Just wanted to give my impressions (and a few suggestions) on Armageddon and it's ilk. I play solo against computers of rising difficulty (currently polishing up a couple prince games), so I'm sure I'm not gaining the full drama that might ensue.

Managed to stave off the Blight by messing with my cities (a good distraction whilst whiping out the dwarves). Enjoyed the random fires all over the place from the Sheaim world spell. Also randomly lost a city to it as a barb was able to whup on a fire-weakened defender. Then came the various riders. Except for one, who got bogged down in Elf territory, all were killed by Valin Phanuel before they could cause too much havoc.

Somewhere in there, a good number of portals with Sects of Flies popped up. Fortunately, I'd been no slouch in keeping my cities defended and was able to roust most of the ones in my territory on my first turn.

Then came the Avatar of Wrath. I'd read nightmare tales before of his former, army summoning self. As it was, the large number of troops all over the place that were ready to revolt had me on my toes for a while. The Nexus made getting them to the front lines where I could get rid of their enragedness. This came after using the Bannor world spell, meaning lots and lots of Demagogs that needed to be put into the meat grinder pronto. The Avatar himself ended up near one of my outlying bases. Used the Nexus to get a good number of champions over there, but he ended up dead after only two battles... Sigh, guess they don't make Avatars like they used to.

Finally, after razing a few more Sheaim cities, Armageddon came. Read the text associated with it, then began to take stock of my losses. One hero down (Not Valin, thank goodness), armies cut in half or missing, and research strangely low. Oh, my cities shrunk. Nice effect there. Unfortunately, there wasn't any lingering effect to show the horror that had occurred in the world. Cities had to regrow, troops had to be rebuilt, but the word remained its happy green and the Bannor armies marched on. I guess I was expecting something a little more...more? Well, to that end, here are a few suggestions which may or may not be good ideas.

Blight -
Works nicely and is a great opener for the world going wrong. I understand that it can happen multiple times as well. Great, don't change a thing.

Horsemen -
Maybe I was later in the game than they can normally show up. If I'd played as Sheaim and done the whole Ragnarok thing, that certainly would have sped things up. Might be nifty if they could die more than once, respawning in some distant corner of the world to cause trouble for someone else. They just seemed to disappear a tad quickly.

Demon Portals -
Good times. Might be good to increase the spawn rate of the demons or at least having more than one appear on the portal at initial summoning. Would have also added some spice if different kinds of demonic units were summoned. A few Balors here, and Imp and a Sect of Flies over here. Some portals would be crushed easily, others would cause major trouble. If the portals were to also create Hell terrain, that would also be a plus. Hyboem is almost never summoned in the games I play, meaning any chance to see the world decay is a plus.

Avatar of Wrath -
Okay, Avatar of Wrath vs some buffed Champions does not go so well. Didn't help that fool attack from across a river. Left him weak and vulnerable. To help out the poor guy, he could be given an ability like the dragon's roar. Any unit within range that has the enraged promotion becomes his. Sounds simple enough in my head, but I don't know how the code works.

Armageddon -
First off, would be great if it caused some forests to catch on fire like the Sheaim's World Break does. Maybe it does, but I just didn't notice... One thing that I think would be great would be if it caused the global reverse of the Genesis Ritual. No destruction of resources or anything like that, just a slightly singed world that give a better visualization of the destruction that has apparently occured. Some random hell terrain popping up here and there wouldn't be too bad either. Heck, let's just go crazy and also have it create another wave of demon portals. Now you've got weakened players with weakend (but rebuildable) cities attempting to stave off another demonic invasion.
To round things out, any Sheaim (or perhaps Ashen Veil) territory could receive less damage and weaker effects. Would give them a greater desire to cause all that doom and destruction as they could wind up ahead of the game.

Yeah...that's just my 2 cents on Armageddon and its Ilk. Don't know where the team is as far as looking at changing any of these things, but I figured no one would mind some random feedback. Thanks for the awesome game. Currently doing a little LAN with my bro as the Vampires and Orcs out for world domination. Good times.

yea the 4 horsemen do need a bit of a boost, or at least not hole up inside the first city they conqer.

I think all barbarian heroes need to start with March + Medic I or II. That would help them from getting worn down by units, since the barbarians seem unable to heal. Maybe even go so far as to give the barbarian leader a trait that gives all the barbarian units March?

I miss the old Avatar of Wrath as well, but I do like the idea that a player could be forced to decide whether or not to go to war with their best friend in order to save that Enraged hero unit from going barb.

To round things out, any Sheaim (or perhaps Ashen Veil) territory could receive less damage and weaker effects. Would give them a greater desire to cause all that doom and destruction as they could wind up ahead of the game.
That is exactly what should be done to given Ashen Veil cities an incentive to end the wold. So simple yet brilliant I don't know how I didn't think of it myself.

giving the avatar of wrath command promotions would help him gain more armies and its hard to wear down a unit that is constantly gaining reinforcements

I think all evil (especially ashen veils) civ's cities should get the Infernal's Demonic citizens once Armageddon hits 100. Including hyborems captured regualar cities. That way the remaining human/mortal civs have to fight to the bitter end or die trying. Their world may be in Agare's hell but that dont mean Erabus cant be the shining light on the hill even in Hell..., at least untill the One returns and saves them. That way Armageddon doesnt have to be a victory condition, but it sure make it easier for the evil civs and harder for the goody too shoes.

If you play at higher difficulties, monarch+ preferably, you'll find that the horsemen can come rather rapidly on occasion. At diety, I've had armageddon hit before turn 200 more than once. Be very very careful when suggesting boosts to the strength of the horsemen.

That must be an exception. I have played quite a couple of games on Immortal and i never saw them that early.
As someone said, they MUST get the March Promotion, because it is just annoying seeing them in a conquered City for the rest of the game.

Avatar of Wrath -
Okay, Avatar of Wrath vs some buffed Champions does not go so well. Didn't help that fool attack from across a river. Left him weak and vulnerable. To help out the poor guy, he could be given an ability like the dragon's roar. Any unit within range that has the enraged promotion becomes his. Sounds simple enough in my head, but I don't know how the code works.



Completely agree....

I was rather unimpressed by the apocalypse. Converting the whole world to hell terrain, or setting all the land on fire, or razing 50% of improvements, or changing the terrain as new deserts appear, volcanoes erupt and coastal areas fall into the deep would make the apocalypse feel more apocalyptic.

Blight used to be incredibly evil and could ruin you if you weren't prepared for it. Resources destroyed, deserts created, improvements destroyed, etc. That was when the counter was to be feared, unfortunately it got toned down.

It seems the main reason why the horsemen & the avatar are such wimps is because they are barbarian: everyone except humans playing at high levels get overwhelming bonuses against barbarians (normal civ feature). Assigning them to a civ (infernals ?) should do the trick.

I was rather unimpressed by the apocalypse. Converting the whole world to hell terrain, or setting all the land on fire, or razing 50% of improvements, or changing the terrain as new deserts appear, volcanoes erupt and coastal areas fall into the deep would make the apocalypse feel more apocalyptic.

There is a volcano event bieng implemented in .32, whether it will be like the vanilla civ volcano event or a more powerful event, we will just have to wait and see.

It shouldn't be too hard to implement volcanoes in a way that they would appear more depending on the AC.

Blight used to be incredibly evil and could ruin you if you weren't prepared for it. Resources destroyed, deserts created, improvements destroyed, etc. That was when the counter was to be feared, unfortunately it got toned down.

The main problem with the old blight was that it was so powerful at such a low armageddon counter, and was pretty much the worst armageddon event short of the Avatar of Wrath. Also, it could be (mostly) recovered from by microing a bunch of workers and spring/vitalize casters, with the net result of annoying human players and wreaking havoc on the AI. I think it's a good thing it got toned down, although I wouldn't mind the original blight's effects occuring at some higher AC. Perhaps before or during the Horsemen.

Well, one of the simplest things to make Armageddon feel like it would be to bring back the old Blight but put it with what already happens during armegeddon, and to buff it up, make all improvements and resources suffer from this. Rebuilding is possible of course, but the damage would be immense, and it would really give players an incentive to keep Armageddon away.

Kudos to the OP for the excellent writeup, it is definitly appreciated.

I fought a long time for blight and eventually pulled it back to where it is now. In the end I dont have a problem with its power, I have a problem with it being the 1st arm effect and being so powerful. They should start lower and get progressily worse, but start with the most dramtic effect and get easier.

So I dont tihnk the old blight will ever come back. Instead I'd like to work on improveing the later Arm events. For example notice that Ars is getting a new ability in 0.32.

Nice post, Fafnir!

There have been other discussions about armageddon and whether/how to change the horsemen and the Avatar. The new ability for Ars Moriendi that Kael mentions sounds interesting, as does the flying ability all four horsemen are going to get in version 0.32. Other people have made suggestions to strengthen the horsemen with additional promotions: I think Magister suggested giving them Blitz and Water Walking, and some others have proposed March. Allowing them to summon skeletons (Death I, right?) might be thematically appropriate.

As for Wrath, I've mentioned in other posts in other threads that the old Wrath event was a lot scarier. Fafnir, if you haven't played earlier versions, what happened was that a large percentage of the world's military units became barbarian and teleported to the Avatar's location, so he started out with a massive army and ran wild. The problem was that it was unbalanced, since it disproportionately affected the civs closest to where the Avatar appeared.

Unfortunately, the current Wrath event is mostly an annoyance: every few turns one or two of your units goes barbarian, so you kill it. I think what might work would be to partially bring back the old Wrath event: have a large percentage (was it 50%? 60%?) of the world's units become barbarian converts to the Avatar's cause, but instead of having them teleport to the Avatar's location, have them remain where they are. This would make Wrath a worldwide chaotic event, really spread the mayhem around.

Anyway, glad to see that people are still thinking about what can be done. And regardless, I'm still enjoying this mod a lot.

Kudos to the OP for the excellent writeup, it is definitly appreciated.

I fought a long time for blight and eventually pulled it back to where it is now. In the end I dont have a problem with its power, I have a problem with it being the 1st arm effect and being so powerful. They should start lower and get progressily worse, but start with the most dramtic effect and get easier.

So I dont tihnk the old blight will ever come back. Instead I'd like to work on improveing the later Arm events. For example notice that Ars is getting a new ability in 0.32.

Looking at Ars new ablity
48. Added the Call of the Grave spell (Ars only, does 40% death damage the enemies, heals all undead, raises 3 wraiths from graveyards, range 2).
I would assume that he needs to be on a graveyard to cast the spell, yet with how late he comes into the game, just how many graveyards would be left fro him to actually use his new spell?

Hmm...I was just thinking that it might be cooler if instead of having a spell that raises wraith from graveyards he created graveyards every time he won a battle (unless some permanent improvement or city was on the tile).

Looking at Ars new ablity

I would assume that he needs to be on a graveyard to cast the spell, yet with how late he comes into the game, just how many graveyards would be left fro him to actually use his new spell?

Yeah the graveyard part of that power won't trigger often, but it adds a nice flavor so I added it.

Yeah the graveyard part of that power won't trigger often, but it adds a nice flavor so I added it.

Could a feature be added where if he defeated a living unit in a battle a graveyard would be placed in the defeated units hex?

Could a feature be added where if he defeated a living unit in a battle a graveyard would be placed in the defeated units hex?

Sure, but I couldnt imagine this powerful harbinger of the apocalypse going around carving memorials and building masoleums after battles. Especially since he raises those he kills as wraiths.

Sure, but I couldnt imagine this powerful harbinger of the apocalypse going around carving memorials and building masoleums after battles. Especially since he raises those he kills as wraiths.
Maybe just add a new improvement specifically for him, say 'field of death' or something?

Maybe just add a new improvement specifically for him, say 'field of death' or something?

Thats would do what?

Hmm...that reminded me of the Death III spell I added in the first release of my modmod (although it was bugged at the time). It created the Accursed Ground feature (based of the Abashi 'pedia entry), which caused living units that die there to be automatically raised as Barbarian skeletons, with strength based on the units base strength. I think the bug came in where I made these start with most of the dead unit's promotions, but I had a type in the list of those it couldn't give (things like Blessed, channeling 1-3, life1-3, law1-3, etc)

(This was mostly to be used in conjunction with the other Death III spell that let you take control of nearby undead units, sort of like Mesmerize does for animals)


It could be pretty cool to allow a Horseman of the Apocalypse spread this. Since it was the Sheaim using it in the pedia though, it might be good if it weren't only available to the horseman. What if this feature sometimes occurred naturally on hell terrain?


I think I might agree with xienwolf that it would be cooler if another horseman (I'm thinking Yersinia) created Graveyards and Ars later came in to raise the dead buried there.

Actually if you made the Field of Death be a Permanent Improvement, which overwrites any non-permanent Improvement on the tile, and removes any features, then it would have a long-lasting effect on the world. Could be quite cool.


I would say if the first Horseman two Horsemen spread Fields of Death, the second two could use a spell like what Kael gave Ars to spawn units from the fields, and then when Wrath spawned you ALSO change it so that all of the Fields of Death begin spawning Pit Beasts (like a lair basically).


Something like that means that you REALLY want to hunt down and kill the first 2 Horsemen as soon as possible, even if they did spawn on another continent and you are "safe." Of course, I suppose you are still fairly safe in that case, so maybe make it so that for each Field of Death in the world there is a 1% chance to spawn another Field of Death on any non-City tile where a unit dies in combat.

Maybe make it so that there is a chance upon the victory of any of the Horsemen and the Avatar of defiling the land, removing improvements, reducing its resource output, and causing it to give barbarian units an attack/defense bonus.

I was just suggesting it as a more flavor-appropriate graveyard for the horsemen to spread, sort of like just a waste of dead bodies and such, but xienwolf's idea sounds much better. Besides, 'field of death' was just a placeholder name because I couldn't think of anything better to call it.

I really like xienwolf's idea, as it makes Armageddon much more world-altering. Having the first Horsemen leave a permanent trail of death and destruction where they pass, and having the later ones raise vengeful spirits from them is quite fitting, I think.

Now all we'd need to do is make sure the horsemen don't conquer one town and stay there. Not much of a trail of death if they aren't tramping around the world. That's more of an AI issue though. Without knowing how any of this works, I might think the simplest solution to be for any city captured by them to simply be destroyed, spawning appropriate units of death and destruction in the process. Of course, losing a late game city in that fashion might be too harsh for some to stomach.
On the side note of horsemen capturing cities, it might be thematically appropriate if cities some captured became cities of the dead. City goes fallow, spawns various undead units (Skelatons, wraiths, maybe even the occasional Litch), and perhaps spreads hell terrain. I remember there being one spell called sanctify or something that, when cast on a destroyed city, would remove it and lower the Armageddon counter. That spell could be given a dual use by allowing it to return a city of the dead into a normal one, albeit at only population 1. This at least gives the player a chance of recovering his lost cities in some fashion as well as giving the undead a late game chance for fun and games.

I still think giving them March and Blitz would make them much more of a threat, and probably less likely to guard cities.

i still think they should just raze cities, then they wouldnt stick around, plus it would add more fog for other barbs to spawn in.

if blight came later than normal, you could make a lot of graveyards with that event and that would make sense (civs would bury their dead themselves).. also, for that spell of Ars, im hoping it makes the wraiths in any graveyard within 2 tiles of where he casts it, not only in the tile hes on.. cause thats a near impossibility heh

Kudos to the OP for the excellent writeup, it is definitly appreciated.

I fought a long time for blight and eventually pulled it back to where it is now. In the end I dont have a problem with its power, I have a problem with it being the 1st arm effect and being so powerful. They should start lower and get progressily worse, but start with the most dramtic effect and get easier.

So I dont tihnk the old blight will ever come back. Instead I'd like to work on improveing the later Arm events. For example notice that Ars is getting a new ability in 0.32.

Wow, I'm in so much agreement here it hurts. I've been meaning to discuss the "nothing...nothing...nothing... BLIGHTTTTT!!!" issue of Armageddon for a good while.

I'd like to see a progression more like:

% wise
1-10: Nothing
10+:Minor events allowable in RandomEvents that have bonus' that cause the AC to go up if chosen.
20: Each civ gets a(1) Harbinger unit (Melee, Str 6) with the Stigmata promotion in their capital, and 5 XP.
20+:Major Events based on AC that have AC modifying effects can now trigger.
30: Harbinger's gain the "Burn it to the Ground!" Spell. Cast in a city, it generates Sci and Money (Dependant on city size) but destroys the city. Only cast able in a city in revolt (Such as one you just captured) Leaves a city ruins improvement behind (Which Raises the AC of course).
40: Blight
etc

In general, I'd like to see more reasons for a civ to WANT there to be a high AC, at least in some cases. The little Harbinger's (Who could also be Disciples, now I think on it) make a good deal of sense for this.

I still really think that AV should have a repeatable ritual that gives you a temporary peace with the barbarian state.

I'd like to see a progression more like:

% wise
1-10: Nothing
10+:Minor events allowable in RandomEvents that have bonus' that cause the AC to go up if chosen.
20: Each civ gets a(1) Harbinger unit (Melee, Str 6) with the Stigmata promotion in their capital, and 5 XP.
20+:Major Events based on AC that have AC modifying effects can now trigger.
30: Harbinger's gain the "Burn it to the Ground!" Spell. Cast in a city, it generates Sci and Money (Dependant on city size) but destroys the city. Only cast able in a city in revolt (Such as one you just captured) Leaves a city ruins improvement behind (Which Raises the AC of course).
40: Blight
etc

In general, I'd like to see more reasons for a civ to WANT there to be a high AC, at least in some cases. The little Harbinger's (Who could also be Disciples, now I think on it) make a good deal of sense for this.That's a good idea. Also, the traditional view of evil in European literature has generally been one of initial seduction, trading the long-term for immediate short-term benefits. Only once it is too late for the target to back out does evil show its true face. Your proposed changes would encourage players to "join the dark side" since one would get a tangible benefit now, thinking they might be able to dodge later effects of a higher AC counter ("Oh, I'll make some Adepts with Spring and Sanctify").

I was rather unimpressed by the apocalypse. Converting the whole world to hell terrain, or setting all the land on fire, or razing 50% of improvements, or changing the terrain as new deserts appear, volcanoes erupt and coastal areas fall into the deep would make the apocalypse feel more apocalyptic.

I really like the idea of coastal areas being converted into sea! Would mean that coastal areas would need a boost to keep people still wanting to build on them though...