Either the latter game Government and Economic civics need to have severely higher civic upkeep, or these wonders need a completely differrent function.

It is a guaranteed reliable game winner to build both the pyramids and the marco polo, then switch to corporatism/global trade. These civics are so powerful that they even dwarf representation+caste system and a situation is created where the player who does this quickly techs so much faster than anyone else that they have lightsabers while everyone else has only muskets.

A great example is the game I just got out of and likely will not return to. My friend who did as I described above had nearly 1000 GNP while the nearest competitor was floating around 225. This happens every time.


Honestly it goes all the way back to BTS, but why do the Pyramids enable all government civics anyways? It's a giant religious vanity project for a king.

Wouldnt the Pyramids be more like the Taj Mahal in social function?

Wouldnt something like this make more sense?

+50% golden age length
-50% Anarchy Length
+X happiness for Spiritual leaders (it is a religious wonder after all, it's not the golden gate bridge)
Free Ceremonial Altar in every city.
Requires Palace ( its a megatomb for your king)

I did the xml for it and it works fine ingame.. I plan to use this going forward as it does seem best to address the root cause ( modern/futuristic forms of government and commerce completely unsustainable by an ancient culture giant pile of boulders or no being applied to said ancient civ by deus ex machina) but official just has a nicer, crispier feel.

<BuildingInfo>
<BuildingClass>BUILDINGCLASS_PYRAMID</BuildingClass>
<Type>BUILDING_PYRAMID</Type>
<SpecialBuildingType>NONE</SpecialBuildingType>
<Description>TXT_KEY_BUILDING_PYRAMID</Description>
<Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_BUILDING_PYRAMID_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
<Strategy>TXT_KEY_BUILDING_PYRAMID_STRATEGY</Strategy>
<Advisor>ADVISOR_ECONOMY</Advisor>
<ArtDefineTag>ART_DEF_BUILDING_PYRAMID</ArtDefineTag>
<MovieDefineTag>ART_DEF_MOVIE_PYRAMIDS</MovieDefineTag>
<HolyCity>NONE</HolyCity>
<ReligionType>NONE</ReligionType>
<StateReligion>NONE</StateReligion>
<bStateReligion>0</bStateReligion>
<PrereqReligion>NONE</PrereqReligion>
<PrereqCorporation>NONE</PrereqCorporation>
<FoundsCorporation>NONE</FoundsCorporation>
<GlobalReligionCommerce>NONE</GlobalReligionCommerce>
<GlobalCorporationCommerce>NONE</GlobalCorporationCommerce>
<VictoryPrereq>NONE</VictoryPrereq>
<FreeStartEra>NONE</FreeStartEra>
<MaxStartEra>ERA_CLASSICAL</MaxStartEra>
<ObsoleteTech>NONE</ObsoleteTech>
<PrereqTech>TECH_MASONRY</PrereqTech>
<TechTypes/>
<Bonus>NONE</Bonus>
<PrereqBonuses/>
<ProductionTraits/>
<HappinessTraits>
<HappinessTrait>
<HappinessTraitType>TRAIT_SPIRITUAL</HappinessTraitType>
<iHappinessTrait>5</iHappinessTrait>
</HappinessTrait>
</HappinessTraits>
<NoBonus>NONE</NoBonus>
<PowerBonus>NONE</PowerBonus>
<FreeBonus>NONE</FreeBonus>
<iNumFreeBonuses>0</iNumFreeBonuses>
<FreeBuilding>BUILDINGCLASS_SACRIFICIAL_ALTAR</FreeBuilding>
<FreePromotion>NONE</FreePromotion>
<CivicOption/>
<GreatPeopleUnitClass>UNITCLASS_ENGINEER</GreatPeopleUnitClass>
<iGreatPeopleRateChange>2</iGreatPeopleRateChange>
<iHurryAngerModifier>0</iHurryAngerModifier>
<bBorderObstacle>0</bBorderObstacle>
<bTeamShare>1</bTeamShare>
<bWater>0</bWater>
<bRiver>0</bRiver>
<bPower>0</bPower>
<bDirtyPower>0</bDirtyPower>
<bAreaCleanPower>0</bAreaCleanPower>
<DiploVoteType>NONE</DiploVoteType>
<bForceTeamVoteEligible>0</bForceTeamVoteEligible>
<bCapital>0</bCapital>
<bGovernmentCenter>0</bGovernmentCenter>
<bGoldenAge>0</bGoldenAge>
<bAllowsNukes>0</bAllowsNukes>
<bMapCentering>0</bMapCentering>
<bNoUnhappiness>0</bNoUnhappiness>
<bNoUnhealthyPopulation>0</bNoUnhealthyPopulation>
<bBuildingOnlyHealthy>0</bBuildingOnlyHealthy>
<bNeverCapture>0</bNeverCapture>
<bNukeImmune>1</bNukeImmune>
<bPrereqReligion>0</bPrereqReligion>
<bCenterInCity>0</bCenterInCity>
<iAIWeight>0</iAIWeight>
<iCost>500</iCost>
<iHurryCostModifier>100</iHurryCostModifier>
<iAdvancedStartCost>-1</iAdvancedStartCost>
<iAdvancedStartCostIncrease>0</iAdvancedStartCostIncrease>
<iMinAreaSize>-1</iMinAreaSize>
<iConquestProb>100</iConquestProb>
<iCitiesPrereq>0</iCitiesPrereq>
<iTeamsPrereq>0</iTeamsPrereq>
<iLevelPrereq>0</iLevelPrereq>
<iMinLatitude>0</iMinLatitude>
<iMaxLatitude>90</iMaxLatitude>
<iGreatPeopleRateModifier>0</iGreatPeopleRateModifier>
<iGreatGeneralRateModifier>0</iGreatGeneralRateModifier>
<iDomesticGreatGeneralRateModifier>0</iDomesticGreatGeneralRateModifier>
<iGlobalGreatPeopleRateModifier>0</iGlobalGreatPeopleRateModifier>
<iAnarchyModifier>-50</iAnarchyModifier>
<iGoldenAgeModifier>50</iGoldenAgeModifier>
<iGlobalHurryModifier>0</iGlobalHurryModifier>
<iExperience>0</iExperience>
<iGlobalExperience>0</iGlobalExperience>
<iFoodKept>0</iFoodKept>
<iAirlift>0</iAirlift>
<iAirModifier>0</iAirModifier>
<iAirUnitCapacity>0</iAirUnitCapacity>
<iNukeModifier>0</iNukeModifier>
<iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
<iFreeSpecialist>0</iFreeSpecialist>
<iAreaFreeSpecialist>0</iAreaFreeSpecialist>
<iGlobalFreeSpecialist>0</iGlobalFreeSpecialist>
<iMaintenanceModifier>0</iMaintenanceModifier>
<iWarWearinessModifier>0</iWarWearinessModifier>
<iGlobalWarWearinessModifier>0</iGlobalWarWearinessModifier>
<iEnemyWarWearinessModifier>0</iEnemyWarWearinessModifier>
<iHealRateChange>0</iHealRateChange>
<iHealth>0</iHealth>
<iAreaHealth>0</iAreaHealth>
<iGlobalHealth>0</iGlobalHealth>
<iHappiness>0</iHappiness>
<iAreaHappiness>0</iAreaHappiness>
<iGlobalHappiness>0</iGlobalHappiness>
<iStateReligionHappiness>0</iStateReligionHappiness>
<iWorkerSpeedModifier>0</iWorkerSpeedModifier>
<iMilitaryProductionModifier>0</iMilitaryProductionModifier>
<iSpaceProductionModifier>0</iSpaceProductionModifier>
<iGlobalSpaceProductionModifier>0</iGlobalSpaceProductionModifier>
<iTradeRoutes>0</iTradeRoutes>
<iCoastalTradeRoutes>0</iCoastalTradeRoutes>
<iGlobalTradeRoutes>0</iGlobalTradeRoutes>
<iTradeRouteModifier>0</iTradeRouteModifier>
<iForeignTradeRouteModifier>0</iForeignTradeRouteModifier>
<iGlobalPopulationChange>0</iGlobalPopulationChange>
<iFreeTechs>0</iFreeTechs>
<iDefense>0</iDefense>
<iBombardDefense>0</iBombardDefense>
<iAllCityDefense>0</iAllCityDefense>
<iEspionageDefense>0</iEspionageDefense>
<iAsset>12</iAsset>
<iPower>0</iPower>
<fVisibilityPriority>100.0</fVisibilityPriority>
<SeaPlotYieldChanges/>
<RiverPlotYieldChanges/>
<GlobalSeaPlotYieldChanges/>
<YieldChanges/>
<CommerceChanges/>
<ObsoleteSafeCommerceChanges>
<iCommerce>0</iCommerce>
<iCommerce>0</iCommerce>
<iCommerce>6</iCommerce>
</ObsoleteSafeCommerceChanges>
<CommerceChangeDoubleTimes>
<iCommerce>0</iCommerce>
<iCommerce>0</iCommerce>
<iCommerce>1000</iCommerce>
</CommerceChangeDoubleTimes>
<CommerceModifiers/>
<GlobalCommerceModifiers/>
<SpecialistExtraCommerces/>
<StateReligionCommerces/>
<CommerceHappinesses/>
<ReligionChanges/>
<SpecialistCounts/>
<FreeSpecialistCounts/>
<CommerceFlexibles/>
<CommerceChangeOriginalOwners>
<bCommerceChangeOriginalOwner>0</bCommerceChangeOriginalOwner>
<bCommerceChangeOriginalOwner>0</bCommerceChangeOriginalOwner>
<bCommerceChangeOriginalOwner>1</bCommerceChangeOriginalOwner>
</CommerceChangeOriginalOwners>
<ConstructSound>AS2D_BUILD_PYRAMID</ConstructSound>
<BonusHealthChanges/>
<BonusHappinessChanges/>
<BonusProductionModifiers>
<BonusProductionModifier>
<BonusType>BONUS_STONE</BonusType>
<iProductonModifier>100</iProductonModifier>
</BonusProductionModifier>
</BonusProductionModifiers>
<UnitCombatFreeExperiences/>
<DomainFreeExperiences/>
<DomainProductionModifiers/>
<BuildingHappinessChanges/>
<PrereqBuildingClasses/>
<BuildingClassNeededs>
<BuildingClassNeeded>
<BuildingClassType>BUILDINGCLASS_PALACE</BuildingClassType>
<bNeededInCity>1</bNeededInCity>
</BuildingClassNeeded>
</BuildingClassNeededs>
<SpecialistYieldChanges/>
<BonusYieldModifiers/>
<ImprovementFreeSpecialists/>
<Flavors/>
<HotKey/>
<bAltDown>0</bAltDown>
<bShiftDown>0</bShiftDown>
<bCtrlDown>0</bCtrlDown>
<iHotKeyPriority>0</iHotKeyPriority>
</BuildingInfo>

I'm not sure what the marco polo ought to do but it's an even worse agent of wild imbalance than the Pyramids are, in RoM.

What about the Marco Polo embassy revealing the entire world map ala Satellites do later, and adding one trade route per city?

What about it adding one free Luxury resource? ( preferably through a menu ala the free techs menu you get from liberalism or the oracle)

Or based on the pedia description how about..

Starts a Golden Age

+1 trade routes per city

+25% foreign trade route yield.



<BuildingInfo>
<BuildingClass>BUILDINGCLASS_MARCO_POLO</BuildingClass>
<Type>BUILDING_MARCO_POLO</Type>
<SpecialBuildingType>NONE</SpecialBuildingType>
<Description>TXT_KEY_BUILDING_MARCO_POLO</Description>
<Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_BUILDING_MARCO_POLO_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
<Strategy>TXT_KEY_BUILDING_MARCO_POLO_STRATEGY</Strategy>
<Advisor>ADVISOR_ECONOMY</Advisor>
<ArtDefineTag>ART_DEF_BUILDING_MARCO_POLO</ArtDefineTag>
<MovieDefineTag>NONE</MovieDefineTag>
<HolyCity>NONE</HolyCity>
<ReligionType>NONE</ReligionType>
<StateReligion>NONE</StateReligion>
<bStateReligion>0</bStateReligion>
<PrereqReligion>NONE</PrereqReligion>
<PrereqCorporation>NONE</PrereqCorporation>
<FoundsCorporation>NONE</FoundsCorporation>
<GlobalReligionCommerce>NONE</GlobalReligionCommerce>
<GlobalCorporationCommerce>NONE</GlobalCorporationCommerce>
<VictoryPrereq>NONE</VictoryPrereq>
<FreeStartEra>NONE</FreeStartEra>
<MaxStartEra>ERA_RENAISSANCE</MaxStartEra>
<ObsoleteTech>TECH_UTOPIA</ObsoleteTech>
<PrereqTech>TECH_OPTICS</PrereqTech>
<TechTypes/>
<Bonus>NONE</Bonus>
<PrereqBonuses/>
<ProductionTraits/>
<HappinessTraits/>
<NoBonus>NONE</NoBonus>
<PowerBonus>NONE</PowerBonus>
<FreeBonus>NONE</FreeBonus>
<iNumFreeBonuses>0</iNumFreeBonuses>
<FreeBuilding>NONE</FreeBuilding>
<FreePromotion>NONE</FreePromotion>
<CivicOption>NONE</CivicOption>
<GreatPeopleUnitClass>UNITCLASS_MERCHANT</GreatPeopleUnitClass>
<iGreatPeopleRateChange>1</iGreatPeopleRateChange>
<iHurryAngerModifier>0</iHurryAngerModifier>
<bBorderObstacle>0</bBorderObstacle>
<bTeamShare>1</bTeamShare>
<bWater>0</bWater>
<bRiver>0</bRiver>
<bPower>0</bPower>
<bDirtyPower>0</bDirtyPower>
<bAreaCleanPower>0</bAreaCleanPower>
<DiploVoteType>NONE</DiploVoteType>
<bForceTeamVoteEligible>0</bForceTeamVoteEligible>
<bCapital>0</bCapital>
<bGovernmentCenter>0</bGovernmentCenter>
<bGoldenAge>1</bGoldenAge>
<bAllowsNukes>0</bAllowsNukes>
<bMapCentering>0</bMapCentering>
<bNoUnhappiness>0</bNoUnhappiness>
<bNoUnhealthyPopulation>0</bNoUnhealthyPopulation>
<bBuildingOnlyHealthy>0</bBuildingOnlyHealthy>
<bNeverCapture>0</bNeverCapture>
<bNukeImmune>1</bNukeImmune>
<bPrereqReligion>0</bPrereqReligion>
<bCenterInCity>0</bCenterInCity>
<iAIWeight>0</iAIWeight>
<iCost>770</iCost>
<iHurryCostModifier>100</iHurryCostModifier>
<iAdvancedStartCost>-1</iAdvancedStartCost>
<iAdvancedStartCostIncrease>0</iAdvancedStartCostIncrease>
<iMinAreaSize>-1</iMinAreaSize>
<iConquestProb>100</iConquestProb>
<iCitiesPrereq>0</iCitiesPrereq>
<iTeamsPrereq>0</iTeamsPrereq>
<iLevelPrereq>0</iLevelPrereq>
<iMinLatitude>0</iMinLatitude>
<iMaxLatitude>90</iMaxLatitude>
<iGreatPeopleRateModifier>0</iGreatPeopleRateModifier>
<iGreatGeneralRateModifier>0</iGreatGeneralRateModifier>
<iDomesticGreatGeneralRateModifier>0</iDomesticGreatGeneralRateModifier>
<iGlobalGreatPeopleRateModifier>0</iGlobalGreatPeopleRateModifier>
<iAnarchyModifier>0</iAnarchyModifier>
<iGoldenAgeModifier>0</iGoldenAgeModifier>
<iGlobalHurryModifier>0</iGlobalHurryModifier>
<iExperience>0</iExperience>
<iGlobalExperience>0</iGlobalExperience>
<iFoodKept>0</iFoodKept>
<iAirlift>0</iAirlift>
<iAirModifier>0</iAirModifier>
<iAirUnitCapacity>0</iAirUnitCapacity>
<iNukeModifier>0</iNukeModifier>
<iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
<iFreeSpecialist>0</iFreeSpecialist>
<iAreaFreeSpecialist>0</iAreaFreeSpecialist>
<iGlobalFreeSpecialist>0</iGlobalFreeSpecialist>
<iMaintenanceModifier>0</iMaintenanceModifier>
<iWarWearinessModifier>0</iWarWearinessModifier>
<iGlobalWarWearinessModifier>0</iGlobalWarWearinessModifier>
<iEnemyWarWearinessModifier>0</iEnemyWarWearinessModifier>
<iHealRateChange>0</iHealRateChange>
<iHealth>0</iHealth>
<iAreaHealth>0</iAreaHealth>
<iGlobalHealth>0</iGlobalHealth>
<iHappiness>0</iHappiness>
<iAreaHappiness>0</iAreaHappiness>
<iGlobalHappiness>0</iGlobalHappiness>
<iStateReligionHappiness>0</iStateReligionHappiness>
<iWorkerSpeedModifier>0</iWorkerSpeedModifier>
<iMilitaryProductionModifier>0</iMilitaryProductionModifier>
<iSpaceProductionModifier>0</iSpaceProductionModifier>
<iGlobalSpaceProductionModifier>0</iGlobalSpaceProductionModifier>
<iTradeRoutes>0</iTradeRoutes>
<iCoastalTradeRoutes>0</iCoastalTradeRoutes>
<iGlobalTradeRoutes>1</iGlobalTradeRoutes>
<iTradeRouteModifier>0</iTradeRouteModifier>
<iForeignTradeRouteModifier>25</iForeignTradeRouteModifier>
<iGlobalPopulationChange>0</iGlobalPopulationChange>
<iFreeTechs>0</iFreeTechs>
<iDefense>0</iDefense>
<iBombardDefense>0</iBombardDefense>
<iAllCityDefense>0</iAllCityDefense>
<iEspionageDefense>0</iEspionageDefense>
<iAsset>12</iAsset>
<iPower>0</iPower>
<fVisibilityPriority>100.0</fVisibilityPriority>
<SeaPlotYieldChanges/>
<RiverPlotYieldChanges/>
<GlobalSeaPlotYieldChanges/>
<YieldChanges/>
<YieldModifiers/>
<CommerceChanges/>
<ObsoleteSafeCommerceChanges>
<iCommerce>0</iCommerce>
<iCommerce>0</iCommerce>
<iCommerce>2</iCommerce>
</ObsoleteSafeCommerceChanges>
<CommerceChangeDoubleTimes>
<iCommerce>0</iCommerce>
<iCommerce>0</iCommerce>
<iCommerce>1000</iCommerce>
</CommerceChangeDoubleTimes>
<CommerceModifiers/>
<GlobalCommerceModifiers/>
<SpecialistExtraCommerces/>
<StateReligionCommerces/>
<CommerceHappinesses/>
<ReligionChanges/>
<SpecialistCounts/>
<FreeSpecialistCounts/>
<CommerceFlexibles/>
<CommerceChangeOriginalOwners>
<bCommerceChangeOriginalOwner>0</bCommerceChangeOriginalOwner>
<bCommerceChangeOriginalOwner>0</bCommerceChangeOriginalOwner>
<bCommerceChangeOriginalOwner>1</bCommerceChangeOriginalOwner>
</CommerceChangeOriginalOwners>
<ConstructSound/>
<BonusHealthChanges/>
<BonusHappinessChanges/>
<BonusProductionModifiers/>
<UnitCombatFreeExperiences/>
<DomainFreeExperiences/>
<DomainProductionModifiers/>
<BuildingHappinessChanges/>
<PrereqBuildingClasses/>
<BuildingClassNeededs/>
<SpecialistYieldChanges/>
<BonusYieldModifiers/>
<ImprovementFreeSpecialists/>
<Flavors>
<Flavor>
<FlavorType>FLAVOR_GOLD</FlavorType>
<iFlavor>10</iFlavor>
</Flavor>
</Flavors>
<HotKey/>
<bAltDown>0</bAltDown>
<bShiftDown>0</bShiftDown>
<bCtrlDown>0</bCtrlDown>
<iHotKeyPriority>0</iHotKeyPriority>
</BuildingInfo>

A lesser ( but significant.. just lesser because it comes later) culprit of savage imbalance causing is the Adam Smith trading company. Like the massive effect the old Einstein Lab had on science, adding bonus Gold for every specialist when you have all these +free specialist and +unlimited specialist civics can really destroy any competitiveness in a game.

I always liked Civ 2's Pyramids, that gave every city a granary. But I do think we should have a wonder that gives all gvmnt civics. Maybe balance the civic costs a bit more, and put the wonder a little further up the tree then just the first handful of techs.. (shrugs)

I agree that they both need to be balanced better. Corporatism/Global Market, and to a lesser degree, Corporatism/Free Market practically ensure victory.

One wonder that does need some boosts, though, would be Pont Du Gard. Currently, it's just a glorified Hanging Gardens that adds a very paltry +1 health bonus at a ridiculous hammer cost. There has to be something that can be added to that.

Corporatism and Global Market shouldn't be nearly as powerful as they are.

If people genuinely had choices of setups that were situationally rather than universally beneficial, then the ability to turn yourself up to late game civics would be merely useful rather than completely game dominating as is currently the case.

And yeah, Pont Du Gard is a joke. As things currently stand, Health bonuses just don't even really matter in the face of the huge amounts of food bonuses and costs. Even if somehow you got a health penalty (which I don't even know how you would manage in the current version of the game), it would still pale in comparison to any of a number of +/-5% food modifiers that the game hands out like candy. A Size 20 city requires 60 food just to stagnate, +5% is +3 food. A +1 Health bonus is at best just 1 food.

There is just no way that I'm going to spend a huge pile of Hammers, let alone a permanent maintenance adjustment for a Health bonus of any kind. The food bonuses should be shifted out of Global Market and into stuff like Sewage Systems. I really don't like the fact that I can and do make size 26 cities without access to water or sewage treatment and the game doesn't punish me or even bat an eye.

-Frank

the +25% global wealth from free market's pretty powerful too.

Free Market should perhaps have a +1 unhappiness per corporation in a city or something, to represent conglomerates growing out of control in an unregulated system :P