery) I lightbulbed chemistry and finished Military Science during the GA. I’m now at 1170 AD and about to declare on Huayna. My current force consists of some grenadiers (being produced in several cities), some LKs and some Trebs. I think I won’t need Steel/cannons for Huayna so I’ll just tech it slowly during the war and keep producing an army. The good thing about imperialistic and a lower visit to the tech tree is that you can get a lot of military academies making unit production much easier.

- I upgraded 2 of my axes along the way. It was quite costly, but they had CR3+C1 unlocked so I went for it regardless.

Here’s the tech screen as of 1170 AD. It’s looking very good, but I’ll probably lose my lead during the war. It’s going to be a logistics nightmare with 1 move units over such vast territory.

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh206/Rust1/chtech0000.jpg

Here’s my current SoD. I will dish out a grenadier or two every turn with use of the whip and HE (Vienna). I have adopted Vassalage and Mercantilism.

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh206/Rust1/charmy0000.jpg

I have made more cottages than I usually do this game for a number of reasons.

- none of our traits are good for getting buildings up and running (creative, expansive).
- I haven’t been able to unlock Pacifism.
- We’re not Phi.
- Not much food until calendar.

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh206/Rust1/chcottages0000.jpg

Currently got a Caravel out scouting for the remaining AIs (2nd one eta 1 turn). I doubt they'll have anything to offer me right now though seeing as I'm at parity/slight lead with mr. 3-gem.

Rusten

May 17, 2008, 07:51 AM

@Dirk I wouldn't know how often you skip starts like this, but I concur with the fact that they happen way more often than normal in these threads. It's quite unfortunate because they're not my favourite either. I enjoyed this one though because it's much more difficult than the former starts.

Dirk1302

May 17, 2008, 08:00 AM

@ everybody up to 550BC:

I think I am only crazy idiot to build oracle and GE rush the mids. I am taking the lack of comments to mean I am screwing up pretty bad.:lol:
Everyone seems to be real worried about the way their rushes killed their economy but if there is one thing I learned from the last Immortal University, it is totally recoverable. You may have to: 1) delete low-promoted units; 2) Build the GLib and Bulb like a mofo; 3) cottage (though I will be running Rep specialists:cool:). I am sure it can be done.

Seriously though, has anyone given much thought to diplo in this game? I am still in the BC's and haven't met Gilgamesh yet (saw it in other posts though) but I really don't feel like joining with HC only to DoW him down the line. I have MC from the oracle which I will probably trade to Joao.

Well, I am off to see if I can take Sury out.

until 500 AD having met all the leaders i think on the continent

Intriguing post, if you were one of the leaders in the game i'm sure one of your traits would be creative. A genuin oracel-Mc-Pyramids gambit.

Indeed an economy is always recoverable in the end, it's important though how quick you can get back on track. The way you played it you won't have much problems recovering as you have MC as a trade tool to get some essential techs and specialists you run'll pull their full weigh.

I'd be worried at the pace your war is going, every turn in war'll cost you due to unhappiness, need to keep on producing units, culturally pressed cities. I looked at your 75 AD save and also at your second spoiler until 500 AD and some Khmer are still alive. You're running a potential risk of Khmer vassalizing to someone.

In my game i simply couldn't build anything when Khmer died so i couldn't do the things you advised, no cottages (didn't have pottery), certainly no GL miles away from lit. I don't like deleting even low promoted axes, they only cost 1gpt and apart from providing real defence it boosts power which is rather important with all the leaders cautious towards me and in different religions.

As for diplo, in my game hinduist Huyna declared on confucian Joao which was lucky, confucian Gilga won't join because he shares civics with Huyna.

Dirk1302

May 17, 2008, 08:05 AM

@Rusten

this start is indeed difficult and enjoyable as a consequence. I sometimes skip these starts indeed. I have also played Pangae for a while to look for these sorts of starts, in that case i was mostly experimenting what the best rushing methods were seldom playing the game to the end.

I just like blocking games alot more because I love the planning involved.

Gliese 581

May 17, 2008, 09:07 AM

I could use some feedback on my position.. how am I doing, how to proceed?

Part 2 (1040 BC - 175 AD):

I just continued building axemen with the exception of getting two workboats out of Aachen (which equaled production of axemen in the long run too).

875 BC: A rich source of tin is discovered in the hills 1S of Prague. Man I love this event. :goodjob:

775 BC: I work some cottages to stay afloat. Hariharalaya to the north that I planned on attacking is at 40% defense and massing troops but I discover that Nagara Jayasri that I let Sury build on the west coast is only defended by 1 axe and 1 archer. I mass my reinforcements for a little while until I have 6 axes and then attack.

http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn131/Gliese5812/CharlesB0000.jpg

He had time to get two more archers in and I fail to capture the city in the first attack. Half my axes are killed and one badly injured archer remains in the city.
I get my first GG in Prague which I settle there. I will make Prague my HE city.
The next turn my axes attack Nagara Jayasri again. Sury actually gives his surviving C1 archer an intelligent promotion given the circumstances (shock), but it is not enough to keep the city.

http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn131/Gliese5812/CharlesB0001.jpg

725 BC: Finish Writing, start on Sailing. I move to pillage some mines by Surys northenmost city Angkor Wat. I'm pretty sure he has no strategic resources left though since he's just been building archers everywhere.

650 BC: Mahabodhi built in distant lands.

525 BC: Hariharalaya (Goddamnit I'm just gonna call this city Harry from now on) has 7 archers and 1 axe which is quite troubling. Sury makes another stupid move here though by moving some of them into open country adjacent to a group of holy roman axemen. I get some free kills.

450 BC: Hanging Gardens built in distant lands. Our stone builder at it again..
Then it's time to make my assault on Harry.

http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn131/Gliese5812/CharlesB0002.jpg

12 axes and 1 spear, all of the axes with 2 promotions of varying effectiveness for attacking cities, 1 axemen injured. Sury has 8 archers, half with 1 promotion. This might be close.
It was indeed..

http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn131/Gliese5812/CharlesB0003.jpg

My last unit, the injured axe, kills Surys last archer to capture the city on the same turn. Another GG is born in Aachen, I send him to Prague and settle him. Some people might argue that I should have settled him in Aachen to get two cities spawning level 2 units since I'm still going to be at war for some time.
I prefer making a super HE-city though. Since we're imperialistic, it's not unrealistic to get a third GG before the war is over and with 3 settled GGs and theocracy or vassalage, Prague can produce level 4 units. That might be invaluable in the long run.

425 BC: Sury adopts Hindusim. TOA built in distant lands (actually quite close as I was soon to find out). Confucianism founded in distant lands.

375 BC: The Great Lighthouse built in distant lands.

350 BC: Find out I'm the 6th largest civ. AP built in distant land by a buddhist civ.

325 BC: Meet HC who is Hindu and have the Hindu holy city, he's also the one who built the TOA earlier. He's grumpy at me for attacking Sury although I didn't know him at the time. I open borders with him.

http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn131/Gliese5812/CharlesB0004.jpg

225 BC: HC DOWs on Sury giving me some diplo benefits. I capture and raze Angkor Tom on the east coast since it was built on top of a gold but I get really unlucky and lose lots of units at low odds.

http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn131/Gliese5812/CharlesB0005.jpg

This delays my attack on Angkor Wat.

200 BC: HC capture Rajavihara, Angkor Wat is Surys last city now.

http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn131/Gliese5812/CharlesB0006.jpg

175 BC: SoZ built in distant lands.

125 BC: Finish Sailing, start on Masonry. I settle Vienna on the east coast to get the happiness and commerce from the gold.

http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn131/Gliese5812/CharlesB0009.jpg

The filler city in the middle is less interesting now since I've decided to move the capital to Harry (-2) food there only I think, more central and Aachen is by far the best candidate for a gp farm. In retrospect I should have moved Vienna 1W in view of this.

1 AD: SP built in distant lands. Lots of wonderbuilding this game. Sury founds Isvarapura on the east coast to the east of Harry.

25 AD: Meet Gilgamesh, who is jewish and have the jew holy city. He makes me feel like a backwards barbarian.

http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn131/Gliese5812/CharlesB0011.jpg

You can see by his civics he also has at least Monarchy on me (probably more). Fortunately he's friendly with HC so I sign open borders.Signing open borders with HC was probably a mistake but my economy felt a bit desperate.

50 AD: Church of Nativity built in distant lands.

75 AD: Gilgamesh adopts Vassalage. :eek:

150 AD: After some feints HC decides to move in for the kill with a SOD he's been massing outside Angkor Wat, my army is there of course but it's not strong enough to capture Angkor Wat yet so I'm hoping that HC will soften it up for me.

http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn131/Gliese5812/CharlesB0012.jpg

I have 8 units ready. HC attacks with 8 spears and 4 axes (what's with the spears?). Sury has 5 archers and 1 axe.

175 BC: HCs attack fails as expected, still a great relief though as Angkor Wat is quite a nice city and in a strategic position. I capture it without losing a single unit. What about razing it and putting a city 1N instead? I don't think that's the best move at this point. When you're strong you can mess around and perfect your city placement but I don't have the time. The current position gives the city fresh water at least and there's a village on that sugar 2S and I'm not going to keep Isvarapura.
A third GG is born in Aachen and sent to Prague to be settled. I trade my only crab for gems to Gilgamesh and my only sheep for pigs to HC.

How to proceed from here? Masonry is 1 turn from completion, what should I research next? I've been thinking TGL gambit and hope that HC doesn't have Aesthetics and that he'll pick up Alphabet so I can trade it to him for some tech. Gilgamesh has had Aesthetics for some time though and might go for TGL himself, although it doesn't seem like he's been going after many wonders, at least he's not gotten any thus far.
I've prechopped and roaded all 6 remaining forests around Aachen so I can probably build TGL in a single turn with the marble, at least if I can trade for maths first.
My first GS will be born in Aachen in 5 turns. What should I do with him? I'm thinking best case scenario might be to bulb him for Alphabet if I can trade Aesthetics for Maths with HC, what do you think? An academy should definitely be placed in Aachen if I do that..

Tell me how I'm doing here, is it bad? Unfortunately I can't read about your games yet. :sad: I already discovered Joao is in the game from reading patagonia's first spoiler so I don't want to spoil more information. Please consider that if you advice me on where to go next.

Gliese 581

May 17, 2008, 09:10 AM

I can't change the BUG settings in this game for some reason, anyone know why that is? I tried several times but nothing happens, not even after I restarted the game. Are you supposed to save your changes somehow in the BUG interface? I can't remember how it was the first time I set them (in another game). In any case I can only click on an exit button in this game.

Rusten

May 17, 2008, 09:46 AM

@Gliese I'll try not to give you any info you can't know already. First observation is that you really need to finish off the Khmer soon. You know that Gilgamesh has Feudalism (vassalage) so you're at risk of the Khmer choosing to become a vassal state (happened to me 175 BC).

The good;
- (+) diplo with Huayna for shared war.
- You're getting gold at 0% science with a lot of money left.
- You'll get the second gold mine soon.
- Have a lot of land to work and mature.

The bad;
- You're lacking Alphabet so you can't build research.
- It's 175 AD and you're still at war.
- You're very backwards lacking all the post-rush techs.

Other;

- You could settle the GG in your drafting city (if you already have a plan for where that will be). With a MI and a barracks you'll be able to get a promotion right off the bat (and with protective you can choose pinch right away).

- Why are you getting a monument in Aachen?

- The GL and the NE is HUGE with a non-philosophical leader when you're trying to catch up. If you think you can get it I'd go for it, but it is quite late so it's not guaranteed.

- Might be a good idea to pillage that cottaged sugar tile within the Khmer borders. It has a village (!) and you're going to have to make a plantation over it later anyway.

Overall you're doing OK -- it's not lost yet. You have a lot of land to work peacefully and with some lightbulbing and good trades you can find yourself on par with the AIs later.

Dirk1302

May 17, 2008, 10:13 AM

@Gliese 581

From the games i've seen your game resembles mine most. I was quicker finishing off khmer but you've got pottery already and working some good cottages.We both have no post rush tech (alpha,col,currency) at all. I agree with Rusten's post, finish Khmer soon. You mentioned bulbing alpha, if you're trying for GL i'd do this i think, you've not enough gold as it is to reach aesthetics and lit soon but with alpha and production-> research it just might work. It's a huge gamble,Ad's already,Huyna industrious. if you miss out you you'll regret it dearly. And actually you don't need GL here (though it would be nice of course), your capital can sustain some 8 GS anyway later.

silverbullet

May 17, 2008, 10:50 AM

Hi, this seems like a very challenging start, and I am really not sure how to continue, or maybe I have already made some irrecoverable mistakes. Can someone please look at my last save and give some advice?

Link to My last report from 1080BC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6826448&postcount=14)

Thanks.
I always appreciate your advice.

Rusten

May 17, 2008, 11:04 AM

@silverbullet
Suggest you set the corn and forest tiles to coast instead in Prague and the grassland hill to the lake in your capital. You'll need every bit of commerce there is and it will help before you get the cottages up. By working the coast and lake you get writing in 3 turns and can then set research to 0% gathering up some gold for more unit upkeep in addition to pillage/city loot the Khmer. You'll have +12 gold as things are right now by working the lake and coast.

I see that you have AH ready, so you could also choose to keep a settler ready to settle the sheep and 2 gold after razing Suryavarman's misplaced city. I wouldn't suggest settling another city before the rush -- you've already made a lot of axes and every turn you postpone attacking you'll lose a lot of money on unit upkeep. If you choose to get a settler in Aachen you might want to postpone working the lake until after it's finished and set it to the Corn instead.

PS: You have a lot of forests left, it's usually better to chop out axes as they will come faster -> meaning less time paying for them before you attack.

Edit: If you look at his tiles you'll see he has 1 plains with 1:food: & 2:hammers:. Might be a good idea to pillage that early, it must be iron as you would see it if it was horses or copper.

silverbullet

May 17, 2008, 11:16 AM

@silverbullet

PS: You have a lot of forests left, it's usually better to chop out axes as they will come faster -> meaning less time paying for them before you attack.

@Rusten:
Thanks for the quick reply.

I actually tried to chop as much as as I could, but I wanted to get all mines up first and didn't really have time to chop much before I already had a large army.
Do you suggest chopping before building mines/farms? or building more workers?

Rusten

May 17, 2008, 11:26 AM

@silverbullet
Probably should have at least 3 workers here as there are so many forests, but on other maps 2 might be enough. The output of chopping forests is unmatched this early. You definitely want to mine the tiles you'll be working, but other than that chopping is the way to go. In my game I didn't start on Axes until ~1000 BC due to some special cicumstances, but that didn't stop me from having ~10-15 axes at the point of declaration (700 BC). This was possible due to having many workers. It reduced the amount of turns I had to pay unit upkeep by a lot.

tycoonist

May 17, 2008, 11:28 AM

continued to 820AD:

beelined crucial techs by running two scientists in most cities. key techs were currency, CoL and (bulbed) philosophy. tech parity has been reached in some areas though not in other (no MC for example). currently i am halfway through education, on the way to liberalism and i am pretty confident i will reach there first, although i haven't met two of the AIs yet. the economy has been restored by great amounts although i still am last in GNP

meanwhile, the war continued in brutal style. i held off declaring peace until i reached alphabet so i could get techs. i made peace twice this round, both of which backfilled many techs (don't have the screenies but i think i got about 8 techs in total from peace treaties.) this was probably a mistake as it added to WFYABTA with the others i think (although the limit hasn't been reached yet). eventually i captured the last two cities, still using axes (now with catapults for backup). the empire looked like this at the end of the turnset:

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s240/kingmadmushroom/Civ4ScreenShot0020-2.jpg

i have captured everything below the big mountain line to the north. i feel this is a perfect position to either go for space or dominate my continent.

from a diplomatic point of view i have yet to adopt a religion. HC is closer but so normally i would try to side with him but at the moment i can't afford to lose Joao or Gilly as trade partners (they are Jewish, HC is Hindu).

any thoughts guys???

Gliese 581

May 17, 2008, 11:41 AM

@ Rusten & Dirk1302

Thanks for having a look at my game.
Yep I intend to destroy Surys last city and get the gold from it before HC captures it so I'm already moving troops there. I just realized I've been calculating epic tech costs so I was thinking 700ish beakers for aesthetics when it's actually 487. I can go 100% research for 3 turns and be about halfway done with aesthetics.
Pillaging the village might be a good idea, I was thinking about working it in Angkor Wat to help the economy back on track but I could get alot of money, maybe even enough to go 100% all the way on aesthetics if I pillage everything I can and capture the city. Aesth is projected at 6 turns on 100% research and Lit at 5 turns so it's possible the AIs haven't research Lit yet?
GL would probably take me 2 turns to build if I have 3 workers there to chop, especially if I get Maths.
I'll need some luck to get Maths though and without it I can't bulb Alphabet.
I think I still have a shot at the GL then again it's been quite the wonderspam so far. I think the wonderhoggers are a big happy buddhist family but that remains to be seen. However as you've observed it's far from certain that I'll get it so it would be a bit of a gamble. HC might not be the only industrous civ, I'm pretty certain one of the other civs has stone since they built the pyramids in 1560 bc followed by more stone wonders, they might be industrous as well. They're certainly wonderspamming in any case.
I think I'm going to go for it though, I might need it to bounce back from the war. Gilgas lead is freakishly big and I don't know how I'd get anything to trade unless I can get some bulbing done soon.
I'll put down the slow warfare to my inexperience at normal speed. I could've been faster if I'd prioritized the weaker cities with more units directly instead of encouraging a big buildup competition outside Harry.
The monument in Aachen was a mistake pure and simple, I didn't realize I had a lighthouse available (doh) and I needed to build something else than troops bc of upkeep costs.

Olodune

May 17, 2008, 01:07 PM

Charlemagne, Chapter 3

620-1060

This round was more rebuilding, capped off with Liberalism

I've focused my spy points on Huayna Capac, and have managed to steal Construction and Drama (which was sold for gold) from the Incan. Diplomatic hits are not too much of a worry since he needs to die in the next set.

Joao asked me to convert to Judaism (his and Gilgamesh's religion), I agree.

Trying to sow some discontent:

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj294/olodune/trade1.jpg

Not much luck on that front.

At least we're first to Liberalism (choose Nat.)

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj294/olodune/liberalism-1.jpg

Leaving us with this tech position:

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj294/olodune/tech_pos.jpg

And these lands:

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj294/olodune/lands_1080.jpg

I'll probably go ahead and trade gunpowder around the board at the beginning of the next set. The next GSci is 9 turns away and will be used for Printing Press. War with HC looms on the horizon, Rifles+Trebs or Grens+Cannons are likely combinations. I need the Incan's land to compete with the giants.

Aachen is 16t away from completing the Taj -- it would be a nice gift, and my first wonder.

Gliese 581

May 17, 2008, 02:00 PM

@Rusten & Dirk1302

Actually, I'm kind of rethinking my position here. I checked the bts reference guide and both HC and Gilga builds wonders "very often". There's also two wonderhoggers I haven't met for a total of at least four, all with a sizable tech lead on me no doubt, it might just be to much to ask in a game where Pyramids at 1560 set the pace for wonders throughout. It would just suck if I missed the GL, I should probably play safe and get Alphabet next and use my first GS for an academy in Aachen then use the next to bulb Philosophy.

Also regarding the third GG: Even if I settle him in my GT city and run vassalage & theo that is only 9 points, not enough for two promotions. I think I'll go ahead with my initial plan and put him in Prague which will then be able to produce level 4 units with only one of those civics. I might upgrade some CR3 maces if I go for a rifles -war or else just get some cr3 trebs.

It might also be a good idea to put all EPs into HC and maybe be able to steal a tech later on from him. Gilgamesh's EPs are probably through the roof as usual.

JBossch

May 17, 2008, 02:27 PM

@Dirk1302
I'd be worried at the pace your war is going, every turn in war'll cost you due to unhappiness, need to keep on producing units, culturally pressed cities. I looked at your 75 AD save and also at your second spoiler until 500 AD and some Khmer are still alive. You're running a potential risk of Khmer vassalizing to someone.

Yeah the war was real slow and definitely took its toll on my happiness. I was able to trade MC for IW (among other things, I printed a full list in one of my posts) and pillage Sury's Iron which kept him under my thumb a bit.
I was very worried about Sury vassalizing to HC but this problem ended up being solved when a world war broke out right before my second war against Sury went in. HC was busy and I ended up joining the war against him anyway.

Still, grabbing that double gold spot would have made my life so much easier. Lesson learned I guess. To be honest, I think any of the experts could have done so much more with my opening. Many have taken Liberalism way before me. I am really hoping the next turnset will see my SE come alive.

Regarding your post-rush situation, it sounds a lot like my Cyrus game after the immortal rush. I was building warriors and deleting them because I couldn't build anymore buildings and couldn't afford any units. Are you moving the capital to Yasod? That is my plan but I'm not building any cottages, just making it a beast hammer city. Also will you go into pacifism and caste system after getting some rathaus's up?

@Olodune
At what point will you trade around Lib? I sometimes think of it as a bit useless after getting it first but maybe this is dumb. Gilgy has just switched into FR in my game (due to SP I think) and I am sure it will boost him to new heights of tech ridiculousness. I am always worried about giving the AI anything military oriented.

Olodune

May 17, 2008, 03:37 PM

@JBossch

I would much rather trade military techs with the AI than economic techs -- unless an attack is imminent. In particular that are a few economic techs the AI seems to make very good use of. These are (in rough order)

1. Assembly Line (huge prod increase, very scary)
2. Democracy (dangerous for AIs with good land -- that is a big worry here)
3. Printing Press (free commerce without effort)
4. Liberalism (free speech is especially dangerous -- both for tech and cultural victories)

Also once you have Liberalism the AI seems to much much less likely to research it -- I'd rather keep Joao and Gilgamesh out of Free Speech as long as possible, so I'm not going to trade it until my monopoly is broken.

Note: Biology is a big economic player for the human player, but the AI is constrained more by cap space than food (imo).

Olodune

May 17, 2008, 04:44 PM

@all (spoiler for ~1100ad)

I was wondering why everyone liked each other so much ... check out the favorite civics listing :lol:

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj294/olodune/funny_.jpg

ck07

May 17, 2008, 05:42 PM

JBossch, in your post on page 1 you mentioned "mining" marble. Can you build a quarry without masonry?

Gliese 581

May 17, 2008, 05:52 PM

Sleepless

May 17, 2008, 06:26 PM

1834 - 1933 The End

My earlier though had been to go for the Internet and try for a peaceful space victory. I then decided I didn't have enough land and wanted some of HC's. :mischief:

Some of his cities.

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh168/SJG12345/ImmCharlie/Civ4ScreenShot0027.jpg

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh168/SJG12345/ImmCharlie/Civ4ScreenShot0029.jpg

My game winning move again was building the Internet. I don't like relying on it but its better than losing. ;) Another lucky one was HC building the MoM and as I hadn't had a GAge in this game yet I ran 2 to help finish off the techs I wasn't going to get from the Internet. Namely Superconductors/Genetics/Fusion and Fibre Optics. Virtually everything else came free. ;)

It was quite a close race with Cathie (cultural) and Gil although Gil spoiled his chances by attacking Joao. He already had Sal/Sury/HC as his vassals which only left me and Cathie free.

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh168/SJG12345/ImmCharlie/Civ4ScreenShot0040.jpg

So in 1933.

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh168/SJG12345/ImmCharlie/Civ4ScreenShot0041.jpg

Well for me a very tough game. Luckily I was able to tech trade with Sal and Cathie for most of the game which enabled me to pick up a lot of techs I was unable to trade with the others. Made a change not to draft rifles. I had AL before rifling. Although you can add that one to the list of techs the AI don't research early.

Thanks again for hosting this Silverbullet. :goodjob:

JBossch

May 17, 2008, 07:35 PM

JBossch, in your post on page 1 you mentioned "mining" marble. Can you build a quarry without masonry?

You can put a regular mine on it until you get masonry, perhaps that is what he meant. It's what I did in my game.

Yeah I just built a mine. Silverbullet suggested this early on and I liked the idea. 5 hammers, just no commerce or marble. An event destroyed the mine but I was about to finally build a quarry anyway. Learning to sometimes temporarily build an unlikely improvement over a bonus tile has often come in real handy on immortal.

Rusten

May 17, 2008, 08:17 PM

1170 AD -> 1515 AD
I declare on HC with my stack portrayed in the previous turnset at 1180 AD. At 1220 AD I take the first city. I run into what seems to be his biggest stack a little later and easily tear it apart with my tech lead and number of units. I’m pretty sure that I’ll be winning the war without many casualties at this point. The main problem remains the speed of which I’ll conquer Inca territory.

- I make deals with Joao and Gilgamesh for Replaceable Parts and Constitution. My research bumped quite a bit after Representation and after finishing Steel I went onwards to Rifling.

- 1330 AD Joao declares on Gilgamesh. I keep a caravel scouting the choke point between their main lands. If I see either one taking heavy losses I’ll bribe them to peace, but I definitely want them to fight it out evenly for as long as possible.

- Started on the Globe in Aachen (finished +/- point of rifling).

- 1350 AD Take HC’s capital.

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh206/Rust1/ch5-1.jpg

The rest of his cities should be easy pickings, but….

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh206/Rust1/ch5.jpg

As you can see from this tech screen (+/- 1360) he’s now able to research Rifling and that he did shortly after. He actually got there before me, but fortunately my attack force consisted of grenadiers so it didn’t matter all that much. It seems I’m still keeping up in techs despite warring, I’m closing in on victory.

- 1390 AD Cathy got her hands on Astronomy and I’m finally able to trade for some more resources. She supplies me with rice, dye and spices while I give her wine, sugar and banana.

- Some turns later I decide to break my Steel monopoly as it's just a matter of time before the others are getting it. The reason is that Gilgamesh has Sci. method and just got Astronomy -- meaning that he can research physics. I don't want him to get that GS and I have 3 GSs idling in my capital, so I make a trade for Astronomy with Cathy and Sci. method with Gilgamesh and triple-bulb Physics for the GS and start on Biology (bulb with the free GS). In your face gem-cheater!

- 1515 AD I take (raze due to cultural pressure) HC’s last city and wipe him out.

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh206/Rust1/ch6.jpg

I will probably attack Joao ASAP after fielding some more cannons and rifles to support my current grenadier-based army because Joao has a lot of Cuirassiers which will turn into Cavalry soon. He's still at war with Gilgamesh.

Gliese 581

May 17, 2008, 09:24 PM

Read spoilers up til 500 ADish where I'm currently at (part 3 coming when I've played some more). Great games so far, I like the Oracle Pyramids gambit, effective or not (way better position than I'm in at any rate) :goodjob:.

Some comments..
A mine is even better on the marble in this case since 5 hammers > 4 hammers 2 commerce in the early game, also builds 2 turns faster.

@silverbullet: I usually start by chopping grassland forests and save the hill-forests for last, that way I can keep on chopping without having to waste turns by stepping on hills twice before I mine them. Sometimes I'll make a mine halfway through though if it's an all forest start but your regular production is going to be nothing compared to the chopping anyhow and with slavery any good food tile can be worth more than working a mine.

obsolete

May 17, 2008, 10:22 PM

JBossch, I'm curious why you haven't upgraded to the GLANCE menu yet...

tycoonist

May 18, 2008, 04:47 AM

i am really screwed right now:
everyone was pleased/friendly with me so i beelined the UN. however everyone is too friendly with everyone else so there is little chance of me getting elected. i am heading for the internet, it is my last chance in this game...

tycoonist

May 18, 2008, 05:15 AM

yeah its over, as i thought it would be:

Joao launched his SS mid 1800s. the tech pace in this game was incredible. i think that was because everyone had good land, and there weren't any wars throughout the game. UN just wasn't happening unfourtunately.

i think i could have won if i had commited to the internet earlier rather than going diplo. Joao beat me to computers and built it first.

thanks Silverbullet for hosting this one. i will win next time :)

Unconquered Sun

May 18, 2008, 06:34 AM

A challenging immortal start? I'm in for some play.

I founded 3 cities, then razed/resettled a barbarian one, then invaded Suri with axes and catapults.

I took his capital and second city, and destroyed/resettled a third one, leaving Khmer separated in three.

I got GL in 25 bc and Parthenon some time later.

It was time for war again, reducing Suri to a fishing village. The "peace front" bulbed Taoism and got to Music first.

Now I have to use the free GA to revolt to caste/pacifism and bulb Liberalism line, but timing is vital because I want to complete a couple more wonders and some rathauses.

http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj153/unqsun/map-1.jpg

Techwise, I have Music on Joao, so only Gilga is ahead, that won't last long when I start the GS run in Aahen. The question is whether to trade for Machinery next turn and bulb Paper/Edu or bulb Edu/Lib while postponing the Machinery trade.

http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj153/unqsun/t475.jpg

Gliese 581

May 18, 2008, 08:24 AM

US: How far into the game is your spoiler?

Rusten

May 18, 2008, 08:45 AM

His spoiler is up to 475 AD, same as his save.

Happy to see you join in U Sun :)

Gliese 581

May 18, 2008, 09:28 AM

Part 3 (175 AD - 880 AD):

Where do I go from here? I think the situation seems a bit desperate to be honest.

The first decision at the start of the session was what path to take to build my economy. I had to choose between going for Aesthetics -> Lit to get a shot at TGL or just go for Alphabet and work it out from there.
I decided in the end to go for Alphabet. My reasons were:
It's already 175 AD which is a bit risky for going after the GL. Both of the AIs I had met at the time, HC and Gilgamesh, builds wonder very often and had a tech advantage on the GL path. Gilga already had Literature.
There were two other civs I had yet to meet that had spammed wonders throughout the game. I didn't want to go for TGL only to lose it and only get the NE out of two techs with no trades and basically a dead end tech-path for some time.
So I chose to go for Alphabet, Sury was about done with just Isvarapura left so my cities had already switched to infrastructure.

200 AD: Finish Masonry start on Alphabet.

225 AD: Pillaged 40 gold in total from the sugar village, a little dissapointing. Strangely enough HC didn't send his troops onward to capture Isvarapura, presumably becasue the city would be boxed in by my culture but he could have taken and razed it for the plunder.

275 AD: I use my level 3 and 4 axes to capture Isvarapura and Sury was killed.

http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn131/Gliese5812/CharlesC0000.jpg

I razed the city.

300 AD: My first GS is born in Aachen, I used him for an academy there.

350 AD: Hagia Sophia built in distant lands. I meet Joao who is even more advanced than Gilgamesh and also jewish. They are friendly with a passion to each other.

375 AD: Finish Alphabet start on Meditation. I decided to go for COL after Alphabet since only Gilgamesh had it at the time and it's a good recovery tech especially with the UB.

400 AD: HC builds MoM in Cuzco.

450 AD: Finish Meditation start on Priesthood. Joao builds the Colossus.

475 AD: Finish Priesthood start on COL.

500 AD: Joao completes The Parthenon, Gilgamesh completes Chichen Itza.

My cities were building any missing buildings of use such as barracks, lighthouses and some were just building research.

660 AD: Finish COL. Unfrotunately Joao had gotten hold of it by this time so I only had HC to trade with. I tried to get Monarchy for it but the cheap bastard refused so I had to put a turn of research into Monarchy.

680 AD: Did the trade:

http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn131/Gliese5812/CharlesC0001.jpg

I start researching IW and revolt to HR + CS. All three known leaders have HR as favorite civics, which actually is one of the reasons this game is so difficult imo. Hmm I have to see how JBossch does diplomatically, normally The Pyramids is my favorurite wonder but maybe HR is better this game. :crazyeye:

700 AD: Joao completes The Notre Dame.

720 AD: HC founds Taoism. Gilga builds The Kong Miao. Only DR left, looks like the love-fests will continue both here and abroad (where they only have buddhism).

740 AD: Gilgamesh completes The Great Library. Come on dude you had Literature in the beginning of the ADs now I'm pissed because I could have gotten it.

760 AD: Finish IW, start on Mathematics. The Holy Romans are an advanced people. :rolleyes: All of the others have now obtained Philosophy.

780 AD: Finish Palace in Harry.

800 AD: Joao builds UoS in his superwonder city Lisbon. I discovered he has indeed stone in the bfc and two corn! :mad:

820 AD: Herodotus lists the most powerful civs.
1. Joao
2. Gilgamesh
3. HC
4&5. The unknowns
6. Me

Great..

840 AD: Finish Mathematics, start on Civil Service. None of the others have it yet so maybe I can finally do some more trades with it. Joao completes the Sistine Chapel, will have to watch for cultural victory there.

860 AD: I somewhat belatedly get my 8th city to hook up fish for health. I'll build the Moai here to make the city useful at all.

http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn131/Gliese5812/CharlesC0002.jpg

880 AD: Gilgamesh founds Islam. Just what the world needed. My second GS is born in Aachen. I stopped here for some advice.

http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn131/Gliese5812/CharlesC0003.jpg

How do I proceed? I could bulb philosophy and switch to pacificsm to try to generate enough GSs to win the Liberalism race. The problem is I only have HCs religion Hinduism, which he's spread to most of my cities. HC is the obvious target to hit next, I need more land to win this game and the other two are too powerful. Besides, HC is right next door.
All of the three have become Pleased with me bc of HR but only Joao can be trusted. Gilgamesh is aggressive and powerful and I don't want to further invite an attack by switching into hindusim my power is dreadfully low. I need to keep Joao at pleased to make sure he doesn't attack me.
Is there anything else I could do though? Maybe I have to take the gamble that I won't be attacked at this point?

JBossch

May 18, 2008, 11:42 AM

JBossch, I'm curious why you haven't upgraded to the GLANCE menu yet...
Is that a BUG mod thing? How do I get it? I have BtS 3.13 I think, with Bhruic's patch.

I like the Oracle Pyramids gambit, effective or not
Yeah I really don't know if it was. More land to grab peacefully and it would have been great but with the rush....maybe others could have done more with it.

Gliese 581

May 18, 2008, 02:16 PM

Is that a BUG mod thing? How do I get it? I have BtS 3.13 I think, with Bhruic's patch.

It's in both Bhruic's patch and the BUG mod. Actually I think you have to get Bhruic's supplementary patch if you don't want to use BUG. It's in their respective threads, I tried a quick look but it's always a hassle to find these things on civfanatics for me, it's hidden in one of the many mod subforums I think.

Rusten

May 18, 2008, 02:54 PM

It's in both Bhruic's patch and the BUG mod. Actually I think you have to get Bhruic's supplementary patch if you don't want to use BUG. It's in their respective threads, I tried a quick look but it's always a hassle to find these things on civfanatics for me, it's hidden in one of the many mod subforums I think.
It's one of the few stickies in the BTS forum. ;)

People might not have noticed, but Bhruic updated his patch 2 times this week, everyone using it should go have a look and update.

Update:

* Extended spy ejection protection to Great Spies (and any other unit considered "always invisible")
* AI Civs under Theocracy will no longer accept gifted Missionaries
* Units withdrawing from combat will be removed from selection group (thanks Moctezuma)
* When bumping naval units from cities, preference will be given to water tiles
* Tweaks/bugfixes to improve starting city locations (thanks SevenSpirits)
* Cities no longer require a Monument to allow Spies to sabotage buildings

Bh

Update:

* Rivers added for starting locations will generate flood plains if they pass through desert tiles
* Spy unit help popup will display the percentage espionage cost decrease from fortification

Bh

silverbullet

May 18, 2008, 05:02 PM

I decided to abandon my game and restart again. Looks better this time, but the situation is still difficult.

Up to 620AD

In my first game I just couldn't properly rush Sury. He had already expanded too much and had multiple axemen in his cities, so I decided to restart.

After looking at some spoilers, I chose to copy Rusten's start of agriculture and building a settler at size 3. To make it fair I also went to archery, pretending I didn't know that copper was close.
In my game Sury went quickly for Iron working and didn't have alphabet.
I managed to settle the goldx2+sheep site as well the copper corn city.
The war with Sury was very very long and is not completely over yet.
I had to stop it twice due to extreme war weariness.

Situation right now at 620 AD is not great but there is still a way out.
The know civilizations are Khmer, Inca, Sumeria and Portugal.
Joao and Gilgamesh are pleased with me as we share Judaism's.
Joao declared war on Huayna and asked me to stop trading with him, and I agreed.
I have nothing to trade with Joao and Gilgamesh now, but I can bulb philosophy first on the next turn. I wonder if I should trade it immediately or wait until I have civil service, since they are both far ahead and there is a risk of losing the liberalism race.

I have both currency and CoL which are crucial for such a big empire, and I have some room for more cities. There is also Sury's last city to conquer when the peace expires.

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk162/silverbullet_sz/Civ4ScreenShot0012.jpg
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk162/silverbullet_sz/Civ4ScreenShot0013.jpg

Any advice is welcome.

Sleepless

May 18, 2008, 06:31 PM

@Silverbullet

At least you got to rush Sury he attacked me (or would of if I had let him ;)). I think you will have the same tech problem I had that I was so far behind Gil/Joao I had nothing to trade them and attacking HC is not going to endear him to you so not much trade happening there. :lol:

I would trade bulb Philo (went in the BCs in my game) straight away and trade what I could get for it. I didn't even try for Lib in my game as Gil had Edu a long time but still bulbed Education and traded it away for a lot of missing techs. If you can get to Lib first :goodjob: but I wouldn't bank on it.

Important techs to get ASAP are Monarchy/Calender for the Happies and shared fav civic bonus.

Good Luck on whatever route you take. If you can take some of HCs cities all the better even if it does crash the economy. Just run Specs build research/wealth in hammer cities and with the extra land its amazing how quick you can catch up (sort of). :lol:

patagonia

May 19, 2008, 09:07 AM

Immortal Charlie (Redux) - part three (to 1320AD)

At the end of the last round, I'd just completed the Great Library and was attempting to pull myself out of an enormous tech-hole whilst avoiding being squished by any of the other AI.

Things got off to a reasonably slow start. I swapped research from Currency to Meditation/CoL to open up a philosophy bulb in the hope of back-filling some techs. Unfortunately Joao got to philosophy first and Gilgamesh declared on me as soon as I'd made the bulb, so I was only able to get HR from Huayna for it. I revolted to HR immediately for the shared civic bonus while my axe/spear stack in Polynesian cowered behind the walls there (one nice thing about this map is the mountain range that acts as a natural chokepoint, leaving only one land route available for the AI). Shortly after the revolution, I got a nice random event I've not seen before:

http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/1424/civ4screenshot0000hz7.jpg

I took the military instructor - not sure if this was the strongest move or not, but I'd already built the HE in Prague so there was nice synergy there. I mopped up the remains of Gilgamesh's stack once he'd suicided most of his units against Polynesian, but he wouldn't agree to a peace treaty until a much larger and more advanced stack had arrived on my borders some turns later. I got into a bit of a flap and burned a GS I had sleeping on paper so that I'd have a tech to offer him in the deal, then remembered that I wouldn't be able to do that until the following turn. Fortunately I was able to get him off my back by raising the tax rate for 10 turns:

http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/2030/civ4screenshot0001jv5.jpg

Not the kind of deal you want to be making on a regular basis, but probably better than losing a city, and it's good to know that the AI will accept GPT when you've nothing else to offer.

I continued with largely civilian/infrastructure builds as I worked my way slowly towards Liberalism and moved the capital to Harry as it seems to have the best combination of commerce/production potential to benefit from bureaucracy. However, I could tell I was still a long, long way behind when I was able to make this deal with Joao:

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/5268/civ4screenshot0002oq2.jpg

The AI lacks a certain degree of focus though, and I was able to get a couple more techs off Gilgamesh after double-bulbing Education (Huayna beat me to it and Joao annoyingly got it between my bulbing and being able to trade), before taking a major gamble on Liberalism itself by building research almost everywhere. Slightly surprisingly (and after a lot of tile MM to shave it down as much as possible), in 1290AD:

http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/5780/civ4screenshot0003fs1.jpg

I took printing press as the free tech for the instant commerce boost. All the others had PP and nationalism by that point, and Huayna had already built the Taj, so PP seemed like the best option.

I've played on to 1320AD and have just met Saladin, who is more backward than me and looks to be either cramped for land or have taken a beating since he's only got 6 cities.

I'm still a long way behind in tech:

http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/6084/civ4screenshot0004bn8.jpg

And my demographics suck:

http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/6583/civ4screenshot0005zz2.jpg

So I'm not really sure where to go from here. The DP with Joao has me nice and safe diplomatically, but I'm not convinced I can get to computers/internet before the others do and although my lands have the production to win a space race, I think they lack the commerce compared to Joao/Gilgamesh.

Declaring on Huayna could well be a problem since he's part of the happy Hindu club (with Joao and me) and friendly with both Joao and Gilgamesh (Confucian), so it may be worth looking to Saladin for more land (I haven't built the FP yet either). That might also end up being a faster war due to being able to move troops amphibiously rather than trudging 1-tile at a time through Incan culture, plus it won't annoy any of my friends. I should also be looking to exploit Hinduism for more than just the diplomatic benefits with Joao/Huayna - I'm only running specialists in Aachen (NE city) so pacifism seems more trouble than it's worth, but getting Monotheism for OR is something I should have done a long time ago looking at the game now, especially since Huayna's been kind enough to spread it to all of my cities.

For now, I've got a couple of other issues I'd appreciate advice on.
I've just got a GS in Aachen. I haven't built an academy for my future Oxford city (Harry) yet - should I use him for this, or is it better to bulb when you're this far behind? I'm up Liberalism on everyone - should I use it to back-fill, or keep the monopoly to deny the others free speech?Thanks for your help :)

Sleepless

May 19, 2008, 09:39 AM

@Patagonia

I was in a big tech hole as well and relied on trading with the other civs we didn't meet initially to catch up a little bit so I would gift Sal a tech, hopefully he will trade with you then.

Personally I would do as many trades as possible for Lib, (after seeing if Sal will trade with you) how long before the AI get it themselves? Another option is to go into Free Religion, the shared civics should keep you safe and I expect Gil will have a new worse enemy then. I know in my game I didn't have to build any military after the first attack on Sury until Arty/Infantry so I was a bit lucky there. (edit 2 or 3 Lbs and 1 musket no LKs though). :)

I would aim to get Oxford built asap. If you bulb the GS now what will he give you that will enable you to trade? So I think an academy is the best option. I don't mm or number crunch so perhaps someone else will do the figures. ;)

Looking at the tech screen I assume Gil has rifles but generally the AI go for them quite late so you might get some trade value from RP and Rifles. I know HC has a very low WFYBTA limit (annoying when they have so many techs on you and won't trade because your too advanced :lol:).

The land we have is quite decent so you have a good chance at a space win, diplo might be harder and watchout for an HC cultural attempt.

Good Luck. :goodjob:

Edit. My tech rate became a lot higher around 1500/1600 when I started overtaking some Civs. Only got in front of Gil right at the very end though.

I did run OR through most of the game but Sury was still alive so I had a shared civic bonus with him as well

Dirk1302

May 19, 2008, 09:49 AM

@Patagonia

- Bulbing is rather useless when everyone already has that tech, i'd save for oxford
- Normally I'd trade lib around ,possible plan: get gunpowder research engineering yourself then research a few turns into chemistry, get it from Gilga for lib and try to trade that tech around only Gilga has it.

But, your natural trade partner atm is Saladin, i'd be willing to take some risks to get him to trade with you, so go FR, will probably bring him to cautious while Huyna and Joao will only drop to pleased. Very important is finding the last civ out there, might also be a good trading partner. In this scenario it might be better not to trade lib and wait till you can get better deals for it.

Get Joao and Gilga to fight each other asap. In my game these 2 share religion which is a huge problem, not only do they tech like mad, they trade like mad too.

Sleepless

May 19, 2008, 09:49 AM

@Rusten/All

It seems that I'm the only one Sury declared on well he would have done (saved the game to see if he would and he did ;))but as I didn't want him to move into the forests around Aachen I had to declare first. So instead of a couple of Archers I had to deal with a lot of Axes/Swords which stalled my initial attack and prompted me to leave the hill city to last.

As for the question anyone have an idea why Sury declared on me. I suppose it could be my power rating when he decided to attack although it had jumped up when he got around to it. :lol:

I noticed Rusten made his attack on Sury quite late any reason he didn't attack you?

Dirk1302

May 19, 2008, 10:10 AM

@Sleepless

The AI does a peace/war random check every turn against every player/ai regardless of power rating/diplo situation etc. If this check is war the ai will take into account diplo/power etc. Most Ais will reverse the war decision 80-100% dependent on AI at pleased. They will reverse if your power rating is high enough etc. But the declaration itself is random so well possible that you get declared on and the others won't. I faced quite alot of axes/swords too btw but i was quick to pillage the iron. The archers with the extra combat from the random event were at least as troublesome though.

Dirk1302

May 19, 2008, 10:26 AM

@silverbullet

I can't look at the save right now. I'd bulb philo and trade it for CS (it's what i did actually), this tech'll probably cost you some time to research otherwise. Once the Ais are close to lib they can research techs like philo in 2-3 turns, risk is you set them on the lib path with this trade while they otherwise would go guilds/banking and engineering gunpowder chemistry all the way because they don't like to research philo, this is all hypothetical though. in the meantime we need CS so i suggest trading.

Sleepless

May 19, 2008, 11:31 AM

@Gliese581

I've just looked at your save so you've probably played on since then. ;) I think the Lib race is lost as Joao can already tech towards Lib. I would have gone for Lit earlier not just for the GLib but for the NE/HE as well. I doubt CS will have much trade value by the time you get it as I assume most of the AI will be going for it now.

I would use the GS on an academy or hold for bulbing Education and trying to get Oxford up early ish.

Looking forward to your next report. :goodjob:

patagonia

May 19, 2008, 12:59 PM

@ Sleepless/Dirk

Thanks for the advice. I was thinking of snubbing Saladin in case I picked up "worst enemy" diplo penalties with some of the others, but since he hasn't met them yet I should be OK for now, so it probably is well worth buttering him up. I'm going to try just gifting a tech first though, since staying Hindu exempts me from WFYABTA with Huayna.

@ silverbullet

Don't know if you've played on or not, but I'd be inclined to sell some spare health to Joao for his 7:gold:/turn, sell him meditation for his treasury and then bulb philosophy to trade around.

If you add a couple of shock axes and a spear to your stack, it may be worth trying to nab a city from Huayna once Sury's dead - give those CR3 units something to keep them occupied and Joao's keeping his forces busy on the other border.

Gliese 581

May 19, 2008, 01:02 PM

@ Sleepless

Thanks, no actually I haven't played any more rounds, I've been starting new immortal /normal speed games and practiced on doing faster rushes. That was my problem so far in the Charlie game, I think I expanded to the copper city and set up the attack rapidly enough but then I wasn't focused enough to end it quickly.

What do you think about revolting to hindu to run pacifism? Is it worth the risk with both Joao and Gilgamesh being jewish? I think I might have a shot at Liberalism if I can bulb 3 more times (Edu+ Lib). But maybe I'm thinking epic speed here.
I've already built an academy in Aachen so I don't think I need more of them right now.

Sleepless

May 19, 2008, 02:08 PM

@Gliese 581

As long as you stay in Monarchy you should be ok to adopt Hindu and run Pacifism. Otherwise Gil might take exception. ;) Even if you don't get to Lib first, I didn't, Education is good for Oxford/Trade purposes. Remember you need to get Calender/Compass as well. Calender especially gives you some nice resources to trade so not a bad one to have anyway.

No harm in trying anyway. :)

Gliese 581

May 19, 2008, 05:11 PM

@ Sleepless

Alright, I'll go for it then. Though the bigger danger is no longer having Joao pleased with me as he's 100% safe at pleased, Gilgamesh is an aggressive backstabber anyhow so I just have to hope he doesn't attack me.

patagonia

May 20, 2008, 04:45 AM

Immortal Charlie (Redux) - part 4 (to 1906AD)

I started off attempting to redress the tech situation by gifting Saladin a tech to bump him up to cautious so that he was willing to trade and then made some deals:

http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/9369/civ4screenshot0006ew8.jpg

I'd later get guilds, gunpowder and optics off him too.

I got a couple of Nav-1 caravels built in Prague and sent them off exploring and a spot of map trading netted me the circumnavigation bonus - more useful for AI denial than anything else since I didn't build another military unit all game.

The last AI turned out to be Cathy, who had been warring with Saladin a lot. I started off with -4 to relations with her for trading with him, but she turned out to be a more useful tech-trading partner than the Arabian.

I was still a long way behind Joao and Gilgamesh, with Huayna also up a bunch of techs on me. Some serious beelining towards computers and the internet had me first to a couple of techs, but with the others already researching them and therefore unable to trade for anything I was missing.

Although Joao was first to both radio and plastics, he avoided computers for some time allowing me to beat him to it. There followed some nervy turns while I was building the internet in Yasodharapura (IW city), knowing that if I missed that wonder, the game was lost.

http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/3818/civ4screenshot0007uo1.jpg

How much of an impact did that have?

Tech before:
http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/3020/civ4screenshot0009kr3.jpg
Tech after:
http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/5048/civ4screenshot0008pe1.jpg

From there I beelined fusion, researching techs the other AI didn't have to maximize any benefit to be gained from the Internet. I burned a GS on my first golden age to swap civics to US/SP and started workshopping like crazy, getting the GE from fusion in time for another golden age soon afterwards. The space race was very tight, when I suddenly noticed a problem:

http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/8339/civ4screenshot0000cg9.jpg

Curse you Huayna!

I'd seen him going cultural earlier on and bribed him into war against Saladin to get him to turn research on again. Once he'd started teching and building SS parts, I thought I'd successfully got him to switch, but that turned out not to be the case. I got distracted with the race for the internet and my own construction progress vs Joao and foolishly missed the fact that the Incans were sneaking a win.

I've looked back on a couple of older saves and although nobody would war with him, I could have focused my EP in that direction, set one city to build spies and gone on a water-poisoning spree in his 2nd and 3rd cultural cities to starve them out of contention if I'd got my act together in time.

Out of curiosity, I went into WB and dropped the culture in a couple of his cities to see what would have happened in the space race and I beat Joao to launching by a couple of turns, which would have led to a win in 1926. Dang.

patagonia

May 20, 2008, 04:53 AM

This was a challenging and enjoyable game - thanks for hosting it silverbullet.

Dirk1302

May 20, 2008, 08:01 AM

@Patagonia

Well played anyway this is a challenging game and your position in your last update wasn't that good i felt so spacerace 1926 is a good result disregarding Huyna's culture trick more so because you didn't take out Huyna so you didn't have much land.

I wonder, would poisoning the water have helped, if you poison twice does the city have -16 health? or do you have to wait till the previous poisoning is over.

Also, most of the culture comes from the slider and wonders i think so poisoning might not help but since i'm bad with spies i really wouldn't know,silverbullet knows these things. If i have to deal with a culture thread i tend to raze a coastal city, then back in the boats and sue for peace.

silverbullet

May 20, 2008, 02:38 PM

@Patagonia:

Water poisoning wouldn't have stopped culture much. The main trick of using espionage vs culture is to force him to switch out of free speech if you can.
It's really good if you have the cristo redentor. You can switch for one turn to barbarism and then force the opponent to ineffective civics.
You can also switch their religion and civic to negate favourite civics bonuses.
You could also use spies to destroy his cathedrals, but that is quite expensive.
The best solution is of course to raze his cities :)

Anyway, good game and nice reports.
My computer keeps crashing lately and I cannot play this game :mad:

@USun:

That's a very nice start. I think you are the one of the only ones who didn't go for an axe rush and as a result it seems like you could do both peace and war activities in parallel.
Do you happen to have more intermediate saves of your early game?

Dirk1302

May 20, 2008, 03:49 PM

580-1140 decision point

Left the empire with 7 cities and a research rate of 72 beakers/turn without loss. Not too good, need Ne and improved land now.Around 900 AD i begin researching education and i have a difficult choice, i can burn a GS on a GA to revolt without anarchy and a 8 turn boost in gpp towards lib. Also my own research which includes compass will be much faster. I decide to do this. The race is really close,due to GA i get back the sacrificed GS in time with the boosted gpp output.

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s256/dirk1302/Librace.jpg

I get lib 1020 taking nationalism 1 turn before Gilga i think, he will give me nothing for it. I go for Taj asap from here. I set research to gunpowder now hoping to trade for construction/feudalism/engineering later. I know trading for construction is weird but i'm really in a hurry with gunpowder now hoping to trade with Gilga before he takes off.

Not much happening until 1140 AD. Trade for optics and gold, subsequently Nationalism for feudalism and engineering don't know with whom exactly anymore, most trades were made with Huyna. Gunpowder is in now going to trade it for guilds and workshop boost.Again i have a decision to make.

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s256/dirk1302/Huynalands.jpg

Huyna and Joao agree to peace and lookin at the green spot in the middle of the yellow it's clear from the screenshot that Huyana has given up one of his best cities for this deal. There was i thinking that Huyna and Joao warring was a good thing, was before i saw the map actually.

This is the tech screenshot.

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s256/dirk1302/Tech-joao-gil-1140.jpg

Gil and Joao will take off soon.

As i see it i have 3 options now.

-1) Attack Huyna, in this case it's too late for Globe now and Cannons is overkill for sure. Better build a treb/landsknecht/musket stack in this case and go for him. I can do that 10-15 turns from now and i expect to finish between 1500-1600 AD in that case. Looking at the Huyna lands it doesn't look too attractive now. Only Cusco and Machu picchu will really contribute, the rest'll be tundra or culturally pressed land. this would have been better if Huyna didn't have to give up that city . Even if i can war really fast Gilga and Joao will be hitting physics, electricity by that time i think and techwise i'll be left in the dust. Also i'll probably won't have much chance for an attack on someone else because i won't even have chemistry let alome steel by that time.

-2) Find the others (now i have optics this is a priority anyway). They will be backward like no tomorrow and are sure to have juicy lands, maybe attack them.

-3) Attack Joao building a globe fuelled stack, this has to be a serious one with lots of cannons/muskets/landsknechts.
I have seen already that Joao has lots of mounted units so Landsknechts will play their piece.This is ofcourse risky but if i succeed even if it takes some time i'll probably win the game also because it'll slow down Gil considerably. One ai who's far ahead always seems to slow down somewhat in the late industrial/early modern age. If they keep trading i fear i never see them again.

If i choose 1 i have to begin with some serious unit building now also in Yasodharapura where i'd planned to build globe, probaby shutting off research. If i go 2 or 3 i have to research on with chem/steel,building globe in Yasodharapura. 2 or 3 basically need the same approach, i'm fairly sure i can trade steel for astro if i choose 2. I'll need 30 turns from here at least to get things in order so i'd have to see the shape Joao is in around that time. I can deal with cuirassiers and rifles and probably cavs. If he has steel it'll be difficult and if he's close to assembly line impossible.

I'm not sure if i can win this, the most challenging game till now for sure. What makes it so difficult is the shared religion between Gil and Joao,Joao is +13 towards Gil, Gil +15 towards Joao. No way i can set them on each other.

Dirk1302

May 20, 2008, 04:22 PM

@silverbullet

As i said in my spoiler directed Patagonia, silverbullet knows these things :goodjob:. In order to bribe ais to civic switches they must be prepared to do that. I often gift economics to slightly backwards civs but i seldom succeed in bribing them to FM it being against everything they stand for. Is this different late game or do you use spies? If so i might need spies for the FM switch in the future, backwards civs running FM is quite a boost for my economy and often it won't help my contenders much since they're in merc too. Is it costly do to so midgame?

@Usun

Agree with silver here, i'd be interested in some intermediate saves too especially as to how many cats you were able to build and the time you had them. As i stated in the very first immortal student game i've always thought that cata rushes take too long to recover in time having tested it vs axe rushes many times. Still you did it, i see in the log that you could researched it fairly soon (625 bc according to log) due to the 2 gold spots. Really good playing of the map. I see that you also didn't start fishing, when i saw the starting pos i thought fishing was the obvious way to go but i and sleepless seem to be the only ones who did so. Situation is such that you're still in for an interesting game i think.

patagonia

May 20, 2008, 04:32 PM

silverbullet

May 20, 2008, 06:27 PM

@Dirk:

Your game looks very similar to mine on the same year and I have similar decision to make, except I think I will go for Huayna as he has more land. Once my computer stops crashing every 30 minutes I will post a repot

About Espionage
I don't know the exact cost of "influence civics" or whether it changes depending on the game stages. I only tried it late game when I had cristo and a lot of espionage.
If you open the espionage screen you will see the mission cost for "influence civics" towards any civ you know.
This cost is further modified by some factors:
1) Distance - this is a big one. If the target city is far from your capital it costs a lot more
2) Trade route - 80% cost.
3) Holy city - if you control the holy city of YOUR state religion and the target city has that religion 75% cost.
4) Religion - If you don't control the holy city AND have a state religion that exists in the target city AND it is not the state religion of the target civ, 85% costs
5) stationary spy - up to 50% discount
6) security bureau - 150% cost.

Dirk1302

May 20, 2008, 07:13 PM

@ Dirk

Gil/Joao love each other at the moment, but once constitution/US are available, at least one of them is likely to swap out of HR. You're competitive enough in tech to be able to bribe them to do that later on if they're being slow about it. If you can push Joao into FR too, then they'll lose a lot of the love they've built up and a war of attrition may be possible.

The main risk with doing nothing is that now Joao's got a taste for Huayna, he'll come back and finish the job if you don't beat him to it. It might be worth a quick war soon to snatch that land before he gets even bigger and more powerful by claiming it himself. Option 1 therefore has a good element of AI denial about it, but means if you don't turtle and go for space from there, you'll likely have to wait for infantry/tanks before you can press on into Portugal.

Well i'll certainly do something, switching out of HR for Joao or Gil is not nearly good enough theyre +13,+15 with each other now, one of them has to switch FR too and thirdly i have to have tools to bribe them which i don't have now and certainly won't have if i go for Huyna.
Also these civs are not bribable civs iirc, i think Gil and maybe also Joao won't even have a go at friendly just as someone like Cyrus who can be friendly easy but is never bribable,i'm not totally sure about this though.
The problem is i'm not competitive in tech my research is approx 200 beakers/turn now which is very low 1140 AD. I'll certainly fall behind big time whatever i'll do from here and recovery'll be late with extra land wherever i get it from. So i just have to choose the best military option from here and i doubt it's attacking Huyna with the mediocre land he has. I think Joao is my best chance unless i'm way late, in this case i must have a chance to get some good lands from the ais on the other side of the ocean that i haven't met yet.I'm talking about 15 good cities under SP easily conquerable because they'll be backward, after that ii'll have most of the land and i can at least have a military go if can't beat them research wise. Huyna land is just very poor, 2 good cities and some garbage as it is now and it'll cost me some 20-30 turns to conquer him with trebs. I'm helped somewhat i feel here by playing rolos isolated starts in the past where you seldom see military action before 1500 AD. I know how fast you can conquer backward islands from these starts even post 1500 ad. As for Huyna, i think he's out of the game already. If Joao attacks him again he'll soon vassalize and Joao'll accept so Joao won't have the full benefit of the Huyna cities. If i see any chance though when steel's in i'll go for Joao. I'll have one contender left in that case which gives me far more options. 2 contenders is really far more difficult because if for instance you take out one capital in a desperation attack,the other civ just laughs and takes his shot at space. In fact i have already positively made my mind up that i go for option 2 or 3 teching to steel building globe and see how the world looks by the time i get there.

patagonia

May 21, 2008, 12:35 AM

@ Dirk/silverbullet

Thanks for the info on espionage v culture. That's good to know for the future.

Thanks for explaining your reasons for going for option 2/3 as well. I learn a lot from these threads.

Unconquered Sun

May 21, 2008, 09:13 AM

@Rusten - nice to see you too :)

@Dirk and Silver

I'm going to post some saves later today. In short, the key is in fast rebound from army maintenance.

Rush economies are good with hammers, the deal is to get one of the converter techs: alphabet and currency. To get there you need writing for SE or pottery for CE. Rushers who fail to research writing or pottery are in big trouble, unless the terrain has many commerce tiles (golds, gems, coast+fin).

This map in particular had some coast, some gold (I only got 1) which allowed me to postpone alphabet and get construction first, but library specialists in Aahen remained the central contributor to my research, including the early GS I settled (as opposed to academy, which is not a good choice when pressed for maintenance). Then I researched Aesthetics and traded it for partially-researched Alphabet, got the GL in 25bc and NE only three turns later, sacrificing some forest health for more great scientists.

Bottomline is: everytime you rush on high levels, you hit the 100% maintenance costs. Everytime. At that point you must be able to convert the pop working mines into pop working...well, mines for wealth in the best case, and coast in the worst. Having no source of commerce will only bait you into producing more units or not-that-vital buildings and stagnate you for ages.

silverbullet

May 21, 2008, 09:28 AM

@USun:

Thanks for the explanation.
I think most of the saves here have writing before the rush, but most of us who played this game attacked around 900BC with a huge stack of axes and no library. By the time the war was over we were so far behind and even with Alphabet and recovery was difficult. In my game I didn't even start researching Aesthetics before the 100 AD, and lost the great library to Joao.

The main difference in your game is that it is not a "rush". You seem to have patiently waited with 3 cities, teched to construction and built the GL before warring. This is something I haven't seen so far on Immortal games. Most games demonstrate an initial REX/Rush and then a renaissance war after liberalism.

I am looking forward to your early saves to see how you can war and keep a good economy even when squeezed to 3 cities with a not-so-good leader.

Unconquered Sun

May 21, 2008, 11:12 AM

I opened with Agriculture -> Fishing. Irrigated corn beats crab for nonfinancial leaders.

Next was BW, then I considered beelining Writing from AH (hut pop) but went for granaries first.

http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj153/unqsun/2200bc.jpg

Granaries first or not, I got my first GS in 925 bc, from my only library in the capital. He was integral part of my strategy. One GS + two S + library = 15 bpt, or ~600 (* research bonus) beakers between 1000 BC and 1 AD. This is a significant edge that also results in having something to trade to the AI (aesthetics for alpha in my case), at which point I'm ahead ~1k beakers compared to playstyles that disregard early gpps.

http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj153/unqsun/gs925bc.jpg

Then I had the choice between Literature and Construction, and took the risk in postponing GL for more formidable army. I'm not convinced it was the optimal decision btw, rather the "safety" one because it guaranteed overrunning Sury regardless of bad rolls (of which I got quite a few).

Otherwise, Construction saves a bit on unit upkeep, war weariness, losing experienced units, and unit moves, but the alternative costs: late GL, or, say, Currency, are considerable.

Although I had catapults for most of the war, the first strike was axes only: targeting the AI capital, which is always a major city because of the way AI is coded.

http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj153/unqsun/attack575bc.jpg

Unconquered Sun

May 21, 2008, 11:19 AM

Finally, the Literature choprush. I had my forests partially chopped and roaded much earlier and got both GL and NE in 6 turns or so.

http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj153/unqsun/1ad.jpg

Dirk1302

May 21, 2008, 11:40 AM

1140AD-1500 AD, declaration

Prepare for war, i research Chem and Steel, due to low beakers/turn this takes quite some time. Doesn't matter, we'll build trebs in the meantime. I have to stay in pacificm for now otherwise it'll take too long to create a GM for troop updates.Around 1410 AD Steel's in and Globe ready also a GM has been born and set off to Gil's land to negotiate money for upgrades.I switch to nationhood and theocracy immediately drafting each turn, moving all troops north.

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s256/dirk1302/Techs-Gil-Joao.jpg

As you can see i'm being outresearched by Gil, we were about even 1140 AD,now i'm already 9 important techs behind:

economics
astro
replaceables
rifling
steampower
steel
scientific method
military science
corporation.

Gil is teching lightning fast atm and he also trades alot with Joao who's no slouch either. It's a bit better compared to Joao but he's got demo, i fear he'll trade it to Gil soon, i sure hope it's not for steel.

In the meantime i've met the others, backward but not as backward as i'd expected, I'm selling some techs for gold to them maybe they can help me a bit in the future. Especially Cathy has nice lands.

I had already rejected going for Huyna with a light landsknecht/trebs/musket army in favour of a more full scale war. I feel good about that decision now,Huyna's lands are not good enough to catch up. Seeing how fast Gil and Joao are i think i'll have to go for Joao. If i take Russia/Arabia out first i'll never see the other two again techwise. I sure hope Joao trades demo towards rifling and not steel, i feel Landsknechts can deal with cavs on a lose one but kill the damaged cav subsequently basis.I have to watch out for flanking cuirassiers/cavs though. Rifles on defence are no problem for attacking cannons and the AI's not prone to attack with them. At least Joao is some distance away from Assembly line atm so i won't face infantry. If he gets steel before i make some serious progress and upgrades to cannons i'll be in trouble.

Declare 1490, I'm at the gates of Cori 1500 AD already some cannons are damaged somewhat due to cuirassier flanking attacks lost 2 landsknechts too i think. I hope to promote some of these to anti-mounted soon.

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s256/dirk1302/Joao-declaration.jpg

I'll count them for you, 26 cannons, 11 muskets,19 landsknechts 6 axes, a medic 3 scout and a worker. Big stack but i'll need them all and alot more.
Reinforcments are on he way

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s256/dirk1302/Reinforcement.jpg

As if the game isn't difficult enough already Joao has the Statue of Zeuss in Lisbon. This means a civic switch to slavery and FM (i can get economics from Huyna now) and whipping my cities below 10 pop soon.

Dirk1302

May 21, 2008, 12:03 PM

@U Sun

Enlightening post, do you always do that setting 2 scientists to work so early, then settling the GS? Since you chopped GL and NE you presumably built/whipped most of your army. Extra difficult with 2 scientists at work, that's probaby the reason you declared a bit later than most. Early rushes aways make me nervous so i tend to get them over asap looking at the resulting mess afterwards. You have to have writing indeed though otherwise you'l never get out of the pit. Alpha is also very important really saved me this game.

One question left, i know taking AI capital is important, i always assumed it was because of the 8 gold for palace and the good tiles it can't work anymore.Are there additional reasons in the way the AI is coded, and if so which are they?

patagonia

May 21, 2008, 12:28 PM

@ Dirk/U Sun

Nice Monty-esque stack you've got there. Interesting that you've gone for Cory first - was it not possible to go further west through Huayna's lands and strike more directly at Joao's core cities?

I always thought it was most important to hit an AI capital first/early in a rush as it's going to be the most developed in terms of land and infrastructure, so losing it will hit them hardest. The palace is instantly relocated if the capital is lost, so the +8:commerce: from it doesn't actually disappear (a fact that saved me early on when the barb HA stack appeared from nowhere in my game).

I'd be interested to know if there are more subtle reasons why you should take it out early too.

Unconquered Sun

May 21, 2008, 12:42 PM

@Dirk

@U Sun

Enlightening post, do you always do that setting 2 scientists to work so early, then settling the GS? Since you chopped GL and NE you presumably built/whipped most of your army. Extra difficult with 2 scientists at work, that's probaby the reason you declared a bit later than most. Early rushes aways make me nervous so i tend to get them over asap looking at the resulting mess afterwards. You have to have writing indeed though otherwise you'l never get out of the pit. Alpha is also very important really saved me this game.

One question left, i know taking AI capital is important, i always assumed it was because of the 8 gold for palace and the good tiles it can't work anymore.Are there additional reasons in the way the AI is coded, and if so which are they?

There's nothing in CIV I always do. That's where I differ from "great prophets" like acid and Dave, who preach the one true way to play regardless of map, civ, etc.

I'm indeed likely to settle an early GS in games where a) maintenance is high b) cottages aren't a good option. I did in Justinian's University, where costs were for expansion, I do here where costs are for units. When you aren't financial, cottages can be a trap. People research Pottery and then half-way thru Writing their balance plummets. So they start cottaging, but economy is still in the hole.

The first GS is worth just 17 turns of investment of two pop and once you have it, it is equal to working 2 food/6 commerce/1 hammer tile that also gives you 1 to city happy cap. While in 17 turns working two cottages will give you less than working coast, let alone raw scientists output. Obviously, this math excludes food yield, but a capital like Aahen has no problems with food or health in early game, only happy cap (meaning the GS is even better).

Most of my army was hammered in my NW mining city. The location is great for production and I settled it with priority over settling for two gold mines. So I got only one gold, but made the most of the nearby terrain, while saving a bit on settler and worker movement.

On your other question: the AI is coded neutrally. It'll never act in the extreme, i.e. move all its workers to improve on this new awesome city spot. Immortals start with worker and have a long time to improve and grow their capitals.

silverbullet

May 21, 2008, 01:19 PM

Unconquered Sun:

Thanks for posting the extra details on the start.
I am curious why you chose to strike first with axes rather than wait for a few catapults. Sury's cultural defence in the capital is pretty high.
Also, it seem that you have used 8 axes only, when Sury have had iron for quite some time. Was that enough take the capital AND hold it?
Did you use the catapult to lower defences at all, or only as suicide collateral damage troops?

Dirk1302

May 21, 2008, 01:38 PM

@Patagonia
Indeed i could have gone through Huamanga, Lagos etc straight to Lisbon, my stack'll be extremely vulnerable though and reinforcements will be killed outright so i'll have to fully heal up every time to avoid losing units in my stack.Don't underestimate Joao, you can't see his powergaph anymore despite all the spy points that are directed to him. I've seen earlier my power is 0.6, might be 0.7 now compared to his so i have to proceed carefully. The idea is first attacking from the Huyna lands, Huyna (who vassalized peacefully to Gil btw) and Joao hate each other so Joao is not allowed there. Phase 1 is clearing an area taking border cities (Cori, Huamanga, Leiria) first letting Huyna's culture flow in fighting a bit of a defensive war. Then Lagos and Gaul'll be attacked completing phase 1. I think that area will be free of Portugese culture then giving me time to regroup and bring reinforcements in more quickly. Phase 2 consists of attacking Lisbon and Oporto, simultaneously if possible. If this succeeds i'll win the war. I feel in later wars clearing culture free areas is generally a good approach but certainly now with an opponent that is so strong.My stack may look big but without reinforcements it won't be nearly enough.

Great situation geographically i can get to Joao easily, he'll have to build galleons and ship in to get to me. Thx Huyna.

@U sun

Indeed i've noticed that you use many different approaches. This one is at least one to remember for future early rushes :goodjob:.

Unconquered Sun

May 21, 2008, 05:02 PM

silverbullet

May 21, 2008, 05:18 PM

Well, Sury had two axes and a sword in his capital. I lost three axes in taking it.

Now that I looked back at my save, I see he had a lousy defensive force in the capital in my game too, its the 2nd and 3rd cities that killed my army, once he started whipping walls and archers. It's not fun to try to take 5 archers behind walls with axemen only.
That's what catapults do best :).

Gliese 581

May 21, 2008, 10:41 PM

Oh I wish I had time to play my next round so I could read some more, I hope to get some more time for it in the weekend if not earlier. :sad:

JBossch

May 22, 2008, 06:08 PM

to 1585 and the abandonment of all hope:

I didn't have much time to play for awhile but looking at my situation again I think I am going to give up. First, my war against HC ended after taking only one city because the pansy vassaled to Joao. Then I saw this:
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/JBossch/Civ4ScreenShot0054.jpg

:eek: Joao has Infantry! My tech situation is horrible and I just don't feel like slogging it out any longer. A space win may still be possible but I really should have been transitioning to that strategy a long time ago. Military dominance hasn't been a realistic possibility for hundreds of years but I have still been blindly pursuing it. HC's land is crap anyway and Joao and Gilgy are practically married to each other. The AI's start position was just too much for me.
I still stand by my oracle-MC-mids gambit though. I think a better player could have done more with it.

Thanks to silverbullet for hosting and to everyone else for their advice. Despite losing I think I learned a lot this game.

Dirk1302

May 23, 2008, 05:31 AM

@Jbossch

Looks bad indeed, in my game Gil is close to infantry too but it looks like i stopped Joao just in time. Huyna vassalized peacefully to Gil so apparently that was a risk too. It's the religious situation that makes our games so difficult. You may have some chance still by crossing the ocean, a better option than Huyna anyway i think. Good land over there, i assume Cathy and Sal haven't caught up yet.

Dirk1302

May 23, 2008, 09:52 AM

1500-1610 AD

I failed to tell you that Sal dowed me, supremely uninteresting because he hasn't got astro yet, he'll probably soon have his hands full with Cathy again who hates him and already attacked him several times. I capture Cori next turn of course, then Joao comes up with this....

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s256/dirk1302/Joao-stack-1.jpg

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s256/dirk1302/Joao-stack-2.jpg

Count them for you again, 40 units, some 15 cuirassiers.

Wow am i happy he didn't attack cori straight away that'd cost me some units mostly landsknechts. As it is i attack this stack with my cannons only losing 4 in the process. Then take all of it except one cat

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s256/dirk1302/End-of-stack.jpg

My army needs to heal now but this must've been a heavy blow for Joao, i don't imagine he's got that many cuirassiers left really. Lucky, i should have MM'ed the attack on Cori leaving only one unit there or better yet do some exploration looking where all his units were, careless. I hadn't expected such a large stack so soon though. Whatever, they're gone now and i'm getting more optimistic about this adventure.

Next turns WW hits with a vengeance (i lost some cannons on the stack). I'm losing 100 gpt/turn at 0% science. Time to revolt to slavery/FM. Whipping'll help, smaller cities, less maintainance and the citizens present'll at least work tiles. I'll begin whipping colloseums aiming for 20% culture.

I heal up some but press on pretty quick towards Huamanga, city with some 12 longbows in it, these won't present trouble. 1530 i take it.Turns out Huyna hasn't enough culturual power and the next cities Lagos and Leiria can only be reached by walking 3 respective 2 turns through portugese culture. This means i'll have to heal my units 100% now so i can deal as best as possible with some counter attack. 1540 i begin the march from Huamanga to Lagos/Leiria. I hoped to split the stack, one half going for Leiria, half for Lagos.Leiria has alot of cuirassiers in it,Lagos also has 10+ units but they're defensively oriented and will fall easily to the cannons.

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s256/dirk1302/Leiria.jpg

Not taking any risk (splitting stack) i move the whole stack towards Leira. Taking out this city will also make arrival of reinforments a bit faster and getting rid of as many mounted units as possible is priority now.A huge stack always gives some extra security, AIs are reluctant to attack it even if they have the superior units to do so. I could have reached Leiria one turn sooner if i'd walked with the whole stack through Huyna land.My units would have ended up on the other site of the city though so it doesn't matter that much.

In the meantime Sal researches astro, i want peace with him now, not because i'm afraid of him but i hope to trade for astro. Joao has won the physics race and Gil has researched railroad. Around 1540 AD Joao hasn't got RP yet, 1545 he has it, 1555 he has rifles without trading. He must have researched in 2 turns. Gil does likewise researching combustion in about 2 turns. I always wonder about this, if the immortal ais would research as fast in the modern game as they do in the late industrial era they'd launch early 1800's consistently. Anyway i'll face rifles but much more dangerously cavs from now on.

I've taken cuirassiers city Leiria without much losses and head back to Lagos. Culture hasn't lifted sofar so i can't use roads yet. Seeing that Gaul's only lighlty defended i decide to split stack now taking both cities 1565 AD.

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s256/dirk1302/Gaul.jpg

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s256/dirk1302/Culture-free.jpg

Phase 1 completed.This is the situation i had in mind, now my new units can get through. My army is wounded and i take 3 turns healing also waiting for reinforcements before moving in on Lisbon, Oporto. Still can't see Portugese power rating but apart from the big 40 unit stack i killed when i began the war i've killed 10 units on average with every city i took without losing much units myself (cannons mostly). Looking at the log it's almost all green, most of the red entries being airship attacks.

In the meantime Cathy has declared on Sal again, i still can't get peace with him, won't be long now.I see now Cathy's not the only guilty one Sal has declared on her too. Huyna switches FM, helping my bleeding economy somewhat. I've been forced to whip my capital to 9 pop and it's unhappy again already.

1590 AD i'm good to go again, while i lost some cannons, the stack approaching Oporto, Lisbon is even bigger than the stack i began with.

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s256/dirk1302/Attack-1590.jpg

I've been drafting nonstop and there's a healty musket presence in the stack now. He city (cannons) draft city (muskets) are responsible for most of the units in the stack. There are also a lot of cannons that i whipped from unhappiness.A few minor cities on the easten coast + new cities whipped are responsible for the landsknechts in the stack. I could have been building grens for some time but they don't have any added value as i'm only harassed by cavs ocscasionally and Landsknechts do as good as grens here, promote better and are much cheaper. A cav for a Knecht is ok with me.

1610 i take both Oporto and Lisbon virtually winning the war, finally my cities'll be able to grow some again since i've taken Zeuss. I need to check Joao every turn from now on for capitulation. I'd like to have some more cities of him Coimbra and Guimares especially. What i specifically don't want is Joao vassalizing to Gil, it's not entirely in my hands but i'll take Joao's capitulation as soon as it comes up.

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s256/dirk1302/Lisbon-oporto.jpg

Overwiew:

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s256/dirk1302/Glance-1610.jpg

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s256/dirk1302/tech-1610.jpg

In the meantime Gil has researched physics and demo (don't think he traded with Joao because Joao hasn't got anything extra since rifles) He still has to do assembly line and electricity, before he can get to the really advanced techs like industrialization/radio.Seems he's not as fast as he was before but still some 10 techs ahead now.

Sal and Cathy are warring and stagnating so i can't trade with them. Techwise i don't think i'll see Gil again but there are excellent chances for a domination win now. Pity that Uruk isn't coastal though, would have made me feel better regarding an eventual desperation attack later. Anyway Huyna is on the charts next as soon as Joao capitulates.He's close to assembly line but he just doesn't have much units.

Next i'll tech assembly line , artillery myself,and pay Cathy/Sal a visit. Combustion would come in handy too for naval superiority. All this time Gil's been pleased with me, i'll convert to confucianism soon for extra safety and to get some techs from Joao once he's capitulated.

silverbullet

May 24, 2008, 07:15 AM

@Dirk:

That is an amazing (almost) recovery from a very tough situation. I am looking forward to the next report.

All:
Are we ready for Immortal University VII? Are most people done with this very difficult game or still playing it?

Dirk1302

May 24, 2008, 07:50 AM

I'll have some time to play next week.

tycoonist

May 24, 2008, 08:41 AM

please do start the next one. can we just have a random leader though?

Gliese 581

May 24, 2008, 10:45 AM

Go ahead and start the next if you want to, I'm likely to lag a bit as usual though I'm playing this right now. I'm at 1020 AD but like I said before it's looking quite grim so it's possible I'll lose. :)

silverbullet

May 24, 2008, 11:08 AM

please do start the next one. can we just have a random leader though?
What's the point of a random leader? If you don't want to decide about the leader yourself, why not let the others decide?
At this point I would rather not repeat any leader we have already played, as I want these threads to cover different play styles.
Anyway, I will start the vote and suggest random as one of the votes. I will re-generate the game if we repeat a leader already played though.

Rusten

May 24, 2008, 11:19 AM

I'm done, just haven't had time to make a report for the final phase yet.

Dirk1302

May 24, 2008, 09:37 PM

What's the point of a random leader? If you don't want to decide about the leader yourself, why not let the others decide?
At this point I would rather not repeat any leader we have already played, as I want these threads to cover different play styles.
Anyway, I will start the vote and suggest random as one of the votes. I will re-generate the game if we repeat a leader already played though.
Random leader isn't so bad in itself, now we've played 6 leaders already i don't want to repeat either. Don't have problems with playing a financial one this time though. I suggest going random but restart if we get one we've played already.

I might be alone here but if we've got a clear early rush situation again i also suggest restarting, starting pos and map are much more important than traits anyway imo. Difficulty with my proposal's that not eveyone 'll see an early rush where most will. I do think though that early rushing again will get us focused too much on some aspects of the game where we've been before neglecting other important aspects.

I'm good to play this week and i look forward to it. I'll finish and post about the Carolus game in the near future.

silverbullet

May 24, 2008, 10:52 PM

@Dirk
I agree about restarting if there is a clear rush situation. Let's just say that if the first 2~3 posters say they think we should restart we'll do it.
We have had 4 rush games out of 6 so far. (Suleiman and Louis didn't have rushes if i remember correctly).

I am looking forward to your game. I kept replaying this game over and over and I always lose :(
In my latest try I lost the internet by 4 turns. I think this game the AI has such a good land and relations that it is almost Deity equivalent difficulty.
I need something new, and I wouldnt' mind an easier game this time ;)

Gliese 581

May 25, 2008, 01:09 AM

Early rushes is what enables some of us to survive on this level. Or maybe we just kill ourselves slowly. ;)
I don't know if anyone is still interested in this game but if you are I'm happy to hear your thoughts on my position, I played up till 1400.

Part 4? (880 AD - 1400 AD):

Like Sleepless already told me (but which I somehow repressed) Joao already had Education at the end of the last round, he must have gotten it the last turn or so.
This meant there was no point in me trying to win the Liberalism race so I instead focused on growing vertically and getting more techs for this and the economy.

880 AD: After reading about the deity succession game Rusten is doing with Tokugawa and his tips on begging for exactly 40 gold I realized my begging skills hadn't been up to par for this game so I immediately went to HC and Joao to beg this amount. HC was happy to comply but Joao refused! I'm pretty certain it was my first request of Joao in this game but then again I wouldn't bet my life on it.

How long is it you have to wait between requests btw? I have an inkling it's either 40 or 60 turns but I can't remember. I'll go with 60 unless someone has more specific information.

Since I wasn't going for Liberalism there were no point in using the GS that spawned at the end of the last round for Philosophy so I sent him to Harry (where I moved the capital previously) to construct an Academy there. Seeing as the game is going to be an uphill struggle for tech parity I'll put my Oxford University here, my small empire of 8 cities should have no problem pushing the tech slider high pretty fast.

1010: I finish CS and start on MC -> Machinery to enable Macemen for some better defense. I switch to Bureacracy to cash in on all the cottages I've been working in Harry. Joao completes the Angkor Wat. The citizens of Angkor Wat don't know wheter they should take it as a compliment or a threat.
I get to trade CS to Gilgamesh.

http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn131/Gliese5812/CharlesD0000.jpg

Yep that's the best he would give me. I take a look at his fabled capital.

http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn131/Gliese5812/CharlesD0001.jpg

Yeah that's a horrible start, ALL grassland sure but only one food resource..pfft, loser.

1050 AD: Gilgamesh spreads judaism to me.

1080 AD: Joao discover Liberalism. Yes good thing I backed out of that race, would've been embarassing. He can take Nationalism and Astronomy but goes for Printing Press. I finish Machinery and go for Paper since I can trade it to HC. From this point on HC is my only trading partner and my tech choices are made accordingly. I have information on his research since he's gotten all my EPs almost since I first met him.

1100 AD: Joao asks me to accept judaism. I ponder this for a while but then I refuse, I still have lots of diplo points with him so he stays at pleased and I don't want to risk pissing off HC or get anarchy.

1130 AD: A GG is born abroad, finally some strife..

1140 AD: Gilgamesh complete the Spiral Minaret.

1150 AD: I make a trade with HC.

http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn131/Gliese5812/CharlesD0002.jpg

1180 AD: I make contact with one of the abroad civs.

http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn131/Gliese5812/CharlesD0003.jpg

He's the founder of buddhism and quite weak with only 6 or so cities.
HC completes the Taj Mahal in one of his border cities that already got a wonder, can't remember which, I have to watch out so I don't lose tiles to culture there.

1190 AD: Joao gets the circumnavigation bonus.

1240 AD: I discover Joao is WHEOOHRN but he's pleased at me and he's not a backstabber so I don't think I'm the target. Unless a bribe to start a war against me would make him WHEOOHRN first? He might be at war against the civ I've yet to meet.

1260 AD: Another trade with HC.

http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn131/Gliese5812/CharlesD0004.jpg

Unfortunately this made him WFYABTA. Was it a mistake to get monotheism here? I figured I might use Theocracy for drafting later and I need Monotheism for Theology.

1320 AD: A GS is born. I save him for a turn to complete Printing Press, then bulb Philosophy. Joao switched to Universal Suffrage pulling him down to cautious with me because of the earlier refusal to accept his state religion.
I decide now might be a good time to adopt judaism to get Joao back to pleased.
This on the other hand makes Saladin annoyed with me as long as I stay jewish and I won't be able to trade with him. I haven't traded with him so far although I have a few techs he don't since I haven't met the last civ yet that he's warring against and I don't want to bet on the wrong guy.

1400 AD: HC is WHEOOHRN. I fear I'm his intended target although last I saw his SOD was by Joaos border, I'm far weaker though. I'm sending spies to see where his troops are moving.
I have to make a decision on where to go from here. Either I go for Grenadiers/Cannons. My next GS could bulb part of Chemistry for that if I research Nationalism first (would want it for drafting anyhow). The GS could also be used for a golden age to switch some civics in anticipation of war.
I could also go the longer route to rifling but I lack 5 techs for that and can't make any trades unless I switch out of judaism/encounter the last civ and can trade with him/her.
What do you think is best?

The tech situation:

http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn131/Gliese5812/CharlesD0006.jpg

A shot of my empire:

http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn131/Gliese5812/CharlesD0005.jpg

Edit: Forgot the save!

Gliese 581

May 25, 2008, 01:46 AM

I read some more spoilers, did you abandon your second game silverbullet? I only saw up to 620 AD.
It's been some interesting reads so far, I thought the teching in my game is pretty bad but JBossch's game is insane. :eek:

Dirk1302

May 25, 2008, 11:18 AM

@Gliese 581

Looked at the save, your land looks good and your research of some 450 beakers/turn isn't bad either. Still i think you don't have enough land atm to compete with the big dogs. I'd build up an army and pay a visit across the ocean, Saladin is not totally backward but it'll take him some time to get to the real mililitary techs. Find the last civ out there. I don't know if an oversees attack'll win you the game,as silverbullet said this one is difficult. I think it's your best bet.

silverbullet

May 25, 2008, 11:31 AM

@Gliese
Yes, I abandoned my game and retried it several times, trying to copy starts from different players and continue from there.

In the game where the last save is 620AD I almost had a chance to win. I was last in tech, but could still trade a bit with the backward continent and beelined internet. I lost it by 4 turns.

My conclusion from this map and several retries is:

1) I am still not as good as most players here. Even if I copy their start and have advanced map knowledge I don't do as well :)
2) Every retry is highly random. If Gilgamesh and Joao have the same religion, the game can be brutally hard. In one of my best retries they had different religions, actaully making Capac and Joao good friends and Gilga was not so friendly to them, and was actually behind them in techs.
3) In my opinion Unconquered Sun's start is the strongest. Instead of rushing he focuses on early economy and then goes to war with catapults while still making the GL. It's like a rush and a tech lead all in one.
4) I had an experiement with no rush at all. I founded 4 cities and squeezed 2 garbage ones, winning the liberalism and taking steel. I attacked Sury with cannons and muskets. I am still behind, but overall it is not a bad start at all. I think this is a good practice for Deity when you are sometimes forced to have a small 4 city empire because the AI expands so fast and you have no real chance to rush them.

Question to experienced Deity players: Is rushing still a viable strategy on Deity at all? All online Deity game I have seen rely on reneisance wars for expansion, even if you are limited to 3~4 cities at first. My guess is that you need to focus on the first half of the game just to catch up to the huge advantage the AI has.

Dirk1302

May 25, 2008, 11:46 AM

@silverbullet

I've seen ABigCivFan successfully rushing in his first deity installment iirc.
I think all the conditions have to be right to pull it off successfully.Most of the deity starts i've seen on this board are pretty good starts with some room to expand.

About the current game, i find this game to be harder to play than the Monty diplomat deity game from some time ago and also an isolated start Darius game i once played,those were surprisingly easy to play. So i agree with you that this game at least appoaches deity level especially if Joao and Gil have their religions aligned.

But i'm interested in U Sun's and Rusten's (or other deity players) opinion here, they've more experience with deity situations than i have.

Dirk1302

May 25, 2008, 04:05 PM

1610-1894 AD

Last round i took Lisbon Oporto. I take Coimbra,Guimares and Evora easily. 1645 AD Joao capitulates giving me Braga in negotiations. I have 90% of the good Portugese land now, what's left is not really worth it anyway. Don't want Joao vassalizing to Gil and i want to get to Huyna asap after healing.

A look at portugese lands, i can really use those cottages.

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s256/dirk1302/Conqueredlands.jpg

1675 Declare on Huyna, He's just got assembly line. I hope to get him to capitulate asap. Good as they are cannons are just too weak for infantry, the rest of my army is hopelessly outdated with muskets/Landsknechts, Huyna's infantry'll have free picks here. But i sure have alot of them.

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s256/dirk1302/Huyna.jpg

Take Tiwa soon, he's started converting to Infantry though.

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s256/dirk1302/Hu-infantry.jpg

I capitulate Huyna 1765 AD, i lose alot of cannons, i had 32 when i declared, 21 are left and i've kept on producing cannons at least in HE city nonstop. I also lose some Muskets due to Infantry attacks but i've got loads of them, their only function is taking cities, a thing cannons can't do anymore. My eastern coast cities have almost finished drydocks and'll start building Galleons and some frigates soon.

1824 Ad It's Cathy's turn. First wave is small but sturdy with some infantry and artillery. Cathy has teched to infantry, as opposed to cannons artillery takes out infantry with minimal losses. I get almost 1000 gpt mostly from Portugese lands, commercial powerhouses those cities, so i can upgrade all of my army soon.

First wave
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s256/dirk1302/russi-attack.jpg

Soon to be upgraded reinforcements
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s256/dirk1302/russia-att-at-home.jpg

I tech to combustion to upgrade my fleet, i have total sea superiority now. 1860 i capture Moscow and my units get some breathing space. Gil has been researching in a steady tempo, he can research comps now. He's still some 8 major techs from space and i'm advancing towards the domination limit rapidly, 51% of land, 64% required 50% of 57% pop.The rest of the game'll see some tanks. At this stage my empire really mass produces units i have a rally point set and each turn some 6 units arrive there, far more than i need really.

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s256/dirk1302/Moscow.jpg

Don't encounter any further problems , destroy russia 1884 AD. War on Sal has been declared already,i move an artillery stack inland but i also do a coastal attack bombarding with destroyers then attacking with tanks. Gil was preparing to attack Sal for some time and takes Mecca fast. I take one coastal Sal city and he capitulates 1886 AD. I'm way over the land area domination limit now but probably due to WW i have to grow 3% of pop.

1892 a vote comes up for diplo win so i win diplo 1894 AD, reloaded would have gotten domination 1902 AD. Gil needs 5 techs at this moment to complete his bid for space.

Most challenging but also interesting game in the series for me hands down.Tough recovery from early war, breath taking lib race winning by one turn, difficult decisions between 1200-1500 AD resulting in an epic war against Joao(well actually i had expected some more resistance from him, first stack i killed must have hurt). After that it was essentially plain sailing.

Loved playing this one.

Rusten

May 26, 2008, 07:33 AM

An early rush on deity (BTS) is in my experience usually a bad move if there's room to expand. If you're going to go through with it you should have at least one of these conditions (preferrably both).
- a good UU (egyptian war chariot, persian immortal etc.)
- a neighbour that doesn't produce a lot of units and loves constructing wonders (Roosevelt, Pacal and the like).
Forests are good to have too.

On immortal you can match (and surpass with chopping) the AIs in terms of amount of cities and production, but deity means an extra starting city so they're far ahead in getting strategic resources and you'll have to go through cities to get to their capital.

I agree that the Monty diplomat game was rather easy (for being deity), but not all the starts posted are good (current SG one with Toku comes to mind). :)
The one with Pericles didn't have much good land to offer either, mostly tundra.

I considered rushing in the Monty diplomat game due to the killer capital and the aggressive trait, but as there was so much room to expand and as the closest neighbour was Kublai Khan I quickly had a change of heart.

TheMeInTeam

Nov 01, 2009, 05:16 AM

The older Immortal University games always carry a bit of mystique for me. In immortal U 1, Monty, I moved up from monarch to take a shot and got soundly flattened in an instant. Game's not very forgiving when you're +2 levels. Working from there, I kept meaning to attempt these games but usually morale wouldn't permit and other games were less intimidating...

Of course since then I've become a host of this series, but at the time I was just in awe :scan:.

So sometimes going back to some of these older games can be fun, especially because I've never actually played this map before and it seems it was quite popular in its time...

IMM/Normal

Accidental UN win while attempting culture...

I settled on the marble. Settling on the marble nevertheless guarantees 1 freshwater corn and also guarantees the best city tile in the game. With IMP it's hard to pass that up.

From there, I built 2 settlers to start (!), one to settle the gold/sheep and the other to grab wine/flood plain/etc. I've been experimenting with settler 1st lately and have found that as long as you have a 2H or 3F city tile or better, even though it is less efficient you can win city sites you'd not get otherwise. With IMP and a 3H tile it was too easy a choice.

Opening tech path fit the move: AG, AH, Mining, wheel (hut), fishing, writing, BW, pottery IIRC. No archery since sury is very close and we can spawnbust the ENTIRE DAMN AREA with a whopping 2 units (never saw a non-animal barb other than 1 late galley...)

So I got to 5 decent cities (chopped great library/national epic) and decided on a cat war vs sury. Sury actually DoW'd me first...but didn't have catapults yet and was a ways from longbows. My mostly swords/cats with some axes turn back his invasion force resoundingly and then it started looking pretty foul for sury...

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk134/themelnteam/Immortal%20U%20Charlie/Civ4ScreenShot0001.jpg

So he dies.

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk134/themelnteam/Immortal%20U%20Charlie/Civ4ScreenShot0002.jpg

Yikes, 3 different religions! But all 3 leaders remaining like HR, and I get all 3 to friendly (bulbs kept me in the tech picture by the way...)

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk134/themelnteam/Immortal%20U%20Charlie/Civ4ScreenShot0003.jpg

So from there I see I have a good set of religions, so I just head for democracy and start spreading them. I do a good ole boring 3 cathedral + cottages culture approach, aided by defensive pacts with pretty much everyone and friendly status.

Capac built the UN. Gilgamesh was #1 in pop, I was #2. So I'd need culture after all right?

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk134/themelnteam/Immortal%20U%20Charlie/Civ4ScreenShot0004.jpg

Right? What the hell? Well, HC put a free religion ballot up, and gilgamesh defied it (!). Then, HC called a UN victory resolution. Thanks to defiance, gilgamesh was NOT ELIGIBLE, and thus I defaulted to the opponent. The rest is how you see.

Not content with a fluke victory, I decided to see if mashing end turn a bunch would have gotten me the culture win:

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk134/themelnteam/Immortal%20U%20Charlie/Civ4ScreenShot0006.jpg

Damn it!

Haha, just kidding:

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk134/themelnteam/Immortal%20U%20Charlie/Civ4ScreenShot0007.jpg

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk134/themelnteam/Immortal%20U%20Charlie/Civ4ScreenShot0008.jpg

So the answer is, yes. You CAN go for culture on immortal like that, and get a boring/bland/bla 500 CPT or so in each city and beat the AI to space (it was easy to tell I'd beat Joao in culture).

But none of that counted actually due to the UN cheeze, so here's the UN score:

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk134/themelnteam/Immortal%20U%20Charlie/Civ4ScreenShot0005.jpg

It's been a while since I did a catapult throwdown since I find that hard on immortal usually. But sury was late to longbows so he can go to hell.