I seem to play all of my HOF games at Monarch because I know I will win and I am chasing a EQM. I've been thinking that I need to step up a level or two and so I've decided to start this game.

Leader: Isabella, Spanish
Starting Techs: Fishing Mysticism
Traits:
[tab]Spiritual (No anarchy; Double Production Speed of temple)
[tab]Expansive (+2 health per city; +25% Production of Worker; Double Production Speed of granary, harbor)
UU: Conquistador (12/2/100), replaces Cuirassier, +50% melee, does receive defensive bonus
UB: Citadel, replaces castle, +5 XPs for seige, -25% bombardment

Map: Inland Sea
Size: Standard
Opponents: 8 (see below)
Speed: Epic

I've used my random opponent tool to select my 8 opponents, excluding Isabella (duh), leaders that start with Mysticism (I want an early religion) and the Protective trait (I hate sitting bull).

Opponents
Mansa Musa ..... Financial ...... Charismatic
De Gaulle ......... Charismatic .. Industrious
Hammurabi ....... Aggressive ... Organized
Ragnar ............ Aggressive ... Financial
Louis XIV ......... Creative ...... Industrious
Suryavarman .... Creative ...... Expansive
Victoria ........... Financial ..... Imperialistic
Catherine ........ Creative ...... Imperialistic

I'll 'map finder' a start that contains stone (quick walls and citadel) tonight and start this game tomorrow. I'm also going to be playing with the latest BUG version. Write ups will be here.

Initial thoughts: build worker, tech religion, explore country, spam cities, no or minimal wonders.

Comments, feedback or brickbats welcome.


Starting save attached.
Starting position (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6828273&postcount=17)
Round #1 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6829826&postcount=33)
Round #2 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6830689&postcount=40)

Initial thoughts:tech religion.So you're taking the "pray Sury is on the other side of the map" approach?

EDIT: I made the mistake of being blinded by that alien's long, unpronounceable name.

Rather, it's the "pray Sury and Cathy are on the other side of the map" approach.

Well - none of the AIs start with Mysticism so I should be ok for the first religion (only going for 1).

Despite a small :nono: for no Mysticism + starting with stone, it looks like a fun setup. Knowing that you can found a religion of your choice makes going for it an interesting gambit -- I'm curious to see if you can expand your religion as fast as the AIs. At least spiritual should allow you to adopt/drop your religion when desired.

Inland sea does have substantial land area so the extra AIs shouldn't make it too crowded.

Looking forward to it :)

Edit: The worst case scenario is to be squashed between Surya and Cathy ... their Creative border pushing would be fun to deal with.

I noticed. Why are you so intent on founding one?

Religions are good, even if you don't adopt them -- missionaries mean that you can effectively build "transportable monuments", and the 30 hammer temples are a good source of early happiness.

The reason I avoid founding them is the significant chance of missing -- in which case your early beakers are wasted. Since that is not an issue in this game -- I'd consider founding one too.

if you tech religion, why build a worker? he won't have anything to do.

One of the reasons I avoid founding early religions like the plague, even at Monarch (my preferred level) is not because I feel they are weak, but I feel that "letting" the AIs have all the early religions increases the chances of "off screen conflict". Without religions to fight over, the AIs are more likely to end up buddy-buddy, and if you get a block of Happy-Hindu's at Immortal, you're in big trouble.

One of the reasons I avoid founding early religions like the plague, even at Monarch (my preferred level) is not because I feel they are weak, but I feel that "letting" the AIs have all the early religions increases the chances of "off screen conflict". Without religions to fight over, the AIs are more likely to end up buddy-buddy, and if you get a block of Happy-Hindu's at Immortal, you're in big trouble.

I agree, but with this many AIs it is more unlikely to have a single religious block ... I'd also like to see what Ruff can do with it. :mischief:

I noticed. Why are you so intent on founding one?Because I am playing Isabella and that is what she does.

if you tech religion, why build a worker? he won't have anything to do.Good point - I'll have to take a look at this when I start.

Because I am playing Isabella and that is what she does.Going to add a lake to that map search?

Going to add a lake to that map search?errrr no. Not going to look for snakes or a plain either :D.

IMO founding an early religion usually harms you more than it helps you; the AI usually outspams you with missionaries and your religion stays quite uninfluential. This way you risk that the 2nd, AI-founded, early religion will become too dominant.

But anyway, good luck with the game :).

I think I'll play this one too. At least it will have a good start (hello IU5!!!).

The best religion to get if you think in spreading is Judaism, because of being the first religion with the free missionary ;)

The first 3 religions don't get missionaries. The missionaries start at christianity/confucianism.

Here is my starting position. I have moved the warrior as indicated. I'm thinking of settling 1N of the current settler position.

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/1029/immortal0050sx2.jpg

Here is my starting position. I have moved the warrior as indicated. I'm thinking of settling 1N of the current settler position.Strategic resource 2S1E of the current position?

Everything else is forested except the corn and gems.

What wonders do you want the marble online for?

I do not suggest going for an early religion, and I don't even know why you adjusted the settings that way, but it should be an interesting game nonetheless. :) Settle in place, or 1 north, since there doesn't seem to be any better move.

Meanwhile, you'd better pray Suryavarmann II, Catherine, and Louis XIV are on the other continent. They are creative civs, which mean they will generally dominate the game, and unfortunately, all 3 of them are highly aggressive. I fear them more than Ragnar.

I'd also consider settling where the warrior is standing -- lots of commerce potential, if you're going to trade some beakers for an early religion this might be the game to do it :)

Can you post a 4000 BC save so we can shadow some Ruff? I never played that map script, and even though I suck at Immortal, I still like having a go now and then. Besides, if you DO go for a religion, I want to see what would happen without one.

EDIT: For whatever my advice is worth, since no AIs have Myst, you are pretty much a lock for the religion, so wasting 1 turn moving the settler 1N is a reasonable sacrifice at Epic speed. It would also bring one of those non-forest grassland holes into play. You may also want to consider 1NE. It would make almost every tile in the BFC on a river (1N has lots of river tiles as well, though)

Can you post a save so we can shadow some Ruff? I never played that map script, and even though I suck at Immortal, I still like having a go now and then. Besides, if you DO go for a religion, I want to see what would happen without one.I attached the 4000BC to the first post. Please don't spoil my fun by revealing stuff I haven't seen. I'm getting lots of 'don't go early religion' so if (when :D) I lose, everyone can say ... "see, told you".

Never would consider it bro, I rarely ever post about shadows of RPCs I play, unless the OP specifically asks for reports. I play a LOT of them, too, and never post about my own game. I wont even likely finish, I just like to see the contrast for my own personal strategy bank.

Strategic resource 2S1E of the current position? What wonders do you want the marble online for?Some people's NSEW directions are mixed up. I have no idea what 2S1E looks like as it is in the fog. Marble? That is stone! Not sure about wonders yet.
You may also want to consider 1NE. It would make almost every tile in the BFC on a river (1N has lots of river tiles as well, though)Yes, this capital will rock when it gets a levee.

Never would consider it bro, I rarely ever post about shadows of RPCs I play, unless the OP specifically asks for reports. I play a LOT of them, too, and never post about my own game. I wont even likely finish, I just like to see the contrast for my own personal strategy bank.Feel free to post historic differences if you think that my play was sub-optimal or brilliant. This is planned to be a learning experience.

Yes, this capital will rock when it gets a levee.

This capital will rock at size 2 -- both corn and gems riverside :D

Good luck. :)

The best religion to get if you think in spreading is Judaism, because of being the first religion with the free missionary ;)

You don't get a free missionary for the Judaism, but it's the religion with the highest chance of spreading.

I have no idea what 2S1E looks like as it is in the fog.You can see from the screen shot that the tile 2S1E of the settler is an unforested plains tile. I think it's guaranteed to be a resource, though as you point out the tile is still enshrouded in fog. It could still be any of the non-strategic resources, or even one of the late game resources.That is stone!I are blind.

That makes the decision to move even harder. 3rd ring stone will put stonehenge and possibly the great wall out of reach. Settling an early city for it seems like a waste to me.

If he's intent on getting an early religion it doesn't really matter that much that the stone is in his 3rd ring. He'll get the 3rd border pop quickly with the extra 5 :culture: per turn. I'd settle in place.

He'll get the 3rd border pop quickly with the extra 5 :culture: per turn.Good point.

So is the plan to settle in place, get a worker out, mine the gems and take the religions? There could be a chance at still getting both medi/poly, even with researching mining. Are any of these AIs known to tech meditation over polytheism? I know most AIs go for poly, and some leave meditation off even longer than I do.

Btw, the tile I was talking about could be an unforested grassland. Blue marble really throws me off.

And I managed to entirely overlook the unforested grassland hill 1E of the settler.

Thx for the input. I'm going to settle 1N of my current settler position. I want to pull a few more grassland tiles into my capital for cottaging later. The capital will still have heaps of production so that shouldn't be an issue. The one thing that I think I am giving up is the 3H tile in the first ring (+25% worker production would mean 4H IIRC) which will slow down my worker a bit. Given that I might not have any worker techs, that might not be an issue.

Hot water heater started leaking over-night so that might delay the start of this game a bit.

Killer start Ruff, gotta love Mapfinder. Did you ask for gems and stone? As predicted, at size 2, the capitol is already a MONSTER.

One thing thats going to cause some difficulty for you in this game though is the AI names. You have 2 French AIs, and although each has his own color, you wont be able to tell which "Vile French" the other AIs want you to stop trading with, heh. I had a similar game with all the female leaders, and I couldnt tell which "vile English" Boudi wanted me to stop trading with, since she bordered both Liz and Vicky.

All it takes is a slight WB modification, name one French-L and one French-DG or something. In my game, it was only Prince level, and I was already at the point where diplomacy didnt matter, I let em all eat cake, but this game . . . you are going to need some crafty diplomatic moves, especially with your religious plan. Now, you MAY be able to tell which French leader they are referring too with simple deduction and reasoning, but it might get hairy later on, especially with some of these AIs you chose, heh.

Plumber has come and gone ... I'm getting a new water heater. No idea how many $s that is going to set me back :(.

I moved 1N and settled. Quickest religion was 15 turns away. Best worker tech (agriculture) was 14 turns away. A worker would take me 23 turns based on working the corn. Quicker when I get the border pop. At that pace, I would have a worker sitting round doing bugger all for about 9 turns. So ...

Madrid begins: Stonehenge (180 turns)

I pop some gold from the hut and continue North with my warrior, planing to swing E and then bring him back down S for a complete loop of my capital and to map out future city sites.

Turn 5 I meet the French (De Gaulla) - his scout to my capitals West. I think he is to my North (confirmed in later turns). Maybe I shouldn't have put to French leaders in the game ... you know the situation, AI dials you up and says "stop trading with the French" but you don't know which one.

Turn 8 I meet the French (deja vu) but this time it is Louis XIV (the sun king). His scout came in from the NW so I might have the other France further to France #1's West. This might get funny ... "De Gaulla: Come join us in War. The French are plotting our destruction".

Turn 9: Babylonian scout (Hammurabi) from the South and my border pops. I can now work the 3H tile bring my worker production down to 18 turns. Agg would be finished in 8+14 turns so I can still put off starting my worker for a few more turns.

Turn 13: Grow to size 2. Worker will now take 15 turns, agg tech available in 4+14 (18) so I can put 3 more turns into Stonehenge before swapping.

Also, this is where I stop and ask for input as ...

http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/2966/Immortal-0070.jpg

Over-view of land so far ...

http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/9417/Immortal-0069.jpg

So, do I steal the worker or not? It will bring the De Gaulle down on me but is that a problem?

Killer start Ruff, gotta love Mapfinder. Did you ask for gems and stone?

All it takes is a slight WB modification, name one French-L and one French-DGWhy!!! Why didn't you post before I played. Or why didn't I read this post before I played.

I just asked mapfinder for stone - it gave me 3 starts after looking at 100. I selected the one with the gems :D. Naturally, this was within the HOF mod so I had to save the WB game as a scenario and then start from there. It would have been child's play to change the names of the French. Maybe I can still do it - I know some things restart (GPP production, will not talk, AI attitude and stuff like that) but that shouldn't be a huge problem after 13 or so turns. Heck - I'll rename the French guys as you suggest.

Edit: It reset my tech and my 13 hammers into stonehenge. I'll go back to the original WB file and make the changes there - will require some replay but this isn't a HOF entry so who cares? :D

So, do I steal the worker or not? It will bring the De Gaulle down on me but is that a problem?Only if you're pursuing wonderspam and religious fervor.

Sorry man, I didnt even think about it until I had met both French leaders. You could probably re-start and nearly duplicate those turns, its not like you have a ton of pre-knowledge that would give you any kind of unfair advantage.

Sorry man, I didnt even think about it until I had met both French leaders. You could probably re-start and nearly duplicate those turns, its not like you have a ton of pre-knowledge that would give you any kind of unfair advantage.Which is what I did. I met the two French leaders in the other order this time - funny little differences like that could make a tree fall down in Africa.

Kill either french civ and you won't get them mixed up.

thx pigswill - that might be one of the options. Just got an email from the person who did the editing of the WB file and he said that he also moved a river - not sure why - but he left some floodplains on desert tiles. He sent me another file - so I get to restart again.

I replayed (again) and scored a scout from the hut instead of Gold. Played thru to the turn where I could take the worker ... and so I did (the reasoning is that I can stiffle De Gaulle's development - force him into producing units instead of settlers.

http://img371.imageshack.us/img371/3853/Immortal-0000.jpg

Turn 15/750 (3625 BC) [17-May-2008 16:04:00]

After End Turn:
Tech acquired (trade, lightbulb, espionage): Meditation
Buddhism founded in Madrid
Buddhism has spread: Madrid

I stop here. I have a worker who has nothing to do so he is guarding the capital. I have a scout way the ^@$@# out West (see below) and a warrior who is threatening De Gaulle's 3 archers in his capital (see below). Research is set to mining to mine the gems (better tech rate) and on its way to copper.

The lay of the land ...
http://img371.imageshack.us/img371/5804/Immortal-0002.jpg

Scout
http://img371.imageshack.us/img371/8600/Immortal-0004.jpg

French Capital
http://img371.imageshack.us/img371/6425/Immortal-0003.jpg

If you remember, I'm in a phony war with De Gaulle ... all he has to do to kill me is actually turn up. I start a warrior and tech mining while my new worker sits on the gems waiting.

Turn 28 I met Ragnar, turn 34: Katherine, swap to slavery on the discover of BW (turn 51) and on turn 56, I whip my settler for 2 pop and enough overflow to finish Stonehenge - a nice 2-for.

Turn 30, I get this ...
http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/8219/Immortal-0014.jpg

... so no more war.

Dot map for the North ...
http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/8959/Immortal-0020.jpg

And for the South ...
http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/5127/Immortal-0021.jpg

swap to slavery on the discover of BW (turn 51) and on turn 56, I whip my settler for 2 pop and enough overflow to finish Stonehenge - a nice 2-for.


Why did you swich to slavery ASAP? You are spiritual so it doesn't really matter when you swich and revolting on the turn 56, just before the whip, would have saved you 5 turns of risking the slave revolt.


Otherwise nice turns. The dot map looks OK, I would go for the southern green dot first. Two :) ressources can be huge that early.

Why did you swich to slavery ASAP? You are spiritual so it doesn't really matter when you swich and revolting on the turn 56, just before the whip, would have saved you 5 turns of risking the slave revolt.That is a good point. Something to remember for future.
Otherwise nice turns. The dot map looks OK, I would go for the southern green dot first. Two :) ressources can be huge that early.Its a toss up between Southern Green and Northern Green. Southern for the happy resources and Northern to stop France getting copper.

I feel that my land is squeezed while De G has all of the top right to expand into. I need to get a fog buster / mapper out to check out how much room I have in the South.

Expand North first. You have to get one more city in the South, and it is one I think AC is unlikely to steal. Also, copper is nice. Obviously you won't be settling orange, and purple looks... what is purple for?

purple, orange and light blue are definite filler cities. Light blue should be good for commerce with the dyes (??) directly South.

A battle plan fueled by cats and phants is forming in my mind. :satan:

would have saved you 5 turns of risking the slave revolt.Was the city even large enough to revolt? Min. pop is 4, right?

Was the city even large enough to revolt? Min. pop is 4, right?

min. pop. is 4 and as he whiped the settler for 2 pop he must have been at least at the size 4

ruff, are you still playing?

yes - need to write up a bit more - stuck with 3 cities and what feels like a slow tech rate. going to movies (Indie Jones) with the wife - will try and post an update tonight.

currently having fun drafting the heck out of my civ (different game) and rifling Khan.

Still writing eh?

More than a month since your last round :rolleyes: