It's the late renaissance, and I'm playing as Churchill, sharing an Island with Justinian. We're both Jewish, and just wiped out the Incans together (I captured four cities, he got 1 which I'm slowly culture-bombing). I'm in the tech lead, with Justinian close behind. Though our borders are causing tensions, our relations are excellent, and the terrain means any war is likely to be a long, drawn-out affair. As it is, I'm not afraid of him; I'm far enough ahead of him that he might be a rival, he's really not a threat.

On the other side of the world, though, Shaka just forced Frederick into capitulation, and he's dominating a bunch of weak civs. I'm still way ahead of him in tech, but once he starts reaping the peace dividend, he's going to be dangerous.

I have Astronomy, and I get Redcoats in two turns. Presently, Shaka is very weak, and overextended. 3-4 Galleons of Redcoats should be enough to liberate Germany. So here are my questions:

1. Which is my priority: the small, near threat (Justinian), or the big, distant threat (Shaka)?
2. Obviously, as Shaka's vassal, Fred will have to declare war as soon as I declare war on Shaka. However, if I cede the cities back to Fred after signing a peace treaty, will our relations improve? Does he stay mad at me for attacking his overlord, even if I return the cities to him? It makes no sense logically, but from a game mechanics perspective, I suspect it'll be like liberating France and leaving the Vichy government in power.

Hi

I'm no expert player but from what you describe here is what I would be thinking--

1) The best Shaka is a dead Shaka :). If Shaka isnt a threat now then kill him before he becomes one. As for Justininan if you having good relations with him then maybe it might be best to let him be for awhile. If like you say shaka is bullying all the other civs near him and you can bully shaka then once you take out shaka you can bully and dominate them and expand that direction and not have to go to war with justinian.

And even if at some point you DO decide for whatever reason Justy has to go if you take out shaka and his nieghbors first and then consolidate all that territory into working for you then you should be able to get a war done with Justy LOTS quicker.

2)There is no "you attacked our master" penalty however since by DOW on the master you automatically also DOW on the vassals I think you will get a "you delcared war on us" penalty. And depending on how friendly Freddy is with Shaka you MIGHT get a "you attacked our friend" penalty. It SHOULD be unlikely if Shaka just got through doing a war with Freddy and forced him to capitulate but sometimes the AI's seem to kiss and make up and become BFF's VERY fast.

However in order to get freddy to break off you first have to take over or destroy enough of shaka's empire that freddy can free himself if he wants. It's no guarantee he will though so you might have to take shaka all the way out.

But if he does break free and you give him back some of his old cities shaka took and you took from shaka yeah you will get some diplo points for that.

Although really I'm not sure why you would go to all THAT much bother to get friendly with a civ so weak they already capitulated once. I would just keep attacking Freddy after he breaks off from shaka one way or another and either conquer Freddy completely or make him capitulate to you and be your vassal from now on hehe.

One warning about taking vassals yourself though. Owning vassals COULD affect your diplo standing with Justy. Because not only is there automatic negative of "we fear our rivals being your vassals" diplo hit the way way relations work is that overall status is the average of relations between justy and you and your vassals so if Just REALLY hates Shaka or Freddy or anyone else you vassalize it could end up dropping your relations with justy. So all in and all if you can afford the maintainance it usually safer bet to just wipe out a civ entirely.

One thing that could help is to get justy to join you in war against shake and then you will get the "mutual mil struggle" bonus. And if he is too friendly with shaka to agree then be ready for a "you declared war on our friend" hit. And if he IS THAT friendly with shaka be careful Justy isnt bribed into waring on you.

If your status is Friendly and you been friendly for good long while then you should be ok. Just be careful if it drops to pleased or lower during the war. I am not 100% sure but I THINK Justy might be one of the civs who can be bribed into going to war against civs he is at pleased or lower with. And he definitely can be bribed if he drops to cautious for some reason.

Diplomacy can give me headache hehe. However I think in long run taking out shaka and then leveraging your conquest to be big enough to handle Justy in long run is still best bet. Just try to get Justy on your side in war and if you cant do some trades and stuff to try and keep relta ions good andALWAYS keep some units near your borders with him JUST in case for some reason he starts feeling froggy and decide to take a jump at you.

Kaytie

Another thing to consider is Fred's view of Shaka. If Shaka is Fred's worst enemy, slighting him a bit won't be too bad. I would send a suicide force to raze Shaka's cities. If you can take out his capital (this is why I like the vikings) where the majority of the great people are settled he won't be able to come after you for a while. Another target is the city where his fleet is. I believe that he will eventually come after your island to pursue his domination victory.

I think you should raze the cities and not give them to Fred. Fred probably won't worth propping up. In addition you won't be able to give them to him unless he breaks free, which will mean killing a lot of cities. I reduced brennus to one city once and he still didn't break free from his master, though he capitulated when he had 2 or 3.

There shouldn't be a DOW on friend penalty if Fred hates Shaka, which is a possibility. Although an overseas vassal would be nice to let you more freedom to look around, I doubt its worth the trouble. Although looking at the Shaka-Justy relationship is sound advice.

Well, I've taken over about 3 of the 5 Zulu-occupied German cities (an interesting story in and of itself, recounted partially here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=277553)), but, well, now I think I might stay.

While trying to get my logistical chain sorted out, I discovered that my territory is void of both coal and oil, but the German territory is full of both. I guess I'm staying.

So much for good intentions - it looks like Freddie was right to hate me after all.