http://www.civfanatics.net/methos/hof/staff/gauntlet.gifWhile the general Hall of Fame is an ongoing competition, we like to run time-definite competitions between updates that we call Gauntlets. Standard Hall of Fame rules (*) still apply, but any games meeting the settings will be counted towards the Gauntlet.

(*) Please read the >> HOF rules << (http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/rules.php) BEFORE playing!


Settings:

Victory Condition: Cultural (though all victory conditions must be enabled)
Difficulty: Deity
Starting Era: Ancient
Map Size: Small
Map Type: Any
Speed: Normal
Civ: Any
Opponents: Any
Version: 1.74.002, 2.13.002 or 3.13.001
Date: 10th June to 10th July 2008
Must not play as Inca.

The earliest finish date wins, with score as a tiebreaker.

Jesusin to win ;)

Jesusin to win ;)

Are you taking bets? :mischief:

Or WastinTime? Place your bets, gentlemen and ladies :)
I'm subscribing to this thread in the hope I can learn enough to be able to replace my ultra-cheesy deity HOF entry (well, it did allow me to be a QM :blush:).

Well...I have already lost once.

I played as the Chinese. I set up the world as a Hemispheres map with three continents and had one landmass to myself. There was gold and silver in by BFC and my second city had gold and floodplains. I beelined for Music. I was able to build the Parthenon and the Great Library. I missed the Sistine Chapel by one turn :mad:. I built five or six cities to fill up my continent. I had four religions spread to me and built Cathedrials for all four in the city with the least culture. The AIs never declared war on me, and two of them actually gifted me several techs over the years because I was so pathetic. Hyman Cupac won a Cultural Victory in 1850.

Suggestions would be much appreciated. Dieity is above my level, but I am tenacious and have a lot of free time to play for the next month. I only have to win one time ;)

Just transplant the whole content of that Cultural Deity thread by 1000AD thread here!

Suggestions would be much appreciated. Deity is above my level, but I am tenacious and have a lot of free time to play for the next month. I only have to win one time ;)

EDIT: BTS and vanilla timelines are the same at normal speed. It's only quick speed where vanilla had the advantage.

Remember, less is more. Research only what you need to get to Liberalism (for free speech) and build only enough cities to get cathedrals built. That's 6 at most on a small map. Four cities is also enough if you use Great Artists. Get 10 - 15 Great Artists and avoid all other great people. You will win eventually.

Jesusin or WastinTime to win, I meant to say ;)

Mesix, I would give the Great Library a miss myself. Not that I will be able to win... Sistine seems alot more important to me.

Parthenon and SoZ (BtS) are pretty good too for culture.

WastinTime surely you want to tech to Nationalism as well after lib (or are you assuming we will win the lib race) for Hermitage.

I've not played BtS deity but if they tech slower that has to be good no?

Oh, make sure to turn barbs and goody huts off... AI nabs all the huts.

Inland sea is probably best for this? Liz, Gandhi or vanilla Saladin or Qin?

This game is not hard at all, the only tough thing is to get a fast finish

Here are my 2 cents:

I would suggest big maps...like lakes, oasis, great plains, so you have at least 5 cities (so you can build those small wonders.) Also, dont build any wonders (unless you need some quick cash or very good/lucky because there are at least 4 competing ai). Pick peaceful ai that dont go culture (plenty to choose from BTS; ai such as Gandhi and Hatty really likes to go cultural in my games), and start planning early.

I had never won liberalism/oracle races at deity, so I dont have a benchmark for those. I got close in my last game when Lincoln beat me to it about 10 turns...probably could have organized my tech priority...

The main obstacle I faced was health in the end....although I have about 5 health resources and traded 3 others and aqueducts in my cities. Also, make sure you select choose religion, it often makes building cathedral much faster.

Definately giving this a whirl, my only previous deity gauntlet win has been wiped out as it was Inca. Not sure what map type to use though...

Wow! This might be a tourney to attend!

Anyone got a list of resource multipliers by Cathedral type?

Copper - Buddhism, Confu, Tao
Marble - Hindu, Islam
Stone - Christianity, Judaism

This makes BtS "select religion" feature a bit cheesy - is it allowed in HOF?

Yes it is.

Never tried it but of course I will for this...

Deleted.

Posted in wrong thread.

Jesusin or WastinTime to win, I meant to say ;)
...
Oh, make sure to turn barbs and goody huts off... AI nabs all the huts.


Oh, thank you for the confidence.
I am in bad shape and RL is taking its toll on me. I'll try to play one game, though.

You shouldn't forget Lexad's Quechuas, FiveAces shrewdness and killercane acuteness either. Probably someone else can come and surprise us all, too.


If you want to follow the "lean on them" strategy I advocate, you shouldn't play with GH off. You want the AI to be as advanced as possible. I don't think you can have Liberalism in the BC with Prince AI, but you do with Deity AI. Help them as much as you can!

Quechua's are banned though!

Quechua's are banned though!

Ahaha.

Did you hear that, Lexad? :D

Rats!

Well, they aren't that good at Normal speed. However, this also means more culture comes from religions [than on Quick] as we've learned in BOTM-4 Gauntlet - therefore prioritizing an early religion is very important.

Who do you think would be added to the roster once Philo trait s down the drain, and the early landgrab (and religion-grab) is an opportunity? Pericles? Rammeses?

How about Isabela?

Lousy UU, lousy UB, good but not the best traits.

Why is philo down the drain? Isn't it still the best trait?

If you're looking to replicate the Inca strategy, wouldn't you use Immortals or War Chariots? I think this will be tough at normal speed. I'm betting on a peaceful strategy. You can always try to steal their cities with culture instead of military.

Killkillkill!

Warchars, maybe. In BtS AI is much smarter militarily, though. Still, BtS provides great opportunities due to better and cheaper golden ages and further Parthenon, so it does not compete for hammers with Oracle.

Philo is certainly not down the drain, but it is less potent than on Quick as the real required culture is much higher, while Philo's marginal effect is decreasing with time = number of GP. Therefore more religions = faster victory.

I agree with your assessment--religions are important, but they should spread to you on a small map. Founding is not necessary.

In the early days of Deity Culture (before quick/Great Artists became the fad) the prevailing strategy was pyramids/rushbuying. If you don't want pyramids, you could always tech to democracy.

I do not like to risk religions distribution - this has already slaughtered a couple of great starts for me in due time.
In BtS AI on higher levels issues a plague of missionaries once founding a religion to religion-less nations; obtaining others later thus might be extremely troublesome unless you're the founder, and late-game conquest is highly infeasible.

Maybe Praetorians? :)

Well, I've tried 4 times now and it always goes about the same. Miss every religion by 1 turn. Miss every wonder by 1 turn and depending on the map type; total annihilation or a cultural victory by someone else in the early 1900s.

I tried two times. The first time I survived to the end but I lost because an AI shot to space. I researched far too slow, I got few GP, no way I could win that game. On the second game I researched much faster, I was near from bulbing Philo before 800 BC but one AI decided to attack me. A stack of more or less 10 units (axes, swordsman and chariots) against my lonely warrior per city.... I quit that moment.

Hmm...the problems for my games are that I either get box in very quick by all the ai and cant make more than 2 good cities or I dont start with a food source! ( I have been playing on oasis maps and i dont know how to use mapfinder.)

It's nice to practice on less difficult settings (still deity, but try the tiny map w/ 3 ai); I learn the in-and-outs for deity ancient tiny maps, and the small map just require a little more precision.

I think the ai to play against in this gaunlet are the American leaders. Good old Abe and his predecessor and successor are good allies and they are too righteous to pick on smaller foe. For the wild card 4th leader, why not the "Native" American leader Sitting Bull?

I think the ai to play against in this gaunlet are the American leaders. Good old Abe and his predecessor and successor are good allies and they are too righteous to pick on smaller foe. For the wild card 4th leader, why not the "Native" American leader Sitting Bull?
Roosevelt declared war on me, but I guess the Americans are quite peaceful.
Turn 81/460 (875 BC) [14-Jun-2008 00:36:21]
Tech learned: Code of Laws
Roosevelt(America) declares war on AnitaGaribaldi(England)
While defending in English territory at York, Warrior loses to: American Chariot (1.44/4) (Prob Victory: 10.6%)
York lost
While defending in the wild near San Francisco, Worker loses to: American Chariot (4.00/4) (Prob Victory: 89.4%)
Attitude Change: Roosevelt(America) towards AnitaGaribaldi(England), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'

The first game I tried archipelago/low sea levels/snaky continents and I got a small piece of land big enough for 6-7 cities. The AI was near me, but not on my landmass, so it needed to build a boat before settling. My economy was a mess and I could not trade well. The second game I tried inland sea, I could build the cities but Roosevelt...:( The third game I tried Pangaea and I got boxed before settling the second city. I could just settle two more cities not on good places. Now, I'm back to inland sea again. I'm planning what to do with a gold and marble start on my BFC. I might try to build Parthenon.

On the philo/non-philo debate, my theory is fast GS have more value on this speed as they accelerate FS, which is critical path for 2nd legendary city. I plan to pop 2 - 1 to bulb Philo and one for academy, and perhaps a third for edu depending on how good my 2nd cottage city is. To get them asap I will be philo.

On the philo/non-philo debate, my theory is fast GS have more value on this speed as they accelerate FS, which is critical path for 2nd legendary city. I plan to pop 2 - 1 to bulb Philo and one for academy, and perhaps a third for edu depending on how good my 2nd cottage city is. To get them asap I will be philo.

I am trying with BTS Gandhi. Spiritual is not as good in BTS. Golden Ages deprive it of half its value. Maybe it's time to go back to old Lizzy.

Hey guys´n´gals, I need a bit of advice.

I follow godonut´s strategy, and normally get wins around 1700. However, I´ve tried this challenge twice now, and lost twice in the 1400s. Clearly I need to up my game a bit.

(BTW. I am playing vanilla, elizabeth, inland sea vs gandhi, hatty, cyrus, and mansa).

A specific question I have is what to do when I get Alphabet. Usually I beat all the AI to this. They usually have plenty of techs to trade, but I have nothing to offer other than alphabet. Should I trade alphabet, or should I research to drama, say, and trade that?

I usually trade away alphabet since all the other techs on offer are just too tempting; but this does seem to mean that the AIs then trade away techs with each other with a vengence and I struggle to keep up.

(BTW. I´m not necessarily looking for a super-fast win - just to beat the AI would keep me happy).

Further to my previous post, I also have a question about the optimal time to build cities five and six.

I don´t usually struggle to get my six cities founded. I have four cities fairly early (3 legendary cities & a GP farm) and later I don´t normally have any problem squeezing two more in.

My question is, when should I squeeze these in? At the moment, I hold off doing this as long as possible until just before I switch to US and start the buying religious buildings phase. My reasoning is that a) I want to avoid the additional maintenence costs and b) the cities are usually sub-optimal and I end up buying all the temples in them, so there is not much value in getting them much earlier.

Is this reasoning sound, or should I be approaching this question differently?

How are you losing the game in the 1400s?

RE: cities 5 and 6...don't build them ever. On a small map, you only need 2 temples per cathedral. With 7 religions, you should be able to make 14 cathedrals work. Even 10 or 12 cathedrals is probably enough.

At present, I use the GE from the pyramids to build the GL. I then use 3 GSs to build 3 Acadamy´s in the legendary cities.

I´m not entirely convinced this is worth it. The cultural benefits of the acadamy (+4) are nice to have, but not necessarily worth the expense of a GE, and teching to lit. The +50% science is of course a big bonus, but I seem to be getting my GSs quite late. Indeed, I´m often reasearching Edu/Lib by the time the third one comes, when I´m beginning to think about switching research off.

Another problem with the GL, is that often (not always) I end up getting a fourth GS when what I really want is GAs i.e the GL is messing up my GA pool.

So, I have a number of questions around this.

Should I build the GL?

If I do build the GL, what should I do with the GS? Build academies, or grab new techs to trade e.g. philo, edu?

How should I maximise GS production? Should I have as many scientists in as many cities as possible, or should I concentrate on only having as many scientists as possible in the city with the GL?

If I should build the GL, but the AI beats me to it, is it worth perservering with the game or should I start again?

If I don´t build the GL, what should I do with the GE?

Also, in the city which has the pyramids (which is usually the capital), should I use additional scientists (either before or after the first GE has popped). What I am getting at is should I be trying to preserve the purity of the GE gene pool in the hope of getting a second GE (for the taj majal say), or should I be throwing as much effort at research as possible as early as possible in the game?

How are you losing the game in the 1400s?

The first time was a space race victory (Cyrus I think, but I´m not quite sure).

The second time was diplo win in 1480 for Cyrus.

RE: cities 5 and 6...don't build them ever. On a small map, you only need 2 temples per cathedral. With 7 religions, you should be able to make 14 cathedrals work. Even 10 or 12 cathedrals is probably enough.

This sounds like a key piece of advice. I will definitely try this in my next game. In fact, if my wife wasn´t giving me withering looks which signify "you´re spending far too much time on that damn game again, why can´t we go shopping", I´d try again right now :)

Spreading the religions and building temples in all six cities does seem to drag on for a bit (especially when you get into a losing streak with failures of religion to spread!)

On a small map, you only need 2 temples per cathedral. With 7 religions, you should be able to make 14 cathedrals work. Even 10 or 12 cathedrals is probably enough.

This reply to a previous post pre-empted my next question, which I was in the process of composing (not that I am complaining you understand).

But my question is essentially, how long should you go on building cathedrals for?

If a new religion spreads to you six turns before you are about to get your cultural win, then obviously you wouldn´t even stop to consider stopping to build more religious buildings.

But say that you have four cities and six religions, which I believe means that you can build 12 cathedrals. Would you always build all the cathedrals that you can? If you don´t have access to the special resource for the cathedral (marble say), it can drag on a bit before you´ve got enough dosh to buy two more cathedrals. Is this time always well spent?

(I appreciate this might be a bit of a nonsense question if you only have 4 cities. I´m really prompted to ask it in the context of my experiences with six cities, where my cathedral building can drag on to the 1500 and the AI is well on the way to building the spaceship. Hopefully just building four cities brings the time-line forward so that it is a non-question).

Nonsense or not, I can´t help asking a supplemental question, since it is one that always causes me anguish when it occurs.

Suppose you have built all your cathedrals and have embarked down the final straight of accumulating culture a.s.a.p and then another religion spreads to you. How do you judge whether it is worth another round of missionary/temple/cathedral building?

If all other cathedrals are built, it's probably too late, but what you need to try to calculate is how much culture you lose because you have to generate cash and compare it to the extra culture you get from the cathedrals. Or, if you're not rushbuying, then you have to see how painful it is to work the mines and build it instead of building culture and/or running Artist specialists. It takes a bit of guesswork/intuition. I find that the most important number to know is the turn you plan to win.

Your other question: building all cathedrals. I usually don't get the ones built that require a resouce I don't have--maybe one of the two. However, that's in quick culture games where there isn't time to rush-buy. With rushbuying, you WANT to buy those missing-resource cathedrals. They cost the same! I guess a better way to say it is: You don't want to buy cathedrals when you do have the resource.

If you are building four cities, should the GA farm be one of the legendary cities?

If the GA is to be one of the legendary cities, do you rely solely on the culture from the artists (plus religious buildings etc), or do you throw in cottages as well i.e. do you irrigate or cottage grasslands?

If all other cathedrals are built, it's probably too late... It takes a bit of guesswork/intuition.

Intuitively (based on my experiences with six city games) I would hazard a rule of thumb that says if a religion spreads before you have built all the other cathedrals, build cathedrals for the new religion as well; but if you have built all the other cathedrals already, don´t bother with the new religion...

... it´s just that it´s just so tempting to try and squeeze a bit more culture out from a few more cathedrals. Maybe I´m just too greedy :).

If you are building four cities, should the GA farm be one of the legendary cities?

If the GA is to be one of the legendary cities, do you rely solely on the culture from the artists (plus religious buildings etc), or do you throw in cottages as well i.e. do you irrigate or cottage grasslands?

Your super GA farm (with the National Epic) can't waste citizens on cottages. Just food and artists. You probably won't touch grassland. It's not very efficient, just 1 extra food. Try to find corn, pigs, flood plains, etc.

This city is usually the 3rd legendary. It will require 9-10 Great Artist culture bombs, give or take. I don't know exactly how many cus I don't play normal speed.

Your other question: building all cathedrals. I usually don't get the ones built that require a resouce I don't have--maybe one of the two. However, that's in quick culture games where there isn't time to rush-buy. With rushbuying, you WANT to buy those missing-resource cathedrals. They cost the same! I guess a better way to say it is: You don't want to buy cathedrals when you do have the resource.

This sounds like another key piece of advice. If I´ve understood you correctly:-

a) In quick games, build cathedrals for which you have the resource, but don´t bother with those for which you don´t.

b) In normal games, build cathedrals for which you have the resource, and rush-buy the cathedrals for which you don´t. I can do that.

BTW. I assume that the "normal rule" applies to epic and marathon as well, or would you even consider rush buying resourced-cathdrals in these games?

... it´s just that it´s just so tempting to try and squeeze a bit more culture out from a few more cathedrals. Maybe I´m just too greedy :).

Another important factor is if you have 1 city that is lagging. Generating cash for X turns is a culture loss to all cities, but the new cathedral only goes into 1 city. It helps to know if 1 city really needs that boost. To know that, you really need to figure out how many extra artist bombs you have to aid that lagging city.

But you're rule of thumb is good. If it's so early that you're still building other cathedrals, you should probably add the new ones.

Your super GA farm (with the National Epic) can't waste citizens on cottages. Just food and artists. You probably won't touch grassland. It's not very efficient, just 1 extra food. Try to find corn, pigs, flood plains, etc.

This city is usually the 3rd legendary. It will require 9-10 Great Artist culture bombs, give or take. I don't know exactly how many cus I don't play normal speed.

Thanks for your clear advice here.

In my heart of hearts I knew that this was the answer before I even posed the question, it´s just that I am always tempted to fiddle around with my workers trying to improve every single square. Its very helpful to have a knowledgable person confirm that you are wrong.

Of course, receiving advice and acting on advice are two different things :). Let´s see what happens in the next game...

BTW. I assume that the "normal rule" applies to epic and marathon as well, or would you even consider rush buying resourced-cathdrals in these games?

Yea, any non-quick is the same.

Don't forget if you're spiritual, you really don't want to buy temples. Buying missionaries is always good. It's been years since I did this, but I think it made sense to even buy banks if you plan a lot of rushbuying. That advice might only be best on lower difficulty levels. At Deity, I think you can trade tech for lots of cash.

I really should play one of these before giving all this advice. Many things could have changed in BTS. I can't play until July, if at all.

Having built all my cathedrals and ramped up the culture bar, should the legendary cities continue building other edifices or should they switch to culture?

Maybe the answer is a straightforward no, but I would like to consider what type of building we are talking about.

a) Monastries. These are relatively cheap and I pretty much always complete building them if I haven´t already done so.

b) Universities. These are quite time-consuming to build. I usually do build them, but I suspect that I am wasting my time.

c) Financial buildings. (Courthouses, Market, Grocers, Banks). Since my culture bar is usually at 70%-80%, I´m often tempted to build these buildings in an attempt to push the bar up to 90%-100%. I lose 20-30 culture per turn whilst building these, but hope to get this back when the culture bar is raised. However, I suspect that this is false (over-optimistic/greedy) reasoning, especially since these are relatively time-consuming buildings to construct.

Yea, any non-quick is the same.

Don't forget if you're spiritual, you really don't want to buy temples.

This is a good piece of advice. It doesn´t apply at the moment since I´m playing Elizabeth; but I may try someone else latter - and I guess other people reading this may be using spiritual leaders.

It's almost always worth building the monasteries, etc unless the game is very near the end. Don't forget, if you pound these out early (before 400 AD) they will double their culture before the end of the game. (e.g. 4 culture/monastery instead of 2). That's true for every building (except the Academy for some strange reason.)

If you're philo, the universities are double speed (vanilla civ). But I usually skip these because cathedrals come first and then it gets too late.

Your culture bar is 70-80% ??!! There's your problem. I've never found a reason to ever go below 100% and I never build any of those financial buildings. Why would you with 0% gold? You should be able to trade for cash or trade resources for cash/turn. Remember, you can sell all your happy resources once you turn up the culture slider. Happy is never a problem, even if they emancipate.

Buying missionaries is always good.

This is good to know. I have been doing this to a small degree, but not systematically. I shall try to be more rigorous about doing it.

BTW. When buying missionaries, I usually wait 1 turn, because the cost comes down quite significantly, but again I suspect that time is more important than cost i.e. I should be buying straight away and damn the cost.

Also, if I´m building missionaries in my capital it often only takes 2 turns, I don´t bother rush-buying these; but again, I guess time is more important and I should be buying these straight off.

Your culture bar is 70-80% ??!! There's your problem. I've never found a reason to ever go below 100% and I never build any of those financial buildings. Why would you with 0% gold? You should be able to trade for cash or trade resources for cash/turn.

O.K. I need to have a look at what is going on here.

A contributory factor maybe the six cities. If I switch to 4, the maintenance costs will come down.

I am trading resources, but not all of my opponents seem to have the cash to trade. Perhaps I should consider playing with more opponents?

Another problem with the GL, is that often (not always) I end up getting a fourth GS when what I really want is GAs i.e the GL is messing up my GA pool.

So, I have a number of questions around this.

Should I build the GL?

If I do build the GL, what should I do with the GS? Build academies, or grab new techs to trade e.g. philo, edu?

How should I maximise GS production? Should I have as many scientists in as many cities as possible, or should I concentrate on only having as many scientists as possible in the city with the GL?

If I should build the GL, but the AI beats me to it, is it worth perservering with the game or should I start again?

If I don´t build the GL, what should I do with the GE?


I am still trying to win this but I never build the GL in my cultural game. Not even on Settler. You can use the GE to rush National Wonders: National Epic or Globe Theater. Sometimes the perfect GP far is on a terrain with little production and the GE might help you get those GP faster. The Globe Theater allows three artists specialists, so you will still have one good GA farm even if the UN votes emancipation for all civs. This is painful for me because I cannot defy resolutions on Warlords.

A contributory factor maybe the six cities. If I switch to 4, the maintenance costs will come down.

I am trading resources, but not all of my opponents seem to have the cash to trade. Perhaps I should consider playing with more opponents?

Your intuition is solid here. I'd bet the six cities is the problem. And playing w/ more opponents is a wise thing to consider for exactly the reason you pointed out. The only problem with that is running out of land. If you can grab enough land, then an extra opponent or two is nice.

BTW. When buying missionaries, I usually wait 1 turn, because the cost comes down quite significantly, but again I suspect that time is more important than cost i.e. I should be buying straight away and damn the cost.

Also, if I´m building missionaries in my capital it often only takes 2 turns, I don´t bother rush-buying these; but again, I guess time is more important and I should be buying these straight off.

Again, good intuition. You do NOT want to waste the cash buying on turn 1. In your capitol, where it's only 2 turns, you still want to buy the rest on turn 2. Why would you do that if it would get built next turn anyway? Because you get a nice big overflow of hammers for the next build.

My final question concerns the start position.

I am using map-finder to find start positions with stone and then manual browsing to choose the map to use, but I´m not totally sure what I should be giving priority to.

Oddly enough, I don´t necessarily give priority to stuff that might make an exceptional cultural city (cottaged grassland, floodplains etc) since I usually find that, short of settling in the middle of tundra, the capital city is usually the lead cultural city anyway, so there is no need to over-egg it.

I tend to look for stuff that gives the city a good start (so I can get the 1st settler out quickly etc.)

My priority is usually a hills plains for the extra hammer from the outset, and then an oasis (preferably) for extra commerce whilst building the first worker (failing that a flood-plain). Ideally corn would be nice for the first improved square to have the extra boost for growth (and the extra production for the 1st settler, 2nd Worker). Lots of trees would be nice as well.

I know this is a bit of an open-ended question and there is no right answer, but any views would be appreciated.

In your capitol, where it's only 2 turns, you still want to buy the rest on turn 2. Why would you do that if would get built next turn anyway? Because you get a nice big overflow of hammers for the next build.

Oooo! :eek: I never knew that. That could help quite a bit.

I am using map-finder to find start positions with stone and then manual browsing to choose the map to use, but I´m not totally sure what I should be giving priority to.


Stone? Marble the the key for culture. (Nat Epic, Parthenon, Oracle, sistine chapel)
But you don't need it in your first city. I like the capitol to have a couple commerce resources (gold/gems, maybe furs). Food obviously and a lot of river.

Stone? Marble the the key for culture. (Nat Epic, Parthenon, Oracle, sistine chapel)
But you don't need it in your first city. I like the capitol to have a couple commerce resources (gold/gems, maybe furs). Food obviously and a lot of river.

I think it's not possible to build Parthenon, Oracle and Sistine Chapel. What wonders are the most important?

Oh my, Pious_Pete has set the ball rolling and I am missing it! I love talking about cultural strategy.

I can believe your AIs are winning so early!

WastinTime has answered a lot of your questions. I just have the feeling that you are abusing rushbuying. Let me throw a challenge at you: play a game without Pyramids, get Liberalism around 100AD and use 100% culture from then on, no matter how few cathedrals you have built at that time. For this experimental game try a 1 food, 2 Gems start. You might get a better or a worst result, but you'll learn not to build so much and not to wait so long out of 100% culture.

Never build the GL in a cultural game.

Get 1 GS for Academy in the capital. The capital should be the engine of your research.

Get 0-3 GS for lightbulbing.

Get 10-15GA for bombing at the end. Very early ones get settled.

I normally use the GPFarm as Legendary, without a single cathedral. But, if you have the space for cities and 3 wonderful cottageable locations, maybe GPFarm not Legendary is better.

Were to use the GE? What about not building the Pyramids, but Parthenon instead?

If you are waiting so long to build cities 5 and 6 it's normal they are at marginal sites. I love having my 5th city in a fish+2FP location. At size 8 is is running 5 artists, providing 45GPPpt as a secondary GPFarm. It more than outweights its cost.

Now, nothing is perfect. Since I don't buildrushbuy anything, unless I am Spiritual instead of Financial (which delays Liberalism date) I have to build all my cities very soon in order to choose and appropriate civwide time to revolt from slavery to CS.

As for money for 100%culture, appart from selling all your happy resources, do you sell your techs for cash when you reach Liberalism?

Buildings: every building is worth it if you build it slowly and you are not in the last 10-20 turns. At the very end it is better to build culture. Just do the maths.

The best piece of advice I can give is this: know the turn you are going to win. That allows you to know how many GA you'll have and to place the Hermitage in the more powerful city without unbalancing the cities' end-date.

I think it's not possible to build Parthenon, Oracle and Sistine Chapel. What wonders are the most important?

In BTS you should be able to build all three, only Oracle being at risk, since Parthenon is not an early WW anymore.

In Vanilla you can sometimes build both Oracle and Parthenon. I believe Sistine's isn't worth it in Vanilla.

Another game lost. It seems every time I got a good start, the AI knows: this girl will win by culture, let's whip her out of world. :mad:
This time was Gandhi:
Turn 75/460 (1040 BC) [15-Jun-2008 16:21:15]
Tech learned: Meditation
A Camp was built near Moscow
St. Petersburg finishes: Settler
Gandhi(India) declares war on AnitaGaribaldi(Russia)
Attitude Change: Washington(America) towards Roosevelt(America), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Gandhi(India) towards Roosevelt(America), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'

5 games and I was eliminated in 2 of them, is it normal?

I got Parthenon in this game. I was thinking if I should try to get Notre Dame. Parthenon is worth 20 culture (after doubling). I would build Notre Dame on BC era or early AC, I would have by the end of game 40 base culture just from wonders. I had a capital with a lot of production (2 marble, iron, corn and a mined gold) and six forests. My second city city had stone. My plan was to be the first to Music using the Great Artist from Parthenon to lightbulb Music. I would exchange one Great Artist for the free one. This would have a small cost on gold, but I think 30 gold or so is worth the Notre Dame. This game was lost because of Gandhi. Which AI do you choose? I play Warlords.

Very unlucky. I don't think Gandhi will bother you again. Sometimes the tension from close borders causes these unlikely wars. Gifting tech can solve this problem. Get them to Pleased. Open borders ASAP.

Sistine has become even stronger in BtS. I also prefer to build Taj. However, in my best quechua games I managed to build also Pyrs, Henge, and smth other for base culture - each after 1000 years is worth like 2-3 towns. Also very useful wonder is Mausol, as GAges are much more available and efficient in BtS.

Even the most peaceful AI tended to attack if I was settling quickly and boxing them in their 2-3 cities. Keeping them pleased, howeer, usually does the trick.

I don't know how it is in BtS - AI tend to be smarter, judging by my previous experience.

Very unlucky. I don't think Gandhi will bother you again. Sometimes the tension from close borders causes these unlikely wars. Gifting tech can solve this problem. Get them to Pleased. Open borders ASAP.

I had no open borders with Gandhi, so I guess this would help. Gandhi was cautious but I guess I'm not very luck, I got attacked by Roosevelt at Pleased. I checked the Deity Hof games, the Americans are oft one of the rivals.

I still haven't played any games as Aztec, Greece, Japan, Mongolia, Viking and Zulu for the Quattromasters challenge. I'll get my revenge. :mischief:

I had no open borders with Gandhi, so I guess this would help. Gandhi was cautious but I guess I'm not very luck, I got attacked by Roosevelt at Pleased. I checked the Deity Hof games, the Americans are oft one of the rivals.

I still haven't played any games as Aztec, Greece, Japan, Mongolia, Viking and Zulu for the Quattromasters challenge. I'll get my revenge. :mischief:

lol, Ive seen Gandi pleased at -2 :) How did you piss him off so bad he went cautios?

lol, Ive seen Gandi pleased at -2 :) How did you piss him off so bad he went cautios?

No idea. I guess there are some hidden random modifiers. I think I didn't have a single -1.

I'm starting a new game soon. I think I have time for just one more game this week. I'm curious, which is the best start?

Gems+Gold Start
http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u275/lalgarve/Hof%20G-Mayor%2029/Eli_Dei_Sma_Inl_Nor_Anc_4000-BC_Tro.jpg

Gems + Marble Start
http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u275/lalgarve/Hof%20G-Mayor%2029/Eli_Dei_Sma_Inl_Nor_Anc_4000-BC_-1.jpg

Dunno, Gold+Gem Id build on gold and reroll if no food resource
I dont really like start 2 either but I would build on the plain hill to left of marble and hope for food resource somewhere in the blackness, else reroll

You can e-mail me start #1. I'll play that!
No doubt I'd go for that one. You have Rice. Don't move and hope for something in the fog to the east.

On 2nd thought move 1 south. That will give you 7 unrevealed tiles instead of 3. Good chance for something special.

No actually move the warrior south first and see what shows up.

Do them both :)

the last game I played was a close call...Roosevelt was popping SS parts (he even finished 2 engines!), Sitting Bull planted a huge army on my border (did nothing though), and Lincoln won a Diplomatic "victory" on the turn I won. I think because culture is added at the end of my second last turn, I gain a cultural victory before he gets his diplomatic victory, phew!!!

This game was an improvement of my last, because I have 2 religions in my cities in this game, but 3 in the last. I won the liberalism race by 800AD, the ai never even got to education yet (I guess less trading in hemisphere maps), also I was blessed with a good start (1 gold, 2 corn, 1 clam) and my 3 legendenary cities have grassland cottages almost everywhere. Though I was pretty unlucky as I lost the race to build both parenthon and sistine chapel.

At present, I use the GE from the pyramids to build the GL. I then use 3 GSs to build 3 Acadamy´s in the legendary cities.

I´m not entirely convinced this is worth it. The cultural benefits of the acadamy (+4) are nice to have, but not necessarily worth the expense of a GE, and teching to lit. The +50% science is of course a big bonus, but I seem to be getting my GSs quite late. Indeed, I´m often reasearching Edu/Lib by the time the third one comes, when I´m beginning to think about switching research off.

Another problem with the GL, is that often (not always) I end up getting a fourth GS when what I really want is GAs i.e the GL is messing up my GA pool.

So, I have a number of questions around this.

Should I build the GL?

If I do build the GL, what should I do with the GS? Build academies, or grab new techs to trade e.g. philo, edu?

How should I maximise GS production? Should I have as many scientists in as many cities as possible, or should I concentrate on only having as many scientists as possible in the city with the GL?

If I should build the GL, but the AI beats me to it, is it worth perservering with the game or should I start again?

If I don´t build the GL, what should I do with the GE?

Also, in the city which has the pyramids (which is usually the capital), should I use additional scientists (either before or after the first GE has popped). What I am getting at is should I be trying to preserve the purity of the GE gene pool in the hope of getting a second GE (for the taj majal say), or should I be throwing as much effort at research as possible as early as possible in the game?

I try to specialize my cities GP points in the early game. If I build the Pyramids, I also build a forge in that city to maximize GE points. If I get the Great Library, I try to add at least two scientists to that city to maximize GS generation. These are in separate cities of course so that the GP pool is not diluted. In the late game they switch to artists of course.

When going for a cultural win, I try to use the GE to rush the Sistine Chapel. In BTS this gives +2 per specialist and +5 per state religious building. To me this is a lot more beneficial than the extra trade routs from the Great Lighthouse. When playig on a small map with 5-6 cities, the affect of the extra trade routes is minimal anyway.

Won by 1595 AD as Mansa musa on Inland sea- not all that great but decent for a first try (and my second cultural victory ever) :)
There was a bunch of things I could have done better but most notably I think I need to go for higher population in my culture producing cities.

Got attacked by isabella in 1000 BC which was really bothersome, however after a while she made peace

used 4 cities, 3 religons and 5 cathedrals. Stopped tech at liberalism @ ~~100 AD

Manged to build MoM (had marble and didnt have anything else to build), and after I reached liberalism I also built sinistine and Tach? Mahal.

Got 1 GS and a total of 11 GA, of which I used one to generate an extra golden age. (Dunno if this is good but as it improves the great people generation it partly pays itself back)

Oh my, Pious_Pete has set the ball rolling and I am missing it! I love talking about cultural strategy.

Well, I was really enjoying the discussion too. Unfortunately, my wife´s aformentioned withering looks were beginning to turn into barbed and caustic comments, so a diplomatic charm offensive was in order to avoid a more serious escalation of hostilities.

I´m afraid I had to abandon the forum in favour of the Sex in the City movie.

Still, she´s in bed now, so I can pick up where I left off!

Stone? Marble the the key for culture. (Nat Epic, Parthenon, Oracle, sistine chapel)
But you don't need it in your first city. I like the capitol to have a couple commerce resources (gold/gems, maybe furs). Food obviously and a lot of river.

The reason that I go for stone is that I am following Godonut´s strategy which calls for stone to build the pyramid.

Let me throw a challenge at you: play a game without Pyramids, get Liberalism around 100AD and use 100% culture from then on, no matter how few cathedrals you have built at that time.

Well maybe I do need to abandon the pyramids as the cornerstone of my strategy.

I think I´ll try the pyramid strategy with four cities first; but if that doesn´t work I´ll probably have to change tack.

Never build the GL in a cultural game.

Get 1 GS for Academy in the capital. The capital should be the engine of your research.

Get 0-3 GS for lightbulbing.



I never was entirely sure of the net value of the GL, so I´ll definitely try this in my next game.

Get 10-15GA for bombing at the end. Very early ones get settled.


How do you get so many GA?

In my games (which typically run to c 1700) I get 1 GE, 3-4 GSs, and 5-6 GAs.

I can trim off a couple of GEs as per previous posts, but this still leaves me a way off.

I normally build NE and switch to pacifism when the other AIs have free religion.

I guess Parthanon would make a signficant difference. (Can you get Parthanon and Pyramids?)

Also, how many artists do you usually run in you GA farm? On a good day, I get 5. To get more (without irrigating grasslands, which Wastingtime suggests is not worth the candle) you´d need at least 3 food resources in the city, and I must say that I rarely manage to achieve that on diety.

I normally use the GPFarm as Legendary, without a single cathedral.

Well I´m convinced about making the GP farm one of the legendary cities; but what is the advantage of not building cathedrals in it?

I love having my 5th city in a fish+2FP location. At size 8 is is running 5 artists, providing 45GPPpt as a secondary GPFarm. It more than outweights its cost.


How many GAs would this secondary farm pop?

I would have thought that it would get dominated by the first GA farm (which would have NE in it)?

But then, what do I know :).

Since I don't buildrushbuy anything, unless I am Spiritual instead of Financial (which delays Liberalism date) I have to build all my cities very soon in order to choose and appropriate civwide time to revolt from slavery to CS.

This implies that you do a fair amount of whipping whilst in slavery. Is this correct?

Well I´m convinced about making the GP farm one of the legendary cities; but what is the advantage of not building cathedrals in it?

It's related to your other question about how to get so many GA's - except when you're building granary, library, NE, and maybe temples, you only work food tiles and run artists. So you have no hammers for cathedrals. (Rush-buy strategy is different of course - if you have enough cities and money there is no reason not to buy cathdrals in the GP farm if that is a legendary city).

I suggest you follow Harbourboy's advice and read the Cultural Deity by 1000AD thread to get an idea of what you need to do to have a fast non-pyramids game.

As for money for 100%culture, appart from selling all your happy resources, do you sell your techs for cash when you reach Liberalism?


I will be from now on :mischief:

BTW. I normally tech on beyond liberalism. I definitely go for Nationalism (for Hermitage) (even if I don´t get it for free for being the first to Liberalism).

I also normally tech to Printing Press.

Sometimes I even tech to Economy (but I guess this is going too far).

I tend to be still trading for requisite techs once I get beyond liberalism rather than for gold.

But I will try stopping at Liberalism/Nationalism and trading for cash instead.

I suggest you follow Harbourboy's advice and read the Cultural Deity by 1000AD thread to get an idea of what you need to do to have a fast non-pyramids game.

This sounds the ticket! Where is this discussion thread? (I´m not that lazy - I did do a search; but all I keep finding is Godonuts guide).

I was thinking if it is not so easy to make the GP farm one of the legendary cities. You need 13 GA to take one city from 0 to 50000 culture, the farm will have some culture.
Say it has 14 base culture from buildings, hire 7 artists without Sistine Chapel.
culture: 14+7*4= 42 base culture plus free speech 84 culture/turn
gpp : 7*3+1=22 philo+national epic = 66 gpp/turn
10000 culture = 120 turns = 7890 gpp
6700 gpp = 11 GA
7900 gpp = 12 GA
You will need 10-11 GA just for the farm and it's a good farm. In other hand, It's hard to get 4 good cities on deity. I was think of trying a game as Alex, the philo trait helps, the agressive helps getting one more capital and the UB is nice. Not sure if I can pull this off, though.

A specific question I have is what to do when I get Alphabet. Usually I beat all the AI to this. They usually have plenty of techs to trade, but I have nothing to offer other than alphabet. Should I trade alphabet, or should I research to drama, say, and trade that?

I usually trade away alphabet since all the other techs on offer are just too tempting; but this does seem to mean that the AIs then trade away techs with each other with a vengence and I struggle to keep up.


There´s been lots of feedback on my other questions (thanks everyone); but no one seems to have picked up on this question. Any views?

I was thinking if it is not so easy to make the GP farm one of the legendary cities. You need 13 GA to take one city from 0 to 50000 culture, the farm will have some culture.
Say it has 14 base culture from buildings, hire 7 artists without Sistine Chapel.
culture: 14+7*4= 42 base culture plus free speech 84 culture/turn
gpp : 7*3+1=22 philo+national epic = 66 gpp/turn
10000 culture = 120 turns = 7890 gpp
6700 gpp = 11 GA
7900 gpp = 12 GA
You will need 10-11 GA just for the farm and it's a good farm. In other hand, It's hard to get 4 good cities on deity. I was think of trying a game as Alex, the philo trait helps, the agressive helps getting one more capital and the UB is nice. Not sure if I can pull this off, though.

That´s an interesting calculation.

This seems to suggest that all the GA will go on the GP farm to get it to legendary. (This means that the other two cities would have to self-generate all their own culture).

If this is the case, surely it has to be better to use the fourth city as a cultural city? Even if it is a bit weak and feeble, surely it ought to be able to self-generate more than the 10000 culture that the GP farm would self generate?

BTW. What sort of a finish date would 120 turns translate into?

This sounds the ticket! Where is this discussion thread? (I´m not that lazy - I did do a search; but all I keep finding is Godonuts guide).

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232250

Well I´m convinced about making the GP farm one of the legendary cities; but what is the advantage of not building cathedrals in it?

Because a good GP farm should be working food, not hammers?

Well, Deity is way above my level of play but I tried it anyway. After getting trounced early 5 times (3 of them by barbs with archers right away) I decided to do this but on Noble level (my typical level of play) since I need a cultural win anyway. I just submitted by game that I won, took about a day and a half of play.

Not sure if my strats will work on Deity but they did work at noble. First off I played as Greece (Pericles). My thought here was Creative for the culture and Philo for the 100% GP since you need lots of Artists for culture victory. Also a good UU to help if attacked.

I went straight for a religion and got Hinduism. Also ended up founding Confusionism. Had Egypt (Hatty) and the Holy Romans on my continent. Churchill and Kymer on the other. On my continent between the 3 of us we founded every religion except one of them so I got them all. Lots of cathedrals in my 3 culture cities. I went mostly with wonders that got me artists and had 2 GP cities pumping out artists. I had the tech lead but was a bit weak at first in military. Holy Romans attacked me 3 times but I was able to beat him back and eventually took one city which gave me 6 total. Shut down tech after getting rifles but it still took me until early 1900's to win. But a win I got anyway.

Good luck to everyone!

Well, Deity is way above my level of play but I tried it anyway. After getting trounced early 5 times (3 of them by barbs with archers right away)

If Deity is way above your comfort zone, I´d play with barbs switched off. It´s not cheating...it´s one less thing to worry about!

When you win at Diety, then you can think about playing with barbs on.

I´m playing most of my games at Diety these days... and I´m sure as heck playing with barbs off.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232250

Thanks for this FiveAces.

I´ve read through this once and it is jaw-dropping stuff :eek:

All I can say to anyone else reading through this forum to get ideas for G-Major 29: you definitely need to read this link as well.

There´s been lots of feedback on my other questions (thanks everyone); but no one seems to have picked up on this question. Any views?

Of course, having now read the "1000AD Cultural Diety" thread, I can answer this for myself...

... trade alphabet a.s.a.p.

... so a diplomatic charm offensive was in order to avoid a more serious escalation of hostilities.


I have to use similar strategies too ;)

How do you get so many GA?
What are your auxiliary cities doing after building a granary and a couple temples?
Several factors.
- All my aux ciites are secondary GPFarms (+1/+2 each)
- Parthenon (+2)
- Final starvation phase (+1)
- Pacifism asap (+1)


I guess Parthanon would make a signficant difference. (Can you get Parthanon and Pyramids?)


Not in Vanilla.


Also, how many artists do you usually run in you GA farm? On a good day, I get 5. To get more (without irrigating grasslands, which Wastingtime suggests is not worth the candle) you´d need at least 3 food resources in the city, and I must say that I rarely manage to achieve that on diety.
8 (9 with Mercantilism) on the last turns of a good day.
Mid game it's 5. Then I use farmed grasslands till I reach my health limit.
Pigs+Corn+Sugar+some grasslands gives you 6 artists before using the grasslands and it's not so rare a location.
Your building the Pyramids might be delaying your settlers too much to get to the prime sites. I have 4 cities by 1000BC.

Well I´m convinced about making the GP farm one of the legendary cities; but what is the advantage of not building cathedrals in it?

It should be obvious: running artists instead of mines.
In your case, running 100% culture civwide instead of saving money.
In the just 4 cities case: because you want the 2 cathedrals in the best possible cities, and that's always the 2 cottage cities.

This implies that you do a fair amount of whipping whilst in slavery. Is this correct?

Yes, I do.
I love to whip my granaries. Maybe I am too granary loving, what do you think, WastinTime?

I will be from now on :mischief:

BTW. I normally tech on beyond liberalism. I definitely go for Nationalism (for Hermitage) (even if I don´t get it for free for being the first to Liberalism).

Well done.

I also normally tech to Printing Press.

Sometimes worth it, sometimes not. Aren't you able to trade for it instead?

Sometimes I even tech to Economy (but I guess this is going too far).

Wrong. Please, don't.

I tend to be still trading for requisite techs once I get beyond liberalism rather than for gold.

But I will try stopping at Liberalism/Nationalism and trading for cash instead.
It's not either trading for techs or for money. You can get both. On a lucky day I can trade from Guilds up to Corporation, and get all their money several times on top of it. Getting to Mercantilism (and the money) is usually more than enough.

There´s been lots of feedback on my other questions (thanks everyone); but no one seems to have picked up on this question. Any views?
Sorry, It's easy to miss one between so many! (J/K)
Two views that I know of:
- jesusin's: gift it asap (well, it's more like wait for Maths to gift it around), that way AI advance quicker and you'll get to trade more, you'll get to Liberalism sooner, to Mercant sooner, etc...
- WastinTime's (I hope I'm remembering right): Keep it as long as you can, as a means to guarranty being first to Liberalism, Tao, etc...

How many GAs would this secondary farm pop?

I would have thought that it would get dominated by the first GA farm (which would have NE in it)?

But then, what do I know :).

Thank you for asking so good a question. I think I had never really asked/answered this myself.

Let's compare a game in which the 5th city is built with the same game without the 5th city.

Let's imagine that at 1AD we have all 5 artists, we are running CS+Pacif; we get 15GPeople all game long and we win 1300AD. At the end of the game, some 500GPP are left in this city, so they are wasted.

The 5th city adds 5*3*(1+1+1)*75turns==3375GPP.
The last 2 GA have cost 2000+1800GPP. (Of course the 5th city didn't pop precisely this 2 GA, but it is just the same for our purposes).
3375-500wasted == 1.5* 1900 so I conclude that the 5th city gives one and a half additional GA.

Now, I think more or less the cost is Null. Before Liberalism, the beakers the 5th city makes more or less pay for its maintenace. At the end of the game, those 500GPP that are wasted don't need to be gotten by artists, so you hire merchants instead: this more or less pays for all the maintenance post Liberalism.

So in my mind getting a 5th Settler results in 6000c in the Legendary cities for free. Any blunders in my maths?

Just played a second try. Did better this time and finished around 1500 AD.
Tried building Sinistine and Tach Mahal in a non-legendary city and built a 5th city for extra GP farm. This city popped 3 GP in my game I think.

Big mistake on my part though. I manged to set all specialists to merchants in my extra GP farm for a few turns :cry: and popped a useless great merchant.


---

Q

What do you guys think of getting 3 cotteged cities (including capital) and having a forth city as worker farm early and GP farm for mid/late, possibly adding a 5th city/sec GP farm about the time you reach liberalism. I might try it out lateron.
Last game my GP farm totally sucked culture wise. I bombed 0 in capital, 1 GA in cottage city and I think 9 in GP farm... Well the farm did suck and a good farm should prolly be able to support more than 8 pop but still.

I think that if you get Sistine Chapel, the GP farms will ultimately become Legendary faster than the cottaged cities. Especially if you have a GP farm with a couple of early wonders. All of the artists produce culture afterall.

I am thinking about a different strategy for this: OCC + PA and play GPFarm for my ally.

I do have a couple of questions, however:
1: Which AIs are good at getting an early cultural victory?
I played a test game with Asoka as my PA, and I couldn't get him to touch the slider or spread his religions around at all.
Will the AI recognise that my city will become Legendary, and so only focus on two culture cities?
If I gift the GAs instead of settling them, will my PA culture bomb them in those two cities, or waste them on golden ages and such?

2: Which AIs are easy to get in an early PA?

3: Which map settings make it easiest to get gold or gems at the start? I am all for using MapFinder, but I don't want to run 7000 regenerations to get a good start.

I am thinking about a different strategy for this: OCC + PA and play GPFarm for my ally.


EDIT: All my comments refer to Vanilla/Warlords OCC + PA, unless qualified as BTS.

It will be extremely hard to get a cultural win via OCC + PA at Deity level.
Getting the PA will require mutual war or DP (Military Tradition), followed
by either Communism or Facism to allow the Permanent Alliance.

A date less than 1800 AD will be extremely difficult via OCC + PA
and the top dates for this gauntlet will likely be < 1300 AD.


1: Which AIs are good at getting an early cultural victory?


The AIs in BTS actually try to win via Cultural Victory, so start there.

My experience with OCC + PA is in Warlords which is similar to Vanilla.
Your PA partner will do nothing to increase culture in his two highest culture
cities, until somewhat close to a cultural win. The situation in BTS should
be much better.

Ramesses II will build many WWs early on. Research the tech that unlocks
the WW you want him to build and gift it to him on the turn you research it.
This is advice for Vanilla/Warlords. There may be better choices for BTS.


I played a test game with Asoka as my PA, and I couldn't get him to touch the slider or spread his religions around at all.


Not sure there is a way to force your PA partner to increase the culture
slider. There may be a way to do this in BTS.

If you and your PA partner have about %50 Pop, build or have him build
the UN, and vote for Free Speech.

Gifting missionaries to your PA partner should work somewhat OK in getting
him to spread his (your) religions


Will the AI recognise that my city will become Legendary, and so only focus on two culture cities?


In Vanilla/Warlords this seems to happen, mainly by accident, but only when
a cultural win is only a few turns (10-20) away.

In BTS, where the AIs may have the goal of a cultural win very early in the
game, this may happen earlier than anyone suspects.


If I gift the GAs instead of settling them, will my PA culture bomb them in those two cities, or waste them on golden ages and such?


In Vanilla/Warlords, gifted GAs are bombed in only culturally weak cities near
your capital's high culture. Otherwise, the GAs are used/saved by your PA
partner for golden ages.


2: Which AIs are easy to get in an early PA?


Ramesses II will enter into an early DP. Do almost anything to make him
pleased and he will be ready to enter a PA when it is available.


3: Which map settings make it easiest to get gold or gems at the start? I am all for using MapFinder, but I don't want to run 7000 regenerations to get a good start.

To reduce the number of cities your PA partner has and thus reduce the
number of WWs and other culture wasted, select the maximum # of
opponents (7 for Small). If you are somewhat lucky, he will be land locked
in two cities. Terra map may be best here. (The downside is fewer
potential Cathedrals due to only 2-3 temples per religion.)

For gems at start, Pan and Terra are good.

For golds at start, Inland Sea and Rain forests (BTS only) are good.

Good luck!

Sun Tzu Wu

I am thinking about a different strategy for this: OCC + PA and play GPFarm for my ally.

I do have a couple of questions, however:
1: Which AIs are good at getting an early cultural victory?
I played a test game with Asoka as my PA, and I couldn't get him to touch the slider or spread his religions around at all.
Will the AI recognise that my city will become Legendary, and so only focus on two culture cities?
If I gift the GAs instead of settling them, will my PA culture bomb them in those two cities, or waste them on golden ages and such?

2: Which AIs are easy to get in an early PA?

3: Which map settings make it easiest to get gold or gems at the start? I am all for using MapFinder, but I don't want to run 7000 regenerations to get a good start.

I'm glad somebody's testing this to see how fast it can be done, but I really hope it's not the optimal way for a cultural victory in BTS. We already have space for OCC PA.

1) from posts in the OCC PA gauntlet (you might want to look at this one), ramsees, ghandi, prob some others. IIRC that was before BTS, so don't know about those leaders. Note vanilla/warlords won't work on deity since someone will launch well before your team wins as the AI won't touch the slider. On vanilla, the AI will not bomb a city unless they have <60% culture in it (condition of the SDK). Don't know about BTS.

2) ones whose favorite civics are the ones you will be in at the time: HR, beauo, caste, etc. since it will be easier to get them Friendly. Then those like Cathy, Roos etc. that make a DP only at Pleased. but really you should be able to make it easily with almost anyone. you could even do mutual war and start working on it before MilTrad

3) Actually I've gotten 2commerce starts fastest on fractal, but it's not really that good a script. GP Sea and Pangea seem to be ok, though on GP you are in the mountains, but that's ok for OCC.

I think that if you get Sistine Chapel, the GP farms will ultimately become Legendary faster than the cottaged cities. Especially if you have a GP farm with a couple of early wonders. All of the artists produce culture afterall.

This is not true at all. GP farm will have low production so it will be hard to build cathedrals and such for multiplyer. My GP farm sucked hard because of lack of population as well, its hard to find a really good spot on a small map.

Also specialist artist = 6 culture/turn, cottage = up to 9/10 gold per turn (with or without press), and cottage also produce food.
Anyway, the base culture of GP farm even with sinistine chapel will be alot worse than your cottage cities.

It will be extremely hard to get a cultural win via OCC + PA at Deity level.
Getting the PA will require mutual war or DP (Military Tradition), followed
by either Communism or Facism to allow the Permanent Alliance.

A date less than 1800 AD will be extremely difficult via OCC + PA
and the top dates for this gauntlet will likely be < 1300 AD.


I disagree. This was going to be my secret strategy. Have you ever tried a Space Race in BTS? It's hard cus someone will win culture around 1500. With the help of an OCC PA I think 1300ish is possible. (EDIT: Since we're forced to play normal speed, 1400ish.) I'll need to go back and read your proposed strategy, ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF, and make comments. Have fun with it, I won't be able to join you until July.

BTW how the heck did you land on ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF as a forum name? Wouldn't QWERTY have been easier? ;) Or is it the English keyboard equivalent of something in another alphabet? Just curious.

up to 9/10 gold per turn (with or without press), and cottage also produce food.

10 ? Are you building cottages on gems/river tiles?
Or am I counting wrong?

If I gift the GAs instead of settling them, will my PA culture bomb them in those two cities, or waste them on golden ages and such?


Wasted, unless under severe cultural preassure.
You can settle your GA in their cities after the PA, though.

Since Vanilla AI wouldn't touch the slider, cottages are useless while hammers aren't, so I send my workers to watermill/workshop over their towns.

Since Vanilla AI wouldn't touch the slider, cottages are useless while hammers aren't, so I send my workers to watermill/workshop over their towns.

This should only be attempted in BTS. In vanilla, it would be 1800's before you win. The BTS AI will crank the culture slider and use FreeSpeech. They even do it when you want them to build spaceship parts, so it's important to know which AI get distracted by culture and which will focus on the space race if that is your goal. (I've done a lot of BTS space race lately which is why I planned to try the OCC PA on this gauntlet.)

Ramesses II will enter into an early DP. Do almost anything to make him pleased and he will be ready to enter a PA when it is available.


Ramesses could be a good choice, but IIRC I found a bug in the code for Industrious leaders that make them less likely to go for culture wins than the programmer intended. Normally I like to play by intuition and not spoil the mystery behind the AI by reading the code. It's disappointing to find out exactly how dumb they really are, but I didn't want culture wins to interfere with my Space Colony.

10 ? Are you building cottages on gems/river tiles?
Or am I counting wrong?

Im pretty sure that my Towns at river tiles(without gems) generated 10 gold. Without the river it would have been 9. (This was after I had traded for printing press)
Didnt check all that careful, maybe I was in a golden age or something :)

Thanks for the input, guys.

I will only be trying this with BTS, and have done some looking at the code to see when/if an AI will go for a CV.
The main factor seems to be a pseudorandom number based on the capital's placement, with a substantial boost for economic traits and a small one for owning holy cities. (Good spot on the industrious bug, WastinTime, it only has half the effect.)

I also found that the BTS AI can use GAs to bomb/settle in its Legendary cities, but only in the 3rd one, so this is quite possibly useless here.


With the help of an OCC PA I think 1300ish is possible. (EDIT: Since we're forced to play normal speed, 1400ish.)


I agree with this. Based on my test game, I decided that 1500AD would be more than feasible, and 15-1600 would make a sensible first goal, before trying to push it earlier.


BTW how the heck did you land on ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF as a forum name?


It is a secret code, rotate the letters one back in the (English) alphabet.
I stole it from It was inspired by a crossword puzzle I saw a few years ago.

The main factor seems to be a pseudorandom number based on the capital's placement, with a substantial boost for economic traits and a small one for owning holy cities. (Good spot on the industrious bug, WastinTime, it only has half the effect.)


Right, then leaders that prefer Theocracy (no religion spread) lose some incentive to go for CV.

Checking Aggressive AI has a similar effect for everyone (but who would check that?)

10 = town (4) + river (1) + financial (1) + PP (1) + FreeSpeech (2) + GAge (1)

It will be extremely hard to get a cultural win via OCC + PA at Deity level.
Getting the PA will require mutual war or DP (Military Tradition), followed
by either Communism or Fascism to allow the Permanent Alliance.

A date less than 1800 AD will be extremely difficult via OCC + PA
and the top dates for this gauntlet will likely be < 1300 AD.


Sorry, the above comments were meant to refer to OCC + PA on Vanilla/Warlords.

I disagree. This was going to be my secret strategy. Have you ever tried a Space Race in BTS? It's hard cus someone will win culture around 1500. With the help of an OCC PA I think 1300ish is possible. (EDIT: Since we're forced to play normal speed, 1400ish.) I'll need to go back and read your proposed strategy, ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF, and make comments. Have fun with it, I won't be able to join you until July.

Remaining comments on strategy refer to only OCC + PA on BTS:

Good point about normal speed making the winning date more like AD 14xx
rather than < AD 1300.

So some BTS AIs are winning Culture victories around AD 1500? Mmm,
maybe a Deity Cultural win via OCC + PA is more viable than I thought.
Since I haven't tried OCC + PA on BTS, I will defer to the judgement of
who have.

However, it seems that it would be a disadvantage to have to tech to
either Communism or Fascism just to have the chance of a PA. That's
a lot of researching when a high culture slider would be preferable.
On the other hand, our PA partner is not saddled with Deity handicaps,
so perhaps it is a possible winning strategy for this gauntlet after all.

Sincerely,

Sun Tzu Wu

However, it seems that it would be a disadvantage to have to tech to
either Communism or Fascism just to have the chance of a PA. That's
a lot of researching when a high culture slider would be preferable.
On the other hand, our PA partner is not saddled with Deity handicaps,
so perhaps it is a possible winning strategy for this gauntlet after all.


Ah, but you don't have to tech to communism/fascism. As long as your partner has one of the techs, you can still make the PA.

When going for OCC cultural the AI needs to control all 3 legendary cities right? (you cant use your own capital?)

If you're in PA, you should have 3 among the two of you - that allows to include your capital.

Well, despite all the excellent advice, I´m afraid my third attempt ended in a defeat with a 1660 diplomatic loss to Cyrus.

I´m not too downhearted since I was playing quickly (therefore sub-optimally) to see what would happen. The game seemed to go quite well with only 4 cities so I will try that again. I had a number of problems as follows:-

a) I didn´t get to Liberalism until 450AD (losing the race with Gandhi in 150AD). Clearly there is some room for improvement there. Does anyone have any views on what a reasonable target date is to acheive a win? (Any win, not necessarily a super-fast win).

b) I didn´t concentrate enough on my second cultural city early on. I don´t think I had even a single cottage before 500 AD (doh!).

c) I built the Hermitage in the capital city on the grounds that it is best to maximise culture in your best city. Unfortunately, the capital went ledgendary when the other two cities only had around 15,000 culture each, so there was obvioiusly too much of an imbalance there.

d) I mistakenly (I think) built one GS in the GA farm to start things off, and two more in the capital city. Unfortunately, once the second of these had been built, I was still a little way off liberalism, but didn´t want to run anymore scientists in the capital (wasting GP points and all that). I guess this contributed to my slow time to Lib.

BTW. I am convinced about the secondary GP farms. My fourth city was a bit feeble, but it did manage to pop two GAs, which I thought was quite neat.

I shall try again.

For my fourth try, I rang the changes and went via Parthenon.

Fat lot of good it did. Another loss in 1660. This time a space race defeat to Mansa.

Basically, I made a pigs ear of this - I suspect since I didn´t really know how to adjust to not having representation so early (for the extra happiness and the extra research).

I think I am going to go back to what I know in order to try to post a win.

Lost to Gandhi Space Race 1700
Lost to Gandhi Space Race 1635

I´m going to bed.:(

The games I played I got to liberal by 150 AD and 175 AD I think. My opponents were nowhere near beating me as I was the only one with education (which I traded away a few turns before I discored liberalism).
- Can AI bulb liberalism btw? then maybe this is not such a good idea.

After I reach liberalism trade/tech for music drama and start building cathedrals, hemeratage, sinistine and tach mahal. It helps to chop alot of forests down in this "phase".

Only wonder I build during tech phase is Mausuleum of M, mostly because capital hasnt got so much to build when it comes around and because AI dont get it before me. 1st game I tried for temple of aritmetis as well(had marble) but failed it with 3 turns, I did not however rush for it, I only built it when I had nothing else to build.

TIP: If you have trouble getting a win then maybe you should get worse opponents. While mansa musa and ghandi may tech very hard which allows for faster tech trade possibly, they also achieve faster wins.
You could try playing with bad opponents like Gilgamesh, he just sits all game, sucks at tech and doesnt go to war. Isabella and justitin may work as well. - just a thought

After I reach liberalism trade/tech for music drama and start building cathedrals, hemeratage, sinistine and tach mahal. It helps to chop alot of forests down in this "phase".

I prefer to have chopped everything for my capitol city while still in Bureaucracy for the extra hammers.

I prefer to have chopped everything for my capitol city while still in Bureaucracy for the extra hammers.

Hmm yeah I guess 50% more for chopping could be nice, however with the tech path I used I dont really need the hammers all that bad before I get nationalism and music. What do you build with your forests? :)

Hmm yeah I guess 50% more for chopping could be nice, however with the tech path I used I dont really need the hammers all that bad before I get nationalism and music. What do you build with your forests? :)

I like to be 1st to music (free artist), so there's plenty to build, temples, missionaries, cathedrals, theatre, monast, etc.

Whoa! This is not easy, at least on vanilla. :eek: 1st attempt ended in 1620 diplo loss to Washington. 1st to lib in a respectable time of 125AD, capital legendary a bit later than usual, but ok, gp farm had enough GA's, but 2nd city nowhere near. Mediocre map and only 2 religions though had an effect. Have to go back to the drawing board to get more religion. Maybe even confu before alpha.


EDIT: It shouldn't be that hard to fix though. Hermitage in 2nd cottage city instead of capital, philo instead of spiritual (played Mansa), and one more religion would have done it in 15xx, even with the suboptimal map.

Defeat #7 1605 Space Race Ganhdi
Defeat #8 1660 Diplomacy

The second of these wasn´t too bad an attempt, though I was still probably 20 turns or so off winning.

I probably got to Liberalism around 250AD (though losing the race), and I switched of building (6 cats+hermitage) c 1200.

This begs the question:-

What is the timeline for a win c1600? What are my target dates for

a) Alphabet
b) Liberalism
c) Completing the building phase?

I probably got to Liberalism around 250AD (though losing the race), and I switched of building (6 cats+hermitage) c 1200.


Getting to Liberalism by 250 AD is probably OK.

However, getting beat to Liberalism is bad; it may be advisable to abandon such a game unless cottage development and culture making building are well developed.


This begs the question:-

What is the timeline for a win c1600? What are my target dates for

a) Alphabet


Turn 50 (BC 2000)


b) Liberalism


Turn 120 (AD 125)


c) Completing the building phase?


What are you asking? When to stop building Cathedrals?

Sun Tzu Wu

1610AD.

Decent food-rich map, still no marble and only 3 spread religions. I knew it was going to be a strange game when Mansa founded CoL before the Oracle was built and then Asoka Oracled Feudalism and proceeded to beat me to CS in 800bc. Sure enough, I got beat to Lib in 50 freaking AD and had to self research Nationalism, the rest of Lib and all but 2 turns of PP.

I made a lot of mistakes with the trading. Or it could have just been the usual trades weren't available because of all the crazy AI teching that was going on. Also mistimed my GS pop for philo by 1 turn and lost out to Mansa again. That cathedral would have saved a bunch of turns.

Delayed pacifism until the switch to FS around 400AD. Still popped 14gp (1 late academy, 2 settled, 10 bombed in GP farm and 1 in 2nd city). Capital went legendary on its own.

@Pious Pete
Alpha by t45
CS by 800bc
Lib by 200ad and run FS/Pacifism no matter what the building status is

EDIT: I built 2 WW - Notre Dame, because I had stone and it was still available, and the Colossus :lol: of all things, because my second city was coastal and the AI obsoleted it before anybody built it.

What is the timeline for a win c1600? What are my target dates for
...
c) Completing the building phase?

I don't have a precise timetable, since I don't rushbuy.

Imagine there is a jesusin playing by your side. He will go 100% culture on 250AD, no matter how few catedrals. Are your actions going to beat him or to put you behind him?

All I know for sure is the last cathedral in each city should be finished by hand (the slow way). IMO, you are rushbuying too much.

Do the maths around 750AD: when would you win if you went 100% culture right now? Now compare that to running 100% gold for N turns, buying another cathedral and then running 100% culture till the end, is that worth it?

Getting to Liberalism by 250 AD is probably OK.

However, getting beat to Liberalism is bad; it may be advisable to abandon such a game unless cottage development and culture making building are well developed.


I think you are probably right about abandoning such games. I believe I read Jesusin claiming to finish all games, but I suspect I am wasting rather a lot of time playing through doomed outcomes.

What are you asking? When to stop building Cathedrals?


Essentially, yes.

I don't have a precise timetable, since I don't rushbuy.

Imagine there is a jesusin playing by your side. He will go 100% culture on 250AD, no matter how few catedrals...

All I know for sure is the last cathedral in each city should be finished by hand (the slow way). IMO, you are rushbuying too much.


I suspect you are correct. My last game was better than my previous ones precisely because fewer religions spread and I was forced to build fewer cathedrals.

I´m going to try superhard in my next game to sit on my hands after 250AD i.e. let any cats finish themselves and not start any new ones and see where that gets me.

1610AD.
@Pious Pete
Alpha by t45
CS by 800bc
Lib by 200ad and run FS/Pacifism no matter what the building status is


Thanks for that. These dates chime in pretty well with what Jesusin and Sun Tzu Wi suggest, so I´m going to use these as the benchmark in my next game.

I suspect you are correct. My last game was better than my previous ones precisely because fewer religions spread and I was forced to build fewer cathedrals.

I´m going to try superhard in my next game to sit on my hands after 250AD i.e. let any cats finish themselves and not start any new ones and see where that gets me.

No, you should continue building as many as you can, you just have to build them from scratch without OR or beauro. Sometimes I will save a couple forests in the 2nd city for this purpose. But WastinTime is right, you should chop out your capital while under beauro. And don't do early chopping either, except to get a settler out.

That's another point - is your capital build queue worker-warrior-settler-settler? If not that could be one of the reasons you are having difficulty.

I think you are probably right about abandoning such games. I believe I read Jesusin claiming to finish all games, but I suspect I am wasting rather a lot of time playing through doomed outcomes.

If it's doomed for certain sure, but missing lib doesn't necessarily mean that, as my result proves. I think if you have good 2nd city and gp farm and can still research lib and nationalsim by around 400AD you should press on even if you are beat to lib.

I suspect you are correct. My last game was better than my previous ones precisely because fewer religions spread and I was forced to build fewer cathedrals.

I´m going to try superhard in my next game to sit on my hands after 250AD i.e. let any cats finish themselves and not start any new ones and see where that gets me.

Try building every Cathedral you have the religion and strategic (hammer doubling) resource for. Never gold rush these.

If you are missing the strategic resource, think hard about building that Cathedral. These can be gold rushed into hammer poor cultural cities, but these are also the cities that should be bombed by late GAs. If you do build them, they should be the last Cathedrals you build, since they take forever to build; you want the cultural multiplying effect of your cheaper Cathedrals while building these expensive ones.

Don't be shy about gold rushing temples you need to allow the corresponding Cathedral, especial if you want to build that Cathedral in 1-2 turns. Hammer build the temples for at least 1 turn to avoid the 4.5 gold per hammer price. 3 gold per hammer is bad enough.

Non-Cathedral related ideas:

For normal speed, early GAs probably could be settled. It's hard to compute the turn at which GAs should be saved. I'd say, error on the side of saving GAs earlier than you think may be optimal, since it will be much easier to know where to bomb them on the last few turns than where to settle them early.

BTW, turn 120 for Liberalism may be a little too aggressive. I'd say that turn 125 (AD 250) is right on target.

Don't forgot to run the cultural slider as high as possible. The best way to use gold is to save it till later after all Cathedrals are build and use that gold (deficit spent) to run the cultural slider at 100% until you run of gold and win (ideally at the same time).

Build as few non-culture adding buildings as possible. About the only exception is the Aqueduct and maybe Grocer for adding Health when absolutely necessary. However, running a city at a large negative Health can be better than building these Health buildings, especially later in the game.

Sun Tzu Wu

If you need gold, just ask. You should be able to get at least 60 from most of them at least twice if you wait long enough between the requests. It really helps stay at 100% slider before you can trade your happies.

If it's doomed for certain sure, but missing lib doesn't necessarily mean that, as my result proves. I think if you have good 2nd city and gp farm and can still research lib and nationalsim by around 400AD you should press on even if you are beat to lib.


I didn't mean to imply that every cultural game should be abandoned if the race to Liberalism is lost, but the Civ that beat you to Liberalism will often beat you in the end. Only abandon, if too much else has gone wrong in addition to losing the race to Liberalism.

BTW, in your race to Liberalism, never research a Technology that's either not on the way to Alphabet, Music or Liberalism or that could be easily traded for later. Think twice about making trades for Technologies that aren't really required for a cultural win.

Sun Tzu Wu

If you need gold, just ask.

That's very kind of you.
I am a bit short of cash myself, wouldn't you send me anything?


:D

No, you should continue building as many as you can, you just have to build them from scratch without OR or beauro.



In my most recent game (of which more later), I finished building my 2 cats by 1030. I only had one religion until 1250 when a couple more spread.

I decided to sit on my hands at this point, because it seemed a bit late to be building cats. I guess it´s a matter of judgement as to when its not worth it.

That's another point - is your capital build queue worker-warrior-settler-settler? If not that could be one of the reasons you are having difficulty.


Until fairly recently, my build queue was worker-settler-worker-pyramids with warriors thrown in so that settler build was at size 2, and the second worker at size 3.

However, I am now trying for wins without any world wonders, and my queue has been worker-settler-settler (with the second city building a settler straight away as well). I´ve been throwing warriors in as appropriate.

But what is appropriate? I grow to size 2 before starting on the 1st settler. Should I grow to size 3 before starting on the second?

About the only exception is the Aqueduct and maybe Grocer for adding Health when absolutely necessary. However, running a city at a large negative Health can be better than building these Health buildings, especially later in the game.

Sun Tzu Wu

I always build the aquaduct; but I am convinced that negative health is preferable to building a grocer.

Lost to Gandhi, space race 1675.

Key milestones:-

Alpha 1920 BC
CS 400 BC
Lib 500 AD (Losing out to Gandhi c 300 AD)
2 Cats + Hermitage built by 1030 AD.
Only 1 religion until 1230 when, like #7 buses, three turned up at once. I built no further religious buildings.
No world wonders.

At the end I was probably c30 turns of a victory.

On the face of it, this is not very promising; but it is quite encouraging to me.

Basically, I couldn´t sleep last night (planning my next assault on GM29), so I thought I´d get up and play a test game with no world wonders, which I did.

The start wasn´t very good (1 pig, 1 gem, 1 FP), since I didn´t have time to run mapfinder, so the game probably was doomed from the outset; but I think I learnt quite a lot.

With a better start, I think I could pull back 7 turns or so to win the lib race, and this would save another 10 turns or so on Nat. Plus hopefully I´d be able to trade for PP or Econ (which I didn´t get in this game). Also, if I could pop Philo first to get another religion, I think all this might make the difference.

Hopefully I can have another go tonight.

I start out with worker, then I build about 2 warriors and grow to size 4 or 5 depending on start. Then 3x settler and most likly 1x worker in capital.
First city will build a worker

In my most recent game (of which more later), I finished building my 2 cats by 1030. I only had one religion until 1250 when a couple more spread.

I decided to sit on my hands at this point, because it seemed a bit late to be building cats. I guess it´s a matter of judgement as to when its not worth it.

I agree with FiveAces, never stop building Cathedrals unless you have something better to do with your hammers. Build with or without Bureaucracy and/or Organized Religion, but focus on those Cathedrals whose corresponding strategic resource (Marble, Stone or Copper) you have.

Hermitage should be built even if you lack all hammer multipliers, probably in the Culture city with the highest hammer value, so it gets built somewhat quickly.

BTW, a Forge like all non-Culture buildings (with the possible exception of Aqueduct and Grocer for Health) is almost certainly a waste of hammers, since it provides only a 1.25x multiplier. If you have 3-4 Cathedrals, 3-4 Monasteries and 3-4 Temples to build in the same Cultural city, building a Forge first could be a net gain, even considering the delayed early culture lost while building it. On the other hand, with only 1-2 Cathedrals, 1-2 Monasteries and 1-2 Temples per Culture city, building a Forge first will delay the Culture multiplying effect of the Cathedrals without a net benefit.

On the other hand, building non-Culture buildings in the non-Culture cities can be good. For example a Courthouse can be built when there's nothing better to do or it could build Wealth. When a Culture city has no Culture buildings left to build, it should build culture, unless it is the only source for a needed Missionary (that will allow additional Culture building in another Culture city).

Sun Tzu Wu

Until fairly recently, my build queue was worker-settler-worker-pyramids with warriors thrown in so that settler build was at size 2, and the second worker at size 3.


A player owning The Pyramids seems to be a target for at least one the AIs at deity level. Every time I've gone for a cultural win and included building The Pyramids as part of my strategy, an AI would later eventually attack me. jesusin has had the same experience when building The Pyramids as well, 6 of 6 times as I recall. The only effective method for avoiding this is great diplomacy, since building up a military is a waste of hammers for a cultural victory goal. Building The Pyramids may still be a viable option, but extreme care with diplomacy may be required.


However, I am now trying for wins without any world wonders, and my queue has been worker-settler-settler (with the second city building a settler straight away as well). I´ve been throwing warriors in as appropriate.

But what is appropriate? I grow to size 2 before starting on the 1st settler. Should I grow to size 3 before starting on the second?


A worker on turn 0 should be a given in any Settler building strategy, unless you're doing a Quechua rush which can't be used in gauntlets anymore. Trying to grow the capital to size 2 or 3, before building the first Worker, just delays the completion of that first Worker. Without that first Worker, there will be no improvements or pre-chopped forests, so why delay it longer than necessary?

ssjos may have the best city building strategy, start a Worker on turn 0, build up to Population 4-5 and build 3 Settlers in a row and possibly a 2nd Worker. With enough food resources improved by the first Worker, pre-chopping forests may not even be needed to get the Settlers out quickly. This should also maximize research, since you will have only one city for a longer period of time with zero overhead.

Sun Tzu Wu

Until fairly recently, my build queue was worker-settler-worker-pyramids with warriors thrown in so that settler build was at size 2, and the second worker at size 3.

However, I am now trying for wins without any world wonders, and my queue has been worker-settler-settler (with the second city building a settler straight away as well). I´ve been throwing warriors in as appropriate.

But what is appropriate? I grow to size 2 before starting on the 1st settler. Should I grow to size 3 before starting on the second?

You should grow to at least size 3 before the first (working 2 commerce and 1 food during the build) and size 4 if you have a second food.

I am rusty. A very important bit of early strategy is this:
Your first Worker must travel with your first built settler.
I'll try not to forget again.

I am rusty. A very important bit of early strategy is this:
Your first Worker must travel with your first built settler.
I'll try not to forget again.

Curious - Would you still do that if he could only build a grassland cottage? Or do you make sure there is an ag resource or FP in the initial culture box?

Anyone trying the BTS PA route - why OCC? Wouldn't you want 2 cities? That way you could have a GP farm and build cathedrals in the capital and your partner only needs to get his first city legendary.

I am hating oracling CoL. It's a nice boost to research, but I find it delays the library in the capital too much. Also, being so soon, the second city doesn't have time enough to pop a GS before the capital's GPro.


Curious - Would you still do that if he could only build a grassland cottage? Or do you make sure there is an ag resource or FP in the initial culture box?


Well, of course the Worker has to have a couple of improvements to do. Tipically farm food resource and mine grassland hill. That way the second city can colaborate towards Workers and Settlers.

I am hating oracling CoL. It's a nice boost to research, but I find it delays the library in the capital too much. Also, being so soon, the second city doesn't have time enough to pop a GS before the capital's GPro.

Well if you founded confu in the 2nd cottage city, which will get hermitage+caths, that Gpro for a shrine is definitely not a waste. You will never pop a gp from there, working mines and cottages, so pool pollution is not an issue.

A player owning The Pyramids seems to be a target for at least one the AIs at deity level. Every time I've gone for a cultural win and included building The Pyramids as part of my strategy, an AI would later eventually attack me. jesusin has had the same experience when building The Pyramids as well, 6 of 6 times as I recall. The only effective method for avoiding this is great diplomacy, since building up a military is a waste of hammers for a cultural victory goal. Building The Pyramids may still be a viable option, but extreme care with diplomacy may be required.


OMFG, yesterday I had the best game as of yet and I was looking to build a late wonder in my capital to put some idle hammers to use.

I was like, I have stone, noone has pyramids lets do it. I built pyramids, and about 5 turns after that just as I reached liberalism, Isabella declared war from the other side of the map.
She had about 5 maces, 5 catapults and 5 horsearchers moved over my border...

I had at least +3 relations and cautios I may even have been pleased :cry:

Bummer ssjos. That sounds like a MaxWar delcaration where Izzy would have decided to go to war with you many turns before because of the RNG. It probably just coincided with your finishing the mids. That is one reason why it is good idea to use only the leaders that will not DOW you at Pleased (I don't think Izzy is in this category) as opponents. Since your power will be well below everyone else, if a civ gets the RNG to DOW on any particular turn, they will pick you unless your diplo relation prevents it. That's also a reason to beeline alpha - once there you should be able to keep everyone pleased throughout.

IIRC, Cautious does not prevent a RNG DOW with anybody on vanilla.

Anyone trying the BTS PA route - why OCC? Wouldn't you want 2 cities? That way you could have a GP farm and build cathedrals in the capital and your partner only needs to get his first city legendary.

Two reasons:
1) I want Globe + Nat. Park + Nat Epic (+ Hermitage) in one city with lots of biology farms.
2) I had kind of assumed that the AI is better at getting its 2nd and 3rd cities to Legendary than an ordinary non turbo-charged GP Farm. (If you gift any GAs, it will culture bomb them all in the city with the third highest culture rate - even if it is already Legendary. This is something I am taking advantage of)

One more thing - playing OCC means more space for my ally to expand into.

I have been teching up to Scientific Method (by lightbulbing) and then gifting it all to Mansa (my PA target) as the fastest way to get to Communism, for a 15xx finish.

There is a lot more randomness with the map than in a normal game, as I need Mansa to be next to me (ideally far away with lots of room for cities) and the common war target not next to me.

Two reasons:
1) I want Globe + Nat. Park + Nat Epic (+ Hermitage) in one city with lots of biology farms.
2) I had kind of assumed that the AI is better at getting its 2nd and 3rd cities to Legendary than an ordinary non turbo-charged GP Farm. (If you gift any GAs, it will culture bomb them all in the city with the third highest culture rate - even if it is already Legendary. This is something I am taking advantage of)

One more thing - playing OCC means more space for my ally to expand into.

I have been teching up to Scientific Method (by lightbulbing) and then gifting it all to Mansa (my PA target) as the fastest way to get to Communism, for a 15xx finish.

There is a lot more randomness with the map than in a normal game, as I need Mansa to be next to me (ideally far away with lots of room for cities) and the common war target not next to me.

That's interesting - sounds like you're building just a GP farm and not using it as one of the three legendary cities? It's a different strategy than I would use if I had BTS. I wouldn't bother with Globe or NP or anything in the capital - Just hermitage. NE I would build in the GP farm as usual. I would tech to MilTrad for DP, then drop research to whatever % I felt would get me to communism the same date as the capital went legendary. And I wouldn't want them to super expand - better to have fewer cities to focus the culture buildings and wonders.

But why be satisfied with 15xx? Your capital can go legendary well before that with cottages and cathedrals, so the critical path should be the AI's second city. If they can't get that before 1400 there's not much point in the PA route for best time - you can get 15xx on your own.

@Fiveaces:

I am using the capital as a Legendary city; with 20+ Artists it goes mighty fast. :D
The limiting factor is how fast the AI's capital can get to legendary, I need to settle 2-3 artists (maybe more) to get it to catch up.

I had wanted a super expanding ally because I want them to tech fast. Half the time they need to get to the modern age before they will push the slider. Maybe this is wrong, and I should just wait for an Industrial culture push (~25 turns earlier, but no Electricity/Radio wonders).

I will try out the ordinary strategy and PA without OCC for comparison; so far my aim has just been to show that OCC + PA can compete.
I messed up my best start by wasting 2GPs with misclicks and missing Liberalism. If I were to play that map again I think I could finish pre-1500, although 1400 would really be pushing it.

Lost space race to Gandhi, 1675 (again)

Start: Gems, Wheat, 2FP (no plains hill)
Alpha 1600 BC
CS 400 BC
Lib 350 AD (winning the race)
No world wonders
3GS (Philo,Edu,Edu) 7 GA
3 Spread Early Religions
6 Cats built + Hermitage (No cat had access to reqd resource)

Following the comments in the forum, I built as many cats as possible for as long as possible.

Despite having a better start and winning the race to lib, I still fell short by around 30 turns again. This is getting frustrating.

In my next game, I´m going to try a different approach to settler building, c.f the comments in the posts above.

I start out with worker, then I build about 2 warriors and grow to size 4 or 5 depending on start. Then 3x settler and most likly 1x worker in capital.
First city will build a worker

Thats interesting. I can see why this would work in theory; but in practice I´ve always found that this approach seems to be a bit slow in getting city 2 in situ (in comparison to Godonuts approach which I have been using up to now).

However, I´ll definitely give this a bash in my next game. I definitely need to try something different.

I agree with FiveAces, never stop building Cathedrals unless you have something better to do with your hammers. Sun Tzu Wu

O.K. I tried that in my last game. I can´t say that it seemed to make any appreciable difference, but that may be because I had access to none of the cat resources. I will perservere with this advice though in my next game.

A player owning The Pyramids seems to be a target for at least one the AIs at deity level. Every time I've gone for a cultural win and included building The Pyramids as part of my strategy, an AI would later eventually attack me.
Sun Tzu Wu

I find this surprising. Prior to this gauntlet I have played a lot of cultural diety games (usually on tiny maps) always building pyramids, and only rarely did I experience DOWs. In fact, I´ve had as many out-of-the blue DOWs in this gauntlet without pyramids, as in my previous games with pyramids.

A worker on turn 0 should be a given in any Settler building strategy, unless you're doing a Quechua rush which can't be used in gauntlets.
Sun Tzu Wu

I agree about the worker. I was in fact seeking confirmation that growing to size 2 is best before building a settler, but everyone seems to be suggesting that it should be size 3, 4 (or maybe even 5!). I´ll definitely be trying this in my next game.

You should grow to at least size 3 before the first (working 2 commerce and 1 food during the build) and size 4 if you have a second food.

Ah! A rule that I can follow to decide on whether size 3 or 4 is best.

I am rusty. A very important bit of early strategy is this:
Your first Worker must travel with your first built settler.
I'll try not to forget again.

I´ve seen this advice before. I can see that it is sound advice. It´s just that it is always so tempting to do one more thing, and one more thing, and one more thing at city 1 before sending him (or her) off. I need to be more disciplined.

Diplomatic defeat to Gandhi, 1620

Start: Wheat, 2FP, Plains Hill, Cow
Alpha 1800 BC
CS 400 BC
Lib 225 AD (lost by 1 turn to Gandhi)
No world wonders
2GS (Philo,Edu) 7 GA
1 Early Religion Spread, two more at 940Ad and 1249 AD
5 Cats built + Hermitage

I fell short by around 30 turns again.

The way libraries work vis-a-vis specialists has been puzzling me for a while. In my last game I built a library in my capital around 1400 BC and I would have liked to run specialists straight-away. However, for some reason, I was unable to run specialists until around 350 BC. Does anyone have any idea why this should be?

The concensus appears to be that the optimal number of GS for this challenge is 2-3 to pop philo and edu.

What is the best way to get these GSs? At present, I aim to run 2 scientists in my capital city (when I am allowed :mad:) as soon as possible. I don´t normally switch to Caste System until I get buro, when I might run 3. I don´t usually run scientists in other cities.

Is this "correct"? Is there a better way of doing this?

At present, I don´t normally get Music until after Liberalism when I usually get it in a trade.

However, it occurs to me that this might be a problem since it would be better if some cats were in place when switching to FS after lib.

However, when I´ve tried researching Music earlier, my progress to Lib is slowed.

I´ll probably try for music first in my next game (since I seem to be losing out to lib anyway), but I´d be interested to know how other people actually get hold of Music.

At present, I don´t normally get Music until after Liberalism when I usually get it in a trade.

However, it occurs to me that this might be a problem since it would be better if some cats were in place when switching to FS after lib.

However, when I´ve tried researching Music earlier, my progress to Lib is slowed.

I´ll probably try for music first in my next game (since I seem to be losing out to lib anyway), but I´d be interested to know how other people actually get hold of Music.

If it were available at CS, I would use that, but it's usually not. Next I try to manipulate paper for it - trade paper to one AI (not Mansa) for any other tech the civ who will trade Music doesn't have. Next turn trade for music. Or paper+gold. Just don't do it until you are almost done education. Your research times don't allow self-researching it - you still need to finish lib ~250AD if you go for Music. Since you will have to research lit or drama too, you won't be 1st to Lib and music unless you figure out a way to increase your research rate to make up for the extra turns.

Diplomatic defeat to Gandhi, 1620

Start: Wheat, 2FP, Plains Hill, Cow
Alpha 1800 BC
CS 400 BC
Lib 225 AD (lost by 1 turn to Gandhi)
No world wonders
2GS (Philo,Edu) 7 GA
1 Early Religion Spread, two more at 940Ad and 1249 AD
5 Cats built + Hermitage

I fell short by around 30 turns again.

1) Stop using Ghandi. Yes, he rarely DOW's, but he messes things up by building UN early (even if he doesn't win, he might call for a vote on emancipation :eek: and kill your GP farm) and researching alpha early.

2) You are not popping enough great people. You should aim to pop at least 14 by 1600AD. Heck you need at least 10 GA to bomb the GP farm alone by 16xx. Either you are founding your GP farm too late, building something other than gran, lib, NE, not managing it properly (after NE work only 4:food:+ tiles and artists) or not running pacifism early enough.

This game started out good; many things went wrong, wasted time, hammers, food and commerce, but still pulled out a nice BTS Win.

Summary: Alphabet t46 (BC 2160), Music t89 (BC 650), Civil Service t111 (traded BC 100), Philosophy t110 (BC 125), Liberalism t139 (AD 580).

Player: Elizabeth (Philosophical & Financial)

Opponents: Darius I, Roosevelt, Lincoln and Sitting Bull. They are all very peaceful, and have neither Mining or Mysticism starting Technologies.

Start: River Sugar, River Gems, Gems, Corn; RP Hill, RG Hill, 6 RG, 1 P, 1 Lake, 6 G (1 with Horses), and about 6 Forests.

Got Bronze Working from a Hut on turn 7. Could have done an extra early Axe rush ... but I wanted a peaceful win.

Completed first Worker on turn 12.

Researched: Agriculture t9, Wheel t18, Pottery t24, Writing t31, Alphabet t46, Aesthetics t58, Polytheism t61, Literature t67, Drama t77 (should have skipped), Music t89; Masonry t90 (everyone had it, but no one would trade it), Theology (first) t101, Philosophy t110, Paper t118, Education t131, (Darius I completes Liberalism t133), Liberalism t139 (AD 580), Printing Press t151; 40% of Nationalism t155; 43% of Constitution t160; Democracy t172; (Res 100 -> Res 20); Guilds t187; (Res 20 -> Res 00); Banking t230; Gunpowder (nearly completed).

Tech. trades: Sailing for Writing, Hunting for Writing, Archery for Writing, Iron Working for Alphabet, and Mysticism + Animal Husbandry for Alphabet on t47; Priesthood for Polytheism t61; Mathematics for Aesthetics t77; Mediation + Monotheism for Aesthetics t90; Monarchy for Drama t96, Code of Laws + 20G for Literature + Drama t98; Horseback Riding for Aesthetics + 30G (crazy?) t101; Calendar + 40G for Theology; Metal Casting for Theology + 40G t104; 70G for Aesthetics t110; Civil Service + 50G for Philosophy + Drama t111; Machinery for Philosophy + 120G (For Macemen?) t111; Feudalism + Compass + Construction + WM + 70G for Education t133; WM + 180G for Compass t136; 60% of Nationalism + WM + 120G for Education t155; 57% of Constitution + 15G for Liberalism t160;

Great Scientist born & creates Academy t59.

Demands: Sitting Bull demanded Iron Working & got it t53; Darius I demanded conversion to Confucianism & got it (probably war otherwise) t142;

Early Improvements: Corn Farm t16, R Gems Mine t21.

Cities Built: York Cultural t34 (built in 10t; no chopping), Nottingham Cultural (should have been work horse city), Hastings Working City (should have been cultural).

Capital: Pop rushed Library t43, National Epic t67-t91; The Sistine Chapel t104-t127; Hermitage t177-t188.

Nottingham: The Parthenon t109-failed.

Cathedrals: Nottingham Confucian t176-t185, Buddhist, Christian & Hindu; York Confucian t176-t185; Buddhist, Christian, Jewish & Hindu t231; London (Hermitage) only Jewish.

Culture Cities built all Monasteries and Temples with later ones gold rushed.

Civics: Slavery (just before 2nd city) t33; Bureaucracy + Pacifism t111; Universal Suffrage t172;

Head Aches: Lincoln built The Apostolic Palace t111; Darius I built UN t240.

State Religion Changes: Judaism -> Confucianism -> Buddhism: To take advantage of The Sistine Chapel's cultural bonus for religious buildings, I converted to Judaism when my two neighbors (Darius I and Sitting Bull) were Jewish. Then Darius I switches to Confucianism and when he also insists that I also do so, I must comply. Finally, Lincoln puts forward a Religious Leader Diplomatic Victory and comes close to winning. At that point, I decide it is best to convert to his religion, Buddhism, to become a full member and with others put a stop to his dreams of victory. For insurance, I converted the unconverted cities of Roosevelt and Sitting Bull (who aren't very pleased with Lincoln) to Buddhism.

Hope this helps someone with some of the details of a late win.

Sun Tzu Wu

Tried two more games yesterday. First one was not going so well and was won in 1590, second one felt really great but I still didnt finish before 1515.
Missed tach mahal with 1 turn and didnt have MoM so that was kinda bad but otherwise I dunno, I really thought I would beat my best win with that second game but I failed.

Really annoying though:
375 AD XXX (Great engineer) Born for Ghandi.

400 AD Ghandis golden age has started
400 AD Ghandi has completed Tach Mahal - I am one turn away :(

At present, I don´t normally get Music until after Liberalism when I usually get it in a trade.

However, it occurs to me that this might be a problem since it would be better if some cats were in place when switching to FS after lib.

However, when I´ve tried researching Music earlier, my progress to Lib is slowed.

I´ll probably try for music first in my next game (since I seem to be losing out to lib anyway), but I´d be interested to know how other people actually get hold of Music.

If you are playing BTS, I would rush Music. You get a free GA for being first to discover and you can build the Sistine Chapel (+5 culture per religious building and +2 culture per specialist).

If it were available at CS, I would use that, but it's usually not. Next I try to manipulate paper for it - trade paper to one AI (not Mansa) for any other tech the civ who will trade Music doesn't have. Next turn trade for music. Or paper+gold. Just don't do it until you are almost done education. Your research times don't allow self-researching it - you still need to finish lib ~250AD if you go for Music.

I have played a game subsequent to this post, and I did use this approach successfully to trade for music a little earlier than usual, so thanks for that tip.

Stop using Ghandi. Yes, he rarely DOW's, but he messes things up by building UN early (even if he doesn't win, he might call for a vote on emancipation :eek: and kill your GP farm) and researching alpha early.

Well, I subbed Asoka for Gandhi in my next game. Result? Space race loss to Asoka in 1695. Doh!

You are not popping enough great people. You should aim to pop at least 14 by 1600AD. Heck you need at least 10 GA to bomb the GP farm alone by 16xx. Either you are founding your GP farm too late, building something other than gran, lib, NE, not managing it properly (after NE work only 4:food:+ tiles and artists) or not running pacifism early enough.

Can you pop 14 by 1600, even if you don´t have the Parthenon?

I must confess that I am building an aquaduct in the GP farm. I´ll try to avoid this in the next game.

I also build temples. Presumably this is OK; otherwise I´d have to found a fifth city to get the 2 cats per religion.

I´m switching to pacifism when I have researched lib. I only adopt a state religion though when all but one of my opponents have gone to free religion. (Though in my last game Cyrus asked me to adopt Buddhism which I duly did, and then forgot to switch back to no religion. No apparent harm came of it).

I also have to confess that I am not using the GP farm as a legendary city. My logic is that at the point that you are going to use the GA bombs, the third legendary city should be the one that has the most culture points. If you develop a third cultural city apart from the GP farm, it always has more cultural points than the GP farm. The only potential flaw in this line of reasoning is that if you have three "proper" legendary cities rather than 2 + a GP farm, you have to share the available cats between three cities rather than two, so each one doesn´t get as many. Hmmm. Maybe that is quite significant?

This game started out good; many things went wrong, wasted time, hammers, food and commerce, but still pulled out a nice BTS Win.

Summary: Alphabet t46 (BC 2160), Music t89 (BC 650), Civil Service t111 (traded BC 100), Philosophy t110 (BC 125), Liberalism t139 (AD 580).

Player: Elizabeth (Philosophical & Financial)

Opponents: Darius I, Roosevelt, Lincoln and Sitting Bull. They are all very peaceful, and have neither Mining or Mysticism starting Technologies.

Start: River Sugar, River Gems, Gems, Corn; RP Hill, RG Hill, 6 RG, 1 P, 1 Lake, 6 G (1 with Horses), and about 6 Forests.

Got Bronze Working from a Hut on turn 7. Could have done an extra early Axe rush ... but I wanted a peaceful win.

Completed first Worker on turn 12.

Researched: Agriculture t9, Wheel t18, Pottery t24, Writing t31, Alphabet t46, Aesthetics t58, Polytheism t61, Literature t67, Drama t77 (should have skipped), Music t89; Masonry t90 (everyone had it, but no one would trade it), Theology (first) t101, Philosophy t110, Paper t118, Education t131, (Darius I completes Liberalism t133), Liberalism t139 (AD 580), Printing Press t151; 40% of Nationalism t155; 43% of Constitution t160; Democracy t172; (Res 100 -> Res 20); Guilds t187; (Res 20 -> Res 00); Banking t230; Gunpowder (nearly completed).

Tech. trades: Sailing for Writing, Hunting for Writing, Archery for Writing, Iron Working for Alphabet, and Mysticism + Animal Husbandry for Alphabet on t47; Priesthood for Polytheism t61; Mathematics for Aesthetics t77; Mediation + Monotheism for Aesthetics t90; Monarchy for Drama t96, Code of Laws + 20G for Literature + Drama t98; Horseback Riding for Aesthetics + 30G (crazy?) t101; Calendar + 40G for Theology; Metal Casting for Theology + 40G t104; 70G for Aesthetics t110; Civil Service + 50G for Philosophy + Drama t111; Machinery for Philosophy + 120G (For Macemen?) t111; Feudalism + Compass + Construction + WM + 70G for Education t133; WM + 180G for Compass t136; 60% of Nationalism + WM + 120G for Education t155; 57% of Constitution + 15G for Liberalism t160;

Great Scientist born & creates Academy t59.

Demands: Sitting Bull demanded Iron Working & got it t53; Darius I demanded conversion to Confucianism & got it (probably war otherwise) t142;

Early Improvements: Corn Farm t16, R Gems Mine t21.

Cities Built: York Cultural t34 (built in 10t; no chopping), Nottingham Cultural (should have been work horse city), Hastings Working City (should have been cultural).

Capital: Pop rushed Library t43, National Epic t67-t91; The Sistine Chapel t104-t127; Hermitage t177-t188.

Nottingham: The Parthenon t109-failed.

Cathedrals: Nottingham Confucian t176-t185, Buddhist, Christian & Hindu; York Confucian t176-t185; Buddhist, Christian, Jewish & Hindu t231; London (Hermitage) only Jewish.

Culture Cities built all Monasteries and Temples with later ones gold rushed.

Civics: Slavery (just before 2nd city) t33; Bureaucracy + Pacifism t111; Universal Suffrage t172;

Head Aches: Lincoln built The Apostolic Palace t111; Darius I built UN t240.

State Religion Changes: Judaism -> Confucianism -> Buddhism: To take advantage of The Sistine Chapel's cultural bonus for religious buildings, I converted to Judaism when my two neighbors (Darius I and Sitting Bull) were Jewish. Then Darius I switches to Confucianism and when he also insists that I also do so, I must comply. Finally, Lincoln puts forward a Religious Leader Diplomatic Victory and comes close to winning. At that point, I decide it is best to convert to his religion, Buddhism, to become a full member and with others put a stop to his dreams of victory. For insurance, I converted the unconverted cities of Roosevelt and Sitting Bull (who aren't very pleased with Lincoln) to Buddhism.

Hope this helps someone with some of the details of a late win.

Sun Tzu Wu

Bit thin on detail that write-up. I mean, what did you have for breakfast? Or is that classified? ;)

If you are playing BTS, I would rush Music. You get a free GA for being first to discover and you can build the Sistine Chapel (+5 culture per religious building and +2 culture per specialist).

I do have BTS, but I am playing vanilla.

Well, you might think that since my performance on this Gauntlet is an unmitigated tale of woe, I should switch to BTS and try that.

I have 2 CD/DVDs on my computer; unfortunately, following a rather unnerving screeching sound, a loud bang, and copious amounts of smoke, one of the drives stopped working. With my copy of BTS inside. I have yet to disassemble my PC to extract it. So I am afraid that I will have to perservere with Vanilla.

Space race loss to Asoka 1695

Civ: Elizabeth
Opps: Asoka, Cyrus, Hatty, Mansa
Start: Wheat, Plains Hill, 4 FP.
Alpha 1940 BC, CS 325 BC, Lib 400 AD. Lost by about 8 turns (200AD).
No world wonders.
2GS (Philo, Edu). c 8 GA.

4 religions spread early, and a couple more late on. I was building religious buildings of one sort or another until the very end.

I was probably c 30 turns off a victory still.

BTW. I am running 100% science or culture most of the time now, so that particular problem has been resolved.

Spaceship defeat to Asoka 1665

Not much to say. Didn´t really glean anything new from this.

Why do you wait until Liberalism to run Pacifism? Isn't pacifism crucial to maximising great artists?

Can you pop 14 by 1600, even if you don´t have the Parthenon?

I must confess that I am building an aquaduct in the GP farm. I´ll try to avoid this in the next game.

I also build temples. Presumably this is OK; otherwise I´d have to found a fifth city to get the 2 cats per religion.

I´m switching to pacifism when I have researched lib. I only adopt a state religion though when all but one of my opponents have gone to free religion. (Though in my last game Cyrus asked me to adopt Buddhism which I duly did, and then forgot to switch back to no religion. No apparent harm came of it).

I also have to confess that I am not using the GP farm as a legendary city. My logic is that at the point that you are going to use the GA bombs, the third legendary city should be the one that has the most culture points. If you develop a third cultural city apart from the GP farm, it always has more cultural points than the GP farm. The only potential flaw in this line of reasoning is that if you have three "proper" legendary cities rather than 2 + a GP farm, you have to share the available cats between three cities rather than two, so each one doesn´t get as many. Hmmm. Maybe that is quite significant?

Yes - in my 1610 game I built academy, settled 2 GA's, bombed 10 in the GP farm and 1 in the second city. That's 14. I did not build the parthenon. I did have a good aux GP Farm though (grass sheep, corn, 2fp).

Slowbuilding the aqueduct is ok. If you are at 2:yuck: sending 1 artist to the mines is ok as long as it cuts the aqueduct build time in half or more.

Slowbuilding temples is ok, building them before NE or maybe pacifism is ok, and if you're spiritual it's ok. Otherwise you should have a fifth city to do this.

You must take a religion earlier. You need the benefit or OR/Pacifism asap. Mostly pacifism.

By 1600AD your GP farm should have built 10k:culture:, so it needs 10 GA bombs to go legendary. Say that you managed to pop 14 GA's by 1600 and you are following your strategy of not making the GP farm legendary. Look at one of your old saves around 1600. Excluding any earlier bombs or the estimated effect of any settled artists, are 14 bombs spread around your 3 cities enough to get them legendary? If not you need to do something different.

Space race loss to Asoka 1695


Note my recent win at AD 1715. None of my opponents had more than one space ship part built when I won (as I recall). I was more worried about the UN Diplomatic Victory. Don't use Asoka; see below for the reason.


Civ: Elizabeth


Great choice, others include Gandhi (Fast Workers & cheap Temples), ...


Opps: Asoka, Cyrus, Hatty, Mansa


Four opponents is great; plenty of space for everyone on a single landmass map with optional seas (You want seas for Elizabeth's early Fishing).

For this gauntlet, I decided that opponents must be peaceful (rather obvious), but should also _not_ possess either Mining or Mysticism as starting Technologies. Civilizations that possess Mining will be a able to built mines very early and research Bronze Working very early. Civilizations that possess Mysticism will be a able to research Religious Technologies very early. It would nice to be first to at least one of Code of Laws (Confucianism), Theology (Christianity) or Philosophy (Taoism). A Leader may also _not_ be Creative, since that allows it to expand too quickly and without any effort.

My recommendations based on the above rules are: Darius I, Hammurabi, Lincoln, Roosevelt, Sitting Bull, and Washington.

Asoka: Also don't pick an opponent with the best unique unit (Fast Worker) and the only one that is effective in times of peace (which we hope lasts the entire game).

Cyrus: I know some people think Cyrus is peaceful, but I don't. In my opinion, he is more prone to attack than most other Leaders.

Hatsheput: I can't really say much against Hatshepsut, except she violates my rule against Creative opponents.

Mansa Musa: Some people say he is required to help the Player research fast enough at Deity level. However, other Leaders may be almost as good and he violates my rule against having Mining as a starting Technology.


Start: Wheat, Plains Hill, 4 FP.


Food, Food, Food, Food, Food is the way to grow fast and win fast. Keeping the # of Flood Plains down to 4 helps keep the Health penalty to a manageable level (4 x 0.4 = 1.6 Unhealthiness).

Are you settling on the Plains Hill for the extra Hammer? In any case, you may want more Hammers than a single Plains Hill can provide.

You need more initial Commerce such as at least one Gems.


Alpha 1940 BC, CS 325 BC, Lib 400 AD. Lost by about 8 turns (200AD).


This is a good tech. rate, unless you are skipping Music. In any case, it could be quicker, but should be OK.


No world wonders.


You should try to build The Sistine Chapel in your most Hammer rich city. For BTS, it is clearly the most important World Wonder to build for a Cultural win.

The Parthenon is the obvious best second choice, since it can help you get up to 20% more GP out in the same amount of time.

The Oracle would be a third choice for its free Technology which could be as good as Civil Service at Deity level. Free Education is probably impossible.
Build it in a High Hammer city that will never run Specialists to reduce its chances of generating a Great Prophet. If a Great Prophet is generated, use it to bulb Theology or Philosophy.

The Pyramids would be fourth. Use it to run early Representation and when there are a few Towns, Universal Suffrage. I've always been attacked after completing The Pyramids for a Cultural Victory at Deity level, so I can't recommend it. Use the Great Engineer generated to build The Sistine Chapel.

Any other World Wonder that generates Great Artists would be good for the base Culture as well as producing much needed GA GP points.


2GS (Philo, Edu). c 8 GA.


You must not be running enough Artists in your Great Artist farms

I prefer 1 GS for building a very early Academy in the Capital.

0-2 GS bulbings sounds OK.


4 religions spread early, and a couple more late on. I was building religious buildings of one sort or another until the very end.


This is ideal. Get Copper, Marble, and Stone. After Alphabet, beeline to Music. Build Cathedrals immediately after completing Music.


I was probably c 30 turns off a victory still.


This is too long. Try to win before turn 250 (AD 1700). Your start didn't have any Commerce tiles like Gems. You need Gems for the early research burst to Alphabet and Music. Two Gems (or Gold and Gems) is better than one Gems. As mentioned before, your not running enough Artists or not running Pacifism with a good State Religion.


BTW. I am running 100% science or culture most of the time now, so that particular problem has been resolved.


I had trouble running either Research more than 80% or later Culture more than 80%. Maybe a Holy City's special religious building can generate the extra Wealth needed to run 100% I could have maximized my last game's trades to get more Wealth.

Sun Tzu Wu

Can you pop 14 by 1600, even if you don´t have the Parthenon?

I must confess that I am building an aquaduct in the GP farm. I´ll try to avoid this in the next game.

I also build temples. Presumably this is OK; otherwise I´d have to found a fifth city to get the 2 cats per religion.

I´m switching to pacifism when I have researched lib. I only adopt a state religion though when all but one of my opponents have gone to free religion. (Though in my last game Cyrus asked me to adopt Buddhism which I duly did, and then forgot to switch back to no religion. No apparent harm came of it).

I also have to confess that I am not using the GP farm as a legendary city. My logic is that at the point that you are going to use the GA bombs, the third legendary city should be the one that has the most culture points. If you develop a third cultural city apart from the GP farm, it always has more cultural points than the GP farm. The only potential flaw in this line of reasoning is that if you have three "proper" legendary cities rather than 2 + a GP farm, you have to share the available cats between three cities rather than two, so each one doesn´t get as many. Hmmm. Maybe that is quite significant?

Pacifism without State Religion doesn't help.
Switching to CS+Pacif+State Religion at Liberalism is late.

The GPFarm is always slower than any cottage city. It also helps towards your research rate early. However, by building a 3rd cottage city you are sacrificing 2 things:
- All the culture in the GPFarm is useless
- You could have run a secondary GPFarm in that city.
Additionally you are forced to go to 6 cities.
I can't say it is always best, but I have a strong preference for a Legendary GPFarm.



I am also planning to do a detailed report of my first game, when I finish it. It's going horribly, but anyway it will be a win. Your perseverance deserves a win. I am thinking about including a 1000BC save (is that against the rules?) since I have the suspicion that there is a problem with your early game, only I am unable to tell what it is from your posts.

I thought my last game was going pretty well. I was the most advanced civ early on, and had a continent to myself (bad for trading...good for expansion). I was able to get the Pyramids, Great Library, and Sistine Chapel built before the AI players started teching ahead and building all the wonders. I popped too many great sicientists, but I settled several (+9 research, +2 culture ain't bad).

My game lasted to 1900ish. One of my opponents had just finished Apollo Program (still had more tachs/parts so a long way from victory). I had 6 Great Artists ready to pop culture in my two secondary cities. I had 40K in my capitol, 20K in another and 15K in the third.

A few things really messed up this game. Only two religions spread to me. Popping more artists instead of scientists would have been ideal. The AI built the UN and forced Emancipation on me so I could only run 2 artists in most of my cities. The AI declared war on me and attacked with bombers, tanks, and marines vs. my musketmen. My fate was sealed at this point.

jesusin first attempt write up: Gandhi was dowed in the BC.

jesusin second attempt write up:
Eliz on a PH, close FP, corn+gold+marble.

Builds: Wor-War-2t of SH-Set-half a Set-Oracle-finish Set
Techs: Agg-Myst-Mason-Medi-Wheel-PH-Wri-Free CoL-Alpha-CS-Liber-PP

With marble in the fatcross I wanted to try Oracle, but with a single gold and not researching Pott, a CS slingshot was impossible.
First mistake: forget to change from FP to oasis at border expansion. It cost me a turn of research.
Second mistake: Wheel should have been before Medi, I dreamt that the marble would get connected without a road, it cost me 4 worker turns.
Third mistake: the worker doesn't travel with the settler, so the second city (on PH, FP closeby) has to work unimproved tile at pop1 while building a worker. As a result, the city is unable to pop a GS before the Oracle GPro.

Oracle t43, Alpha t55, GPro bulbs Theo for a 4th religion, 4 cities by t65, bureaucracy t83, Parthe t88, Academy t96 (big mistake, so late it is better to bulb). NE very late t106, first artists hired t109.

By 1AD I have 3 cathedrals, 11temples, 1miss left, only doing 215 bpt because of severe whipping, only 86GPPpt, very few cottages.

Reached Liberalism t117 (50AD), 1 turn too late. So I had to research PP and trade PP+600g for Natio. End of research t125, save some money, realise Hermit in capital would be overkill, plant it in second city, end up with 7 cathedrals.

4 cities. GPFarm was running 9 artists in Mercant, secondary 6. Multipliers 4 - 4.5 -2.
Bombed 16 GA, won t202, 1420AD.

4 workers is not nearly enough for 4 cities.


Pious_Pete, please, take a look at the 1000BC save and try to discover what's the big difference with your 1000BC saves.

If anyone else looks at it, please, tell me what's MY big mistake.



EDIT:
No Goldan Ages
6 civics changes:
Sla+OR
Bu+Mo
CS+Pa
hindu
FS
Merc

If you are winning in 1420 AD, I don't think that you are making a mistake.

jesusin second attempt write up:
Eliz on a PH, close FP, corn+gold+marble.


I think a second commerce tile such as Gems would make a better start, but that would definitely require using MapFinder. Which map type did you use?

Who where your opponents? It has a big effect on the best strategy to use.


Builds: Wor-War-2t of SH-Set-half a Set-Oracle-finish Set


With the exception of Wor(ker), War(rior), and Oracle, I don't understand what you built here or when or how.


Techs: Agg-Myst-Mason-Medi-Wheel-PH-Wri-Free CoL-Alpha-CS-Liber-PP


Is Agg typo of Agr (Agriculture)? Is PH typo of AH (Animal Husbandry)?

You don't have Music listed as a goal. Did you trade for it? You obviously had it in the BC years, since you had 3 Cathedrals by 1 AD.

Can we assume that you beelined between successive Techs in your list above?

Did you found any religions?


With marble in the fatcross I wanted to try Oracle, but with a single gold and not researching Pott, a CS slingshot was impossible.


Perhaps it was mistake to have only one commerce tile in the starting fat cross? With a second commerce tile, maybe a CS slingshot would be possible.

You didn't research Pottery? Early cottages could make a big difference in research rate to Liberalism. May be useful to have early Granary for early Pop rushing too.


First mistake: forget to change from FP to oasis at border expansion. It cost me a turn of research.


For how long did you forget? 1 turn would be 2-3 beakers lost. A very trivial mistake.


Second mistake: Wheel should have been before Medi, I dreamt that the marble would get connected without a road, it cost me 4 worker turns.


I would do Wheel and Pottery much earlier.


Third mistake: the worker doesn't travel with the settler, so the second city (on PH, FP closeby) has to work unimproved tile at pop1 while building a worker. As a result, the city is unable to pop a GS before the Oracle GPro.


This could be a huge mistake, since an early Academy could make a huge difference in early research rate.

The Oracle was being built in a Hammer city?

And the GS in a future GP Farm?


Oracle t43, Alpha t55, GPro bulbs Theo for a 4th religion, 4 cities by t65, bureaucracy t83, Parthe t88, Academy t96 (big mistake, so late it is better to bulb). NE very late t106, first artists hired t109.


Amazingly early Oracle completion! Seems like it could have been delayed to get something better than Code of Laws, except perhaps your research rate wasn't nearly enough to complete all prerequisites of Civil Service before an AI could complete the Oracle.

"GPro bulbs Theo for a 4th religion" implies that you founded the three before it (including Taoism)? In other words, did you found four of the first five religions?

4 cities by t65 (BC 1400) is great!

First Artists at t109 seems later than it could be, but starting Artists significantly earlier would probably stunt Pop growth to some degree at least.


By 1AD I have 3 cathedrals, 11temples, 1miss left, only doing 215 bpt because of severe whipping, only 86GPPpt, very few cottages.


Three cathedrals and 11 temples by 1AD is truly spectacular!

I'll say it again, the cottage cities should have a lot of cottages well before t115 (1 AD).


Reached Liberalism t117 (50AD), 1 turn too late. So I had to research PP and trade PP+600g for Natio. End of research t125, save some money, realise Hermit in capital would be overkill, plant it in second city, end up with 7 cathedrals.


Too bad about not being first to Liberalism. Did you trade Education too early or did an AI already have it?

I agree that research must stop after Printing Press and Nationalism. I'll remember that in my second game. In my first game, I went for Democracy to use Universal Suffrage; I knew it was wrong to do, my game wasn't going to be a early date finish anyway, so I went for it.


4 cities. GPFarm was running 9 artists in Mercant, secondary 6. Multipliers 4 - 4.5 -2.
Bombed 16 GA, won t202, 1420AD.


I thought that running Mercantilism would cause too much of a reduction of trade (foreign trade brings in about twice as much as domestic trade). Is running Mercantilism really worth the lost of trade in the three Culture cities?

Did you really have 16 GAs or 16 GP total? If so, that means you had 18 GP total. Is that possible by t202 (AD 1420)?

Congratulations on what is probably the earliest winning date so far!

Multiplier 2 would be the big GP Farm. So, were 8 GAs bombed there? And the other 8 split between the Capital and third Culture city?


4 workers is not nearly enough for 4 cities.


Are you suggesting five? Or suggesting Gandhi for his Fast Worker?


If anyone else looks at it, please, tell me what's MY big mistake.


This can't be from the game you described above, since you said "GPro bulbs Theo for a 4th religion", but this save has Christianity founded by an unknown Civ.

For an actual "big" mistake, I'd say Literature should have been researched by now and the National Epic well under way.

Your four cities are extremely well developed for it being only t75! Congratulations.

Sun Tzu Wu

Wow, how many (sharp) comments, thank you.

I think a second commerce tile such as Gems would make a better start, but that would definitely require using MapFinder. Which map type did you use?

Inland Sea, low waters in order to help AIs.

Who where your opponents? It has a big effect on the best strategy to use.

Gandhi, Musa, Lincoln, Pericles


With the exception of Wor(ker), War(rior), and Oracle, I don't understand what you built here or when or how.

I am sorry.
Worker
Warrior
2 turns of production towards StoneHenge in order to grow before going for settlers
Settler
Start settler but interrupt it to go for...
Oracle
Finish the interrupted settler

Is Agg typo of Agr (Agriculture)? Yes. Is PH typo of AH (Animal Husbandry)?
No, PriestHood.


You don't have Music listed as a goal. Did you trade for it? You obviously had it in the BC years, since you had 3 Cathedrals by 1 AD.

Can we assume that you beelined between successive Techs in your list above?

Right. From CS to Liber I had to research Paper and Educ. I traded for everything else, Music, Philo, etc...

Did you found any religions?
Yes, 2. One from Oracle->CoL, another from bulbed GPro->Theo.


Perhaps it was mistake to have only one commerce tile in the starting fat cross? With a second commerce tile, maybe a CS slingshot would be possible.
:) Well, I wouldn't call that a mistake, I played with the map I had.

You didn't research Pottery? Early cottages could make a big difference in research rate to Liberalism. May be useful to have early Granary for early Pop rushing too.
In all the games I don't go for Oracle I beeline Pottery. Here I wanted an early Oracle to be sure to get a religion from CoL.Thus I sacrificed everything for Oracle.


For how long did you forget? 1 turn would be 2-3 beakers lost. A very trivial mistake.
:blush:5 turns. 2 beakers lost a turn. 10 beakers. A whole turn of early research.


I would do Wheel and Pottery much earlier.
Sacrificed for Oracle in this game. I traded for Pott. But I basically agree.


This could be a huge mistake, since an early Academy could make a huge difference in early research rate.
Yes. My Academy wwas so late I shouldn't even have built it.

The Oracle was being built in a Hammer city?
:)Not many cities available. At the time, my second city was pop1, so it had to be built in the capital.

And the GS in a future GP Farm?
It really doesn't matter what the city will be in the future, you generally want to get your first GS as soon as possible and you use the best available city at the time, whatever it is.


Amazingly early Oracle completion! Seems like it could have been delayed to get something better than Code of Laws, except perhaps your research rate wasn't nearly enough to complete all prerequisites of Civil Service before an AI could complete the Oracle.
Yes, I thought about finishing the second settler before Oracle, but I feared that someone could research CoL by hand, leaving me without the religion.


"GPro bulbs Theo for a 4th religion" implies that you founded the three before it (including Taoism)? In other words, did you found four of the first five religions?

I founded the religions coming from CoL and Theo. Gandhi was very close and infected me with 2 of his religions very early.

4 cities by t65 (BC 1400) is great!
I paid some 6 gold in maintenance because of the 4th one. A high price so soon. I had no option, since Pericles had taken one of the two possible locations for my 4th city.

First Artists at t109 seems later than it could be, but starting Artists significantly earlier would probably stunt Pop growth to some degree at least.

Around 500BC you are at your happy cap in every city anyway, so you want to start hiring artists.


Three cathedrals and 11 temples by 1AD is truly spectacular!
My enslaved pleople don't like it so much.:D
All my cities were high food, I whipped Granaries, Libraries, missionaries, temples and even 2 cathedrals after a single turn of growth.

I'll say it again, the cottage cities should have a lot of cottages well before t115 (1 AD).
You are right. After having delayed Pott so much, I should have had more Workers for a cottage explosion.


Too bad about not being first to Liberalism. Did you trade Education too early or did an AI already have it?
I should have refrained my trades a bit longer. I gave away CoL. Later on, I gave CS+Paper in order to get Philo and Music.


I agree that research must stop after Printing Press and Nationalism. I'll remember that in my second game. In my first game, I went for Democracy to use Universal Suffrage; I knew it was wrong to do, my game wasn't going to be a early date finish anyway, so I went for it.
I'd go even further, most of the times researching PP is a bad idea. I had to research PP or Natio in order to get Natio.
I normally get PP a few turns before the end of the game via the single beaker the artists give. Or bu trade.


I thought that running Mercantilism would cause too much of a reduction of trade (foreign trade brings in about twice as much as domestic trade). Is running Mercantilism really worth the lost of trade in the three Culture cities?
With 6-8 cities working as GPFarms, yes, without a doubt. In my game, with only 2 GPFarms, it was worth it. The commerce from trade routes went from 8 to 2, -6, but I got 4 culture from the artist. So I only lost 2 raw culture in the city that lost the most. The GPP are far more valuable than a few culture points.
Did you really have 16 GAs or 16 GP total? If so, that means you had 18 GP total. Is that possible by t202 (AD 1420)?
18GP total. I have had 22GP total by 1350AD in other games. Aiming for 15 is ok. Since my cottages where so underdevelopped, I had to compensate.

Congratulations on what is probably the earliest winning date so far!
:eek: Really? If I had thought it was a competitive date I wouldn't have revealed it. I expect the winner of the Gauntlet to get a 1300AD date, more or less.


Multiplier 2 would be the big GP Farm. So, were 8 GAs bombed there? And the other 8 split between the Capital and third Culture city?
I believe it was 1 in the capital, 5 in the second city, 10 in the GPFarm. The last 2 (capital+second cottage city) only saved 1 turn each, and they cost a severe starvation of the capital.

Are you suggesting five? Or suggesting Gandhi for his Fast Worker?
Most would players would say 6 Workers for 4 cities. I think I would have done with 5.

This can't be from the game you described above, since you said "GPro bulbs Theo for a 4th religion", but this save has Christianity founded by an unknown Civ.
It's the same game. It is a BTS game and I checked the option "choose religion" so any religion can be founded from any of the 7 techs.


For an actual "big" mistake, I'd say Literature should have been researched by now and the National Epic well under way.
I like to get Liberalism in the BC and go 100% culture immediately, so I don't detour to Music. However, all I know comes from Vanilla. In BTS the Music detour gives a lot: earlier NE, free GA, earlier Cathedrals, doublepowered Sistine's, good trade value... So I think I should try.

When do you recommend to go for Music, before or after CS?

Your four cities are extremely well developed for it being only t75! Congratulations.

Thank you for your questions.

Sun Tzu Wu

Space race loss to Asoka 1710

Version: Vanilla
Civ: Elizabeth
Opps: Asoka, Cyrus, Hatty, Mansa
Map: Inland Sea
Start: Wheat, Plains Hill, Gems + misc grasslands and forests
Alpha 1640 BC, CS 400 BC, Lib 325 AD. Won the race!
No world wonders.
3GS (Philo, Edu,Edu). 11 GA. (3 from secondary GP farm)

Confucionism spread early, and founded Philo for Toaism. Third religion spread c1200 (which I did lead to another round of cats).

Getting philo first proved useful since, as well as the religion, I also traded it for Music, so I got my cats started much earlier than usual, which was a useful bonus.

The GP farm was great, running 7 artists, and the secondary GP farm ran 6 artists, so this lead to far more artists than my usual tally.

Indeed, at the end of the game, I was probably only 16 turns or so off victory.

The only flaw with the GP farm in this game was that I tried to run state-religion+pacifism as soon as I got philo; but my relations with Mansa plumetted fast and I switched back to non-state religion a.s.a.p. Somewhat burnt by this experience, I waited too long to adopt a state-religion again.

All in all, this was a big improvement; but still, no banana.

Congrats Pete on winning the Liberalism race. It sounds like you are making progress.

As for me, I think that I might eventually get it. I am not going for time here, just for the actual non-cheese Quechua rush victory. If using PA is considered cheese by some, too bad. It's actually much harder than it sounds.

I was playing the other Major, the Immortal Space and in trying to butter up Wang Kon for a PA, nearly wiped myself out. I had a huge SoD on my doorstep. For some reason, they did not attack all at once. Thankfully they didn't. The next turn I got the PA and made peace. Something like 2-3 turns later, we got a cultural victory.


Now, as for this Gauntlet I tried against Darius, Sitting Bull, Washington and Gandhi. With Pericles, I managed the Pyramids, Great Lighthouse, SoZ, Parthenon, Sistine Chapel and I think one other, maybe the Oracle. Sitting Bull had to reinforce several cities, because of my culture. I started grooming Darius for the PA when he cities were looking well on pace. But then Washington seemed to be closer. I when with an easy PA with Darius, no wars involved, just a long DP. Athens is already legendary, and I have saved about 4 GAs. I gift two to Darius and I have no idea where they went. He planted them in the Capital which was already only 37 turns away! I settled a few in the next best city, but it was going to take over 200-300 years. Funny thing was that before the PA, he's building cathedrals to push back SB's culture, but then he's building huge military in the core cities and spaceship parts in the crap cities. I am holding out for culture, but then I thought diplo might be better. It was difficult to manipulate things and then I noticed that they are very, very few Deity Time victories. I had a new goal and was happy clicking return and collecting Future Techs. But then Washington launches his spaceship! So that same turn we declare war, but we only have 10 turns to conquer Washington (the city, not the guy). I am totally relying on Darius' army and navy, because I got nothing. We also launch our ship, and it has the extra thruster or something and we either beat them by one turn or tied and ended up still winning.

So, the moral of my stories seems to try for space ship and fall in to a cultural victory, not vice versa. Back to the drawing board.

Why do you wait until Liberalism to run Pacifism? Isn't pacifism crucial to maximising great artists?

Pacifism + a state religion, yes. The problem is the state religion. It's an open invitation to war.

Prior to this gauntlet, I always waited until all (but one) of my opponents adopted free religion. But this is of course too timid for this gauntlet.

Following a comment by someone in a post in this forum, I decided to switch earlier (at Liberalism) and for the most part this seemed to be OK (only one DOW); but as I am now learning, this is still too timid.

In my last game, I tried switching straight away at philo; but as this brought on the wrath of Mansa, I chickened out. I'm not quite sure when the appropriate time to adopt a state-religion is.

You must take a religion earlier. You need the benefit or OR/Pacifism asap. Mostly pacifism.


But how to you steer clear of DOWs?

Four opponents is great; plenty of space for everyone on a single landmass map with optional seas (You want seas for Elizabeth's early Fishing).

So what map would you recommend? I've been playing Inland Sea to fill in a slot in my EQM list. This does have some water; but I can't say that the seafood resources have really played a significant part in any of my games.

As time is progressing, and I clearly need as much going for me as possible, I guess I ought to try switching to a more optimal map. Perhaps I should switch to Pangea with high seas?

But how to you steer clear of DOWs?

Choose opponents who don't care much about religious difference, like Asoka, Cyrus, and Roosevelt. The benefits of Organized Religion and Pacifism are worth the risk.

Four opponents is great; plenty of space for everyone on a single landmass map with optional seas (You want seas for Elizabeth's early Fishing).



So what map would you recommend? I've been playing Inland Sea to fill in a slot in my EQM list. This does have some water; but I can't say that the seafood resources have really played a significant part in any of my games.


By "You want seas for Elizabeth's early Fishing", all I mean is a map type without seas would be wasting one of Elizabeth's starting Technologies (Fishing). However, that doesn't mean you want to avoid all non-sea Maps when playing Elizabeth. You will be forced to make compromises in every game you play; it's part of what makes Civ 4 generally more interesting to play versus previous versions (Civ 1-3).

What map to play depends on what strategy you plan to use. If you look at the nine GM-29 games that entered the Cultural Small Normal table (on the 6/25 update), you will see very different strategies. You will see that the 4-5 top games used Inland Sea Maps.

jesusin said he likes to use Low Inland Seas to help the IAs. Of course he means to increase commerce, since trade routes become available earlier via the Sea and all the Rivers that flow into it. It forms a wheel shaped trade network. To get the Sea trade routes though, Sailing might be needed for either Civilization.

I would also recommend Low Inland Seas. I would agree that Inland Sea is the easiest Map to win a Cultural Victory on. That doesn't necessarily mean its the best for this gauntlet though. However, I do think that Inland Sea is both a good map for those trying to win (earliest date) the gauntlet and those who simply want to win a game (regardless of the end date).


As time is progressing, and I clearly need as much going for me as possible, I guess I ought to try switching to a more optimal map. Perhaps I should switch to Pangea with high seas?


I would stick with Inland Sea; it is a sound Map for a Cultural Win.

Try to get a start with at least two food resources and two commerce resources and maybe a few floodplains. It's important to have the advantage of a good start and manage this advantage through to victory!

If your goal is to simply win a game with GM-29 parameters, then your strategy for winning probably will be slightly different from those trying to get the best date. To get the best date, one sometimes must take risks. However, to just win a game, one should try to minimize the risks to the extent that no AI will finish before you.

I would suggest doing what jesusin does in his cultural games, except add something to reduce the risk without making your expected win later than an AI's actual win.

You mentioned not taking a State Religion for fear of being attacked. If you make the fourth city be a high hammer (20H) city that can spam Missionaries, you can have everyone adopt your Sate Religion. To make this more solid, try to found all seven Religions, so all AIs will have only your State Religion or No State Religion. To create synergy for this strategy, do not pick any opponent with Mysticism as a starting Technology (This includes both Gandhi and Asoka) or any other Leader that researches Religious Technologies more than average (This may include Hatshepsut).

Also, take a clue from jesusin's recent game that he shared. Settle cities in high food areas, grow them fast and whip them hard. Don't shy away from stacking Unhappiness due to whipping; just don't exceed the Happiness limit. Food will be the source of your Population and Hammers (in the early game at least). I personally love seeing growth that exceeds 10F for the whipping potential. Don't forget rule #1, first thing to be whipped is a Granary! Without a Granary, your whipping will be only 50% as efficient as with.

Finally, it is OK to try to win without building World Wonders, but your base Culture will suffer from lack of World Wonder Culture. If you build just one WW, #1 on the list should be The Sistine Chapel. (Unfortunately, this will mean an early beeline to Music, but this may be worthwhile for BTS but only with a State Religion!) Other World Wonders with Artist GPPs are good choices, but rarely as good as The Sistine Chapel.

An alternative to WW for base Culture is early Monasteries which start with 2 Cpt and go up to 4 Cpt after a 1000 years. Monuments are just as good (half the Culture at half the Price), but only one per city can be built, whereas one Monastery per Religion in a City can be built. You may want to built Libraries even earlier due to there Research boost. Build all Culture generating buildings, especially the half price Universities (which effectively cost just a little more than a Library).

Sun Tzu Wu

But how to you steer clear of DOWs?

Choose Leaders whose Favourite Civic matches the Civics you plan to use for the most the game. It's a great way to get an easy diplomatic boost.

The key is high diplomacy. Try looking at the UN Diplomatic game guides for all the other ways of improving diplomacy.

In my GM-29 game, I came to a point where I had high diplomacy with two AIs, and low (1 and 3) with the other two. One of these (Diplomacy=1) was a vassal of one of the ones with high diplomacy, so no problem. To get the other Civ's diplomacy higher at the expense of the others, I simply signed a Defensive Pact with him. As a rule, I avoid DP in Cultural games, but since the major powers seemed well balanced, I thought the risk of War between them was low and went for it.

Sun Tzu Wu

Space race loss to Asoka 1710


Possibly trading too early? You want to help the AIs to research fast so you can trade with them to keep up as much as possible, but later in the game try to trade with the slower Civs, so as not to boost the faster Civs into a win.


Version: Vanilla


Sorry, I thought you were playing BTS like nearly everyone else in GM-29. The Sistine Chapel isn't quite so important in Vanilla (or Warlords), but in Vanilla (or Warlords) it is available with Theology (instead of with Music in BTS), so it's on the beeline to Liberalism. If you build an early Oracle, you can use the Great Prophet it will generate to bulb Theology and get a head start on The Sistine Chapel.


Opps: Asoka, Cyrus, Hatty, Mansa


Here is list of what I consider the most peaceful BTS Leaders

Asoka, Augustus, Darius I, Elizabeth, Frederick, Gandhi, Hammurabi, Hatshepsut, Lincoln, Mansa Musa, Roosevelt, Sitting Bull, Victoria, Wang Kon, Washington.

You can filter out the BTS and Warlords Leader and will be left Peaceful Leaders for Vanilla, but I could be wrong about this:

Asoka, Elizabeth, Frederick, Gandhi, Hatshepsut, Mansa Musa, Roosevelt, Victoria, Wang Kon, Washington.


Start: Wheat, Plains Hill, Gems + misc grasslands and forests


Try to get 2nd food or floodplains and 2nd commerce tile in fat cross of capital. Corn for Food and Gems for Commerce is best for first tile of each type. The second Food and Commerce tile could be a different type or the same and then traded.

The grasslands are great for cottages.

The forests are great for chopping, but not necessarily for Settlers and Workers. It may be better to pre-chop and then chop when a resource multiplier will up to double the hammers produced for a building or wonder.


Alpha 1640 BC, CS 400 BC, Lib 325 AD. Won the race!


Alphabet can be researched by turn 50 (BC 2000) or even earlier. adding a 2nd Commerce tile (Gems, Gold, Silver, or Fur) can greatly increase early research.

Winning the Liberalism race makes winning a Cultural game much easier. Congratulations!


No world wonders.


I'm impressed. It takes extra skill to win a Cultural Victory without WWs. At least you won't be wasting Hammers on them. I still think you should build some key World Wonders though.


3GS (Philo, Edu,Edu). 11 GA. (3 from secondary GP farm)


I would use only one GS on Education and manually research the rest. Half the second GS for Eduction is wasted in terms of Beakers actually consumed. In stead of a third GS, I would have generated an extra GA.

You should be able to have more than 14 total Great People by AD 1710. This is probably due to not running Pacifism often enough or perhaps not running enough Artists in the two GP Farms. WWs with Artist GPP could also help, if they were built. However, the real problem was probably not enough food to support enough Artists most of the time.

In my GM-29 game, I had 1GS and 12GA by AD 1710, so you did better than I did. However, jesusin in his GM-29 AD 1420 win had a total of 18 GPs. So, we can both improve in this regard.


Confucionism spread early, and founded Philo for Toaism. Third religion spread c1200 (which I did lead to another round of cats).


It would be better to have more earlier Religions. Sometimes an early road to a neighbor can help the spread of Religion naturally, but this shouldn't be an issue for Inland Sea with its natural Sea trade routes.

The third Religion at AD 12xx was a bit late, but building the corresponding Cathedrals was the right thing to do. It is clear that they were finished well before the expected Cultural Victory turn, so building Culture would not have been a better option.


Getting philo first proved useful since, as well as the religion, I also traded it for Music, so I got my cats started much earlier than usual, which was a useful bonus.


Brilliant move!

I really think it is key to get those Culture multipliers built as early as possible.

Note that the rule about no multipliers in the GP Farm is correct, not just because it they are hard to build there, but also they are best built in the two cities with the highest base Culture, since that way they maximize total Culture. Be careful not to put too many Culture multipliers in the city with the highest base Culture such than it becomes Legendary before there are enough GAs to win; if that is the case, too many of your Culture multipliers were put into this city. If the City with the second highest base Culture becomes Legendary first, you clearly put too many Culture multipliers in it. Ideally, the city with the highest base Culture will become Legendary on the turn you win _without_ GAs bombing it. The majority of the GAs will go into the GP Farm and a smaller # of GAs with go into the second Commerce City.


The GP farm was great, running 7 artists, and the secondary GP farm ran 6 artists, so this lead to far more artists than my usual tally.


This is really good, especially 6 Artists in the secondary GP Farm. However, your GP Farm should be running a few more than 7 Artists. Maybe more food in the fat cross is needed. If you had an extra irrigated Corn (6F), you could support 2 more Artists with 3 more in Population (one working the Corn and 2 working as Artists). That would make 9 Artists in the GP Farm. If you weren't running Mercantilism, running it would allow a free Artist in every city.


The only flaw with the GP farm in this game was that I tried to run state-religion+pacifism as soon as I got philo; but my relations with Mansa plumetted fast and I switched back to non-state religion a.s.a.p. Somewhat burnt by this experience, I waited too long to adopt a state-religion again.


Not running Pacifism with a State Religion is ultimately what cost you this game. You are correct to be cautious about converting to a Religion when many of your opponents have conflicting State Religions. However, you can safely convert to a State Religion, even when there are many conflicting Religions. Just be sure to get and keep your diplomacy to at least +3 (preferable above +7) with everyone. (Check the UN Diplomacy guides for all the details on how to do this).

I really hope you win a GM-29 game. You are really progressing and I'm sure you will eventually win. I'm responding to your posts in the hope that I can can help in some small way. If we help each other, we will all become better players as a result, much more so than if we all played in isolation.

Sun Tzu Wu

But how to you steer clear of DOWs?

Well you can't avoid them 100%, especially in the BC years. But basically you choose from this list of opponents: Mansa, Liz, Roos, Cyrus, Hatty, Ghandi, Asoka, Washington. Then you make sure that your alpha+CoL trading makes everyone pleased - none of these AI's will DOW you if they are pleased. And if you have a choice, you take a neighbor's religion, since you want to avoid a neighbor dropping to cautious if at all possible once you become a land target.

I played several games with Ghandi, Hatty, Lincoln, and Mansa Musa and had no DOW in any of them.

You mentioned not taking a State Religion for fear of being attacked. If you make the fourth city be a high hammer (20H) city that can spam Missionaries, you can have everyone adopt your Sate Religion. To make this more solid, try to found all seven Religions, so all AIs will have only your State Religion or No State Religion. To create synergy for this strategy, do not pick any opponent with Mysticism as a starting Technology (This includes both Gandhi and Asoka) or any other Leader that researches Religious Technologies more than average (This may include Hatshepsut).


How many leaders are there that do not start with Mysticism on Diety level? All the AIs start with several bonus techs. Do you have a list of AI leaders that do not have Mysticism as their starting tech at Diety level?

So far in my attempts, I have steared clear of the religious techs. I am able to trade for them when I get Alphabet. I generally get 4-5 religions spread to me by the AI players anyway. The only thing I am missing out on is the gold from the religious shrines (but then that would require a Great Prophet which would be a wasted Great Person...no?).

Mysticism does not seem to be a bonus tech for anyone. If you play Saladin against opponents that don't have it as a standard tech, you will always found bud or hindu, so no one can have it from the start.

Good to know. I just assume that they all have it, and plan to not found religions. I have been bee lining for Alphabet (for trading) and Music (for the Sistine Chapel). Maybe I will give religion spam a try.

In my last game, all of the AI adopted Judism except one. I went along with the majority and it worked out well. It helped that Ghandi was the lone follower of Hinduism. I don't think he will declare war unless you really work hard to piss him off.

Comments in green are my original comments/questions.

Comments in blue are my current comments/questions.



Wow, how many (sharp) comments, thank you.

My hope is we learn from each other this way.

Who where your opponents? It has a big effect on the best strategy to use.

Gandhi, Musa, Lincoln, Pericles

There are numerous ways that opponent choices are synergistic with strategy. Let us discuss just one I've previously mentioned in this thread ...

The Favourite Civic of these opponents don't have much use in boosting diplomacy with them. There respective Favourite Civics are:

(Gandhi) Universal Suffrage, (Mansa Musa) Free Market, (Lincoln) Emancipation, (Pericles) Representation

There isn't much chance that Emancipation or Free Market will be much use in a Cultural Victory attempt. Both Universal Suffrage and Representation would be unlikely too, unless The Pyramids is built, but US and Rep can't be run at the same time. The Favourite Civic of each opponent must each be in a unique category to have any hope of pleasing all opponents by running their Favourite Civic.

The entire list of BTS Leaders including their Favourite Civic can be found here:

http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/info/civilizations/

Right. From CS to Liber I had to research Paper and Educ. I traded for everything else, Music, Philo, etc...

Seems like you did a beeline to Liberalism with a early diversion to Alphabet and traded fro everything else. Very impressive and very efficient!

Did you found any religions?

Yes, 2. One from Oracle->CoL, another from bulbed GPro->Theo.

Gandhi may not have been a good choice of opponent, if you wanted to found Religions, since his starting Mysticism gave him too much of a head start.

Perhaps it was mistake to have only one commerce tile in the starting fat cross? With a second commerce tile, maybe a CS slingshot would be possible.

Well, I wouldn't call that a mistake, I played with the map I had.

You could regenerate or use Mapfinder to find a better starting position.

The Oracle was being built in a Hammer city?

Not many cities available. At the time, my second city was pop1, so it had to be built in the capital.

Well, hopefully your capital had a few hammers. Did you whip The Oracle? I'm still amazed by your t41 completion of it.

Three cathedrals and 11 temples by 1AD is truly spectacular!

My enslaved pleople don't like it so much.
All my cities were high food, I whipped Granaries, Libraries, missionaries, temples and even 2 cathedrals after a single turn of growth.

Whipping two Cathedrals after a single turn of "growth"? Did you mean of "building"? In any case, whipping Cathedrals is truly amazing! The Cathedral whipping must have cost a lot of Population. Do you remember how much?

Was your growth so high in some cities that they grew 1 Population per turn?

Too bad about not being first to Liberalism. Did you trade Education too early or did an AI already have it?

I should have refrained my trades a bit longer. I gave away CoL. Later on, I gave CS+Paper in order to get Philo and Music.

Perhaps just waiting a few turns before trading for Philosophy and Music may have been the advantage you needed to be first to Liberalism. However, you made the right move; you were just unlucky; it's just too hard to know how long to delay trades.

Congratulations on what is probably the earliest winning date so far!

Really? If I had thought it was a competitive date I wouldn't have revealed it. I expect the winner of the Gauntlet to get a 1300AD date, more or less.

Are you sure that AD 1300 is possible? That's 12 turns shorter than your AD 1420 win. Maybe, it is possible with a better Capital site.

Multiplier 2 would be the big GP Farm. So, were 8 GAs bombed there? And the other 8 split between the Capital and third Culture city?

I believe it was 1 in the capital, 5 in the second city, 10 in the GPFarm. The last 2 (capital+second cottage city) only saved 1 turn each, and they cost a severe starvation of the capital.

Excellent! Near perfect calculation of the Culture multipliers to go into the city of the highest base Culture resulting in almost no GA bombs required there.

In my GM-29 game, I missed Legendary in one city by just 10 Culture and I'm positive I could have avoided by working Towns instead of higher food tiles near the end with extreme starvation. I didn't plan the last few turns nearly as well as I could.

This can't be from the game you described above, since you said "GPro bulbs Theo for a 4th religion", but this save has Christianity founded by an unknown Civ.

It's the same game. It is a BTS game and I checked the option "choose religion" so any religion can be founded from any of the 7 techs.

Is there any advantage to choosing a Religion? Yes, it is obvious. You can pick the Religion based on which strategic resource you have for building the corresponding Cathedral twice as fast.

When do you recommend to go for Music, before or after CS?

Definitely after.

There should be enough time to get to Civil Service (especially with a slingshot via The Oracle) and still beat the AI to Music. The BTS AIs don't seem too intersted in researching Aesthetics. I would do something like:

Alphabet -> Aesthetics -> Civil Service -> Music -> Liberalism

With extremely aggressive research, Education :lol: slingshot, and numerous bulbs, it may be possible to do something like this:

Alphabet -> Aesthetics -> Civil Service -> Liberalism -> Music

I may have done this before in Warlords, but definitely not at Deity level (perhaps Monarch - Immortal level). I'm joking about an Education slingshot at Deity level, but with the proper preparation, even that might be possible after all.

Thank you for your questions.

You are welcome.



Sun Tzu Wu

How many leaders are there that do not start with Mysticism on Diety level? All the AIs start with several bonus techs. Do you have a list of AI leaders that do not have Mysticism as their starting tech at Diety level?

So far in my attempts, I have steared clear of the religious techs. I am able to trade for them when I get Alphabet. I generally get 4-5 religions spread to me by the AI players anyway. The only thing I am missing out on is the gold from the religious shrines (but then that would require a Great Prophet which would be a wasted Great Person...no?).

I'm suggesting Missionary spamming to other Civs as an expensive way to be pleased with them and have easy diplomacy that may result in a late win.

I keep thinking that the AIs start with the same starting Technologies that they would start with if a Human was playing them as defined here:

http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/info/civilizations/

Now, I'm not so sure. Do the AIs at Deity level start with more than the Technologies listed in the URI above? I now recall that a post saying they start with the entire first row of Technologies, but I don't know whether that is really true.

Can someone please definitively state which Technologies the AIs start with at Deity level?

Thanks,

Sun Tzu Wu

Mysticism does not seem to be a bonus tech for anyone. If you play Saladin against opponents that don't have it as a standard tech, you will always found bud or hindu, so no one can have it from the start.

How does one find out what Technologies a Deity level AI starts with?

I thought the following URI provided that information:

http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/info/civilizations/

Is this list incorrect for Diety level AIs?

Thanks,

Sun Tzu Wu

I may have assumed wrong. My assumption is that the AI players have bonus techs at Diety level. I do not know for certain that this is true.

My normal tech path is generally mining, agriculture, and animal husbandry (in no particular order) to link up resources (the leader often starts with at least one).

After resource techs I get (masonry if there are stone or marble present) pottery, writing, and alphabet. This enables cottage spam, libraries, open borders, and tech trading.

After bee lining alphabet I will research asthetics, literature, mathematics, and music. I will often put a couple of turns into mathepatics while tech trading so I don't waste research on polytheism (a prereq for literature). The AI players will generally trade me mysticism, meditation, polytheism, priesthood, bronze working, iron working, hunting and archery for a combination of writing and alphabet. If I am lucky I can also get monotheism and one or two additional techs if my alphabet bee line is quick enough.

I generally do not get to music first, but with luck I can build the Sistine Chapel even without winning the race. In my last game, I had stone in my BFC. I was able to have my second city complete the Pyramids. This allowed me to run Representation and also popped a great engineer just in time to rush the Sistine Chapel.

Is there a better (or at least different) tech strategy that other people have had success with?

I may have assumed wrong. My assumption is that the AI players have bonus techs at Diety level. I do not know for certain that this is true.

They have archery for sure. I do not know for certain about the rest either.

My normal tech path is generally mining, agriculture, and animal husbandry (in no particular order) to link up resources (the leader often starts with at least one).

After resource techs I get (masonry if there are stone or marble present) pottery, writing, and alphabet. This enables cottage spam, libraries, open borders, and tech trading.

After bee lining alphabet I will research asthetics, literature, mathematics, and music. I will often put a couple of turns into mathepatics while tech trading so I don't waste research on polytheism (a prereq for literature). The AI players will generally trade me mysticism, meditation, polytheism, priesthood, bronze working, iron working, hunting and archery for a combination of writing and alphabet. If I am lucky I can also get monotheism and one or two additional techs if my alphabet bee line is quick enough.

I generally do not get to music first, but with luck I can build the Sistine Chapel even without winning the race. In my last game, I had stone in my BFC. I was able to have my second city complete the Pyramids. This allowed me to run Representation and also popped a great engineer just in time to rush the Sistine Chapel.

Is there a better (or at least different) tech strategy that other people have had success with?

Try skipping AH unless you do not have an ag resource in your capital. You will get to alpha 10-15 turns sooner and you can trade for it then.

Also don't trade for hunting unless you have camp resources and never trade for archery - these techs are not needed but still count against your WFYABTA limit which will bite you later.

Comments in green are my original comments/questions.

Comments in blue are my current comments/questions.



Sun Tzu Wu

I whipped 4 people into each cathedral whipped. The cities regrew 1 pop every 2 turns, mostly.

I choose my oponents just thinking about peaceful leaders that research very fast.

Gandhi is great because he founds religions and spreads them. I don't care if I found religions or not, I just want to have access to them.

I sincerelly believe that 1200AD victory is possible, but I didn't want to state so till I can prove it with a game.

I may have assumed wrong. My assumption is that the AI players have bonus techs at Diety level. I do not know for certain that this is true.


The AI starts with The Wheel, Hunting, Agriculture, Archery, and their usual starting techs. This makes an AI which starts with Mysticism and Mining (such as India) a bit stronger than one with The Wheel and Hunting.

But how to you steer clear of DOWs?

They must be always pleased. Gift them techs. Trade resources even if it is not beneficial.

Try skipping AH unless you do not have an ag resource in your capital. You will get to alpha 10-15 turns sooner and you can trade for it then.

Also don't trade for hunting unless you have camp resources and never trade for archery - these techs are not needed but still count against your WFYABTA limit which will bite you later.

I never have trouble with being too advanced. I can win the Alphabet race. Sometines the Music race. Never the Liberalism race (on Diety that is). By the time I stop researching, all four of the AI players are giving me techs for be a poor backward civilization.

I generally research Animal Husbandry because I have been playing Great Plains maps. Having four cows in the starting cross makes it a must. I can crank out settlers in 3-4 turns with four cows properly pasturized. I like Great Plains for the abundant food and extra land area. I am generally able to build six cities with enough land in a corner for a seventh city (in case one of them gets culture turned in the late game before the cathedrials are finished in the big three).

I am giong to try Inland Sea. I see that a lot of people have had good experiences with this map. I'm sure that it is easier to get the two commerce cities up and running when the majority of the tiles are not plains.

Now I truely know frustration.

My game was running a little long (1800s), but the AI only had two Legendary cities so far and no one had built the Apollo Program yet. I had five GA (I know a little light) ready to culture bomb as my first city approached 50K. I had two GA in another city which was at 43K and three in my capitol which was at 41K.

The proper turn came and I culture bombed one city, clicked on my capitol, merged the three GA into a stack of three, and...

I CLICKED THE WRONG DARN BUTTON!!!

I now had three GA settled in my capitol instead of 12K more culture!

My capitol was producing 700+ per turn now, so only a few turns...but...Ghandi finished a third Legendary city about six turns later.

Lesson learned...don't stack great people. If I had hit the wrong button one time, I would still have had two left to culture bomb to 49K+ and been one turn away.

Back to the drawing board.

jesusin (or anyone else playing BTS) - if you want a laugh, try this on vanilla. You can only play ~10% of your starts since the AI sends their settlers farther then on quick speed (another advantage). I had one game with 2 sites picked out within 7 tiles of the capital. Wor-war-set, and with 6 turns left on the settler, Asoka and Roos had a city on those spots. Jeez.

jesusin (or anyone else playing BTS) - if you want a laugh, try this on vanilla. You can only play ~10% of your starts since the AI sends their settlers farther then on quick speed (another advantage). I had one game with 2 sites picked out within 7 tiles of the capital. Wor-war-set, and with 6 turns left on the settler, Asoka and Roos had a city on those spots. Jeez.

Well, 1265AD on Vanilla is possible. Even I have had 1295AD in the past.

By the way, that's were I caught my fobia against Wonders (no time for anything but settlers) and my preference for low sea levels ;)

Well, 1265AD on Vanilla is possible. Even I have had 1295AD in the past.

By the way, that's were I caught my fobia against Wonders (no time for anything but settlers) and my preference for low sea levels ;)

On small normal speed? I thought the only HOF entry was your 1690ish Ice Age map?

On small normal speed? I thought the only HOF entry was your 1690ish Ice Age map?

Oooops, normal speed.
Maybe Ice Age is not the best available map.:mischief:

The AI starts with The Wheel, Hunting, Agriculture, Archery, and their usual starting techs. This makes an AI which starts with Mysticism and Mining (such as India) a bit stronger than one with The Wheel and Hunting.

Is there a web link pointing to a table of AI starting Technologies based on Player level (Settler - Deity)?

Sun Tzu Wu

Another loss. Reached the 1600s and Mansa Musa got a cultural victory.

Well, 1265AD on Vanilla is possible. Even I have had 1295AD in the past.

By the way, that's were I caught my fobia against Wonders (no time for anything but settlers) and my preference for low sea levels ;)

Do you think Vanila might be easier (less tech to research to get to Liberalism etc.)?

I think vanilla is harder, mainly because you can't count on getting prime city sites, you can't count on founding any religions (unless you are saladin/indian) you can't build parthenon or sistine, and sistine is only good for +2:culture:/artist anyway.

@Sun Tzu Wu:

I don't know of an online resourse that has this listed; I took it directly from the XML.

The AI always gets its civs starting techs (so Rome always has Fishing and Mining, for example). They get bonus techs as per the difficulty level.

Deity - The Wheel, Agriculture, Hunting, Archery
Immortal - Agriculture, Hunting, Archery
Emporer - Hunting, Archery
Monarch - Archery (even if no Hunting)

If the AI already starts with one of the bonus techs, I don't know if they get another one.

On low difficulty levels, the human gets bonus techs:
Warlord - The Wheel
Chieftan - The Wheel, Agriculture
Settler - The Wheel, Agriculture, Mining


@Mesix

I think BTS is deifintely easier.
Vanilla Deity bonuses are moderately but significantly bigger, most notably the extra Worker, Archer and Scout, the 95% discount on unit upgrades (50% in BTS), and the 40% discount on population growth (20% in BTS).

IIRC, the Vanilla AI will tech faster at the expense of military, and the space race is quicker than in BTS, so the AI will launch earlier.

Do you think Vanila might be easier (less tech to research to get to Liberalism etc.)?

I am playing BTS becasuse I have to learn it.
But, yes, I think better results can be got with Vanilla.

The AI always gets its civs starting techs (so Rome always has Fishing and Mining, for example). They get bonus techs as per the difficulty level.

Deity - The Wheel, Agriculture, Hunting, Archery
Immortal - Agriculture, Hunting, Archery
Emporer - Hunting, Archery
Monarch - Archery (even if no Hunting)

If the AI already starts with one of the bonus techs, I don't know if they get another one.

On low difficulty levels, the human gets bonus techs:
Warlord - The Wheel
Chieftan - The Wheel, Agriculture
Settler - The Wheel, Agriculture, Mining


Obviously, no bonus Technologies for Prince and Noble level AIs.

Thanks for the complete list of AI starting Technologies.


I think BTS is deifintely easier.
Vanilla Deity bonuses are moderately but significantly bigger, most notably the extra Worker, Archer and Scout, the 95% discount on unit upgrades (50% in BTS), and the 40% discount on population growth (20% in BTS).


Was more XML magic used to determine the above?

These differences are more than what one would expect, but I think the above changes in BTS were meant to help balance against BTS' better AI.


IIRC, the Vanilla AI will tech faster at the expense of military, and the space race is quicker than in BTS, so the AI will launch earlier.


Warlords probably has most of the same disadvantages that Vanilla has when compared to BTS. In a Cultural game where the player ensures that no AI will use the military option against them, there are no significant differences between Vanilla and Warlords.

In Vanilla or Warlords, the first AI to launch in a Cultural game would do so around Turn 210 (AD 1500). In BTS, the first AI seems to launch around Turn 250 (AD 1700), based on what people on this thread have been reporting. If true, that means the Space Colony threat is delayed by about 40 Turns. However, with BTS, one must contend with an AI trying a Religious Leader Diplomatic Victory, even before Turn 100. Also, an AI Cultural Victory is a real threat near the end, assuming you haven't already gotten yours by Turn 250. Also, somewhere around Turn 210-250, an AI will build the UN and your pleased diplomacy with everyone may not be enough to avoid a UN Diplomatic Victory. If you picked peaceful AIs and maintained pleased diplomacy, any AI military option is very unlikely to be used against you.

For the truly gifted (like jesusin and WastinTime), who regularly win before Turn 210 (AD 1500), the only AI Victory that is a threat is the Religious Leader Diplomatic Victory (even this threat is probably not much more than an minor annoyance for them).

Sun Tzu Wu

How exactly do you both win the race to liberalism and also build the Sistine chapel? I can't seem to get either.

How exactly do you both win the race to liberalism and also build the Sistine chapel? I can't seem to get either.


1) Beeline to Alphabet; Build Library; Run 2 Scientists -> Great Scientist -> Academy in Capital (may overlay with steps 2-3 below).

2) Trade everything through Alphabet to get all important early Technologies.

3) Research Aesthetics and do some more trading, but not all at once like step #2.

4) Research Literature -> Drama -> Music.

5) Start building The Sistine Chapel (TSC) in city with largest Hammer value (or potentially largest as the Population grows and Tiles improve).

6) Delay trading Literature and Drama as much as possible while building The Sistine Chapel, but never trade Music until it (TSC) is built.

7) Research Civil Service -> Paper -> Education (bulb 1 GS) -> Liberalism.

8) Don't trade Education until Liberalism is completed.

While going through steps 1-8, avoid getting Technologies that aren't absolutely required to get to Liberalism or improve your Tiles and make trades that relieve the AI of all Gold he has to keep Research at 100% as much as possible. Don't forget to do trades of partially completed Technologies when an AI offers them to shave a few turns off the path to Liberalism.

If Marble is available while The Sistine Chapel is being built, the chances of completion improve dramatically.

After winning the race to The Sistine Chapel and Liberalism:

Hopefully you are first to Liberalism and pick Nationalism as your free Technology and can start building the Hermitage. All that is left is to research Printing Press which doesn't have to be full speed (in fact you can set Research to 0% and let your Artists do all the research).

To take advantage of the BTS extra 5 Culture per State Religion Building feature of The Sistine Chapel, you must have a State Religion which matches that of the Temples, Monasteries and Cathedrals in your three Cultural Cities. If possible, choose your State Religion to be that of The Apostolic Palace for the Hammer bonus or at least the Religion with the most buildings in your three Culture Cities.

Sun Tzu Wu

Thanks!!

I'll try that out tomorrow.

The only way I can get the Sistine Chapel is to find stone and build the Pyramids. When the GE pops, I save him for when I tech Music. These are typically the only wonders that I am able to build. In BTS, I think that the Sistine Chapel is required, not only because you get the extra culture, but because you denay an AI player from getting the bonus.

I have never been able to get Liberalism before 600-800 AD on Diety and I have never won the race to Liberalism. My first GS always bulbs Compas. This is not entirely a waste as I can usually trade Compas for 3-4 techs total from the AI players. The secons GS techs partial Education.

I have only reached the end game successfully one time so far, and then I hit the wrong button (three GA joined my city...doh!) which invalidated my entry.

@ Sun Tzu Wu: What AI leaders do you generally play against?

One of the AI players always beats me to Music. If I could win the race to Music and keep it to myself while building the Sistine Chapel, that would really improve my game. The free GA from teching to Music first would be a nice bonus too.

My first GS always bulbs Compas. This is not entirely a waste as I can usually trade Compas for 3-4 techs total from the AI players. The secons GS techs partial Education.


Why not an Academy in the capital instead of bulbing Compass?
Or what about bulbing Philo for a religion?

@ Sun Tzu Wu: What AI leaders do you generally play against?


The easiest ones to defeat that match the game settings provided. :D

Seriously, this means I pick the AIs based on attributes and starting technologies that will be the easiest to defeat or contain.

For this gauntlet, I initially picked peaceful Civs without the Creative attribute and those who did not start with either Mining or Mysticism. Creative Civs can box one in quicker. I also don't like Civs building mines or researching BW, or founding Buddhism or Hinduism immediately.

For example, in my Turn 253 (AD 1715) GM-29 win

http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/game_info.php?dsply=&entryID=12625

I played against:

Lincoln
Roosevelt
Darius I
Sitting Bull

In an earlier post

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6962863&postcount=167

I described this game in some detail. In this game, I was able to build The Sistine Chapel with Marble, but failed to be the first to Liberalism. It was a poorly played game, but I did manage a Cultural Win.


One of the AI players always beats me to Music. If I could win the race to Music and keep it to myself while building the Sistine Chapel, that would really improve my game. The free GA from teching to Music first would be a nice bonus too.


Be sure your initial Fat Cross contains a Grassland Gems tile. After improving a Food tile, improve the Gems tile. It will provide a huge research boost at about the time Writing is started.

Sun Tzu Wu

What sort of map scripts are allowed? If costum map scripts are allowed you can mod things alot(like make gems appear in clusters of 10 then regenerate until you land in such a cluster), this wouldn't really be fair...

Also since you need to build a boatload of temples wouldn't spiritual be pretty good(it also allow you to switch civics fast and more flexible than usual ofc), and hence ghandi or mansa(although that means you can't have either in the game), ghandi's UU also happens to be pretty damn good...

In bts there are a ton of events, are there any events that are very beneficial to culture game? I know there are some that generate instant culture, some that give free golden ages and some that spreads religion, would this potentially make bts better than vanilla?

In bts there are a ton of events, are there any events that are very beneficial to culture game? I know there are some that generate instant culture, some that give free golden ages and some that spreads religion, would this potentially make bts better than vanilla?

There are 2 events that provide a free GA. That's quite good. On the other hand, slavery revolts are quite annoying.

Appart from Events, making a CS slingshot in BTS is much more difficult.

I like the National Sports League quest. Getting +4 culture for yout Colleseums is nice. I got that event followed by the Glatiator Champion which gave me an additional +5 (total of 9 culture from a non-culture building) in one game.

Ive gotten TSC several times in games where I bee-lined liberalism, and then traded/teched for athetics -> drama -> music (in BTS)
Helps to have marble when you do this though.

There are 2 events that provide a free GA. That's quite good. On the other hand, slavery revolts are quite annoying.


In my current game, events have been clearly far more destructive than productive ...

Productive:

The human experiments of medicinal plants have the risk of losing Population for a chance of Civilization wide Health boost of 1-2. I was partially lucky; I lost 1 Population and gained 2 Health.

Destructive:

My slaves have been rebellious in my Capital 3 times so far by turn 150 (AD 800). There are three choices, but I don't completely understand the impact of them, so I have always chosen the middle one: Pay about 10G, lose 1 Population and 1 turn of disorder (Quell the rebellion and address slaves complaints). Each turn of disorder in the Capital effectively put my entire Civilization in anarchy, since almost all my research is generated in my Capital.

In the same event, my Capital's Library and University were destroyed in a flood just prior to turn 150 (AD 800). This one was particularly nasty. I don't really need the research, since I turned on the Culture in Turn 135 (AD 500), but I really miss the 2 + 3 = 5 Culture per turn those two buildings were generating.

Events have been so destructive in my current game that I almost decided to turn them off for my future GM-29 games.


Appart from Events, making a CS slingshot in BTS is much more difficult.

Not able to research fast enough to make Civil Service available before The Oracle completes (including an AI completing it first)?

Sun Tzu Wu

Ive gotten TSC several times in games where I bee-lined liberalism, and then traded/teched for athetics -> drama -> music (in BTS)
Helps to have marble when you do this though.


That's amazing, since it is likely that the first AI to Music would _not_ trade it while it built The Sistine Chapel. ssjos, how many AIs had Music when you were able to trade for it?

Mesix's idea of building The Pyramids and using the resulting Great Engineer to build The Sistine Chapel sounds good for quickly building TSC after trading for Music. (However, that could be difficult if the Great Engineer is the second Great Person and costs 200 GPP; The first Great Person is often a Great Scientist to build an early Academy.)

Sun Tzu Wu

I like the National Sports League quest. Getting +4 culture for your Colleseums is nice. I got that event followed by the Glatiator Champion which gave me an additional +5 (total of 9 culture from a non-culture building) in one game.


What is the National Sports League quest?

What is a Glatiator Champion?

Sun Tzu Wu

I try to make sure that I have sufficient GE points in the Pyramid city before assigning Scientists in all the other cities.

The Soprts League Quest requires you to build several (five on a small map) colleseums. One of the options upon completion is to add +4 Culture to every Colleseum.

THe Gladiator Champion Event says that your Colleseum has hosted Gladiator games and a Champion has emerged. One of the options is to add +5 Culture to the Colleseum in the affected city.

I'm sure the text is slightly off, but those were approximately the events that I got in the game that I (not quite) won in 1822.

Just played a inland sea as elizabeth with mansa, lincon and darius. I had a double corn on a plains hill start with loads of hills around, no other resources. Got 2 floodplain cities and another 1 floodplain + cow + several grassland spot(secondary gp farm). Tech patch ag - wheel - pottery - writing - alpha(trade for alot of techs) - aestics(trade for some more techs, but did not manage to get monarchy which ment i delayed revolting to slavery and hrule until i could trade for it with about 100 beakers invested into it) - litterature - drama(popped a GS for philo, as my only selffounded religion) - music - col(traded for it after about 100 beakers invested as well) - CS - paper - edu - liberalism(for nationalism) - printing press upon where i stopped researching. Did not manage to trade for banking due to darius going wfyabta on me, and some poor management. I made academy in capital which in hindsight was a huge mistake as it never worked any cottages, built pantheon, sistine and NE there all without marble, should also have build hermitage with mines but i wanted to get artists up and running which was prolly a mistake, as it was the 3 cities were extremely close and i bombed almost entierly equal. I was a bit slow in settling the 3rd cultural city which was partially a mistake but had more to do with the way the land was laid. Also both my cottage cities topped out at size 14 which could obviously be improved upon. As it was after a heapload of mistakes and 14 GA's + 3 GS(i think) i got all 3 to legendary in 1560... This was without hofmod though(don't have inet on my comp with civ atm and don't have the hof mod there). I never had library in either of my cottage cities which is prolly a mistake and i should prolly have whipped the cathedrals a bit more.. Also i ran out of cash towards the end which was prolly due to me asking too little from the AI(i had about 1.5K in the bank when i started going 100%). No stone / marble / copper ment i couldn't actually get any double speed cathedrals which kinda sucked...

I think if i am playing this again it'll be without darius. He was largely useless in that he refused to trade me any techs until both others knew it(at which point i could just get it from mansa)... Anyone know what leaders require only one other leader to know a tech before trading it away? Also would be nice to know which leaders have caste system / hrule / slavery(although i guess it wouldn't last forever) / free speech / pacifism / decentralisation(though not going to stay there all game unless you mess up something) / mercantilism(if you get to banking) as favourite civics? I think looking into what leaders like this with low trading threshold might give you better results..

Oh and this is my first deity win btw, although i haven't actually tried before and chosing leaders feels kinda like cheating as getting declared on here means you have done something wrong...

I am sure that especially with MOM some amount of golden ages will be worth it.. So a marble game where you get pantheon + sistine + mom + taj could potentially be very good, Those plains cottages(or grassland hills) get quite good when you are in a golden age(as does windmills, although doubtful you'll get the techs for making this good), and would let you build cathedrals faster, it doesn't give alot of direct culture/beakers(thorugh commerce, as you'll be working tops 50 commerce titles), but if you have a good main GP farm and a decent secondary you'll get quite a bit of GPP as well as hammers right when they are needed(and hence more culture). I haven't done any calcultations but in my game my main gp farm had 26 raw and the secondary 15 for 41 raw gpp per turn which translates into 328 or 492 gpp which might be enough for another GP(or at least the last one a bit earlier), i think i popped 1 scientist(while my capital were working hammer titles under burrecracy to get up wonders) and 3 artists(might have been 2 though) from my secondary gp farm. Say 10 hammers in each of your commerce cities which translates into 160 or 240 extra hammers or one or one and a half speed up cathedral(my cities were still building cathedrals at the end of the game, and in an optimal game you prolly want all the cathedral resources), which might have improved my finish quite alot.

1) Beeline to Alphabet; Build Library; Run 2 Scientists -> Great Scientist -> Academy in Capital (may overlay with steps 2-3 below).



Sun Tzu Wu

Well, I followed your advice and was able to build TSC but I missed Lib by 16 turns. In the end I had all 3 cities at 38k culture when Roosevelt got the culture win.

It was a loss but it was the closest I have come yet. I think I need a better start location. I had marble which helped with the build but I had little commerce so research wasn't helped in the beginning.

Tried again. Got TSC again but missed Lib by 6 turns this time (had gems). Had 5 religions so was building cath. like crazy. All was going well until Roosevelt decided that the americans (lincoln) were a threat and asked me to join him in a war. With 5 cities and 3 archers, I didn't think a war against American Rifleman was prudent so I declined. After a short war with lincoln, he decided that I needed to be invaded.

Try number 12 down, time for lucky 13

Washington DOW me last game too. Maybe the Americans aren't as peaceful as I thought.

Well, I followed your advice and was able to build TSC but I missed Lib by 16 turns. In the end I had all 3 cities at 38k culture when Roosevelt got the culture win.


Your game ending with about 38k Culture each in your three Culture cities, sounds like you were trying to balance the Culture by building Cathedrals and Hermitage in the Culture cities with lowest Culture.

Trying to balance the Culture level of the three Cultural cities is not the optimal plan to get all three cities Legendary as early as possible:

The other part of the strategy discussed earlier in this thread has one of the three Culture cities be the main GP Farm with at most 0-2 mined hills and the other two Culture cities are mainly cottages with a few mined hills. The GP Farm will have a low base Culture and low Hammers, so all Cathedrals and Hermitage should be built in the two Cottage cities. The GP Farm may only generate 10k Culture itself, so up to 10 Great Artists need to be generated to bomb it to Legendary. One or both Cottage cities may not have enough Culture either, so an additional number of Great Artists will be needed to bomb them as well. Great Artists should be saved till the end game when it is clear which cities they should bomb.

Ideally, one of the two Cottage cities will go Legendary by itself when you have exactly enough Great Artists to bomb the other two to Legendary. If it appears that you may not have enough Great Artists when this happens, then Hermitage should be built in the Cottage city trailing in Culture (the one with lower base Culture); multiplying Culture in a city that will go Legendary by itself is a waste of a Culture multiplying building. If both Cottage cities will go Legendary before there are enough Great Artists, you are not running enough Artists. You can savage your game by building Hermitage in the GP Farm (maybe with a saved GE); never plan to build Hermitage (or Cathedrals) in the GP Farm.

Sun Tzu Wu

Why does the GP farm have low base culture. If you have the Sistine Chapel and run 7 Artists, that should be 42 culture all by itself. Assuming you have the National Epic in this city as well and a few Culture buildings (Monument, Lubrary, Temples, Monistaries, etc.) many of which have doubled in culture over the years, it seems logical that the GP farm could be producing 70 to 100 base Culture. Running Free Speech and Building four Cathedrials has the potential to boost the GP farm to 400+ culture per turn. In the one game that I finished, my GP farm was producing over 700 culture per turn (although that was after accidentially adding three GA to the city instead of culture bombing like I should have).

13 went even worse. Lost my number 2 city to american culture. AAAARRRRGGGGGHHHH!

This shouldn't be this hard! Maybe we can get a settler major gauntlet, I might be able to finish that!!

Okay so try number 14 tomorrow night at work.

Why does the GP farm have low base culture. If you have the Sistine Chapel and run 7 Artists, that should be 42 culture all by itself. Assuming you have the National Epic in this city as well and a few Culture buildings (Monument, Lubrary, Temples, Monistaries, etc.) many of which have doubled in culture over the years, it seems logical that the GP farm could be producing 70 to 100 base Culture. Running Free Speech and Building four Cathedrials has the potential to boost the GP farm to 400+ culture per turn. In the one game that I finished, my GP farm was producing over 700 culture per turn (although that was after accidentially adding three GA to the city instead of culture bombing like I should have).

My GP Farm usually produces around 70 base culture without any WW. That's what gets it to 10k around 15xx.

The problem with building cathedrals etc. there is that unless you are rushbuying, you are sacrificing artist turns by working mines or pop-rushing (and if you pop-rush you are not in caste so you are sacrificing a whole bunch of artist turns). That means you don't pop as many GA's as fast. So you have to decide how many GA's it "costs" to build cathedrals there and whether that additional culture multiplier is worth it (I doubt it if you are planning to finish before 1700AD).

To get a good (sub-1500) time, you need a capital with 2-3 early cathedrals (4 total) that goes legendary on it's own, a second cottage city with herm and 1-2 early cathedrals (4 total) that is 4 bombs short of legendary when the capital is done and a GP farm that generates 10k and 14GA's (inc a 2nd farm) or 6k and 15GA's by the time the capital is done. And you need to be in FS by 300AD.

Not able to research fast enough to make Civil Service available before The Oracle completes (including an AI completing it first)?

Sun Tzu Wu

Yes, that's it.

Just played a inland sea as elizabeth with mansa, lincon and darius. I had a double corn on a plains hill start with loads of hills around, no other resources. Got 2 floodplain cities and another 1 floodplain + cow + several grassland spot(secondary gp farm). Tech patch ag - wheel - pottery - writing - alpha(trade for alot of techs) - aestics(trade for some more techs, but did not manage to get monarchy which ment i delayed revolting to slavery and hrule until i could trade for it with about 100 beakers invested into it) - litterature - drama(popped a GS for philo, as my only selffounded religion) - music - col(traded for it after about 100 beakers invested as well) - CS - paper - edu - liberalism(for nationalism) - printing press upon where i stopped researching. Did not manage to trade for banking due to darius going wfyabta on me, and some poor management. I made academy in capital which in hindsight was a huge mistake as it never worked any cottages, built pantheon, sistine and NE there all without marble, should also have build hermitage with mines but i wanted to get artists up and running which was prolly a mistake, as it was the 3 cities were extremely close and i bombed almost entierly equal. I was a bit slow in settling the 3rd cultural city which was partially a mistake but had more to do with the way the land was laid. Also both my cottage cities topped out at size 14 which could obviously be improved upon. As it was after a heapload of mistakes and 14 GA's + 3 GS(i think) i got all 3 to legendary in 1560... This was without hofmod though(don't have inet on my comp with civ atm and don't have the hof mod there). I never had library in either of my cottage cities which is prolly a mistake and i should prolly have whipped the cathedrals a bit more.. Also i ran out of cash towards the end which was prolly due to me asking too little from the AI(i had about 1.5K in the bank when i started going 100%). No stone / marble / copper ment i couldn't actually get any double speed cathedrals which kinda sucked...

I think if i am playing this again it'll be without darius. He was largely useless in that he refused to trade me any techs until both others knew it(at which point i could just get it from mansa)... Anyone know what leaders require only one other leader to know a tech before trading it away? Also would be nice to know which leaders have caste system / hrule / slavery(although i guess it wouldn't last forever) / free speech / pacifism / decentralisation(though not going to stay there all game unless you mess up something) / mercantilism(if you get to banking) as favourite civics? I think looking into what leaders like this with low trading threshold might give you better results..

Oh and this is my first deity win btw, although i haven't actually tried before and chosing leaders feels kinda like cheating as getting declared on here means you have done something wrong...

Looks like a nice game. Specially so being your first Deity win! Lots of room for improvement too.

Do you remember the date you reached Liberalism?
How many religions did you have?
Did you play against 3 leaders? I think 4 is the minimum for a valid HOF submission.

I keep on debating if it is better to go from CS to Liberalism, and trade up to Music; or to go for Music first and then race for Liberalism. :confused:

I am sure that especially with MOM some amount of golden ages will be worth it.. So a marble game where you get pantheon + sistine + mom + taj could potentially be very good, Those plains cottages(or grassland hills) get quite good when you are in a golden age(as does windmills, although doubtful you'll get the techs for making this good), and would let you build cathedrals faster, it doesn't give alot of direct culture/beakers(thorugh commerce, as you'll be working tops 50 commerce titles), but if you have a good main GP farm and a decent secondary you'll get quite a bit of GPP as well as hammers right when they are needed(and hence more culture). I haven't done any calcultations but in my game my main gp farm had 26 raw and the secondary 15 for 41 raw gpp per turn which translates into 328 or 492 gpp which might be enough for another GP(or at least the last one a bit earlier), i think i popped 1 scientist(while my capital were working hammer titles under burrecracy to get up wonders) and 3 artists(might have been 2 though) from my secondary gp farm. Say 10 hammers in each of your commerce cities which translates into 160 or 240 extra hammers or one or one and a half speed up cathedral(my cities were still building cathedrals at the end of the game, and in an optimal game you prolly want all the cathedral resources), which might have improved my finish quite alot.

Intuitively I feel a single GoldenAge has to be good.

Some maths:

- Some 500gpp is a 25% of one additional GP at 2000GPP, so it is the equivalent of some 1000c.
- 25 cottages plus some 5 miscelaneous commerce tiles in the three cities would mean some 250 additional commerce.
- Half a cathedral's worth of hammers might be the equivalent of 500c, since it will accelerate the following cathedral too...
- Synchronizing the GoldenAge with a couple of revolutions (maybe one of civics and a state religion declaration) would save 2 turns. At the end of the game, when finishing 1450AD, you are probably doing a total of around 1100cpt between your three cities. So 2 turns saved anytime equates 2200cpt at the end of the game.
- Any more factors?

My (rough estimates) maths seem to indicate that one shouldn't trigger a Golden Age with a GA or with a GS while still researching. Anyway, the numbers are close and there are too many estimations, so in the adecuate circumstances it would be beneficial. The most important factor seems to be free revolutions, the following in importance would be GPP generation.

I had a game that looked to be going really well. I started with the much coveted Grasslands Gems tile along with seafood, cows, ivory, and a couple of calander resources in my BFC. I was only able to get four cities out before the AI rexed all the available land, but that was okay. My capitol and one other city had high production and commerce. A third was a GP farm, and the forth was building temples for all four religions and running one artist. I was researching education in 1 AD. I was able to get four GA, my capitol up to 20K culture and the second culture city to 10K by 1180 AD when Haty won a Religious Victory.

1180 and the AI won the game from under me! All of my other starts have lasted until at least 1600. I get a great start and the the AI finishes me off fast.

Back to the drawing board.