SSE/EE For Deity Masters

I'm still surprised at the lack of enthusiasm in regards to the EE. In any case, I decided to give the SSE/EE another go, but stepping it up to deity. I have to confess, that I can't win more than half my games on this level, and perhaps may never be able to. But there are things I still have to learn, those pesky things that simply are NOT documented well, or not at all (and often documented WRONG!). I could have even made this game easier had I understood some things a bit better but nevertheless, we managed alright.

Actually, the first time I played this map, I was VERY close to the space race, but just lost in second place. I can't say I was happy, things turned out bad for me on the map. I ended up on a continent that didn't even have ANY aluminum on it! That actually was one of the game-breakers for me. As well, my continent was smaller than the other one, which obviously can have many reprecussions, even if you conquer your own. And of course, it turned out that I was alone on mine with Justinian, which meant not only could I NOT trade techs second hand after stealing any, but Justinian simply was not going to trade techs to me until I met up with others from the other side of the world (breaking the monopoly). And then there was--

Oh never mind. The point is, instead of just moving on to a better generated map, I wanted to shadow that game, as I still believe there were some good things to be done, as long as one ADAPTS. In the end, it worked out well despite the limitations.

In the meantime, I have included a sneak-peak shot here, for what is to come later.


http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof16/preview.JPG


P.S. Actually, I'm not sure I'd consider myself as a Deity Master as I still do a lot of boo-boos in them, but I guess if you can make blunders and still recover, then you can't be too far off....

Wow, really can't wait for this one.

Looking forward to it, I liked your other EE game.
So this is a second try on this map? I can never get into those myself, I always get hung up on the mistakes I made the first time and end up making new (worse) ones trying to correct them.

That's a huge stack of spies. Should be an interesting read.

SSE/EE for Deity Masters! (SSE/EE)



Leader:: Ghandi (Decent choice)
Speed:: Normal (Hard)
Difficulty:: Deity (Hardest)
Map:: Continents (Very hard)


Notes: No turning off of barbarians or other cheap-exploit tactics as seen in other games. In essence, this is as hard as it gets. But if you can win here, you know you can win just about anywhere...

Disclaimer:
This strategy emphasizes heavily on the fundamentals of SE. If you haven’t elevated your game to that level yet, then good luck to you.


http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof16/init.JPG

Some Past Walkthroughs indexed here::

Beyond the Sword

Something Different (SSE/EE Immortal) (Ghandi) (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=274013)
Food Economy Test (HC) (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=269572)
Without the Mids (Ghandi) (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=257514)
SSE/WE with a Pack of Wolves (Ramesses) (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=256896)
The Great Lighthouse (Ramesses) (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=255896)
Competing vs Darius I (Ramesses) (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=255352)
The Insane Walkthrough (Ramesses) (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=253779)
The Insane Walkthrough (Ghandi) (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=253310)
The Insane Walkthrough (HC) (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=243033)


WarLords

The Insane Walkthrough (Ramesses) (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=233901&highlight=insane+walkthrough)
The Unreal Walkthrough (Ramesses) (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=231469)
The Unreal Walkthrough (Part II Ghandi) (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=234441&highlight=unreal)
The Impossible Walkthrough (Ramesses) (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=231222)
The Impossible Walkthrough (Part II Ghandi) (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232798)

The Ancient Era!

I'm not to sure what to say of this spot. Seems I have a gold-hill, but I'm never a fanatic over those, especially since this one has 0 food, it will be like running a specialist, but not getting the GP's.

I also am not a fan of the oasis. It is a tile that can NOT be improved. Nor can I just move my settler onto it and plant a city down that way. Grrrr. But for now, there is a corn and once CS comes in, it will get another bread piece added to it.

First things first, I plan to make a worker, then chop-make a second worker, then use both to double-chip TGW for our EE system.

http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof16/4000bc.JPG

3560 BC
Justinian runs into us. Hmm... one of those religious fanatics, isn't he? Also, seems he founded Bud.
-ni

2680 BC
Inside shot of our capital. TGW ready for completion. And about time, because even though I double-chopped, barbs on deity are ready to burst through the culture gates about now.

As you can see, I still am at pop-1 only (due to the gold) but I'm doing this for now to speed up my teching, I believe deity Ai's start with at least 4 bonus techs, so I really need to try to close the gap FAST!

http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof16/2680bc.JPG

2240 BC
City #2 is ready for founding. I will try and back-fill the little gap between these two cities later (if I can stop Justinian from getting there first).

Note: In the edge of the left side, you can JUST see the culture border from him. I'm not sure if that is game-design or a bug that way, but I always keep a look out for them.

http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof16/2240bc.JPG

1680
Our first great person pops. And what do you think that may be?
Hmmm!

Time to lightbulb him for fishing-tech.

Ooops, seems we can't lightbulb great spys.... alright, lets absorb him then.

* Ohh, and in other news, I am ready to found city #3. As soon as I can get these two smaller cities to pop 1 border, I will effectively be able to shut out Justin from grabbing anything near me, and I can slow down to expand at my own pace. BTW, TGW sure helps in not having to spend TOO much protection from deity barbs. These random "horde uprising" events are infamouse and deadly here. Luckily, Justin now has to put up with all of them.

Note: I have a chariot next to that settler, due to horses in my fat cross. I like horses in rapid expansion games, because they are strong enough for barbs, and can keep up with settlers, while able to also scout ahead while waiting for those settlers.

http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof16/1680bc.JPG

1200 BC
Finally, Buddhism spreads to us. Obviously we convert IMMEDIATELY.
-ni

800 BC
At this point, I must have finished researching Aesthetics, because suddenly I advance into the Classical Era!

And look, Justin is 1 turn away from alphabet. Unfortunately we won't be able to trade much, as from his perspective, he has a tech monopoly on everything because I don't know anyone else yet. Grrr!

http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof16/800bc.JPG

EoL

Should be an interesting game, I'm especially interested in how you cope with an 'isolated' start.

Well, virtually isolated, as you've said, Justinian WON'T trade a 'Monopoly tech'.

But then again, you can allway's steal, but who do you blame for that??? :eek:

I'm still surprised at the lack of enthusiasm in regards to the EE.
Well, most players, even on the Strategy & Tips board, aren't playing above Monarch. This decreases the utility of The Internet, tech trading, and espionage because they all rely on AI success. Also, there are no leaders with traits or uniques that affect :espionage: so it is never sensible to try and leverage espionage.

Financial and philosophical both affect espionage through more great spies and more commerce that can be turned into EP through the slider. They have the same effects on espionage as they would on science.




Anyway, since it's an EE game, being isolated with 1 other civ isn't that bad, even if he won't trade you can still steal from him. Though since he's a zealot, it's pretty easy to get to friendly with him if you're the same religion. And friendly civs will trade monopoly techs.

^^AFAIK only mansa trades monopoly techs ( and if he is in a good mood ). Friendly civs overlook WFYABTA......

This is a hassh start for a EE.... justinian is not as good as a techer and the impossibility of brokering should had gave obsolete some headaches ;)

^^AFAIK only mansa trades monopoly techs ( and if he is in a good mood ). Friendly civs overlook WFYABTA......


All civs will trade all techs if they're friendly (unless they're using it for wonders). It doesn't just affect WFYABTA.

Also, there are no leaders with traits or uniques that affect :espionage: so it is never sensible to try and leverage espionage.

Well, there's the Rathaus and some other buildings... but I get your point for sure. No UUs generating spy points above normal.

The Classical Era!

600 BC
Geeze, I knew it. The ONLY thing Justin is willing to trade, is silly fishing. And he wants my expensive Aesthetics for it! What a rip-off.

No Way Ho-Say!

* And, we are just about done completing the S.Paya. Now you may think that is a bit odd, especially since it is not in my capital. Well I have my reasons. This is my main out-post, and AI culture on deity is a tremendous force to contend with. So I am doing everything I can, to at least keep enough culture so I can hold onto that second gold hill right next to the border. The S. Paya gives at least 8 culture per turn, so it really is a big culture producer for its time. And after so many years, that number will double. Furthermore, I have chop-rushed other culture buildings, from obelisks to libraries. I want to keep this stronghold area strong. And the Gold discount for the Paya was just what the doctor ordered.

The only thing that sucks about this of course, is that I will now get great-prophet pollution which dips into my spy econ a bit, but some sacrifices should be made.

Note: Researching drama, 5 turns left. It may seem strange going after this, but I also want to get theaters up, because like I said, deity culture pressure is rediculously tuff to combat.
Also, I'm still doing active research. My immortal EE game went beelining almost to alphabet and then I put everything into spy points, but I don't believe that system works too well on deity. I want to run active research for a while longer, and just stockpile the EE points for now.

Oh, and second note: We just switched to slavery, and will whip the Paya now. Yes, yes, I know it's inefficient, and that we will have it in 2 turns anyhow, but I don't want to even take a 1 turn risk.

http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof16/600bc.JPG

300 BC
Traded resources to Justin for money and wine. It helps also with relations. BTW, we stalled giving him GOLD until now, because we didn't want to risk him using it to build the Paya should he get the techs to unlock it..
-ni

175 BC
We are 1 turn away from CoL, and we pop another Great Spy. Time to turn him into a super-specialist as well.
-ni

150 BC
Traded Aesthetics finally to Justinian. The sad part, is that even at this stage, he will ONLY trade fishing to us. ARG!!! We really got trade-brokering screwed with techs on this map, but what choice do we have at the moment? I could hold onto it a bit longer, but then what? At least if I give it now, I can get SOMETHING out of the deal, and maybe help Justin grow a bit up the tech tree so he can get a lead that I can mooch off from later.

At least I know he can't rob the Paya from me anymore. I just hope he doesn't use it to build the Parthenon too close to me.

-ni

25 BC
City #4 is ready to be constructed. I am grabbing this spot up north, and will probably go for 8 cities total instead of my normal six. I want to unlock the FB and put it into my out-post city to combat Justinian's culture/politics. Also, I often find I need 7 cities anyway for those random builder events.

http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof16/25bc.JPG

50 AD
The Parthenon was build in a far away land. Hopefully it wasn't in a Justinian city near me. That wonder also creates a lot of culture.

I don't mind if he built it elsewhere though, because more GP's for HIM is good for me, as I will hitch-hike off from him.

-ni


100

Whoops! Slave revolt in my capital. Why? Because I am an IDIOT! I forgot to swap back out of slave, cause I was doing it so many times already.

Our first mistake already...
-ni

125
City number 5 is going up. Right in our back-fill lands, but it's not that we even have to back-fill it right now. Our culture is so strong, we have the terrain covered so it's no big deal at the moment. But nevertheless, I want to get all my planned cities up to production soon and founded.

Oh, and looks like we are already on turn #120! With only 500 Max in total, that gives me an odd feeling as I still feel like we are near the beginning.

http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof16/125.JPG

275
Oh look, Justin is actually willing to trade sailing to us.
Ammazing!!

Alright, we give Drama for Sailing and 165g.

A rip off again, but we have no choice but to get ripped off because everyone else is still on the other continent.

Ohh, I'm also a bit unsure of that trade, as it will also let Justin build a bit more culture production as well.
-ni


350
We mange to research Philosophy ourself, which now propels us into the Medieval Era.

http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof16/350.JPG

Note: Justinian is 6 turns away from learning guilds.

EoL

To the front page with you!

Hmmmm, Ghandi the Philosophical......Hmmmm stone in the second ring. Beelining the Great Wall actually makes having barbarians in the game an advatage to you rather than making it harder. The Ai has to deal with them while you don't. So much for the hard settings. Game over.

Looking forward to it, I liked your other EE game.
So this is a second try on this map? I can never get into those myself, I always get hung up on the mistakes I made the first time and end up making new (worse) ones trying to correct them.


Right, second try. My other I came in second, which really doesn't count as much. But I was close!


That's a huge stack of spies.


I think I made over 130+ at the end of the game. It is somewhere in the stats.


Well, most players, even on the Strategy & Tips board, aren't playing above Monarch. This decreases the utility of The Internet, tech trading, and espionage because they all rely on AI success. Also, there are no leaders with traits or uniques that affect so it is never sensible to try and leverage espionage.


I've been wondering about that too. Why is there traits for philosophical, etc. but not Espionage. I figured cause it is the newest gimmick, and they didn't have time to update everything Sid wanted. That is, if Sid even is part of the project anymore.


Hmmmm, Ghandi the Philosophical......Hmmmm stone in the second ring. Beelining the Great Wall actually makes having barbarians in the game an advatage to you rather than making it harder. The Ai has to deal with them while you don't. So much for the hard settings. Game over.


I'm a bit confused, but I can only assume you are talking about the stone that was off to the coast on East shoreline of capital? That was not used for the wall, or for anything. Even if I had happened to beeline for that resource, by the time I would have got any culture on that tile (making a settler or not), the great-wall would have been long gone by another civ already.

I suppose I could have gone an SSE/WE route, but I would have had to wait for Pyramids before even getting a chance to use it.

The Medieval Era!


350
Wow, things are starting to change.
Justin is actually willing to give me:

Monarchy
Mathematics
Iron Working

for Philosophy and 165g
-ni

820
City #6 is going up. So now we are set, though I'm still planning on 2 more for a bonus.

I plan to use this one for mostly just generating spies for the whole game. Of course I"ll take a few moments now and then to up some spy-infrastructure, etc.

http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof16/820.JPG

840
It looks like I wont have to BUILD city #7, I'll just TAKE IT. Thanks to the local barb-Mennonite community.

Note: 6 turns left for Currency. I guess I wanted the extra trade-routes.
Note2: Looks like I"ll have those barbs trapped/pocketed in spots for a long time. I can come by later and just attack them with units for higher promotions whenever I want. It's almost like getting free XP.

http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof16/840.JPG

940
And here we go, city #8. So we are all done now.

Note: But wait, the capital is cranking out another settler next turn... why do you think that is so?

http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof16/940.JPG

960
FINALLY! We meet someone else in the world. Saladin!
-ni

1060
Due to our Great Priest pollution, we pop one.
Might as well absorb him into the capital.

* TROJAN HORSE CITY!

And now, you can see why I was bothering with that last settler for. Here is part of my master-plan.

I make a city close to my capital, but in very bad terrain. I then GIFT this city to Justinian, which gives me a nice boost in diplo-relations. After that, I just have 1 tile to run to in order to steal techs. But not just that, I also get an incredible DISTANCE discount. And not just that, hopefully with a little poisoning, etc, I can hold down his infrastructure building.

Note: There is some bad coding where a city once gifted will never flip back to the civ it was gifted too. THIS IS JUST WHAT WE WANT! By the time the AI realizes it is stuck with a terrible junker-city (if it ever does get smart), it will be too late. It will be PERMANENTLY stuck with it. No chance in hell to raz it, or have it flip back.

http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof16/1060.JPG

1090

Oh wow, Justinian just comes out and flatly asks me if I want to accept his FREE gift of Construction.

Ammazing what happens when you know more than just ONE person in the tech-trading world. Or was that partially due to our Trojan gift?
-ni

1110
Zara greets us. If only he could have done this sooner...

* Seems Caesar greets us as well.
-ni

1120
Alright, lets make a defensive pact with Justin. Should give us a bit more protection, AND some good diplo status.
-ni

1150
Great Dynasty Event.... We choose +1 free priest in capital.
-ni

1160
We meet Rammesses, who seems to have founded Christianity.

** BTW, we used our Trojan City to steal nationalism. And THAT, propels us into the Renaissance Era!

http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof16/1160.JPG

Nice to see you going deity, obs. Now you'll finally be challenged (a bit ;))

But hey, you're using another bug, again :rolleyes:

Small question though: Why did you do that DP? Wouldn't adopting FR be way better for not being attacked, considering Justinian is not going to abandon his SR anytime soon? When you're in NSR the other conti won't have you as the worst enemy, much rather just or another one of the AIs there (luckily there's no religious lovefest there..). This can't be the price to pay for the esp discount, as you've already made yourself such a cheap stealing source.

trojan horse city: nice!!

Wow, the trojan horse idea is pretty nifty. I have never done that technique in a game of mine. But won't the AI sometimes refuse to accept a city positioned in torrid or ice land?

I love how you've held off on researching Pottery until 1060AD.

Gifting a city only 4 tiles from your capital is brilliant. Once you get railroads, you could have the same spy run a mission every other turn. Of course, you probably let them hang out for a few turns for the discount, but the potential is there :)

Wow, the trojan horse idea is pretty nifty. I have never done that technique in a game of mine. But won't the AI sometimes refuse to accept a city positioned in torrid or ice land?

at deity the upkeep costs for AI are so small that one extra city hardly costs them anything, so i guess they probably have less inhibitions against stupid city sites that will never make them any money.

But hey, you're using another bug, again 

Small question though: Why did you do that DP? Wouldn't adopting FR be way better for not being attacked, considering Justinian is not going to abandon his SR anytime soon? When you're in NSR the other conti won't have you as the worst enemy, much rather just or another one of the AIs there (luckily there's no religious lovefest there..). This can't be the price to pay for the esp discount, as you've already made yourself such a cheap stealing source.


Now, which of the 1001 bugs are we talking about? There are so many I can’t keep track.

Anyhow, maybe we should just shut up about that. Any time I mention stuff like that, I get the entire Firaxis Supporter Lobbyists (in the other forum) jumping on me for being such an ungrateful person, and how I should just rush out and buy Civ V which will solve all our problems.

Hmm, I heard something very similar to this just not too long ago… A FEW TIMES!

As for DP, I need it for protection. It gives me protection from both Justin, and others on the opposing continent. In theory, they SHOULD not want to declare on me, because Justin will be dragged in by default.


Wow, the trojan horse idea is pretty nifty. I have never done that technique in a game of mine. But won't the AI sometimes refuse to accept a city positioned in torrid or ice land?


I have CONSTANTLY observed the AI rush a settler, all the way to the other side of the world, just to plant a city down on a big block of ice next to my capital for a single cheap beaver source. This, has never been fixed, and probably won’t ever be as Civ IV seems to be almost abandon-ware already.



I love how you've held off on researching Pottery until 1060AD.


Hmm, looks like I may have got it a little too soon then. (wink)

It’s amazing what tech orders you can do when you are not dependant on cottages.



at deity the upkeep costs for AI are so small that one extra city hardly costs them anything, so i guess they probably have less inhibitions against stupid city sites that will never make them any money.


I suppose there is also a bonus for getting a city that is on its OWN continent. No matter what poor condition it may be in (excluding culture of course).

It is more the granaries than the cottages that i am wondering about.. doesn't it hamper your play imensly to delay such a comperativly cheap tech for so long and miss on such an usefull building?

Agree with Oyzar, regardless of what economy/playstyle you use granaries are the most important building. Granaried cities almost grow twice for each time a non-granaried grows, so you're effectively working with 1/2 the population during the time the city is growing to the happy cap. This is perhaps less of a comparative handicap in your games than a cottage game - doesn't directly affect settled GP and GPP from wonders, although it probably slows the construction of wonders after the first couple - but still a big deal.

Other head-scratchers about this:
In this particular game where you have a small amount of self-research, this would be cheap tech to pick up with it.
You love production but prevent yourself from getting forges by ignoring Pottery.
Whipping wonders w/o granaries effectively trades more than 1 food per (pre-multiplier) hammer. Where you whipped the Paya, as far as I can tell you're working the rice, the grass forest, mined copper hills, and one gold hill. Switching the forest for a mined grass hill trades 1 food for 2 hammers, for a mined plains hill trades 2 for 3 (if you had them). Switching for the other gold trades 2 for 2 - still better than the whip! - as well as all the commerce. I can't say for sure since I can't see the numbers, but doing that a few turns before probably could've completed the Paya as fast as the 1-turn-saving whip. You'd be starving during that time but only at 1f/turn so you could probably still be at size 4 before it finishes.

Well this is not a wonder-game, it's an EE game. But I'm also puzzled about the delay of granaries.

Agree with Oyzar, regardless of what economy/playstyle you use granaries are the most important building.

That is nice and all WHEN YOU ARE ALL BY YOURSELF.

I needed to get very strong culture up very early, for obvious reasons. Not just to get my GATE set-up, but to also prevent the painful deity culture from winning out.

If you read how culture mechanics works, you will see why this is so. There is no comparison between the two in this spot. I can always get a grainery at a future time, but you can not win tile-ownership so easy once you lose it.

I am NOT wasting hammers & time on a grainery when I still have obelisk/temple/library/monstery/etc... to build.

The Renaissance Era!

1190

Ramesses II is the first to discover Liberalism!
That's alright, we weren't planning on getting there first anyway.
-ni

1210
We meet Monte the Nut.
Looks like he either founded Jewdiasm, or stole the holy city.
-ni


1260
We steal constitution.
Time for Rep. And Mausoleums!
-ni

1270
Another G-Spy pops.
Time to build a SY in the capital.
-ni

1310
Hmm, Zara has declared war on Julius.
-ni

1340
We steal Paper.
* We also steal Education.
** We also trade constitution to Monte for:
Gunpowder
Calendar
80g.
-ni

1350
We complete forbidden palace in our out-post city.


* We trade Education to Monte for
Metal Casting
10 g.
Peace with Ramesses II (seems he was at war, and is getting his ass kicked)

http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof16/1350.JPG

1370
We steal Machinery.
-ni

1420
We steal Printing Press.
-ni

1450
We steal Liberalism.
* And seems Julius makes peace with Zara.
-ni

1470
We trade liberalism to Julius for Engineering and 175g.

—
And we trade liberalism + WM + 70g to Monte for:
Feudalism
Optics
-ni

1505
We pop another g-spy.
* And we steal democracy.
-ni

1515
Trade that democracy to monte for Astronomy & 90g.
-ni

1525
We steal chemistry.
-ni

1545
Trade chemistry to monte for:
Guids
Music
50g.

-ni

1570
Popped another G-spy.
-ni

1605
Hmm Monte declares war on Ramesses II, and so does Julius.
-ni

1620
Special event due to some scandal. We choose +1 happy faces in all cities.

http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof16/1620.JPG

1635
Another G-Spy pops.
* My defense pact with Justin is canceled, because he declares war on Monte.
-ni

1660
We steal Scientific Method, and that propels us into the Industrial Era!

http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof16/1660.JPG

EoL

*peeks at scoreboard*

Eeek, good luck...


PS: I just tried this strategy out against a bunch of emperor level AI's and I'm completely crushing them. Game was also one of the easiest ever for me to play so apparently your espionage strategy works, and I'll also try for higher levels.

Yes, I seem to always be at the bottom of the score-board list, vs what seems to be impossible odds. Contrary to popular belief, land is not a real indication of power. And this is too over-estimated by even the software.

Anyhow, I should add in some points I think I may have missed.

Shortly after building the Trojanhorse city, I ended up up-grading the official patch to Bhruic's later patches. Without these, I don't know if I would have bothered completing this game. This due to the obelisk bug, and some other nasty things.

I also want to point out that when I also mentioned the problem about spies being extremely tedious not showing their fortification, he also patched that as well. Without this, either your EE's would be almost unplayable in some situations, or you'd have to spend many, many clicks on very tedious things. So thank Bhruic for this walkthrough and your future comfort in playing this style.

Ohh final note, after installing the unofficial patch, I noticed that you can no longer trade techs away on the same turn you steal them. You may notice this how suddenly I will stop trading techs instantly after the theft.

The Industrial Era!

1660
We steal Biology. I consider this a double-whammy boost. Not only does it boost our SE economy through more food, but it also allows us to build the national park, for yet another boost.

-ni

1665
We trade Biology to Caesar for Communism & 80g.

* Lets also trade it to Monte for:
Replaceable Parts
Economics
110g.

** Also, lets steal Medicine
Usually I don't think anything of this tech, because I prefer to stay in State-Property when I can.
-ni

1670
Lets trade it to Caesar for:

Steam Power
360g.

-ni

1675
And now lets trade it to Monte for Steel.
-ni

1690
We steal Rail-Road.
Finally! Another production boost is on its way.
-ni

1695
We steal Corporation. (This one the Ais never like to trade)
Well, +1 trade-routes is better than nothing!
-ni

1725
We steal Assembly Line.
Great for production...
Great for defence...
Just terrible for pollution though...
-ni

1730
We trade Railroad to Monte for Physics and 30g.

-ni

1745
Some science pollution caused us to make a great-Scientist. That's alright, as we were planning to probably run a golden-age somewhere during the space-race. Just keep him for a while to see what develops.
-ni

1750
We steal Electricity.
-ni

1760
We trade it to monte for Rifling & 20g.

Yeah, I know it's a massive rip-off, but what else can you do.
-ni

1775
Another G-Spy pops.

*Also, we steal Industrialism.

Unfortunately... we discover that even our nicely well planned out land-grab from the beginning seems to have been almost a failed attempt. We simply don't have ANY aluminum.
Uughh, and looks like Justinian doesn't have any to trade with us either. Boy, are we in for it now! Maybe a miracle can happen and we'll discover some from a mine (like that's ever going to happen!).

Alright, we'll just have to forgo one of our favourite civics (SP) and just have to adapt environmentalism and go for the Aluminum. Co (what a waste!).

Note: National epic is being built in the city here where I have the NP. This is the best synergy I can give that city at the moment. In the meantime, it is mostly focusing on spy specialists, and even the northern coastal city is cranking out gold, in order to help me run the spy-slider at 100%


http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof16/1775.JPG

1780
We trade it to Monte for Fascism & 30g.
I want this to build the corresponding national wonder in my FP city. I want a little more culture there, and also to be prepared for any future wars.
-ni

1790
We steal Combustion.
-ni

1808
We steal Plastics. And with this we are propelled into the Modern Era.

http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof16/1808.JPG


Note: We stopped using the Trojan-Horse-City, and stole this tech from Saladin instead. It seems he had built a little city on the coast near the Trojan-city. And since Saladin is higher up the tech-tree, it only makes sense to steal from him at this point. Now I just have to ensure that Saladin stays the most advanced, and I should not have too many problems.


- EoL

Seven Great Spies and one Great Priest by turn 256. How many espionage points is your Scotland Yard city producing per turn at this point?

You settled the first two Great Spies and built Scotland Yard with a third. Don't you produce more EPs with a single settled Spy and Scotland Yard than with two settled Spies and no Scotland Yard?

That is nice and all WHEN YOU ARE ALL BY YOURSELF.

I needed to get very strong culture up very early, for obvious reasons. Not just to get my GATE set-up, but to also prevent the painful deity culture from winning out.

If you read how culture mechanics works, you will see why this is so. There is no comparison between the two in this spot. I can always get a granary at a future time, but you can not win tile-ownership so easy once you lose it.

I am NOT wasting hammers & time on a grainery when I still have obelisk/temple/library/monstery/etc... to build.

Point taken. I do understand the cultural mechanics and why getting the expansions early is very important. However you only have to worry about this in border cities. Looking at 940AD picture, you have two border cities (and I can appreciate the extra importance of expanding their borders to block the rest of the land from Justinian), and will get 2 more border cities with the trojan horse. Not having granaries in the other cities still seems like a mistake.

You settled the first two Great Spies and built Scotland Yard with a third. Don't you produce more EPs with a single settled Spy and Scotland Yard than with two settled Spies and no Scotland Yard?

Yes long term but he didn't use the esp slider then OR didn't generate enough commerce to consider a SY of immediate benefit.
The argument can still be made for thinking long term of course, but I'll leave that discussion to those who've had better success with EE games.

General question about a SSE/EE:

Do you only run spy specialists? I must be missing something. A courthouse allows 1 spy specialist, how do you get more than that pre-constitution? I'm assuming the answer is to not transition to a pure EE until democracy, that would be 5 spies total which is pretty good, another 2 when you hit communism.

I'm a huge proponent of obsolete's sse/we strats and play almost exclusively with a similar strat now, but I couldn't get my EE running in this sse/ee game. I kept having the problem of too many specialists and not being able to turn them into spies.

Shortly after building the Trojanhorse city, I ended up up-grading the official patch to Bhruic's later patches. Without these, I don't know if I would have bothered completing this game. This due to the obelisk bug, and some other nasty things.

I also want to point out that when I also mentioned the problem about spies being extremely tedious not showing their fortification, he also patched that as well. Without this, either your EE's would be almost unplayable in some situations, or you'd have to spend many, many clicks on very tedious things. So thank Bhruic for this walkthrough and your future comfort in playing this style.



Which patch is this?

^^Bhruic's patch... it solves some issues brought by the oficial 3.13 patch. Check it in here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=246057)

You couldn't get a world map in ANY of those trade deals? Not even the Electricity for Rifling one? C'mon Obsolete! Being Able To Look At The Map Is Power!

He knows the map already since it's a replay :-). (I'm impressed, BTW)

General question about a SSE/EE:

Do you only run spy specialists? I must be missing something. A courthouse allows 1 spy specialist, how do you get more than that pre-constitution? I'm assuming the answer is to not transition to a pure EE until democracy, that would be 5 spies total which is pretty good, another 2 when you hit communism.

That's what I'm wondering also, I understand the Superspy gives 12:espionage: which is a big boost , but how do you generate huge amount of points pre-con.
cripp

Could you summarize how many techs in total you stole from the AIs in this game? How many missions failed? With each failed mission you suffer a diplo penalty correct? What are the average success probablity for stealing techs?

It seems to me that relying on stealing techs in a Deity game is a very unreliable strategy for the following reasons:

1. Every spy mission is a big gamble; assume you can successfully steal techs 60% of the times, this means you expect to fail 4 times for every 10 tries and wasting tons of EPs since stealing tech is the most expensive spy mission.

2. Failed missions cause diplo penalties. Not for long, the only civ you are stealing from could become pissed at you and steam roll over your weak empire.

Comparing to other more reliable strategies i.e. Light bulb/Tech trade; warmongering and etc. the players have much more control of the game rather then dependend on something that only works 50-60% of the times.

p.s. With an early granary, you can whip temples/monesteries/theaters/Liberaries/Universities much much faster than you can hammer build them. Granary should almost always be your 1st or 2nd (after monument) build in every city.

1. Every spy mission is a big gamble; assume you can successfully steal techs 60% of the times, this means you expect to fail 4 times for every 10 tries and wasting tons of EPs since stealing tech is the most expensive spy mission.


Failed missions don't cost EP. You only spend the EP when you succeed.

Awesome game from you as usual, but all it does is demonstrate your great Civ4 skills. I think I missed two points of this game:

1) Under what situations would an EE be better than the typical CE or SE?
2) I see a lot of workshops in your screenshots. What synergy does workshops have with an EE, rather than farms or cottages?

So why can't cities build espionage?

2) I see a lot of workshops in your screenshots. What synergy does workshops have with an EE, rather than farms or cottages?
to build spies

@obs, could you play a game with no or limited brokering? This, coupled with stealing (monopoly) techs is incredibly powerful.

So why can't cities build espionage?


That might make this strategy overpowered (I think?). If a city can generate 30 raw hammers before the AD's (such as with a high prod, bureaucracy capital), that would give insane EP.

to build spies

@obs, could you play a game with no or limited brokering? This, coupled with stealing (monopoly) techs is incredibly powerful.

Mystyfly,
I think you are asking for too much. This is Deity, brother.

Mystyfly,
I think you are asking for too much. This is Deity, brother.
It ain't intramurals.

*Wonders if anyone knows this reference*

So why can't cities build espionage?

It's not really needed. Instead, build wealth and raise the espionage slider. If you have good espionage multipliers that would be a better strategy even if you could build espionage, just like it can be for building science now.

Wouldn't the raised esp. slider hinder research?

Wouldn't the raised esp. slider hinder research?

EDIT! Just realized that an espionage game relies more on esp. than tech. Wow, I must be losing focus here...

The Modern Era!


1814
We steal Radio.
-ni

1816
Lets trade it to Justinian for:
Artillery
W.M.
410g.


Note: I want Artillery so I can start working on the Apollo station soon, and I also want to get a crack at nabbing Aluminum Co.
-ni

1818
Another G-Spy pops in the capital.
-ni

1820
Nothing special, the game crashed AGAIN after CTRL-Clicking the trade-menu shortcut. I had to roll back a few turns to this timeline because my autosave ini was not set at 1.

* Ohh, and we steal Rocketry.

** You know what that means... We shift out of SP and into environmentalism so we can use our Great Scientist from earlier to found Aluminum Co.

Ahhh, I finally had a very valid reason to found corporations for the first time!
-ni

1822
I usually don't mention all my silly RESOURCE trade deals, but this one is important:
I trade a vital resource (oil) to Zara for movies & 7 gpt.
I THINK this should give me some very good relations.

** Another G-Spy pops.
*** Byzantine citizens adopted imported Ethiopean Tea.
-ni

1824
Wow! The ban on nuclear weapons voting FAILS!
I have NEVER, EVER seen this happen before! (Unless I defy it)
I suspect something with Bhruic's patch may be responsible for this.
-ni

1832
Another dumb event, and we lose -1 relations with Justinian.
I have some problems. After I lost my DP with him earlier, couldn't get it back again. My diplo was so bad from all the spies getting caught, I could never get him back to pleased. Even with the open borders, gifting, same religion, same favourite civic, I just couldn't repair relations.

For a long time I stayed in theocracy just to prevent him from falling worse than cautious and then decide to attack me for the hell of it.

Ughh... It should be mentioned, that all those spy jobs have cost me bad relations. I can't get him to pleased anymore, and so am still holding onto theocracy a lot.
-ni

1836
Another G-Spy pops.
-ni

Hmm, Montezuna is fighting vs Rammesses again...
-ni

1838
We start a golden age from the spy, and steal Computers from Saladin as soon as he gets it. Now, we SHOULD be able to complete it before he does.

BTW, we specifically timed the spy to pop out before hand, just for this event.
-ni

1840
I gave Electricity to Ramesses for 2400g. I am not sure why, maybe I wanted the gold just to keep my spy eccon. At 100%.
-ni

1842

Christ! Out of nowhere Julius suddenly declares war on me!

No, no no. This is so not happening! This could NOT have happened at a worse time. I don't have a defence pact anymore, and I am so busy with the internet. Arghhhh!

My stupid fault for not checking to see if Julius had enough of his hands. This is what I get for giving into his demands and giving him trade deals! No appreciation at all, so rigged.

Note: Look at his first LAUGHABLE attack. Two stacks of expensive destroyers & battleships, and yet only 2 transports. He decided to throw all his units from his SNEAK-ATTACK into my city, with culture defense, sitting on a hill, with fortified units, with infantry CG promotions!

Haha. Even though it was much lighter defended than I would like, we still held off the onslaught. Now, good thing I'm still in nationhood. Time to get cranking!

Second note: This SURPRISE is also my fault because I didn't build at least one airship earlier to keep scouting the ocean sides. So again, my mistake, and it could have temporarily cost me a city. I wont do THAT again!

http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof16/1842.JPG

1844
Justinian declares war on Ramesses.
-ni

1846
Phew, the internet ready for completion!
And look how much I am starving. That's due to Julius sending a hundred stupid missiles my way trying to destroy all my precious workshops. Ughhh! Like I said, he could not have hit at a worse time! LOL

http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof16/1846.JPG

1848
Rut, Roh! Another SoD attack from Julius comes. And it looks like there are even MORE amphibious items en-route! Gahhh!

Quick, time to keep drafting and over-load the cities with stockpiled defenders.

* Because I am soooooo pissed at being nice and only getting backstabbed for it, I decide to trade computers & 1025 g. to Zara for W.M. and war on Julius & Ramesses.

http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof16/1848.JPG

1850
The internet is online, and we grab a bunch of useless techs like Mono and that whole retarded branch which only civ noobs bother to research. It seems something else went wrong, and I lost another turn on finishing the internet, I just can't remember what caused that.

* We gain a Great General.
-ni


1856
Ughhh!!! And again we are getting hit by even larger SoDs! After wiping out the last one, we just got hit by even more. At least, we are slaughtering him, and he's losing his attempts. Even his attempts at some of my other cities which I haven't taken shots of yet.

Note: I got a bit scared at this point, and used a bunch of my workers to lure some of his tanks away from attacking my city the next turn. It worked of course, (every unit helps). So I ended up slaughtering him even worse with his weakened attacks. Stupid AI should be smart enough to attack with everything at once.

http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof16/1856.JPG

1858
Another Great General pops from all the bloodshed I gave Julius.
-ni

1860
A Great Spy pops.
* I gave Justin MM for W.M. & 690 g. I guess I wanted the gold to stay at 100% spy eccon again. Oh, and by the way, I DID have a warrior guarding my capital, which served absolutely no purpose, but was able to march him into my costal city and upgrade him to a machine-gun earlier. Now THAT was useful.
-ni


1872
Damnit! Peace-Keeping votes succeed, so we have to all make peace with Julius now. What a sham! I take the brunt of things, and just when I get some payback going, the bastard gets off scott-free!

* Just a sneak peek into Saladin's coastal city.

I did not play quite optimal here. What I should have done is put a bud missionary in his city and spread it. Then I would have received a 15% bonus. Unfortunately, this isn't really mentioned in the docs, and whatever little info there is on how this worked was very vague and misleading (typical). I only found out later how it works. It works when you put your religion in an OPPOSING religious city. Hmm!

http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof16/1872.JPG

1880
Hmm, Zara launches a couple nukes, and Ramesses capitulates,becoming a vassal of Monte. Wow how things have changed. The very weak Monte now OWNS what was his superior opponent.

So, everyone is at peace again.
-ni


1882
Stupid Free-Speech vote for the UN. We defy it. BTW, Justin has been running FS for a while. I haven't really bothered to bring him out of it because I am hurting very bad as far as diplo goes due to the past spy jobs.

*Ohh and look! The space-elevator is ready for completion. Hmm, I think I may have forgot to report some stolen techs, not sure. Maybe they came in from the internet so I didn't bother.

** Monte can have radio for 570g. Boy am I overly generous or what!?

http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof16/1882.JPG

1888
Wow, I give Zara advanced flight for just 520g!
-ni

1892
Alright, and now... I give Zara Robotics for 160g, and war on Julius Caesar.
I want to continue my revenge for the earlier BS.
-ni

1894
Hmm, looks like Julius bribed Justin into the war on his side. Or he just did it on his own, because Zara has been sending off a ton of tactical nukes on Julius's ass.


* Boy I was a naughty guy, now I bribed Monte and his vassal into war vs Zara for mass media!
-ni

1896
Christ!
That dreaded MAKE PEACE VOTE strikes again! What a waste...
This is soooooooooooo not happening to me.
-ni

1901
I steal Laser from Saladin, because everyone else is just so ass-backwards in tech speed, that it will take forever for the internet to bring them to me.

Oh, and Saladin builds the Civilized Jewlers Inc. What a waste on his part.
-ni



1906
We complete the SDI. Phew.... Nuke-Proof now. I'm getting a bit worried with all the bangs that were going off earlier.

* G-Spy pops as well.
-ni


1907
Hmm, even though I brought war allies against Zara, he is willing to give me Aluminum, spices and 1 hit movie and 1 hit single for oil.

Great! Now I can switch back to SP.

We also take excess aluminum, just to prevent him from trading it to anyone else
-ni

1910
We give Monte Ecology and computers for 290g and war with Julius.
I want to get him stronger so I can get him to attack Saladin near the end.
-ni

1914
I decide to give him Robotics for free, so he can have more teeth.
-ni

1915
I give Ecology to Zara for 200g and war with Julius too.
-ni

1919
Evidence of Fallout still can be seen in numerous places...

http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof16/1919.JPG

1923
Rut-Roh, Saladin declares war on monte and his vassal. I guess he doesn't know what else to do since he's researching future-tech. In the meantime, I keep just sabotaging his parts so he will never get off the ground.

* We now give Refrigeration to Monte so he can focus on Saladin, by bribing him to make peace with Julius.
-ni

1924
I give computers and fascism to Ramesses, because he is not doing a damn thing to protect himself from Saladin. At least he is a buffer to protect Monte.
-ni

1925
I give him Robotics too!
And then I give monte Composites.
And I give Zara Composites!
-ni


1927
Damnit, a few ICBMs go off and hit Monte.

But in the meantime, I stole Genetics from Saladin. Time to work on the extra space-ship part.

Actually, due to my own problems with health, I am wondering if maybe I should have stolen this tech a little earlier for the +3h in all cities.

Anyhow, this propels us into the future Era...

http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof16/1927.JPG

EoL

Seven Great Spies and one Great Priest by turn 256. How many espionage points is your Scotland Yard city producing per turn at this point?


Can’t really give a number on that, because I am always changing almost from 1 turn to the next.

You settled the first two Great Spies and built Scotland Yard with a third. Don't you produce more EPs with a single settled Spy and Scotland Yard than with two settled Spies and no Scotland Yard?


You produce the same EP, but less science the other way.


Do you only run spy specialists?


Yes, unfortunately I ended up with 2 silly cottages because the barbarians planted them in the northern city before I captured it. Nothing I can really do about that.

You couldn't get a world map in ANY of those trade deals? Not even the Electricity for Rifling one? C'mon Obsolete! Being Able To Look At The Map Is Power!


Every time I wanted, Monte, Julius, etc refused to give me a W.M. Or if they were willing I’m sure it was a ridiculous price.

That's what I'm wondering also, I understand the Superspy gives 12 which is a big boost , but how do you generate huge amount of points pre-con.


I guess, the power of micro-management…

Could you summarize how many techs in total you stole from the AIs in this game?


Hmm. I mentioned every tech I stole. But I’m too lazy to count them all up.




1) Under what situations would an EE be better than the typical CE or SE?
2) I see a lot of workshops in your screenshots. What synergy does workshops have with an EE, rather than farms or cottages?



Well, EE sort of is a SE to begin with. As for workshops, well hammers is one of the most important things in the game. You use them for making spies… spy buildings… happy/health buildings to run more spy specialists, etc..


@obs, could you play a game with no or limited brokering? This, coupled with stealing (monopoly) techs is incredibly powerful.


I try not to play with tampered rule-sets because the AI is already incredibly stupid on the defaults as it is. And Firaxis SUPPOSEDLY tweaked the AI for the default rules.

I'm wondering why they gave the AI the ability to naval war in the first place. Incredibly stupid how they suicide their non-amphibious stacks into player cities. I've seen this in so many demo games now (and my own as well).

As if attacking right off the ship was the way to go before Marines. No sane human player does that unless Viking or with a two-generation tech lead...

That's what I'm wondering also, I understand the Superspy gives 12 which is a big boost , but how do you generate huge amount of points pre-con.

I guess, the power of micro-management…


I don't understand how "micro-management" explains this at all. Pre-constitution you can run 1 spy in a city. So in a SE, what kind of specialists are you running? I'm assuming scientists, but you never mentioned it. I'm assuming you have to at least partially rely on research to supplement your EE pre-constitution. Can you confirm this?

I assume what Obsolete means 'through Micro management', is use of the spy slider to change Gold/espionage.

Also the switching from farms to worksshops/mines to increase revenue/hammers as case maybe.

Its not all about specialists, but getting the max from your buildings/production.

You'll notice espionage DOESN'T stay at 100%, but SCIENCE did stay at 0%.

Ipex, I understand how those types of micromanagements would help, especially if he was running a CE. But that in now way explains how a SE can be ran with only 1 spy specialist available pre-constitution. I'm still curious to see what kind of specialists were ran pre-constitution.

Ipex, I understand how those types of micromanagements would help, especially if he was running a CE. But that in now way explains how a SE can be ran with only 1 spy specialist available pre-constitution. I'm still curious to see what kind of specialists were ran pre-constitution.

so am I! i'm wanting to try an EE myself and am real curious how to distribute the points out to get enough for what I want to steal.

Hey Obsolete, Is it possible to win the game that you are doing, Or are you just doing this for fun?

Ipex, I understand how those types of micromanagements would help, especially if he was running a CE. But that in now way explains how a SE can be ran with only 1 spy specialist available pre-constitution. I'm still curious to see what kind of specialists were ran pre-constitution.



Pre constitution I did not use any other specialists, just spies. This is because I did not want to pollute the pool. The science was all from science slider, which boosted all monies from other means. This includes gifts, commerce tiles, trade-routes, trade-deals, etc.

Of course, even when I drop my science to 0, I am still making science regardless.



Hey Obsolete, Is it possible to win the game that you are doing, Or are you just doing this for fun?



Well I assume so, as you shall see…

The Future Era


1930

Lets make a deal with Zara:

We trade Oil, Gold, Wine in exchange for Dye and ALUMINUM!
Now I can switch back to State Property and still get an aluminum source, even the national park gets it!

-ni

1932
We decide to steal Fibre Optics, ALSO we end up stealing Fusion as well.
Time to work on the cockpit and SS-Engine so I can fly the hell out of here.
-ni

1933
You may have guessed what is coming now...
We make another trade with Zara:
Fibre Optics for:
War with Julius Caesar
Stop trades with Saladin
80g.

Ahh damnit. Also Monte just capitulated to Saladin this round too.
-ni

1935
Another Great Spy pops.
-ni

1938
Do you remember how at the begging everything was so nice and green? Now look at it all! This is all from global warming!

Note: Cockpit AND SS-Engine will be ready for the take-off next turn

http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof16/1938.JPG

1939
Hmm, Justinian just declared war on Zara...

* In the meantime, up... up... and away!

Though we seem to be 1 SS-Engine short, so we'll have to wait a whole 12 turns.

Alright, I want to prepare to be pounced on again, or at least pounce on someone else. So, change civics to:

PS/N/CS/SP/T

http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof16/1939.JPG

1944
And I decided to steal Sealth, just so I could make some fancy bombers if I want to.

7 turns to victory...

* Oh and in other news, Saladin decided to dogpile onto Zara as well. Looks like I better arrive in alpha-c pretty soon, I may end up losing to some sort of diplo vote soon!
-ni

1951

Ahhh... our lovely deity win comes home. And without building a rinky-dinky cottage or wasting our GP's on lightbulbs.

BTW, I had drafted & created a little army but instead decided to just play things safe in the last few turns. Better safe than sorry!

http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof16/1951.JPG

Congratulations on the win. Just one major question, I know that you kept sabotaging saladin's space parts but didn't you have to do that to everyone else as they would have been constructing space parts?

I cannot see any pictures in Obsoletes games just checked if my browser had a prob but in the SG threads everythings fine :confused:

Anyone else getting this?

The host he uses for his images is "suspended" it looks like.

Wow, I must have been really lucky to see obsolete's posts just a few minutes after he posted them... (now I can't)

Wow, I must have been really lucky to see obsolete's posts just a few minutes after he posted them... (now I can't)

Hah, same thing happened to me. :cool:

Hmm, sorry folks. Had nothing but problems with that site, and seems they are upset because my renewal payment hasn't arrived immediately on time. I guess we have to wait until the post office hurries up.

Gah, It's still down

What site are you using? I'd love to se some saves from this!

Hmm, sorry folks. Had nothing but problems with that site, and seems they are upset because my renewal payment hasn't arrived immediately on time. I guess we have to wait until the post office hurries up.

You pay? Use Photobucket, it's free.