One thing I like about history is that every day you can read something new and learn new things. While I've been making Rise of Mankind I've read quite a lot about different civilizations and what kind of architecture they had. Architecture is one of my interests when I'm designing Wonders for this mod and I try to add some of those historical places - I think you can see this now from the mod itself. I've tried to tie all those new Wonders somehow to their historical purpose, like Edinburgh's Castle was really used for government's administration so I made it act like government center in the mod.

But before I get too far to sidetracks, I'll get to the point. What architectural sites do you think should be used as Great / National Wonders in this mod? If you know any, please post about them in this thread. :) Don't try to offer any modern day buildings, I'm well aware of them and most likely I won't consider them to be really yet "wonders". I prefer wonders to be from different cultures, the more forgotten it already is the better - we tend to see only the most popular sites in Civ games, I want to add some more forgotten places...

Few "Wonders" that have I've found during my reading but not yet in the mod:
Angkor Thom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angkor_Thom), Bayon stone faces

Royal Palace of Meknes in Morocco, built by Moulay Ismael during renaissance and bigger than Versailles - built by european slaves that Moulay's Barbary Pirates captured during their raids as far as from Iceland. Has been said to have had 1 million slaves, huge harem (500 women), had 12000 horses...

Alcatraz, first built to be military garrison and coastal batteries but later converted to be a prison.


For a good list of sites, see UNESCO's World Heritage List (http://whc.unesco.org/en/list).

What architectural sites do you think should be used as Great / National Wonders in this mod? If you know any, please post about them in this thread. :) Don't try to offer any modern day buildings, I'm well aware of them and most likely I won't consider them to be really yet "wonders". I prefer wonders to be from different cultures, the more forgotten it already is the better - we tend to see only the most popular sites in Civ games, I want to add some more forgotten places...
when you say forgotten, you mean forgotten over time, but could that also mean places that eventually turned into myths that might have existed, or places that were outright fictional or places that could've been either and no one knows? i.e. Ark of the Covenant, you could put a stone entrance into the ground just outside the city that has it

Forgotten as in forgotten civilizations and their architecture - for example Chavin de Huantar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chavin_de_Huantar) is one such place. Little is known about people who lived there but they built very complex and interesting temple sites.

You mentioned the Ark of the Covenent - there are claims that it's currently hold in Ethiopian christian temple.. saw some time ago documentary about this, unverified information of course since no-one except the one guardian monk is allowed to see it.

Another such example could be Eldorado, the city of gold. Many have searched for it but no-one has found it - it's pure myth now. Just like Atlantis or Shangri-La are.

I try to stay away from myths even though they intrigue me and I like to add things which have some concrete evidence about their existence.

About mythical and semi-mythical places... How about the good old Finnish Pohjola? The great gate and the mansion hall (compared even to the halls of Valhalla...)

Truely sparks imagination, what if there really was a great kingdom in Finland in the early iron age? Surely the history of Fennoscandia should be rewritten. ;)

For stone age how about the Temple builders of Malta - 70+ large temples plus some which had underground shrines. I know they were actually a traiding nation, a link between Africa and Europe, with far to much wealth and nothing to spend it on.

Why not some economic wonders -the stone carvers of that "mini-mesopotamia" who traded one stone goblet for donkey loads of food. Trading between all the old cive from Indus to Tigrus and beyond.

The ivory carvers of the "Oasis People" from somewhere east of the Caspian Sea.

meh, they should be obsolete pretty quickly then, cause the game is already unbalanced with too much gold and science income.

the +% anything ( wealth, research, etc) wonders need to be tossed completely.

Instead make these wonders add some free specialists, ala the great library.

Likewise, many wonders really ought to require a state religion, or if possible, require that "No religion" is the state religion.

Further, much like the Forbidden Palace, Supreme Court etc, a lot of wonders should require amount X of building exist throughout your empire.


IF possible and best in addition to options mentioned above, wonders should have GOLD costs in addition to hammer costs. Most of these giant vanity projects drove their builder empires to or near bankruptcy.

Wonders really bring critical imbalances to rom as they are right now and always cause a technological singularity to occur early in the game.

As for wonders that could be in, what about the burial tomb of the first emperor of china? the one with all the terracotta soldiers.

http://www.24hourmuseum.org.uk/exh_gfx_en/ART50545.html

the +% anything ( wealth, research, etc) wonders need to be tossed completely.

Instead make these wonders add some free specialists, ala the great library.

Likewise, many wonders really ought to require a state religion, or if possible, require that "No religion" is the state religion.

Further, much like the Forbidden Palace, Supreme Court etc, a lot of wonders should require amount X of building exist throughout your empire.


IF possible and best in addition to options mentioned above, wonders should have GOLD costs in addition to hammer costs. Most of these giant vanity projects drove their builder empires to or near bankruptcy.

Good idea, ill do that to the wonders in my addon... the no state religion and gold cost... hmm

Right. Why would the Pyramids have any effect on the population in a Secularism-running faithless society?

I'm sure the Christo Redentor wouldnt have much of a function in my dystopian arcology-dwelling corporatism-secularism cybersociety either.

or why would Copernicus's observatory ever work in a civ with a state religion? He was almost jailed by the church for his heresies!

meh, they should be obsolete pretty quickly then, cause the game is already unbalanced with too much gold and science income.

I don't understand this comment! Zappara was asking for ideas for historical wonders and I pointed out three economic ones from the stone age. No mention yet has been made about what they do.

But just so you can have something concrete to argue against I would think the wonders would be something like:-

"Temple Builders of Malta" +1 towards great prophet, +1 culture and maybe +1 happy in all cities.

"Carvers of the Oasis" requires ivory produces two idols. Idols give +1 happy or maybe a cost reduction for some buildings. This gives you something to trade.

"Stone Carvers of ..." - produces two or three goblets. Goblets give +1 health or something. As an aside when ancient Egypt started producing their own stone bowls etc they also invented tools with replaceable and interchangeable parts.

Right. Why would the Pyramids have any effect on the population in a Secularism-running faithless society?

I'm sure the Christo Redentor wouldnt have much of a function in my dystopian arcology-dwelling corporatism-secularism cybersociety either.

or why would Copernicus's observatory ever work in a civ with a state religion? He was almost jailed by the church for his heresies!

For the affect of the pyramids you just have to look at modern New York. The rediscovery of ancient Egypt had a major influence on Europe civilisations from the Napolieon ear onwards. Mind you they had huge impacts on the classical civs as well. Not to mention tourism throughout the ages.

I think that you could put the main Government seat as the Palace of each nation:
- Americans: The White House
- England: House of Parliament
- Germany: Bundestag
- China: I'd suggest the Forbidden City, but as it is already picked as a national wonder...
- Spain: El Escorial Palace or the Congreso de los Diputados (= House of Representatives)
- France: The Palace of L'Elyseé (where the President of the French Republic lives)
- Babilonia: NFI, but maybe the Hanging Gardens (it's funny to see that so many wonders could be thought to be where the Government seat is...)
Anyway, tell me your opinion on this.

I think that you could put the main Government seat as the Palace of each nation:
- Americans: The White House
- England: House of Parliament
- Germany: Bundestag
- China: I'd suggest the Forbidden City, but as it is already picked as a national wonder...
- Spain: El Escorial Palace or the Congreso de los Diputados (= House of Representatives)
- France: The Palace of L'Elyseé (where the President of the French Republic lives)
- Babilonia: NFI, but maybe the Hanging Gardens (it's funny to see that so many wonders could be thought to be where the Government seat is...)
Anyway, tell me your opinion on this.

I've always thought flavouring the palace for every civ would be awesome. The obvious problems of course, some civs change their seat of government throughout history, whereas others didn't have one/we have no damn idea.

New Zealand = Beehive
Persia = Palace of Apadama
Mycenae = ...Mycenae

Of course, in Mycenae's case, you just have to make the palace look like Mycenae (fortified acropolis)

For stone age how about the Temple builders of Malta - 70+ large temples plus some which had underground shrines. I know they were actually a traiding nation, a link between Africa and Europe, with far to much wealth and nothing to spend it on.

Why not some economic wonders -the stone carvers of that "mini-mesopotamia" who traded one stone goblet for donkey loads of food. Trading between all the old cive from Indus to Tigrus and beyond.

The ivory carvers of the "Oasis People" from somewhere east of the Caspian Sea.Those temples are fascinating.. Quote from one site:

"They are the oldest standing stone structures which remain to us from ancient times. The temples date from 4000 - 2500 BC. They are older than Stonehenge, older than the Pyramids. Little is known about the people who built these megalithic temples. The original inhabitants of the Maltese Islands probably crossed over by sea from Sicily, which lies 58 miles to the north, sometime before 5000 BC. The temple builders were farmers who grew cereals and raised domestic livestock. They worshipped a mother goddess whose type is known from early statuettes found scattered around the Mediterranean. Similar statues are also found on Malta, several being of uniquely large size. We know from physical evidence that worship in the Malta temples included animal sacrifice; beyond this, little is known about the rites and rituals that took place there. Although the temples are large in overall extent, the interior chambers do not have enough room to hold more than a few people at one time. Therefore public worship in large groups, as practiced in typical churches and temples today, would not have been possible. It is likely that the priests and priestesses carried out rites inside the temples, and the public was not invited."

and from other site about the temple builders:

"It seems that around 5000 B.C. the islands' first inhabitants made their way across the sea from Malta's nearest neighbour, Sicily, ninety kilometres to the north. They were farmers, growing barley and wheat and bringing with them cattle, goats, sheep and pigs. They appear to have been a remarkably peaceful people, fearing no threat from each other or from the outside world. They lived in caves and mudbrick houses without a trace of any kind of fortification. The only things found from this period even resembling a weapon are two tiny arrowheads.

They also appear to have been unusually healthy with strong bones and teeth. Rather touchingly a few of them had bunions and one small child was buried with a puppy. It could be that only the privileged few were buried here, but several skeletons seem to indicate otherwise. These were men with particularly thick, strong limbs and distinctively craggy faces. "

So what kind of wonder we could get out of this.. few ideas that swirl in my head:
- tech requirement stone tools, earliest wonder
- can be built in coastal cities (Malta is island)
- bonus related to food/health + animal/stone resources
- possibly extra happiness
- great person: prophet
- obsolete before medieval age
- Wonder name??? Temple builders of Malta doesn't sound right to me...

- Wonder name??? Temple builders of Malta doesn't sound right to me...
(don't know why you threw in the word builders there, we're talking about a structure(s), not people;))
-Maltan Temples
-Temples of Malta

...
- Wonder name??? Temple builders of Malta doesn't sound right to me...

The name seems to be "Temples of Tarxian" according to various archaeological mags I have read.

hi i used to live in malta i love the island (i'm thai) now i have moved to usa. the temple name should be ggantia (yes double G) it is in the the smaller island (called gozo)

i also would like to recommend the ban chiang village it is the first place in the world to casting bronze (in udon thani province, thailand)

thank for the great mod zap

I have been toying with a Wonder which is really a technology but does not really fit in with Civ techs. Namely "The Golden Fleece".

There is a school of thought that the golden fleece was actually a means of getting gold from rivers. You put your newly cut fleece in a river and then come back latter and combe the cold out of it.

Having it as a wonder means that only one civ gets the idea.

Suggest it becomes available with ANIMAL HUSBANDRY and MINING and obsolete about GLASSBLOWING or CURRENCY.

Effects: +1 trade in all river tiles. Building cost reduced by having sheep. Must be built on river.

This might be a little too obscure to make a Wonder, but still...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suomenlinna

It's a coastal fortress built by the swedish in Finland during their reign. It was apparently quite modern during it's time.

This might be a good National Wonder or maybe even a "true" Wonder. Maybe it's effects could include: War-weariness to enemies & increased chance of a Great Engineer.

Does this seem like a relevant thing or a too obscure thing?

Well, there's the Kamakura Buddha (figure double production speed with copper, obviously requires Buddhism as state religion, +2 Prophet, +(x) trade routes to reflect pilgrimages, available with Machinery and obsolete with Industrialism or so).

The Scaean Gate of Troy - +25% defense and -50% bombard, +1 trade route, gives engineers, available with Masonry, goes away at Gunpowder, obviously requires Walls and builds faster with Stone. Hey, if you're going to include Mycenae as a civilization, why not include the Scaean Gate, said to be one of the two guarantees of Troy's continued survival (as long as the lintel was in place, all was well; unfortunately, certain wooden horses were slightly too tall for the gate with the lintel in place)?

The Cloaca Maxima - +2 Health in all cities, requires Sewer System in city(ies), available with Sanitation. Not sure you could say it ever obsolesces, since Rome fell way before its capacity was exceeded.

The Bamyan Buddha statues - unsure of exact benefits from this one, but it's worth mentioning, since they were demolished within the lives of everyone here.

Pretty much every country has a national royal burial site - St.-Denis, Westminster, heck, even Roskilde could be counted as such. Would make sense as a national wonder, giving +1 towards Great Artist, possibly affecting war weariness, available with Masonry and going obsolete around Radio or so. Lest this be confused with the Pyramids in the case of Egypt, I'm thinking more along the lines of the Valley of the Kings with this - a royal burial ground rather than a monument to one man.

Ancient Wonders:
Labyrinth of Knossos - Requires Masonry, Slavery. Obsolete with Philosophy. Enables Sacrifice Cult civic, can sacrifice population for production in this city (no required civics), no healthiness penalty for Sacrifice Cult civic in all cities, +1 culture, +2 GP points for Great Prophet. Double production speed with Stone.

Ctesiphon Vault of Kasra - Requires Trade. Obsolete with Banking. +50% commerce in this city, can build Wealth, enables gold trading via diplomacy, +4 culture, +2 GP points for Great Merchant. Double production speed with Gold.

Codex Hammurabi - Requires Pottery. Obsolete with Feudalism. Enables Vassalage and Serfdom civics, can build Courthouse in all cities, +2 culture, +2 GP points for Great Spy.

Sweet Track - Requires The Wheel, Stone Tools. Obsolete with City Planning. Workers build roads 100% faster, +1 movement on roads, extra -25% anarchy length with National Courier System. Double production speed with Horses.

Classical Wonders:
Hadrian's Wall - Requires Iron Working, Military Training. No barbarians can enter cultural borders on this continent, +10% Great General emergence, cannot be built in same continent as Great Wall, city must be at least 10 squares away from capital. Double production speed with Stone.

Curia Hostilia (Roman Senate House) - Requires Democracy. Enables the Representation civic, +10% commerce in all cities, +4 culture, +2 GP points for Great Engineer. Double production speed with Marble.

Basilica Cistern - Requires Canal Systems, Requires Bath House, Palace, Obsolete with Steel. No unhealthiness in city, +2 GP points for Great Engineer, +4 culture.

Industrial Wonders:
Great Northern Railway - Requires Railroad. Obsolete with Automated Traffic. Workers build railroads 100% faster, +1 movement on railroads, +1 commerce on all railroad tiles, +2 GP points for Great Engineer.

Autobahn - Requires Motorized Transportation. Requires 6 cities with Paved Roads. Double production from Freight, double wealth from trade missions from Freight, +2 happiness in every city with connection to Oil, +2 GP points for Great Engineer.

Federal Reserve - Requires Industrialism, Labor Union. Requires Central Bank, Treasury. +100% commerce, +1 trade routes in all cities with Bureaucracy, +1 trade routes in all cities with Corporatism, +2 GP points for Great Merchant. Replaces Central Bank.

Gosbank - Requires Communism. Requires Central Bank, Treasury. +100% commerce. Following effects only applicable under State Property: can use wealth to finish production, corporations have effect with +25% maintenance costs (corps owned by government), Banks have no effect in all cities, +2 GP points for Great Spy. Replaces Central Bank. Cannot be built if Federal Reserve is built, and vice versa.

Modern Wonders:
World Trade Center - Requires Civil Engineering. Requires 6 cities with Skyscrapers. +1 trade routes in all cities, -25% cost to hurry production, +2 GP points for Great Merchant.

Chernobyl Power Station - Requires Nuclear Power. Requires Uranium and 6 cities with Nuclear Plants. No chance of meltdown from any Nuclear Plants, +5 hammers from Nuclear Plants, +2 GP points for Great Scientist.

Panama (or Suez) Canal - Requires Civil Engineering. Can only be built in a city connected to two bodies of water (isthmus). +3 trade routes, +2 GP points for Great Engineer.

Given that Chernobyl provided mankind with one of the two worst environmental disasters of human history by catastrophically failing, why would the Chernobyl wonder eliminate the possibility of a nuclear meltdown? That seems to me highly counterintuitive.

I do, however, think it kind of silly that the only 'environmentally friendly' power solution available in RoM is the Hoover Dam wonder (or whatever it's called). A) Hydroelectric power generation has a whole range of serious environmental consequences associated with it. B) A lot of research and development time and money has gone into safe non-nuclear and non-hydro power generation over the last 25 years or so. C) Several economic powerhouse nations are currently generating enormous percentages of their domestic power in new, eco-friendly ways (think Brazil, Finland, Germany).

So, although Zap asked for ancient wonders... might I suggest a Concentrated Solar Power World Wonder (or national wonder since it is something that many countries will end up with), linked to the Environmental Economics tech, and providing clean, non-nuclear power to all cities, etc.? Only makes sense since that is the direction research is headed at the moment.

As for older wonders...

I often feel that ancient Western Hemisphere cultures are woefully under-represented, and when designers toss a bone to the Native Americans, they invariable toss it to the civilizations of Central and South America more familiar in their technology and social structures to Europe.

So, here are some legitimate North American world wonders:

The Great Mounds of Cahokia: I believe they are generally considered to be the largest earth-work structures ever built by any culture, anywhere. Cahokia was the capitol of the so-called Mississipean Culture, peaked around 1300 AD, and was the center of a trade network not dissimilar to the Silk Road of Eurasia. Archaeologists believe Cahokia in it's prime to rival the size and importance of cities like London (at the time of course), Paris, and Beijing.

The Serpent Mound: In Ohio, ancient, purportedly one of the only human constructions visible from space. Not sure anybody has any idea what it was actually for, but it's pretty cool nonetheless.

Great Eastern Chestnut Forests: Ok, bear with me on this one... Pollen records and historical observations by early European explorers indicate that the absolutely enormous mixed forests of what is now the Eastern U.S. and Canada were dominated by Chestnuts and other fruit or edible-nut bearing trees. Current scientific thinking is that the concentration of edible-matter trees (in many places reaching 90%+) required massive civilization wide expertise and manipulation... i.e., the forests as they were several hundred years were basically man-made or modified and maintained so as to provide sustenance and material to the native population. I.e., European explorers 'discovered' (and eventually destroyed through fire, imported disease, and land-clearing) what might be the largest pre-Green Revolution agricultural experiment ever conducted by humans. Could be a sort of ancient-era terraforming wonder ;) Building the Wonder would make each forest and/or jungle tile provide +2 food, +1gold, +1hammer or something similar. This would also increase geographical diversity in the mid and late game.

Given that Chernobyl provided mankind with one of the two worst environmental disasters of human history by catastrophically failing, why would the Chernobyl wonder eliminate the possibility of a nuclear meltdown? That seems to me highly counterintuitive.
I chose Chernobyl because it represents the engineers discovering what failed and preventing it.

I chose Chernobyl because it represents the engineers discovering what failed and preventing it.

In that vein, let's include the health benefits of Love Canal, or a Hindenburg wonder that provides bonus experience to airships. It just doesn't make any sense - the lessons learned from Chernobyl were primarily "Soviet quality control is terrible."

A serious implementation of the Hindenburg wonder, incidentally, would provide great engineers and a single intercontinental trade route.

I've been on the fence about suggesting it, but there are the Theodosian
Walls in Constantinople - behave a lot like Chichen Itza, at a later period, require High Walls. Of course, the facts that they behave like Chichen Itza and I've already suggested a defensive wonder in Asia Minor argues against it to me. I'm leery of creating "like (x) but in a different era!" wonders.

Honestly, the game is pretty saturated with wonders up to now, but pretty lean in the future. For Future Wonders...

Orbital Rings (same requirement conditions as Space Elevator) - Provide +2 Population, +2 Health, +2 hammer, food, science, and commerce in all cities, airlift everywhere if not already available. Reflects transition of much of the population to orbiting cities.

Brooklyn Bridge.

How about the Bayt al Hikma (House of Wisdom) in Abbasid Baghdad??

Or Gondishapur (same kind of building) of classical Persia?

Spirit Cave - Requires Agriculture. Obsolete with Bronze Working. +1 food in all tiles in city, can build farms in forests and jungles. Double production speed with Stone.

Jericho - Requires Ritualism, Agriculture, Weaving. Obsolete with Monotheism. Automatically grants Animal Husbandry, Naturopathy, Pottery and Mysticism technologies, +1 food from cottages. Double production speed with Sheep.

Machu Picchu - Requires Masonry. +1 food and +1 hammers from hills in all cities; can move onto, build improvements and work peak tiles, peak tiles give same bonuses as plains/hills tiles. Double production speed with Stone.

Sputnik - Requires Satellites. Requires Apollo Program. Reveals the world map with no fog of war. +2 GP points for Great Spy. Double production speed with Aluminum.

Instead of Chernobyl. pick some other big nuclear plant. I've honestly never heard of the Three Gorges Dam, so some unknown big nuclear plant would work. I just want to see some reason to use nuclear power plants. I said Chernobyl because it and Three Mile Island are the most famous.

Well, there's always Oak Ridge for the super-nuke plant. Kind of the alpha and omega of the American nuclear program. Of course, Oak Ridge has had its own share of problems, and it's not really a power plant.

D'oh! Somehow I forgot both St. George's in Ethiopia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_St._George,_Lalibela) and the Abu Simbel temple complex - could be an Egyptian religious Great Wonder.

Shouldn't Sputnik be before Apollo Program?

To simulate the agenda Soviets had with Chernobyl and other RBMK-type NPP's, how about a RBMK Nuclear Plant building: +50% production speed for nukes in that city, but an increased chance of meltdown? Or something like that. (The RBMK reactors were designed to be simple and cheap, and they could run with simplier uranium fuel instead of highly refined fuel types, producing weapon grade plutonium as a byproduct of the reaction, which could also be extracted from the core without stopping the reactor.) They were intended to be the backbone of the Soviet society of tomorrow... And Pripyat was to be the model city for the future nuclear utopia...

After considering it, could we in good conscience fold together Chichen Itza, the Theodosian Walls, the Scaean Gate, Maginot Line, et cetera, into a single National Wonder, National Fortification Effort or something less clunky?

After reading through this post, I had a idea. What about "Super wonders"? Wonders that require you to have other wonders? For example, the city that has the great wall, once you get to a much higher tech lvl you can "upgrade" it. Would make the choices of which wonders to get even more strategically important.