Ellestar, is it possible to code the stuff not written in Italic?
Things written in italic is stuff that is too imprecise yet to be programmed, but I thought I'd mention them anway, in case someone has ideas to concretize them.

Flowering Counter upon game startup

X = number of plots the map has, minus all plots Fungus can't ever possibly grow on, even not with a Counter of 100.
For each plot covered by Xenofungus or Sea Fungus or Hybrid Forest, 100/X is added to the Counter.

I'm not exactly sure about the X's and Z's, what's currently coded in the DLL.

Stuff that affects the Flowering Counter during the game

Z = number of plots the map has

1) For each tile xenofungus/sea fungus/hybrid forest (henceforth simply referred to as "fungus" unless specified otherwise) appears on, no matter how it happens (through natural growth, planting or fungal bloom), the Flowering Counter raises by 100/X. The other way around, for each fungus tile removed, the Counter decreases by 100/X.

2) For each Condenser worked by a base which has the Atmospheric Processor base facility, the Flowering Counter decreases by Y/Z each turn. What Y should be I can only tell through experimenting (some number much smaller than 100 of course). May I therefore suggest, for easier modding, to make a new define in GlobalDefines.xml for Y?

3) Use of a weapon of mass destruction - nuclear weapons and planet busters - increases the Flowering Counter. Rather vague as we don't even have planet busters defined yet.

4) building certain buildings related to moving towards Transcendence gives a one-time increase in the Flowering Counter

5) Researching the Terraforming tech gives a decrease to the Counter.

6) Researching the Eudaimonia tech gives an increase to the Counter??

7) The more Fungal Towers, the higher the Flowering Counter?

8) For each Transcend Great Person born, the Flowering Counter increases somewhat.

9) Melt Polar Caps/Launch Solar Shade Planetary Council voting options which directly or indirectly lower/increase the Flowering Counter[/i]

Stuff that the Flowering Counter affects

1) an XML tag under Promotions which gives a combat strength percentage bonus equal to the Flowering Counter. (precise bonus all subject to testing of course)

2) A minimum Flowering Counter level (suggestion to try out: 30) should be reached before randomly spawned native life can enter factional borders. Once this level has been reached native life can always move into cultural borders, even if the counter later drops under again.

3) Farms should upgrade to Farm->Outpost->Settlement(->Human Zone)->Eden. The lower the Flowering Counter, the faster they should upgrade. Some formula needed which leads to an absolute stop of growth at Counter 100, but still makes it take some turns for these improvements to grow at Counter 0.
Possible implementation:
int CvPlayer::getImprovementUpgradeRate() const
{
int iRate;

iRate = 1; // XXX

iRate *= std::max(0, (getImprovementUpgradeRateModifier() + 100));
iRate /= 100;

return iRate;
}

iRate is (100 + improvementupgraderatemodifier - 2*Flowering Counter)/100, with of course an assurance the rate is minimum zero.

Since the Terraformed Ecology civic gives +100 ImprovementUpgradeRateModifier, this would mean Farms don't upgrade at all for them at Flowering Counter level 100, and that it would be beneficial for Terraformers to get the Counter as low as possible.

4) There is a minimum Counter level C before Fungus can grow into Highlands at all through natural <iGrowth> (so seperate from Fungal Blooms).

5) A minimum Counter level E should be reached before Fungus can grow inside factional territory.

6) Standard Civ4 rules are that features can only grow into empty tiles. I'd like to deviate from that in three cases.
a) as in SMAC, forests (not hybrid forests) should be able to grow over fungus (not hybrid forests). At a lower probability than growing into empty tiles though.
For Planetfall, I'd also like Planetmind to return the favour though. :evilgrin: Therefore:
b) Provided the Counter is above a certain minimum level F, fungus can grow over forests.
c) Provided the Counter is above a certain minimum level G, fungus can grow over (Monsoon) Jungle.

7) The higher the Flowering Counter, the more diplomatic polarization between Hybrid and Terraformed ecologists.

I'm thinking the following might not be such a good idea anymore:

8) Only farms on Highlands should upgrade if the conditions under 3) are met. Farms on Lowlands should have a maximum Counter A allowed above which they don't grow at all.

9) The <iGrowth> tag of all fungus features should be affected by the Flowering Counter. At Counter 0 growth should be zero. Not sure what formula to use.

10) Fungus <iGrowth> should also always be affected by the elevation level of the plot to grow into. Chance for growth in Highlands is always smaller than chance for growth in Lowlands and water terrains.

11) At very low Counter levels, forest growth should be increased. No difference at medium or high Counter levels though.


To provide the big picture, what I'm hoping for with all this, is that there could be a true battle for control over the fertile land (and waters...) between the player and Planetmind. The Highlands, the Monsoon Jungle and Polar areas can serve as a sanctuary for humans where they're less bothered with native life, because it doesn't thrive well in the climactic and atmospheric conditions of those terrains. For this to work, there should be more Highlands than just a sole peak here and there like it is now. More like a couple true highland plateaus. Requires work on mapscripts. If even the Highlands are overrun by Fungus, the player can always retreat to polar areas. Perhaps having a "Launch Solar Shade" Planetary Council option as in SMAC, which here increases the Polar area, would be neat, increasing the fungus free land. :D Though of course the Polar areas can't support as much human life as you can only build Greenhouses here, not Farms. If you want to gain more economic power but don't want to go Green and side with Planet, you'll have to try and keep the Flowering Counter low and expand into the fungus infested Lowlands. Then as a reward, you'll be able to upgrade your farms towards a human Eden even on Lowlands, plus build Boreholes there (can't be built on Midland and Highlands).

Ellestar, would it be possible to code the stuff not written in Italic?
I think yes, italics ones looks ok too.

Any idea what this would give for the initial counter with the current CvMapGeneratorUtil.py?
No idea, probably around 20-25.

2) For each Condenser worked by a base which has the Atmospheric Adjuster base facility, the Flowering Counter decreases by Y/X each turn. What Y should be I can only tell through experimenting (some number much smaller than 100 of course). May I therefore suggest, for easier modding, to make a new define in GlobalDefines.xml for Y?
Shouldn't it depend on a map size too?

3) Upon researching Ecological Engineering the Farms (*4) of the team having that tech should start to upgrade to Farm->Outpost->Settlement(->Human Zone)->Eden. The lower the Flowering Counter, the faster they should upgrade. Some formula needed which leads to an absolute stop of growth at Counter 100, but still makes it take some turns for these improvements to grow at Counter 0.
Linear function or not?

8) A minimum Counter level E should be reached before Fungus can grow inside factional territory.
Hmm, fungus cares about factions? In FFH you can say it's magic but in SMAC human development is represented by roads and land improvements. By the way, should fungus grow over roads?

9) Standard Civ4 rules are that features can only grow into empty tiles. I'd like to deviate from that in three cases.
a) as in SMAC, forests (not hybrid forests) should be able to grow over fungus (not hybrid forests). At a lower probability than growing into empty tiles though.
For Planetfall, I'd also like Planetmind to return the favour though. :evilgrin: Therefore:
b) Provided the Counter is above a certain minimum level F, fungus can grow over forests.
c) Provided the Counter is above a certain minimum level G, fungus can grow over (Monsoon) Jungle.
Should this one (or others, for that matter) depend on a difficulty level?

For this to work, there should be more Highlands than just a sole peak here and there like it is now. More like a couple true highland plateaus. Requires work on mapscripts.
And IMHO we should fix graphics somehow if we want to use Highlands more than now.

If even the Highlands are overrun by Fungus, the player can always retreat to polar areas.
Well, you can always destroy fungus. And fungus doesn't overrun land improvements. So, it's not like a fungus growth can overrun anyone. Maybe pops can do the job though, but that's another mechanics.

Shouldn't it depend on a map size too?

It does. Y/X instead of just Y. Though while I still think it would be best if the initial Flowering Counter only takes into account the non-polar/ice terrain, I'm wondering if it would be best for all Counter changes after that to take into account the whole map. Otherwise you might get the strange situations if we're gonna have a Planetary Council motion to increase the polar caps.

So X = number of plots the map has, minus sea plots covered by the Ice feature and land plots of the three polar types, basically minus all plots Fungus can't ever possibly grow on, even not with a Counter of 100.
While Z = number of plots the map has

Flowering Counter upon game startup
For each plot covered by Xenofungus or Sea Fungus or Hybrid Forest, 100/X is added to the Counter.

Stuff that affects the Flowering Counter during the game

1) For each tile xenofungus/sea fungus/hybrid forest appears on, no matter how it happens (through natural growth, planting or fungal bloom), the Flowering Counter raises by 100/Z. The other way around, for each fungus tile removed, the Counter decreases by 100/Z.

2) For each Condenser worked by a base which has the Atmospheric Adjuster base facility, the Flowering Counter decreases by Y/Z each turn.

Linear function or not?

Good question. ;)
Perhaps something like this instead?:
Flowering Counter at 0: <iUpgradeTime> in CIV4ImprovementInfos.xml not modified
Flowering Counter at 25: <iUpgradeTime> doubled
Flowering Counter at 50: <iUpgradeTime> tripled
Flowering Counter at 75: <iUpgradeTime> quadrupled
With continuous modifiers in between.
On values above 75 the improvements don't upgrade at all.

Hmm, fungus cares about factions? In FFH you can say it's magic but in SMAC human development is represented by roads and land improvements.

I was thinking from the human perspective. At low Counter levels you could say factions are able to keep the natural growth of the fungus within their territory easily in check without much effort. At higher levels not => fungus can grow within factional borders.

By the way, should fungus grow over roads?

I'd say yes. Same with forests btw. IIRC currently in Civ4 features can't expand in terrain with routes, no?

Should this one (or others, for that matter) depend on a difficulty level?

I'm not very fond of all kinds of stuff working differently on different difficult levels: it's impossible to create a balanced game on a wide variety of settings. Ideally IMO difficulty level should only affect the strength and bonuses of your opponents.
However I'm hoping there can be a setting in the mapscript where you can set how much percent of the map is covered by fungus at the start of the game. That would automatically affect the Flowering Counter and the strength of native life (through the promotion that gives a combat bonus dependent on the Counter).

And IMHO we should fix graphics somehow if we want to use Highlands more than now.

Let's ask AA about it. :D

Well, you can always destroy fungus. And fungus doesn't overrun land improvements. So, it's not like a fungus growth can overrun anyone. Maybe pops can do the job though, but that's another mechanics.

Yep. I'd like fungal blooms on highlands to be impossible before a certain Counter height is reached. If there's a fungal bloom event, but no valid plots to bloom into, the Counter should rise instead. Which reminds me, is there a python integer for the value of the Flowering Counter? And is there the ability to increase/decrease the Counter through python?


Some random suggestions for numbers btw. Will most likely change after some playtesting.

5) The <iGrowth> tag of all fungus features should be affected by the Flowering Counter. At Counter 0 growth should be zero. Not sure what formula to use.

<iGrowth> = value of the Flowering Counter?

<iGrowth> should also always be affected by the elevation level of the plot to grow into. Chance for growth in Highlands is always smaller than chance for growth in Midlands than chance for growth in Lowlands (and water terrains).

Midlands = <iGrowth> / 2
Highlands = <iGrowth> / 3
?

10) At very low Counter levels, forest growth should be increased. No difference at medium or high Counter levels though.

Perhaps <iGrowth> for Forest should be zero on Counter levels 34 and above, but increase by one for each number below? Counter 33 => <iGrowth> 1. Counter 32 => <iGrowth> 2. Counter 0 => <iGrowth> 34.

a) as in SMAC, forests (not hybrid forests) should be able to grow over fungus (not hybrid forests). At a lower probability than growing into empty tiles though.

At half the chance or something?

Noticed you added some Flowering Counter stuff. Starting on small maps, the counter is around 80 at the start though. :confused: How is the counter calculated?

Noticed you added some Flowering Counter stuff. Starting on small maps, the counter is around 80 at the start though. :confused: How is the counter calculated?
Some parts of the code aren't tested yet and i'm not sure what exactly happens during the map generation so it's not a surprise that it doesn't always work as expected. In other words, it's not finished yet.

I honestly like a bit of randomness with the Counter. Should it always start at zero? Can we have an option for a zero start and also a 0-X start?

Actually the idea is exactly for the initial Flowering level to depend on how much fungus is on the map (so it won't be zero). :) In other words: great idea of yours! :mischief:

Actually the idea is exactly for the initial Flowering level to depend on how much fungus is on the map (so it won't be zero). :) In other words: great idea of yours! :mischief:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, but even with that I think there should be a random value simply to spice up how Planet is feeling that game.

And I had no idea people were using my ideas before I said them! :p

I'm hoping that in some far future we could select map options for Sparse/Normal/Abundant/Random native life, which would affect the initial Flowering Counter. Is that what you want? I'm not sure at this point if it would make any sense to start with little fungus but a high flowering counter, or with lots of fungus but a small counter, given how they're related. In any case, if desired I assume it should be fairly to just slap a random [-5, 5] or something on the initial counter.

I guess I'm not associating the Flowering Counter with just fungus. No big deal either way.

Are we planning on Events were the counter is raised +20 or so for X number of turns?

I guess I'm not associating the Flowering Counter with just fungus. No big deal either way.

What do you want to associate the Flowering Counter with? I'm eager for more ideas. :D

Is there stuff in the initial post which you would want to occur more or less without having more/less fungus too?

Are we planning on Events were the counter is raised +20 or so for X number of turns?

Would be cool. (though wouldn't know right now how to do this)

Would it surprise anyone if I admitted I hadn't read the first post in 56 days? :blush:

For some Flower affecting Events...should we have an events only thread?

Anything along the lines of...

Seedlings found:

A - Nurture, germinate and plant fungus (1 tile deal) - subtract gold from treasury and lower counter
B - Do nothing
C - Eradicate seedlings or study them to further assault on planet - Boost to research, but raising of FC.

I'm sure there are endless variations on this theme.

Would it surprise anyone if I admitted I hadn't read the first post in 56 days? :blush:

That's what I assumed. I often wonder when reading some post if people have even opened Planetfall the last two months or so. :mischief:

For some Flower affecting Events...should we have an events only thread?

You made an Events (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=237304) thread a while ago. All kinds of event ideas could be gathered there. It's always good to collect lots of ideas in advance. Though considering we haven't even implemented many of our core mechanics, I don't consider events a priority to implement.

Sweet. I'm guilty on all counts. ;)

What's the 54200 number in those pics taken before and after loading the same game?

What's the 54200 number in those pics taken before and after loading the same game?
It's a sum of all <iPlanetValue100> from features and improvements. I'm not sure if we need to show it but it's useful for testing and maybe balancing too.
Number of plots is already fixed in the code.

Number of plots is already fixed in the code.

If you mean by that, that the Flowering Counter should remain the same at the start of the game and after loading a save, unfortunately this is not the case (though IIRC the difference pre/post-load is smaller these days).
I've tried looking at the SDK code, but I can't figure it out, since the relevant parts are spread out over so many files. :crazyeye: So I'm wondering, could you please describe how currently the initial Flowering Counter at the start of the game is determined, and how it evolves from there?

If you mean by that, that the Flowering Counter should remain the same at the start of the game and after loading a save, unfortunately this is not the case (though IIRC the difference pre/post-load is smaller these days).

I've tried looking at the SDK code, but I can't figure it out, since the relevant parts are spread out over so many files. :crazyeye: So I'm wondering, could you please describe how currently the initial Flowering Counter at the start of the game is determined, and how it evolves from there?
I mean, number of habitable plots should stay the same if you save and immediately load the game. Flowering Counter can't possibly remain the same compared to the start of the game because fungus has a chance to spread each turn.

Well, at the start of the game/save each plot is considered unhabitable and number of habitable map plots is equal to zero. Each time you change terrain type, plot type or feature type, number of habitable map plots is being updated: +1 if that plot wasn't habitable but now it is and -1 if it was habitable but now it isn't. Since terrain type should be set for every plot, it will be updated for all plots when map is created or loaded from a save.

I mean, number of habitable plots should stay the same if you save and immediately load the game. Flowering Counter can't possibly remain the same compared to the start of the game because fungus has a chance to spread each turn.

When I start a game the Flowering Counter is at 22 for instance. I save that game, and immediately reload, and the Counter has changed to 19, despite no terrains or features or anything having changed.

The initial Flowering Counter should IMO be based on 100 * (# of plots covered by fungus / # of plots that can be covered by fungus at Flowering Counter 0 = the habitable plots at that time). Let's call this formula A.

Reason why the initial Flowering Counter should be based only on the habitable plots at Counter 0, is to prevent the situation where you generate a map with lots of plots/terrain/features on which fungus initially can't grow, meaning the Counter would be very low, and also meaning that the Counter would never be able to get high enough to expand into previously inaccessible terrain.

During the game the Flowering Counter should evolve with the spreading of fungus. The formula being 100 * (1 per plot / total # of plots that the map has). Let's call this formula B.

Reason why the evolving Flowering Counter during the game should not be based only on the habitable plots of that time but on the entire map, is to prevent the counterintuitive situations of the Flowering Counter slowing down its increase or decreasing because MORE plots become habitable, or the reverse: the Flowering Counter increasing because less plots become habitable. Eg with the current <iPlanetValue100> implementation of evolving the Counter, using formula A here would result in a sudden Counter drop when the Counter became high enough to expand into Highlands.

So does the initial Flowering Counter use formula A or B?
100 * (# of plots covered by fungus / # of plots that can be covered by fungus at Flowering Counter 0 = the habitable plots at that time)
or
100 * (# of plots covered by fungus / total # of plots that the map has)
or
something else? :confused:

And when fungus grows on a tile, does the Counter increase by:
100 / # of fungus-habitable plots at that time
or
100 / total # of plots that the map has
or
something else? :confused:
I believe this is determined by <iPlanetValue100>?

Also Formula A and Formula B give a different number. Does the game after reloading a save remember the initial Flowering Counter calculation, which would result in a higher Counter than if the Counter were solely determined by <iPlanetValue100>? In other words, the Counter at any point in the game should if I understand corectly consist of the sum of:

1) A remnant of the initial calculation, which remains the same for the whole game:

100 * [(# of plots covered by fungus at game start / # of habitable plots at Counter 0) - (# of plots covered by fungus at game start / total # of map plots)]

PLUS

2) A dynamic part based on your implementation of <iPlanetValue100>, which if I understand correctly is: (edit: or wait, I believe it's based on habitable plots instead? :confused: )

100 * (# of plots covered by fungus at this particular moment / total # of map plots)


Anyway, I know what I'm saying here is technically incorrect. In this formula, read "fungus" as FEATURE_XENOFUNGUS, FEATURE_SEA_FUNGUS, FEATURE_HYBRID_FOREST, which all have <iPlanetValue100>100</iPlanetValue100>.

Forget about what was there, plot was initialized twice so that misguided me about where to put my initialization.

Formula is sum of all iPlanetValue100 divided by a number of plots that can possibly be habitable no matter what the current planet value is (in other words, all plots but the ones which are never habitable - like ice or polar). That way number of plots doesn't depend on itself, like with the formula (A).

So, when everything possible is covered by fungus, planet value from features/improvements will be
100 (it's <iPlanetValue100> for fungus)*habitable plots / habitable plots = 100.

Thanks.
But then what's causing the difference pre- and post-loading?? :confused:

I said, my mistake :) Code itself was fine, but i put calls to it in the wrong place :) This time it seems to be working properly.

Anyway, uploading new dll. We don't have transport ships as i understand so i can't check if that feature works properly. But other than that, goody huts should work as you want.

I said, my mistake :)

Woops sorry. :mischief: I had no idea what your sentence "plot was initialized twice so that misguided me about where to put my initialization" meant. :blush:

Code itself was fine, but i put calls to it in the wrong place :) This time it seems to be working properly.

:goodjob:

Anyway, uploading new dll. We don't have transport ships as i understand so i can't check if that feature works properly. But other than that, goody huts should work as you want.

Hurray! Off to add new goody results!
We do have a transport foil btw, but it's bugged: all transports are considered fighter carriers. :sad: The lack of the SpecialCargo XML tag in ChassisInfos seems to be causing problems or something.

<ReplaceFeatureType>, <iReplaceFeatureBeforePlanetValue> - non-nature feature can replace a feature defined in <ReplaceFeatureType> if global planet value is lower than <iReplaceFeatureBeforePlanetValue> (with this one forests can replace fungus)

Do you think forests shouldn't be able to grow over fungus at counter levels higher than 40?

New tag in GlobalDefinesAlt.xml:
<NATURE_SPREADS_IN_CULTURE_AT_PLANET_VALUE>

:goodjob:

New rules for nature features (bNature is true):
That feature can spread in a plot with improvements and destroy an improvement if it isn't compatible (unlike all other features). When feature makes an improvement valid (tag <FeatureMakesValid> in CIV4ImprovementInfos.xml), it is considered compatible.

Does that mean fungus can naturally grow over terrain improvements? I thought it would be best if fungus could only destroy terrain improvements by fungal blooms caused by eco-damage. Do you disagree?

Nature features are counted as features of the same type for spreading purposes (sea fungus can spread on land as fungus, fungus can spread on water as sea fungus). I can turn it off if you think it's a bad idea.

Fungus spreading from land to sea and vice versa sounds great. :goodjob:

Note: In Civ 4 features don't spread in diagonal directions, only north-south-east-west. Is it as we want it to be?

First thought was "who cares?" but considering the Planetfall mapscript creates stuff like:
PH
FP
where P = Peak, H = Highlands and F = fungus infested lowland...
yeah it might be best to allow diagonal spreading. :goodjob:

Do we need a second tag so Hybrid Forest will be able to grow over forest or vice versa? Which conditions should it have?

Hybrid Forest is a Planet-friendly feature, a symbiogenesis between fungus and genetically modified terran trees. So fungus shouldn't naturally grow over hybrid forests. However neither should hybrid forests grow over forests, or vice versa. So hybrid forests is neither nature or non-nature. Or both at the same time. :hmm:

Fungus can grow over Forest
Forest can grow over Fungus
Fungus can grow over Jungle, given the right Flowering Counter of course
Hybrid Forest can't be grown over or grow over any other feature

(See "Three ecologies" thread; I'd let forest automatically change into hybrid forest or vice versa depending on the civic used - doesn't use the spread mechanic)

Do you think forests shouldn't be able to grow over fungus at counter levels higher than 40?
Not exactly 40 but IIRC something like that was discussed before.

Does that mean fungus can naturally grow over terrain improvements? I thought it would be best if fungus could only destroy terrain improvements by fungal blooms caused by eco-damage. Do you disagree?
Well, right now it's set to Planet Value, i guess it's next to impossible for a counter to grow that high unless we'll add some ways to increase the counter. You may set it to 200 or 1000 or something if you want, just don't set to 9999 as this value is used in Global Planet Value calculations.

First thought was "who cares?" but considering the Planetfall mapscript creates stuff like:
PH
FP
where P = Peak, H = Highlands and F = fungus infested lowland...
yeah it might be best to allow diagonal spreading. :goodjob:
Ok, but double number of checks means double growth rate so i'll halve all numeric values of feature growth to compensate.

int CvPlayer::getImprovementUpgradeRate() const
{
int iRate;

iRate = 1; // XXX

iRate *= std::max(0, (getImprovementUpgradeRateModifier() + 100));
iRate /= 100;

return iRate;
}

Hmm, perhaps the following could be a good implementation?:

iRate is (100 + improvementupgraderatemodifier - 2*Flowering Counter)/100, with of course an assurance the rate is minimum zero.

Since the Terraformed Ecology civic gives +100 ImprovementUpgradeRateModifier, this would mean Farms don't upgrade at all for them at Flowering Counter level 100, and that it would be beneficial for Terraformers to get the Counter as low as possible.

I really like the idea of a flowering counter. SMAC talked about Planet's growing sentience and aggression against humanities growth, but didn't have a lot to show for it except stronger mindworms. I feel though, that the way you have it set up is almost backwards. I would think that prior to the arrival of the humans, Planet would be in relative ecological equilibrium, with the fungus acting as a major part of the ecosystem, but in balance with the other parts (ie the native generic green growth and jungle). When the humans arrive, they introduce new plants and animals, and most importantly start destroying fungus. This triggers the immune-like response of the fungus: the mind worms etc. (I can't remember which quote compared them to white blood cells). I would think then that it would be the destruction of fungus and its usurpation by terraforming that would trigger increasing response from Planet. Since the Planetmind is psionic in nature, all the sentient mental energy of the increasing human population should also trigger its growth (the Voice talked about learning from humans in the quotes, even before the beginning of the transcendence process).

In a separate argument, I think that the flowering counter and planet values are pushing the player in opposite directions, the player wants to leave any fungus they can because this raises planetvalue, making fungal blooms less common. On the other hand, the player wants to get rid of as much fungus as possible, so as to reduce the flowering counter and make the native life weaker. The best player response in this set up would be to clear all the fungus, except what's in their base radius, which seems to me like it should piss Planet off.

In terms of the effect of Planetvalue, I like that it should make the native life stronger, but I don't think it should make farms grow slower. If fungal blooms can't spread far from the fungus, how would the fungus prevent the growth of farms? Also, since the current Planetvalue starts relatively high (about 25%), and keeps getting higher, farms start out growing slowly, and get slower and slower. There's no point in ever building them except very early on, or into the midgame if you are using the terraformer option. As is, there's almost no point in using the terraforming civic past a certain flowering counter.
My suggestion would be to keep the native life bonus, and increasing fungus spread effects, but also make a high flowering counter increase fungal blooms. I see fungal blooms in particular as the Planetmind intentionally directing its attacks as its intelligence grows.
I know that what I'm suggesting would make the planetvalue and flowering counter similar, but here's the important differences I see: Planetvalue would be the effects of humans destructive activities in terms of individual cities and factions, and would be something that could be reversed, when for instance when a faction realizes the harm it is doing (as Lal appears to have based on the quotes). The flowering counter on the other hand would be the effect of all the human life on Planet. It would show the growth in sentience of Planetmind and would only go in one direction, up. For factions that continued to do harm, it would make things worse and worse, but for a faction that adapts to life with Planet, (i.e. having a high planetvalue and using hybrid forests) it wouldn't cause as many problems.

(Wow, that's a long reply, I wonder if anyone will bother to read it all)

I don't understand. If both ecological destruction by terraformers and I assume planting fungus by hybrids increase the flowering counter, how can you fight it?

It could lead to strange situations like a Hybrid *wanting* all other factions to harm Planet.

The best player response in this set up would be to clear all the fungus, except what's in their base radius, which seems to me like it should piss Planet off.

No, you should clear all fungus in sight.

It would have to be set up so that the amount of fungus had no effect on flowering counter. If flowering counter is a measure of the Planetmind's intelligence and aggression, then I would think that it would be a factor of network complexity not size. For example, women have smaller brains than men, but are equally intelligent.
The way I see it, Planet should get more aggressive as time goes on. This counters the human factions increasing technology, unless they adapt to and mollify Planet. That is, use civics, religions, and technologies to get a high Planetvalue, in which case Planet will not attack them. So in that way, a growing flowering counter wouldn't benefit a Hybrid directed faction, except that it would harm factions that aren't.

So I have no idea how to put this into Civ, but here's an equation to calculate the flowering counter (FC) based on my previous ideas:

FC(new) = FC(old) + (pop*5/area + negimp/(2*area))*runif(0,2)

where FC(new) is the FC for the current turn, FC(old) is the FC from last turn, pop is the current total population for all factions, area is the number of squares on the map, negimp is the total negative planetvalue of improvements on the map (e.g. two mines: negimp=1), and runif(0,2) is a random number from the uniform distribution ranging between 0 and 2 (this term is not strictly necessary, it just adds some unpredictability in the yearly change)

The Flowering counter displayed on the screen would actually be this value rounded to the nearest whole number.

The constants would probably need some tweaking. But I think these values won't be too many orders of magnitude off.

So in that way, a growing flowering counter wouldn't benefit a Hybrid directed faction, except that it would harm factions that aren't.

I want a high Flowering Counter to benefit Hybrids, and harm Terraformers. This creates the possibility for an interesting conflict of interests between Hybrids and Terraformers.

Under your suggestion a Hybrid would be happy to see others pollute Planet.

I'm using the term Hybrid faction as shorthand for a faction that does all it can (civics, religions, technologies, etc) to work with planet rather than just talking about the civic. I'm guessing that you're doing so also.

The way I see it, a Hybrid faction would still benefit from a high FC in that it would do more harm to the other civs, but not be much of an issue to the Hybrid factions. The way it reads in the original SMAC quotes, and I feel the most logical path, would be that none of the factions benefit from the native life of planet (fungus and worms) at first, but as they discover new technologies they begin to be able to choose to work with planet. Deidre talked about attacks from mindworms in the early quotes. I think advanced technologies should provide Hybrid factions, specifically those factions with positive average planetvalues, with production bonuses on fungus (beyond the original plus one production with the civic). This would create conflict between the Hybrids and the Terraformers in that the Terraformers would want to get rid of all the fungus they can to prevent blooms, while the Hybrids want more.

Also I think the native life bonus for high average planetvalue should be extended to a bonus in all Psi combat, like in the original SMAC. This way Terraformers are threatened by the military use of native life by Hybrid factions. Then this should be balanced by the increased resources available to factions that build Edens and boreholes.

I've reconsidered and I feel that your point about Hybrid factions wanting others to build negative improvements is a valid one. Because of this, I now feel that the FC should only be related to the total population on Planet. My biggest reason for wanting it this way is that it gives the planet life continued importance throughout the game. As is, the biggest threat from Planet occurs at a middle point in the game, when the fungus has grown faster on the sea than the AI's can remove it on land. Eventually the player develops enough to tame Planet, while the growth of the AI factions is halted by more fungal blooms than they can deal with. If the agressiveness and intellect of Planet (as reflected by the FC) is tied to population, then it would be easier to balance it against the abilities of the AI. Also I think dealing with an agressive planet late in the game would make it more interesting for the player.

OK, whether or not my ideas listed above get implemented, I feel like Planet's defenses are way too dangerous at the begging of the game, but less and less of an issue as the game goes on. Is this intentional? If so, I'll learn to live with it. Otherwise, I think the Flowering Counter mechanism should be changed.

What do you mean with "Planet's defenses"? Fungal blooms spawns, randomly wandering native life, all native life combat?

Yeah I should be more specific. My problem is really with the fungal blooms. I think there should be random wandering native life. Perhaps more than there is now. Although I haven't tried the raging barbarians option. Its the fungal blooms that are too dangerous and too common early in the game. Then once you've fortified with bunkers and can produce units easily the fungal blooms barely matter.

It's kinda funny. Arkham is currently saying in the main thread fungal blooms are still too dangerous in the late game.

As for too dangerous in the early game, I plan on letting a Perimeter Defense give an automatic Bunker unit in your base. That should make it easier to deal with fungus earlier.

As for fungal blooms becoming easier/too easy to deal with in the late game, I guess that's kinda inevitable in any game with an exponential economic growth curve. You could argue though that the threat of fungal blooms forces you to fortify yourself with bunkers, and even if as consequence the fungal blooms are no longer a real danger, it still leads to an interesting difference in military strategies and colonization strategies between a Hybrid and a Terraformer.

I like that terraformers have to build up their defenses whereas Hybrids don't have to worry about it. However, I'd like to see the danger from Planet (mainly focused on fungal blooms) increase along with the human growth. I figure that's the whole point of the Flowering Counter. As is, my FC tends to start at about 20 and then it moves up to 30 fairly quickly, and then doesn't do much. However, if you want it to be a relatively constant effect, say so, and I'll stop harping on it.

I want the Flowering Counter to reach much higher heights in some games, but I want it to happen through other means than turning the entire sea in a fungal carpet. I figured it should happen through human action. For instance Hybrid Forests contribute three times as much to the Flowering Counter as Xenofungus. For that approach to work however, I need to improve the AI...

What if though, terraformer factions dominate. Should they be able to completely tame Planet? Is there anything wrong with basing it on total human population over time?

Also, how about starting it lower? As is, Terraformers tend to get smashed by Planet before they can even begin getting established.

What if though, terraformer factions dominate. Should they be able to completely tame Planet? Is there anything wrong with basing it on total human population over time?

I could imagine that this would to a smilar, high rising FC in every game - because I don't think there will be too much difference in total human population on the planet from game to game. At least not if you count it in population points...if you would use the "population figure" in the demographics, things might change because here it would make a huge difference, if the planet carries fewer huge populated and polluting terraformer cities or many small ones from Hybrid-followers. But if that is possible technically at all, it would require operations with huge figures (as that value increases geometrically) and its impact might be much too strong.

I could imagine that this would to a smilar, high rising FC in every game - because I don't think there will be too much difference in total human population on the planet from game to game. At least not if you count it in population points...if you would use the "population figure" in the demographics, things might change because here it would make a huge difference, if the planet carries fewer huge populated and polluting terraformer cities or many small ones from Hybrid-followers. But if that is possible technically at all, it would require operations with huge figures (as that value increases geometrically) and its impact might be much too strong.

I think the FC should go up high in every game by the time the Factions have covered most of Planet. One thing I liked in SMAC is the way the human factions had to eventually come to terms and deal with the fact that their new home was sentient, and didn't like some of them. But at the beginning they were able to grow without regard to the Planet (except for the Gaians). At least that's how I understood the story told through the quotes.
Tying it to population helps control the speed at which it increases. If for instance the factions are peaceful and build up large populations it would increase faster. Alternatively, if there's a lot of war, cities won't be able to grow much and new cities won't be established as often. In that case FC would increase slower. But in the end, either the humans need to unite to work against Planet, or they need to join with Planet. Hence the victories.

Letting other actions increase the counter could be good too. Razing cities (when allowed) and firing nukes comes to mind.

Letting other actions increase the counter could be good too. Razing cities (when allowed) and firing nukes comes to mind.

Nukes I agree with, but razing cities would probably be a good thing for planet. Even if you counted the additional pollutants that could be released during razing I doubt they'd be worse than leaving the city there. Don't forget those yummy nutrients released into the ecosystem (hmm, people).

After all, the different factions would probably scavenge as much of that stuff as possible during the razing. Extra nuclear material, chemicals etc would be valuable loot in this setting no?

Letting other actions increase the counter could be good too. Razing cities (when allowed) and firing nukes comes to mind.

The problem with making firing nukes raise the FC is it then encourages the Hybrid factions to do so, as a high FC doesn't hurt them.

How about fungal nukes usable only by the Voice of Planet whackos?

How about fungal nukes usable only by the Voice of Planet whackos?Hmmm... SMAX's fungal payloads... they created nice patches of fungus, often with a fungal tower at ground zero, though they didn't do any damage. Would be nice to see these things again, if the AI understands the point of them.

Cheers, LT.

Hmmm... SMAX's fungal payloads... they created nice patches of fungus, often with a fungal tower at ground zero, though they didn't do any damage. Would be nice to see these things again, if the AI understands the point of them.

Cheers, LT.

Yeah you are right! SMAX had those. I'd love to be able to play an sea base only civ too, *drools*

if the AI understands the point of them.

I'm more concerned with the AI not being able to fight off the resulting chaos in the middle of their Terraformed lands. ;)

Okay, the planet count determines who is attacked by Native life? does it determine where native life spawns (as influenced by flowering counter)

Okay, the planet count determines who is attacked by Native life? does it determine where native life spawns (as influenced by flowering counter)

A city's Planet value influences the likelihood that a fungal bloom will occur in the city's BFC if it includes or is bordered by squares with fungus.