Here the Master of Arms and the Sr Diplomat along with the general citizenry will discuss our overall strategic plans. These include but are not limited to military readiness, war planning, foreign affairs, intelligence and espionage.

Military Intel
The first order of business is military intel. We have a scout in madrid and he can keep an eye on both cities and alert us to when they found a third city As well as keep us up to speed on their troop levels. We also need to detach a unit to the Babylonian territories for Military Intel. My thoughts are to disband the Prochon Warband as it is costing us 1 gpt. We can then dispatch a HA to scout Babylonia and the rest of the continent to the East.

Unit Organization
The next order of business is the naming of our units. We can go with a generic numeric method (Div. 1,2,3 etc) or name each individual unit. Either way it has to be done. I like a more generic method like numeric and only naming special units. What do you guys think?

Espionage
I suggest putting all EPs on Lincoln. If he is to be our trade partner in the future it will be good to know what he is researching. I must admit I am not the expert on Espionage but I don't see how keeping Hatty's Demo could outweigh a plan to see Lincolns research in the future. Unless we plan on using spies for the war wherein the points could be useful.

Foreign Affairs
I covered in depth in the Citizens Forum. I would suggest we ask Lincoln for Masonry as a token of our friendship. Either go for Sailing soon or build a road to connect a trade route with us and Hatty. I suggest a road as it can be used if we decide to go to war in the future.

Keep the Prochon Warband, it has got a good medic promotion, it can serve as a doctor for all eternity.

Can we get our Horse Archers + Axes to take that Barbarian city?

I'd like 1 unit to scout our eastern territory.

I prefer generic numbering as it's easier

Agree with espionage against Lincoln


I don't know why there isn't a connection from us to Hatty yet, but I guess it'll come automatically soon. We are connected to Barcalona by river.

I don't know why there isn't a connection from us to Hatty yet, but I guess it'll come automatically soon. We are connected to Barcalona by river.

We need sailing before we can trade by river.

We need sailing before we can trade by river.

Quite right indeed. Normally, the AI will have sailing early, but Hatty doesn't have it yet. I guess we might as well wait for her to research it, our workers have better things to do.

I agree, we have more imprortant things to do for now.

We have: 4 workers, 1 scout, 5 archers, 4 horse archers, 2 warriors, 1 axeman
Spanish units we can see: 1 settler, 3 workers, 1 missionary, 1 archer, 1 axeman
Babylonian units we can see: 2 settlers, 4 workers, 1 great merchant, 4 bowmen, 1 sword, 2 axes

Our production: Arete/Settler/9, NG/Temple/7,Edorai/Archer/3,Arkadia/Library/13

On the power graph, we are significantly behind Lincoln, can't see Hatty
On the demographics, we are in 5th place for soldiers and 7th place for population
We are 3rd in land area, hopefully the 3 settlers we can see won't take all the spots we want

Lincoln has both IW and Construction. Some of his advantage in power comes from techs.

Hatty has copper, does not have horses
Lincoln has horses and iron, does not have copper

We should consider trading horseback riding to Spain for IW. She cannot use it, and we would find out where the iron is. I very carefully determined her willingness to conduct this trade, and it would be accepted. (Note for others: if you want to check a trade which shows resources, zoom in all the way on an ocean square so you won't inadvertently find out where the resource is and get inappropriate advance info, and exit the game immediately)

We need a peek at Barcelona to find out what units are there. If no spearmen, then consider a worker grab and pillage mission. We also need to know the defensive level, expecting it to be 40%.

In a war of elimination, the first objective should be to capture or raze Barcelona. Assuming 40-60% defenses, before we can even consider an attack we need 4 catapults and at least 4 attackers. Type of attacker depends on whether Spain is building spearmen or not. It also depends on the location of iron.

Catapults are 50 :hammers: and will take 8 turns at present population in Edorai, 7 turns in NG.
Swordsmen (if we have iron) are 40 :hammers: and will take 6 and 5 turns respectively.
War Elephants are 60 :hammers: and would take 9 and 8 turns respectively.

4 catapults, 2 swordsmen and 2 war elephants are 400 total :hammers: and can be produced in 27 turns with the production of 2 cities.

If we have iron and put one city on swordsmen now, there will be 20 turns to produce swordsmen while we wait for construction. We could finish 4 swords in that time. After construction is available, we'll need another 20 turns to produce cats & war elephants.

All durations can be lowered by whipping, but at the cost of slowed research.

The bottom line is that the earliest we can consider a war of conquest is 40 turns from now. That may be delayed by Spanish advancements between now and then. Another 10 or so turns delay can increase our strike force by another catapult and another attacker, which would speed the capture of Barcelona and increase our odds of success.

This estimate does not include additional defenders. A military buildup would affect the treasury, as we are already paying unit upkeep. The economic plan needs to account for this if we are to embark on the plan for conquest.

If lincoln has construction we should trade math with hatty, lincoln will otherwise.

We should consider trading horseback riding to Spain for IW. She cannot use it, and we would find out where the iron is. I very carefully determined her willingness to conduct this trade, and it would be accepted. (Note for others: if you want to check a trade which shows resources, zoom in all the way on an ocean square so you won't inadvertently find out where the resource is and get inappropriate advance info, and exit the game immediately)

Just put both techs on the table and ask "what will make this deal work?"


~20 turns after construction sounds good, though I think we should be able to produce these units quicker if we use all our cities and whip a bit. I'd say we need at least 2 catapults, 2 war elephants and some swords/axes/horse archers to take Barcelona. Only the catapults and war elephants have to be produced after construction, so we should be able to get to it quicker.

Still, we're currently doing currency - construction, so getting there might take some time.

~20 turns after construction sounds good, though I think we should be able to produce these units quicker if we use all our cities.

If lincoln has construction we should trade math with hatty, lincoln will otherwise.

Ok, she'll take that deal too.

~20 turns after construction sounds good, though I think we should be able to produce these units quicker if we use all our cities.

True, but I figured we might still be working on economic buildings at that point so better to plan for less and adjust if we can.

FYI, one of my last official acts going about a week back or so was to make DaveShack the Senior Military Advisor dutchfire, et. all.

You all did see that right?

Yes, of course. DaveShack's report on military ventures is unmatched in accuracy and detail. Articulating events yet to come is a masterful art for a King's Military Advisor.

Congrats DaveShack.

Could the position holders of the APR put their titles in their profile signatures? This would help me a lot right now.

Could the position holders of the APR put their titles in their profile signatures? This would help me a lot right now.
Mmmm. Probably not, thecommonnate. But they are all listed in this thread, in the first spoiler (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6839838&postcount=1).
I might suggest you copy them onto a sticky note and stick it to your monitor. :)

My signature has my current position :king:

Dutchfire do you also still hold your position in the merchant academy?

Dutchfire do you also still hold your position in the merchant academy?

Technically, I do, but the position wasn't a very big one. I'll keep the merchant academy updated though.

We got 3 techs from our Hindu Brothers (and Sisters) in faith this turnset. Lincoln is expanding quickly, while Hatsheput seems to be stuck by our city blockade :)

I heard Barcelona has the Temple of Artimites, whats the news on razing it or not now?

I heard Barcelona has the Temple of Artimites, whats the news on razing it or not now?

I think we'll keep it. We can just decide to let Arkadia work most of the shared tiles.

Actually, Barcelona can help Arkadia, by working some cottages (when Arkadia is still too small to work them all), so they start growing.

Research should go to Code of Laws in my opinion. It leads to Civil Service and gives us courthouses.

I think we'd be better suited going another route for the time being, perhaps grabbing feud which also leads to CS but no-one has researched that whilst we might be able to trade for CS from Rome.

But with Kassite and later Spanish lands it would be nice to have courthouses.

Indeed but we wont have spanish lands for awhile and it would be more preferable to build marketplaces in them anyways.

Theocracy would also give us more xp, helping the cause, and yes, marketplaces would be more profitable. Not to mention a new religon...

I agree with you BCLG100, your position was chosen well, Grand Cardinal Vizier.

Feudalism is expensive though :sad: And it doesn't really have a huge benefit IMO. Have I mentioned I dislike longbowmen already? :) And I rate Bureaucracy over Vassalage and Slavery above Serfdom (although the latter depends on game situation a lot).

Then again, we don't have a super-duper capital, and we will have a lot of units, we could go for Vassalage and a lot of war.

Feudalism may be expensive but its also a pre req for guilds which we should perhaps be meanering towards following CS. We don't have a super capital and as we will be warring our teching may be slowed down so it could perhaps be worth the switch to vassalage. Though i do agree serfdom is crap unless your spiritual.

Eh, my bad, feudalism doesn't need theology...opps.

How'd you all feel about war next turnchat?

Are we really prepared for a victory? Or are we just going to war to see what happens?

Are we really prepared for a victory? Or are we just going to war to see what happens?

I just want to give you some extra land tiles to handle ;)

I believe that we should plan the invasion of Spain for the next Turn Session, but at the very latest possible. This is for the benefit of the monarchy's stability as well as for the power of our military.

Right now, the only real connection the Empire seems to have with its people is the want of the Spanish lands. The APR has recently experienced the somewhat successful Principality of Kassite emerge, and the allied PoF seem to continue to want to keep NG independent. War would be helpful to the cause of bringing us closer together, but not if no one gets a say in it. One thing viewed even the slightest but wrong could spark another, more momentous debate, therefore, I say we should not declare war until we are completely sure of ourselves, and before the Spanish can surely drive us out.

This would help our cause too, if we take this time to bring more power to the military. It could help our assault, our defense of Spain and her conquered territories, and possibly allow us to position troops near the Babylonian border if strong tensions with Lincon emerge (which I doubt, but nonetheless, should be considered.)

P.S: Could we borrow money from Lincoln to promote the Warband guy to a axeman?

Well, I'm glad the next turn session is still unscheduled. I would definately like to see DaveShack's Military Report and Battleplan before we declare anything.

Well thats the main reason i havent put anything down. We dont seem to have anything concrete to work with so far.

I'll add an updated plan to my queue of things to do tonight after work.

Right now, the only real connection the Empire seems to have with its people is the want of the Spanish lands. The APR has recently experienced the somewhat successful Principality of Kassite emerge, and the allied PoF seem to continue to want to keep NG independent. War would be helpful to the cause of bringing us closer together, but not if no one gets a say in it. One thing viewed even the slightest but wrong could spark another, more momentous debate, therefore, I say we should not declare war until we are completely sure of ourselves, and before the Spanish can surely drive us out.


:mischief: You didn't here it frm me..... yet.

Still running like mad to catch up on work and home after the 4 nights in Vegas. Sorry, game time has been limited. Take now for instance, my pillow is looking pretty inviting.

We need a military plan and I don't mind input from anyone who wishes to contribute. :)

Sorry, but military plans are not at all my field...
But if you tell which/how many units needed and where/when,
I can help pointing the cities to do the job, at lowest cost
(commerce/science) and the timings.
Best regards,

In my opinion, our military plan shuld be sweet and simple, take all of the military forces to be used, and send them to attack Madrid. From there the Spanish will redirect their forces to Madrid, We will just lean back and keep a good defensive hold on them, until they have depleeted most of their forces, then we send another wave of units to capture Barcelona. And then Use a combined force of the two waves in an attack against Seville. And we have a war ended. I would say this would be a 30-40 turn war.

I'd say go capture Barcalona, wait there for our units to heal and a couple more to join (if we've still got tonnes left then just press on). From there we go and attack Madrid, by that point Spain should be effectively dead and its just a case of mopping up.

Catapults + War Elephants = Instant Win

How long before we have enough Cats and Elephants for a complete victory and will the Homeland be fully protected from Spain AND Babylon?

Spanish forces and defensive attributes we can see:

Barcelona - 2 archers; grassland; 40% defense.
Toledo - axe (combat1), spear (com1), archer; hills; 20%
Madrid - sword (com1), sword, axe (com1), spear(com1); grass; 60%
Seville - axe, archer; plains; 40%
Santiago - ?; plains; ?

there are also a spear visiting Arkadia, 2 swords (com1) and an axe (com2) outside cities


Our forces:
7 archers(MP), 4 horse archers, 3 war elephants, 2 warriors (MP), 3 axemen, and 3 catapults

Under production: 3 war elephants, 1 catapult which will collectively finish in 4 or fewer turns. A further 2 units can be ready by the 6th turn, and 2 more by the 9th turn.

My personal preference is to launch a war when 6 catapults are ready and in place. I'm probably a little bit too conservative.

On the defensive side, Arkadia could use another archer, or we can try to preemptively attack incoming swordsmen with axemen when they're on exposed ground.

Net: an immediate attack on Barcelona is possible, if a little risky. At a minimum we'll get a worker out of it. They also have a settler holed up there.

One slight problem, upon DOW the spearman visiting in Arkadia could land on the jungle tile being chopped right now, and he'd be pretty hard to dislodge from that spot. If we're lucky he'll land on the grass SW of Arkadia, which isn't even across a river, in which case we can DOW, kill the spear with an axe, then capture the worker and place catapults there for bombard next turn. Or we could wait till the Spanish chop finishes and deny them the possible safe landing zone for that spear.

It's not really a full plan, but better than nothing. Any comments?

Not exactly a comment, but questions:

1) Will 6 elephants+6 catapults be the main attack force?

2) Some other escort (like axes to fight spears) and garrison?

3) Shall our fast units try to pillage metals?

4) Arkadia lands is the rally point,right?

Best regards,

About the spear/wandering through our territory. We may as well let them wander- unless they're planning on pillaging a lot (which i doubt) then they're not going to do much harm.

About the spear/wandering through our territory. We may as well let them wander- unless they're planning on pillaging a lot (which i doubt) then they're not going to do much harm.

When we DOW, the spear will move automatically outside our territory, right? Once there, might as well kill it to gain experience -- or is there a reason not to? The real trouble is if it lands on that jungle tile, which due to the defensive bonus is the natural rally point for our troops entering Spanish territory. Instead the tile would become the rally point for any Spanish attackers, if they even bother to attempt an attack.

Not exactly a comment, but questions:

1) Will 6 elephants+6 catapults be the main attack force?

2) Some other escort (like axes to fight spears) and garrison?

3) Shall our fast units try to pillage metals?

4) Arkadia lands is the rally point,right?

Best regards,

1) Yes, that's right.

2) In my own game I'd include an axe or two so that spears can't attack our stack and pick off our elephants before they reach their destination.

3) Yes, pillage if possible so that Spain can't build reinforcements. Unfortunately IIRC they have a fairly remote copper source that won't be easy to pillage.

4) Sounds good, and most of the troops are already there.

Using DaveShack's analysis, I would agree with thecommonnate and say that we should make our DOW very late in the next turnchat (assuming it's going to be a 10 turn t/c).

That way we've achieved war status before the end of the session, which seems to be a mandate, plus we'll have a robust reinforcement wave headed towards the next primary battle. Say turn 8-9 for a DOW.

Yes, 8-9 sounds reasonable.

I don't know how long the spearmen will stay in Arkadia, but I don't like the idea of declaring before they are gone.

Kassite is not defended well enough in my opinion, though, as two horse archers make a good pillaging strike force but not a good defense force.

Also, as DaveShack pointed out, the bronze resource near NG is unlikely to be pillaged, but even if it was in danger we do have an iron resource in the deasert region on the border of Edorai and Nippur.

Other then that I think our military is capable of fighting the war, if not winning it, against Spain. However, like I have said before, power, economy, and anxiousness are all good things in this situation, and we will only improve the effectiveness of these things by giving the war more, but not too much, time.

I'd like to declare war this turn, before pressing enter, and moving our 7 War Elephants, 2 Horse Archers, 4 catapults and 2 axemen S-SW, so they can attack Barcelona next turn. Barcelona is only defended by 3 units, so we can take it easily. We can then go on towards Madrid, their capital. After that, we can clean up their remaining cities. By the way, there's another Spanish city according to Hatsheput's city list, Cordoba. I think it might be NW of Madrid's bananas.

I'd like to whip an axeman in Kassite soon, for defence.

I'm in. Let's go.