Hello everyone, this is a series that emphasizes the (somewhat controversial) use of the Apostolic Palace as either the player's tool of destruction, or victory. This series is intended to highlight the strategic choices that go into diplomacy, as well as religious manipulation to strengthen one's position (or win!). The default difficulty in the series, for now:

- Emperor, Epic Speed, Ancient Era
- Standard Size Shuffle Map: Random Climate, Random Sea Level

As host of the series, I won't be putting anything in spoilers. I will place the scenario file in the first post of these threads. You are welcome to shadow, I only ask that you place shadow games in spoilers if you wish to share them with fellow forumers. Additionally, you are welcome to play these games out in any manner that suits you - attempting to show up my AP skills, show other victory conditions are more/less challenging given the map, or just because you haven't had a domination win in a while!

Our leader:

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk134/themelnteam/APG%20II%20Washington/WashingtonStartScreen0000.jpg

Washington won the poll over Justinian and Shaka 10-7-7. Therefore, he gets the call in APG II. One of my favorite leaders due to his trait combo and civ, Washington is extremely versatile and can function reasonable well in virtually every start position. He's really not specifically suited to an AP win, although there's certainly nothing precluding any leader from going this route!

And the start:

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk134/themelnteam/APG%20II%20Washington/4000BCStart0000.jpg

We have food and then some more food. I'll be settling in place. Note that we appear to be close to a northern edge of the map. Being a shuffle map, this could be interesting.

Ah, yes. The file in the last APG was functional, but it wasn't a scenario. THIS TIME, I have it working properly, so you can select your difficulty and speed. Let's see some shadow games this time! Assuming you're not too busy playing in the other series :lol:.

179955

:nono:

You forgot to clean the units and the fog of war ( do you really want that our poor friends that play in Noble to get AI starting with archers? ;) The emperor starting tech bonuses are more than enough to make this a Noble+ game :p )

I cleaned the starting units and the fog of war ( refrained myself to take the bonus techs though... I'm in a good mood :p ). My version is below.

On game: wash is good for more pop in cities ( more :) + more :health: ), thus fattening the AP votes. You have some woods and lots of food as well. Full blown SE trailing to Theo? Oracle powered GP bulb?

I was actually planning to use ASAP stonehenge for the prophet again due to its synergy with my trait, then screw around with the GPP's so I pop a prophet first. Theo is pretty easy that way.

I'm still pretty new to the producing maps thing...I've largely just modified games so that I could play at the speed I wanted (caring little about the bonus, whether they hand me an advantage or disadvantage). I'm kind of lazy though so I'm not going to do what Bleys is kind enough to do and make M and P versions :lol:. The other thing is I don't want to actually see who's on the map and how it looks. I zoom in on the worldbuilder and quickly save it...is it possible to clean these things using just the text editor?

If not, I'll probably just put a disclaimer in my post about the noble++ :lol:. Since I'm posting these games as I play them live I really don't want to have any more WB knowledge of the maps than absolutely necessary (used find/replace to edit out the other playable civs, then only changed washington back, so I don't know who my opponents are yet, or where).

Possibly going to shadow this one... after I finish the PYL game with Hannibal.

TMIT, that kind of editing is far more easy with notepad than in WB: to remove the units you only need to delete everything between BeginUnit tags and to clean fog of war you only need to delete all the lines with TeamReveal tags ( easy to do with Notepad ). You can also add/remove techs in the team section ( is easy to spot if you have the WB in front of you ).

Dale had made a nice guide to know all this stuff (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=135669). With some practice you can edit a WB without even opening Civ IV ( like I did with this one ).

There are some known issues even with this ( the bonus techs of the levels do not pop if you already defined a leader.... a consequence of the game mechanics..... nothing you can do besides a full mod ), but it normally works not too bad.

On game: Henge comes too early for a timely Theo bulb IMHO. You probably don't have enough prod power at the time to start the AP ( unless you want christianity badly ). Oracle comes in much more reasonable time frame.... and if needed you can even Oracle Theo and use the GP for the shrine :p

:drool:, what nice food start. I spot 7 specialists @ size 11 here, pre-CivilS. After CivilS, 9 specialists @ size 15. Not bad. Infact, why don't you just go to the tech tree, puch Code Of Laws for earliest possible CasteSystem? :lol:

TMIT, that kind of editing is far more easy with notepad than in WB: to remove the units you only need to delete everything between BeginUnit tags and to clean fog of war you only need to delete all the lines with TeamReveal tags ( easy to do with Notepad ). You can also add/remove techs in the team section ( is easy to spot if you have the WB in front of you ).

Dale had made a nice guide to know all this stuff (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=135669). With some practice you can edit a WB without even opening Civ IV ( like I did with this one ).

There are some known issues even with this ( the bonus techs of the levels do not pop if you already defined a leader.... a consequence of the game mechanics..... nothing you can do besides a full mod ), but it normally works not too bad.

On game: Henge comes too early for a timely Theo bulb IMHO. You probably don't have enough prod power at the time to start the AP ( unless you want christianity badly ). Oracle comes in much more reasonable time frame.... and if needed you can even Oracle Theo and use the GP for the shrine :p

Thanks. I've bookmarked that link, but I'll probably wind up reading it at work next week :lol:.

I've used oracle to grab theo directly before but I usually reserve that for commerce rich starts (as you need writing and monotheism, and the usual bronzeworking for chopping also). Further favoring stonehenge is the fact that I'm charismatic, so it gives me instant :) in all cities as well as the faster border pop.

One of the strange things about the AI in this game is the "sour grapes" thing mentioned on a thread here a while back - namely once certain techs are researched, the AIs tend to stay away from them for a long time. This means that I can get theo relatively early, use the religion for its temples/monastery boosts, and actually delay the AP for a while without worries. In fact, I find that in games where I get theology ASAP, I can wait pretty late into the ADs before the AP would go. I've seen it go 800 AD or later on emperor, whereas if I DON'T get theology first it can go around 140AD or something...huge difference!

If I choose to oracle something, I worry about it a bit. Oracle inherently comes later than stonehenge, and henge lets me ignore the religious tech line until a little later on as the GP nears. Non-philosophical leaders seem to have trouble popping a GP off of just +2 GPP per turn, so I like to get that started early on so that I can start running scientists in other cities without worrying about either the GPP overtaking the capitol so easily or worse yet someone else grabbing theology first :(.

An alternative would be to build both, as they're both relatively cheap (as far as wonders go). Of course doing this would slow expansion so it would have to depend on scouting somewhat, but denying the AI that oracle tech would be pretty nice even if I wind up taking MC, Monarchy, or Alphabet. In non-AP games I've experimented with trying to bulb math and use the oracle for construction when I find ivory-and this can be really deadly.

I'll have to see how the map goes, if I get a tight spawn it's stonehenge ASAP followed by REX or rush, otherwise I might take a shot at both for 4 GPP and an extra tech to broker. Washington gets cheap workers and that kind of early game boost is useful even if it can't match industrious.

what nice food start. I spot 7 specialists @ size 11 here, pre-CivilS. After CivilS, 9 specialists @ size 15. Not bad. Infact, why don't you just go to the tech tree, puch Code Of Laws for earliest possible CasteSystem?

Because I'm trying to bulb theo for the AP ;). I agree though that's a lot of food and there's plenty of ways to use lots of food!

Ah GW, one of my fav leaders, I have developed a strong liking for the EXP trait with my recent addiction to GLH/TRE games, and EXP is a monster for that type of game.

I may have a go here at Emp with the GLH TRE plan, and even go for Stoney and popping a Proph for Theo and trying to build the AP myself, but I get really lost in the tech tree sometimes. I can usually hold my own at Emp, especially if I get the GLH (kicked butt with Pacal in a recent Emp BOTM, played the TRE like a pro, was a MONSTER tech lead, Pacal is crazy good with that style on the right map)

APG II - Part I

Settled in place because the start is very nice with food! Opening build is a worker, opening techs are mining/bronzeworking (USA starts with fishing and agriculture). I farm the corn + chop out workboats, workers, settler, etc.

Early in the game my warrior pops the wheel from a hut!

In 3375 BC I bump into Toku - joyous :rolleyes:. Shortly after I realize he's located SW of me. Long delay in meeting other AIs means I might be stuck with this guy only, and he looks to have easy access to multiple gems :(.

In 3125 BC I complete bronzeworking and promptly whip out a work boat. My philosophy is generally to avoid working unimproved tiles, and to only whip when doing so is efficient (such as when extra pop would be working unimproved tiles...). It's not always true but is probably the best canned rule of thumb possible.

I meet Brennus in 3025 BC, so at least I'm not "isolated" with an idiot.

In 2875 BC I pick up mysticism and start up AH, going pottery then writing next (basic useful techs). 2700 BC yields my 2nd worker (chopped out), and I begin on my only early wonder: stonehenge! In 2525 BC I remember that with no obvious bronze nearby I'll probably need archers, and switch towards that before going for the earlier mentioned techs. I finally get stonehenge in 2450 BC. Warriors fogbust while archery is teched out in 2225 BC.

New York gets founded LATE in 1925 BC:

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk134/themelnteam/APG%20II%20Washington/1925BCempire0000.jpg

Which I felt was ok because toku would have to settle jungle to settle towards me. He certainly could do that, but I didn't think his first cities would be there. I'll be REXing hard to compensate for this delay anyhow. New York picks up both gems and corn which is going to be a nice boost. That barracks is building for 1 turn, I'm starting a granary there then.

You'll notice another potential problem: NOBODY HAS RELIGION YET. This means that founding christianity will probably give me a friendly brennus and toku, but make the AP win harder unless I get another religion...

In 1500 BC, after losing one archer near washington attacking a warrior on a hill, I LOSE A SECOND ARCHER AT .07% ODDS to a warrior attacking across a river :mad:. I promptly flatten it with my lone remaining defender in my capitol...a warrior.

By 825 BC I do have 4 cities:

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk134/themelnteam/APG%20II%20Washington/825BCEmpire0000.jpg

9 turns on the GP, hopefully nobody goes early christianity, although I'm probably not going to be able to make that the AP religion.

In 350 BC we get theology:

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk134/themelnteam/APG%20II%20Washington/350BCtheologybulb0000.jpg

I was nervous because multiple other factions (unknown) popped prophets. The good news is that me and these 2 AIs are likely to be the only ones who DON'T have religious differences, given the founding patterns. I instantly convert to christianity, since obviously nobody I know of will care. Religion buys me some :) time so I go IW next instead of Monarchy (getting gems will help :) also!). Comic note: New York got the holy city status, and this is causing toku problems:

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk134/themelnteam/APG%20II%20Washington/245bcnewyorkpressingtoku0000.jpg

In 110 BC I grab iron working, THANKFULLY WE HAVE SOME.

In 25 AD, all hell breaks loose:

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk134/themelnteam/APG%20II%20Washington/25ADBrennusDoWToku0000.jpg

They both ask me to war and I refuse both, I'm not ready to vulture japanese cities yet, though in the near future ;)...

Apparently they didn't share religion long enough for it to matter :lol:. Ok, since I just hooked up iron and I have 2 pretty good earlygame hammer cities and a 3rd that isn't bad, I'm basically going to be massing sword/axe/spear and taking several of toku's cities. Who knows, if brennus hurts him enough I might be able to assist in wiping him out entirely, but I'm not going to get ahead of myself because right now I'm kind of weak and underfunded. I'd massed up some archers out of fear of toku so they can come with me on the offensive now and be my garrisons, maybe even help finish off weakened defenders.

While doing this I'm going to take monarchy, then currency/COL, then I'm going to take an off shot at getting the AP under Islam by founding that (planning to MASS up on scientists with caste). DR is probably a dangerous tech to shoot for early but given how it will trade to a probable friendly post-war brennus I'm willing to gamble a little bit. This map has all kinds of potential for me, because if I get a little lucky it'd be possible to win once I hit optics. We'll see if I get that kind of overseas luck however.

Part II through 1330 AD: Classical war with a massive dark age!

In 55 AD I start producing some swords/axes. I don't want to fight a protective civ like tokugawa if I can help it but he's there, he'll tech poorly, and he's already fighting Brennus. I'm also putting up temples in my cities while teching monarchy.

I revolt to theocracy for the exp.

In 130 AD I get a GS, which I use to bulb math...I want to get to currency ASAP.

In 205 AD I get my seafood pillaged by a barb galley, which I'm powerless against as I don't even have sailing :(. I'm getting sailing next, then currency to hook up trade routes with brennus!

220 AD I finally hook up those gems. 30 years later I take a barb city - Shangian using CR II swords. No losses. It has pigs and fish so it is obviously something I'd keep. Later in 445 AD I capture another barb city - this one has corn and deer so I again choose to keep it. I'm continuing to amass units although my capitol is shifting to the AP - I want to get the AP in this series ;).

505 I get an interesting event: The choice of a GG, GP, or GM. I take the prophet, because not only am I christian, the ENTIRE CONTINENT is. It's going to be worth nice GPT to shrine my holy city!

550 AD I realize I was mistaken, the unit is just settled in the city :(. A GP is still ok there because of his hammers (which I want, I'm using washington for production), but I'd have rather had the GG to be closer to 3 promo units. Oh well.

FINALLY, in 595 AD I DoW Toku:

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk134/themelnteam/APG%20II%20Washington/595ADDoWToku0000.jpg

I have EP on him so I know he's not even going for feudalism. I don't expect huge gains, just a couple cities. He's the most powerful out of the 3 of us, but he's also getting dogpiled! Of course I capture Nagoya instantly

Tokyo is his next city and it is well defended:

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk134/themelnteam/APG%20II%20Washington/730ADTokyowelldefended0000.jpg

So I just move on. Problem is, he sees Nagoya lightly defended and recaptures it :(:

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk134/themelnteam/APG%20II%20Washington/790ADJapanesecounterstrike0000.jpg

AP Completion in 820 AD, it's a welcome completion:

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk134/themelnteam/APG%20II%20Washington/820adAP0000.jpg

@ Rolo: It's important to bulb Theocracy or otherwise get it early IMO, because it makes other AIs delay the tech and leaves the AP unbuilt for MUCH longer than normal! Also note my next GP will be a prophet :). That will help a horrible economy up.

Toku's offensive backfires on him a bit in 835 AD:

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk134/themelnteam/APG%20II%20Washington/835backdoortokyo0000.jpg

I capture it losing 3 swords. I give him polytheism and 100 gold for peace. I want to see what he chooses to do with that big stack of his since he's still at war with Brennus.

In 880 AD (!) I grab CoL and now start on Alphabet as Brennus still doesn't have it.

970 AD I have Alphabet. I trade Aphabet, Meditation, CoL, Theology, and Currency to Brennus for Feudalism, construction, and 160 gold (Brennus is friendly to me, and he's at war with Toku, so he won't be trading anything to my target anyway).

Empire at 1010AD:

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk134/themelnteam/APG%20II%20Washington/1010ADSE0000.jpg

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk134/themelnteam/APG%20II%20Washington/1010ADNW0000.jpg

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk134/themelnteam/APG%20II%20Washington/1010ADtech0000.jpg

1100 AD we go ahead and give Brennus Calendar and 50 gold for HBR.

In 1130 AD I go back to war with Toku:

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk134/themelnteam/APG%20II%20Washington/1130ADmorewarwithToku0000.jpg

Again Nagoya is taken instantly. I get the feeling he won't be taking it back this time :).

In 1210 I'm at Kyoto and have used my 2 accuracy catapults to bombard it to 2% defenses, where I just attack:

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk134/themelnteam/APG%20II%20Washington/1210ADKyoto0000.jpg

I get really lucky in the first battle, winning at 12% odds with a stock CR II sword. The rest of the fights against non-axes were cake, as I had 3 CR III swords and the rest are CR II, so all high odds. NO LOSSES :lol:

In 1265, someone discovers liberalism. That's really cool because I'm 2 turns from machinery :lol:. Backwards USA, dominating its backwards continent. Swordsmen are not only still viable attackers, they are EXTREMELY EFFECTIVE, as the warring between toku and brennus (and me) has kept him from getting feudalism, even now. It helps that I took his gem city and now his capitol. He's currently teching machinery and will probably never get longbows. I'll have to keep an eye on his iron supply so I don't see xbows.

In 1275 I've lowered Kagoshima's defenses:

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk134/themelnteam/APG%20II%20Washington/1275ADnextcity0000.jpg

I lost one CR III sword to an axe :(. I killed the rest of the defenders without losses...you have to love how each city slows his research down even more.

Osaka is next:

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk134/themelnteam/APG%20II%20Washington/1320osaka0000.jpg

I do take some losses here, including one at 90% odds to make up for earlier 12% victories because the computer does hexing rituals on me.

I have minor WW problems so I take 90 gold and the city of Camulodunum for peace. I don't even know where that is but I'm going to power up my economy a bit.

In 1320 I trade philosophy and compass to brennus for CS. I revolt into Caste System and Bureaucracy. Here is the Japanese land after the war and revolt:

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk134/themelnteam/APG%20II%20Washington/1330ADempire0000.jpg

Summary so far:

I've captured a nice number of cities thus far. Japan is reeling although apparently prior to my interference they'd been beating the Celts. My entire continent is obviously painfully backwards as liberalism went long ago and none of us even have paper! Notice right at the end I'm teching optics - I'm going to delay meeting the AIs a tiny bit though.

Why?

Well, it's clear the only people with the AP religion are on my continent. This brings up an interesting ability: If I can eventually get to liberalism and vassal someone (probably the celts), I have the AP votes I need right there by forcing them into FR. I might not even need astronomy, just to quickly spread the religion to new civs. Most civs will open borders if you gift gold right when you meet them. Of course this is touch and go and I have to make sure I get to FR or else Brennus would be eligible even as a vassal.

If I go that route, I'll likely have to gift whatever cities I take of his back so that I don't have too high % of the votes. That should be OK though as after I take Japan out it seems I will have enough cities anyway.

Final note: That trade I made for CS gives me the requirements for maces, so I'll probably wait a few turns at 0% science to upgrade all of my C1 CR III swords to maces :devil:. Not sure how toku's CG III archers and shock axes will hold up then!

APG Washington Part III - Backing into WAR!!!

1365 Celts recapture (apparently) Vienne. I can't imagine Toku lasting long with most of his core cities under my possession.
1370 I change my mind about other civs, I'm going straight for Astronomy for the trade power. I can hopefully hold until I can go NSR. The research boost should bring me along more quickly.
1390 Toku makes peace with Brennus. Poor toku. He's about to get stomped.
1400 I declae on Toku for the 3rd time:

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk134/themelnteam/APG%20II%20Washington/14003rdwarontoku0000.jpg

The game's broken mechanics put toku and brennus to friendly INSTANTLY after they stopped fighting :rolleyes:. That makes a whole lot of sense. Will it matter? Of course not. Even after the hit I'm +13 with Brennus, and I plan on attacking him anyway. A turn into the war, I spot samarai...thank god no longbows yet though.

Interesting. Samarai and xbows. That's really cute. I lose a couple units and kill a couple, actually retreating. A lot of garbage fighting happens outside osaka...nobody is making progress. I need to find this idiot's iron and get rid of it. I already took 2 sources too!

In 1450 I meet montezuma, Ghandi, and Justinian. Justinian is way ahead of me techwise...Gandhi is about equal. Montezuma is...worse than toku :lol:.

FINALLY, by 1505 I take a Japanese city, the one that was splitting my northern empire from the south. I also located his iron, which I'm going to go after not by pillaging but by just taking the city due to the ease of logistics of that vs the alternative.

I take Izumo, the iron city, but Japanese culture still captures iron. He has six cities to my 14, and I've been winning the whole time. Capitulation? Of course not. I'm glad brennus isn't fighting him after all, the game mechanics would probably find a way for him to capitulate to Brennus! In 1565 I pillage iron. By 1580 super samarai weaken and kill enough units that I have to take peace. More like, WW forced it :(.

OK, time for some fast teching and whore trading. I go all cities making wealth, and slam the slider up to 70%. 285 BPT very temporarily. I'm going to tech astro and risk trading it to the other continent for some power military techs. Then every city gets a theater. Then, a couple guerilla II longbows will pillage toku's 1st source of iron while a HA pillages the other on the first turn of the war that's bound to happen eventually.

In 1685 I complete printing press, which is a significant boost! Going for liberalism next. Washington switches to CR III trebs made pretty much every turn, while most other cities are making theaters and collies for :) to combat WW.

I trade PP to Brennus for guilds, map, and 100 gold.

In 1712, Brennus becomes a VOLUNTARY vassal :lol:. This is really useful. I can kick him into FR whenever I feel like now. Ah yes, Washington is making combat IV knights. Very, very fun. I have OB with everyone too. It has REALLY just come down to taking TOKU out of the picture.

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk134/themelnteam/APG%20II%20Washington/17264thwaronToku0000.jpg

In 1730 (thanks to a gay accidental click it doesn't align with the screenshot because I accidentally, moved an important pillage stack into his borders) I declare on Toku.

1736 I take Toku's one city he had a castle in. I didn't bombard I just suicided the trebs then attacked. I lost a lot of units :(. Speed was important though, because that city was all that had iron anymore. At the start of this war I pillaged his Iron with 2 Guerrilla II Longbows, which are now camping there. It's longbows for the rest of the war!

My roommate harassed me into playing gunbound so I'll have screenies up in a bit.

APG II Part IV - Medieval Smack Down Continues, Religion Spread FTW

1746 Maps had long revealed Korea, but I forgot I hadn't met them yet. I instantly gift him 100 gold for pleased and open borders. I'm 6 turns out of liberalism so I'll go FR just before spreading to everyone, but first I have to finish that war on Toku...

In 1754 Brennus finally did as instructed and captured Vienne back from Toku :rolleyes:. He's still not ready to capitulate but without iron he's hardly ready to do anything meaningful to combat IV knights.

I finally hit LIBERALISM in 1756 AD. Despite this I feel good about the game as the empire is pretty big and I have some crazy military power capabilities:

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk134/themelnteam/APG%20II%20Washington/1756cIVknightstokuwar0000.jpg

1 turn later I use a spy to revolt that city, then its on and his forces get steamrolled :devil:. Tokugawa capitulates after I take it!

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk134/themelnteam/APG%20II%20Washington/1758tokucap0000.jpg

1760 AD victory condition check: Justinian is going for culture, and so is wang. They've both got 2 cities at 25k culture, but keep in mind that I'm on epic so they need 75k. I have plenty of time. Everyone is in FR or Org Rel who doesn't have christianity (and those who do are my vassals who will vote for me).

I make a navigation 2 galleon in washington and set the missionaries in. The order: Monty (he tends not to spread), Ghandi (he might but he's only got 4 cities), justinian/wang ASAP together. Culture whores happily spread religion and I really don't want to fight these guys. They're way ahead in tech and though I'll catch up soon likely I don't want to deal with it. Plus, the whole point of this thing is to win AP!

1766 Monty capitulates to Justinian. Irrelevant.

1772 Gunpowder/lib to brennus for nationalism/banking/map/85 gold. Every little bit helps.

1786 Spy starts golden age.

In 1806 all civs have the AP religion. The dye is cast. Now, I revolt into FR, switch toku and brennus into it, and sit back :).

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk134/themelnteam/APG%20II%20Washington/1806allcivshaveAPreligion0000.jpg

1820 AP vote hasn't come up yet which is unusual. Just as an experiment I save it and reload it. Last time I did this the sleeping AP woke up. Not sure if that makes a difference or not, but the religious leader vote comes up in 1828 AD!

And the result:

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk134/themelnteam/APG%20II%20Washington/1830APwin0000.jpg

Info Screen and Score:

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk134/themelnteam/APG%20II%20Washington/infoscreen0000.jpg

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk134/themelnteam/APG%20II%20Washington/score0000.jpg

This game turned into a classical unit slugfest that lasted clean into what is often the renaissance (!), as the shuffle setting seems to have given me a hemispheres draw, and without very many strong techers or tech whores the global rate was pretty slow. At the end I had democracy (traded it for sci method also) and was headed for rifling. Two civs had grenadiers but I'd have been first to rifles and from there the runaway leader to infantry and with washington making nearly a unit/turn with 4 promotions each you can imagine how that would turn out :D.

This game at least looked a little different than the last due to the map settings and the necessity for vassals due to christianity being the only religion for 3 civs for most of the game!

Toku is a serious pain in the middle ages. That thread about "finally" having a good game with him makes me laugh now - samarai are RIDICULOUS. I had a drill II xbow that had below 50% odds against a shock samarai on flatlands...! Eventually my GG's allowed me to pump out super soldiers from washington, and guerrilla xbows on hills will of course hold the stack easily against pretty much everything (and I made use of guerrilla extensively actually! It's a very sound stack defense promo!). Once I finally neutralized his FOUR sources of iron he fell. Again, you typically wouldn't want to go to medieval war vs toku, but I had the dogpile advantage and badly damaged him before he got there (if I hadn't dug so deep into his commerce cities before he got machinery, I might have lost this game!).

Pretty fun. It isn't too often I get to use swords after 1000 AD on emperor.

Wow, no other posts?

What can you do, I hope people reading this learn from them though :(. I can't compete with people like obsolete or rusten but i'm not trying to either. I started this series because I believed the AP underused - and it has a heavy emphasis on diplomatic manipulation, although obviously game events will dictate to what extent it shows. Unfortunately this one was just a slugfest to force vassals to vote but that's one method.

Anyway, I have a strong memory and I still remember this game quite well, so if anyone actually has questions about it I can answer them...also check out the one that's actually ongoing ;).

What can you do, I hope people reading this learn from them though :(
I learn from it. I actually got my first AP win two days ago using the trick where you switch to a non-state religion.

What can you do, I hope people reading this learn from them though :(. I can't compete with people like obsolete or rusten but i'm not trying to either. I started this series because I believed the AP underused - and it has a heavy emphasis on diplomatic manipulation, although obviously game events will dictate to what extent it shows. Unfortunately this one was just a slugfest to force vassals to vote but that's one method.

Anyway, I have a strong memory and I still remember this game quite well, so if anyone actually has questions about it I can answer them...also check out the one that's actually ongoing ;).

Don't worry, I love your games :goodjob:

Great game TMIT ;). I've never gone for an AP win, nor read through a posted game doing it, so this was very informative for me. I like the total play time of 4 hours. That is an accomplishment of its own. But why did you swith to FR? None of the other guys voted for you anyway.. just your vassals.

I believe he switched into FR to force his Vassals to do likewise - otherwise they'd have been able to run against him.

That is exactly correct. Early in the game summary I mentioned not being able to build the AP in Christianity, and the reason I said so is that anybody running the AP religion is considered a "full member" and is eligible for chair/victory votes. Building it in christianity meant that at least one of my two neighbors would vote for himself. I ran out of time to build it though and had to, but knowing full well that I'd have to win the continent by force as a result.

When not in the state religion, the only person eligible for the AP is the person who controls it. By forcing them into free religion, I made it so they would vote for me, not themselves. You can't bribe AI's into civics you're not in though, so I had to make the switch myself also.