I've been lurking on this forum for a good 3-4 years now, and I finally have a question to ask.

I usually play as a builder. I can pretty much wipe up the floor as far as out teching people on noble, and I can keep up without warring on Prince. But it seems like I can only go to war when macemen pop up. It seems like whenever I finally get my SoD of axemen/swordsman/catupults up they are obsolete and they end up getting demolished by enemy longbowmen. I just can't seem to figure out when to start preparing for an early rush.

I can run a CE and a SE, but I usually run a mixed econmy. My problem is that whenever I try to goto war early I neglect my teching to the point where I fall behind and I pretty much end up securing a loss. I can't seem to find a balance of making a decent sized army and warring while keeping my economy afloat. It just collapses on me, and then I get outteched and all of a sudden I'm at a huge disadvantage. How do you guys go about doing this? I can't seem to figure it out. :confused:

Try culture flipping.

Im horrible at war too, but in the recent PYL i tried using culture instead of soldiers. Its like an elegant form of war, you get new land and cities, but without all the risk and WW from normal war, and it doesnt completely kill your teching if you have pyramids.

Hmmm. Sounds like you delay the rush too much. A rush is intended to be a rush - preferably before the enemy even links up metal or horses, you should have 4-8 axes knocking on his door.

Try playing with Gilgamesh of Sumeria, and beeline BW (and wheel to connect copper), chop out a settler to settle copper, then pump out some vultures and kill off your neighboor.

Remember that this is not a metastrategy. If you have no metals, you cant axerush, and if your neighboor is PRO, itll be harder. Especially Sitting Bull can be a PITA.

Do not accept all cities - raze some, keep the best ones (wonders, location, religion).
Build courthouses, develop the new cities ASAP.
Know your war objective before you go to war. When you achieve it - quit!

It's ok if you'r horrible at it. The AI is horrible too...

I'll have to try some of this stuff out when I get off work. I usually don't keep all the cities I conquer, and sometimes I'll even prep a settle beforehand and get a city in there where I actually want it sometimes.

I've tried the early axe rush but it seems like by the time I get there they've got archers and city defenses are already around 30-40%. I guess more work at it?

Even simple things such as promotions & terrain have huge impacts on the outcomes in battles. And I've noticed even the monarch players tend to chose god-awful promotions while thinking they are somehow still getting the best of it. So even when you get up to THAT level, you will STILL have lots to master yet.

A good place to start, is look at the combat log, and start to analys it until it ALL CLICKS in your head.

And I've noticed even the monarch players tend to chose god-awful promotions while thinking they are somehow still getting the best of it.Interesting, could you give an example?

Thanks in advance.

I'll have to try some of this stuff out when I get off work. I usually don't keep all the cities I conquer, and sometimes I'll even prep a settle beforehand and get a city in there where I actually want it sometimes.

I've tried the early axe rush but it seems like by the time I get there they've got archers and city defenses are already around 30-40%. I guess more work at it?

For an axe rush you want 2 cities ideally of your own and max of 3. Produce at least three workers, barracks in both cities then nothing but axes, clearcutting every forest in sight to build around 8 axes and then send them out. Practice doing this - you can get an army out very quickly with chopping. Keep building axes until the war ends, but include some spears and archers in the mix. Keep taking cities until your opponent is dead, you research alphabet and have good trades for peace or you reach a point on the slider that you don't think you can absorb any more cities. Keep researching using the cash from your conquests to pay for your expenses. Don't waste cash on upgrades.

I never raze cities myself but I'm probably prepared to accept more of an economic hit than most people. If my economy doesn't crash down to under 20% science then I haven't been aggressive enough and need to take more cities. In fact 0% is common if I axe rush. Scientists can always be used to recover your research.

One thing I learned as I went up difficulty levels was to be more singleminded about either research or military. If I am teching, then thats my focus. If I am preparing for war then I accept that I am losing out on tech and concentrate on military - slavery is fantastic for raising a big army quickly.

Building a bigger army means a short term hit to your tech rate, but pays off because the war is much shorter and more successful. You solve the economic hit of paying for a big military by building an even bigger one and then using it. If your wars are long and slow and you are falling behind because of them it means you army is too small and you should have built more troops.

Even simple things such as promotions & terrain have huge impacts on the outcomes in battles. And I've noticed even the monarch players tend to chose god-awful promotions while thinking they are somehow still getting the best of it. So even when you get up to THAT level, you will STILL have lots to master yet.

A good place to start, is look at the combat log, and start to analys it until it ALL CLICKS in your head.
Well, there is not an awful lot of useful discussion about this. Even the in-depth walk throughs and demo games rarely give this topic the attention that it deserves. Analyzing the combat log is very tedious at best.

I think there are a few good rules of thumb regarding promotions, one of which is that stacking one kind of promotion is usually better than spreading them out. So going Drill I -> II -> III is better than having Drill I, Combat I and City Garrison on the unit.

Stacking City Raider is awesome anyway, even if its not optimal percentage-wise in some cases, because Riflemen and Infantry with CR III kick some serious *ss.

Stack protectors get counter-promotions.

Have I missed anything? I don't want to be one of those Monarch players who suck at promoting their units.

The only thing I'm not sure about is how to promote siege weaponry for best effect. So if anybody has some tips there I'd be grateful.

Collateral damage
Collateral damage
Collateral damage

The c-log is only tedious when you haven't seen it before. If you want to get a real understanding, then you better well LEARN exactly how combat flows.

If it were just so simple that you didn't have to care how any of that is handled or processed, then no one would have any real decisions to make. No one would even have to decide on promos. In fact, everyone would basically be an expert. The game would be very boring, and no one would want to play. However... the fact is, if you really want to master warfare, then you will have to do a bit of work...

You want to talk about drill? I am pretty certain that more than half the monarch players don't even understand how drill really works. In fact, past threads of drill discussions on this form seem to prove this to me.

Using the combat-odds indicator to gauge how a drill unit will perform is only used by someone who has no understanding on how this promo is supposed to even be used. And yet, this is what most people do.

Actually you don't need to know much about promotions to succeed at the lower levels of this game. I play emperor/immortal and I never ever use drill and don't know much about promotions in general so go figure.
The way I see it you need to make a good plan and then you need varying degrees of focus on it depending on level, the higher up you go the more you need to focus on specific goals.

Edit: One thing you probably SHOULD think about though, don't use them until you need them.

The c-log is only tedious when you haven't seen it before. If you want to get a real understanding, then you better well LEARN exactly how combat flows.
I've read an in-depth guide on the combat mechanics long ago and not revisited it since. IIRC the two important aspects are how first strikes are resolved and how promotions vs. counter promotions are figured into the "effective" strength numbers. I would recommend perusing such a guide, which explains the actual mechanics, instead of trying to reverse engineer it from the combat logs.

You want to talk about drill? I am pretty certain that more than half the monarch players don't even understand how drill really works. In fact, past threads of drill discussions on this form seem to prove this to me.
I assume that knowing about first strikes and knowing about Drill are one and the same thing. Or is there some hidden knowledge to be had about the Drill promotion specifically?

Using the combat-odds indicator to gauge how a drill unit will perform is only used by someone who has no understanding on how this promo is supposed to even be used. And yet, this is what most people do.
How is the promo supposed to be used, then?

@OP:

A common mistake in later wars (i.e., not an early rush) is to not make enough siege units. About half of your stack should be catapults in the early going. Keep making replacements and don't be afraid to lose a few; their collateral damage output means your main assault units (swords, axes, whatever) have a much easier go of it. Sisiutil's stack of doom article is worth a read or two.

Going to war is a commitment. Your entire civ needs to go on a war footing until you have achieved your objective or determine to cut it short.

As far as promotions go ... don't use any until you arrive at the battle, then pick the right ones for the job. Catapults should get City Raider I then Accuracy; if you have extras, you can give them Barrage promotions for more collateral damage after the Accuracy cats knock down the walls. Assault units should get the City Raider promotions. Your other units are defensive, counter-units and should be given Combat I and the appropriate countering promotion. A medic is also handy and is typically a chariot or spearman.

I've tried the early axe rush but it seems like by the time I get there they've got archers and city defenses are already around 30-40%. I guess more work at it?

The key is numbers. For an early rush you should assume that this will be the case (except that culture defense is either 20 or 40, not 30-40). On Monarch+ AI starts with archers so you will always see them in cities yet early rushes can still succeed. On Prince- you may get lucky sometimes (saw pop BW from early hut and have copper at the captial) and meet them with warriors which of course is an easy win. But if they have archers, you should be ok if you have 2 axes for each opposing archer, you'll get poor odds against the healthy archers but will generally damage them enough that your extra units can handle them easily.

@OP:
As far as promotions go ... don't use any until you arrive at the battle, then pick the right ones for the job. Catapults should get City Raider I then Accuracy; if you have extras, you can give them Barrage promotions for more collateral damage after the Accuracy cats knock down the walls. Assault units should get the City Raider promotions. Your other units are defensive, counter-units and should be given Combat I and the appropriate countering promotion. A medic is also handy and is typically a chariot or spearman.

Definitely do this. The only units I promote before the turn before a battle are stack defenders. Everything else should wait until you attack.

thanks for the help guys. time to go try out this stuff.

and to go off on another tangent here, what's the best way to effectively use mounted units? is it for pillaging? seems like they always get slaughtered by enemy spearmen. also is the withdraw promo generally worth it?

sorry im dropping so many questions but some parts of the combat in this game have confused me. I'm pretty decent late game but early game has always thrown me for a total loop.

thanks for the help guys. time to go try out this stuff.

and to go off on another tangent here, what's the best way to effectively use mounted units? is it for pillaging? seems like they always get slaughtered by enemy spearmen. also is the withdraw promo generally worth it?

sorry im dropping so many questions but some parts of the combat in this game have confused me. I'm pretty decent late game but early game has always thrown me for a total loop.

If you want to pillage with mounted units, it's useful to take some units for defend them, for example, shock axes. The axes will counter the spearmen.

since the beginning of video games of this sort building a lot of units and attacking early is always a good strategy. Use guerilla or Woodsman for movement and think numbers and speed. Raze all cities. Especially if its a good city with lots of wonders. I refer to this as the "anti-greed" factor
as greed is a newbie killer and many an advanced players achille's heel.

I suggest if one is weak at war to , 1. select an aggressive leader.
2. select a civ with a sword uu. 3. Beeline to iron and build guerilla/woodsman promoted stack with a settler. 4. Raze and settle
and use the spite factor to gloat with great generals that u should always attach to a unit and call it "destroyer of rome" or something.

Think of the origin of life. it's based on explosions. smashing things into each other. the natural way of life is conflict ,war , and expansion.:scan:

Catapults should get City Raider I then Accuracy; if you have extras, you can give them Barrage promotions for more collateral damage after the Accuracy cats knock down the walls.
What I would like is to minimize the number of suicides while keeping the collateral damage as high as possible. I think that the retreat odds for a siege weapon are its "winning" odds, which are resolved against the strongest defender in the city.
For that reason it seems to me that one should have multiple City Raider siege weapons for the initial attack, then Barrage siege for subsequent rounds.

I usually give CR promotions to all of them, meaning less collateral damage per catapult, but a higher overall survival rate. A cat that survives with 5 hp is one more unit that I won't have to replace and move to the front. Obviously you need a medic unit to heal those up reasonably quickly.

A medic is also handy and is typically a chariot or spearman.
I've been thinking lately about what the "perfect" medic warlord would be. Obviously it would have to be a 2-movement unit, and there the choices are limited:
Chariot (or the corresponding UUs)
Scout
Explorer
Impi (Zulu UU)
Probably the Explorer is the best choice, because it does ignore all terrain movement costs, meaning that it will move two tiles per turn no matter what. Chariots are slowed down by forest and desert/ice. The Impi gets a free Mobility promotion to the same effect.

The Explorer is also never used in an attack (can only defend), so you won't accidentally suicide your medic during a stack attack if it's an Explorer. The downside is that you can not promote the unit further. The Explorer will have to be built with 7 XP out of the box so you get access to the level 6 promotion (will usually be Morale for 1 extra movement range).

The "perfect" healer is definitely an Impi with Woodsman III and Medic III as well as Morale, but it requires a lot of XP (it might be achievable if you give it Leadership first and use it in every fight to kill weak units).

The only thing I'm not sure about is how to promote siege weaponry for best effect. So if anybody has some tips there I'd be grateful.

Depends on what you are using them for. Attacking cities, I'd say CR for catapults, perhaps with the occasional bombard promo. After CRIII, either Combat or Collateral.

Attacking stacks, Catapults get Combat I, then Shock, mostly. Sometimes Combat I Cover, else Combat or Collateral all the way.

Trebuchets are something completely different. Since these have an innate +100% against cities, they are ofcourse only used for attacking cities.
But it is here some of the complicated math enters the scene. Say your Treb is attacking a fortified Swordsman in a city without culture. You have 2 promotions available.

Odds without promotions:
4 v 6 / (1 + 1 (innate treb) - .25 (fortify) = 4 v 3.43
Odds with CR I + CR II:
4 v 6 / (1 + 1 (innate treb) + .45 (CR) - .25 (fortify) = 4 v 2.73
Odds with Combat I + Shock:
4 * (1 + .1 (combat)) v 6 / (1 + 1 (innate treb) + .25 (Shock) - .25 (fortify)) = 4.4 v 3
Odds with Combat I + Combat II:
4 * (1 + .2 (combat)) v 6 / (1 + 1 (innate treb) - .25 (fortify)) = 4.8 v 3.43

Because of the fact that any other promotions than combat, along with the trebs innate attack bonus, modifies the defender makes it worth promoting the Treb with Combat or Drill if the defender has few or no modifiers.
The :strength:ratio between attacker and defender in the example above is:
4 v 3.43: 1.17 times defender :strength:
4 v 2.73: 1.47 times defender :strength:
4.4 v 3: 1.47 times defender :strength: (third decimal is larger than above)
4.8 v 3.43: 1.40 times defender :strength:

While the results of this might not talk my cause strictly, I tend to wait to promote the Trebuchets till I stand at the gates. Against a unit with little or no bonuses (like 35% -), and/or with low base strength, I tend to go Combat or even Drill. Try it, just to see how it works. Generally, I hover over the city before attacking. If enemys modified strength is below around 3, maybe even 3.5, I go combat. If even lower, and if I have 2 promos available, I might go drill.


Ofcourse later on (Cannons+), I go CR I + Bombard for cities, or simply CR all the way. Might be funny to try the Combat line when wrapping up a game against longbows...

the best medic attack force is the Aztec Jaguar or Celtic Swordsman.

When they appear there is plenty of jungle, always 2 move,always hills -and they can fight horse and chariots.

Their only counter is Axe and they can cut off iron and bronze like horror raiders from the woods and hills. Impi- limited, Chariot-underpowered -
Explorer/Scout-waste (Units are meant to attack and die not medic around like cowards)

Gallic sword and Jaguar, best units in the game by all evidence.

the best medic attack force is the Aztec Jaguar or Celtic Swordsman.

Explorer/Scout-waste (Units are meant to attack and die not medic around like cowards)
Apparently you don't quite grasp the concept of a medic warlord...

I think a chariot is the superior medic, it doesn't receive defensive bonuses and so has a minimal chance of being chosen as stack defender. Also you don't need 7xp to get it to level 6, you usually only need to take out one unit which you can do at 99,9% odds when you have a badly damage enemy.
I like to give my medics march, if it's going to keep up with a specific SOD which is typically the case for me then it's not going to need to move any faster/better than the stack it's protecting which is at the very best 2 normal moves/turn.

The medic warlord fantasy is indeed a good science fiction story to tell. However,
experience has shown that a Great General Sword has better combat and can kill better than a scout or an explorer.

Pillaging is very good early on. I play Immortal, and if I rush all out my economy will without question be negative at 0 percent and Ill be surviving solely off pillaged gold and a dream that one day the scientists in athens will learn the secrets of the abc's.

That being said, at the prince level, simply dedicate a city or two to solely building military units (make a point of founding a heroic epic city somewhere). I dont know, a good rule I used through monarch was to have a production city for every two econ cities I had.

Going to war is a commitment. Your entire civ needs to go on a war footing until you have achieved your objective or determine to cut it short.

THIS. I was a lousy warrior, too, until I figured out that, in order to be a good warrior, you actually have to be willing to sacrafice a significant portion of the economic, technological, and cultural development of your civ in a gambit to gain more land/population/resources. A half-***ed war effort works on the lower difficulty levels because you'll almost certainly start with a significant tech advantage.

The hard part isn't really how to run the war-- it's how to decide when and for how long to go into full-bore war production mode (Hint: do it well before the first shots are fired).

THIS. I was a lousy warrior, too, until I figured out that, in order to be a good warrior, you actually have to be willing to sacrafice a significant portion of the economic, technological, and cultural development of your civ in a gambit to gain more land/population/resources. A half-***ed war effort works on the lower difficulty levels because you'll almost certainly start with a significant tech advantage.

The hard part isn't really how to run the war-- it's how to decide when and for how long to go into full-bore war production mode (Hint: do it well before the first shots are fired).

This is situational. I've fought wars without using all my production, even at emperor. The problem comes is the AI stack size. However, if you're playing some backstab or dog pile nonsense, you can easily take cities with just a production city or two. You can also get away with it against tech whores who don't like their power rating, such as MM or Ghandi. Nobody likes ghandi anyway b/c of his peaceweight.

In non-war times I usually produce troops constantly out of a production city or two though, so I've often accumulated enough to do some damage, especially because the AI fights really stupidly and is perfectly willing to suicide stacks into 100% defense. Any kind of mixed stack on D will crush the AI. Hell even if you just have walls, HA's will be attacking spears with 12 strength, and even archers get ridiculous :eek:

If the AI takes catastrophic losses like that it's pretty easy to mow them down afterwards.

Oh yeah. The ideal medic is a M3 W3 unit with 2 moves. Probably possible after building red cross for charismatic leaders. I don't see a reason you'd need more than 2 moves...the stack will never move faster than that in enemy territory...what are you making massed commando mech infantry or something? If you can do that, you're probably not in need of a medic :nuke:.

I'm happy with a M3 explorer or even a scout. I do use chariots occasionally also.

My advice for all-out war footing was to help the OP, an admitted war-newb. As you learn how to wage war, and how many units you need, you can crank out most of your troops from a few cities.

Obviously, your cottage / GP farm isn't going to have much in the way of production, and arguably ordering it to build units once every 8-12 turns is less helpful than focusing on gold/GP/beakers.

To the OP: if you go on a war of conquest early and keep cities, make sure you can deal with the economic consequences. Having a library in each city, and having enough food to run two science specialists, will save your bacon when the research slider starts falling. Getting currency is also important early so that you can sell techs for cash and build wealth in your cities to keep your war machine afloat.