This thread is just an effert to centre all the ponderings and musings concerning the angels and magic. So if you have ANY questions about magic or Angels; Ask here please. Keeps things simple.

My first Question: Which civs match wich Angels/Magic. My knowledge is as such:
Lugus: Malakim
Sirona: Elohim
Nantosuelta: Luichuirp
Amathaon: Kuriotates
Junil: Bannor
Arawn: Sidar?
Oghma: Amurites?
Danalin: Lanun
Dagda: Grigori
Kilmorph: Khazad
Sucellus: ?
Cernunnos: Ljosalfar
Tali: Hippus
Camuloes: Doviello?
Aeron: Calabim
Ceridwen: Sheim
Mammon: ?
Esus: Svartalfar
Mulcarn: Illians/Doviello?
Agares: Infernal
Bhall: Clan of Embers
Please Expand/Correct if you know anything.

The only ones you missed were:

Sucellus; Mercurians; Life
Mammon; Balseraphs; Mind

Sadly we will probably turn this thread into a thread discussing spells (since we turned the spells thread into one about angels)

Sadly we will probably turn this thread into a thread discussing spells (since we turned the spells thread into one about angels)
Well, thats sort of why I chose to start this one.;)

The only ones you missed were:

Sucellus; Mercurians; Life
Mammon; Balseraphs; Mind

So I got the others all right? Whow. I was Guessing on a few of them.:D

Well, the Mercurians represent the Life sphere, but not Sucellus. Basium never thought highly of Sucellus, "whose only military achievement was failing at what a mere mortal bag of flesh later succeeded" (that is almost a quote from Kael, but I forget the exact wording). He wanted Arawn to give him the sphere of Life, so that he could use it to fight demons. He was the Archangel of Life after all. (He and His Twin sister, Gyra, Archangel of Death, were created by Arawn when he was god of life, not by the original god of Life, Nemed, or the future one, Sucellus)


Kael, does this conflict with what you recently said about all the gods having reverence for Sucellus on account of Nemed? Or is it only the gods that feel that way, not their archangels? What does Basium know about Nemed? Archangels weren't created until after Nemed abdicated his Precept in order to father the human race, after all. Of course, Basium does know enough about The One to carve his named into his fingers, and logically it seems like the archangel of life should know at least as much about the old god of life as the other archangels.

Having Auric Ulvin/Mulcarn like the risen Sucellus seems a little odd too, since they weren't friendly in their first lives.



Also, it obviously wasn't right to list the Doviello under Mulcarn too. And you misspelled Camulos.

Did the other gods have more respect for Arawn when he was God of Life, or did also being God of Death anchor down his personalty and make his less like Nemed? Is there something about the Life sphere that makes one want to sacrifice it? No other god has ever abdicated a precept, yet gods of life have done so twice. Does this mean that Sucellus won't hold on to it either?




Does Nemed (or the man who used to be Nemed) (still) know how to use magic?

If magic is the power the gods used to create the world, and the first man was once a god, it seems like he would still have enough knowledge of magic to be a very powerful archmage. Which raises questions as to how Os-Gabella manages to keep him prisoner. (Of course, it could also help explain why she needed to study under Kyorlin to learn how to do so.) It also seems like he might have taught magic to someone before Ceridwen did, doesn't it? Or does he not know how anymore? It does seem like giving up his memory along with his precept could explain a few things. It might also rule him out as the founder of the Luonnatar though (per one of my crazy theories)



How can Dwarves use magic?

You have stated that men can channel magic because of the "Divine Spark." Men have the Divine Spark through their descent from Nemed, one of the original creations of The One. Elves, Aifons, and Orks are all descended from Men, and thus from Nemed. The Dwarves, however, are not descended from Nemed, but from statues given life by Kilmorph. Do they have immortal souls? Are their souls of a different nature than human/elf/aifon/ork souls, being from Kilmorph instead of Nemed? Are their souls the souls of human worshipers of Kilmorph reincarnated in smaller, sturdier bodies? Is the Dwarven creation story wrong, and they actually humans changed by their close contact to with Kilmorph (like the elves were by their contact with Sucellus and the Aifons with Danalin), who were either deceived by Kilmorph or made up their own myth because they didn't want to be associated with human enemies? Is this just an inconsistency arising from the fact that you hadn't come up with the Nemed character at the time you wrote the story of Keldon Ki?


What chance does Laroth have for becoming a becoming the God of Death? Is it even possible for a mortal to ascend to godhood? Are other humans aiming at divinity (besides Auric)?

What sort of power can mortals gain from the Gems of Creation? How much of the Gods' power relies on the infinite plains of raw elements created by Agares?

Having Auric Ulvin/Mulcarn like the risen Sucellus seems a little odd too.

Well, perhapes the New, Reborn/Human AuricUlvin/Mulcarn has a new respect for Sucellus, both for his rebirth and the fact that Sucellus put all of Nature at risk to try and stop him(Mulcarn)


Also, it obviously wasn't right to list the Doviello under Mulcarn too.
Well, I was spitballing

And you misspelled Camulos.
Darn.

How can Dwarves use magic?

You have stated that men can channel magic because of the "Divine Spark." Men have the Divine Spark through their descent from Nemed, one of the original creations of The One. Elves, Aifons, and Orks are all descended from Men, and thus from Nemed. The Dwarves, however, are not descended from Nemed, but from statues given life by Kilmorph. Do they have souls? Are their souls of a different nature than human/elf/aifon/ork souls, being from Kilmorph instead of Nemed? Are their souls the souls of human worshipers of Kilmorph reincarnated in smaller, sturdier bodies? Is the Dwarven creation story wrong, and they actually humans changed by their close contact to with Kilmorph (like the elves were by their contact with Sucellus and the Aifons with Danalin), who were either deceived by Kilmorph or made up their own myth because they didn't want to be associated with human enemies? Is this just an inconsistency arising from the fact that you hadn't come up with the Nemed character at the time you wrote the story of Keldon Ki?

Well, maybe the original dwarves/Khazad can't use magic, but the Luchuip gained the ability to use magic through their ties with Nantosuelta.

Well, maybe the original dwarves/Khazad can't use magic, but the Luchuip gained the ability to use magic through their ties with Nantosuelta.I wonder if it's possible for Dwarves and Humans to cross-breed in Erebus? If so, that might explain why the Luchuip can use magic, since they lived on the surface a lot more than the Khazad did.

I was trying to connect the peoples to their respective gods last night, and I think I got it, but the Sidar seem kind of strange, in that they're associated with the sphere of Death but they don't get Death mana with their palace. I'm guessing the reason is that they hate the undead, and all the Death spells create undead creatures, right?

I don't know if dwarves and men can crossbreed (we know elves and men can, but elves are descended from humans anyway), but I don't think that only the Luchuirp are part human, or that the Khazad are unable to use magic. They can still have do have Adepts, after all. Also, it goes deeper than just using magic. The Divine spark is also what the Gods want from us. If they don;t have immortal souls, then the Gods would not seek to have them serve them. Yet we know that there are dwarves who follow Kilmorph (obviously), Junil (Maros joined the Order), and Sucellus (hmm... it doesn't seem to be in the civilopedia anymore, but Arthendain's entry used to say that he died after an encounter with Mary andpromised his soul to Sucellus, who resurrected him tasked him with defeating Mary and ending the plague)



Death Magic does not come from Arawn. Basically all the gods hate Death magic (which is really Undeath magic), but Arawn hates it more than anyone. He so was horrified by the abominations that sorcerers or earlier ages made with Death magic that he refuses to enter creation, so that mages cannot use him as a portal through which to channel the power of death magic. This doesn't matter so much now though , since The Gem of Death which Agares smuggled out of the True Heaven now lies in the hand of Tuoni, one of the Tree Brothers. It is from this gem, which has the power of an infinite plain of pure death, that the power of death magic is drawn.


The Sidar Revere Arawn but don't exactly worship him. They tried to worship him in the past, but have pretty much realized that he doesn't want their worship. He has never done anything to help them, but Gyra, the Archangel of Death, has intervened on their behalf a couple times (at least once saving them from her twin brother, the Archangel of Life, Basium). The Sidar Hero, Rathaus Denmora, entered the passage from which Varn's people escaped the Underworld seeking to serve Arawn. He didn;t realize that that portion of the underworld was under the rule of Laroth, the dead Archmage of Spirit Magic who had built an empire in the Underworld and was gathering an army with which to try to usurp Arawn's Godhood. The angel he meets in the passage was loyal to Laroth, the Netherblade was created by Laroth (enchanted by having people's souls ripped out and bound to it), and it is Laroth he is serving by slaying the heroes of Erebus. (Only heroes have the strength of will to be useful in Laroth's army, instead of being caught up in their eternal dreams.) It is also the magic of Laroth (spells found in magical tomes stolen from Laroth's palace by Varn's father when the Once Elves escaped from the Underworld to the Shadowed Vale, and taken by Varn from the Shadowed Vale into Creation) that were used to create the first Shades. So, although they want to serve the god of death, they are actually helping his enemy.

Kael, does this conflict with what you recently said about all the gods having reverence for Sucellus on account of Nemed? Or is it only the gods that feel that way, not their archangels? What does Basium know about Nemed? Archangels weren't created until after Nemed abdicated his Precept in order to father the human race, after all. Of course, Basium does know enough about The One to carve his named into his fingers, and logically it seems like the archangel of life should know at least as much about the old god of life as the other archangels.

Oh, Basium hates Sucellus, there is no doubt.

Having Auric Ulvin/Mulcarn like the risen Sucellus seems a little odd too, since they weren't friendly in their first lives.

Mulcarn never knew the risen Sucellus so he never had to consider the "Nemed reborn" aspect. Auric isnt a god so he wouldn't fall into the statement.

How can Dwarves use magic?

You have stated that men can channel magic because of the "Divine Spark." Men have the Divine Spark through their descent from Nemed, one of the original creations of The One. Elves, Aifons, and Orks are all descended from Men, and thus from Nemed. The Dwarves, however, are not descended from Nemed, but from statues given life by Kilmorph. Do they have immortal souls? Are their souls of a different nature than human/elf/aifon/ork souls, being from Kilmorph instead of Nemed? Are their souls the souls of human worshipers of Kilmorph reincarnated in smaller, sturdier bodies? Is the Dwarven creation story wrong, and they actually humans changed by their close contact to with Kilmorph (like the elves were by their contact with Sucellus and the Aifons with Danalin), who were either deceived by Kilmorph or made up their own myth because they didn't want to be associated with human enemies? Is this just an inconsistency arising from the fact that you hadn't come up with the Nemed character at the time you wrote the story of Keldon Ki?

In the D&D game dwarves couldnt use magic at all. In the original FfH design the khazad were supposed to have hired human mages instead of dwarven adepts. The luchuirp werent dwarves in the origional D&D game.

As you said there is a gap there (that dwarven adepts can use spells, that the luchuirp can have archmages). But I feel like some of that comes through. That is the reason why the khazad are so weak in magic, the Luchuirp could justify their magic use through the use of enchanted items instead of their direct casting (though that does beg the question of how they enchant itself without the "divine spark").

What chance does Laroth have for becoming a becoming the God of Death? Is it even possible for a mortal to ascend to godhood? Are other humans aiming at divinity (besides Auric)?

I dont know about Laroth, some of Arawns angels have sided with him, so they seem to think he can do it. He is an incrediably powerful figure. Pretty much the father of the Sidar (who use his rituals to trade their souls for long life without wondering where their souls are going...), and creator of the Nether Blade. He does a lot of messing around for someone trapped in the afterworld.

Yes it is possible for a mortal to ascend to godhood. If the creation of Sucellus can do it, why not the children of Nemed.

Yeah, a few people are going for differing versions of godhood. The three brothers are treated as a new generation of gods, and they pretty much have the power to back it up. Others seek to make themselves gods just by gathering followers to worship them (not that it buys them anything but adjulation). There are thousands of angels under Camulos trying to take his seat, but thats not unusal for that group.

What sort of power can mortals gain from the Gems of Creation? How much of the Gods' power relies on the infinite plains of raw elements created by Agares?

Only two of the brothers were ever more than backstory in the D&D games. One was the godking over a nation (i dont remember the nation, this was an early campaign so i dont think it would have matched up with what we have now). Other countries, and the players, doubted his divinity as if he was another crackpot. A war was raged and an army marched against his country. He ordered his own army to stand down and he met the invading army standing atop a cliff edge.

He raised his hand, where the gem was placed. The winds started, enemy banners flapped, then he dropped his hand. Tonadoes snaked down onto the battlefield. The army was destroyed in a fury of tornadoes and lighting strikes. He push the winds back and they carried the remains of the destroyed army back enemy capital, where they were dumped on the city in the heart of a massive storm.

The second character the players directly interacted with. He was called Tuoni, Hades, about a dozen names of different death gods. He was able to trap the souls of those that died before they went into the afterworld. The party got in a fight with him and he sent dozens of their most powerful defeated enemies back against them at once.

A side story: one of the players was specialized as a werewolf slayer. This is durign the casting of the spells of winter, and the sun had already been extinguished so werewolves prowled the land in packs under the eternal night. Duin was the head fo the werewolves and once the party figured out who he was and what he had been doing the inevitable fight ensured.

What was planned to be a huge fight ended in one attack. The werewolf slayer rolled a crit against Duin, then rolled 100 on the percentile for the crit effect (we had a chart for that and 100 was the most deadly effect). With the crit effect and the slayers own bonuses it was enough to Duin in one shot. I had a big werewofl fight planned, but I scrapped it assuming that all the werewolves that saw that would stand down and wouldn't dare attack the party.

Cut to a year or so later in real time. Tuoni/Hades stood at the top of the Malachite Palace (the gate to the afterworld in the shadowed vale) and the party charged up the stairs at him, weapons drawn. As with his brother, up came the hand, this time with a huge opal embeded in his palm. He couldn't kill the players because of a previous protection so he summoned a dozen or so of their old enemies to defned the stairs.

The werewolf slayer met the ghost of Duin. He rolled his attack, got a crit and again rolled a 100. Duin was for the 2nd time downed in a single hit without even swinging a blow. For years afterwards Duin was the name given to any big nasty plot encounter that was completly disabled by some minor action. Poor guy never got any respect.

ok I'm completely lost here, the three brothers thing was part of a D&D campaign right?

While I am a fan of FFH, I know very little about D&D.

ok I'm completely lost here, the three brothers thing was part of a D&D campaign right?

While I am a fan of FFH, I know very little about D&D.

Its backstory lore of FfH too. Agares secreted these gems out of heaven that allowed him to create after the One had taken the gift away from him. Much, much later three brothers stole three of these gems and gained a huge amount of power from it.

I did see the part about him secreting the mana gems, but I didn't see anything about three brothers.

See, even in D&D you can lose a fight with 98% chance to win... Poor Duin.

hmmm kael didn't respond to how Os-Gabella keeps Nemed, a former god, prisoner... it almost seems intentional

@Kael: I know that Sucellus's aspect is to do with growth and development over time, which is kinda reflected in the game with the FoL civic, which allows growth of cities to keep going for longer. What is Esus's aspect? And is it reflected in-game in the Council of Esus or the Svartalfar. Would it be possible for you to upload that chart of yours that displays all the angels, civs, animals, aspects linked togeather or would there be too many spoilers?

When considering why the Khazad have very limited magic, the reson might be thus: Being created from statures, the original Dwarves had no souls or magic. However, Kilmorph felt pity on her creation, cursed to emtyness after destruction. So, she dicided to cause the succeding generations of Dwarves to have shorter live(they were immortal), and in exchange, they gained souls and magic. However, the dwarves had lived for so long without magic, they diiden't know how to use it to it's fullest potential. A breakaway group(Luichiup), however, discover from humans or elves the power of magic. So, the Luichiup, who became tied with Nantsuelta, learned to use magic and enchantment, while the Khazad contented them selves with machines, having become distrustful of magic, and unwilling to learn from human mages, do to how humans had tricked them with magic in the past. Or something like that.
(Full apoligies for any spelling mistakes/non-canon information I may use. I'm not at home, so I can't access the Civopedia.

That still doesn't explain how they got souls. The way I see it, there are only 4 explanations:
1. Kilmorph caused the souls of humans who had gone to her vault after death to be reincarnated in dwarven form. (This seems like it might conflict with what Kyorlin told Epona though)

2. The Gods are capable of creating souls from their own, instead of passing them on only through sexual reproduction. This would probably mean that Dwarven souls are of a markedly different nature than human/elven/aifon/orkish souls,made from the element of earth instead of life. In this case, Dwarven souls were probably created the same way as true angels were created.

3. The soul is not passed on through sexual reproduction, but in any act of creating. In this case, Keldon Ki imbued his statues with part of his essence as he crafted them just as easily as if they were his biological children.

4. The story of Keldon Ki is only a myth believed by superstitious Dwarves. The Dwarves are simply humans who (like the Elves and Aifons) were changed by prolonged exposure to their god(dess). Keldon either never existed, or the Dwarves were actually his biological children instead of his handiwork.




Does Os-Gabella have a soul? How about the woman created to replace her? They were not descended from their husband, Nemed, but created by the joint action of the gods. Yet, we know that Os-Gabella uses magic, as she was one of the students of Kyorlin.

3. The soul is not passed on through sexual reproduction, but in any act of creating. In this case, Keldon Ki imbued his statues with part of his essence as he crafted them just as easily as if they were his biological children.

Does Os-Gabella have a soul? How about the woman created to replace her? They were not descended from their husband, Nemed, but created by the joint action of the gods. Yet, we know that Os-Gabella uses magic, as she was one of the students of Kyorlin.

Well, Artist do often say that their tring to "capture the sould" of what the create. It does say that Keldon Ki's work captured the "essence"
of his creations. Maybe the first dwarves souls were just what he imagined them with, and that was how it was created. As to Os-Gabella, good point.

I kind of like number 4, after all, hundreds of millenia separates the creation of humans from the age of rebirth. In the real world, scientists believe anatomically modern humans appeared about 800,000 years ago. Even 500 millenia would be plenty of time for humans to change in the presence of thier god like the Elves and Aifon did, and they are descended from humans that were in the care of Succellus and Danalin repsectively.

It is really not a stretch to think of Kilmorph protecting groups of humans that went deep into caves, eventually into the underhome, trying to hide from the godswar. I know Kilmorph participated in the fighting, but it doesn't mean that she didn't try to protect groups of humans.

There are caves that go deep into the earth and some pretty cavernous caves, so it's not hard for me to imagine that. Also, since plants apparently don't require photosynthesis on Erebus (doesn't mean they don't make use of it), they could have taken seeds of plants with them. After all, the dwarves do have to make thier beer from something and I don't think mushrooms, even in Erebus, would make good beer.

Its backstory lore of FfH too. Agares secreted these gems out of heaven that allowed him to create after the One had taken the gift away from him. Much, much later three brothers stole three of these gems and gained a huge amount of power from it.

Which three? Death, apparently, and nature? and...?

The Three Brothers stole the Gems of Death, Air, and Water.


(who use his rituals to trade their souls for long life without wondering where their souls are going...)
Wait...I was under the impression that they were just consuming their own souls. Are you saying their near-immortality is due to giving their souls to Laroth?



@Kael: I know that Sucellus's aspect is to do with growth and development over time, which is kinda reflected in the game with the FoL civic, which allows growth of cities to keep going for longer. What is Esus's aspect? And is it reflected in-game in the Council of Esus or the Svartalfar. Would it be possible for you to upload that chart of yours that displays all the angels, civs, animals, aspects linked togeather or would there be too many spoilers?
Sucellus's aspect was Nature/Growth, but now it is Life/Healing/Rebirth. Esus was originally the God of Trust, but after he sides with Agares he became the God of Deception. Sucellus' animal was the Deer, but is now the Phoenix. Esus' is a Panther. Sucellus' civ was the Ljosalfar, and he is hated by Basium, the leader of the civ of his new aspect. Esus' is the Svartalfar.

He raised his hand, where the gem was placed. The winds started, enemy banners flapped, then he dropped his hand. Tonadoes snaked down onto the battlefield. The army was destroyed in a fury of tornadoes and lighting strikes. He push the winds back and they carried the remains of the destroyed army back enemy capital, where they were dumped on the city in the heart of a massive storm.

I think air mana might have been one of them.

edit: ninjaed by Magister

Also, is the edit thread thing going straight to advanced for anybody? this is really wierd.

Thematicly, I love the Octopus Overlords, but does anyone else think they should get something to compansait the loss of Slavery?

This isn't so much a lore question, but how much does each earth mana increase the chance of discovering minerals by?
Edit: I guess no one feals the way I do about the overlords.

Well, OO didn't lose Slavery, it just lost exclusive use of it. It could probably use some boost though. I'm making all religions stronger in my modmod, so I deal with seeing how balanced the religions are afterwards.



Originally Posted by Kael (Some parts cut) (I found this quoted by someone else, and don;t know where it was first found)
Earth nodes now increase the chance of spawning resources. So before there was a 1 in 10,000 chance of a mine finding a resource each turn. (...) In the new system the limit is divided by the amount of earth nodes you have +1. So if you have 1 earth node its 1 in 5000, if you have 2 its 1 in 3,333, if you have 3 its 1 in 2500, etc.




So, why are Lamia so good at magic? May we assume they are descended from Humans too (maybe those who spent lots of time with Amathaon?), and thus also have the Divine Spark?

No one has answered whether/why Gabella (or Nemed's second wife) has the divine spark (we know she she can use magic) yet either.

The lamia are supposed to be human from the waist up with the rest bieng the body of a lion, centaur style, right?

Also they are supposed to be a female only race right? in the D&D monster book I have, it says that they are female only and have to mate with another species (forget the name). Unless Kael is using a different description of them.

I'm not sure that humans even in the presence of a god, would change that radically, unless Amathaon is less human looking than the other angels. Or bieng the god/goddess of creation/procreation/birth, Amathaon has much more control over genetics than the other gods do.

They are half snake, not lion. There was a picture of them in the Art Blog awhile ago, but they need to be animated before use.

The one we saw was female, but I'm not sure if they are all women.

Well, the D&D monstrous manual as it's called is apparently updated for the second edition of D&D and while the description says the lower body is a lion, goat, deer or some other beast, the pic shows it as half lion.

It's possible that another version of the Lamia was made later on in another D&D edition.

Well, Mulcarn didn't exactly look human. Cernunnos and Succelus look like they are part deer.

How did any of the demi-human races arise? I don't really like the idea that so many of the Kuriotates citizens are soulless animals. It seems to be that they should all have human ancestry. I just got to thinking that it could be interesting if they were the descendants of the experiments of Patrian Life-magic mages, but instead of just creating new life like they did with Griffons (It seemed like these were described as new lifeforms, but saying that they too were a sort of living, reproducing fleshgolems could work too) they fused humans with woodland creatures. Perhaps the Lamia are the descendants of the mages who actually did this, which would explain their heritage of magic use.

That could explain the Centaurs as well in Erebus, although the Centaurs aren't really magic users. Doesn't mean that they can't use it if they wanted to learn it.

I guess you have a point there with Mulcarn.

Still, it depends on the point of reference that we are coming from, since the book I read is from the second edition. Also, I found where the images for the Lamia are supposed to be in the Art Blog, but the images are no longer there.

Encyclopedia Mythica states that the Lamia (http://www.pantheon.org/articles/l/lamia.html) was a "snake-like creature with a female head and breasts. Usually female, but sometimes referred to as a male or a hermaphrodite." That would be the ancient Greek depiction.

The AD&D Monster manual is less specific, essentially upper torso & head human female with the lower body being that of a beast. The picture has a combined goat/lion body with a human upper torso.

It comes down to how do people want the lamia depicted? Like Nagas (http://www.pantheon.org/articles/n/nagas.html), or as per the various D&D monster manuals describe them? Personally, I favor the "snake-like creature with a female head and breasts" myself.

This has been taking over 12 hours to post, so I copied and pasted to try again:


I had never heard of the D&D description. It sounds kinda of arbitrary. I prefer the classical Greek variety, except for the part about being evil and devouring children. The view of Nagas as Fertility divinities could fit well too, seeing as The Kuriotates' patron Amathaon is the god of fertility.

The model that was shown a while back was simply a topless blond woman (not nearly as attractive as the Succubus model that was introduced about the same time) whose body was a snake from the waste down.


Lamia appears in the Vulgate as St. Jerome's translation of Lilith (on whom Os-Gabella is based). Of course, I personally think that a literal translation of Lilith ("screech owl") would make a whole lot more sense in that context.

Okay, so Agares is now trying to destroy creation. Mot of his followers with free will don't know this, do they?
Edit: do the angels following Agares know he plans to destroy creation (and them with it), or do they tink they can stop him before he succeds?

Sorry, edit made a new post for some reason. Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn

Lamja is snake in some slavic languages...

Not quit magic or angels, but which can first, Magister Cultuum the forum name, or Migister Cultuum the Great Sage? Because, he just poped up in my Kurio game.

The Great Sage is named after the real life "sage-of-FFH" that is Magister :)

Ok, I had a feeling that was how it was done.

yea, he is THE FFH lore buff around here :)

About Lamia, the Greeks belived that Lamia was the daughter of Posiedon and Lybie. Lamia was queen of Libya, and lover of Zeus. When Hera found out, she stole all of Lamia' children. Mad with grief, Lamia begain murdering children. Zeus tried to appess Lamia by giving her the gift of prophacy, and the ability to take out her eyes and put them back in at will. When Hera killed al of Lamia's children but Scylla, she turned into a monster. In Christian belief, Lamia and Lilith are the same, as in Isaiah 34:14 Lilith is translated as Lamia. It may be that in fall from heaven, Lamia where a race of humans changed by exposure to an Angel(possibly Agares, his symbol is a snake). Oh, also the greeks thought Lamia was unable to close her eyes, and that see wasn't half snake, but wore snake skins like a skirt or belt. Some people also thought she had a phallus. It wasn't really the Renaissance that Lamia was half-women-half-snake. Of course my source could be diffrent than others.

The idea that they descended from a group of humans that were changed by the fall of maybe Agares is plausible. Only thing though, how long after the creation of man did Agares fall? Even if Eve had stayed immortal for a few centuries, there would be less than a thousand humans only a century after thier creation. If those humans bred as fast as they could and inbreeding was not a problem, there wouldn't be a million after the sixh generation.

Also, this must of been misided in the ponderings about Lamia, but here it goes again:
Okay, so Agares is now trying to destroy creation. Most of his followers with free will don't know this, do they?
Edit: do the angels following Agares know he plans to destroy creation (and them with it), or do they tink they can stop him before he succeds?

The Great Serpent is the constellation sacred to Agares, but the snake (in its ancient Greek-inspired role of being a wise creature related to healing) is actually the symbol of Amathaon. Lamia as Amathaon-influenced humans makes a lot more sense, as Amathaon is the patron of the Kuriotates.



In FfH, the only Eve we know of is the orininal incarnation of Epona.

We never knew the name of Nemed's second wife. All we know is that she was a mortal (and probably without a soul) created to replace Gabella. We do however know that the early generations of humans had much greater longevity. I suspect that she may not have lived that long, but her daughters may all have lived for tens of thousands of years even before menopause. I like to think that the longevity of Elves (some elves from the Age of Magic are still alive and fairly youthful in the Age of Reborth) is still significantly less that that of the original men from whom they were descended. Having hundreds or even thousands of children each could have been quite common back then. It does seem, however, that it would be hard to say when the sixth generation of man was, since the first and second generations could still be having many children at the same time as their great-great-great-great-great-great-...great-great-great-great-grand children. There were also probably many births from parents of different generations.

[QUOTE=MagisterCultuum;6948099] Lamia as Amathaon-influenced humans makes a lot more sense, as Amathaon is the patron of the Kuriotates./QUOTE]
:agree:
Ya, and that would explain why they don't seam to be to be greaf crazed-child eating monster's with Removable eyes:mischief:. Mabye Centaur's come also from Exposure to Amathaon:undecide:.

Actually, thinking about human races modified by the presence of the angels is pretty intersting:
Amathaon: A bit like a zoo(not demening any of his(?) races), with alsorts of creaters, like possibly Lamia and Centaur.
Danalin: The Aifon
Kilmorph: The dwarves, probably
Sucellus: Elves
Tali: Bird people?
Aeron: Possibly effected the Vampires, he might of partially caused them to change like they do, but this could just be aneffect of Vampirisum
Bhall: Orcs?
Mulcarn: Frostlings.
Of course, these are simply musing, but feel free to coment on any other human races you can thibk of.

The Aifon and Elves were created by exposure to Danalin and Sucellus in the Age of Magic.

The Dwarves were first statues that Kilmorph gave life to.

The first vampires were created by consuming another person's soul

Orcs were created during Bhhall's fall. Her fall mutated many of her followers making orcs.

Frostlings were created by Mulcarn, I believe from those who died in the blizzards during the Age of Ice.

There has never been any information on bird people, and Amathaon's link to Lamia and Centaurs is pure conjunction.

I never said this was canon or acurate. I was just musing on what form humans might of taken from exposure to gods. and it is quete possible that Dwarves were humans changed by living underground, My reference to vampires was more wondering about what caused them to become pale and fanged and weak to sunlight. And there where refernces to Orces befor Bhalls fall, but they were discribed a fair and elagent like elves. And Frostlings were spirits of the dead in the age of ice, which were reborn as frostlings.

Vampires are weak from light because of a curse by Lugus. The first vampire, Alexis, was created by stealing a priest of Lugus' soul.

It is stated in the pedia Dwarves were created from statues. Bambur is one of the original dwarves.

Where did you find the Orcs before the Fall info? Could you give me a link?

I can't remember where it was, it might not be there anymore. Okay, it might have mean Pyr of the Seriphic. It looks like it might have been a retcon. It was only a passing mention. I forgot that Alexis's first victom was a priest of Lugus. And if you look back through this thread, the belief that dwarves might have been humans adpted to like undeground by Kilmorph was to answer the question of how the Dwarves gained the Divine Spark, souls and magic.

However, the civilopedia tells us otherwise. The logical explanation is that part of Kilmorph's enchantment gave them the divine spark and souls, or dwarves simply use enchanments to do magic (The enchanments made using divine magic, thus the spark would be needed).

Yes, but that might be a dwarvish legend. every culture on Earth has it's own creation story, and seeing as how their is magic and angels in Fall from Heaven, it might be true.
Wait? Early in this thread I was agueing in favor of a very similar point to you. Darn, Magister Cultuum is pursasive. Whoe.

Well "problem" with legends about the cration of Dwarves is Bambur being still around. So no secondhand myths required. :p
They "just" need to ask him (and perhaps other very early dwarves) and if he choses not to lie (which dwarves are perhaps not all that prone to like humans are but surely still might) then they know.

Oh and good Bambur can use magic of sorts by enchanting weapons (even if that rather is a representation of superior smithing abilities, perhaps. To put equipment done by him "on par" with enchanted weapons).

Well, the main reson for questioning the story of the dwarfs creation has less to do with the Khazad (their magic might be more along the line of sealing magic runes in objects, then using their power), but the Luchuip can use magic with little effort. Garrim Gyr could use fire magic. Of course, if the dwarvin legends are true, then the Luchuip might have magic from exposure to Nantosuelta, but it says that magic is made possible by the divine spark, and if Kilmorph or Nantosuelta gifted the dwarves with the divine spark, then they would have needed to to this before the signing of the compact, as I think it would be a pretty big infererance. Of, course I'm not saying the Dwarvin legends are wrong, just that they have some problems. Bambur could have been chosen as a leader of the early Dwarves, gifted with imortallity, or by some other means.

I think that a problem bigger than the use of magic is the fact that Dwarves have religion, and have been shown bargaining with gods for their souls. Arthendain's entry used to mention him swearing his eternal soul to Sucellus in exchange for a second life, in which to avenge his first death by killing Typhoid Mary (now Mary Morbus). We also know that when Maros was upset by a deal with demons he left the Khazad to join the Order. I have some trouble believing that Junil would accept a soulless being. And of course, they can adopt any religion in the game and use all the divine magic. I believe it has been stated that a man's ability to use divine magic is dependant on his faith in his god. I think of this as perhaps being a sort of subconscious channeling of magic/the essence of the god's precept, which would also depend on the Divine Spark.


It does raise some questions as to where the powers of the angels (excluding the original 21) come from.



I suppose it could be possible that Bambur thinks he was created by Keldon Ki and Kilmorph. It could be that Keldon had children (possibly his own, maybe the orphans of other prisoners) imprisoned with him and placed in his care, and lied to them when they asked where they cane from. It could have started sort of like saying that babies are brought b the Stork (or even as a half joking bedtime story), but the children took it seriously. Eventually it was enshrined as the truth and an essential tenant of their religion. I prefer to think that Bambur is not truly immortal, but that he is from a very early generation of man when humans in general were very close to immortality.

I don't think the compact said anything about giving the divine spark to things.

After all, Kilmorph did grant the wish of Kheldon who must have been a faithful follower of Kilmorph or something.

Just how long do the dwarves live anyway? If they were initially immortal, then the present generation would have a far longer lifespan than even the elves. They would have been created within 5,000 years of the current date in FFH2 since the Patrian empire certainly didn't last 10,000 years.

I know the Chinese culture has been around for over 3,000 years, but dynasties come and go, empires rise and fall, but even if the Chinese empire fell, thier culture would still be there.

I think the longest lasting empire on earth is probably the chinese empire at over 2,000 years old. Although according to wikipedia, Japan is still an empire and there was one in Korea for over 3,000 years. I'm skeptical on korea as it says korean empires. There aren't alot of empires that lasted over a thousand years.

My point is that empires rarely last up to a thousand years. They could last over 2,000 years like China did. Cultural unity kind of helps and it doesn't sound like Patria would have been very culturally uniform.

@Magister Cultuum, very possible. It could also be that maybe the "children of Keldon Ki" weren’t longer lived then normal, but after they somehow escaped in to Earth, Kilmorph took pity on them, and ether created the elder dwarves like Bambur like in the legend, or caused early generation humans to find them, and help them, since I doubt Keldon Ki's "children" would have many survival skills. Kilmorph could have caused these humans to change, to look like the dwarves, and Bambur could agree with the legend because he realizes what the truth could to the dwarves. After all, it wreck most of their beliefs if they found out they where actually descended from men. The blood of the "elder" dwarves might have caused the regular dwarves to have extended lives, or the dwarves might have a lower reproductive rate then men, meaning less generations seprate them from Nemed, so they still live longer then men.

you know, I just realized something, since Os-Gaballa learned dimensional magic and the Sheaim have those planar gates.

Dimensional magic is like opening bridges between different planes or dimensions. I wasn't sure where to post this, so I thought heck just post here.

Well, she could be the one that creates the planar gates, then every year, thousands of young adepts are sucked dry maintaning the gate, and its becon the other planes. Makes sense, sounds like something the sheim would do.

well when kilmorph brought the statues to life as dwarfs couldnt she have just infused them with the lifesparks of dead followers?

And once again:
Okay, so Agares is now trying to destroy creation. Mot of his followers with free will don't know this, do they?
Edit: do the angels following Agares know he plans to destroy creation (and them with it), or do they tink they can stop him before he succeds?

I think most followers are only in his serrvice for poweer, and care little for his motives.

His angels probably do know, and agree that creation must be destroyed.

Ceridwen definately knows (she seems to actually be taking a much more active role in destroying it than he is. She was the one who let Tebryn live again in order to bring the End.), but I'm less sure about the others.

We don't really know for sure if they will perish with creation, or if they could really destroy creation at all. I think the main point in destroying creation is to force The One to admit he was wrong. The One may very well intervene to stop them, but it has been said that the corruption was too great for him to be able to rid creation of it without destroying everything himself. I think that Agares really wants The One to destroy creation, just as he hmself destroyed Nyx, to prove that The One is no better than he is.




In general, agares and his followers just want to hurt those they hate as much as they possibly can. In this they become very shortsighted (since Mammon isn't doing his original job) and do not act in their own long term best interest. They may know they are helping to destroy creation and thence themselves, but they do not care about that nearly as much as making sure others don't win.

but they do not care about that nearly as much as making sure others don't win.

Even each other among the evil gods?

Magister: I could see Bambur being from an early human generation, except for the fact that he is apparently the only one of them left.

The rest could have died violent deaths. I Imagine the Underhome is full of all sorts of weird monsters.

mycconiods won't be the only life to have evolved/been created down there...

The more I think about it the more I can't understand Bambur. He is by far the oldest mortal on Erebus -- one of only four heroes to antedate the Age of Rebirth, and probably older than every leader except Os-Gabella and the angels. Either as one of the first-generation humans or "one of the few remaining" original dwarves, why is he still alive, and why aren't any people his age alive -- aside from a few other "remaining" original dwarves, who are quite evidently not important. Why is he important? Because he wrote the Tablets/is a great blacksmith? Why isn't he more prominent then? Why doesn't he lead a dwarven faction? Where was he in the Age of Ice -- in the Underhome or among the Open-Skiers? Did all the other original dwarves die off in the Age of Ice? And how long can Bambur expect to live? Will he be immortal?

Is oghma male or Female, and who's his/her's archangel?

Although I had long assumed female, Kael revealed Oghma is male. His archangel is Embarr, "Imagination"

I think that only Sirona, Bhall, Kilmorph, and Ceridwen are female.

Edit: oh yeah, Nantosuelta too. I thought I was forgetting one.

Although we tend to associate fertility/birth with females, Amathaon has been specifically stated as being male.

It was definitely Nantosuelta and not Sirona that was in love with Sucellus. The god whom Sirona most loved was Agares, before his fall. While all the other good gods hate him, she still loves him (although certainly not his actions) and believes he can be redeemed.

Isn't Nantosuelta female? I think it was mentioned that she was in love with Succellus, or was that Sirona?

Anyways, there aren't many goddesses in the Erebusian pantheon.

I think Amathaon might be female since butterflies are the embodiment of hhis/her thoughts. Unless it's already been said that one is male.

Ya, I also thought Oghma was female. Just something about it.

Ya, I also thought Oghma was female. Just something about it.

It's the -a :)
It's more than likely that Oghma is inspired by Oghma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oghma_(Forgotten_Realms)) from the Forgotten Realms setting.

It's the -a :)
It's more than likely that Oghma is inspired by Oghma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oghma_(Forgotten_Realms)) from the Forgotten Realms setting.Quite possible, since FfH is based on Kael's long-running D&D campaign. However, he has also mentioned that he wanted to use names from lesser known mythologies (Greek, Norse, and Egyptian being overused) and so the original inspiration might have been Ogma (www.pantheon.org/articles/o/ogma.html).

Edit 1: Or the source might be Ogmios (http://www.pantheon.org/articles/o/ogmios.html)

(The original Celtic deity was probably the inspiration for the Forgotten Realms deity as well.)

I'm fairly sure the inspiration (at least for the name) was from the Celtic diety. But also the general theme is very fitting. IIRC, Kael came up with most of his names on his lonesome, althought they coincide with various other RPGs and D&D settings.

Is it just me not paying attention, or was Dimmestional Magic Removed temporaraly? As in, its still gone.

Is it just me not paying attention, or was Dimmestional Magic Removed temporarily? As in, its still gone.

Kael didn't think it was worth keeping as it only had 1 spell. It was removed when the sorcery and summoning were merged. He said he will add it back if he (or we) come up with good, flavorful, and balanced spells for the second and third level spells.

I guess he didn't think my proposals were balanced enough. In my modmod I'm adding it back. Level 1 will again be Escape, level 2 will create a temporary Obsidian Gate (I'm probably removing the Obsidian Gates, The Nexus, and Pass Through the Ether), and level 3 summons a paradropping transport unit. All 3 grant a promotion to summons, which boosts the summons duration. (I'm removing the Summoning Trait too. The duration changes are the biggest reason I need to wait for xienwolf to update his xml modcomp for me to release my modmod.)

Does choas mana still randomly mutate? It's got no listed passive effect.

I think it still does. Saw it happen to a worker once.

Anyways, regarding Dimensional magic and Creation magic, the entries for them are still there in the xml, at least in the FFH2 game text. It's just invisible in the game. Whether or not Kael left them there intentionally or simply forgot about it, I have no idea.

a little off topic but part of one of the scenarios is also in the XML. it seemed pretty cool