We know nothing. I mean, we've got a fair idea of how to build some roads and irrigate the lands around but we don't know anything we can show off to other civs. :(
So we'll have to get going then. With the plan as it appears now, we won't have a city for a couple of turns at least and so we'll have to make up for this by refining our research. I would assume that we all want to go for Monarchy first off so that we can cut our corruption and research important techs quicker. With nothing to begin with we'll need Alphabet, Code of Laws, Ceremonial Burial and Monarchy to achieve our dream of King Dell's coronation. Apart from these techs, which do not necessarily need to be researched in that order - maybe we want CBur before CoL? - what do we want to fall back on? I would like to suggest Bronze Working so that we can build the Colossus when we come across a suitable SSC site and also so we can get on the way to Currency and Trade. Those who remember the succession games that began on Hawaii might like to suggest Map Making in case we find ourselves surrounded by vast oceans, while those whose strategies do not rely on WLTP days for growth might like to propose Masonry for the Pyramids or even so that the paranoid can build the Great Wall.
Science will dictate our options and all our future actions will depend on how techinically advanced our troops are and which improvements we can build in our cities. We need you to play a part in this most important of the empire's concerns!

I'm always quite fond of bronze working to build Colossus and start a nice SSC. I always hate to lose the Colossus to another civ as the Colossus remains active for a very long time and thus gives you a big advantage in the tech race.

If I had to proritise the order we get the techs in then I would go:

Alphabet
Ceremonial Burial
Code of Laws
Monarchy
Bronze Working

The Colossus is just to valuable to let another Civ get, but, of course, Monarchy Monarchy Monarchy!

One often finds that there must be a detour of one tech before they get to Monarchy (barring a good hut popping or tech trade). I think it has something to do with the idea of NOT being offered three techs in a row from the same area or something. Should we NOT have a choice of a Monarchy prerequisite (or Monarchy itself), then a detour through bronze working would not be bad (or map making should we find ourselves on a very small island).

My first choice would be ceremonial burial as I find on diety level I do build some temples early.

Now, there was some discussion a long while back about which techs will be available to study each turn and which ones will not. I seem to remember that someone may have found that the first tech in alphabetical order will remain available each and every time. Is this true? Anyone have an idea on this?

If it is true, I'd suggest the following:

Ceremonial Burial
Code of Laws
Alphabet
[Likely detour tech]
Monarchy

With Alphabet being first in alphabetical order, it would guarantee that we'd get three techs in before we'd have to detour (after alphabet, I think that bronze working is the next highest in alphabetical order). Taking our detour later would allow us to know more about our starting position before we have to make a choice as to a 'detour tech' and let us decide better if we'd like Bronze Working, Map Making, Writing, or whatever.

Like I said, this is based on a theroy that may actually be all wet. I'll have to go look this up and report back - unless anyone would like to verify this with their own wisdom.

Since we have not begun producing our first beaker, we can't see our science. Using Kev's suggestion:

Note: Assumed Tech choices are in Boldface.

FIRST ADVANCE CHOICES:
(Done: none)

Alphabet (Alp)
Bronze Working (BW)
Ceremonial Burial (CB)
Horseback Riding (HBR)
Masonry (Mas)
Pottery (Pot)
Warrior Code (WC)



SECOND CHOICES:
(Done: Alp)

Bronze Working
Ceremonial Burial
Code of Laws (CoL)
Horseback Riding
Map Making (MM)
Writing

(Unavailable on this turn: Mas, Pot, WC)


THIRD CHOICES:
(Alphabet, CB)

Bronze Working
Map Making
Masonry
Mysticism
Pottery
Warrior Code
Writing (Wri)

(Unavailable on this turn: Code of Laws, Horseback Riding)


4th CHOICES:
(Alp, CB, BW)

Code of Laws
Currency
Horseback Riding
Masonry
Mysticism
Pottery
Warrior Code

(Unavailable on this turn: Map Making, Writing)


5th CHOICES:
(Alp, CB, Wri, CoL)

Currency
Horseback Riding
Map Making
Monarchy
Writing

(Unavailable on this turn: Masonry, Mysticism, Pottery, Warrior Code)


This is in keeping with Kev's proposal, which was very logical for Monarchy ASAP.


If we take Alp-CB-BW-CoL-Mon, then Choice 6 will be:

Currency
Map Making
Masonry
Mysticism
Pottery
Warrior Code
Writing


Either Way, the path after #6 could be: Curr-Lit-Mys-PHILOSOPHY-TRADE

The choices that this point (#12) would be:
HBR, MM, Mas, Med, Pot, Rep, WC.

BUILD MARCO POLO, Backfill techs as necessary thru swapping, plus direct the AI research.


This would get us Philosophy at Tech #10, barring earlier swaps or Hut tech.

Wonders can be "started" earlier, and switched when we get the tech, like Colossus and Hanging Gardens and Pyramids. We will not be able to obtain all 4.... the most Critical is Colossus, given the choices, as all the others can be captured. HG is nice to have in the Colossus city, but not essential. Marco Polo will be more valuable, in terms of Gold and Techs, than any wonder in the early game. So very likely, the 2 key wonders will be Colossus and Marco Polo. Marco Polo also make the Great Library (300 shields) an almost total waste for the Human, and MPE is only 200 shields.

So.... them's my thoughts....

EDIT: Shorted writeup quite a bit.

Dear Kev!

Are you sure, that we can get Code of Laws BEFORE Alphabet? :)

Dear Starlifter!

If you can get by some Divine Power knowledge about possible future technology trees, can you reveal - what result of first picking Ceremonial Burial?
Something deep inside my heart whispers me that in Second Picking we would have Alphabet in any case - then main problem we will get in Third picking - where some blasted luck can hide Code of Laws from valid picking. (Usually it is reason for me go in that chain: Alphabet - Ceremonial Burial - Code of Laws - smthng - Monarchy. In Deity level AI don't like give us Code of Laws after Alphabet, and Monarchy after Code of Laws. I don't know - why, I simply know it ;).)
You show what technology branches appeared after Alphabet as first pick, then why do not go in Ceremonial Burial path picking?

Brgds & thnks, Alex.

Eep. OK, ignore my blathering.

Kev is too fried to pay very close attention to himself. And his new habit of referring to himself in the third person continues to worry all..

Upon edit: All things considered, I'd rather take a detour tech that would allow us to at least begin a wonder. This would lead me to choose Bronze Working or Map Making over Writing (though I do like those early dips). Even with Map Making, we could have the SSC start the Lighthouse and switch to the Colossus once we have BW. We could even have another city start the same wonder in an effort to get some other ancient wonder - being the domain of the Domestic Minister anyway.

Excuse me for bothering, but - another issue.
I'm not sure, but if you know that Creator of Our World (known as Smash) is known by his cunning & devilish mind, then - I would vote for Bronze Working as first picking choice.
Neighbouring Russians can be good excuse to produce our first Phalanx as soon as possible. (Good & benevolent neighbours in our conditions is more dangerous then Barbarian till "barbarian attack" time.) By the way - if nearest hut reveal some money or knowledge to us, it is advisable by my humble opinion go:
1) to the Horseback Raiding BEFORE Philosophy or some another hanky-panky highbrow gadgets, because Warriors is waste of production by its final meaning and you MUST to reveal our map as soon as possible (if it have great landmasse);
2) to the Philosophy BEFORE some Horses**t Raiding or another Iron Pantyhose racket, because early scientific boost is more important then Map revealing (if we is placed on some lonely island). By the way - Trireme is 40 Shields, that is advisable to spend on some Early Wonder, because Knowledge is Power, - not some wooden bathtub in high South waters. (We are on South - near South Pole, as we can see - thank to Starlifter.) Do you know about South seas? Roaring Forties, maybe? It's advisable for me go to Caravel construction & go to open sea on the Real Ship - not in cat's tray ;)! This is simpler via Philosophy path, not directly through Map Making :)

Then let's pop the hut - see results - reveal some map - come to Monarchy - and ONLY AFTER that decide our scientific path: swords or plough will be our weapons. (Our scouting around would reveal enough vital information till that moment.)

Thnks & brgds, Alex.

Since this game is partly educational: Starlifter, would you say more about how and why Marco Polo is so important for *this* game.

I do like your proposed early tech sequence, but of course, game events have a way of interfering with plans... :)

Excuse me again, but I didn't see another subtle moment in Starlifter tech sequences in time.

It's advisable, that Second pick (after Alphabet) must be Code of Laws, but no Ceremonial Burial. Usually we can't get Code of Laws AFTER Alphabet, then we must take this opportunity without any second thought. (Excuse me - this possible Russians in our vicinity IS good Second & Third & any other else thoughts in our situation.) It's very big chance that AI will give us Ceremonial Burial as Third picking! And it's very fat chance that we will get Monarchy as Fourth picking in this game! Yum... Yum... What's chewy proposition... Our wheels is begin spin really fast if Monarchy will be our Fourth pick!!!

Dear Starlifter, can you provide us by this information:

Can Divine Power give us Ceremonial Burial as Third pick (After Alphabet & Code of Laws.) (I think probability of that is more then 80%.)

Can it give us Monarchy as Fourth pick?? (After Alphabet, Code of Laws & Ceremonial Burial). (I think probability of that is around 55-60%).

If - YES on both question, then WE GO!

Thnks & brgds, Alex.

Dear Starlifter, can you provide us by this information:

Can Divine Power give us Ceremonial Burial as Third pick (After Alphabet & Code of Laws.) (I think probability of that is more then 80%.)

Can it give us Monarchy as Fourth pick?? (After Alphabet, Code of Laws & Ceremonial Burial). (I think probability of that is around 55-60%).

If - YES on both question, then WE GO!

1. Your proposed sequence:
A-CoL-CB is not possible. 0% chance, because the choices at #3 would be: BW, MM, Mas, Pot, WC, and Wri.

However, this would work:

A-CoL-BW-CB-Monarchy


2. Not possible at Deity to have Monarchy as your #4 tech, unless you get certain hut help, which is next to impossible.

What is slightly more possible is if you get exactly one Hut tech, and it is one of the #3 techs --- and do it before finishing #2, or get real lucky and pop the tech your are researching in #3. But you are still going to pay #5 science to research Monarchy... there is no reasonable way around that. If you pop lots of huts, and get more techs, you are almost guaranteed to pay #6 or #7 tech const to get Monarchy. The AI is slightly more predisposed to give you semi-worthless techs like MapMaking and Warrior Code and especially Horseback Riding, when it yields a tech early on. Tech like CoL are possible, but (in my own testing) less likely if those 1st 3 are still available.

One tech you pretty much never want is Philosophy. You don't get the free advance if a hut gives it to you.



PS, The techs you can choose at any given point are not random... With a given choice of prior techs, you can predict exactly what you will have available upon completing the next advance. Normally, I don't bother.... I just take it as it comes. But since this is a slow paced game, I discuss it for the benefit of all. :)

PPS, The 5-techs to Monarchy is well known by many people... I never deviate from it anymore, in a standard rules random map, since fast Monarchy is so much more efficient than Despotism. The only real question is what to take at tech #3.... usually you don't know enough of the map to take MapMaking, so BW & Wri are the only real choices, depending on how well your capital city is doing making its spawn settler(s) before starting the wonder. High shield output means take BW, low means take writing, as a general guideline. The one not chosen should generally be taken at #6 (right after Monarchy), assuming Raging Hordes.

I just noticed the other posts of you and Kev.

by A_Bashkuev:
Are you sure, that we can get Code of Laws BEFORE Alphabet?
???? If I said CoL comes before Alphabet, it is a typo. I think I always started with Alphabet, right?

by A_Bashkuev:
If you can get by some Divine Power knowledge about possible future technology trees, can you reveal - what result of first picking Ceremonial Burial?
In early game, I know all the basic combos. Anyone can open a game and use Cheat Mode, plus manual entry. Slow Thinker and others have refined the basic algorithm of tech order, and ST even made a DOS program to compute it. If you choose Ceremonial Burial first, you will have only 2 choices at tech #2: Alphabet and HBR. You would take Alp. Then CoL would be blocked at #3, so you take MM, Wri, BW, Mas, Mys, Pot, or WC. Normally, take BW (or Wri). Tech #4 will block MM and Wri (assuming BW at #3), and CoL will be there. Take it. Then at #5, Choose Monarchy!!

Then get to Philosophy as quickly and directly as possible, and get Trade. Then do what is necessary, after using Marco Polo to strategicaly swap techs, swap maps, direct AI research, extort gold, etc. Get to Monothiesm & JSB quickly. Game situation pretty much dictates research after Trade.


by MonkE:
Since this game is partly educational: Starlifter, would you say more about how and why Marco Polo is so important for *this* game.
The game is at Deity, and the AI has scinece and production advantages that are most efficently delt with by only discovering techs you actually need in the early game... Marco Polo can yeild over a dozen techs, at the lesiure and timing that the human wants. It can tell you exactly who is building what wonder, and in what city. In some cases, you can even cause th AI to build a wonder for you... you simply need to go capture when they are done, or when you want it. In some cases, you even have something better: the AI builds it in a non-capital city, and you see it with Marco Polo, and simply take a Dip and go revolt or subvert the city. This allows you to concentrate on the critical wonders... the ones that muct bet built in your SSC (Super Science City).

You can do lots of things with MPE.... ally, extort, check wealth, check empire expansion, direct AI research, gift the Key Civ, map swap. MPE is almost too powerful for a Human to possess in early game. The earlier you get it, the more powerful it is. I do not give up Colossus to get MPE, if it comes to that choice. I will give up Pyramids, HG, and other ancient wonders, however.

But my suggestions should not be construed as the only way to do things... there are many strategies, and almost all will eventually work. Again, my suggestions (like early MPE) should be viewed as one possiblility of our empire. People may want to try such things in their own games, even if we (as a Democracy) choose other ways to go.




Back to A_Bashkuev:
You show what technology branches appeared after Alphabet as first pick, then why do not go in Ceremonial Burial path picking?
You can switch the order, in that particular case. The key is that Tech #3 will block both CB & CoL (unless you have both A & BW, since these 2 are alphabetically before Cer in the rules.txt).

There are only ways to do this:

A-CB-BW-CoL-Mon
A-CoL-BW-CB-Mon
CB-A-BW-CoL-Mon
A-BW-CB-CoL-Mon
CB-A-BW-CoL-Mon
BW-A-CB-CoL-Mon
BW-CB-A-CoL-Mon

(Assuming BW as junk tech)

Choose whatever you desire at Tech #3 (a wonder tech is good, as Kev suggested).

Without hut help & swap help, that is the only way to get to Monarchy by #5.



Big note: All my discussions about specific tech order is for this game only, which has zero starting techs. Due to the way the game works, if you have a starting techs, you need to recompute what will be available. However, the cluster of CoL, CB, and Monarchy are all Choice C techs... that is, every 3rd turn, these 3 will not be available, except for the 1st one as listed in the order of the Rules.txt (and the link in my Signature block... see the Official Tech Abbreviations section for the exact order)
Alphabet is a Choice A tech, along with MM and Wri. BW, Mas, Mys, Pot, and WC are Choice B techs.


Starting from ZERO inital techs, Choice A will be blocked. Alphabet is available because it is 1st Alphabetically. When you have 1 tech, Choice B will be blocked (except for BW, since it is 1st Alphabetically). When you have 2 techs, Choice C will be blocked....When you have 3 techs, Choice A is blocked again. This cycle continues the entire game. Just remember the first tech alphabetically (of all possible ones you have the prerequisites for) will be exempt from exclusion, and be listed as an available choice.


Hence, the choices are not random ;).

Dear Starlifter!

From my very old experience (when I was restless & wanted to have my score as high as possible) when I had unforgivable Sin of Saving-and-Reload behaviour I've met couple of Philosophy hut science advantage.
The First time of such experience was in my most innocent times, when I didn't know about AI would warn me about somebody had already acquired Philosophy.
Well, I pop blasted hut didn't find second Technology & decide that some blasted Viking had already got blasted thing. After couple of turns, when I've got my researched technology I've got... surprise, surprise! - another Technology immediately after in the same turn!
I remembered this wisdom & popped another huts without any fears. Every time when I popped Philosophy, I've got my next technology after finishing Research on already researched.

Well, I've got another problem after that - if you pop hut & find Invention or Gunpowder all other huts will never yield you technology at all! (But it is a good thing, because blasted neighbours never get any real weird thing from the huts after that moment. Let's imagine that some jerk acquire Nuclear missile from the hut in Middle Ages... Whew... It's scary proposition! :) ).

Thnks & brgds, Alex.

Dear Starlifter!

I never heard earlier about three tiers of Techs in Civ II.
It's very intriguing & interesting. Can you provide me some link to lists of all three tiers in alphabetical order, please?

It'll impact my game skill in very sudden direction.

(I computed my probabilities from some datasheet created by me after couple of hundreds games. OK - I know now this was a complete waste, but if you provide me this list, well... I will got my result in any case!)

Oh, maybe somebody knows about probability in Second Skill acquiring in Heroes of Might & Magic III? I've got some weird spreadsheet about this probabilities, but it is - from coockoo nest!
For example: Leadership acquiring in this spreadsheet is 10 8 5 3 - 6 5 3 where Might Heroes is (Kni, Over, Beast....)
OK, do you see fun here? Knight can get his Leadership Secondary Skill with factor "10" probabilities. Joke is - all Knights have already got this Secondary Skill! Then - it's probability must be - of course - higher. But after couple of hundreds tests (I gave to Hero couple mils of Exp via Disk Editor thing) I found that - this probs don't work: if we count all Skills around; if we count only Advanced getting, and if we try to count all getting from Advanced to Expert level.

Well, this question is out of topic here, but maybe somebody something know about this subject. (I just like all Probability issues :) ).

Thnks & brgds, Alex.

Thanks All!

I found it - in "search" mode print "oedo's unfinished" (courtesy of Smash) & in some tread you will found Smash's link on some very old tread on Apolyton forum where some guy "Oedo" reveal this Mystery.

Thnks & brgds, Alex.

Hmmm... I see my entire post that I made in reply yesterday is missing for some reason. My browser crashed last night, and that must have trashed it.

Anyway, Oedo and Slow Thinker figured & refined the details. Here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=777&highlight=Oedo%2A+AND+unfinished) is a link.

Tech availability is basically for 2 of 3 times, based on the order of the techs in the rules.txt file. The first tech (alphabetically) is always available, even if it would normally be hidden. I simply group the techs into 3 piles... A, B, and C. Then follow the pattern each time you get to choose and advance. You adjust the pattern based on the extra techs you have, or that you discover via huts & swapping.

Oedo also discoverd the Oedo year pattern of xxxoxxxoxxxoxxxo for coming out of Anarchy after a revolution or gov't change. The science pattern is ooxooxoox.

I had unforgivable Sin of Saving-and-Reload behaviour
Actually, the manual suggests save-and-reload, but it's more fun to play without reloading.

Can you provide me some link to lists of all three tiers in alphabetical order, please?
You already have it.... it's the techs listed in your rules.txt. Every 3rd tech is part of the same group.

I computed my probabilities from some datasheet created by me after couple of hundreds games. OK - I know now this was a complete waste,
It was a mystery of the game for all of us for a long time until Oedo figured out the simple pattern.

Oh, maybe somebody knows about probability in Second Skill acquiring in Heroes of Might & Magic III?
No idea. Never played it, and probably never will... too many games in the world, so I only play a few :).

Well, I've got another problem after that - if you pop hut & find Invention or Gunpowder all other huts will never yield you technology at all!
Invention (by anyone) stops the Hut discoveries. Since Gunpowder is after Invention, it should not be possible to get GP via a hut., assuming standard game files. If you or someone finds an exception, please post the.SAV and rules.txt and game.txt.

Assuming I'm understanding you correctly here, any of these paths will get us to Monarchy in 5 tech choices? If so, then I would suggest doing Ceremonial Burial first and follow that path, just to have temples available ASAP should we decide to build any this early. I typically play to avoid having to build temples for awhile, but I know different folks have different strategies and styles; we should be prepared.

Agree with Leowind.

Did anyone notice that #3 and #5 are the same on that list. Ah, I think they're both good to go!

:)

Hmm, I would prefer to go:

BW-CB-A-CoL-Mon

Temples early on are not essential, we would only need them once we get a city to 3 pop and in Despotism martial law can keep the pesants happy until 5 pop. The Colossus however is vital to our SSC city and we definatley do not want the AI getting to that first and building it in a poorly placed city as usual (so even conquest wouldn't get us it's full value). Also on a side note, we get Phalanx's from it as a bonus.

Assuming I'm understanding you correctly here, any of these paths will get us to Monarchy in 5 tech choices?
Right. As long as one plays a non-scenario above the level of Chieftain, it is not possible to advance to Monarchy in less than 5 techs (unless you have a certain Hut combination or you get it from an opponent that has Monarchy before you reach tech 5).

@ Kev: Nice catch!

Here is the complete list of routes to 5-tech Monarchy:

EDIT: Moved this to Post #23 because of redundancy and simplified wording.

So which path are we going to chose? Someone could always start another thread with a poll of all the 6 different options.

Originally posted by Dell19
So which path are we going to chose? Someone could always start another thread with a poll of all the 6 different options.

A poll eh? Sounds like the Science Advisors job...

If a poll is done, I suggest:

1. A-BW-CB-CoL-Mon
2. BW-A-CB-CoL-Mon
3. xxx-CB-A-CoL-Mon
4. A-CB-yyy-CoL-Mon
5. A-CoL-yyy-CB-Mon
6. CB-A-yyy-CoL-Mon


Where xxx choices are:

Bronze Working (or use path #2)
Ceremonial Burial (must use path #6)
Horseback Riding
Masonry
Pottery
Warrior Code


Where yyy choices are:

Bronze Working
Map Making
Masonry
Mysticism
Pottery
Warrior Code
Writing

Note: If someone wants BW as the extra tech, I'd say Option 3 is "best".

This encompasses all the options for 5-tech Monarchy.

The hut Pop may settle it, if we get a tech. Our choices would likely become #3 in that case.

BW first, then streamline Monarchy. Then I personally would Prioritize: Philosophy, Invention (for Leo's), Demo, Railroads, Robotics. But, of course, it depends on what comes up. For now, I'll say:
BW-CB-CoL-Mon. Horseback Riding if none of those are available.

Instead of making a separate poll for this, I'll just use this thread to get people to suggest which course of action to take. We all seem to be agreed on taking Monarchy as the first tech, and although we may get a tech from the hut which could throw our plans into the water whence we came, starlifter's recommendation of getting there as soon as possible seems to make good sense to me. If you have a preference on how to get there then please post it here and we will let the President use his initiative based on the opinions in this thread. Based on the posts here already, I say that we should go for CB as the first option, rather than CoL, and BW as the junk tech for the possibility of the Colossus. We shan't need a temple too early though if we build warriors for exploration and settlers for colonisation. :goodjob:

we may get a tech from the hut which could throw our plans into the water whence we came
Actually, since we will not have founded the 1st city at the pop of the visible hut, our 1st tech research will not yet be chosen. If the hut gives us a tech, it just means we use path#3:

3. xxx-CB-A-CoL-Mon

and start our research at CB, then A & CoL.... and we'll have Monarchy available at #5. :)

So in this case, a tech from this particular hut will actaully speed up our Monarchy ! But I still hope for a horseman, or even anarcher.

> But I still hope for a horseman, or even anarcher.

Don't we already have anarchywrksbest? ;-)

Anyway: I'd go with option 3.

Originally posted by heliogabalus
> But I still hope for a horseman, or even anarcher.

Don't we already have anarchywrksbest? ;-)

:lol:

I"d like to see our "junk tech" be Bronze Working. It's nice to have Phalanxes early on, as well as the Colossus, of course. I would even gladly support option 3 and take BW first, then on to Monarchy.

In my games, I always try to go A-CB-BW-CoL-Mon.

That is, of course, if I'm playing on an easier level, in that case I would go for BW before CB :)

Get that wonder on the road!

As I've said, BW should be first, IMHO. Phalanxes are very nice to have, and Colossus is one of the best wonders. Since we have a Horseman, Horseback Riding isn't a priority for now. :)

Originally posted by mordhiem
If I had to proritise the order we get the techs in then I would go:

Alphabet
Ceremonial Burial
Code of Laws
Monarchy
Bronze Working

The Colossus is just to valuable to let another Civ get, but, of course, Monarchy Monarchy Monarchy!

Hi guys, I'm back ! (sort of, I lost my connection to the net at home, so I have to resort to Internet cafe's)

I completely agree with Mordheim, and luckily I will be in position to decide ;).

I do not agree on the value of the colossos however, but that will be discussed in other threads I suppose. I find it very usefull to have the Colossus in foreign hands, and then get all my caravans over there! that makes great use of vthe extra trade, and ALL our cities may be able to draw th rewards.

Since both the duke and I were in strong favor of Monarchy first, and nobody challenged us in the elections, I firmly support Mordheims row of techs.

Yours truly, Germanos, Co-Science Advisor

Since both the duke and I were in strong favor of Monarchy first, and nobody challenged us in the elections, I firmly support Mordheims row of techs.
Just be aware that it is not possible to research them in the order Mordheim listed ;).


I do not agree on the value of the colossos however, but that will be discussed in other threads I suppose. I find it very usefull to have the Colossus in foreign hands, and then get all my caravans over there! that makes great use of vthe extra trade, and ALL our cities may be able to draw th rewards.
That is some very interesting and creative thinking & strategy! In fact, if it were possible to direct the specific AI civ to build the Colossus in the proper place & on the right terrain, it would be of more practical use. Unfortunately, the AI can neither grow cities fast enough, nor can they add the correct improvements fast enough to make good use of the Colossus.

There is another huge downside to allowing the AI to build it... the demand of the colossus city will likely be met, and most subsequent caravans & freight will be non-demanded, which means you don't get diddly, relative to a demanded cargo.... and if every city is delivering diddly cargos, it will take a minimum of 3 times the number of C/F to get the same result.... and in the era of triremes & even Caravels & Galleons, that will (for practical purposes) increase the required sealift capacity by 200% to 300%, which will cripple shield production and prevent a successful Republic, and maybe even prohibit any early Democracy (the gov't, that is) consideration, at least until all of the required 40 to 70 caravels are upgraded to galleons (galleons=no unhappiness).

Naturally, I don't even need to review how loss of Colossus in the SSC would be a crippling blow, so without Colossus, a non-SSC strategy would be the best science route. We would definitely need Naval Superiority and Magellan's Expedition, and probably Lighthouse to balance this from our (the Human's) perspective.



There is one more much less obvious consequence to letting the AI get the Colossus, with the intent that all our cities trade with it. Assuming the AI builds it properly, grows the city, gets rid of non-trade squares, removes overlap of it's nearby cities, etc. etc., then we still have an issue: The location of Colossus is fixed.... e.g., it does not move. We want the Colossus to progressively move further and further from our cities as teh game progresses, to increase trade bonus value (which is heavily distance dependent). If the AI colossus is far away, it is worthless to us in early & maybe even mid game. If it is close, it is worthless to us in Late and very likely even mid game.

So.... how to get the Colossus to increase in distance from us as time goes by??? The answer was learned in the American West, a long time ago: If you can't bring the horse to the water, then bring the water to the horse. What does this mean? It means that if you can't move the colossus city, then you must move the cities the colossus trades with! If the AI has the Colossus, we cannot move the Colossus, and we cannot move out own cities.... hence we cannot take the horse to water, and even worse, we cannot bring the water to the horse.

Therefore, we need to build the Colossus... and then we select the AI cities with which to trade: in early game, our colossus trade partners will be relatively closeby... as time goes passes, we will squash those AI trading partner cities like insects (and have domestic routes alread working), and bring the water (trade) to the horse (our Colossus) by sending our rehomed colossus caravans (the water) to progressively more and more distant cities, with porgressively faster (and higher capacity) sealift!



So the Colossus is one of the few wonders that is actually critical to build in a city that can commit to using all, or almost all, workers in Ocean and other trade squares! And the Colossus city must grow, with higher priority status than almost anything in the Empire, except for things that actually affect survival. If done right, the Colossus can be the dominate wonder for much of the first 5,000 years or so.

:)

The risk of the Colossus being build too far away or in a lousy city certainly does exist!

However, although the Colossus can be very powerfull as you described, in my own (SP)games I find usually very little time to build it, the HG being my first priority. (extra trade as well onder Monarchy (We Love the King), and simularly in Republic due to enormous growth under Love-conditions. The loss of Science to Lux is easily compensated in both cases). I have never sufficiently playtested the benefits of one over the other, but my SP games usually go quite well by the described strat ;)

On Topic: what order of Tech-research should we follow to reach Monarchy ASAP ?

For my benefit, can someone discuss the relative merits of running to monarchy vs running to republic?

You can get to Monarchy a heck of a lot sooner than you can get to Republic basically. After that, change to Republic if you want but the simple rule is to get out of Despotism as soon as you possibly can and Monarchy is the best way.

But republic is only on the "4th" level, whilst monarchy is on the third. The only difference is that you need literacy for republic.

As I see it, you can research literacy instead of monarchy, and get to work building libraries in the SSC whilst you get the republic.

I presume that it is actually much slower due to having to take other techs along the way, but just thought it might be worth considering as an alternative. It really boils down to how long you are going to stay in monarchy.

Since we will be rocketing along to our first tech in two turns with 5 arrows per turn I have decided to bring this thread back. :)
I assume that everyone will be wanting to go for Alphabet first, as this seems to be the most popular choice from what has been posted here so far. If you think otherwise then say now or be forced to sit and watch the Fanaticans develop into a highbrow cultural elite rather than the meanest fighting force on the planet. Although later on, that too. :)
So to our President preparing to play the next turn when we are given the option of a first tech: Alphabet! Then Ceremonial Burial, Bronze Working, Code of Laws and Monarchy!

How long will the second tech take (estimated?) Just want to compare this to the SSC build queue (as per the other thread) :)

I'd like to know how long it will take before we will have bronze working so that we can begin on constructing colossus. I think it will be a waste if the SSC is building units while the shields would be very well used on the colossus. If we begin on barracks and switch will that take away shields from the production line? If not I'm all in favour to start barracks when bronze working is being researched and then with a few turns left on barracks to switch to colossus.

Changing the type of build project will mean that you lose half the shields accrued on all levels higher than Chieftain. The types are: units, city improvements and wonders (including SS parts). The later you leave a switch then, the more shields you will lose. If we produce units then we can either use them to garrison new cities and rehome them or disband them to add half the number of shields they required to the Colossus. I don't think that this second idea is a good one but it would be possible and indeed necessary in extreme circumstances.

I would be in favor of moving Bronze Working as far forward in the tech queue as possible, even as our first choice if that still gets us to Monarchy in 5 techs. (We have to choose a tech not on the path to Monarchy anyway). Not only will this give us the option of starting on colossus when we want, not when we finally get the tech, but we can also start building Phalanxes rather than warriors. I know not an issue right now, but I'd rather have cities garrisoned with phalanxes already in place when barbs and enemies start appearing than have to start converting our warriors into phalanxes, which would pull resources from whatever endeavors me might be engaged in at that time.

Since we will be rocketing along to our first tech in two turns with 5 arrows per turn I have decided to bring this thread back.
Right, but 2 will be for taxes & 3 for science (3,3,3,1-ADVANCE-2,3,3,3,3...). It will be the 4th turn for tech #1.

If we do BW, then we can start Colossus after the Warrior is done. If not BW, we must do CB & then build temple. We can start Barracks, and switch to temple. It all depends on our 1st research. Hopefully, we won't get techs from huts after we start research at least till Monarchy).

Early warriors are not for defense, but for exploring and happiness control. When growth requires it, NONE units have to return and take care of the red dudes (takes timing to know just when ;) ).

I just saw Leowind's post, which is really a great idea. The option of Phalanxes, and of course the Wonder start. The 1st tech completion will coincide with the 1st warrior completion.

Yes, i have always been an advocate of researching BW as soon as possible. The sooner we can get the colosuss the better. Phlanxes are a nice bonus too.

Originally posted by starlifter
Right, but 2 will be for taxes & 3 for science (3,3,3,1-ADVANCE-2,3,3,3,3...). It will be the 4th turn for tech #1.

Duh! I didn't even realise the error of my ways when I looked at the two city screens. :crazyeye: Still, the more money we have, the more barb bribery we can get up to! :)

As to Leo's suggestion, I am quite happy to go with BW as first tech. Despite what starlifter said about warriors, I still believe that we'll need one for peace-keeping in the SSC and then we can get a move on with the Colossus. It's best to have it for as long as possible.

Edited out some load of tripe that I typed earlier. I just hope that ron hasn't quoted it! :eek:

by Duke o York:
Despite what starlifter said about warriors, I still believe that we'll need one for peace-keeping in the SSC
??? I agree with you on that... in my prior post, I said warriors were good for " exploring and happiness control" as contrasted for defense. A caravan defends as well as a warrior, BTW. Naturally, the SSC needs a Warrior & should build one before strting a wonder :). In 11 turns, the SSC will need a mil unit to keep order, and the warrior is the only option (and fastest option... other cities can provide better defenders later). So yup, I agree... build a warrior, and it will pop out on the turn we get BW.

Even if BW bumps getting to Monarchy to 6 techs, I still like the idea of going for it first. Get's that Collosus started ASAP. :D

A poll to assertain what tech the people wish to research first would be most beneficial.

It would just be like the poll we've got that has 16 votes to build a warrior and none for any of the other options. I mentioned somewhere before in this thread that the general consensus seems to be for monarchy, and you can check starlifter's earlier post for the different choices to get there as soon as possible. I invited those who didn't want to beeline to monarchy to make themselves known but so far there has been no dissenters whatsoever. Rightfully so, I believe. :)
Since this thread is already quite large I don't see the need for another poll. It would just be an opportunity for people to make needless posts. We will have another science thread after the discovery of monarchy and that will doubtless contain a poll.
We tend to poll for research targets, rather than a choice of specific techs. After monarchy, instead of giving the poll options for each next possible tech, it is better to ask the populace where we should be heading: Feudalism, Philosophy, Seafaring, Literacy, Trade, etc.
:D

by Duke o York:
I invited those who didn't want to beeline to monarchy to make themselves known but so far there has been no dissenters whatsoever. Rightfully so, I believe.
I agree with Duke... there is a thread on it in great detail, and the path to Monarchy is pretty much set, barring a tech from a hut along the way (which would throw a big wrench into Monarchy, and delay Monarchy by hundreds of years).

The science advisors (and Prez/VP) know how to get there (to Monarchy), but if anyone would like an alternative, like Early Republic for instance, then they should of course post about their ideas :). The rate of techs will slow down after Monarchy, and the importance of specific benefits of individual techs, and their timing, will grow.

Originally posted by ainwood
But republic is only on the "4th" level, whilst monarchy is on the third. The only difference is that you need literacy for republic.

As I see it, you can research literacy instead of monarchy, and get to work building libraries in the SSC whilst you get the republic.

I presume that it is actually much slower due to having to take other techs along the way, but just thought it might be worth considering as an alternative. It really boils down to how long you are going to stay in monarchy.

*BUMP*

Can someone provide some info on this? Every thread seems to suggest that monarchy is a fait-accompli, but I'd still like a comparison with heading to republic instead. :)

(I guess I'm Duke's dissenter, but I can be easily persuaded ;) )

Monarchy yields more production than Republic, so it is a better focus. On the other hand, we have 3 None units, but...

I marvel at the seeming indecision of this community, but remind myself, that is the strength of Democracy. "The Road to Serfdom" by Hayek has an entire chapter on this subject.

I get the feeling that some people don't want to potentially embarrass themselves by weighing in with what they really think, but instead are waiting to see what the more experienced players have to say before saying anything of their own. This is a ridiculous idea of course - I'm sure that if we were to be given this randomly by the AI then we'd all be well into the endgame by now with tonnes of techs and the remnants of weeping AI civs. The Demo game gives everyone a chance to have a say though and so we can't play a huge pile of turns at once as the will of the people is vital to the conduct of the game. :)
I'm sure that if I was playing this game by myself then I'd be in all kinds of trouble by now, but since the format of this game gives us the chance to weigh up the pros and cons of every decision and prepare ourselves properly then we shouldn't make any of the silly irreversible blunders you might make in your own games. The speed of the game seems to be so impressive that I have to keep reminding myself that we still haven't reached turn 16 and the arrival of barbs yet! Once we have explored the continent though (for which the river should allow us much better speed), then the turns will roll over much quicker and we will start to move through the tech tree. :)
And just remember: From little acorns, irritating clichés grow! ;)

This game could be played in almost any style, successfully, given the start we have had (it is a very good start). I don't know how many people have actually played early republic (skipping monarchy and going straight to republic), but it is very different in some ways.

Early Republics will work, but you need happiness control and gold. Personally, I rarely use Early Republic (in place of Monarchy, that is), because I get more gold from the AI by extortion and war than by early game trade arrows that cannot be multiplied (e.g., no Marketplace yet, and no Michelangelo's Chapel for Deity unrest, and no Hanging Gardens). Settlers also eat 2 food, yet early on have not had time to irrigate. Food is key to early republics... with food, you can use Elvii to force a city to grow to size 7 thru WLT_ days.

Since settlers eat extra grain and units generally "eat" extra shields, it seems too early to consider Republic from an economic wiewpoint. At Deity, happiness is stickier but not as much a problem if supported units stay at home. My playing style is to focus on growth, building up the number and size of cities and increasing trade (unless there is a weak civ nearby to grab space from :soldier: ). Based on some very good articles (see Alan Nicoll's in the War Academy) and my own experience, I believe Monarchy is the best government for early development at high game levels. Grow fast and stay #1 in science!

There is a tech that means "Let the consideration for Early Republic begin!". That tech is Seafaring. The reason is Harbors. If a city has it's marketplace and temple, plus the harbor, it is pretty much good to size 7, and usually 8. Then drop Luxuries to 20%, and let the gold and caravans flow.


Unless the game conditions really start to shout "Early Republic, Early Republic!!", I tend to favor and stick with fast Monarchy. I almost never switch to Republic until fairly late, like about 1 AD or so.

BTW, the game (at this moment) is almost ideal for early republic, but experience says that can and usually does change (become less favorable) as the game progresses. Hence, I almost never go for Republic before Monarchy. As I appraoch 1 AD and I'm not in Republic (at Deity), I ask myself what I'm doing wrong, and sometimes drastically hack and slash tactics to get there, grow, and start real trade :).

Thanks for the feedback!

What I was actually looking at was the relative commerce and production bonuses (or should that actually be 'boni' :confused: ) of republic v monarchy, and comparing this to the extra turns to be spent in despotism whilst researching to republic (especially if you have to take another side-track tech in between, say after COL). I am an emperor player, and it was usually possible to manage happiness reasonably well going to republic. I probably never took too much notice of the relative other effects, especially in terms of unit support etc. My main "issue" used to be with units out of their home town creating unhappiness, especially galleys. Anyhow - I used to use this frequently when we were alone on an island, and a mobile force wasn't needed on border patrol etc.

I also used to tend to go for the "peaceful-builder" approach, so income from war / extortion was not really applicable!

The question then becomes "at what point do you change from monarchy?" Do you wait and go straight to fundamentalism / democracy? Or do you grow the infrastructure (temples / markets / happiness wonders) and then go to republic?

The issue for me is simply getting out of despotism as soon as possible, and Monarchy offers the fastest route to do that. Once there I seem to stay there for quite some time, but then I'm still learning at Deity. I could be all for a quick route to Republic once we get to Monarchy.

As far as updating the Current Science thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26572):

If the Advisors could upload the needed screen shot(s) to the server and then just post the link to it in the Needed Stuff Thread (or PM me) I can then update the main thread with the new link.