First of all, I'd like to say this is an especially well done part of the mod, and allows for a sort of 'proxy war' situation.

However, I have a suggestion to make: since historically the Nationalists were supported by troops from Italy and Germany, and the Republicans by a variety of other nations (including the Soviet Union), would it be possible to program the appropriate AIs to gift troops to each of the sides? It's possible for the player to do this by way of landing craft, although a system which didn't require the loss of landing craft would be preferable (though not necessary).

Anyhow, keep up the good work!

Would it be possible to make this into a quest? E.g., "Gift X units to [appropriate faction] by Year Y, receive Z as gift". What is the payoff? For Historic or Random Mode it has to be something simple. Maybe cash? Maybe tech boost? (and maybe a sliding scale: 1 unit = 1 bonus, 2 units = increased bonuses, limit of x units/x bonuses.) For Open Mode, it could involve improved relations with other countries sharing your 'religion', much-improved relations with Spanish faction (and much-worse relations with their opponent).

Beta check fortnight 1941 :king:

I agree. You should get open borders with the appropriate faction for your nation to support. That way you can gift units to them easily, and you get the added bonus of using their land for air and sea bases during WWII, that should be reason enough to support them. For example, Germany helps Nationalist Iberia win the war, so he can now walk troops to Gibraltar, instead of having to use boats. He also gets a good base for air attacks on France. Soviet Union can use it for airbases to attack germany if Republicans win.

. For example, Germany helps Nationalist Iberia win the war, so he can now walk troops to Gibraltar, instead of having to use boats. He also gets a good base for air attacks on France.

But Germany never did because the Spainish government tried to stay as neutral as possible, Hitler tried to get Spain to agree to invade Gilbrater but couldn't persude them. While i agree with the idea of being able to gift or help one side i don't agree that it should be through using open borders.

But Germany never did because the Spainish government tried to stay as neutral as possible, Hitler tried to get Spain to agree to invade Gilbrater but couldn't persude them. While i agree with the idea of being able to gift or help one side i don't agree that it should be through using open borders.

Actually, you already can donate troops, but it involves using a landing craft (or an aircraft carrier for aircraft). My main point is not so much to create new mechanisms to donate troops, but rather to encourage the AI to do so.

Another point here, possibly an event simulating the International Brigades? i.e. the Republicans get some bonus troops soon after the war starts from volunteers.

The options for the quest in the Historical and Random modes should be very limited, since the reality was that other countries did not have a huge impact on the Spanish Civil War at least in CIV terms.

However, for Open Mode, it should be more variable. It can still be quest-like, but say with a hierarchical scale of gifts/possible-rewards. In that sense, if Germany did/offered a great deal more (e.g., more than they did historically), then perhaps Spain might allow open borders or might even join the Axis. Obviously the Allies also have the ability to turn things in their favor also. But in both cases the outcome should be partially random so that there is increased risk at the high-reward end of the spectrum (e.g., gift X units, gift oil, gift Y cash, Spain still might not do everything that you want). Perhaps it builds in stepwise fashion: e.g., gift X units, randomly Spain decides not to do anything to help you; gift another X units a few turns later, Spain is more likely to do the first-level thing to help you, but until they do the first-level help they won't give you the upper-level helps like open borders or permanent alliance.

The options for the quest in the Historical and Random modes should be very limited, since the reality was that other countries did not have a huge impact on the Spanish Civil War at least in CIV terms.

However, for Open Mode, it should be more variable. It can still be quest-like, but say with a hierarchical scale of gifts/possible-rewards. In that sense, if Germany did/offered a great deal more (e.g., more than they did historically), then perhaps Spain might allow open borders or might even join the Axis. Obviously the Allies also have the ability to turn things in their favor also. But in both cases the outcome should be partially random so that there is increased risk at the high-reward end of the spectrum (e.g., gift X units, gift oil, gift Y cash, Spain still might not do everything that you want). Perhaps it builds in stepwise fashion: e.g., gift X units, randomly Spain decides not to do anything to help you; gift another X units a few turns later, Spain is more likely to do the first-level thing to help you, but until they do the first-level help they won't give you the upper-level helps like open borders or permanent alliance.

I agree. The only issue is that the SCW doesnt happen in Open Play (I really think it should.)

I agree. The only issue is that the SCW doesnt happen in Open Play (I really think it should.)

Why? .

Becuase no matter what happened, the SCW was going to occur. IMO If Open Play really is the best gametype for What If... events, it needs to be historically accurate up to the starting date, or it negates the whole purpose.

Becuase no matter what happened, the SCW was going to occur. IMO If Open Play really is the best gametype for What If... events, it needs to be historically accurate up to the starting date, or it negates the whole purpose.

Not necessarily. A lone Moroccan nationalist might have assassinated Franco, thus removing the necessary spark to set off the tension.

The civil war was sparked by the Nationalists proclaiming that Azana and the republicans had cheated into their positions of power, although tensions had been rising since the 1934 rebellion in morocco, of which Franco fought against.

As I think I said elsewhere, I think a fourth mode is needed: Historical, Random, Open and What-If (or whatever you want to call it). Open Mode is just the usual CIV free-for-all using WWII-era units (e.g., Mexico can attack Canada, Germany and UK can ally against Sweden because the Swedes are "plotting against us all", etc.).

The What-If scenario would need to adjust diplomatic relations and penalties somewhat, and/or have some hard-coded and/or very-strong alliances/trade-networks to make it work. E.G., elsewhere, people have suggested Germany starting with better diplomatic standing with Democratic countries because of fear of communism. So, hard-code the UK/Australia/Canada alliance. Hard-code the Italy/Germany alliance (but the alliance with Japan needs to be worked at?). Make USSR/Finland start with hostile relationship. Give Poland/UK/France a defensive pact (which allows them to break it if they so choose?). Maybe the culture slider should be effective once again so that borders might fluctuate.

THe rest of the What-If Mode would be more speculative and hence out of my realm. E.g., how to include the Spanish Civil War? Depending on how other countries influence things, maybe it is triggered or maybe it doesn't happen at all. I wonder if there are other areas of the globe that were almost-ripe for civil war, but which did not happen (Palestine and India come to mind, only because I know they had their revolutionary period following WWII; perhaps there are others).

THe other angle on this would be espionage/diplomacy/propaganda: can you use spies/propaganda and diplomatic entreaties to get a country to fall into civil war? Can you use spies/propaganda to make some portion of a large empire fall into civil war -- colonies in Africa for example. Certainly, large garrisons, happiness-bldgs, etc. would counter this. (Sounds like the final stage should be an espionage mission: 'incite civil war?', spend the espionage-points/cash, then check to see if each city of that civ on that continent revolts or not over the course of X turns, with liklihood increasing if the initial rebellion is not squelched; regardless, at least some few partisan/guerrilla/barbarian type units are spawned -- I say 'on that continent' so that it isn't possible to fracture say the entire UK empire, just part of it -- say India or Africa or Middle East).

Now, this also seems potentially contradictory and that is where lots of work is needed to balance things and make it dynamic. What I don't want to see is Mexico DoW on Canada in Jan 1936 just because it is free-for-all. What I would like the possibility of is Mexico joining the Axis, IF the Axis countries spend time/resources to convince them (and the Allies similarly neglect/abuse them). And, as mentioned elsewhere, there could be various levels of alliance, which could be easier to reach with some countries than with others: trade-only, cut trade with opposition, open borders only, full alliance (e.g., Sweden allying with Germany is relatively more likely than Sweden allying with either China civ; some of this presumably is proximity as well as prior history).

As I think I said elsewhere, I think a fourth mode is needed: Historical, Random, Open and What-If (or whatever you want to call it). Open Mode is just the usual CIV free-for-all using WWII-era units (e.g., Mexico can attack Canada, Germany and UK can ally against Sweden because the Swedes are "plotting against us all", etc.).

The What-If scenario would need to adjust diplomatic relations and penalties somewhat, and/or have some hard-coded and/or very-strong alliances/trade-networks to make it work. E.G., elsewhere, people have suggested Germany starting with better diplomatic standing with Democratic countries because of fear of communism. So, hard-code the UK/Australia/Canada alliance. Hard-code the Italy/Germany alliance (but the alliance with Japan needs to be worked at?). Make USSR/Finland start with hostile relationship. Give Poland/UK/France a defensive pact (which allows them to break it if they so choose?). Maybe the culture slider should be effective once again so that borders might fluctuate.

THe rest of the What-If Mode would be more speculative and hence out of my realm. E.g., how to include the Spanish Civil War? Depending on how other countries influence things, maybe it is triggered or maybe it doesn't happen at all. I wonder if there are other areas of the globe that were almost-ripe for civil war, but which did not happen (Palestine and India come to mind, only because I know they had their revolutionary period following WWII; perhaps there are others).

THe other angle on this would be espionage/diplomacy/propaganda: can you use spies/propaganda and diplomatic entreaties to get a country to fall into civil war? Can you use spies/propaganda to make some portion of a large empire fall into civil war -- colonies in Africa for example. Certainly, large garrisons, happiness-bldgs, etc. would counter this. (Sounds like the final stage should be an espionage mission: 'incite civil war?', spend the espionage-points/cash, then check to see if each city of that civ on that continent revolts or not over the course of X turns, with liklihood increasing if the initial rebellion is not squelched; regardless, at least some few partisan/guerrilla/barbarian type units are spawned -- I say 'on that continent' so that it isn't possible to fracture say the entire UK empire, just part of it -- say India or Africa or Middle East).

Now, this also seems potentially contradictory and that is where lots of work is needed to balance things and make it dynamic. What I don't want to see is Mexico DoW on Canada in Jan 1936 just because it is free-for-all. What I would like the possibility of is Mexico joining the Axis, IF the Axis countries spend time/resources to convince them (and the Allies similarly neglect/abuse them). And, as mentioned elsewhere, there could be various levels of alliance, which could be easier to reach with some countries than with others: trade-only, cut trade with opposition, open borders only, full alliance (e.g., Sweden allying with Germany is relatively more likely than Sweden allying with either China civ; some of this presumably is proximity as well as prior history).

Thats nearly exactly what I'm getting at, but couldn't find the words to explain it properly. Thanks.

1. Gifting troops and resources DID have a huge impact on the Spanish Civil War. The U.S. diverted oil shipments to Franco for one.

2. I have the basic mod, and I only see Franco. Does another version of this mod allow me to play as the Anarchists?

I'm reading the information I can find, and have yet to see this.

Thanks.

Also, since the Anarchists lost because of lack of weapons, is there any weapons trading? The Anarchists lost because everyone in the world abandoned them regardless of the side they were on, and assisted Franco.

There has to be a way to redo this and convince someone to send weapons sooner.

Thanks.

Also, since the Anarchists lost because of lack of weapons, is there any weapons trading? The Anarchists lost because everyone in the world abandoned them regardless of the side they were on, and assisted Franco.

There has to be a way to redo this and convince someone to send weapons sooner.

Thanks.

Not Russia or Mexico.

In newer versions of the mod, Spain begins as Republican Spain, and after an event in Historical mode, a lot of cities turn Nationalist, leaving you (if you chose Azana) to fight them off.

There's no real way to "convince" the AI to send you units, but oil trades are still possible.

Not Russia or Mexico.

In newer versions of the mod, Spain begins as Republican Spain, and after an event in Historical mode, a lot of cities turn Nationalist, leaving you (if you chose Azana) to fight them off.

There's no real way to "convince" the AI to send you units, but oil trades are still possible.

Russia's first shipment of weapons was .. canned milk I believe. I can't remember exactly the item, but it wasn't weapons. A huge let down, and their long waiting for sending actual weapons was a huge burden.

France was going to support them before they ever asked for help from Russia. England convinced them to stay "neutral" which was total BS.

"In July, 1936, José Giral, the prime minister of the Popular Front government in Spain, requested aid from France. The prime minister, Leon Blum, agreed to send aircraft and artillery. However, after coming under pressure from Stanley Baldwin and Anthony Eden in Britain, and more right-wing members of his own cabinet, he changed his mind.

Baldwin and Blum now called for all countries in Europe not to intervene in the Spanish Civil War. In September 1936 a Non-Intervention Agreement was drawn-up and signed by 27 countries including Germany, Britain, France, the Soviet Union and Italy.

Benito Mussolini continued to give aid to General Francisco Franco and his Nationalist forces and during the first three months of the Nonintervention Agreement sent 90 Italian aircraft and refitted the cruiser Canaris, the largest ship in the Nationalists' fleet.

On 28th November the Italian government signed a secret treaty with the Spanish Nationalists. In return for military aid, the Nationalist agreed to allow Italy to establish bases in Spain in the case of a conflict with France. Over the next three months Mussolini sent to Spain 130 aircraft, 2,500 tons of bombs, 500 cannons, 700 mortars, 12,000 machine-guns, 50 whippet tanks and 3,800 motor vehicles.

Adolf Hitler also continued to give aid to General Francisco Franco and his Nationalist forces but attempted to disguise this by sending the men, planes, tanks, and munitions via Portugal. He also gave permission for the formation of the Condor Legion. The initial force consisted a Bomber Group of three squadrons of Ju-52 bombers; a Fighter Group with three squadrons of He-51 fighters; a Reconnaissance Group with two squadrons of He-99 and He-70 reconnaissance bombers; and a Seaplane Squadron of He-59 and He-60 floatplanes.

The Condor Legion, under the command of General Hugo Sperrle, was an autonomous unit responsible only to Franco. The legion would eventually total nearly 12,000 men. Sperrle demanded higher performance aircraft from Germany and he eventually received the Heinkel He111, Junkers Stuka and the Messerschmitt Bf109. It participated in all the major engagements including Brunete, Teruel, Aragon and Ebro.

The Communist Party, that had originally supported the Popular Front government in France, now organized demonstrations against Blum's policy of non-intervention. With the left-wing in open revolt against the government and a growing economic crisis, Blum decided to resign on 22nd June.

Maurice Thorez, the leader of the Communist Party in France, began to arrange the recruitment of soldiers to fight in the International Brigades for the Popular Front in Spain. The first group of volunteers left Toulouse on 29th July. The main recruitment centre was in Paris and from there they travelled by train to Perpignan. After spending the night in the town they were driven in trucks into Spain. Others went by sea via Marseilles.

The French supplied more men to fight with the Republican Army than any other country. Over 9,000 served, of whom some 3,000 were killed. It has been estimated that around half of all those who went were members of the Communist Party. The most prominent volunteer was André Malraux who organized a Republican air squadron."

Interestingly enough, I have about 10 books/pamplets on the spanish civil war next to me. Just got a book shipment in for my reading lists. Durruti is behind me on my shelf by Abel Paz. :)

Fun link, aircraft that didn't participate in the Spanish civil war, and why.

http://www.zi.ku.dk/personal/drnash/model/Spain/didnt.html

There's also a link for aircraft that did. Excellent resource.

I thought the Russians did help the Republicans extensively, but tried to get as much out of it for themselves by selling their vehicles and weapons at extremely high prices.

I thought the Russians did help the Republicans extensively, but tried to get as much out of it for themselves by selling their vehicles and weapons at extremely high prices.

Like all things, it's much more complicated than that.

Between 1934 and 1938 the government of the Soviet Union was anxious to gain the support of the Western states, and was therefore concerned to prove to them that it had ceased to be "revolutionary" and would no longer support revolutionary movements in other countries. Because of this, the U.S.S.R. only supported the Spanish Republican government's fight against fascism reluctantly and moderately. In order to reinforce the position of the Soviet Union the Spanish Communist Party allied itself with groups generally opposed to all forms of revolutionary change. It opposed expropriation of the landed estates and the factories by those who worked in them, and it was hostile to the popular militias.

The Soviet Union clearly directed the assistance it gave to the Spanish Republic toward the International Brigades and the loyal regular Spanish army. It made sure that arms, equipment, and other assistance were withheld from the militias and regions dominated by anarchists. At the same time, it sent secret police agents to Spain to kidnap, imprison and murder known opponents of Stalinism, especially, as Richards notes, ex-Communists who "knew too much.” The Soviet government also aimed to destroy the anarchist revolutionary movement in Spain which had proved such a formidable barrier to the Spanish Communist Party's attempts at political hegemony. These goals were far from secret, and were even published in various CP papers throughout the world. For example, on December 16, 1936, the Soviet party paper Pravda published an article which proclaimed, "As for Catalonia, the purging of the Trotskyists and the anarchosyndicalists has begun; it will be conducted with the same energy with which it was conducted in the U.S.S.R.” At the same time, the Spanish Communist Party supported the re-constitution of a regular police force, political police, and a regular army to replace the militias.


In short,

Russia helped the Republicans lose the war, by controlling their own brigade that was loyal to Stalin. They were supplied with state of the art weapons while the other units were denied such things.

They focused on controlling the international brigade, and forced others to join them and follow their orders, or be killed. Killing even those that wanted to leave after voluntarily joining (while the Anarchists let anyone leave freely at any time.)

Russia wasn't concerned about making money, they were concerned about controlling the Revolution and co-opting it.

They, along with the countless other countries who turned their back on the republic helped lose the war for the republic. Not win it.

Approximately 40,000 men from all over the world fought in the International Brigades. About one-third were killed, and many were permanently injured. Unfortunately, political repression of those who expressed criticism of Stalinism was a reality of daily life in the brigades. Jason Gurney, in Crusade in Spain [Faber & Faber, Ltd., London, 1974], who discusses the International Brigades from the point of view of the British volunteers, notes that André Marty, chief political commissar of the International Brigades, and a member of the Central Committee of the French Communist Party, admitted to having ordered the execution of 500 men belonging to the brigades for little or no reason except their political views. Gurney discusses some of the many decisions which were made by the brigade leaders for political reasons, with little regard for the disasters these caused.

Cecil Eby, in Between the Bullet and the Lie: American volunteers in the Spanish Civil War [Holt Reinhart & Winston, New York, 1969], discusses the desertions from the International Brigades which occurred from their inception and throughout their entire existence. The brigades were far from well trained, and were often not well equipped. Nevertheless, they had an authoritarian military officer structure, including political commissars for each battalion, and, despite populist rhetoric, discipline was often enforced harshly. Many volunteers felt this to be both inappropriate and wrong treatment for people who had freely chosen to come to fight. The political commissars were also often resented by volunteers from the Western countries, such as the U.S., Britain and France, who didn't want indoctrination, but information and discussion. Desertions and poor morale were due primarily to volunteers' growing distrust of the brigades' political and military hierarchy and resentment of the arbitrary (and, some felt, incompetent) behavior of the officers.

Ever since the Negrín ‘Government of Victory’ had been formed, it had been Stalinist practice to assassinate officers who would not follow in complete detail the Stalinist military policy. For an officer to let his men, for example, dynamite a town’s armament and other factories before making a forced retreat from it was to sign his own death warrant; a shot in the back from some Stalinist planted in his regiment. At the last National Council of the Socialist Party, the situation had grown too horrible even for Prieto, who presented a list of more than 200 Socialist officers who had been thus assassinated. The CNT had an even longer list of well-documented cases. But the facts heretofore had never leaked out of well-censored Spain.

Even in the Stalinist-dominated International Brigades, with their fierce discipline, a feeling of revolt mounted, and mutinies broke out. The military observer mentioned above estimated that at least 50 per cent of these internationals were in either secret or open revolt against the Stalino-bourgeois policy of crushing the workers’ revolution and supporting Spanish capitalism. Nearly 500 of them who had mutinied in favour of a workers’ revolution were in a prison camp under his immediate jurisdiction at Castel del Fels, near Sitges. Hundreds of others were scattered in concentration camps and prisons elsewhere in Loyalist Spain: there were 250, for example, in the State Prison at Barcelona, with the POUMists.

There's lots. Basically, any conception of Russian help has been grossly over exaggerated by any account of those there that I have ever seen.

If you wanted to accurately portray the Scenario, when civil war breaks out, oil from the U.S. should go from spain, to Franco. That was a rather key element at the start.

It might be fun to write all of this into civ terms, how the thing played out entirely in Civ Terms.

I still haven't even gotten to play it. Downloading the patch now.

As fun as it is to just sit and beat on Franco, shouldn't the Nationalists have defenses? I just walked right into every city and took it over.

That's no fun.

Any units in the cities when they switch change too.

In Beta 3 when I ran it last night, the Units did not switch after the split of spain. Each city was completely empty, although there were some spanish navel vessels.

I decided to not move any troops to not change the way the war would start if I didn't know, and every city ended up empty.

Going to play it again today.

started a new game, and the cities just don't start with any infantry.

each city needs to start with at least one infantry so it can't be taken just by moving there.

The cities for the Nationalists don't start with infantry. So that means I'd have to try and build infantry in enough time (don't think it's even possible) then, attack the infantry I built for them.

They should start with infantry.

Also, when the split occurs, I don't see the additional nation for contact or trade.

Considering the Coup leaders were weaker before the trading, it's pretty important they are able to look for support.

"We didn't know the full role of the Communists until 1939 when this famous Russian general defected and wrote articles in the Saturday Evening Post. Therein he described in detail how Stalin was using his secret police to wage a war against the Anarchists. He described Stalin's war within the war. He also described how the Stalinists stole the gold reserve of the Spanish Republic. He layed out a detailed analysis and prediction of the Nazi-Soviet pact. "

...removed for stupidity. :)

October 1936 through May 1937 was the main Russia attempt at turning Republican Spain into a Communist off shoot killing the workers.

Communist-led armies swept through Aragon, destroying many collectives and dismantling their organizations and, generally, bringing the area under the control of the central government. Throughout the Republican-held territories, the government, now under Communist domination, acted in accordance with the plan announced in Pravda on December 17, 1936: "So far as Catalonia is concerned, the cleaning up of Trotzkyist and Anarcho-Syndicalist elements there has already begun, and it will be carried out there with the same energy as in the U.S.S.R."

"What the Russian autocrats and their supporters fear most is that the success of libertarian Socialism in Spain might prove to their blind followers that the much vaunted "necessity of a dictatorship" is nothing but one vast fraud which in Russia has led to the despotism of Stalin and is to serve today in Spain to help the counter-revolution to a victory over the revolution of the workers and peasants."" - Rudolf Rocker

A former minister describes the situation as follows:

"The fact that is concealed by the coalition of the Spanish Communist Party with the left Republicans and right wing Socialists is that there has been a successful social revolution in half of Spain. Successful, that is, in the collectivization of factories and farms which are operated under trade union control, and operated quite efficiently. During the three months that I was director of propaganda for the United States and England under Alvarez del Vayo, then Foreign Minister for the Valencia Government, I was instructed not to send out one word about this revolution in the economic system of loyalist Spain. Nor are any foreign correspondents in Valencia permitted to write freely of the revolution that has taken place."

England assisted the Nationalists as well by closing off the strait at a couple key times where it was useful for the Nationalists.

England's ambassador had stated on a few occasions England's support for Franco, reasoning that England's business interests would best be served by Franco.

This was muted later by the fear that Franco would actually be a threat.

According to German sources, England was at that time supplying Franco with munitions through Gibraltar and, at the same time, providing information to Germany about Russian arms deliveries to the Republic.

The British policy of mild support for Franco was to be successful in preserving British interests in Spain, as the Germans soon discovered. A German Foreign Ministry note of October 1937 to the embassy in Nationalist Spain included the following observation: "That England cannot permanently be kept from the Spanish market as in the past is a fact with which we have to reckon. England's old relations with the Spanish mines and the Generalissimo's desire, based on political and economic considerations, to come to an understanding with England place certain limits on our chances of reserving Spanish raw materials to ourselves permanently."

In August, the American government urged the Martin Aircraft Company not to honor an agreement made prior to the insurrection to supply aircraft to the Republic, and it also pressured the Mexican government not to reship to Spain war materials purchased in the United States. An American arms exporter, Robert Cuse, insisted on his legal right to ship airplanes and aircraft engines to the Republic in December 1936, and the State Department was forced to grant authorization. Cuse was denounced by Roosevelt as unpatriotic, though Roosevelt was forced to admit that the request was quite legal. Roosevelt contrasted the attitude of other businessmen to that of Cuse as follows:

"Well, these companies went along with the request of the Government. There is the 90 percent of business that is honest, I mean ethically honest. There is the 90 percent we are always pointing at with pride. And then one man does what amounts to a perfectly legal but thoroughly unpatriotic act. He represents the 10 percent of business that does not live up to the best standards. Excuse the homily, but I feel quite deeply about it."

The actual history is interesting, especially if (like me) one doesn't know much about it. But how does that translate into anything useful for the mod? I've been playing Open Mode lately, but recall the notifications of the Spanish Civil War in Random/Historical as being of little consequence to the game at hand -- no matter which nation I played (unless I played as Spain, which I have not), what could I do during the RTW SCW to help MY cause? Could I gift units/money/something and gain... open borders? an ally against my enemies? or something which would destabilize MY enemies somehow? As I said much earlier, this would be great for a What-If type scenario.

This reminds me about propaganda: these units are currently not very useful in the mod, other than to spread your propaganda to a captured city so you can gain happiness/science/whatever (though perhaps this has been removed from the most-recent version, making them even less useful?). In Open Mode I get notices often from random countries asking me to convert to whichever faction they follow. So what? That would make them happy, and would make my current pseudo-allies unhappy. Well, I can stay as I am and my pseudo-allies are somewhat happy (though likely still plotting against me) and the requestor is somewhat angrier -- this doesn't seem to do much for me in game terms as there is still about the same amount of countries who are happy/angry with me. They are angrier that I invade someone, no matter which political flag I am waving, though why Brazil (democratic?) should care if I (China, democratic with a dash of communism) invade Siam (fascist?) seems a bit out of whack. Perhaps the faction effects should be beefed up (EVERYONE has open borders with EVERYONE in Open Mode -- does that make sense? wouldn't some faction maybe not want to trade with their 'worst enemies'?). Or perhaps make them a victory condition -- if your faction controls XX% of the world, you win (obviously there is historical precedent for this, as WWII was the start of the Cold War). Hey, I might convert if they offered to give me some tanks.

In game terms, with historical terms, since everyone was against Republican spain for one reason or another (and to varying degrees), you should be able to as any country decide to help them. This would make all other countries dislike you by 1 degree point, but would give you a friendly country that had a lot of gold, and the need to spend it.

Republican Spain would have won provided anyone helped them. They were better trained, better organized, and had a cause worth fighting for against the coup. All they needed was mutually beneficial support.

Republican Spain was filthy rich in gold, and couldn't find anyone to sell them things. If any other country had decided to help out, they would have profited handsomely, and that should be reflected.

Further, people from all over the world flocked to spain to fight Fascism, so being on the "right" side of the cause should have some additional benefits.

i think giving units is a workable idea but shouldnt the nation giving get there units that arent destroyed back w/ increased xp points?

Another potent idea would be to have the Republican side lose several food resources at the split, and have cities large enough that this caused problems.

A large issue in the war was that the geography of Spain made it so the Nationalists had the majority of food, while the Republic starved.

And then another idea I think would make sense would be to have the Republic "draft" troops that are weaker, while the Nationalists would not have such ability. This would include the Women fighting, the International brigades fighting, and the general ease of which troops, although lacking many weapons, were available to the republicans.

I remember, I think it was Civ 3 where you could draft troops that were weaker. I don't remember if that's in Civ 4, but it would work quite well to indicate the differences in a dynamic way.

Another great idea would be to have the Nationalists as Christians, and the Republicans without religion, ideally with the civic.

The Republicans should have no churches or religion of any kind. The Nationalists should have church buildings.

Another thing on resources, the Nationalists should send mining resources to Germany, they required it for their war machines, and Spain supported them.

If say, the Nationalists lose in Road to War, Germany would have to find new resources to build.

And they shouldn't be called fascists, they were a Christian Conservative Dictatorship. They only pretended to be Fascist in propaganda, with only one actual fascist policy. The Falange (the Spanish fascist party) were isolated and ignored after the war.

In case you hadn't noticed, religion does not exist in RtW.

According to wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Civil_War everyone "referred to them as the Fascists or Francoists".

They had philosophys of dictatorship, nationalism, centralisation and the ellimination of beauracracy. They also were hard-line anti-communist.

All traits of Fascism.

Another great suggestion would be putting all of your suggestions in one post :)

In case you hadn't noticed, religion does not exist in RtW.

According to wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Civil_War everyone "referred to them as the Fascists or Francoists".

They had philosophys of dictatorship, nationalism, centralisation and the ellimination of beauracracy. They also were hard-line anti-communist.

All traits of Fascism.

Religion does not exist, but it should. It was an important part.

Everyone referred to them as Fascists but it was propaganda.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falange

(I think we could use wikipedia to counter arguments all day. Funny how that works.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisco_Franco

"Although Franco and Spain under his rule adopted some trappings of fascism, he, and Spain under his rule, are not generally considered to be fascist; among the distinctions, fascism entails a revolutionary aim to transform society, where Franco and Franco's Spain did not seek to do so, and, to the contrary, although authoritarian, were conservative and traditional. Stanley Payne, the preeminent scholar on fascism and Spain notes: "scarcely any of the serious historians and analysts of Franco consider the generalissimo to be a core fascist". The consistent points in Franco's long rule included above all authoritarianism, nationalism, the defence of Catholicism and the family, anti-Freemasonry, and anti-Communism."

Another great suggestion would be putting all of your suggestions in one post :)

I'm not hurting anything by adding a ton of random information in the thread.

At worst, if I'm ignored posting in here, what's the harm?

I know a bit of coding myself, I'm considering editing the situations to be historically accurate on my own accord taking Road to War, and focusing solely on the Spanish Civil War.

The issue with adding religion is really twofold. One; since it's not in RtW at the moment, it would be difficult to put back in and would not work well with the current setup (I think)
Two; What would be the purpose? Sure, it is historically accurate, but it wouldn't change gameplay one bit except to create the problem of adding another ideaology.

The issue with adding religion is really twofold. One; since it's not in RtW at the moment, it would be difficult to put back in and would not work well with the current setup (I think)
Two; What would be the purpose? Sure, it is historically accurate, but it wouldn't change gameplay one bit except to create the problem of adding another ideaology.

Reasonable response.

I'm just tossing things around. If they don't make sense, explain why. I'm likely to agree after I've considered it some more.

It's the accuracy / gameplay trade off. So far, The Spanish Civil War has very little accuracy in the sense that there isn't any actual detail to it.

An extremely high view without detail.

So an example that would be valuable. Resources.

Germany required Spanish Nationalist resources.

The principle resource was wolfram (or tungsten) ore from German-owned mines in Spain. Wolfram was essential to Germany for its advanced precision engineering and therefore for armament production. Despite Allied attempts to buy all available supplies, which rocketed in price, and diplomatic efforts to influence Spain, supplies to Germany continued until August 1944. Payment for wolfram was effectively set against the Spanish debt to Germany. Other minerals included iron ore, zinc, lead and mercury.


Thus, the resource could be added to Spain, as well as other countries as be relied on for Germany for building units. Whatever is historically accurate.

Is that a reasonable addition that would add to gameplay and accuracy?

Here are some points to consider:

1. Religion was replaced with Ideology. In the era covered, what was more important? Ideology!
2. SCW is a prelude to World War II. What is this Mod about? World War II (not SCW).
3. There is already a great SCW Mod existing, 1936 Spain.

hate to sound cluelss but i didnt kno theres a scw mod any info on how to download is welcome

Spain 1936 Mod: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=191582&highlight=1936+spain

i think adding religion to the game is a good idea. but what about adding more types of ideology. werent certian countries still under monarchy rule.
Also shouldnt there be more than one ideology in some cities, many in eastern europe liked the idea of communism.

Also shouldnt there be more than one ideology in some cities, many in eastern europe liked the idea of communism.

That's going to be the case in the Huge Europe map.

Spain 1936 Mod: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=191582&highlight=1936+spain

Doesn't work with the new patch, hasn't been active since February.

I get the drift though, you're not interested. I'll find somewhere else to use my time.

yea noticed that about 3.13 patch

A point to consider - I got this event just now in my game as the UK, a leftover from the religious random events, and it could be tweaked slightly to represent foreign aid:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=185355&stc=1&d=1218292201

A point to consider - I got this event just now in my game as the UK, a leftover from the religious random events, and it could be tweaked slightly to represent foreign aid:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=185355&stc=1&d=1218292201

Great idea!

i got something similar to that as UK to offer supplies to china, i was thinking, would it be possible to give hammers to aid a certian nation, for instance Moscow, Russia gives 90 hammers to Madrid, Spain. i know theres something along those lines with food, but they happen at random. this would also help in the aspect of some nations indirect aid to one side.

i think though were giving ideas to a ship thats already sailed being that UEs already released.