The c-log is only tedious when you haven't seen it before. If you want to get a real understanding, then you better well LEARN exactly how combat flows.

If it were just so simple that you didn't have to care how any of that is handled or processed, then no one would have any real decisions to make. No one would even have to decide on promos. In fact, everyone would basically be an expert. The game would be very boring, and no one would want to play. However... the fact is, if you really want to master warfare, then you will have to do a bit of work...

You want to talk about drill? I am pretty certain that more than half the monarch players don't even understand how drill really works. In fact, past threads of drill discussions on this form seem to prove this to me.

Using the combat-odds indicator to gauge how a drill unit will perform is only used by someone who has no understanding on how this promo is supposed to even be used. And yet, this is what most people do.

Obsolete recently posted this. I have the slightest clue what first strike does or mean. Can anyone explain?

A first strike is a combat round that you can't receive damage from. If you win, you damage the opponent as you would if you won a normal round. If you lose, nothing happens. if you don't know enough about combat mechanics to understand that explanation, hit the war academy.

A combat is a succession of round. In each round, one of the unit will suffer damage.

Example: a warrior facing a warrior. Each unit has 100 hit points (HP) and a strength of 2, no modifiers. In each round, the chances for each unit to hit the opponent is 50/50. Damages have a standard value of 20.
1st round: warrior 1 wins the 50/50 contest. warrior 2 is down to 80 HP.
2nd round: same, w2 is down to 60 HP
3rd round: warrior 2 wins, w1 is down to 60 HP
And it continues until one unit dies.

The % of victory and the damage inflicted depend of the relative strength of both units. If on unit has strength 4 against 2 for the opponent, it will inflict damage 66.7% of the time, and suffer damage from the 2 strength unit 33.3% of the time. Damages are also more, or less, than 20.

What does 1st strike do? If a unit has, lets say, 2 more first strike than its opponent, it will not suffer damage during the first 2 round, even if it loses them.
So, if w1 in the example above has 2 first strike, it will not change anything, since it won the 2 first rounds. If it has 3, it will not suffer the damages on the 3rd round.

After, we could talk about how combat is multiplicative on attack, but this is another debate :D

The drill promotions basically have the potential to turn your units in to the original Han Solo--i.e., they shoot first. ;)

Drill promotions either give you a "first strike chance" or better yet, a "first strike", possibly more than one of them. This means your unit gets to attack first and inflict damage on its opponent before the opponent can, in turn, hit back. If successful, your unit could be facing a considerably weakened attacker and may win battles despite having the odds against them.

Which I gather is what Obsolete was getting at. As I understand it, Drill promotions are not taken into consideration in the combat odds indicator. Thus, a unit with Drill IV appears to have no better combat odds than a similar unit with no promotions whatsoever. The reality, however, is quite different.

Drill is part of the odds calculator in the latest patches.

What it doesn't show is that drill units end up with more hitpoints on average if they manage to win.

Thanks JuJuLautre, I like drill alot but never realized exactly how it works... :rolleyes: :blush:

Whilst there are a number of units immune to first strikes, mostly Mounted units (War Chariot and Horse Archers up to Cuirasseurs), 1 Melee unit (Holkan), 1 Gunpowder unit (Oromo); How do these units fair against Drill promoted units with more than 1 first strike chance? Are they immune to 2 first strikes? It isn't very clear how far their immunity goes, though it is clear a mounted unit's immunity would fair worse against a Drill IV unit which has the added 10% vs Mounted (especially against a Drill IV Janissary with its +35% vs Mounted).

a unit immune to first strike is immune to ALL fistr strike. So a fight between a drill4 samurai and a knight is a fight between a usual maceman and a knight.

i think drill means that a unit has a chance of discovering an oil resource. if a unti is on a tile and has drill 3 then there is a 1 in 3 chace he will find oil.
I prefer guerilla or woodsman promotions as oil resources don't show until late in the game and guerilla or woodsman have a better chance to find beaver and deer resources.
In so far as combat drill is not that good a choice because the numbers don't go up on the combat thing and since compters are based in numbers this is not optimal.

i think drill means that a unit has a chance of discovering an oil resource. if a unti is on a tile and has drill 3 then there is a 1 in 3 chace he will find oil.Please point me to a source of that information, because it is very, very new to me that a men drilled by a seargent to strike first is more likely to find oil than his strength promoted friend who has been lifting weight all day long.

one has to ask oneself "why is drill not in the combat calculations?" is there a secret code inbedded in the programming in regard to tiles and drill?
The combat star icon indicates that anything with a star should be connected, so playing Washington one should always use the Combat promotion. It indicates the strength of going for a space race victory or cultural victory if you get globe theater and hollywood ect.
I suggest that programmers unconsciously make visual connections as pattern.

i think drill means that a unit has a chance of discovering an oil resource.
I like that explanation a lot better than the others. Much easier to grasp!

Personally I thought the "drill" promotion is somehow related to dentistry.

Drill is part of the odds calculator in the latest patches.
That is good to know, I was not sure about this.

What it doesn't show is that drill units end up with more hitpoints on average if they manage to win.
The War Academy has the following article which is very comprehensive despite the innocent title Combat Explained (http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/combat_explained.php). Among other things, it points out that the benefit from First Strikes (regarding winning odds) is highest if the opposing units are close in strength to eachother.

If your odds to win are high already, additional First Strikes don't gain you as much, but you still keep the benefit of losing less hit points during the battle. It would be interesting to know how strong this effect is for some common scenarios, for example Riflemen vs. Longbow.

I stack Drill promotions when my chances to win are already high (usually when I got to Rifling before anybody else), so my attackers won't have to wait multiple rounds to heal up. Actually I don't really know how significant First Strikes are in that regard.

Yes, the best way to promote is a mixture- Medic and Drill would make health go up because of good choppers, whereas Combat and Drill is like a drunk oilman which make for good melee units.

The mechanics of drill have already been explained here. Your units get "first strikes", which basically amounts to rounds of combat where only your unit can do damage.

I'm not sure if it's been mentioned, but this is best used when your units are considerably stronger IMO. Combat provides a higher chance of winning than drill, while drill provides a higher chance of a winning unit emerging from the battle unscathed. For a really simple example you'd want combat infantry vs other infantry if you could only have 1 promo on a stock infantry, while if going against longbows or maces or something you'd probably want drill.

Combat provides a higher chance of winning than drill
According to the combat guide from the War Academy, this is NOT correct. If the units are close in strength, Drill can provide a higher increase in winning odds than Combat, in addition to less healing needed after the fight is over.

Now it also depends if you can give Drill II right away or have to choose between Drill I and Combat I. Since Drill I gives only a "chance" (50%?), Combat I is probably better there.

According to the combat guide from the War Academy, this is NOT correct. If the units are close in strength, Drill can provide a higher increase in winning odds than Combat, in addition to less healing needed after the fight is over.

Now it also depends if you can give Drill II right away or have to choose between Drill I and Combat I. Since Drill I gives only a "chance" (50%?), Combat I is probably better there.

That's true, close in strength drill will win. However even then it's misleading. I've lost enough drill I archers vs combat I barb archers, and realized attacking them that I had less than 50% odds :(.

I'm still not sold that combat is actually better than drill in practice though. I'd say a mix is probably best really. Drill units to clean up damaged SOD, combat units for stack protection. My biggest problem in wars is injured units that take an eternity to heal. Unfortunately, the units that usually take the most damage and slow me down are siege, and I'd be loathe to give siege anything but CR and bombardment (unless I plan on meeting an enemy SoD in the field, but this is rarely the case). When SoDs attack me I usually let them suicide into high culture defenses...making flanking mounted troops one of my favorite things to have handy on defense :p. You can flank siege to death without actually killing an enemy SoD, and if you do so it will invariable suicide its stack against even 100% defense (this is my best use of walls and castles!).

So, to clean up I should probably promote more attackers to drill when relying mostly on siege, since such a scenario will favor my other units heavily regardless and i'll want to keep them healthy. Well, this is for medieval times when trebs rule the offensive. Later on one could use upgraded CR rifles/spies or do the same thing with grenades/cannons (though my grenades are usually geared for combat promos because the biggest threat to them is mounted troops, where drill is useless).

So I guess I'd put combat on pikes, drill on things like xbows (although what matters to me most on xbows is the shock promo), CR siege/maces.

I've just found combat to give superior odds in most of the scenarios I'm fighting in (maybe it's the way I war that affects this), unless I have a tech lead like infantry vs rifles where drill completely owns.

If you are relying on healthy siege gear you will have to wait for them to heal up anyway, so having your assault force taking less damage due to Drill won't improve matters.

Currently I only pick Drill for units that start with First Strikes already or if I'm Protective so the guys can receive Drill III at least, right from the start.

Arguably the best use for heavy drill promotions is the Spy + Riflemen protective leader strike force. You won't bring a lot of siege and want to keep moving from city to city as quickly as possible. Drill III (or IV, even) will mean less healing needed so with a warlord medic in tow you will possibly never have to wait for healing before moving on.

I really have to simulate a few typical situations in this regard to see what's best. (I'm no longer willing to buy into any Drill hype without verification.)

My best experience with high Drill promotions was a recent game as Zara. His UU, the Ormo Warrior, is a Musket replacement that gets Drill II for free. I got them relatively early and built a mixed stack to invade Isabella. She suicided a few catapults against my stack, and they didn't hurt anybody at all. The Drill IV Ormo (2 for free, plus the XP from the barracks and Theocracy) that defended took her Cats out with the first-strikes alone, leaving not a single one of the units in the stack scratched.

If you are relying on healthy siege gear you will have to wait for them to heal up anyway, so having your assault force taking less damage due to Drill won't improve matters.

Currently I only pick Drill for units that start with First Strikes already or if I'm Protective so the guys can receive Drill III at least, right from the start.

Arguably the best use for heavy drill promotions is the Spy + Riflemen protective leader strike force. You won't bring a lot of siege and want to keep moving from city to city as quickly as possible. Drill III (or IV, even) will mean less healing needed so with a warlord medic in tow you will possibly never have to wait for healing before moving on.

I really have to simulate a few typical situations in this regard to see what's best. (I'm no longer willing to buy into any Drill hype without verification.)

Sadly I've found that drill rifles, even with spies, don't utterly trounce defending longbows or muskets because of their city defense bonuses and the fact that such defenders also have first strike chances which can partially negate drill.

My favorite promo for blasting through enemy lands with a gunpowder unit tech lead is actually march :lol:. Aggressive leaders have fairly easy access to it (GG cities can go C3 march, others can go medic 1 march), most others can't though unless you can get 2 GG's settled in super production cities and run theo/vassalage (not very practical compared to being able to make them anywhere with just a barracks and vassalage!). It's a little bit easier than that for charismatic I guess. It's like a parade! Through enemy lands! Or you can just wait for mech infantry or SEALS because those start with it.

Maybe one use for drill early would be promoting it heavily for cleanup troops, making less cleanup troops, and more siege. I believe this would be somewhat target-specific, as such an army wouldn't be able to invade/hold up to enemies that had significant forces to attack you en-route. Still, if you're trying to cut through ghandi or MM or something it might be more painless that way.

Edit: It's possible in the Red Cross city also, but again not particularly practical to go for just to get march troops. I wish drill opened up medic, that would make protective more useful :p.

According to the combat guide from the War Academy, this is NOT correct. If the units are close in strength, Drill can provide a higher increase in winning odds than Combat, in addition to less healing needed after the fight is over.

Now it also depends if you can give Drill II right away or have to choose between Drill I and Combat I. Since Drill I gives only a "chance" (50%?), Combat I is probably better there.

As TheMeInTeam touched on, the problem is that if your opponent has the same unit class as you do and he promotes them with combat, then it's no longer an even battle to start out with, and most of the time that's exactly what he'll do. It is even more uneven if he uses CG promotions.


I'm not sure having drill troops in your SOD are going to save you time during an assault from less healing, after all if you use your CR or otherwise str/relative str enhanced units to defeat their best troops and your drill troops to mop up, it's your crack troops that will need healing if they survive.
A mash unit with medic3 + march will solve all of these problems and you don't have to waste promotions on drill, at least that's my experience.

A mash unit with medic3 + march will solve all of these problems and you don't have to waste promotions on drill, at least that's my experience.
The M.A.S.H. unit does not need March. Save the XP and give it Morale instead.

Now I'd really like to know when to give Drill promotions to the troops, because we've just uncovered plenty of alternatives that seem to be better.

Obsolete apparently knows the secret but he has not shared it so far.

Thanks for your explanations. I understand it a lot better now. :goodjob:

A mash unit with medic3 + march will solve all of these problems and you don't have to waste promotions on drill, at least that's my experience.

March applies to the unit being healed, not the healer. Drill promotions make good secondary stack defenders since they can contribute to the offense and still have HP to perform admirably on defense. I agree that usually your primary assaulters are going to need lots of healing anyway so having a few units will less healing isn't going to make a huge difference unless you bring extra primary attackers such that you can leap-frog attack (i.e., you first set attacks city 1 and heals during the assault on city 2. Set 2 attacks city 2 and heals during the assault on city 3. Both groups are able to heal during bombardment.) If you can set that up then your drill cleanup crew can assault both cities since they should only require bombardment time to fully heal.

March applies to the unit being healed, not the healer. Drill promotions make good secondary stack defenders since they can contribute to the offense and still have HP to perform admirably on defense. I agree that usually your primary assaulters are going to need lots of healing anyway so having a few units will less healing isn't going to make a huge difference unless you bring extra primary attackers such that you can leap-frog attack (i.e., you first set attacks city 1 and heals during the assault on city 2. Set 2 attacks city 2 and heals during the assault on city 3. Both groups are able to heal during bombardment.) If you can set that up then your drill cleanup crew can assault both cities since they should only require bombardment time to fully heal.

March only helps heal the healer? My mistake then. In that case you don't need level 6 on your healer unless you want to build the WP.

March only helps heal the healer? My mistake then. In that case you don't need level 6 on your healer unless you want to build the WP.

Correct, although your wording is cumbersome. The situation we are considering is a super-medic, in which case that (super-medic) unit is always the "healer". The "healee, healed, healing" unit is the one that benefits from the march promotion.

So, more precisely, march only helps the unit being healed, whether the healer is that same unit or another unit with better healing capabilities.

Correct, although your wording is cumbersome. The situation we are considering is a super-medic, in which case that (super-medic) unit is always the "healer". The "healee, healed, healing" unit is the one that benefits from the march promotion.

So, more precisely, march only helps the unit being healed, whether the healer is that same unit or another unit with better healing capabilities.

This is a bit confusing to me probably because english is not my native language. :crazyeye:

My idea with march was that my healer in a SOD would be able to heal my assault troops a little while the whole stack moved but if I understand you correctly, that doesn't work.

This is a bit confusing to me probably because english is not my native language. :crazyeye:

My idea with march was that my healer in a SOD would be able to heal my assault troops a little while the whole stack moved but if I understand you correctly, that doesn't work.

The medic will heal any unit that did not attack/move (a few other actions apply, the war academy has a good article on the full details) on a given turn. This healing occurs regardless of whether or not the medic moved. Thus, you can bring a medic from across you empire and land him on a square and, when you press enter, he will heal all the eligible units on that square. With the march promotion all those actions that prevent a unit from healing no longer apply.

So, in order for units in the stack to heal between cities you need to give them march. Otherwise, the only healing you will get is when you stop to bombard the city defenses. This could be 0 or many turns depending on how many siege you brought to the party.

March only helps heal the healer? My mistake then. In that case you don't need level 6 on your healer unless you want to build the WP.
Since a "real" medic needs Medic III you will have to attach a Great General to it. This will give 20 XP to the unit; if the healer is a Chariot and comes out of a city with Barracks + Stable you will already end up with enough total XP for a level 6 unit.

After Combat I and three Medic promotions you still have one free promotion. I would recommend Morale since that increases the movement range of the healer by 1. You won't have more than one such unit, typically, so mobility goes a long way for the medic.

IMHO the drill promo line increases the gainedXPs per death risk ratio, since XP = f(combat odds) & my "feeling" for drilled units is empiric_chance_of_survival > combat_odds.
So I tend to leverage this when CHA/IMP or owner of GW.

Also Drill IV rules on privateers - "Sail Ho"!

The drill promotions basically have the potential to turn your units in to the original Han Solo--i.e., they shoot first. ;)





But.... Greedo shot first :lol: :mischief:

The best way to PICTURE it for an amateur is a scenario like this::

You are given a map, with a ten-thousand axemen. Your opponent, (who is a rookie but thinks he understands promotions well) is also given the same map, with ten-thousand axemen sprawled about.

Now here is the competition. You must kill as MANY axemen as possible, in a given amount of time. Who ever kills the most, wins. Both of you are given only 1 unit to do this, a Modern Tank.

And....

You may chose any TWO promotions.

Well... the rookie, because he knows how combat promos behave, takes Strength & Shock on his Armour unit because... it is common sense (or so he thinks).

YOU... should know better. So YOU take Drill 1 & Drill 2.

Now if you don't understand, how this will gain in more kills than the other guy, here is the big hint...

YOU DON'T NEED TO WASTE TIME HEALING AS MUCH

Yeah that's useful for when you're attacking axemen with tanks, a difficult assignment for those who know little about promotions. ;)

I would say drill is more of a "niche" promotion than strength.

The thing is, strength improves your damage, and ALSO your chance to hit. So even thought combat doesn't give you additional attack chances like drill, it effectively gives you more hits just like drill, since each of your attacks is more likely to hit. And that can result in you killing off the other unit faster.


So, when do you want drill? These scenarios could apply.

1. You have a very weak unit in comparison to them. This means, that you can get some shots in, before your unit gets annihilated. Or, if there unit has first strikes, your drill cancels out their much stronger first strikes.
2. If you have a much stronger unit, then you can potentially take out out the opposing unit before they get many hits in.
3. You want to get more exp because exp gain depends on the strength ration, so for first strikes you level up faster. This would mean that if you were at an advantage in a war, and were willing to lose more battles in order to gain some higher level units, you could use more first strikes. The later stage first strikes can be quite useful, reducing collateral damage, and drill 4 gives you 2 first strikes and +10% versus mounted, which is rather good.


when units are close to equal, 50-50 odds, drill is almost always less effective than combat promotions I believe, in regards to damage taken, and overall win chances.


there are more, I'll add any more I think of.

The thing is, strength improves your damage, and ALSO your chance to hit. So even thought combat doesn't give you additional attack chances like drill, it effectively gives you more hits just like drill, since each of your attacks is more likely to hit. And that can result in you killing off the other unit faster.

Not so often that. The problem with this analysis, as is frequently the case in CIV, is integer math.

An unpromoted Tank will win an individual round of combat against an Axeman 8484/10000. Drill promoted Tanks have the same odds, but some first strike chances to allay the damage you may take. Tanks with Combat I and Shock, on the other hand, win the individual round 8850/10000.

If we are going to be playing whack a mole (obsolete's scenario), then we are primarily interested in avoiding damage. With Shock, our odds of dominating the combat are just over 69%.

With Drill II (therefore 1 or 2 first strikes in each combat round), combat domination occurs more than 75.5%

But that's not the end of the story. Tank vs Axe is a long ways away from any jump points that would complicate the issue. How about Tanks (28) vs Muskets (9)?

An unpromoted Tank will dominate about 32.8%
With drill II, that goes up to 45.7%
With pinch, that goes up to 49%

The key difference here is that the combat + pinch promoted tank is doing 36 damage each turn, instead of 33. Therefore, it need only win 3 rounds of combat instead of 4.

Now, this isn't quite a fair representation of whack-a-mole, as the proposed measure was not "avoid being hit" but instead "minimize turns healing". It's a bit of a slog, but you can work out how often you'll take each amount of damage, and from this an expected number of healing turns per combat, but truth be told I have no interest in that problem at this point, so I'll yield the floor.

Drill makes sense if your Protective and can get to drill IV fairly easily which -if you have gold -you can convert a few archers to crossbowmen or wait til rifle.
Archers with drill are good barbarian killers but thats about it.
Maybe Babylonian Bowmen would be a good Drill promotion canditiate, but - in the ancient age- it is Melee units that get the job done -regulating Drill to what Levgre deemed a "niche" promotion, but in this case a niche promotion relative to the civ - ie, Babylon, China, Native Americans.

1. You have a very weak unit in comparison to them. This means, that you can get some shots in, before your unit gets annihilated. Or, if there unit has first strikes, your drill cancels out their much stronger first strikes.
That won't work, because while you get a few free rounds of combat, the odd of winning those rounds will still be low if you're very weak in comparison to them. So the First Strike rounds will show little to no effect, and your unit will still be dead in the end.

Obsolete gave the proper example of having a big lead in strength, and then you're more interested in how many of them you can wipe out before you need to retreat for healing. Now I don't know the numbers on this, and it's an experiment that I really have to do soon in a simulation, for some of the common scenarios (Rifles vs. Medieval etc.).

Among other things, it points out that the benefit from First Strikes (regarding winning odds) is highest if the opposing units are close in strength to eachother.

Actually this is misleading. Drill is ONLY beneficial for a unit that is >= its opponent. A unit with 3.29 modified strength and Drill will still lose against a unit with 3.3 even though they are "close". The reason is that the former unit deals 19 damage and the latter deals 20. This means that the weaker unit must make 6 successful hits in order to kill the other unit versus 5 for the stronger unit. Even if the weaker unit successfully makes its "free" hit, it will still have to make 5 more at less than even odds.

That's true, close in strength drill will win. However even then it's misleading. I've lost enough drill I archers vs combat I barb archers, and realized attacking them that I had less than 50% odds.
Precisely. A 3 strength attack against a 3.3 defense has about 47.6% chance of hitting on each round. But it only does 19 HP damage so it needs to hit 6 times versus the barb's 5 so you only have about 37% chance of winning.

However, if you plopped that same Drill archer on flat grassland where the barb is sure to attack it and let it fortify for 3 turns (15%) , the relative strengths become 3.45 vs 3.3 and now you have about 71% chance to win. Your chance of hitting has only gone up to 51.1% but you now do 20 damage vs. the barb's 19. So you need to hit 5 times one of which may be that free first strike.

Going back to the thousand Axeman vs Modern Armour competition, firstly, Drill would be totally wasted since Modern Armour already have 1 first strike by default, and secondly, coupled with the default Blitz, a Barrage II Modern Armour should surely do the most kills in a given amount of time. (30% collateral damage, +10% vs Melee).
The only time I ever consider using Drill promotions are when I know I can promote a few units through to Drill IV, pre-armour era (generally on muskets/rifleman) and especially during the Cavalry era. The Drill promotions are usually useless during the Horse-Knights-Cuirasseur era where they have no effect against these 1st strike immune mounted units, but Cavalry are not immune to first strikes.

Yes, MODERN ARMOUR does come with 1 FS. This is a FS GUARANTEED, which means, no chance, it's a given (unless the opponent has counters).

And this is exactly what DRILL II does, it gives a FIRST STRIKE GUARANTEED as well. But in addition gives a second FS CHANCE due to Drill I.

Regular tanks don't get this but Drill II on a regular tank does the same thing. In any case, you won't have to worry about healing while you watch your opponent with COMBAT promotions racking up more axe-men kills than you. HE is the one who will be making lots of stops here and there.

Yes, MODERN ARMOUR does come with 1 FS. This is a FS GUARANTEED, which means, no chance, it's a given (unless the opponent has counters).

And this is exactly what DRILL II does, it gives a FIRST STRIKE GUARANTEED as well. But in addition gives a second FS CHANCE due to Drill I.

Regular tanks don't get this but Drill II on a regular tank does the same thing. In any case, you won't have to worry about healing while you watch your opponent with COMBAT promotions racking up more axe-men kills than you. HE is the one who will be making lots of stops here and there.

March is the promotion you want in that scenario. Of course getting there is the problem with barbs capping exp at 10

Are we talking Axeman scattered all over the map or in a huge stack? If in a stack or in large stacks, the Barrage promtions should not be ingnored as mentioned above. if it~s one axeman, per tile, then the Drills make even more sense.

That won't work, because while you get a few free rounds of combat, the odd of winning those rounds will still be low if you're very weak in comparison to them. So the First Strike rounds will show little to no effect, and your unit will still be dead in the end.


I think your reasoning is flawed. Say if after 3 hits your unit dies, because the other unit has very high strength.

So if you attack a unit while having 2 strength promotions, your strength promotions will only apply to say 2-4 attacks.

Now, would you rather have the +20% bonus to 2 attacks, or have a chance of having a WHOLE additional 2 attacks (Drill 1 +2)?

Drill is less effective in longer, more equal combats, because strength applies to the 5-6 combat rounds that could occur. When there are possibly only 2-3 non-FS combat rounds, the drill becomes much more powerful. It can effectively double your average damage output, and adding 20% strength does not do that.

Not so often that. The problem with this analysis, as is frequently the case in CIV, is integer math.

An unpromoted Tank will win an individual round of combat against an Axeman 8484/10000. Drill promoted Tanks have the same odds, but some first strike chances to allay the damage you may take. Tanks with Combat I and Shock, on the other hand, win the individual round 8850/10000.
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Sure, the"added percentage to hit" from more strength definitely wouldn't be worth it for the tanks. Partly, because the tanks odds to hit are already probably 99%+, and because there are few combats before the axeman dies.


The added percentage to hit partially overrides the first strikes additional hit opportunities in longer, more equal combats. Not in battles where there are few rounds and a unit already is almost guaranteed to hit.

Sure, the"added percentage to hit" from more strength definitely wouldn't be worth it for the tanks. Partly, because the tanks odds to hit are already probably 99%+

Ummm.... 8485/10000 << 99%+

8485 when attacking, 8484 is the value when defending. I got sloppy.

For modern armor attacking axes, my calculations give 8889/10000.

Domination percentages:
No promotions: 78%
CI + Shock: 83%
Drill II: 91%

If we try modern armor vs cavalry
No promotions: 35%
Drill II: 51%
Combat II: 54%


Horses for Courses.

For modern armor attacking axes, my calculations give 8889/10000.

Domination percentages:
No promotions: 78%
CI + Shock: 83%
Drill II: 91%



Can you please explain what "domination percentage" is?

Can you please explain what "domination percentage" is?

"Flawless Victory" percentage might be less confusing; I'm identifying the probability that the attacking unit is undamaged after the combat.

As noted earlier, obsolete's challenge really calls for evaluating the average number of turns of healing required after the combat. I'm using the other as an approximation, because I'm still not interested in modeling the healing part.

Are we talking Axeman scattered all over the map or in a huge stack? If in a stack or in large stacks, the Barrage promtions should not be ingnored as mentioned above. if it~s one axeman, per tile, then the Drills make even more sense.

No No No... If we allowed huge stacks of axe-men like that, then the barrage tank will simply be wiped out by the stack's counter-attack. (Unless we add further limits to how much the axe-men can STACK, and bring re-inforcement stacks).


So you wouldn't really have an experiment at all here.

March is the promotion you want in that scenario. Of course getting there is the problem with barbs capping exp at 10

Tanks and M-Armour do not get March promotions, nor do they get any medic promos at all.

BTW, we have been far to lenient on the STRENGTH promo in this situation, because modern armour don't even allow the Shock promo.

But if you go all the way up the barrage promotion line you get a small bonus vs Meele. haha!

I just ran a MA vs an Immortal (2-3) first strikes, (neither of them promoted.)

That immortal took my tank of power 40 and turned it into 28 before it died.

BTW, we have been far to lenient on the STRENGTH promo in this situation, because modern armour don't even allow the Shock promo.

I wouldn't get too wrapped up in that, given the scenario is already bloody unlikely - even the barbarians will have managed to tech past axes by the time you get MA out the doors, and the upkeep of 10K units is probably beyond any civ trapped at that technology level.

Of course, it shouldn't take too long to get through the mumble cannon fodder that it takes to completely promote along the best and second best line.

Obsolete a Immortal has no first strikes...? Are you thinking Samurai?

I wouldn't get too wrapped up in that, given the scenario is already bloody unlikely - even the barbarians will have managed to tech past axes by the time you get MA out the doors, and the upkeep of 10K units is probably beyond any civ trapped at that technology level.
Are you saying that this is actually a MOOT discussion!? No way!

Obsolete a Immortal has no first strikes...? Are you thinking Samurai?

Yes, I keep calling them Immortals.

Earlier I spent a couple hours with world builder to hammer this down:

To drill or not to drill has more to do with what you expect your opponent to have than anything. For 1-battle survivability, a combat promotion gives you better odds if the adjusted strength of your unit is less than 1.65X your foe. Given equal combat odds, the drill promoted units will come out much healthier and more likely to be able to kill more units before they go down. There’s also the issue of lowering collateral damage received. Thus, drilling is a sort of anti-zerg promotion.

However, if you’re looking at equal adjusted strength, a 10% increase from a combat promotion is actually better than 2 first strikes. But at even 1.1X strength, 2 first strikes become better than an additional 10%. Also “first strike chances” seem about half as good as first strikes. What's even worse is how units can often be immune to first strikes, including all flanking II units.

Drilling is rarely useful, but it’s useful to understand as some units start with first strikes, and machine gunners have no other options.

The tank vs. axemen example… If you have that kind of tech lead, you should probably go up in difficulty. If you’re already on deity, then this game's too easy for you, lol.

Since a "real" medic needs Medic III you will have to attach a Great General to it. This will give 20 XP to the unit; if the healer is a Chariot and comes out of a city with Barracks + Stable you will already end up with enough total XP for a level 6 unit.

After Combat I and three Medic promotions you still have one free promotion. I would recommend Morale since that increases the movement range of the healer by 1. You won't have more than one such unit, typically, so mobility goes a long way for the medic.

I normally use woodsman III units as healers, or occassionally the smaller stack will use a medic III while the larger stack uses the woodsman (in large stack, some heal while others attack). I prefer to settle my great generals, especially with imperial leaders as I can produce CRIII attackers without using theocracy or vassalage.