The time have come for the merge with Fall Further. 2009 04 08

Below is a file with an 'assets' folder that you just copy/paste over the assets folder in Fall Further 050. Right now the clock is near two in the morning and I -might- have fumbled with something. But everything seems to be there.

;)

I hope the Fall Further team can check it out, and merge it into next Fall Further version. They have my full permission to tweak anything they see fit to tweak. If outrageous changes needs done, pls PM me.. :cool:

Use the zip file 'Fall Further w Jotnar' below.

Updates:
20090409 - There are some version issues, taking it down until its is fixed.











Welcome Now in (almost) 1.0 Version!!!

This is a giant civ for the Fall From Heaven mod.

Jotnar are the giant kin, an assortment of races that is held together by a common ancestry and traditions. They live centred around small family groups called 'Steaddings' or 'Homestaeds', not seldom attracting some odd kin to their dwellings. Hill giants, Trolls, Fiery giants, Tritons of the sea .. even the mightiest of them - the Titans - might fall in under their banners once they unraveled the mystery of immortality. Tightly held together, slow to bear offspring and to come to action, their pure size make them a force to be considered.

Discussion leading to this civ can be found in this thread:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=275026

Unique features:
- Units with big base strength, high unit supply cost, and no mounted or archers. Many can move impassable terrain (aka mountains).
- Cities use only the first tier, or the thin cross. Many small cities.
- Focus on great persons and a special building that allows almost all Jotnar unit to hold the 'Spirit Guide' promotion, allowing for sharing of experience.



:thanx:

I want to give credits to:
- the artist wom made the marvellous images
- the skinners that made the sea-giant
- the Warhammer mod team,
- Ploeperpengel for Valten the Chosen of Sigmar,
- GarretSidzaka for Sir Loracaz,
- Mix for his Golden Warrior,
- Ploeperpengel for his Cyclops,
- White Rabbit for his wizards,
- To Tal without whom I'd never have gotten started or gotten anything done, thank you.
- and many others.

Please observe. That I am developing this modmod as an alpha version, beta version and a main first version 1.0. Those will pop up in the posts below this one. The first versions will be modular mods (please look at the modular mod thread for installation instructions), while version 1.0 will be extremly easy to install and perhaps even included in Fall Further.

Here are instructions for using a modular mod. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=264417.

I will make every effort to make this available to everyone, and everyone that tries it out is a joy and a blessing. Thank you. :)

FORGET ABOUT THIS ONE; GO USE THE BETA VERSION BELOW: ONE EASY COPY AND PAsTE TO INSTALL!!!

Jotnar Alpha - Modular mod only.

Ready to download!!! :goodjob:

Works together with Fall Further 033

Inside tip:
- Pls give suggestions on how to fix the culture area map and keep something similar - or more beautiful flag.
- Check out the city names and think a little. :)
- Remember that all cities can only use the first tier.

IMPORTANT:

You need to make a few small Python changes manually.

(1) To make all Jotnar cities start with the 'Staedding' building
File: CvEventManager.py
Method: onCityBuilt
Code:
if pPlayer.getLeaderType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('LEADER_JO1'):
city.setNumRealBuilding(gc.getInfoTypeForString('B UILDING_JOT_STAEDDING'), 1)

(2) To make all -conqured- Jotnar cities start with the 'Staedding' building
File: CvEventManager.py
Method: onCityAcquiredAndKept
Code:
pPlayer = gc.getPlayer(pCity.getOwner())
if pPlayer.getLeaderType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('LEADER_JO1'):
pCity.setNumRealBuilding(gc.getInfoTypeForString(' BUILDING_JOT_STAEDDING'), 1)


Please give feedback, what needs to be changed? What could be changed? What is good, what is bad?

Jotnar BETA

Ready to download!!! Just copy and paste the folder. :goodjob:

Developed for Fall Further 040B on Fall from Heaven 2 032L. Tested with latest patches.

1. Copy the unzipped content of the folder (The zip file just below called Jotnar BETA copy-paste folder.zip) into your main mod folder and overwrite those files that are conflicting, it is most likely called:
/Program Files/Firaxis Games/Sid Meiers Civilization 4/Beyond the Sword/Mods/Fall Further/

2. Run the mod. Make sure to read about the civilization Jotnar in the Civilopedia.

3. Give me feedback on the forum.. ;)

OBSERVE: This is still a modular mod, it might not work on Vista or 64 based OS. Also if you have named your main gamefolder something else then
/Fall Further/ then you have to start the game once. Then open up your .ini file (with the same name as the mod folder) and change Modular loading to 1.

Changes since ALPHA:
- Countless bugs and flaws, including those mentioned in threads by our brave testers have been fixed.
- City graphics have been handled.
- Everything now downloadable, and pastable in one file. Adding Jotnar onto Fall from Heaven or Fall Further
is now a single step action.
- Jotnar cannot have any other Goverment civic except 'Traditions', which is a Jotnar-only civic.
- Jotnar do not have, and mostly will not have a world spell. But they have a unique wonder, the great wall.
That works similar to the one of vanilla civ.
- Jotnar have a habit of building things large-scale, therefore their windmills and watermills are rather amazing constructs.
Also observe that Jotnar cannot research Machinery.
- Jotnar Units are not built, a Jotnar base unit is spawned randomly with an average of once every twenty turns and with a maximum of two per staedding. Modified by Armageddon counter. This base unit can be upgraded similar to Grigori's adventurers to various Jotnar units. Notable is that Cyclop units are a dead-end and that Sea Serpents and Giant Tortoises still are buildable as per normal. Take very good care of your units, and build House of Ancestor early. A Jotnar base unit spawned in a city with House of the Ancestors gain the promotion Spirit Guide.

Civilopedia:
Jotnar are the giant kin, an assortment of races that is held together by a common ancestry and traditions. They live centred around small family groups called 'Steaddings' or 'Homestaeds', not seldom attracting some odd kin to their dwellings. Hill giants, Trolls, Fiery giants, Tritons of the sea .. even the mightiest of them - the Titans - might fall in under their banners once they unraveled the mystery of immortality. Tightly held together, slow to bear offspring and to come to action, their pure size make them a force to be considered.

STRATEGY: Cities will only use the first grid around it, instaed of two. This greatly influence the placement of cities. They can also never grow bigger then size ten, so aim for many small cities. The Goverment Civic 'Traditions' aid in this by reducing the maintnance cost for number of cities, the giant-kin are however so set in their ways that they cannot change their goverment civic - costing you some flexibility. Jotnar units are not built, they are born (exceptions are workers, settlers, thrall militia and some naval units). A rare and slow breed you are dependant on the emergence of new Jotnar Children and Adults, the citizens can then be upgraded into most units you need. Even settlers. And Jotnar Citizens can work the fields and break new roads while waiting to put them in use. They also slowly gains experience, so their time as Citizens are not wasted. The Jotnar can build a unique wonder after discovery of Code of Laws and Masonry that is called the Wall of the Covenant, and which holds the Barbarians at bay. A very useful wonder on maps with large landmass and active/agressive barbarians. To make sure that your units are not wasted (since you cannot massproduce them like other civilizations) build House of the Ancestors early in all cities, it gives your units the Spirit Guide promotion which gives some experience back to your other units when a unit dies.

RELIGION: Jotnar have a preference for Runes of Kilmorph, however they can function well with any other faith. Their Paladins and Eidolons are of 'Jotnar' size. Extra gold is however important, so make sure to aquire some extra commerse if you choose some religion aside from RoK.

WAR: While Jotnar often cannot produce a massive amount of units in a short time, often hindered by an average of 1 units each twenty turns even with an unlimited supply of gold, they -are- giants. Many of Jotnar units are a little stronger then their normal counterparts, they ignore terrain and can often cross even mountains that allow them to attack from unexpected directions. They also do not need bring siege-machines, because each giant in himself can tear down a wall or two. Even the Jotnar Workers can bombard cities. For the devious one, Jotnar have the Hill Giants, whom can be mass produced with Hidden Nationality, often making it hard for even other players to determine if they are your units or are the real thing. Beware of recon units however, since the Hill Giants are considered animal units and some recon units have a high bonus in combat, and can even subdue your giants in service of another.

Jotnar v 1.0 - reserved. Most likely adapted to the latest version of Fall Further. No more modular mod will be supported.

NOW IT IS HERE!! JOTNAR 1.0 (almost). :p

For Fall Further 043 patch F (which might still not work on Vista).

Instruction:
Download the file, and copy/replace its content (the asset folder) into your Fall Further 043 folder. Then go play.

Comments:
This is not the truly complete version, it lacks events, it lacks some spells for Tritons and Cyclops and a few more tweaks. However I really hope I can get some feedback on this one. And since it was put together in a brutal 5 hour crunch .. I have tested it .. but might have missed things.

Changes since beta:
Besides from all things I havn't written down..

- Spawning of Jotnar Citizens are modified in such a way that less and less Jotnar spawned as the Armageddon counter
rises, while more citizens per city are allowed. The giant race gives birth to less and less children.

- Jotnar cannot build City of a thousand slums wonder.

- Culture boost of +50 now working when Jotnar cities -should- grow from 10 --> 11. Jotnar cities are limited to max 10 in size.

- Jotnar now have access to a buildable melee class, Orc Conscripts when armageddon counter reaches 30+. Similar to Axemen yet a little cheaper and
causes no war unhappiness by dying.

- Egrass the Jotnar national hero is reduced to being a 2/6 --> 2/4 at the beginning of the game.

- The Sea-giant, Triton, now have subdue animals and subdue beasts to capture the creatures of the sea.

- All Jotnar units that truly are giants, now carry the promotion 'Giantkin'.

- Seriously turned down the rate of spawned giant citizens (special units that can be upgraded to various units OBS Jotnar cannot build most
units -only- promote them from the jotnar citizens), starting with a 3% per city and turn, and the chance diving steeply downwards as the armageddon
counter rises. A real incitament for Jotnar players to keep down the armageddon counter.

- Jotnar Giant units now age 50/seasoned 100/renowned 200/prominent 300/legendary and increases in strength & defence, the damage from the spellcasters also increase
in potency. Giantkin promotion required.

- New Jotnar Thrall unit graphics, Fixed/Changed Jotnar Berserkers, Archmages and Sea-giants.

- Added two new Leaders, one older Jotnar with more warlike features 'Father Kasghenal' (Financial, Aggressive) and a evil Troll half-breed 'Uxol' (Barbarian,
Arcane, Raiders). Mother Enningas has become Good Alignment - so the Jotnar now have a Good, a Neutral and an Evil leader.

- Nerfed the Jotnar max city size to 8 instaed of 10 and the Jotnar Staedding maintnance modifier to -10%.

- The Father is only Financial/Agressive

- Blocked Archers and all Religious Units except Druid.

- UU Mouth of divine unit, that can spread all religions and is never lost, but have a 6 turn wait on religion spread.

Not certain when I'll give it a try, but downloaded!

Just downloaded the modmod - really nice.

Pasted the code for the Staedding building and somehow spaces got in - so starting over play testing :) So far no option for Lucian or weird birthrates came about again.

Fun to see some Alpha testers :)

If you notice some grave oddities, let me know and i'll compensate.

It's been a fun game - a lot of reloads in the very beginning because of Thrall Militia's deaths from almost everything that walks the Erebus :)

So far - (turn 468) - they are strong and can hold their own. However they can build the heroes for both Chislev and Dural.

Not sure if it's intended - but both captured Hill Giants and ones from the Pact wonder cannot be upgraded to Wielders of Arms - seems there are two kinds of Hill Giants. Since the Pact ones are usually pretty highly promoted by that time it would be nice to be able to upgrade them.

Do Speakers mature over time or do they need to gain experience from combat only?

It's been a fun game - a lot of reloads in the very beginning because of Thrall Militia's deaths from almost everything that walks the Erebus :)

So far - (turn 468) - they are strong and can hold their own. However they can build the heroes for both Chislev and Dural.

Not sure if it's intended - but both captured Hill Giants and ones from the Pact wonder cannot be upgraded to Wielders of Arms - seems there are two kinds of Hill Giants. Since the Pact ones are usually pretty highly promoted by that time it would be nice to be able to upgrade them.

Do Speakers mature over time or do they need to gain experience from combat only?

Thrall Militia is intended smallish units for defence only, with +50% city defence etc. You have 4/3 units buildable from turn 1 if you are willing to gamble. But the Militia are tiny little fellows aren't they?

Woa.. Chislev and Dural heroes? Interesting. I have no clue why that happen but it needs to be corrected. Possibly have to set them to NONE in the civinfo xml file. Note to self, FIX THAT. DONE.

I am not sure how to fix the upgrade thing. It is possible that I'd have to do that in Python, and make sure you get the Jotnar kind of Hillgiants and not the normal kind both at capture and with the wonder. There are two kind of Hillgiants for a reason. :) Note to self. EXAMINE THIS FOR V1.0.

Speakers and High Speakers are supposed to gain experience as a spellcaster with the appropriate level of Channeling, but 80% slower. Does that have the consequense that it seems like they in practice never gains xp? Note to self. ADJUST XP GAIN RATE. DONE

Thank you for the feedback.

How did you come up with the name Jotnar? What is the background lore on your new civ?

Woa.. Chislev and Dural heroes? Interesting. I have no clue why that happen but it needs to be corrected. Possibly have to set them to NONE in the civinfo xml file.

Those might be the heroes I missed in the civinfo file, too. :)


I am not sure how to fix the upgrade thing. It is possible that I'd have to do that in Python, and make sure you get the Jotnar kind of Hillgiants and not the normal kind both at capture and with the wonder.

I think this would work and is XML-only: Make all kinds of Hill Giants upgradeable, but have the upgraded unit require "Traditions" in addition to its main tech.

I played a very, very short game (stopped because of a storm, not a bug). I like the hero quite a bit, and do like the civ's crowned flag.

I noticed the flag on the pedia "civilizations" page is a bit off and looks a lot like another civ's flag... :)

Hmm, Arctic Circle, one word of advice, I hope you won't mind. Don't leave any python changes to us players/testers. Try to make a playable download ready, imho that way you'll get much more testers.

Turn 612 and counting. I am able to build Kahd at Strength of Will, I am also shown an option to build Wyvern Guardian, but since there are no monasteries for them they are grayed out.

A suggestion - maybe Mage units could be Skald instead of Speaker. Would remove confusion from the Religious Speaker, and and Vala (literary for Volva) for High Speaker. Would kind of fit in line with Matriarchal society. What do you think?

Archmage units can be build instead of upgraded - intended?

Cosmetic: House of the anscestors probably should be "House of The Ancestors"
Cosmetic Art: Tritons fortify a bit weirdly with the Axe floating above their heads.

Will have more :)

How did you come up with the name Jotnar? What is the background lore on your new civ?

The short answer would be:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B6tunn

However the Jotnar are not flesh-eating barbarians, they are a loyal and peaceful people with strong traditions and a sort of communal memory that stretches all the way back to their ancestors. The mother and father of all giant kin. They live in small family groups where a single family dominates one town, or Staedding. I am also trying to make some consideration to D&D lore, whom Fall From Heaven originated from.

I will get to answering all other questions, as well as write up a more solid piece of background 'in-game' to read. Note to self, write more CIVIPEDIA for the Jotnar civilization for Beta.

Hmm, Arctic Circle, one word of advice, I hope you won't mind. Don't leave any python changes to us players/testers. Try to make a playable download ready, imho that way you'll get much more testers.

It would require one download for you that uses Fall From Heaven vanilla, and one for you that uses Fall Further. I will do that for Beta. Note to self, have one working download for Beta!

Turn 612 and counting. I am able to build Kahd at Strength of Will, I am also shown an option to build Wyvern Guardian, but since there are no monasteries for them they are grayed out.

A suggestion - maybe Mage units could be Skald instead of Speaker. Would remove confusion from the Religious Speaker, and and Vala (literary for Volva) for High Speaker. Would kind of fit in line with Matriarchal society. What do you think?

Archmage units can be build instead of upgraded - intended?

Cosmetic: House of the anscestors probably should be "House of The Ancestors"
Cosmetic Art: Tritons fortify a bit weirdly with the Axe floating above their heads.

Will have more :)

Note to self, block the Wyvern Guardian and Kahd units! DONE.

Note to self, rename the speakers to those very suitable names! DONE

Note to self, archmage should not be buildable!

Note to self, rename House of ancestors building! DONE

Note to self, examine the Triton art!

Thank you very much ;)

Note to self, add cityname Ingvarstaed to city list. DONE.

Posted again below. Sorry.

An attempt at answering you. Thanks for the feedback, do not hesitate to come with suggestions. I will not hesitate in using those I like and discarding the one's I don't.


One of the little guys felt adventurous enough to go into Lairs, meanwhile Homestaed was building the Father.

The Father?

Exploration is a must, but is rather tricky. I haven't figured out the wild troll - built one and it stayed pretty faithful - came to be level 18 or so Troll Elder later. But I was rather cautious to build more - if it turned it would be a vicious barb 4 attack unit near my borders. I got hunting early through a hut, so Troll Hunter (by the way maybe Hunter Troll? - as opposed to to a guy who hunts trolls?).

The Wild Troll have a chance to go berserk, and each such turn there is a % it wil turn barbarian. Using it as a scout you will in any case 'go barbarian' far away from home.

From that point it was building, learning and exploring.

How did you feel the balance worked when it came to total military production, and research?

End game was more of a exploration of units that can be built and building all sorts of things I wasn't supposed to be able to - fun nevertheless. Can't resist building archmages, heroes and dragons (well, wyverns).

And a lot of those are not supposed to be buildable .. :)

- The biggest "bug" I suppose is the ability to build almost all Fall Further other civs heroes and some unique units - I've seen the button for Professor and for Wyvern Guardian in particular.

This will be fixed..

- Graphic bugs - the already mentioned triton's axe floating - and High Speaker's rather weird twisted stance - looks like he's been... well... twisted.

Ditto..

Unit/Building req./upgrade confusion (not sure which are intended and which are not):
- High Speaker can be built directly without upgrading;
- Woodfather is not linked to any building
- Stonewardens can upgrade to Woodfather

Ditto

If it was possible in some way - it would be nice if the player started with Father or could build him right away like a 1 hammer cost, and Mother (settler) - since it's around them the Steads are made, and maybe a early recon animal - or a single Offspring. From that point Giant Offspring can be either built or it would be really interesting addition - spawn if Father is in the Homestaed for a period of turns. Offspring could be 3/3 with 1mv.

Father? Hmm.. confused.

The offspring can then go off to explore and help father to defend the Staed. As offspring gets more experienced they can start specializing - upgrade to worker, to warrior or heavy recon unit - 1mv. Also one could upgrade offspring after a number of turns to a new "Mother" - a new settler. Maybe it's possible to make a distinction of Jotnar Offspring Worker and Jotnar Worker - kids do not work as fast as grown giants.

Would be an interesting mechanic if none of the units of Jotnar other than animals (snakes & turtles) could be built - but rather upgraded from Offspring if they are of the Giant Race, and gained by a building if they are of a different kin - like Kahdi getting Thades - Giants would have the same building to spawn Wild Trolls, and later Hunter Trolls, or Tritons, and so on. So that the player can focus on growing his giants - taking care of each one, building staeds with care - with that approach you could even have an occasional Offspring with Hero spawn.

Each staed then would be a motley crew of one grown giant and some offspring. If a grown giant is in the staed (have no clue if it's possible to check with xml) for more than 10-20 turns - offspring shows up. Offspring will need to sit for a while - gaining free xp enough for movement or forest or hills and basic combat - until 10/17xp and then they are a true Giant - but with no specialization - like Grigori adventurers - they can be upgraded for some gold to reflect education to become Skalds, Hill Dwellers, Workers or Settlers. If this whole mechanic is possible Settlers can be a random 1/5 chance spawned instead of offspring. Once you get hunting or some other tech relating to meeting other kin - you then could make a building "Kin Fire" - that would spawn on some criteria all the other wild critters - that can be upgraded as techs go higher. Spawning would have to be rare - to reflect the standoffishness of Giant kin.


I'll keep it in mind and discuss it with my Wife.

You can tell that I am not too thrilled with Thralls :) Maybe they too have place somewhere - but more as multipurpose weakling unit - it could work, but slow, it could defend but not a lot, it could scout but not too far - unlike hardy man of Erebus - they are well protected by Giants and so are less adaptive. Maybe Giants can use the Slave mechanic but get a chance Thrall instead and they could be coming through the Kin Fire?

I think they'll stay the way they are :)

I would give all water units a cargo space of at the most 2. Can you imagine Four Giants riding a Triton? Two is enough for a new staed - a settler and a protector that would grow a family.

Agreed

Hidden Nationality promo is really nice for harrassing neighbors - but it also is tough when AI is going in heaps for your one and only protection. Maybe give them a choice to "Go Wild" - a spell that would add HN and Crazed promo - it would be a gamble - you could get experience and get adventures, and move faster, but you could also loose the unit.

Capturing Hill Giants is another intersting thing to look at - maybe have a spell that would only work on Hill Giants - Father could go up to one and have a chance of persuading him to join the civilized life of Staed. That could also be useful if "Go Wild" is there - there's always some chance of getting that wild Giant back. Same could apply for Sea Snakes and Giant Turtles - if they come to the shore Father could get them.

Can't you just click the ability that removes hidden nationality if/when its a problem?

Not quite sure how to go about it all - but it sure was fun thinking it up. I hope you do not mind :)

Absolutly not

Oh, and by far the two best units in the civ are The Father and Troll Elder - got quite attached to those two :)

Are we still talking about the Woodfather? :)



Note to self, remove all non-jotnar units from the jotnar...DONE

Note to self, woodfather should require grove. DONE

Note to self, re-evaluate graphics for Troll and High-speaker.

Note to self, reduce all sea-units to cargo 2. DONE.

I am all sorts of new to the forum :) It just so happens that your thread is the one with my mess - my apologies.

Updated version of the text - didn't let me edit the other one for some reason - maybe there's a limit on editing a message.

Hopefully will explain more:

Game ramblings in the spoiler.

My first game with giants is almost to a close. I used Creation huge map, raging barbs, living world, wildlands, and 10 or 11 rivals. The Thrall were scouting the nearby area, finding Barbatos in the nearby valley, Hippus and Bannor were the closest neighbors. One of the little guys felt adventurous enough to go into Lairs, meanwhile Homestaed was building the Father. Got lucky on techs from huts and was well ahead in the early game.

Thrall get killed really easily - in cities or outside - animals, warriors - I think only scouts pass them up. But once the Founder is built - around turn 20-30 - things start to get better.

Exploration is a must, but is rather tricky. I haven't figured out the wild troll - built one and it stayed pretty faithful - came to be level 18 or so Troll Elder later. But I was rather cautious to build more - if it turned it would be a vicious barb 4 attack unit near my borders. I got hunting early through a hut, so Troll Hunter (by the way maybe Hunter Troll? - as opposed to to a guy who hunts trolls?).

The first war started with Bannor, with three staeds in existance. Thankfully they only had access to one others were protected by mountains - moved Father there and he helped out until Homestaed built the Pact wonder. From that point it was building, learning and exploring.

The whole south side of the map got conquered by barbs with Orthus - Elohim, Illians, and on and on. Bannor got split in two with Minister Kuon, and then original Bannor conquered by Hippus. Kuriotites wiped out the clown folk. So it was Kuriotites, Hippus, Minister Kuon and Giants for pretty much all the game. By the time I got south there were animals and barb Champions running the show.

Mid-game was helped amazingly by the Thousand Slums wonder in the capital - i had one GE standing by for a wonder just in case and that fit the bill just right - large cross for home city makes for rapid advancement.

End game was more of a exploration of units that can be built and building all sorts of things I wasn't supposed to be able to - fun nevertheless. Can't resist building archmages, heroes and dragons (well, wyverns).


- The biggest "bug" I suppose is the ability to build almost all Fall Further other civs heroes and some unique units - I've seen the button for Professor and for Wyvern Guardian in particular.

- Graphic bugs - the already mentioned triton's axe floating - and High Speaker's rather weird twisted stance - looks like he's been... well... twisted.

Unit/Building req./upgrade confusion (not sure which are intended and which are not):
- High Speaker can be built directly without upgrading;
- Woodfather is not linked to any building
- Stonewardens can upgrade to Woodfather

Speakers are a bit weak by the time they show up to gain xp by combat, and almost do not get XP by sitting there.

Ideas and crazy rambling below:


Basically, I viewed the Jotnar as growing of Giants, as they grow they attract other kinds for protection and profit.

If it was possible in some way - it would be nice if the player started with Founder, Mother (a Settler) and Offspring, Mother stays in the staed since it's around them the Steads are made. From that point Giant Offspring can be either built or it would be really interesting addition - spawn if the Founder or a grown giant is in the Homestaed for a period of turns - probably rather long - 10-20 turns if not longer. Offspring could be 2/3 with 1mv.

The offspring can then go off to explore and help Founder/grown Giant to defend the Staed. As offspring gets more experienced they can start specializing - upgrade to Jotnar Worker, Hill Dweller (Hill Giant), Skald or Settler. You could also give random promos to offspring - like arcane, mobility - just one to show what younglings are good at - it would make the player think more about what to upgrade the Offspring to. I think Thades do that already. So you could borrow that mechanic - the tricky part would be to make sure that the grown Giant stays in Staed to grow Offspring.

Other units could be gained by a building if they are of a different kin - like Kahdi getting Thades - Giants would have the same building to spawn Wild Trolls, and later Hunter Trolls, or Tritons, and so on. So that the player can focus on growing his giants - taking care of each one, building staeds with care - with that approach you could even have an occasional Offspring with Hero spawn.

Each staed then would be a motley crew of one grown giant and some offspring. If a grown giant is in the staed (have no clue if it's possible to check with xml) for more than 10-20 turns - offspring shows up. Offspring will need to sit for a while - gaining free xp enough for movement or forest or hills and basic combat - until 10/17xp and then they are a true Giant - but with no specialization - like Grigori adventurers - they can be upgraded for some gold to reflect education to become Skalds, Hill Dwellers, Workers or Settlers. If this whole mechanic is possible Settlers can be a random 1/5 chance spawned instead of offspring. Once you get hunting or some other tech relating to meeting other kin - you then could make a building "Kin Fire" - that would spawn on some criteria all the other wild critters - that can be upgraded as techs go higher. Spawning would have to be rare - to reflect the standoffishness of Giant kin.

You can tell that I am not too thrilled with Thralls :) Maybe they too have place somewhere - but more as multipurpose weakling unit - it could work, but slow, it could defend but not a lot, it could scout but not too far - unlike hardy man of Erebus - they are well protected by Giants and so are less adaptive. Maybe Giants can use the Slave mechanic but get a chance Thrall instead and they could be coming through the Kin Fire?

I would give all water units a cargo space of at the most 2. Can you imagine Four Giants riding a Triton? Two is enough for a new staed - a settler and a protector that would grow a family. Also, "Go Wild" spell would be good - rather then be a target for every AI - have it more of a choice.

Hidden Nationality promo is really nice for harrassing neighbors - but it also is tough when AI is going in heaps for your one and only protection. Maybe give them a choice to "Go Wild" - a spell that would add HN and Crazed promo - it would be a gamble - you could get experience and get adventures, and move faster, but you could also loose the unit.

Capturing Hill Giants is another intersting thing to look at - maybe have a spell that would only work on Hill Giants - Founder could go up to one and have a chance of persuading him to join the civilized life of Staed. That could also be useful if "Go Wild" is there - there's always some chance of getting that wild Giant back. Same could apply for Sea Snakes and Giant Turtles - if they come to the shore Founder could get them.

Arcane units - in Norse cultural history - the little that I know of it - most magicians were women, with exceptions of Skalds(bards) and shamans - which were rarer but there. Most gifted Volva were women and no decision was made without consulting them. So maybe higher up arcane units are distinctly women, and Skalds (mages/shamans) can be with a graphic where you cannot determine who they are - upgradable to either Woodfather or Vala.

Mounted - not needed as you can get plenty of elephants.

Archery/Siege - replaced by bombardment of cities. Would be cool to have something along the lines of stone throwing at units - a ranged attack if you have marble resource.

I just went back and read the original thread - I see that you were thinking along the same lines on younglings.

Not quite sure how to go about it all - but it sure was fun thinking it up. I hope you do not mind :)


Oh, and by far the two best units in the civ are Egrass The Founder and Troll Elder - got quite attached to those two - they look great and perform well:)

Thanks for great time playing :)

The Father = Egrass the Founder - kind of associated him with the Father of all Giants (Ymir and that whole bit).

Wild Troll - was scary a bit, I try not to save/reload too much, but seemed like a lot of risk in the very beginning. But it does make sense lore-wise.

Research - slow in the beginning - really made a lot of use of getting techs from Graveyards and villages - touch and go, most games end that way from a monster. Once I had three staedings it was comparable to other civs I played before. A lot difference made with City of the Thousand Slums - really liked it. Maybe make the capital normal cross, and the rest thin cross to adjust for early game growth.

Production - pretty fast. Units take a while to build - but they are worth it.

Hidden Nationality - yes, one could just click it off - but then it won't come back :) I see it more of a flavor wise suggustion - young Giants running off without listening to their elders - attacking left and right, they gain experience, but can get into trouble. It would be nice though to do it by choice - so you can choose how you raise "your young".

are there any screenshots of this?

The Father = Egrass the Founder - kind of associated him with the Father of all Giants (Ymir and that whole bit).

The Father is quite different from Egrass, and well.

Egrass the Founder - One of the first Jotnar to truly build them as a civilization, builder of the first staedding.

The Father - The first Giant, father of all Giant Kin. (Ymir) He might show up as an late Armageddon event if I have the time, and feel like implementing it. Like 'Father Time' whom blows the horn at the end of days. Giving the giants an edge in real late gameplay, since they will be lacking those 30-40 sized cities..

Father XXXX - A giant leader, whom gets the honorific 'Father', the same way that the current Jotnar leader is 'Mother Enningas'. She is not the first female giant.

are there any screenshots of this?

You can find several in this thread:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=275026

And I can make sure to make some when I test things, perhaps Ingvar can take a few screenshots of his current game?

I have noticed the 'Staedding' that exists on the map with Fall Further :)

Wonder if I can rip of that graphic and put into towns, or are the staedding building good enough?

Two screenshots

For city sets, maybe you can adopt the fort graphics - growing into citadel graphic of Giant Staedding after a certain number of population? Would fit with the flavor of them. Right now they do look a bit funny with Giant Wielder of Arms standing on almost an empty space.

How about this for the pedia entry for Jotnar:

Jotnar Civilization

In the Age of Dragons gods have forged themselves weapons from flesh and elements around them. Giants were second only to the Dragons then, but times have changed and forgotten by gods they took to wandering Erebus, ferocious and solitary threats to lone bands of travelers. Hunted by Patrians they have retreated to the farthest reaches of the world. When the Age of Ice came, some of their kin were used again - the fabled Frost Giants roaming the frozen world inspiring terror in the hearts of hardy man, the others survived the Winter well - with thick skin and fully adapted to the wilderness they fared better then humans. When the spring came again, most giants kept on their feral lives, but there was one among them, who scried the future of his race. He saw them hunted down again by humans, elves, and dwarves - growing in numbers those races would take more space in the thawed world and eventually would be able to overtake even a might roaming giant in his hills. He then set out to build the first Staedding of Jotnar - to raise his younglings in peace, to study arts and crafts and to build a society that could withstand the tides of the new age. From that day forth he was called Egrass the Founder.

Feel free to use any text in Pedia entries and use any of the ideas here:


Giant Units

It would be really interesting to see giants grow, rather than being built, I think the possibility for it exists within the game mechanic. They would make a builders civ - small cities, growing units, building buildings and research. Birth can be emulated with conditional spawning - I'll try to look through XML/python and see how it is done for other civs. Growth can be emulated with XP growth (like workers in FF), so that Younglings are really slow work-rate workers, but once upgraded they change unit class and evolve according to different rules later.

Instead of saying spawn - you could say "Rejoice! The news of a youngling born in <staedding> has reached us."

Egrass the Founder - the giant protector and worker, while the Homestaed is being built and offspring are growing, he works tirelessly to improve the lot of his kin.

Hearthmother (2/4/4 - visibility range) - it was the women of Jotnar that took to Egrass's ideas best, who raised the new generation of Giants with need to build, explore and learn. While Giant men built and warred their women ran their staeddings, and soon no decision of importance was taken without Hearthmother's consent. (The unit could have improved vision - all starting with a first settler bonus - to show their ability to scry the futures)

Youngling (1/3/1 - sentry) - the children of the giants are rare, but only the most remote staeddings in harshest lands hear not the Youngling's voices. Not built but spawned by the "Jotnar Staedding" building if the staedding has a grown Giant in it for more then 20 turns. They are spawned with a single random promotion to show what their inclinations are (Hero, Arcane, Mobility, Forest, Hills, Combat I, Marksmen, etc) The more specialized ones should be pretty rare. Younglings should really stay with their staedding until they have grown. That can be achieved with a removable Heavy promotion. They can age with XP - as soon as they are 10 or 17 xp level they can be upgraded based on the techs and buildings available. The options would be Skald, Hill Dweller, Worker, and Hearthmother.

Hill Dweller (7/7/1 - sentry) (axeman replacement) - the civilized counterpart of their wild kin Hill Giants, these are the people of Jotnar, protectors of staeddings and fathers of younglings. They are prone however to the call of the wild. When the freedom of the hills calls them with the ancient fury of gods battlefields they gain a a crazed and hidden nationality promotions. (Can be achieved through a spell, or maybe just a random possibility like werewolves and lunatics).

Jotnar Worker (2/4/2) - while most giants choose to leave their home staedding to build their own, some choose to remain with their family and become workers, they build routes between staeddings and create improvements - highly praised and respected they follow in Egrass's footsteps.

Skald (6/6/3 - sentry, channeling two, medic, channelling I, (nature I, earth I, fire one, mind I - something to reflect the basics) - both men and women of Giant kin are skilled in the arts, Skalds are shamans, poets and healers - they travel from staedding to staedding learning the lore in their travels, providing vital news to their kin and are welcomed by all for their many stories. They learn slower then their human counterparts, but can gain experience in combat. The graphic probably should be gender unspecific - like a enlarged Mage - covered in cloak - maybe other mods have something like that - I'll look.

Wielder of Arms (11/11/1 - sentry) - These formidable opponents are giants that were forged in the new times of war, they are provided with armor and mace and protect the border towns and wage war for Jotnar. Any Hill Dweller can answer the call and become the Wielder of Arms. (Perhaps they should be unbuildable - but upgraded from level 3 Hill Dweller, or upgraded from Hill Dweller with a building present (Armory or something like that).

Vala (5/10/1 - sentry, channeling III, enchantment 1, law 2 - upgraded from level 6 Skald) - Vala are the wisest women of Jotnar, they scry the fates of their people and decide when they go to war or settle in peace, they practice magic lore and while their weapons are wands and not spears - they are formidable defenders. They can also call the Jotnar man to battle - inspiring valor and loyalty and enchanting their weapons.

Woodfather (10/10/2) - The Jotnar druid.

Titan - giants do not grow much in human eyes - big is big, but when centuries pass, the wisest and strongest become immortal Titans, those who hold the world on their shoulders.

The Kin Units
The Kin Units would be all the other creatures and giant related units - rather then being built, I think they can be gained like Sheaim or Kahdi mechanic. You have to have "Kin Fire" building in the staedding and then replace buildings that usually give those units to other civs with flavored ones. For example Wild Trolls just need Kin Fire to spawn, Hunting Lodge and Kin Fire let you get Hunter Troll and upgrade your Wild Trolls to Hunter Trolls, Kin Fire & Lighthouse would give you Sea Serpents & Turtles, Kin Fire and Harbor - Triton, Cyclops - Kin Fire and Grove - making rangers appear later in game - or maybe there's a way to associate spawn with technology.

Instead of saying spawned you could say: "A <unit> has been attracted to the Kin Fire in <staedding>."

Wild Troll (4/3/2 - crazed, hidden nationality)
Hunter Troll
Troll Elder (cannot be spawned needs to be upgraded from lvl 6 Hunter Troll)
Cyclops
Sea Serpent
Sea Turtle
Triton

Not quite sure :) :
Jotnar Berserker, T4 units in general. Seems like their T3 units are pretty powerful, and if you give them ability to get random promo at birth including a rare hero - they might be up to task to fight with human opponents without excessive T4 ranks, or you could get them through the Kin mechanic.

Would be cool to see "Drakes" as air unit for giants. Their castles are big, Jotnar are big - Drakes are like hawks to them. And my desire to have flying lizards of some sort would be satisfied :D Maybe along the lines of Rock Ravens of Chislev, but with ability to walk 1, like a 5/5/1 flying, and fireball tossing miniature dragon.

Race - maybe add race "Giant" - and give it to Giant Jotnar units. It might be possible to pass on the race promotion with upgrade - make Hill Giants upgradable to Hill Dwellers. That would allow them to be fortified, since beasts cannot be fortified. Also might make it easier to work with unique spells and events.

Unique Spells

Staedding Call - a domination type spell - 25% chance of converting a Hill Giant. Should be available to Egrass, Vala, Woodfather and maybe Hearthmother. The learned and strong Jotnar can seek out on their own risk their wild counterparts and get them to join the civilization. It would make a lot of fun and a game of chance if Hearthmother goes on her own to found a steading and can get herself a man by calling to him.

Game Mechanics
Mainly I thought that conversion between Hill Dwellers and Hill Giants can be more pronounced. Captured Hill Giants can stay as they are, or be upgraded to Hill Dwellers. When they are Hill Giants they are savage beasts and can attack anyone, and possibly be crazed with a chance to turn wild. When they are Hill Dwellers they lose hidden nationality and gain Giant race, but have a chance to become Hill Giants with all the effects of it - HN & Crazed. Shouldn't be too high of a chance of it happening - maybe 5% chance each turn for Hill Dweller to become Hill Giant.

Armageddon Hero - I really like the idea of waking up Ymir when the counter is high up - say if it's over 70, Jotnar can build a really costly huge giant to protect them.

Feel free to use any text in Pedia entries and use any of the ideas here.

A lot of great stuff. I do agree with you on the 'growing' and 'spawning of kin units'. I like it. I do not agree on quite a few things about the units, but all good ideas.

However, before becoming even more fancy I want a stable version that can be implemented into Fall Further. Just working out the most obvious flaws will take the next three weeks, because as mentioned - this isn't exactly my highest priority right now.

I do see a future where we have some form of 'growing giants'. Where some kind of spawning effect, and perhaps even recourse's can be tied into Sea Serpents and Giant Tortoises.

I really like a spell that converts barbarian Hill Giants. And perhaps also Wild Trolls that gone 'native'.

I was reading through the Modders FAQ in the main thread - and I think I came up with a way of how to create Younglings!


Please pardon, as I use the names and titles that are not in the mod, just easier for imagination to flow - no insistence on use meant.

So. Jotnar men - Hill Dwellers, Wielders of Arms, etc would have a unique spell - "Raise Young", the spell would function the same way "Hope" and "Inspiration" work - they create a temporary building in the city. The building - let's call it "Jotnar Crib" will then function like the Planar Gate - it would have a low chance of spawning a Youngling/Offspring.



I haven't done any XML or python code - but this is so interesting at this point that I think I'll dabble in it and see if I can make this work. Then if you're interested you could add it to the mod. I'll leave it up to you :)

I was reading through the Modders FAQ in the main thread - and I think I came up with a way of how to create Younglings!


Please pardon, as I use the names and titles that are not in the mod, just easier for imagination to flow - no insistence on use meant.

So. Jotnar men - Hill Dwellers, Wielders of Arms, etc would have a unique spell - "Raise Young", the spell would function the same way "Hope" and "Inspiration" work - they create a temporary building in the city. The building - let's call it "Jotnar Crib" will then function like the Planar Gate - it would have a low chance of spawning a Youngling/Offspring.



I haven't done any XML or python code - but this is so interesting at this point that I think I'll dabble in it and see if I can make this work. Then if you're interested you could add it to the mod. I'll leave it up to you :)

I have PM'd you. ;)

And. Hill Giants will keep being called Hill Giants and being virtually identical to the normal Hill Giants. This is a real finesse for Jotnar players in multiplayer games. The same as with Sea Serpent or Giant Tortoise. You can move units or keep an eye on the opponent without him/her being able to be sure 'if' its an barbarian or one of your units.

Sea Serpents and Giant Tortoises can be spawned from a 'spawning pool'. And while I don't like Drakes, one can think about an building called 'Eagles nest' that spawn giant eagles. There are some giant eagle unit with a rider in some other mod.

As I mentioned, the growing part is very appealing. Kind of like the Adept line, you can't build some units, not based on level - but if you have the technology and buildings the existing units will eventually upgrade into a higher-tier version. This fits with the 'Spirit Guide' and the Jotnar concept. It would require some heavy-duty python, and I do not have the time to get into that in the near future.

You could add that to CivilizationInfos to block those other guys.


<!-- Units that should not be buildable by Jotnar -->
<Unit>
<UnitClassType>UNITCLASS_PROFESSOR</UnitClassType>
<UnitType>NONE</UnitType>
</Unit>
<Unit>
<UnitClassType>UNITCLASS_DRAGON_GUARDIAN</UnitClassType>
<UnitType>NONE</UnitType>
</Unit>
<Unit>
<UnitClassType>UNITCLASS_COATLANN</UnitClassType>
<UnitType>NONE</UnitType>
</Unit>
<Unit>
<UnitClassType>UNITCLASS_MIQUIZTLI</UnitClassType>
<UnitType>NONE</UnitType>
</Unit>
<Unit>
<UnitClassType>UNITCLASS_LUCIAN</UnitClassType>
<UnitType>NONE</UnitType>
</Unit>
<Unit>
<UnitClassType>UNITCLASS_KARRLSON</UnitClassType>
<UnitType>NONE</UnitType>
</Unit>
<Unit>
<UnitClassType>UNITCLASS_MESKWAKI</UnitClassType>
<UnitType>NONE</UnitType>
</Unit>
<!-- End units not buildable add -->

The units fixed!

There aren't any installation instructions. I couldn't figure out the directory structure to install it.

Arctic, why do you have people make manual edits to the python? It seems like it's a huge barrier that will scare away the vast majority of potential players.

There aren't any installation instructions. I couldn't figure out the directory structure to install it.

You will need to add it to (FFH2MainMod Folder)\Assets\Modules\ folder
You will also need to edit the file Arctic Circle describes in (FFH2MainMod Folder)\python\, where (FFH2MainMod Folder) is whatever the folder you've installed main Fall From Heaven 2 mod.

Arctic, why do you have people make manual edits to the python? It seems like it's a huge barrier that will scare away the vast majority of potential players.

I think it's mainly because the modmod is in alpha stage :) It's worth the trouble though, at least it was for me.

Arctic, why do you have people make manual edits to the python? It seems like it's a huge barrier that will scare away the vast majority of potential players.

As Ingvar put it, it because it is only alpha.

I will not get into the technicals, but I wanted it to be a modular mod for alpha and beta. It actually makes it easy to install/uninstall. Just one folder to copy/paste. (How to install a modular mod have detailed instructions in the modular mod thread, to which I have provided a link). FOR NOW.

I 100% garantee that version 1.0 that will come out in gods good time will be absurdly easy to install. Hopefully it will even be included in Fall Further.

Everyone that tries out Jotnar is a joy and a blessing. And I will make sure to have a better installation description for the Beta version, and an incredible easy install for v1.0. Please look at the beginning of the thread, where there are three posts 'Alpha', 'Beta' and '1.0'. This is how I handle software development.

Thank you :)

Again, thank you for the feedback. I want everyone interested to be able to try to use it, if you have questions you do not feel like posing here - PM me. Any time, any how, any thing.

Pictures also added on first post.

Both the telepathic lama and Slynn fellow have expressed an intrest in doing some artwork.. ok .. ok .. I asked them ... ok .. OK .. I asked really much.. :)

Anyhow, anyone interested in fiddling with graphics, or want to insert a totally new unit that fits within the Jotnar concept. Feel free to let me know. Both me and my wife will be busy with more code/balance stuff.

Rewards:
Fame in the form of credits and a Jotnar city named after you.. :king:

hehehe im going to start work on the Woodfather guy probably tomorrow
ill post my progress here if your interested.

Finally played a decently-long game. The bad news is I didn't get very far up the tech tree because I was locked in mortal combat with another civ until the elves got pissed and wiped us both out. The good news is that the other civ was the Scions - I was pleased they could actually hold their own. :)

Anyway, I thought the civ worked well.

The Militia strike me as too weak... except that the Founder is around. I had a lot of fun with the Wild Trolls and got some use out of H.N. for the Hill Giants.

I liked the Founder a lot. I thought he balanced out the Militia and was nice for limited offensive operations, too. _Maybe_ too nice. I'd like to see him pick up a "terraforming" spell or two later in the game.

I enjoyed not having adepts - I usually go for them quickly so it made a nice change of pace.

I found myself wishing for troll slave workers, just for flavor. Might be more trouble than they're worth, but maybe troll workers with high work-rates that can just clear forest, mine, and build roads? And sometimes they turn barb. You have capture them to put them back to work. :)

Re: Traditions: Rather than having it be a "must have" civic granting a huge #-of-cities maintenance break you might be able to get away with having the free building, or a common building, give a straight +1 or +2 (depending on the building) gold bonus. Saying it's taxes from the thralls might tie it to the background, but you'd know better than I.

"Enchantment" doesn't strike me as appropriate as a starting mana. OTOH,
1) I don't know much about the background.
and
2) I don't have anything else to suggest I think significantly better.

hehehe im going to start work on the Woodfather guy probably tomorrow
ill post my progress here if your interested.

Absolutly. Use this thread at will. :)

Finally played a decently-long game. The bad news is I didn't get very far up the tech tree because I was locked in mortal combat with another civ until the elves got pissed and wiped us both out. The good news is that the other civ was the Scions - I was pleased they could actually hold their own. :)

Anyway, I thought the civ worked well.

The Militia strike me as too weak... except that the Founder is around. I had a lot of fun with the Wild Trolls and got some use out of H.N. for the Hill Giants.

I liked the Founder a lot. I thought he balanced out the Militia and was nice for limited offensive operations, too. _Maybe_ too nice. I'd like to see him pick up a "terraforming" spell or two later in the game.

I enjoyed not having adepts - I usually go for them quickly so it made a nice change of pace.

I found myself wishing for troll slave workers, just for flavor. Might be more trouble than they're worth, but maybe troll workers with high work-rates that can just clear forest, mine, and build roads? And sometimes they turn barb. You have capture them to put them back to work. :)

Re: Traditions: Rather than having it be a "must have" civic granting a huge #-of-cities maintenance break you might be able to get away with having the free building, or a common building, give a straight +1 or +2 (depending on the building) gold bonus. Saying it's taxes from the thralls might tie it to the background, but you'd know better than I.

"Enchantment" doesn't strike me as appropriate as a starting mana. OTOH,
1) I don't know much about the background.
and
2) I don't have anything else to suggest I think significantly better.

Thank you for the feedback. :)

NOTE to self, consider add Troll worker as per Tal's suggestion. But they wouldn't really 'enslave' trolls - they'd be rather nice about it.

About Traditions. I kind of like it, and it was a real trick to accomplish. Right now I do not remember but there is more to Traditions then just the financial balance. It also reflects the inflexibility that comes with the Jotnar way of life.

About the founder and attacking. He is a 2/5 with hero that can grow into a 4/7 after 70? turns. Even if you raise him pretty quickly, he is not much more an offensive force then say an Grigori hero. But I could set him to a 0/5 to begin with? But that make him weaker attacker then a normal Jotnar worker?

Hmm. If I get a better suggestion on mana I'd absolutly take another. Perhaps Nature? Mind? Two Law mana.. ? :)

Did anyone notice that Jotnar workers can (slightly) bombard cities?

But I could set him to a 0/5 to begin with? But that make him weaker attacker then a normal Jotnar worker?

Maybe 1/5 rather than 2/5. That 1 point of strength would make a big dif. I don't think you should change anything yet, though. It was just one game... Well, actually two: I had a really short game in which I eliminated the Elohim and the Clan. Egrass was instrumental. Wild Trolls and Militia would soften up a city and Egrass would make the kills. But I also started in a superb spot and got very lucky with some huts, so I restarted... and I'm not sure I'd want to risk Egrass so much in most games.


Hmm. If I get a better suggestion on mana I'd absolutly take another. Perhaps Nature? Mind? Two Law mana.. ? :)

Nature could work well... Would "Earth" be trite for the Jotnar? (I really like Law and Spirit, btw.)


Did anyone notice that Jotnar workers can (slightly) bombard cities?

Not me. Ah... just looked at them again: Didn't realize they were giants... but they are awfully tall for thralls. :)

The 0 maintenance cost from a Staedding + HofAncestors + Courthouse seems, well, very low. :)

I love the giant turtles as cargo carriers. I think it'd be neat to have them stay the main cargo-line: Sharply limit # holds on units like the Triton (you could make a Triton-only promotion giving holds only with some experience gain, I think), add turtle upgrades and (hopefully) get some turtle-with-sails graphics for advanced versions.

How about "Subdue Animal" for Tritons? To tame wild turtles/sea serpents. (Also: Should Tritons be getting defensive benefits from terrain?)

Just personal taste, but Jotnar sea units being so interesting, I think emphasizing Jotnar sea-power even more would be cool. Even to the point of making them into another sea-centric civ like the Lanun. Well, probably not as much as the Lanun, but I think FFH2's got room for two such civs. And maybe some background info. showing enmity between the Jotnar and the Overlords?

The 0 maintenance cost from a Staedding + HofAncestors + Courthouse seems, well, very low. :)

Note to self: FIX this, look at the total maintnance decrease. Perhaps remove from HofAncestors. Error.


I love the giant turtles as cargo carriers. I think it'd be neat to have them stay the main cargo-line: Sharply limit # holds on units like the Triton (you could make a Triton-only promotion giving holds only with some experience gain, I think), add turtle upgrades and (hopefully) get some turtle-with-sails graphics for advanced versions.

Note to self. Increase giant turtle cargo limit to 4, remove cargo capacity on sea serpents.

How about "Subdue Animal" for Tritons? To tame wild turtles/sea serpents. (Also: Should Tritons be getting defensive benefits from terrain?)

Wow.. yes absolutly.

Note to self. Subdue animal and Subdue beasts for Tritons, give Tritons a promotion that yields +30 defence at sea and -50% defence on land of varios sorts. Perhaps even ban him from entering deserts.

Just personal taste, but Jotnar sea units being so interesting, I think emphasizing Jotnar sea-power even more would be cool. Even to the point of making them into another sea-centric civ like the Lanun. Well, probably not as much as the Lanun, but I think FFH2's got room for two such civs. And maybe some background info. showing enmity between the Jotnar and the Overlords?

Hmm. Yes and no, I have been toying with the idea of giving Jotnar one UU hero boat. Like the stoneship from the Thomas Covenant books. Even giving the Triton a spell to plant resources like fish or crabs (for a high one-time cost) - it really makes sence. Also Sea Serpent and Triton should have some sort of 'submerged' ability that make them invisible and unable to attack, then they have to go back to the surface to fight again - making them visible.

Note to self. Look over these things for version 1.1

Thank you very much for your feedback. ;)

give Tritons a promotion that yields +30 defence at sea and -50% defence on land of varios sorts. Perhaps even ban him from entering deserts.

I was going to take another look at cost and requirements but the Tritons did strike me as too handy - and fast! - on land. I like what you have above...


Like the stoneship from the Thomas Covenant books.


... and that.


Even giving the Triton a spell to plant resources like fish or crabs (for a high one-time cost)

... and that...


Also Sea Serpent and Triton should have some sort of 'submerged' ability that make them invisible and unable to attack, then they have to go back to the surface to fight again - making them visible.

and for that, though I feel like I'm reverting, I'll say that'd be so cool!

Maybe with Marksman for the sea serpent, so it can rise unexpectedly amidst a convoy and, throwing it's coils over a (relatively) defenseless cargo ship, drag it to the bottom?

I suggest lowering the movement of a submerged unit, and -1 for sea serpents in general. Mostly, I think, because I'm a sub warfare fan and want to try classic u-boat tactics. :) The serpent/turtle speeds do also strike me as high, but I think they make sense if you assume the "wild" versions tend to wander aimlessly and/or simply not exert themselves getting from point a to b.

BTW: I discovered the "Mirror" spell makes a very handy template for units that transform from one state/form to another. You can pass all the promotions and experience back and forth but add or delete some at will, give/take access to spells, and even change the graphics. That might be handy for submersible units.

Wild Trolls and Troll hunters:
I don't think there's any problem with the current set-up, but I like the "wildness" of the Wild Trolls enough to suggest that Troll Hunters keep Enraged/Crazed, but make a promotion with Loyalty's effect available to them with sufficient experience. (Combat 2 or 3?) I can't remember exactly what the pre-req options are: It might require spells with unit reqs. Anyway, this would require and allow them to "earn" greater discipline.

You should look at the code for Wonder as well, specifically the part which changes you into a Baboon. That is a perfect example of how you can easily change the graphical appearance of a unit.

First Tal. Absolutly.

Note to self. Give Sea Serpent Marksman.

Note to self. Revise the way the Wild Trolls are 'wild' for when they are built with spawned Jotnar.

You should look at the code for Wonder as well, specifically the part which changes you into a Baboon. That is a perfect example of how you can easily change the graphical appearance of a unit.

The part that changes you into a baboon? :eek:

Where? What? Do you mean for submerged sea units or for wild/not so wild Wild Trolls?

Not sure precisely where you'd use it. Just spotted you mentioning changing the appearance of units:

BTW: I discovered the "Mirror" spell makes a very handy template for units that transform from one state/form to another. You can pass all the promotions and experience back and forth but add or delete some at will, give/take access to spells, and even change the graphics. That might be handy for submersible units

I suppose you could use it quite easily for the Submerged units so that you have a graphical reminder that you ARE submerged.


Anyway, the code is:

if iRnd == 60:
for iProm in range(gc.getNumPromotionInfos()):
if caster.isHasPromotion(iProm):
if gc.getPromotionInfo(iProm).isRace():
caster.setHasPromotion(iProm, False)
caster.setUnitArtStyleType(gc.getInfoTypeForString ('UNIT_ARTSTYLE_BABOON'))
CyInterface().addMessage(caster.getOwner(),True,25 ,CyTranslator().getText("TXT_KEY_MESSAGE_WONDER_BABOON", ()),'',1,'Art/Interface/Buttons/Units/Margalard.dds',ColorTypes(8),pPlot.getX(),pPlot.ge tY(),True,True)


As you see, it strips any racial promotion from the unit (not required, but useful in this case, so you don't have people wondering why an Orc Baboon looks just like an Elf Baboon). The part which matters for your uses would be:

caster.setUnitArtStyleType(gc.getInfoTypeForString ('UNIT_ARTSTYLE_BABOON'))

Then you just have to define that Artstyle, and ensure that any unit capable of casting the spell is defined for a new appearance option appropriately. If you are using a unique Promotion to indicate the change of state you can probably do it a bit easier using the promotion's innate ability to alter graphics though.

ok, so i still havent even looked at begining work on the woodfather... soon i hope :p sorry :p

From the posts above I gather that the woodfather is now supposed to look like a baboon.

Hey. I've just gone on vacation, strangely enough that means that we have enven less time to work on Jotnar.. ;)

BETA is uploaded.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=6924199#post6924199

To add from a bunch of games. The spawning of Jotnar Citizens can be very random. -very- random. Some games you can have six cities when your other players plants their second, from pure dumb luck (lots of Jotnar Citizens spawned and your Thrall Militia's found a lot of gold when scouting). Other games you can wait until turn 50 before you pop your first Jotnar Citizen.

In average, it seems to work. I am going to think about a more stable way to make this work. The unpredictability however feels quite 'right'.

what if you don't want to play this on fall further?

What would be the easiest way to merge this with the Scions code?

A.C.
I just looked, but didn't spot it: Do you have a "PythonCallbackDefines.xml" somewhere in the module? I don't think FF has the "Cannot use civic" callback on by default.


What would be the easiest way to merge this with the Scions code?

Last time I copied the Jotnar code to the Scions files. The Jotnar stuff isn't as scattered or as lengthy.

In the Jotnar CvEventManager I'm pretty sure the bits you need are at lines

1861-3
1941-4
1987-2018

In the Jotnar CvGameUtils you need

231-9

I can't tonight or tomorrow, but with luck on Sun. or Mon. I'll try a merge myself. Last time it didn't hurt to have the Jotnar code in the python, even if you didn't have the Jotnar module.

Hmm... trying it that way didn't work either. Same problem... I know better than to copy from a specific line to the exact same number line, and made sure to copy to the area in the code that it's supposed to be. The only place I can see where the two codes might interfere is in the CvGameUtils. Came out looking like this, not sure what I'm doing wrong. Never actually done this before though, so I'm not surprised it's not working. :lol:


def cannotDoCivic(self,argsList):
ePlayer = argsList[0]
eCivic = argsList[1]
if eCivic != gc.getInfoTypeForString('CIVIC_TRADITIONS'):
if gc.getPlayer(ePlayer).getCivilizationType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('CIVILIZATION_JOTNAR'):
if gc.getCivicInfo(eCivic).getCivicOptionType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('CIVICOPTION_GOVERNMENT'):
return True
else:
return False
else:
return False
else:
# Scions start
if eCivic == gc.getInfoTypeForString('CIVIC_SLAVERY'):
if gc.getPlayer(ePlayer).getCivilizationType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('CIVILIZATION_SCIONS'):
return True
if eCivic == gc.getInfoTypeForString('CIVIC_CONQUEST'):
if gc.getPlayer(ePlayer).getCivilizationType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('CIVILIZATION_SCIONS'):
return True
# scions end

return False


Edit: Turns out all I had to do was indent the Scions code.. Thank you Odalrick for pointing it out. :D

Edit 2: Damn. Didn't realize you disallowed the AI from playing the Jotnar..... there go my dreams of Undead/Giant alliances. :D

what if you don't want to play this on fall further?

I might make a stand-alone version for Fall From Heaven with 1.0. I am going to take a break from this project for a few weeks, but my focus afterwards will be balance, unit tweaking (for example sea serpent and triton) and cranking up the graphics a notch. A quantum.

I just looked, but didn't spot it: Do you have a "PythonCallbackDefines.xml" somewhere in the module? I don't think FF has the "Cannot use civic" callback on by default.

F**K :mad:

Yes. My blunder. I'll make a new one.

I'll try a merge myself. Last time it didn't hurt to have the Jotnar code in the python, even if you didn't have the Jotnar module.

If you make it work, I'm smiling widly. And go post it for others to use if you want to. I'm sure a few would like to use both Scions and Jotnar. If you'd like, and I know you've said that Scions are 'more or less done'. I can use your merged version as a foundation to make Jotnar 1.0.

Damn. Didn't realize you disallowed the AI from playing the Jotnar..... there go my dreams of Undead/Giant alliances.

Its just for now. If you want to, its very easy to change. But I wanted to release it with no AI as default for two reasons.

1. I havn't tested it with Jotnar run by AI.
2. If you want to try Jotnar you can just install it ontop of Fall Further, and if you don't like it you just avoid choosing them as a race. They will never pop up as an random AI opponent.

Thank you all for your input. ;)

NOTE to self. Put in orkish axemen (a special jotnar unit) with requirements bronze working, warefare and code of laws - not buildable until armageddon counter 50+. Cannon fodder, cheap production (75% of normal axemen, the Clan have warrens), cost not unhappiness/war-weariness when dies, cost not maitnance, -40% city defence. As the Jotnar numbers dwindle and less and less Jotnar is born, they enlist orcs whom impressed with the giant-kins pure strength flock under the Jotnar banners.

DONE

Also add some high-armageddon events for Jotnar that give some additional recruits 'barbarian' units with a bunch of promotions.

Jotnar cannot have any other Government civic except 'Traditions', which is a Jotnar-only civic.

I am trying out the Jotnar with Fall Further for the second time. The first attempt was cut short by an evil Barbatos the Lich. I was allowed to change government civics, and I am currently running God King. The Jotnar don't seem to be blocked from using any of the other government civics either, but I'm only on turn 132 and haven't unlocked them all to verify that. The restriction to the Traditions civic doesn't appear to be working. Also, if the Jotnar population suffers from happiness penalties when another player switches to Republic and they can't, well that might be a problem. Perhaps make the Jotnar immune to unhappiness caused by not running the Republic civic when another player is using Republic? You could make that one additional effect of the Traditions civic.


STRATEGY: Cities will only use the first grid around it, instead of two. This greatly influence the placement of cities. They can also never grow bigger then size ten, so aim for many small cities.

I examined one of my cities and found it is working two tiles that are two squares away. I developed those squares for an upcoming settler, and was surprised to see Vindrastaed wasn't restricted from using them. The "one square use" rule doesn't appear to be working either. Also, do you intend for this rule apply to the City of a Thousand Slums wonder (founding city can work 3 tiles)?

The same city is currently population size ten and growing, so it looks like a Jotnar city can grow above ten as well. EDIT: Yes, I was able to grow Vindrastaed to population size 11.

Some general observations so far:
- I like the Jotnar banner. Nice choice.

- Egrass the Founder is a great worker/builder! I'd love to have more workers like this. :D I also enjoyed starting many fires in "friendly" ancient forests. It is a good way to slow down that elf and keep her out of my hair.

- Thrall militia are incredibly weak. I am playing with raging barbarians turned on. Even if I park a worker in a city for safety, they are the default defender as they are stronger than the militia thralls (2/2 vs 1/2). I have some spare militia "floaters" to use as defense fodder if a big enemy stack comes, but am only keeping one militia in each city to keep the population happy that they have "military protection". In truth it is my workers and Egrass that do any defending when necessary. An attack 1/defense 2 militia is very weak, even versus the lowliest of goblins. This almost necessitates building on a hill for the extra defense bonus. Doing so certainly makes it easier.

- With the Jotnar leader's philosophical trait, Pacifism, House of the Ancestors building, a great starting location (two floodplains cottages, one gold mine, and two wineries), and the ability to adopt the God King civic, I was able to pop multiple academies quickly and skyrocket my research. This lead to me quickly discovering drama first. I used the free artist to create a great work and really culture bomb my borders outward. I am miles ahead of everyone. My starting location is superb and the Jotnar leader has the philosophical trait, but being able to use God King on top of that made it even better. I am not a very experienced player, but I feel like I can make Great People even easier than the Sidar race can. Perhaps this is an overpowered combination of synergies? I'm not saying it definitely is, I'm just offering this up for thought. As noted above, if the Jotnar are meant to be blocked from all government civics other than Traditions, that isn't working.

- That amazing science output coupled with the leader trait to build wonders 50% faster made getting The Great Library very easy very soon as well. This is perhaps balanced by the Jotnars slower military production. I am doing okay in single player versus the AI and raging barbarians, but if Orthos or a human player in multiplayer showed up early, I don't think I would have a chance. Next game, I'll try to see how fast I can get a Hill Giant defense going.

- The one square city rule (a 3x3 grid of nine tiles), although not working, seems fine by me. It is how I've set my cities up and have done something similar before with Clan of Embers (4x4 grid). Tight cities are easier to defend because they can share defense troops, and my Jotnar defenses are weak so that works together. A new city can work any of its tiles right away, and it seems easier to push my cultural boundaries this way as well. The Traditions civic has a nice synergy with the "one square rule", having most of the benefit of the City State civic without having any City States drawbacks so if I am really supposed to be restricted to Traditions civic, that would be acceptable.

- Turn 250 and I'm suffering from a lack of troops. I'm teched out, wealthy, and incredibly vulnerable. I don't have iron or mithril in my borders and I lack a military to attack an area that does. I still have Egrass, and he's still busy burning my rivals ancient forests. I converted to Order for my two true allies, and made Sphener. I have confessor medics, a couple of mercenary archers, a Troll Hunter and am building Woodfathers but that's it. I managed to take one city, and could take a couple more weak ones with Sphener leading the attack if I took along my meager troops, but that would leave what protecting my home? Thrall militia and workers? Not at this stage in the game. Jotnar military production is getting a thumbs down from me at this point. Looks like I'll be using an Sphener, four Woodfathers, an upgraded to Titan Egrass, and some workers to bombard city walls (cool ability for a worker to have btw) to secure some iron to make four paladins. It's a decent attack stack, but still leaves little for defense.

- I can build siege workshops, but can't build any siege equipment? Seems odd. Maybe I just shouldn't be able to build siege workshops being as giants can bombard anyway? The same goes for stables. I have stables and horses, but is there a mounted giant unit that requires stables? If not, why be allowed to build them?

- Maybe I just don't know how to play the Jotnar? Could be. This is still just my first game with them.

I am trying out the Jotnar with Fall Further for the second time. The first attempt was cut short by an evil Barbatos the Lich. I was allowed to change government civics, and I am currently running God King. The Jotnar don't seem to be blocked from using any of the other government civics either, but I'm only on turn 132 and haven't unlocked them all to verify that. The restriction to the Traditions civic doesn't appear to be working. Also, if the Jotnar population suffers from happiness penalties when another player switches to Republic and they can't, well that might be a problem. Perhaps make the Jotnar immune to unhappiness caused by not running the Republic civic when another player is using Republic? You could make that one additional effect of the Traditions civic.

Well, I managed to fail to include a file in the installation of BETA. Resulting in that you can change civics. You have a point with the goverment switching thing.

NOTE TO SELF. Make Jotnar immune to the unhappyness of not having Republic.

I examined one of my cities and found it is working two tiles that are two squares away. I developed those squares for an upcoming settler, and was surprised to see Vindrastaed wasn't restricted from using them. The "one square use" rule doesn't appear to be working either. Also, do you intend for this rule apply to the City of a Thousand Slums wonder (founding city can work 3 tiles)?

Why it is this way I can't say. It really shouldn't. Is anyone else experiencing it? I would like to carefully suggest the possibility of something funky with your installation. Try installing everything from scratch and see what happens?

NOTE TO SELF. Make City of a thousand slums unbuildable for Jotnar.

The same city is currently population size ten and growing, so it looks like a Jotnar city can grow above ten as well. EDIT: Yes, I was able to grow Vindrastaed to population size 11.

This should also be impossible. I'd like to refer to the possibility of a funky installation. Can someone confirm or deny this?

Some general observations so far:
- I like the Jotnar banner. Nice choice.

Thank you :)

- Egrass the Founder is a great worker/builder! I'd love to have more workers like this. :D I also enjoyed starting many fires in "friendly" ancient forests. It is a good way to slow down that elf and keep her out of my hair.

YEEEES. Don't forget that you can use all Jotnar Citizens as workers.

- Thrall militia are incredibly weak. I am playing with raging barbarians turned on. Even if I park a worker in a city for safety, they are the default defender as they are stronger than the militia thralls (2/2 vs 1/2). I have some spare militia "floaters" to use as defense fodder if a big enemy stack comes, but am only keeping one militia in each city to keep the population happy that they have "military protection". In truth it is my workers and Egrass that do any defending when necessary. An attack 1/defense 2 militia is very weak, even versus the lowliest of goblins. This almost necessitates building on a hill for the extra defense bonus. Doing so certainly makes it easier.

Thralls are very weak. But you build 3-4 of them as fast as ~2 warriors. And they have a very high city defence bonus.

- With the Jotnar leader's philosophical trait, Pacifism, House of the Ancestors building, a great starting location (two floodplains cottages, one gold mine, and two wineries), and the ability to adopt the God King civic, I was able to pop multiple academies quickly and skyrocket my research. This lead to me quickly discovering drama first. I used the free artist to create a great work and really culture bomb my borders outward. I am miles ahead of everyone. My starting location is superb and the Jotnar leader has the philosophical trait, but being able to use God King on top of that made it even better. I am not a very experienced player, but I feel like I can make Great People even easier than the Sidar race can. Perhaps this is an overpowered combination of synergies? I'm not saying it definitely is, I'm just offering this up for thought. As noted above, if the Jotnar are meant to be blocked from all government civics other than Traditions, that isn't working.

You are not supposed to be able to have God King. And Jotnar is a builder civ that is very good for a great person strategy - and with HotA in all cities you do produce great people approximatly +50%. Not something that is overpowering compared to other civs unique buildings. But I'll think about it.

- That amazing science output coupled with the leader trait to build wonders 50% faster made getting The Great Library very easy very soon as well. This is perhaps balanced by the Jotnars slower military production. I am doing okay in single player versus the AI and raging barbarians, but if Orthos or a human player in multiplayer showed up early, I don't think I would have a chance. Next game, I'll try to see how fast I can get a Hill Giant defense going.

I've managed to stave off Orthus at the cost of 7 Thrall Militia. ;)

- The one square city rule (a 3x3 grid of nine tiles), although not working, seems fine by me. It is how I've set my cities up and have done something similar before with Clan of Embers (4x4 grid). Tight cities are easier to defend because they can share defense troops, and my Jotnar defenses are weak so that works together. A new city can work any of its tiles right away, and it seems easier to push my cultural boundaries this way as well. The Traditions civic has a nice synergy with the "one square rule", having most of the benefit of the City State civic without having any City States drawbacks so if I am really supposed to be restricted to Traditions civic, that would be acceptable.

Thanks. As mentioned, it took rather a lot of planning. However it is supposed to work..

- Turn 250 and I'm suffering from a lack of troops. I'm teched out, wealthy, and incredibly vulnerable. I don't have iron or mithril in my borders and I lack a military to attack an area that does. I still have Egrass, and he's still busy burning my rivals ancient forests. I converted to Order for my two true allies, and made Sphener. I have confessor medics, a couple of mercenary archers, a Troll Hunter and am building Woodfathers but that's it. I managed to take one city, and could take a couple more weak ones with Sphener leading the attack if I took along my meager troops, but that would leave what protecting my home? Thrall militia and workers? Not at this stage in the game. Jotnar military production is getting a thumbs down from me at this point. Looks like I'll be using an Sphener, four Woodfathers, an upgraded to Titan Egrass, and some workers to bombard city walls (cool ability for a worker to have btw) to secure some iron to make four paladins. It's a decent attack stack, but still leaves little for defense.

Jotnar is not a rushing civ, but if you take care of your Citizens and build for example a number of Wielders of Arms .. you have a decent army in end game. I am also creating the ability to mass-produce cheap cannon-fodder units for end-game. See my post above. Also Jotnar Berserkers, Jotnar Elder Trolls and other units pack quite a punch.

- I can build siege workshops, but can't build any siege equipment? Seems odd. Maybe I just shouldn't be able to build siege workshops being as giants can bombard anyway? The same goes for stables. I have stables and horses, but is there a mounted giant unit that requires stables? If not, why be allowed to build them?

That was odd, and I will look into that. But as mentioned, perhaps I should just remove the siege workshops? Same thing with stables, although I have a vague memory of removing them from use.

- Maybe I just don't know how to play the Jotnar? Could be. This is still just my first game with them.

I'm sure you've done as well as anyone. :)

Also are you -sure- you installed the BETA and not the ALPHA?

Thanks for the feedback...

I installed from the "Jotnar BETA copy-paste folder" link, so yes, I am running the Beta but that doesn't necessarily rule out something funky with my installation.

Any chance you played alpha earlier, and now copied the BETA into the wrong folder. Best way is always to delete the whole mod folder and reinstall.

Nope, I've only DL'ed and installed the beta version. I've installed four mods, several map scripts (Blue Marble, Perfect World, Full of Resources, and Flavor Starts), and replaced the Ancient Forest graphic with an alternate graphic mod. When I run Flavor Starts with Full of Resources maps I don't get tribal villages either. It is possible that something isn't agreeing with something else, and this is an issue that only I have.

Edit:
Have... you installed the latest CIV 1.74, BtS 3.17, FfH 0.32, FF 040? Any of you have FF 0.41?

BtS 3.17, FfH2 032L, and FF 041D. Sorry, I've updated my FF version beyond Fall Further 040B. If that is the cause of certain functions not working correctly, I apologize for taking up your time reporting them. Hopefully, my other observations about City of a Thousand Slums wonder and the Republic civic unhappiness penalty for the Jotnar make up for that in some small way.

getting python error and I am totally clueless when it comes to actual coding. I might actually figure out how to take a screenshot of this stuff one day.

ArgumentError: Python argument types In
CyCity.setCulture(CyCity, int)
did not match C++ signature:
setCulture(class CyCity {lvalue}, int, int, bool)

edit:even an old dog learns a new trick. notice the warning about pop shrinking to 9. first time this eror appeared my pop jumped to 10.

184554

Have both of you installed the latest CIV 1.74, BtS 3.17, FfH 0.32, FF 040? Any of you have FF 0.41?

Why you get this setCulture error I do not know. Clearly that piece of code (you get a small culture bonus when the city should have grown from 10 -> 11) doesn't work for anyone but I have never seen that error.

Next version will be rid of that piece of code. Do you want simple instructions on how to remove that piece of code that seems to give you trouble?

Forgive me AC, I got in such a rush to try out new civs that I missed the version number on FF. I had FF 0.41C at the time. If you can tell how to remove the offending code, I'll take care of it. BTW, played through the game anyway, Jotnar seems to work nicely with 0.41C, aint merged it with D yet.

pythoncallbacks...

F**K :mad:

Yes. My blunder. I'll make a new one.

Just left it out myself in one of the 041C patches. (Actually, I think I had it in but with a value of "0" - slightly worse than leaving it out.)


If you'd like, and I know you've said that Scions are 'more or less done'. I can use your merged version as a foundation to make Jotnar 1.0.

That's probably the best way to do it. If I change any python I'll send you a note.

[B][COLOR="Red"]NOTE to self. Put in orkish axemen ... not buildable until armageddon counter 50+. Cannon fodder, cheap production (75% of normal axemen, ...

I like that, and I do really like the Jotnar civ taking a "hit" as the AC goes up. Very flavorful.

Forgive me AC, I got in such a rush to try out new civs that I missed the version number on FF. I had FF 0.41C at the time. If you can tell how to remove the offending code, I'll take care of it. BTW, played through the game anyway, Jotnar seems to work nicely with 0.41C, aint merged it with D yet.

File: CvEventManager.py
Method: onCityDoTurn

if gc.getPlayer(iPlayer).getCivilizationType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('CIVILIZATION_JOTNAR'):
if pCity.getPopulation() > 2:
iPop = 10
pCity.setPopulation(iPop)
iCul = pCity.getCulture(pCity.getOwner())
iCul += 50
pCity.setCulture(iCul)


Got to file indicated above, search for the method in that file and remove the lines marked bold. It might fix your problem.

worked like a charm thanks. I changed the lines above that also to
if pCity.getPopulation() > 10:

thAt fixed the problem of city instantly jumping to pop 10 as soon as you hit 2.

I copied that from an old info file. Hmm, I am really sure that my online version doesn't have > 2 but > 10. Perhaps you downloaded your Jotnar BETA when I was fiddling with it and uploading new versions of the BETA?

This is how it looks on the one that is downloadable:

if gc.getPlayer(iPlayer).getCivilizationType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('CIVILIZATION_JOTNAR'):
if pCity.getPopulation() > 10:
iPop = 10
pCity.setPopulation(iPop)
iCul = pCity.getCulture(pCity.getOwner())
iCul = 50
pCity.setCulture(iCul)


You must have managed to download the older one during the two hours I by misstake had it up. Sorry.

iCul = pCity.getCulture(pCity.getOwner())
iCul = 50

Remember to use [ Code ] tags :p

Anyway, those two lines are interesting. With the second one you make the first completely useless. Did you mean to instead use iCul = iCul + 50?

That's probably the best way to do it. If I change any python I'll send you a note.

The next version released will have some python added to that last Scions section in spellinterface.

Are you planning to use the min/max age tags for promotions Xienwolf is adding to FF?

iCul = pCity.getCulture(pCity.getOwner())
iCul = 50

Remember to use [ Code ] tags :p

Anyway, those two lines are interesting. With the second one you make the first completely useless. Did you mean to instead use iCul = iCul + 50?

Well. I was half-asleep when I made that. The purpose is to increase the city's culture with +50 everytime is 'should' have grown from 10->11 to represent the increased importance of the city as the giants leave and spread tales about their home staedding. Is +50 too much? +10? For a size 10 city, normally 50 is a drop in the sea?

The next version released will have some python added to that last Scions section in spellinterface.

Are you planning to use the min/max age tags for promotions Xienwolf is adding to FF?

Since I have no idea what that is about, I can only say 'if you think I should'. ;)

50 is probably appropriate. By the time you are size 10 you ought to be pulling in about that much per turn anyway, and probably are not gaining population too quickly unless to aim for it, in which case you need a number large enough to be worth aiming for. So if anything it may be too small.

As for what the tags are, they are PreReq's for your promotions which mean you cannot gain them until the unit has been alive for a certain amount of time (scaled by gamespeed). I think that my initial reason for making it had been your discussions about how the Giants ought to get stronger with age, and so it is perfect for you, especially combined with some other tags I have made :)

If you set up a promotion which was:
+1 :strength:
PreReqMinAge: 100
PreReqUnit: Hill Giant
bNoXP
bAutoAcquire
NewName: Mature Hill Giant

That would mean that any Hill Giant you kept alive for 100 turns (300 on Marathon, 150 on Epic, 67 on Quick) would gain a point of strength and now be known as a "Mature Hill Giant" rather than a "Hill Giant" (and in the case of the Stooges, they would now be "Larry (Mature Hill Giant)" rather than "Larry (Hill Giant)").


I haven't implemented the PreReq Unit field yet, so it isn't quite perfect for you, but that is the next field I plan to work on. You could easily make another one which activates at age of 500 to make them an "Elder Hill Giant" and so on (though those numbers might be a bit too high of value).

Since I have no idea what that is about, I can only say 'if you think I should'. ;)

Just remembering past discussions about Jotnar unit's ageing - the new tags would allow for aged-based promotions. (And promotion-based spells could give the equivalent of age-based upgrades.)

50 is probably appropriate. By the time you are size 10 you ought to be pulling in about that much per turn anyway, and probably are not gaining population too quickly unless to aim for it, in which case you need a number large enough to be worth aiming for. So if anything it may be too small.

As for what the tags are, they are PreReq's for your promotions which mean you cannot gain them until the unit has been alive for a certain amount of time (scaled by gamespeed). I think that my initial reason for making it had been your discussions about how the Giants ought to get stronger with age, and so it is perfect for you, especially combined with some other tags I have made :)

If you set up a promotion which was:
+1 :strength:
PreReqMinAge: 100
PreReqUnit: Hill Giant
bNoXP
bAutoAcquire
NewName: Mature Hill Giant

That would mean that any Hill Giant you kept alive for 100 turns (300 on Marathon, 150 on Epic, 67 on Quick) would gain a point of strength and now be known as a "Mature Hill Giant" rather than a "Hill Giant" (and in the case of the Stooges, they would now be "Larry (Mature Hill Giant)" rather than "Larry (Hill Giant)").


I haven't implemented the PreReq Unit field yet, so it isn't quite perfect for you, but that is the next field I plan to work on. You could easily make another one which activates at age of 500 to make them an "Elder Hill Giant" and so on (though those numbers might be a bit too high of value).

This sounds really awesome. ;)

Mid August I will pick up modding on Jotnar again, and I will definitly be looking into this sort of thing.

NOTE to self. Add these things, play around with various bonuses and rewards for keeping giant unit alive for a long time. What happens with such promo's when you take a Hill Giant --> Wielder of Arms?

NOTE to self, try adding promotion to Troll Elder, a spell that is lost with use but regained somehow. That 'summons the wild', aka calls down a -wildly- random number of wild trolls.

NOTE to self, with this we could throw away some promotion lines. Hill Giant --> Mature Giant --> Elder Giant (promotable to --> Titan). Wild Troll --> Troll Hunter --> Troll Elder.

:goodjob:

When you upgrade the unit they would keep the promotions unless you set them to <bMustMaintain> as well. And if they kept the promotion that would mean keeping the unit name as well. So the ideal would probably be to require that they be maintained and just have a seperate line of "ages" for each unitclass. Wouldn't HAVE to use the MustMaintain though since any new promotion with a NewName overrides any previous ones automatically.

Ok, so I've been playing this match as the Jotnar ((Aggresive AI, Blessings of Amathaon, Living World, Last Days, Broader Alignment)), it's turn 200, and not a single Jotnar Citizen has spawned. I've put the python code in and nothing. All the rest of the codes work, but not that one. Any idea what's going on? Or am I just REALLY unlucky?

Ok, so I've been playing this match as the Jotnar ((Aggresive AI, Blessings of Amathaon, Living World, Last Days, Broader Alignment)), it's turn 200, and not a single Jotnar Citizen has spawned. I've put the python code in and nothing. All the rest of the codes work, but not that one. Any idea what's going on? Or am I just REALLY unlucky?

That -can- happen. Try three new games, play them only (very quickly) to turn 40. If you got no Jotnar by then something is amiss.

My personal experience is that a Jotnar spawns every ~15-20 turns. Sometimes they pop like crazy. Also remember that you can have max 2 jotnar citizens per city.

Hmm.. put the python code in? You don't need to do that manually. Just use the BETA? If you've done it manually I can only guess you've managed to fumble the spawning piece of code. Download the BETA and copy the code from there.

Thank you for testing Jotnar ;)

Well, I tried that, still no Jotnar, so my only guess can be I f***ed something up. But I copied the code directly from the text document. Maybe I missed something. So I'll paste what I copied


if gc.getPlayer(iPlayer).getCivilizationType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('CIVILIZATION_JOTNAR'):
iMax = 2
iMult = 500
if CyGame().getGlobalCounter() >= 50:
iMax = 2
iMult = 800
if CyGame().getGlobalCounter() >= 75:
iMax = 3
iMult = 900
if CyGame().getGlobalCounter() == 100:
iMax = 4
iMult = 1200
if CyGame().getSorenRandNum(10000, "Giants born") <= iMult:
iMax = iMax * pPlayer.countNumBuildings(gc.getInfoTypeForString( 'BUILDING_JOT_STAEDDING'))
if pPlayer.getUnitClassCount(gc.getInfoTypeForString( 'UNITCLASS_ADULT')) < iMax:
iUnit = gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_JOT_ADULT')
newUnit = pPlayer.initUnit(iUnit, pPlot.getX(), pPlot.getY(), UnitAITypes.NO_UNITAI, DirectionTypes.DIRECTION_NORTH)
CyInterface().addMessage(iPlayer,True,25,CyTransla tor().getText("TXT_KEY_MESSAGE_GIANT_BORN",()),'AS2D_DISCOVERBONUS',1,gc.getUnitInfo(newUnit .getUnitType()).getButton(),ColorTypes(8),pCity.ge tX(),pCity.getY(),True,True)
newUnit.setLevel(1)
newUnit.setExperience(1, -1)
if pCity.getNumBuilding(gc.getInfoTypeForString('BUIL DING_JOT_HOUSE_OF_THE_ANCESTORS')) > 0:
newUnit.setHasPromotion(gc.getInfoTypeForString('P ROMOTION_SPIRIT_GUIDE'), True)




In CvEventManager under onCityDoTurn, so I don't know what's going on...


(Can't indent afaik, but it's indented in the right places, trust me)

comparing that to mine, only thing I see wrong is in line 18 of what you wrote. there should not be a space in CyTranslator. As far as getting it to ident properly, go to advanced and put it in code brackets. Here's direct cut and paste.

if gc.getPlayer(iPlayer).getCivilizationType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('CIVILIZATION_JOTNAR'):
iMax = 2
iMult = 500
if CyGame().getGlobalCounter() >= 50:
iMax = 2
iMult = 800
if CyGame().getGlobalCounter() >= 75:
iMax = 3
iMult = 900
if CyGame().getGlobalCounter() == 100:
iMax = 4
iMult = 1200
if CyGame().getSorenRandNum(10000, "Giants born") <= iMult:
iMax = iMax * pPlayer.countNumBuildings(gc.getInfoTypeForString( 'BUILDING_JOT_STAEDDING'))
if pPlayer.getUnitClassCount(gc.getInfoTypeForString( 'UNITCLASS_ADULT')) < iMax:
iUnit = gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_JOT_ADULT')
newUnit = pPlayer.initUnit(iUnit, pPlot.getX(), pPlot.getY(), UnitAITypes.NO_UNITAI, DirectionTypes.DIRECTION_NORTH)
CyInterface().addMessage(iPlayer,True,25,CyTransla tor().getText("TXT_KEY_MESSAGE_GIANT_BORN",()),'AS2D_DISCOVERBONUS',1,gc.getUnitInfo(newUnit .getUnitType()).getButton(),ColorTypes(8),pCity.ge tX(),pCity.getY(),True,True)
newUnit.setLevel(1)
newUnit.setExperience(1, -1)
if pCity.getNumBuilding(gc.getInfoTypeForString('BUIL DING_JOT_HOUSE_OF_THE_ANCESTORS')) > 0:
newUnit.setHasPromotion(gc.getInfoTypeForString('P ROMOTION_SPIRIT_GUIDE'), True)

The text box is too short, so odd spaces like that pop up on the forums. There's no space in that, building, or promotion in the file

understandable, was just pointing it out in case it wasn't. Cut and paste mine over yours and see if it works then. I just played mine to about 300 turns and had more adults than I knew what to do with.

I actually did that, still nothing. However, I just found out that the spawning mechanism for the Scions doesn't work either, so I don't think it's the code, but something else

That is a more complicated merge. I say merge cause I use vista and have to put everything in one file to use it. Unfotunately I got several other things already merged in so it would be hard to say exactly where to put what without reconstructing the whole thing.

I am still not sure why you copy-paste, unless you are trying to run FfH + FF + Jotnar + Other mod mods.

def onCityDoTurn(self, argsList):
'City Production'
pCity = argsList[0]
iPlayer = argsList[1]
pPlot = pCity.plot()
pPlayer = gc.getPlayer(pCity.getOwner())

if gc.getPlayer(iPlayer).getCivilizationType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('CIVILIZATION_JOTNAR'):
if pCity.getPopulation() > 10:
iPop = 10
pCity.setPopulation(iPop)
iCul = pCity.getCulture(pCity.getOwner())
iCul = 50
pCity.setCulture(iCul)

if gc.getPlayer(iPlayer).getCivilizationType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('CIVILIZATION_JOTNAR'):
iMax = 2
iMult = 500
if CyGame().getGlobalCounter() >= 50:
iMax = 2
iMult = 800
if CyGame().getGlobalCounter() >= 75:
iMax = 3
iMult = 900
if CyGame().getGlobalCounter() == 100:
iMax = 4
iMult = 1200
if CyGame().getSorenRandNum(10000, "Giants born") <= iMult:
iMax = iMax * pPlayer.countNumBuildings(gc.getInfoTypeForString( 'BUILDING_JOT_STAEDDING'))
if pPlayer.getUnitClassCount(gc.getInfoTypeForString( 'UNITCLASS_JOT_ADULT')) < iMax:
iUnit = gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_JOT_ADULT')
newUnit = pPlayer.initUnit(iUnit, pPlot.getX(), pPlot.getY(), UnitAITypes.NO_UNITAI, DirectionTypes.DIRECTION_NORTH)
CyInterface().addMessage(iPlayer,True,25,CyTransla tor().getText("TXT_KEY_MESSAGE_GIANT_BORN",()),'AS2D_DISCOVERBONUS',1,gc.getUnitInfo(newUnit .getUnitType()).getButton(),ColorTypes(8),pCity.ge tX(),pCity.getY(),True,True)
newUnit.setLevel(1)
newUnit.setExperience(1, -1)
if pCity.getNumBuilding(gc.getInfoTypeForString('BUIL DING_JOT_HOUSE_OF_THE_ANCESTORS')) > 0:
newUnit.setHasPromotion(gc.getInfoTypeForString('P ROMOTION_SPIRIT_GUIDE'), True)


if pCity.getNumRealBuilding(gc.getInfoTypeForString(' BUILDING_CITADEL_OF_LIGHT')) > 0:

This works perfectly... and I reccomend using Notepad++ or something more advanced.

Note to self, create new promotion 'giant kin' that gives increased visibility, no loss of movement for terrain and able to cross uncrossable terrain (aka mountain). Add this promotion to all giant units. Then this promotion can be tweaked back and forth instaed of -every- jotnar unit. Add also to settlers and workers.


Note to self, look into giving Jotnar the ability to use Mountain squares for +2 hammers, +1 commerse, +1 food. There are some mod that uses mountain terrasses for some native american people that have made this work.

*bump*

so how's development going on this one? I'm really looking forward to seeing them in FF, much love for the giant race. I've loved giants since the very first Warlords game :D

Due to several things, among them some really heavy personal problems. The kind you go offline permanently from and do not even leave a witty remark as your civilization have been wiped out. But mostly me taking charge of my life with martial arts, security certifications, spending free time getting better at my job etc its been a little stalled.

I am intending to get started again, my wife I know is itching for it. I am planning for a 1.0 version before the end of 2008 - perhaps not with all features I'd wanted but many of those mentioned here in the thread. This 1.0 version will hopefully be adopted by Vehem and Fall Further as I then will declare it 'stable'.

One thing I am also waiting for.. a little.. is for Talq to declare the scions 'done' and for the general consensus to declare it 'not madly unbalanced'. I have some vague memory of the plan being that Talq were to put an end to his project and including it and the Jotnar in one package, a package I could then work on to make Jotnar 1.0 and Scions Full Version and hand over to Vehem.

I am also aware of that there are a lack of genuine original art in the Jotnar project, but honestly that is what I am the -least- interested in fiddling with. But with some hope I can get some volenteers to make some nice stuff for version 1.0.

Sorry for the dissapearing act. I've been right here. ;)

I'm sorry to hear that you have had issues, hope it's all solved now and I sincerely wish you the best of luck :)

on a side note: looking forward to jotnar+scions in FF ;)

I am very happy that you are interested in playing Jotnar. :)

Uh, sorry for not reading this whole topic... not enough time to do so... But I'll ask anyway. Is it going to work with the very latest version of Fall Further? This modmod looks really, really well-made and I look forward to testing it.

Uh, sorry for not reading this whole topic... not enough time to do so... But I'll ask anyway. Is it going to work with the very latest version of Fall Further? This modmod looks really, really well-made and I look forward to testing it.

When I sit myself down to work on Jotnar it will be working for the latest version of FF. Yes, absolutly.

Ok, so I'm kinda new to this and am no programmer so I'm sorry if this is unhelpful but here are the problems I'm having with this mod.

First off, I'm running Vista & FF .42. The install wasn't quite as smooth as the post lead me to beleive either. I had to go into the ini file "fall further 042" and manually change modular loading to 1 (as shown in the alpha post) since the ini file loaded by the mod simply read "fall further" and wasn't being accessed by the mod.

So what's happening is durring load up I get 3 different XML tag errors. It tells me that:

XML tag: BUILDINGCLASS_OBELISK in info class is incorrect
current XML: modules\jotnar\buildings\jotnar_civ4buildinginfos. xml

XML tag: UNITCLASS_GYPSY_WAGON in info class is incorrect
current XML: modules\jotnar\civ\jotnar_civ4civilizationinfos.xm l

XML tag: UNITCLASS_DRAGONSHIP in info class is incorrect
current XML: modules\jotnar\civ\jotnar_civilizationsinfos.xml

My play experience so far is that the game loads, Jotnar is sellectable, I can start the game, and then the whole program crashes when I end turn one. I've tried this three times.

Am I just trying to run a mod which is not set to work with FF .42 yet? Any suggestions would be wonderful as this looks like more great content which I would dearly love to try.

Am I just trying to run a mod which is not set to work with FF .42 yet?

Yes. The current version is for FF.40B/FFH.32L, as mentioned in the beta download post (third post in this thread).

Ok, thanks for the reply. I'm looking foward to getting to try the updated version and I'll keep my eye on this tread.

I have run into a problem, where text about my units are huge and might cause game crash. Have anyone seen this, and do you know how to fix it?

I have run into a problem, where text about my units are huge and might cause game crash. Have anyone seen this, and do you know how to fix it?

Have you edited MainInterface.py at all? There are a few places in there that set fonts for various areas of the screen and if those are changed it could cause something like this - though I think of a reason that those parts of the code would have been changed off the top of my head.

Have you edited MainInterface.py at all? There are a few places in there that set fonts for various areas of the screen and if those are changed it could cause something like this - though I think of a reason that those parts of the code would have been changed off the top of my head.

No. Not at all. This is -only- XML edits in a modular mod. Could it be the fact that it is a modular mod?

Ok, I changed it into a non-modular mod and updated it to the latest version. The problem dissapeared.

PHEW

However one wonders why those that sits around editing the XML schemes can't make new settings optional with a default value so things become a little more backwards compatible. Great stuff, that non-withstanding. For example I might consider an optional Evil Jotnar leader.

Ok, I changed it into a non-modular mod and updated it to the latest version. The problem dissapeared.

Wow - It's amazing, the bizarre stuff that'll crop up. I had no idea what might have been causing that.

Ok, I changed it into a non-modular mod and updated it to the latest version. The problem dissapeared.

Wait - you mean it's now going to work with the newest Fall Further or have I misunderstood this post?

Your text file was probably the culprit. If you didn't close out a color change with [COLOR_REVERT] you can cause all kinds of strange things to happen with your fonts. Other strange tendancies can crop up, but that one tends to be my own personal most frequent issue.

Though unless you corrected that issue when going non-modular I cannot imagine how it was solved :)

I am rather sick right now so any oddities can slip in because of me being to warm, too cold or too snifflish to notice a keyboard error. ;)

Right now I suffer from the problem that code that to me looks identical - doesn't work with Fall Further 0.42. My Jotnar Citizens have stopped spawning, even if I retry copy-paste procedure and checked the code with 'all symbols shown'.

Ok. Everything seems to be working now, lets get to the things I promised for version 1.0. :)

great, looking forward to it ;)

I am trying to do this.

I am trying out the Jotnar with Fall Further for the second time. The first attempt was cut short by an evil Barbatos the Lich. I was allowed to change government civics, and I am currently running God King. The Jotnar don't seem to be blocked from using any of the other government civics either, but I'm only on turn 132 and haven't unlocked them all to verify that. The restriction to the Traditions civic doesn't appear to be working. Also, if the Jotnar population suffers from happiness penalties when another player switches to Republic and they can't, well that might be a problem. Perhaps make the Jotnar immune to unhappiness caused by not running the Republic civic when another player is using Republic? You could make that one additional effect of the Traditions civic.

Well, I managed to fail to include a file in the installation of BETA. Resulting in that you can change civics. You have a point with the goverment switching thing.

NOTE TO SELF. Make Jotnar immune to the unhappyness of not having Republic.

Any ideas? ;)

the pillar of chains does that, you could probably add that same effect to the Jotnar palace I guess ;)

I'll check it out. I am quite sick right now, awake like 6 hours a day, at least I get some modding done. :cringe::sleep:

Just some flu. But still damn irritating.

Thanks. :)

no problem man, take care of yourself, health is more important than pretty much everything else. the Jotnar can wait a couple days I guess ;)

Well. At least I have plenty of bed-time to figure things out. Recently I was trying to create a python to create hills - but made a spell that dug a hole in the ground, eliminated the caster and sent up a message about penguins. :lol:

I was planning on letting the Jotnar Civilization raise/lower mountains/hills - with what units do you feel that such feats would be appropriate?

My original thought:

Raise/Lower Hills: Egrass, Elder Giants (Age 100+) and 4-Tier giantkin units.
Raise/Lower Mountains: Ancient Giants (Age 200+) and 4-Tier giantkin units.

Perhaps tied to a promotion they have to pay for, and perhaps requiring *** or something.

Of course with bCauseWar - so they can't want into an enemy territory and raising mountains all over the place during peacetime.

AWESOME ability! I don't know who should have it (well, workers come to mind of course) but I really really really like this idea, looking forward to it. raising/lowering mountains was one of the coolest things in Age of Wonders :D

I was planning on letting the Jotnar Civilization raise/lower mountains/hills - with what units do you feel that such feats would be appropriate?

My original thought:

Raise/Lower Hills: Egrass, Elder Giants (Age 100+) and 4-Tier giantkin units.
Raise/Lower Mountains: Ancient Giants (Age 200+) and 4-Tier giantkin units.

Perhaps tied to a promotion they have to pay for, and perhaps requiring *** or something.

Of course with bCauseWar - so they can't want into an enemy territory and raising mountains all over the place during peacetime.

Gekko;7275412']AWESOME ability! I don't know who should have it (well, workers come to mind of course) but I really really really like this idea, looking forward to it. raising/lowering mountains was one of the coolest things in Age of Wonders :D

I'd have to go the other way - not so keen on the idea. So far as I know there's not really a deep thematic reason for it (giants being master of earth magic or devotees of Kilmorph) and mechanically there are a number of problems that it causes, but more so the mountains than the hills.

The hills would need to destroy all improvements on the tile (so as to not allow farms to be elevated onto a hill or similar) and there would probably need to be a small casting delay on it.

The mountains I can't think of a safe fix for - seems overpowered or dangerous (in the hands of the AI) to allow a unit to cut off all access to an area.

Well. I don't seem to make the python work anyhow. However it makes sence to me that if anyone had the physical capacity to terraform the physical landscape, it would be organised giants. But I assume it is a little over the top. ;)

Right now I have done..

- Spawning of Jotnar Citizens are modified in such a way that less and less Jotnar spawned as the Armageddon counter rises, while more citizens per city are allowed. The giant race gives birth to less and less children and the end draws near.

- Jotnar cannot build City of a thousand slums wonder.

- Culture boost of +50 now working when Jotnar cities -should- grow from 10 --> 11. Jotnar cities are limited to max 10 in size.

- Jotnar now have access to a buildable melee class, Orc Conscripts when armageddon counter reaches 30+. Similar to Axemen yet a little cheaper and
causes no war unhappiness by dying.

- Egrass the Jotnar national hero is reduced to being a 2/6 --> 2/4 at the beginning of the game.

- The Sea-giant, Triton, now have subdue animals and subdue beasts to capture the creatures of the sea.

- All Jotnar units that truly are giants, now carry the promotion 'Giantkin'.

- Seriously turned down the rate of spawned giant citizens (special units that can be upgraded to various units OBS Jotnar cannot build most
units -only- promote them from the jotnar citizens), starting with a 3% per city and turn, and the chance diving steeply downwards as the armageddon
counter rises. A real incitament for Jotnar players to keep down the armageddon counter.

- Jotnar Giant units now age 50/seasoned 100/renowned 200/prominent 300/legendary and increases in strength & defence, the damage from the spellcasters also increase in potency. Giantkin promotion required.

Other tweaks I've been thinking of:

? Allowing Jotnar cities max size 8 instaed of 10.
? Giving the elder Jotnar giants some additional perks, for example legendary giants of tier 4 some nifty spell
? Creating a Jotnar only world spell 'Galeh-Moman' - the great river of tears. All Jotnar Citizens (note: only Jotnar Citizens, not Units) have 10% to gain the hero promotion, the rest dies. Perhaps adjusted so no more then ten will die and no more then one can gain hero promotion. See story below.* Let me again point out that these units are not buildable and using it is a -huge- cost or gamble for the player building the project. Possibly a spell available only for a Legenday Vala that also sacrifices the unit.
? Triton (sea-giant) being able to move fish recourses.
? Give the 'vanilla' Hill Giant unit the promotion Giantkin.

I have to deal with the Berserker and the Triton units graphics. But I don't have much left after that.


*As the births dwindle and the Jotnar race fall short, as fewer and fewer children are born - the giants suffer from a horrible despair. The greatest of the mages, the High Vala have a vision where all the younglings leave their homes with nothing more then the clothes they wear and go to the mountains to seek an answer - few will return but among those that do will be one that will save their race as the world crumbles. After he spoke to the people with his face filled with tear, he died .. some say from grief alone.

wow, everything sounds very good. on the stuff you're not yet sure about:

max cities 8 instead of 10 depends just on game balance I guess.

additional perks for elders are good as is the worldspell, but I strongly suggest that it's something you often benefit from instead of a huge gamble - right now I don't think many people are going to use it :P

the triton idea is nice, I guess they need it badly since their cities can only work the first ring of tiles. giving giantkin to the hill giants makes sense, and I also think that they shouldn't be considered animals.

Actually Hill Giants are Beasts and not Animals. But having early Hill Giants as well as Larry, Curly and Moe being animals is originally a way to keep the Hill Giants waltzing in over your borders but have resulted in a rather nice balance issue since Hunters are rather nasty against them.. unless I am misstaken.

But I could make vanilla and jotnar giants Melee instaed of Beast.. I don't know what Vehem feels about that.

Thank you for your intrest :)

you're right, they're beast units, just checked ;) maybe they should be considered melee, but barbarian hill giants spawning in the fog get AI_ANIMAL so that they don't venture into cultural borders?

- Jotnar Giant units now age 50/seasoned 100/renowned 200/prominent 300/legendary and increases in strength & defence, the damage from the spellcasters also increase in potency. Giantkin promotion required.


Is that using the Min/Max age promotion fields? Very nice way of using if so :D


Actually Hill Giants are Beasts and not Animals. But having early Hill Giants as well as Larry, Curly and Moe being animals is originally a way to keep the Hill Giants waltzing in over your borders but have resulted in a rather nice balance issue since Hunters are rather nasty against them.. unless I am misstaken.

But I could make vanilla and jotnar giants Melee instaed of Beast.. I don't know what Vehem feels about that.

No problem with the Jotnar ones - would need to check the behaviour of the barbarian ones. It also actually makes them fairly vulnerable to "Shock-troops". More so than the hunter issue...

Is that using the Min/Max age promotion fields? Very nice way of using if so :D

Yes, and thank you. I think that one have to spend a lot of time when playing Jotnar in more long-term games with minimizing the risk of loosing giant units and I hope to give an unique experience. Giants are powerful, and they grow more powerful as they age - yet they are more and more irreplacable as the armageddon counter rises. It will need balancing tweaks, but I hope we can look at such further in the future when its been in Fall Further for a few months and versions.

:)

No problem with the Jotnar ones - would need to check the behaviour of the barbarian ones. It also actually makes them fairly vulnerable to "Shock-troops". More so than the hunter issue...

Hmm, explain that about Shock-troops?

I believe he was talking about Swordsmen, and units like them, that receive bonuses vs melee.

I believe he was talking about Swordsmen, and units like them, that receive bonuses vs melee.

Pretty much any unit with the "Shock" promotions, +40% vs Melee for Shock I, same again for Shock II.

Ah, forgot about those lol.

Vehem, Arctic would you include Jotnars into FF? Perhaps, into the version for FfH 0.34, which will be released on October 10?...

Pretty much any unit with the "Shock" promotions, +40% vs Melee for Shock I, same again for Shock II.

It is partly up to Vehem relating to what he feels needs doing before it can be added, and partly (perhaps mostly) up to me concerning how much I want to do and how fast I do it.

No specific plans are made. The general plan that I am Vehem discussed is to get a stable 1.0 version of Jotnar and then add it to FF.

Pretty much any unit with the "Shock" promotions, +40% vs Melee for Shock I, same again for Shock II.

Yes. This is yet another reason I like the Troll's in Jotnar, there are no vs' Recon promotion. And the Trolls regenerate.. :D

Speaking of which. The Jotnar Cyclops are a dead end (replaces rangers and are a standalone in the 'troll' line) whom cannot be upgraded further (somewhat fixed by aging) but I'd need a unique/fun/useful tweak to them. They are already nerfed by the fact that they start 'charmed', aka they cannot attack anything until the effect of the charmed promotion wears off. Any suggestions?

you could give them the same mechanic of the triton ( moving around seafood ) , but with livestock instead ( sheep, cow, pigs etc. ) . and/or, let them heal when they are standing on one of those resources' tiles ( sheep are tasty, you know :lol: ) , maybe with a chance to delete the resource from the tile when this is done in enemy territory. :D

Sheep for Cyclops and Fish for Triton, of course the AI will have no idea how to use it. I think moving recources was fixed for dungeonadventure mod, so I could just lift it from there.

maybe with a chance to delete the resource
I hope you forgot a P letter: to "dePlete" not "delete" because it would be a game breaker if it removed them permanently. However temporary disfunction of the resource (scaled in terms of the game speed) would be nice.

actually I meant delete, but I agree that deleting a resource forever is very harsh. you're right, a temporary disfunction would work better ;)

If a Jotnar unit can move a resource, its gonna be a permanent move. And if its a risk of failure, its a permanent loss. No game is going to be won or lost due to the access to one sheep or fish recourse. And stealing other nations fish for example would trigger war.

Unless Vehem objects.

Oh. I'l be adding another, or perhaps two more possible leaders this week. Any more idea's on that?

Would it be weird with a giant leader with conquerer? *Let the small animals live their way as long they pay tribute..*

Actually, that sounds about right for some varieties of giant.

yeah, it kinda fits them I guess :D

How about Ogre Adept/Magi/archmagi as a disciple/arcane line?
Minotaur: replaces Mercenary.

Maybe other unique mistical units avaliable at special techs/religions?
Ideas:

Talos, a bronze giant. Requires bronze working + some advanced tech.

Leviathan with OO religion.

Nephilim (angel-like giants, descendents from fallen angels), replacement for crusaders with Order religion.

Gaians, the spirits of Earth, earth giants, replacement of Thanes of Kilmorph with RoK. Typhon as hero with RoK.

Echidna as a hero with Malevolent designs. It has a very minor chance to spawn a monster when the spell "mate" is cast, the spell is avaliable when the echidna is at the same tile as Typhon (spawnable monsters: hydra, Giant Lion (like Nemean lion), Chimera, sphinx, ladon (serpent-like minor dragon), cerberus, Orthrus (Not Orthus :), a two-headed dog and a doublet of Cerberus)). The spell should be unavaliable for a few turns after being cast and should consume a living unit on the same tile).

Gog and Magog as heroes. Probably built together/given by a world wonder (like the 3 giants' wonder)


By the way I get 3 errors when I load the mod (about obelisk, gypsy wagon and something else).



.

I'm not too sure about the ogre part, but I do like the idea of unique replacements for religious units... Would be kind of ridiculous for dwarves and elves to go scurrying around under the giant's feet.

So, I've found all the errors. 1) You should change BUILDINGCLASS_OBELISK to BUILDINGCLASS_MONUMENT in Jotnar_CIV4BuildingInfos, you should remove DRAGONSHIP (used twice) and GYPSY_WAGON from the list of unused units in Jotnar_CIV4CivilizationInfos; 2) Your monument UB is not used, to change it go to your Jotnar_CIV4BuildingInfos and under <Buildings> add
<Building>
<BuildingClassType>BUILDINGCLASS_MONUMENT</BuildingClassType>
<BuildingType>BUILDING_OBELISK_JOTNAR</BuildingType>
</Building>

So, I've found all the errors. 1) You should change BUILDINGCLASS_OBELISK to BUILDINGCLASS_MONUMENT in Jotnar_CIV4BuildingInfos, you should remove DRAGONSHIP (used twice) and GYPSY_WAGON from the list of unused units in Jotnar_CIV4CivilizationInfos; 2) Your monument UB is not used, to change it go to your Jotnar_CIV4BuildingInfos and under <Buildings> add
<Building>
<BuildingClassType>BUILDINGCLASS_MONUMENT</BuildingClassType>
<BuildingType>BUILDING_OBELISK_JOTNAR</BuildingType>
</Building>


This is because you are using my BETA version with the latest FF. They do not play well together. Yet.

I'll get together with my wife about your suggestions and get back to you. Several of them do not feel right, but that 'monster' hero that spawns monster could be a idea if one spin it a little different.

These ideas were quite random and I was bored at work. I will playtest your civ. more and maybe then I'll get something better :).

Good to hear that your wife likes gaming. Mine hates me to play anything.

These ideas were quite random and I was bored at work. I will playtest your civ. more and maybe then I'll get something better :).

Good to hear that your wife likes gaming. Mine hates me to play anything.

Give'me anything you come up with, I don't shoot anything down but only implement stuff I like.

And I am happily married to a hot, voluptuous blonde female computer-geek.

well, lucky you :P

I have added two new Jotnar leaders. Father Kasghenal (lawful elder warmonger) and Uxol the half-breed (barbarian, evil half-troll). My problem is that conqueror trait does not work very well, when taking over new cities with Kasghenal (whom have conqueror) I can only build a few buildings such as palisade and brewery.

well done :goodjob: you should ask Vehem or xienwolf about the conqueror trait I guess, they might help you out ;)

Recent development:

- New Jotnar Thrall unit graphics, Fixed/Changed Jotnar Berserkers, Archmages and Sea-giants.

- Added two new Leaders, one older Jotnar with more warlike features 'Father Kasghenal' (Financial, Aggressive) and a evil Troll half-breed 'Uxol' (Barbarian,
Arcane, Raiders). Mother Enningas has become Good Alignment - so the Jotnar now have a Good, a Neutral and an Evil leader.

- Nerfed the Jotnar max city size to 8 instaed of 10 and the Jotnar Staedding maintnance modifier to -10%.

We also discuss to replace all religious units from Savants to Paladins with 'jotnar' equivalents, larger, +2 str, giantkin and not buildable. Or ... its complicated. Is it really a good idea?

if it's not a nightmare to code it would be sweet to have jotnar unique religious units :)

Personally, I think that if it's possible to give them unique religious units, you should do it. Mainly because it helps make them unique, but also because being able to construct dwarves or elves in Giant cities seems awkward.

Personally, I think that if it's possible to give them unique religious units, you should do it. Mainly because it helps make them unique, but also because being able to construct dwarves or elves in Giant cities seems awkward.

Producing.. :)

Well. There would be the whole issue that you'd take away from Jotnar the usual build-and-burn religious units. Soilders of Kilmorph for production, Savants for research, Cultists to build temples. Playing the Jotnar there is no chance in hell that you'd sacrifice a unit promoted from a Jotnar Citizen to buff the city's culture with 15. And.. we are talking about 7*6 = 42 units that are involved.

I could consider removing all religious units (everything from satyrs and savants, to Paladins and High Priests) and instaed have -one- religious Jotnar unit for each religion. Available when you have the religion and priesthood (no temples required) whom simply can spread the religion without being sacrificed. 'Pathfinder of Kilmorph' or 'Voice of the Sea' etc. Giantkin, str 6 as base, divine and one or a few spells depending on religion. Mostly the same graphics but with different holy symbols. Only four allowed. That would mean that I have only to create 7 new units.

Vehem? Tal?

could they spread religion in the same manner as CoE?

Also, in the main game you can see when a unit is CoE - could that mechanic be expanded to cover the other religions?

That way you could have a single Jotnar religious unit that is of an unspecified faith until it is built/spawned (although a single faith city will only have that religion). It'd means a little less control over what religion spreads across the Jotnarr civ...

I am considering a Jotnar unit that have/will have unspecified religion. That simply spreads the current state religion (like CoE) but without any cost attached and it is consistent across any potential changes of state religion. It will be a compromise (perhaps max 6 units) and will be a hybrid between cleric and paladin/eidolon - weaker then the top units but available earlier (at priesthood). Starts with str 6 and ages up to str 10. It will be Jotnars -only- Divine unit.

Vehem seems ok with it, so I'll be looking for some cool graphics to corrupt. Names sofar is 'Oquid' and 'Seijd'. Idea's on what to call it? Lorekeeper? Mouth of the Divine? Anything cool pops up?

I was planning on letting the Jotnar Civilization raise/lower mountains/hills -

Strikes me as problematical, in use if not in execution.

I'd enjoy being wrong, though. :)

- Spawning of Jotnar Citizens are modified in such a way that less and less Jotnar spawned as the Armageddon counter rises, while more citizens per city are allowed.

I like the lowered spawning as the AC rises. The pop-increase is non-giants, yes?


Allowing Jotnar cities max size 8 instaed of 10.

I like that quite a bit. Has a lot more "bite."


Giving the elder Jotnar giants some additional perks, for example legendary giants of tier 4 some nifty spell.

AARP card? :)

How about stack-boosts? The Elder Giants help morale, or teach, or inspire, or something along that line.


? Creating a Jotnar only world spell 'Galeh-Moman' - the great river of tears. All Jotnar Citizens (note: only Jotnar Citizens, not Units) have 10% to gain the hero promotion, the rest dies.


Cool! I'm not sure about the balance of the figures you give, or even of the Hero promo. (A custom promo that's similar could be made.) But I really like the basic idea.

If a Jotnar unit can move a resource, its gonna be a permanent move. And if its a risk of failure, its a permanent loss. No game is going to be won or lost due to the access to one sheep or fish recourse. And stealing other nations fish for example would trigger war.

I suggest making it quite a bit more difficult to move Resources in/from someone else's territory. I do like a chance of losing the Resource completely. Might be nice to have it always pop-up elsewhere. (So really "lost", not "eliminated.")

I think a cost of some sort would be good, too, to act as a natural limitation on how much resource shuffling you can do.. Monetary is the only one I can think of. (Aren't too many to chose from.)

I am considering a Jotnar unit that have/will have unspecified religion. That simply spreads the current state religion (like CoE) but without any cost attached

I like the idea quite a bit. Especially as national units. (Nice limit allowing you to make them more powerful. :)) Different State Religions could easily give access to different spells. If you want them to have spells...

No cost for spreading religion doesn't strike me as right - though I could easily be wrong on that. I don't grok the Jotnar background terribly well.... Anyway, I think an xp cost would be interesting so long as, being Divine units, they get some free xps.

Mouth of the Divine?

I like that one, or something like it. Implies to me they're not terribly invested in any one religion/god. They're the mouthpieces for whatever religion the Jotnar follow ATM.

No cost for spreading religion doesn't strike me as right - though I could easily be wrong on that. I don't grok the Jotnar background terribly well.... Anyway, I think an xp cost would be interesting so long as, being Divine units, they get some free xps.

I like that... Maybe make it 2xp so it's not completely free, but isn't TOO expensive either?

No cost for spreading religion doesn't strike me as right - though I could easily be wrong on that. I don't grok the Jotnar background terribly well.... Anyway, I think an xp cost would be interesting so long as, being Divine units, they get some free xps.


I'm most likely going with no cost, hope you don't hold that against me. One of the reasons are like I've told Vehem that the Jotnar gets only this unit instaed of -all- other existing disciple units (except Druid->Woodfather). It is a absurdly huge nerf, I've played many games with a 'religious' strategy and knows how massivly powerful that can be.

Something I'd consider though is to put a 'wait' on it. So it takes five or ten turns to spread the religion. But remember that the Jotnar can easily have twice or thrice as many cities as a normal civ and they need to spread the religion to all of them.

Thanks for the feedback, i'll get to the other points later today. :)

Strikes me as problematical, in use if not in execution.

I'd enjoy being wrong, though. :)

I've scrapped this idea, since Vehem wasn't so fond of it. And because it was difficult.


I like the lowered spawning as the AC rises. The pop-increase is non-giants, yes?


Hmm, what I meant is. That every city have a percentage to spawn a number of Jotnar Citizen, but can have a maximum of Jotnar Citizen units at any time. The maximum of Jotnar Citizens units you can 'horde' rises with Armageddon counter. Not Population.

How about stack-boosts? The Elder Giants help morale, or teach, or inspire, or something along that line.

Sounds like a great idea. I'll use it. Decided not to.

I suggest making it quite a bit more difficult to move Resources in/from someone else's territory. I do like a chance of losing the Resource completely. Might be nice to have it always pop-up elsewhere. (So really "lost", not "eliminated.")

I think a cost of some sort would be good, too, to act as a natural limitation on how much resource shuffling you can do.. Monetary is the only one I can think of. (Aren't too many to chose from.)

Hmm, if you pick up a recourse, you get a promotion 'Herding cattle' or something. That allows to 'Put Sheep' or similar. A unit can pick up Sheep and put them down somewhere else.

Again I prefer putting in a delay, it takes three turns to 'pick up' sheep. Making it harder to rob other civs of recourses.

A possibility is that I add a non-national Hero. 'Pultry McDaggon'.

An odd creature said to have sneaked in through an Sheaim planar gate after having been thrown into a hell dimension from another world for crimes for witch he was of course .. totally innocent. Looking very much like a white-feathered bird with hands and arms instaed of wings, this small creature is notorically independant yet versatile. Captured by a giant and close to ending up in a pot, Pultry quickly swore alligence to the Jotnar leader.

Recon unit available at ??? with 4/2, marksman, adventurer, escape chance 50% and a near 100% chance of changing side if defeated. Channeling II and Shadow I. Can steal magic items.

-low- priority

And another wild thought. How about:

Available at Animal Handling 'Cheeta Hunting Pack' Str 3/1 Mov 3 Animal unit. 'Cheeta's are for the Jotnar sized similar to housecats for a human, they keep them in packs to hunt small game or to drive away the occassional goblin raider'.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=156108

Alt 'Wolf Hunting Pack' or similar.

A delay on the religion spreading ability is definitely required in my opinion. Or a fairly large Miscast probability. Otherwise you could achieve a fairly easy religious victory by rushing to a religion and then opening your borders and spreading it to all cities in the world as fast as you can run. Could even have workers out laying roads for you while rushing the religion to literally pave the way for victory.

EDIT: Alternativel, you could make the spell to spread the religion be bInBordersOnly, making it impossible to spread religion outside of your own cities. Or have an autoacquire promotion for the Religious Unit which offsets the hefty Miscast chance while in your own borders (so 100% chance to spread in your own city, but only a 20% chance to spread in another player's city). This would require that the spread religion ability is the only spell they can cast though, otherwise the hefty bonus against miscasting might cause funky results elsewhere (not that many spells right now HAVE much of a miscast chance....)


Hrm... you could also make it spread the state religion of the owner of the city. That allows them to spread religions in other player's cities without being able to force a personal religious victory. But it'd be wierd for an Order following Jotnar to wander through Sheiam lands spreading AV.

A delay on the religion spreading ability is definitely required in my opinion. Or a fairly large Miscast probability. Otherwise you could achieve a fairly easy religious victory by rushing to a religion and then opening your borders and spreading it to all cities in the world as fast as you can run. Could even have workers out laying roads for you while rushing the religion to literally pave the way for victory.

EDIT: Alternativel, you could make the spell to spread the religion be bInBordersOnly, making it impossible to spread religion outside of your own cities. Or have an autoacquire promotion for the Religious Unit which offsets the hefty Miscast chance while in your own borders (so 100% chance to spread in your own city, but only a 20% chance to spread in another player's city). This would require that the spread religion ability is the only spell they can cast though, otherwise the hefty bonus against miscasting might cause funky results elsewhere (not that many spells right now HAVE much of a miscast chance....)

Hrm... you could also make it spread the state religion of the owner of the city. That allows them to spread religions in other player's cities without being able to force a personal religious victory. But it'd be wierd for an Order following Jotnar to wander through Sheiam lands spreading AV.

How about two spells, one with bInBordersOnly and the other with ehm.. bOutsideBordersOnly (does that exist?) one of them have no miscast chance and the other one have a 30% miscast + a 1% chance of loosing caster?

I never do religious victory so I didn't think about that one. Thanks :)

However this unit would not be useful until you have (1) A religion (2) Priesthood (3) An available Jotnar Citizen and (4) The coins to upgrade him.

I am also considering adding a spell similar to Magisters 'Challange' to my Troll units. They can fight another Troll for experience. Due to the fact that Jotnar units are finite, and cannot just be built it would work something like this.

A. Unit one challanges Unit two and looses three (or five) turns of activity.
B. Battle is rolled, the loosing unit have 10% chance to die, otherwise looses 90% health.
C. Winning unit gains some xp.

Remember that other civs, would simply build a new unit in less then three/five turns if lost. And its no XP farming machine that can be compared to the vampire's city grinding.

Perhaps.. only to Cyclops.. to give them something unique?

Perhaps.. only to Cyclops.. to give them something unique?

Are Cyclops a type of Troll? I think it sounds perfect for Trolls. (Any of them.)

yeah, that would be nice indeed. I believe there's nothing about how trolls behave in FFH lore, so I guess you're free to handle them as you see fit :D

Are Cyclops a type of Troll? I think it sounds perfect for Trolls. (Any of them.)

Trolls are the recon line. However trolls replace scout --> hunter --> beastmaster where cyclops replace the ranger and stand outside the 'promotion' line. So the Cyclops really should get something extra, because you can never promote them up further to Beastmaster/Troll Elder.

Basically you can go Jotnar Citizen -> Cyclops and that is that, of course they age and grows stronger as all other giants.

But yes. It felt 'trollish'. Trolls for me are a sub-species of primitive giants, so is Cyclops?

cyclops are supposed to be giant mean one-eyed man-eating guys AFAIK :D

Eh, there are different types of Cyclops. If you want the Greco-Roman style, yeah, they're pretty much dumb man-eating freaks. The Norse version is nearly an equal with the gods, and is often much more intelligent... But still not a really good fit. However, since most of the Gods in the game are based, at least loosely, off of Celtic mythology (Dagda, Lugus, Cernunnos, ets), you should probably rely more on their version... The ancient Irish had a myth about a race called the Fomorians, who were usually depicted with one eye, and were intelligent but evil, and ruled with an iron fist. They ruled all of Ireland until the arrival of the Tuatha Dé Danann, who are the celtic gods that were borrowed for the game. The leader of the Fomorians, Balor, was a cyclops whose gaze was powerful enough to kill, but the leader of the Tuatha Dé Danann, Lug(us) shot out his eye with a sling, turning it on the Fomorian army to decimating effect and conquering the island. Of course, the Irish also described the Fomorians as Goat-men at times, or occasionally as one-armed and one-legged as well as one-eyed, but I still think they'd fit the lore better than the Greco-Roman variety.

Eh, there are different types of Cyclops. If you want the Greco-Roman style, yeah, they're pretty much dumb man-eating freaks. The Norse version is nearly an equal with the gods, and is often much more intelligent... But still not a really good fit. However, since most of the Gods in the game are based, at least loosely, off of Celtic mythology (Dagda, Lugus, Cernunnos, ets), you should probably rely more on their version... The ancient Irish had a myth about a race called the Fomorians, who were usually depicted with one eye, and were intelligent but evil, and ruled with an iron fist. They ruled all of Ireland until the arrival of the Tuatha Dé Danann, who are the celtic gods that were borrowed for the game. The leader of the Fomorians, Balor, was a cyclops whose gaze was powerful enough to kill, but the leader of the Tuatha Dé Danann, Lug(us) shot out his eye with a sling, turning it on the Fomorian army to decimating effect and conquering the island. Of course, the Irish also described the Fomorians as Goat-men at times, or occasionally as one-armed and one-legged as well as one-eyed, but I still think they'd fit the lore better than the Greco-Roman variety.

So... you'd really want the cyclops perhaps to be a little more 'evil'. Perhaps with some sort of powers? Intelligent. A little 'Fomorian'?

Right now they are pretty Greco-Roman.

Getting down to the practical stuff. How would you like the cyclops to work?

I like the greco-roman style better actually. your idea of challenging each other would then fit them well. and I'd support having them able to consume livestock resource and eat living units to replenish health. (cannibalism?) :D

Gekko;7356253']I like the greco-roman style better actually. your idea of challenging each other would then fit them well. and I'd support having them able to consume livestock resource and eat living units to replenish health. (cannibalism?) :D

Actually, since the Fomorians were tribal it would fit them too.. And it's not so much that they were evil, just more capable of evil. Some were kind, while others demanded food/children as tribute. Rather than idiots, they were more like the Greek Titans, an older set of gods displaced by the new pantheon. Mostly, I just don't want to see a cyclops as the kind of idiots portrayed in the illiad. :)

Primitive, yet not idiots. And since these are 'Jotnar' Cyclops, these are the decently civilized and 'lawful' variety. :scan:

Check :)

Valkrionn, are you talking about the illiad or the odissey? I can't remember any cyclops in the illiad but I remember very well the one that ulysses blinded :lol:

I've read a philosophy book and one of the issues it talked about was the story of the cyclop in the odissey... basically the cyclop wasn't so dumb, it was just portraited that way by the guy who wrote the epic to make a stark constrast between "them" and "us" ... of course this was just the opinion a random guy, but I think it was a quite interesting interpretation :D

Gekko;7357827']Valkrionn, are you talking about the illiad or the odissey? I can't remember any cyclops in the illiad but I remember very well the one that ulysses blinded :lol:

I've read a philosophy book and one of the issues it talked about was the story of the cyclop in the odissey... basically the cyclop wasn't so dumb, it was just portraited that way by the guy who wrote the epic to make a stark constrast between "them" and "us" ... of course this was just the opinion a random guy, but I think it was a quite interesting interpretation :D

lol oops. Meant the Odyssey. They tend to blur together in my mind...

really? they have little in common, one is a huge war while the other is a long travel :D

They both were old greek stuff with heroes in them and everyone died. Or was that Irish legends? ;)

And they were written by the same guy, and the one leads off of the other.

Ok. Currently we are having problems due to a crashed windows and some mystical hardware issues. But hopefully I will have time to do some finishing toutches this weekend. Then its testing to be done.

If Vehem doesn't come out with a 0.34 suited Fall Further in the near future I might cough up a 'middle-version' just to get some testers.

Hmm. Various things have delayed this, among other we lost a lot of work in a computer crash. And have kind of been too lazy to redo it until we can base it on a Fall Further for 0.43.

Could perhaps an board administrator toss this thread into the Fall Further section, since me and Vehem agreed on adding Jotnar to FF?

Thread moved.

WOOT - the new stuff is in. Thanks Vehem and all others. I'm downloading it and adding on Jotnar monday evening.

I am thinking of making 'House of the ancestors' give a bonus to passive experience. Its very thematic.

Since the Giants are supposed to be a slow build powerhouse (or so I assume) it might be appropriate to give them a VERY large XP Cap for passive XP, but not boost the rate at all. Then by sitting in the city for ages on end they can get pretty powerful eventually.

Sounds like a good idea. I'll figure out how. :)

I am also very close to giving Egrass the 'People's champion' promo. It would fit perfectly (and not do much really since Jotnar can have max size 8 cities).

And Titans might get +50% vs Avatars..

Hmm, I get Alciniyus, and Themoch 'has risen' and gets Scion mini-heroes???

Also gets strange graphics on mouse-over, it seems like there are multiple 'new rows' in what is displayed. Image attached.

Funky. I would suspect that somewhere you have a text key that isn't quite defined properly. This is all after placing the Jotnar into the works, or in base FF?

The mini-hero thing shouldn't be happening at all though. New system for CivilizationInfos.xml ought to be near flawless :( Remember that Alcinus goes to a random Civilization whenever killed, so unless you can BUILD him, that isn't too abnormal.

Hmm, I get Alciniyus, and Themoch 'has risen' and gets Scion mini-heroes???

I'd guess the problem is with "The Gift" tech. The mini-hero events each have 2 techs as prereqs: A different one for each mini-hero, plus The Gift.

The Gift is supposed to be set up such that it can't be researched. The Scions have it assigned as a starting tech.

Funky. I would suspect that somewhere you have a text key that isn't quite defined properly. This is all after placing the Jotnar into the works, or in base FF?

FF 043 + Jotnar. Could you please explain more, text key?

I'd guess the problem is with "The Gift" tech. The mini-hero events each have 2 techs as prereqs: A different one for each mini-hero, plus The Gift.

The Gift is supposed to be set up such that it can't be researched. The Scions have it assigned as a starting tech.

Jotnar have its own technology, but its named JO1 or similar and is called 'Traditions'. It be strange it somehow get confused with The Gift. If I still got XML left from Scions (after all I stole the Scions and rebuilt it) :) I'm really suprised.

Text key meaning all the TXT_KEY_blahblahblah stuff. I'd say go back to unmodded FF and bring in your updated files one at a time, starting with the techinfos, to see when the error comes up.

Okey.. I have desperatly tried to redo what I've lost in the harddrive crash. Gave up. And managed to restore the actual -files- in five minutes. That was ten hours of modding down the dumpster. :mad:

I'll now replace the old junky files with my newest restored files taken from the presumed burned out harddrive. And I have good hope for this. But right now I feel a little bummed out.

I'll now replace the old junky files with my newest restored files taken from the presumed burned out harddrive. And I have good hope for this. But right now I feel a little bummed out.

Join the club - I just had another 4 hours doing battle with Vista. I can get the game to start and play quite well - but it's missing most of our Python and it won't allow you to save. I'm fairly sure that what I'm doing is fixing some symptoms of a problem I've yet to work out. If I could find the root cause, it'd be a lot easier to fix.

Yay. Jotnar now working with all the old modifications with FF 043.

Now for the fun stuff. The all-purpose-religious unit I think will be the first thing.

And I want a few civ-specific events for Jotnar. Anyone with more ideas on that? :)

Events right now considered:

- A few events when Jotnar gains a lesser unit, such as a Hill Giant or a Mercenary. A orc leader shows up with some henchmen awed by the power of the giants etc.

- One of the ancient giants are near death and chooses to aid his people one last time, by ? Gives a Jotnar city one out of three UB's, Flesh of Ymnir or similar.

- Add a Jotnar only choice on at least the goblin toxic dumpers event 'Ahh.. go stomp on the vermin.' or similar.

- One of the Jotnar Adults are given the chance to go on some sort of spirit quest, and meet father time, the giant that is resting until the end of the world when he will rise and blow his horn and then crush the sun in his hands. Something like that. An occuring event where the Jotnar can sacrifice Jotnar Adults to lower armageddon counter?


Just brainstorming..

Events right now considered:

- A few events when Jotnar gains a lesser unit, such as a Hill Giant or a Mercenary. A orc leader shows up with some henchmen awed by the power of the giants etc.

- One of the ancient giants are near death and chooses to aid his people one last time, by ? Gives a Jotnar city one out of three UB's, Flesh of Ymnir or similar.

- Add a Jotnar only choice on at least the goblin toxic dumpers event 'Ahh.. go stomp on the vermin.' or similar.

- One of the Jotnar Adults are given the chance to go on some sort of spirit quest, and meet father time, the giant that is resting until the end of the world when he will rise and blow his horn and then crush the sun in his hands. Something like that. An occuring event where the Jotnar can sacrifice Jotnar Adults to lower armageddon counter?


Just brainstorming..

Remember that most civs have only 1 or 2 specially linked events. The Jotnar can probably warrant a few extra due to their unique nature, but it's probably best not to overdo it too much. Think about the events that will add the most fun, flavour and interest to the civ and implement just those.

Absolutly. Nothing unbalancing. Perhaps a unit or similar at some time is ok considering that they' will have a lack of military units problem constantly.

Unless you build a massive hoard of Thralls of course... 1/2 str units with +50% city defence. ;)

And other things like lowering the armageddon counter with 2 at the cost of a jotnar adult will -hurt-. Ymirs flesh would be mostly for flavor, adding some small bonus to one city is rather irrelevant in the grand scope of things.

Since I am using this thread as my own personal blogg.. my wife's computer crashed again. And the bleep, bleep, bleeepy bleeeeeeeeep that is presented at startup and the fact that I can't even get anything on the screen isn't a good sign. Spent an hour yesterday trying to breath life back into it with no avail.

I am very sure that it is the CPU/Motherboard however, and since we built the thing ourselves from various spare/ordered online parts there is no warranty. So the good news is that even if I have to buy a new computer for my wife, the harddrive should be safe and I'll be back and running smoothly when I get a new stationary and can plug in the old harddrive as slave.

I almost cried like a baby when I thought also -this- harddrive was corrupted. :cry:

ouch! that sucks :( something very similar happened to me some years ago, luckily the pc was very old so it was about time to get a new one anyway. worst thing that ever happened however, is when my cd drive GRINDED ( literally, it just tore it to pieces ) a cd.
apparently, it did not like Iron Maiden :lol:

Got everything working, new graphics and mothercard .. 120 EURO later..

Now we'll mostly be playtesting Jotnar for a week, but the 'religious main unit' is in game and all other religious units are out .. but we are very unsure about what graphics he/she should have.

Ok, here it is. Version 1.0 of the Jotnar. Now silly easy to install. For Fall Further 043 patch F. :)

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6924201&postcount=4

Just had a quick play - good fun and unique play style.

Stumbled across a few issues;

Egrass is missing a "popup" graphic (the one that appears in his 'pedia entry - currently a big pink square). Hill Giants still require "Training Yard" - we switched the buildings around when we did Passive XP, so they should probably require "Barracks" now if they're at Axeman level.
Sea units - a little outdated since Kael and FF both updated the balance of naval units

For the Naval units, I'd be tempted to remove the cloned Serpent/Tortoise and just use the existing monster units, exactly as would spawn normally on the map. Not sure they need Subdue Beast (Serpents and Tortoises are both animals). I'd also rework the strength to match the changes and change Tritons to Optics (where Galleons are now).

That basically leaves you with the amphibious Tritons as transports (carrying thralls or "towing" other Jotnar through the waves I assume?) - though with the serpents/tortoises being slower (the normal forms are only 1:move:), it might be good to give the Triton a unit-spell that adds +2 or +3 movement to those units temporarily (with a 5% chance of wearing off per turn). That would represent him sending his pets off to complete a task, but the longer they are gone, the more likely they are to forget what he said and just amble around slowly again...

====

Thrall Militia may be a little *too* weak overall, and even Egrass might warrant a slight boost (3/5 maybe?). I'd actually suggest a +25% bonus vs Melee for the "Giantkin" promotion - running up and attacking them with a sword is far less sensible than shooting/casting from a distance. It also makes them a little tougher, but still means they'll be stopped in the very early game by an archer...

====

Overall though - I really like it :goodjob:

Overall though - I really like it :goodjob:

Thank you for the feedback ;)

Most of it will be the way you suggest, or similar. I also am trying to figure out how to give 'giantkin' units the ability to make ranged attacks. Throwing rocks or anything heavy at enemies is a little bit classical.

Hmm.. the Jotnar cannot spread religion until Priesthood, but not being able to cross water, at all until Optics seem a little harsh. I'll think about it. Perhaps it fits with their concept. Hmmm, can you give units the ability to only walk shallow water, yet still able to cross oceans if in a boat? Perhaps they can take a walk through non-ocean?

Remember that all giantkin units, if it works, should end up with a +6 basic strength after ~200 turns on normal gamespeed. So a jotnar hill-giant with age 200 would have 12 base strength and not 6. If you click on the giant-kin race in the civilopedia you can see the giantkin promotions, I am not sure why they are not visible anywhere else.

Would be cool to see how Jotnar can be used in PvP. I think Jotnar will be one of those civs you want to attack as soon as you find them on the map.

Triton needs a bit of work, for example I don't want him to be able to walk over desert terrain and I really want him to be able to plant/move fish. Guess we can skip the subdue beast promotion.. there goes the kraken pets.. :)

I am also talking with my wife about granting special powers to the 'Mouth of the divine' depending on what state religion you follow. For example he might be able to cast 'waterwalking' if you follow OO, but if you switch to FoK he can cast 'bloom' and 'stoneskin' with ROK ... something like that.

Remember that all giantkin units, if it works, should end up with a +6 basic strength after ~200 turns on normal gamespeed. So a jotnar hill-giant with age 200 would have 12 base strength and not 6. If you click on the giant-kin race in the civilopedia you can see the giantkin promotions, I am not sure why they are not visible anywhere else.


Ah - must admit I'd forgotten about those. I'd only played far enough to realise that the Hill Giants had the wrong building (which is FF's fault since we changed the name of it). Another very nice mechanic though.

For the actual mechanics of it - are there any giantkin units that *shouldn't* get stronger as they get older? I was just thinking that you could set the prereqs to be "PROMOTION_GIANTKIN" and "CIVILIZATION_JOTNAR" (along with the UnitAge) rather than having to list every unit that's allowed the promotion individually. Looks tidier short term and saves hassle later if a new giant unit is added...

I can actually see the age-promotions in the 'pedia as well, though they may be a good option to hide away as "graphical only", but mention the mechanic on the Giantkin promotion (I think Dwarven Vaults do the same thing). (EDIT: They're listed under Effect, whilst the other is a Race - can't easily do the AutoAcquire for a new race though)

EDIT: I just toyed around with the Seasoned promotion - if you make it graphicalOnly, set the Giantkin promotion's "NextLevel" to be "PROMOTION_JOT_SEASONED_GIANT", set them all to use the same icon and add some brackets, you can get a fairly smooth looking progression "Giantkin", "Giantkin (Seasoned)", "Giantkin (Reknowned)" etc...

Basically the same as it is now, but doesn't stand out - just looks like a single promotion "getting older".

There will be another method to approach the aging in our next release which will be much cleaner than this approach (in terms of adding a new unit) should there actually be a few giantkin who do NOT get every age promotion.

EDIT: Nevermind, already released. PromotionAllows field in Unitinfo can select which age promotions are allowed for each unit, and then you can specify the age promotions as bRequiredPermission

My Wild Trolls have Subdue Animal but I'm not getting any bears/elephants...

I've been using this for a while now. Everything seems to work alright. Needless to say, the skalds are kinda funny looking. Not sure where they found clothes that big.

I don't know if it's FF or Jotnar but my jotnar citizen and giants in general seems to cause CTD now and again. I've yet to manage to recreate one crash but it has always been moving into my own cities or attacking enemy cities.

I don't know if it's FF or Jotnar but my jotnar citizen and giants in general seems to cause CTD now and again. I've yet to manage to recreate one crash but it has always been moving into my own cities or attacking enemy cities.

I can't say I have had this problem. If someone else also reports it, i'll... ehm .. ask Xienwolf how to debug it.. :cool:

That's happened to me once or twice. I haven't been using them lately because 0.40 came out, though.

I seem to be directed to the file "Kopiera till Fall Further 043.7z" which I dont know what to do with? I have tried renaming it to a zip and a exe file with no luck. Can someone help.

That's the file you want. Download that and just copy the assets folder to your FF folder.

I seem to be directed to the file "Kopiera till Fall Further 043.7z" which I dont know what to do with? I have tried renaming it to a zip and a exe file with no luck. Can someone help.

Think you need 7zip, a freeware program. Does the same thing as winzip or winrar, but better.

I seem to be directed to the file "Kopiera till Fall Further 043.7z" which I dont know what to do with? I have tried renaming it to a zip and a exe file with no luck. Can someone help.

(1) Download the software 7zip and install it. It is a really great thing, its like Notepad++, VLC media player or Aida32 .. once you use them you' can't understand how you did without them.

(2) Unpack the 7z file.

(3) Copy the assets folder (that appeared from your unpacking of the file) into your Fall Further 034 folder. -overwrite- your existing assets folder in your Fall Further 034 folder with this new assets folder.

***** Double post *****

Hey, I'm currently trying the big guys, and really enjoying the mecanics ! I could capture Acheron with a singe combat with a troll elder and some city bonus (i think that's his name). The many small cities hurts at the beginning but really work after you get the mills about and each with market makes the money less of a pb.

A few remarks:
+ after declaring nationality with the hill giants, I still could not conquer barbarian cities with them (normal?)
+ I am currently frustrated with some many techs not gicing anything, maybe you could add some special promotion for the currently useless tech (like boulder hurling...)

overall very impressive.

Hey, I'm currently trying the big guys, and really enjoying the mecanics ! I could capture Acheron with a singe combat with a troll elder and some city bonus (i think that's his name). The many small cities hurts at the beginning but really work after you get the mills about and each with market makes the money less of a pb.

A few remarks:
+ after declaring nationality with the hill giants, I still could not conquer barbarian cities with them (normal?)
+ I am currently frustrated with some many techs not gicing anything, maybe you could add some special promotion for the currently useless tech (like boulder hurling...)

overall very impressive.

Thank you for trying Jotnar :)

I have no clue about the Hill Giants. CHECK THIS OUT, NOTE TO SELF: FIXED

And, yes, that would be an interesting idea. What kind of promotion, and at which tech? I can close the Techs off entirely as well, if they are totally useless.

And, yes, that would be an interesting idea. What kind of promotion, and at which tech? I can close the Techs off entirely as well, if they are totally useless.

I'm sure we can propose ideas for promotion althought you seem not to need ideas so far (so many by yourself already !)
I think it woud be a shame for late game to simply disable the techs.

Seems you also missed a worldspell. I'll see if I can come up with something... :)

No worldspell, the Jotnar instaed have a Unique Wonder - The Wall of The Covenant. An very useful thing if you get it out into game early, because it allows expansion without worrying about barbarians.

Would it be possible to get a more detailed account of what to do with this mod? I realize that you are still working it out so I'm a bit hesitant to load it into my main FF folder.

Secondly, and this is a question also for Vehem & maybe Xienwolf, might this race end up in FF like the Scions of Patria did? I asked recently what's up with FfH and I'm getting the impression that FfH is gearing up to be 'complete' in that no new races and the like will be done so it seems to me that FF will sort of be the Next Generation, Deep Space 9, Voyager to FfH's Original Series so to speak. It's just confusing sometimes having to bounce between different mods and it would be nice to have most of it either in FfH or FF.

Another thing I was interested in is the guy (whose tag I cannot remember for the life of me) who did Fall Into Revolution gave up his mod to work on FF, but was going to add a lot of elements of FiRe into FF. One of the bits I like the most was barb cities left alone can sometimes become a new civ. It would seem that the Jotun would make a good candidate for that.

Plus, in some respects, it would be interesting to see a variant of the Jotun as a 'barbarian' race that has no fixed cities and uses the a version of the Mongol Camp unit from the Genghis Khan scenario back in Civ IV: Warlords and thus could roam around the map and still be able to spawn new units. (I wish there was a way to make the Hippus like that as well)

Damnit, now I have pictures in my head of Kael as Kirk... some green trollop on one arm, punching the code with the other arm....



But yes, main FfH is essentially done with adding anything new. It is up to Modmods to keep the flame going :) But that does mean having to make a decision between each of the various options out there sadly. We COULD merge all mod-modders together, but many have different visions of what to do next, and the larger the team, the more organization is required (look at how long it has taken FF to update each time since we added to our team. It is a lot quicker for us to update, but takes ages to quit coming up with new ideas and focus on releasing something)

FiRe is by Jean Elcard, and we are slowly working on getting various elements into the game. One of the major items we wanted to have before that started has just now been initiated, so it'll be a while.

Damnit, now I have pictures in my head of Kael as Kirk... some green trollop on one arm, punching the code with the other arm....

Yeah but that means you get your pick of Trill with neat markings that go all the way down her back or even Rack of 2 to choose from. (Or the Mirror Mirror Major in her black leather :eek:)

We COULD merge all mod-modders together, but many have different visions of what to do next, and the larger the team, the more organization is required (look at how long it has taken FF to update each time since we added to our team. It is a lot quicker for us to update, but takes ages to quit coming up with new ideas and focus on releasing something).

Speaking as an ex-intelligence analyst, I'm thinking it might be nice to have a chart somewhere, be it a Excel spread sheet or a flow chart that would show what the current version of the different mods are and what you need. I mean it seems there is FfH, FF, this Jotun mod, Obis and the like and they all require different things. It would be nice if there was a 'one-stop' shopping page to find out what is need for the major mods. For example, I just found the Obis mod today, but I don't think I can play it since it's back on FfH-2 F patch and that green trollop must be doing wonders for Kael since he's already on patch H! :D

It's funny, I play FfH, FF, Planetfall and RoM...does anyone ever play vanilla Civ? :p

All that would be needed is someone with spare time and a desire to track the mods to start a thread that is always updated with links to the latest version of each mod as well as the version of whatever base files are required to run it.

To clarify matters :)

Working on it!!!

I am not currently working on this. It is in a test phase. I won't be doing anything on it before january and it is basically done. It needs some polishing and that will most likely not be seen until march-april of 2009.

Joining Fall Further!!!

Vehem have agreed to merge Jotnar into Fall Further. When and How are options he have chosen to keep open.

Would it be possible to get a more detailed account of what to do with this mod? I realize that you are still working it out so I'm a bit hesitant to load it into my main FF folder.

Don't be hesitant. It adds another civ to the game, period. It does no mucking about with any other things whatsoever.

If you install it, look at the Civilization info in the civilopedia, I belive I have the most -technically- complete base-info of all the Civs. How does things work, suggestions on how to act vs War, Religion etc.

For a random changelist:
- Countless bugs and flaws, including those mentioned in threads by our brave testers have been fixed.
- City graphics have been handled.
- Everything now downloadable, and pastable in one file. Adding Jotnar onto Fall from Heaven or Fall Further
is now a single step action.
- Jotnar cannot have any other Goverment civic except 'Traditions', which is a Jotnar-only civic.
- Jotnar do not have, and mostly will not have a world spell. But they have a unique wonder, the great wall.
That works similar to the one of vanilla civ.
- Jotnar have a habit of building things large-scale, therefore their windmills and watermills are rather amazing constructs.
Also observe that Jotnar cannot research Machinery.
- Jotnar Units are not built, a Jotnar base unit is spawned randomly with an average of once every twenty turns and with a maximum of two per staedding.
Modified by Armageddon counter. This base unit can be upgraded similar to Grigori's adventurers to various Jotnar units. Notable is that Cyclop units are a
dead-end and that Sea Serpents and Giant Tortoises still are buildable as per normal. Take very good care of your units, and build House of Ancestor early.
A Jotnar base unit spawned in a city with House of the Ancestors gain the promotion Spirit Guide.
- Spawning of Jotnar Citizens are modified in such a way that less and less Jotnar spawned as the Armageddon counter
rises, while more citizens per city are allowed. The giant race gives birth to less and less children.
- Jotnar cannot build City of a thousand slums wonder.
- Culture boost of +50 now working when Jotnar cities -should- grow from 10 --> 11. Jotnar cities are limited to max 10 in size.
- Jotnar now have access to a buildable melee class, Orc Conscripts when armageddon counter reaches 30+. Similar to Axemen yet a little cheaper and
causes no war unhappiness by dying.
- Egrass the Jotnar national hero is reduced to being a 2/6 --> 2/4 at the beginning of the game.
- The Sea-giant, Triton, now have subdue animals and subdue beasts to capture the creatures of the sea.
- All Jotnar units that truly are giants, now carry the promotion 'Giantkin'.
- Seriously turned down the rate of spawned giant citizens (special units that can be upgraded to various units OBS Jotnar cannot build most
units -only- promote them from the jotnar citizens), starting with a 3% per city and turn, and the chance diving steeply downwards as the armageddon
counter rises. A real incitament for Jotnar players to keep down the armageddon counter.
- Jotnar Giant units now age 50/seasoned 100/renowned 200/prominent 300/legendary and increases in strength & defence, the damage from the spellcasters also increase
in potency. Giantkin promotion required.
- New Jotnar Thrall unit graphics, Fixed/Changed Jotnar Berserkers, Archmages and Sea-giants.
- Added two new Leaders, one older Jotnar with more warlike features 'Father Kasghenal' (Financial, Aggressive) and a evil Troll half-breed 'Uxol' (Barbarian,
Arcane, Raiders). Mother Enningas has become Good Alignment - so the Jotnar now have a Good, a Neutral and an Evil leader.
- Nerfed the Jotnar max city size to 8 instaed of 10 and the Jotnar Staedding maintnance modifier to -10%.
- The Father is only Financial/Agressive
- Blocked Archers and all Religious Units except Druid.
- UU Mouth of divine unit, that can spread all religions and is never lost, but have a 6 turn wait on religion spread.

Another thing I was interested in is the guy (whose tag I cannot remember for the life of me) who did Fall Into Revolution gave up his mod to work on FF, but was going to add a lot of elements of FiRe into FF. One of the bits I like the most was barb cities left alone can sometimes become a new civ. It would seem that the Jotun would make a good candidate for that.

FiRe is by Jean Elcard, and we are slowly working on getting various elements into the game. One of the major items we wanted to have before that started has just now been initiated, so it'll be a while.

Barbarians settling down into real civs is going to be a part of Fall Further sooner or later. Probably later, because we don't want to rush things. If we do something, we want to do it right. A simple old FiRe style merge wouldn't be too difficult, but I intend to rewrite big parts of this feature to make it fit FF like a glove. To have the Jotnar available as one of the races, that can spawn in a special way from barbarian cities is certainly an interesting idea.

I have by the way verified that Hill giants cannot conquer Barbarian cities regardless of Hidden Nationality. This will most likely change from a Bug to a Feature and i'll add it to the civ documentation. Jotnar Hill giant, Sea Serpent and Giant Tortoise will change into the 'default' units of the same type and those will be modified in any case. So that all Hill giants will have 'giant kin' and are able to 'age'. So Moe will have Str 10 if he lives to endgame.

Also intend to put some Python in that makes it so that Barbarian AI Hill giants never attacks Jotnar units.

I like the idea of the Jotnar civilization. Very unique! Lots of great ideas went into it.

Difficult for me to play though, as it causes Civ4 to crash frequently on my system. The game will crash most of the time when I load a saved game after the game is already running. At first it happens only sporadically, but by turn 50 it is 100% reliable. Not a big issue as I don't load saved games a lot, but annoying. The game will also crash every 10-30 turns between turns (while AI civilizations are being processed). Not repeatable though: restarting the game it will never crash on the same turn.

I have never had this happen in either FfH or FF, so I am guessing it is related to the Jotnar changes somehow.

A few comments:

Playing in a "Barbarian World" with "Raging Barbarians", thralls simply are not strong enough to hold off the barbarians until the first Citizen is born.

Wild Trolls never seem to turn into Barbarians when enraged, and the "enraged" promotion disappears by itself without combat. Didn't see anything in the documentation about this behavior and they don't have the "Loyalty" promotion, so guessing it isn't intentional.

I saw in another post that Jotnar Citizen rate of appearance is based on the Armageddon counter (higher counter, lower rate). If this so, shouldn't the Jotnar have some way to lower the Armageddon counter similar to the Elohim ritual?

Overall a great civilization, thanks!

I like the idea of the Jotnar civilization. Very unique! Lots of great ideas went into it.

Thank you. I pride myself in being decently original when it comes to creativity, implementation however is entierly thanks to Tal, Xienwolf etc.

Difficult for me to play though, as it causes Civ4 to crash frequently on my system. The game will crash most of the time when I load a saved game after the game is already running. At first it happens only sporadically, but by turn 50 it is 100% reliable. Not a big issue as I don't load saved games a lot, but annoying. The game will also crash every 10-30 turns between turns (while AI civilizations are being processed). Not repeatable though: restarting the game it will never crash on the same turn.

This have been reported, and it happened to me once in five games. I am not sure if it is Jotnar related. If it is, I'd be rather clueless to figure out what it is.

Playing in a "Barbarian World" with "Raging Barbarians", thralls simply are not strong enough to hold off the barbarians until the first Citizen is born.


Build Egrass first thing, Hero with defence 4, then shoot for city walls. Then go to build the wonder Wall of the covenant. Presto you are immune to Barbarians.

Wild Trolls never seem to turn into Barbarians when enraged, and the "enraged" promotion disappears by itself without combat. Didn't see anything in the documentation about this behavior and they don't have the "Loyalty" promotion, so guessing it isn't intentional.

Never used Wild Trolls since very early in Jotnar development. Then they used to go Barbarian quite according to plan. CHECK THIS OUT. NOTE TO SELF. FIXED

I saw in another post that Jotnar Citizen rate of appearance is based on the Armageddon counter (higher counter, lower rate). If this so, shouldn't the Jotnar have some way to lower the Armageddon counter similar to the Elohim ritual?


Nope, they'll just have to suffer. Also they do get some benefits as Armageddon Counter rises. Like building Hired orc axemen cheap when AC hits 30.

Overall a great civilization, thanks!


Happy someone have fun with it. :goodjob:

This have been reported, and it happened to me once in five games. I am not sure if it is Jotnar related. If it is, I'd be rather clueless to figure out what it is.

I barely got into a game and started getting crashes. So I renamed that folder Fall Further 2.043 - Jotun and will try again and see what happens. :(

I do say that I wish that Thrall militia could at least upgrade to axemen or archers, especially if one of your units gets the Hero of Foxford event or a adventurer's promotion due to a dungeon event.

This have been reported, and it happened to me once in five games. I am not sure if it is Jotnar related. If it is, I'd be rather clueless to figure out what it is.


If there are any details I can provide, just let me know.


Build Egrass first thing, Hero with defence 4, then shoot for city walls. Then go to build the wonder Wall of the covenant. Presto you are immune to Barbarians.


Nice theory. Implementation proves more difficult. I'd
tried exactly that the first two games, and got nowhere even
close to the wall of the covenant. Of course, the second I
also had the Illians to contend with, which made it
*completely* hopeless. (shrug) Could just be my rotten luck
the barbarians were so brutal.

--David

Nice theory. Implementation proves more difficult. I'd
tried exactly that the first two games, and got nowhere even
close to the wall of the covenant. Of course, the second I
also had the Illians to contend with, which made it
*completely* hopeless. (shrug) Could just be my rotten luck
the barbarians were so brutal.
--David

Thralls have 2 in defence, with +50% city defence they should be as good at defending cities as a warrior? And they cost 2/3 as much to build?

But, I have gotten whacked by barbarians with other civs as well. And Thralls might get a boost as per Vehems request.

I barely got into a game and started getting crashes. So I renamed that folder Fall Further 2.043 - Jotun and will try again and see what happens. :(

I do say that I wish that Thrall militia could at least upgrade to axemen or archers, especially if one of your units gets the Hero of Foxford event or a adventurer's promotion due to a dungeon event.

HEY HOOO hold your horses!!!

You cannot rename Fall Further anymore without making some changety thingy in a new file that I cannot remember. Having any other name then the designated will cause it to crash.. That is not my fault. That is the FF teams doing.

If there are any details I can provide, just let me know.

Are you renaming your Fall Further as well???

Secondly, and this is a question also for Vehem & maybe Xienwolf, might this race end up in FF like the Scions of Patria did?

Both Tarq and Arctic Circle PM'd me at roughly the same time (a long while ago) and asked if I'd be willing to incorporate both the Scions and the Jotnar into FF once they were completed. My response was that I'd love to once they were finished, stable and fun to play. Tarq finished up first and I think the Scions worked out very nicely. Now it looks like Arctic Circle and the Jotnar are approaching the same point. I've only played a couple of Jotnar games so far - but they're an interesting and alternate way to play and their "stronger as they get older" mechanic (combined with dwindling numbers as the AC increases) is great - you really do have to look after your early units.

You cannot rename Fall Further anymore without making some changety thingy in a new file that I cannot remember. Having any other name then the designated will cause it to crash.. That is not my fault. That is the FF teams doing.


Technically it's BtS's doing. In BtS, the ability to have mod-specific interfaces was added. The problem is that the path to the mod specific interface is relative to the Beyond The Sword Directory, rather than the Mods\Fall Further directory. That means that the name of that directory must match what is in the set in ArtDefines_Misc.xml. We used to point that file at Kael's directory (meaning that Fall Further required Fall from Heaven to be already installed whenever it was run), but since using the installer we point to a copy of it in our own folder (meaning that Fall from Heaven is only ever needed when first installing - after that it doesn't matter).

Short version however is - if the mod doesn't have the normal blue interface - don't rename it's folder unless you know what you're doing. You'll end up with "Failed to find primary theme GFC" or similar errors.

Continuing from my previous post, right now I'm having only a few issues.

Problem the First: If I boot up Civ, in the mods, I can see my Fall Further - Jotor as a separate mode and choosing that and playing seems to work fine. However, I seem to be having the same problems others have in that if save a game and then reload while the game is playing, (say perhaps you want to try something and it doesn't work out and you want to go back a turn) the game tends to crash. However, unlike some others, I don't seem to have any problem with that turn if I restart the game and load from there. I have noticed in Civ in general that reloading while in a game sometimes crashes so I've found that it's better to go back to the main menu load from there.

Problem the Second: Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but I can't seem to build adepts. I have zillions of Jotnar citizens; so much so that I sort of snicker when I see the blurb about it being a rare occurrence.

Problem the Third: Not sure if this is supposed to be this way but I don't understand why it cost something like 365 gold to upgrade a Wild Troll to a Troll Hunter when it costs only 125 or so to take a Jotnar Citizen into one. I would think it would be cheaper to upgrade the Wild Troll. Plus I'll back up whoever said earlier that I've never had a Wild Troll go barbarian on me. However, it is a real pain if they started doing that more since it's so cheap to upgrade Citizens to Wild Trolls.

Problem the Fourth: I can't seem to build missionaries. I don't understand why this is; if you can build human militia, you should be able to build human missionaries. I got a zealot in a dungeon and founded OO but then a few turns later founded RoK. Problem was that OO spread faster than the RoK in my lands! That and I can't spread RoK to my allies.

Problem the Fifth: I am playing Mother E who is listed as being good. However, at the start of the game, she shows up as Neutral. Not a huge problem but irritating since I tend to play my games with 2 good players, 2 neutral players, 2 evil and then the Illians.

Only other issues I have is again, I think the Thrall Militia should be allowed to upgrade to maybe just archers. Since that might mean they'd upgrade to Longbowmen (which might not be what you want) perhaps they could just upgrade to a weak swordsman or maybe a new unit like "Guardian" which would use some sort of spearman (like this: http://forums.civfanatics.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=7595421) which has bonuses to defense.

Secondly, is there a sort of primer for the Jotun...uhm I mean Jotnar? Biggest problem I had with the Scions was I didn't really know what to do with them.

Third is a problem, just a question. If the Jotnar build the Pact of Nilhorn, will those Hill Giants promote? I'm thinking not since I noticed there are two hill giants listed in the Civlopedia.

Sorry for the big post but the wife is on a warpath of doing chores today so I'm not sure when I'll get another chance to post. :p

Are you renaming your Fall Further as well???


No, I am not renaming the folder. Never even occurred to me.

In playing yet another game with the Jotnar, I noticed something new about the game crashing: When the game crashes between turns, I *always* hear the sound of someone circumnavigating the globe for the first time (not me). This was random initially, probably because of other civilizations trading maps. Then happened every single time when a ship went past, and soon after completed its circuit.

It seems so far that I was able to bypass that particular crash by going into the editor, and clearing a line of visibility for my own civilization (Jotnar).

If this isn't Jotnar related, let me know and I can pass on this description to the FF and/or FfH threads if needed.

No, I am not renaming the folder. Never even occurred to me.

In playing yet another game with the Jotnar, I noticed something new about the game crashing: When the game crashes between turns, I *always* hear the sound of someone circumnavigating the globe for the first time (not me). This was random initially, probably because of other civilizations trading maps. Then happened every single time when a ship went past, and soon after completed its circuit.

It seems so far that I was able to bypass that particular crash by going into the editor, and clearing a line of visibility for my own civilization (Jotnar).

If this isn't Jotnar related, let me know and I can pass on this description to the FF and/or FfH threads if needed.

This sounds... hmm I have no idea. Jotnar have nothing special when it comes to Circimnavigating the globe. I can only wish that Xienwolf or someone of the bigshots have some idea why this happens. Kick it upwards please. :sad:

Problem the First: If I boot up Civ, in the mods, I can see my Fall Further - Jotor as a separate mode and choosing that and playing seems to work fine. However, I seem to be having the same problems others have in that if save a game and then reload while the game is playing, (say perhaps you want to try something and it doesn't work out and you want to go back a turn) the game tends to crash. However, unlike some others, I don't seem to have any problem with that turn if I restart the game and load from there. I have noticed in Civ in general that reloading while in a game sometimes crashes so I've found that it's better to go back to the main menu load from there.

Hmm.. how do you see 'Fall Further - Jotnar' if you havn't put it in a folder that is named that? Did you read Vehems post above?

Otherwise this behaviour is interesting and merits a look. I'll check it out, but doubt I can do much, it sounds like a question for the big boys. CHECK IT OUT!! Dismissed


Problem the Second: Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but I can't seem to build adepts. I have zillions of Jotnar citizens; so much so that I sort of snicker when I see the blurb about it being a rare occurrence.

Again, you have to read the documentation. If I missed it, I'll add it. But Jotnar have no adepts. They only have 'mages' and when you have sorcery you can upgrade a Jotnar Citizen into a 'mage'. And those mages are .. different.

Problem the Third: Not sure if this is supposed to be this way but I don't understand why it cost something like 365 gold to upgrade a Wild Troll to a Troll Hunter when it costs only 125 or so to take a Jotnar Citizen into one. I would think it would be cheaper to upgrade the Wild Troll. Plus I'll back up whoever said earlier that I've never had a Wild Troll go barbarian on me. However, it is a real pain if they started doing that more since it's so cheap to upgrade Citizens to Wild Trolls.

FIX THIS!!! NOTE TO SELF!! Fixed

Problem the Fourth: I can't seem to build missionaries. I don't understand why this is; if you can build human militia, you should be able to build human missionaries. I got a zealot in a dungeon and founded OO but then a few turns later founded RoK. Problem was that OO spread faster than the RoK in my lands! That and I can't spread RoK to my allies.

Nope. One of the downsides of the Jotnar. They are slow with this sort of thing. You can only build one sort (or rather upgrade a Jotnar Citizen into one) religious unit. For that you need Priesthood. Trust me, it will be worth it.

Problem the Fifth: I am playing Mother E who is listed as being good. However, at the start of the game, she shows up as Neutral. Not a huge problem but irritating since I tend to play my games with 2 good players, 2 neutral players, 2 evil and then the Illians.

Must be a bug. CHECK THIS OUT!! NOTE TO SELF!! FIXED I can imagine that she is 'slightly good' and due to some alignment system whacko she reverts to neutral.

Only other issues I have is again, I think the Thrall Militia should be allowed to upgrade to maybe just archers. Since that might mean they'd upgrade to Longbowmen (which might not be what you want) perhaps they could just upgrade to a weak swordsman or maybe a new unit like "Guardian" which would use some sort of spearman (like this: http://forums.civfanatics.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=7595421) which has bonuses to defense.

I'll consider it, but its not really in line with my civ idea. Look at Luichurp and their rotten useless warriors.

Secondly, is there a sort of primer for the Jotun...uhm I mean Jotnar? Biggest problem I had with the Scions was I didn't really know what to do with them.

Primer? Have you read the civilization documentation in the Civilopedia?

Third is a problem, just a question. If the Jotnar build the Pact of Nilhorn, will those Hill Giants promote? I'm thinking not since I noticed there are two hill giants listed in the Civlopedia.

Nope. Right now they are vanilla Hill giants. That will change before it joins fall further. When -all- Hill Giants (even wild ones) promote/age.


Sorry for the big post but the wife is on a warpath of doing chores today so I'm not sure when I'll get another chance to post. :p

I love people finding problems. That means we can fix them. I never shoot the messenger. Sorry if I am a little short, there's been a death in the family.

Sorry if I am a little short, there's been a death in the family.

Sorry to hear that - thoughts with you.

Thoughts with you :(

Hmm.. how do you see 'Fall Further - Jotnar' if you havn't put it in a folder that is named that? Did you read Vehems post above?

Yes. I'm not sure what happened, but I relabeled the FF folder and then loaded FF again. So when I pulled up the normal advanced option of loading a mod, the newly created FF and the old FF with the new name both showed up. Of course this was the only way I could load a game. If I tried to load a game say through Microsoft exploring by clicking on the save game and saying 'open' it would error out.

Again, you have to read the documentation. If I missed it, I'll add it. But Jotnar have no adepts. They only have 'mages' and when you have sorcery you can upgrade a Jotnar Citizen into a 'mage'. And those mages are .. different. - Primer? Have you read the civilization documentation in the Civilopedia?

What I mean about a primer might apply to all races and might be applicable to all Civ's in that I'm looking for basic information/strategy's for the race. Some of the Civ's have a bit of that in their basic info as the game starts, but usually it's not enough. Sure, one of the fun parts of the game is finding this out on your own, but sometimes it would be nice to be able to go to a section and see whether or not it's wise to spread the Haunted Lands in your own lands if you're the Scions for example. To many times with a new race, I miss something in the Civlopedia and end up wasting time researching something I don't really need or I don't research something because I normally wait on that tech for most other races.

Okay, first off, this post won't be as good as the one I just finished and then lost due to Firefox sucking so badly (but not as badly as MS Explorer) :mad:

Thralls (historically) were either voluntary indentured 'servants' or were involuntary taken as slaves, but slaves that had a lot more rights than slaves we had here in the U.S. Because they had more rights and were treated better, it wasn't necessary to have all the rigid slavery controls like was needed in the US to keep the slaves scare.

Okay well I'm thinking that withing this framework, you might might want to play around with the ideas that humans living with the Giants are there in the same way the Janissaries were in the Ottoman Turkish empire. Whether the humans ended up with the Giants through voluntary means (you protect us; we'll work for you) or involuntary means (Og don't read good; you keep books for Og and Og not eat you) isn't as important as the fact that it happened.

From what I understand, FfH is based off of Kael's old D&D campaign back in the day. Well back in the day (1974) I was playing D&D and for the most part, most Giants aren't that bright. Oh sure, they can be clever, shrewd and the like, but aren't really into the sort of thinking that is needed to run any sort of empire. Well the Janissaries were not just slave soldiers but also ran the Ottoman Empire in the sense of doing a lot of the admin work. So as the Jotnar Empire grows, someone is doing the books and I'm thinking it would be the humans.

Plus, I doubt that the Giants are out there tilling the Farms or managing the Horse, Sheep or Pig resources. This I see being done by the 'subject' humans. So in a sense, the Jotnar are like the Calibim. The big difference is humans there have the (small) option of catching the eye of a Vampire Overlord and receiving the Vampiric Gift whereas that sort of upward mobility isn't available to the Jotnar.

So you have a ruling class of Giants with lots of humans doing the farming, animal tending, admin work and scut work of things like manning the staeding walls as lookouts. All important work but depending on the alignment of the Giant leader, these humans could be seen as just little Giants and loved and going downhill from there to being basically "house elves" for the Giants.

Okay, to get to the point. I would think that Giant cities would be more susceptible to unrest due to :mad: since even well treated slaves are still not masters of their own destiny. Trust me, I did 17.5 years as a soldier and often times I felt like a slave and wished I could kill my 'overlords' and escape. :p People who've never been in a situation like that don't realize how freeing it is to be able to tell your boss to go screw and walk out without having to worry about going to jail for it.

So I think that the Jotnar (and maybe this might be alignment releated) might have access to certain buildings that are slave related. Perhaps a variant of the Breeding Pit that is a Slave pen. However, I had the idea (if it could be coded) that one way to have Thrall Militia promote would be the Giants would have a variant of the Balseraph Arena. The Jotnar Arena would allow two Thrall Militia (TM) to fight each other; one would die and the other gain experience. Then when a TM got a certain amount of experience, it could promote to a new unit like Swordsmen. You'd probably have to go through a LOT of Thralls to get any sort of body of these troops.

Another thought I had about TM's is since they are 'slave soldiers' that you might be able to sell them via the Undercouncil's slave market and make more money than a standard slave. Since upgrading is so important to the Jotnar, the source of income would be nice.

Another idea is that when Mercenaries become available, TM's would be able to promote to them if they had a certain level of experience or age.

Plus (again civic or alignment depending) I would think that the Jotnar would need some sort of slaver unit like the Taskmaster. Plus, I think captured slaves could be turned into TM's with a small amount of gold.

Another idea is that in old Nordic tradition, thralls would only be allowed weapons when the city was under attack. Perhaps you should do away with the Jotnar worker and Thrall Militia could be workers that can gain experience and the like normal workers but can also attack/defend. Since the Thrall's AF is so small, I think this could work. Either that, or give TM's the ability to improve like workers but they wouldn't be as good as normal workers since they wouldn't be able to get the promotions that enables them to work faster. That would seem to me to be about right since slaves tend not to work as fast/well as freedmen.

Again you can play around with the subject folks as semi-slaves. I would think that the alignment of the leader would have a big impact on how the humans in the staeding are treated. I'm sure under Mother E the humans are respected while under the Evil leader there is always the danger of being used as a play toy for drunken Giants amusement at the dinner table. :eek:

Another question/suggestion:

What is the status of Ogres? I would think that you could steal a lot of the ogre animations for some of the 'low' level Jotnar grunts. I mean in classic D&D Ogres were pretty much the smallest of the giantkin. Since they aren't HUGE, I could see them filling in some of the early unit roles like Swordsmen.

Oh and in an earlier post you mentioned the weak Lurchirp warriors. True, but at least they can upgrade to slingers which would be fine by me. Considering that 'classic' giantkin ranged attack is chucking big rocks, having human slingers seems appropriate. :lol:

Yes. I'm not sure what happened, but I relabeled the FF folder and then loaded FF again. So when I pulled up the normal advanced option of loading a mod, the newly created FF and the old FF with the new name both showed up. Of course this was the only way I could load a game. If I tried to load a game say through Microsoft exploring by clicking on the save game and saying 'open' it would error out.

Ehm. I am not sure about that. But I always start the game by going into the folder and clicking on the icon (after first making sure it points to the right mod).

If it works for you its good. I always feel, when I feel I'd might have done something bad. I always delete and reinstall. Saves time.

What I mean about a primer might apply to all races and might be applicable to all Civ's in that I'm looking for basic information/strategy's for the race. Some of the Civ's have a bit of that in their basic info as the game starts, but usually it's not enough. Sure, one of the fun parts of the game is finding this out on your own, but sometimes it would be nice to be able to go to a section and see whether or not it's wise to spread the Haunted Lands in your own lands if you're the Scions for example. To many times with a new race, I miss something in the Civlopedia and end up wasting time researching something I don't really need or I don't research something because I normally wait on that tech for most other races.


I hope you are not dissapointed in the Jotnar? Have you read the civilopedia?

List anything you find lacking and I'll add it.

Okay, first off, this post won't be as good as the one I just finished and then lost due to Firefox sucking so badly (but not as badly as MS Explorer) :mad:

I always write long stuff in Notepad++, or at least do a CTRL+A and CTRL+C before I click submit. Words from the wise.

Thralls (historically) were either voluntary indentured 'servants' or were involuntary taken as slaves, but slaves that had a lot more rights than slaves we had here in the U.S. Because they had more rights and were treated better, it wasn't necessary to have all the rigid slavery controls like was needed in the US to keep the slaves scare.

Okay well I'm thinking that withing this framework, you might might want to play around with the ideas that humans living with the Giants are there in the same way the Janissaries were in the Ottoman Turkish empire. Whether the humans ended up with the Giants through voluntary means (you protect us; we'll work for you) or involuntary means (Og don't read good; you keep books for Og and Og not eat you) isn't as important as the fact that it happened.

From what I understand, FfH is based off of Kael's old D&D campaign back in the day. Well back in the day (1974) I was playing D&D and for the most part, most Giants aren't that bright. Oh sure, they can be clever, shrewd and the like, but aren't really into the sort of thinking that is needed to run any sort of empire. Well the Janissaries were not just slave soldiers but also ran the Ottoman Empire in the sense of doing a lot of the admin work. So as the Jotnar Empire grows, someone is doing the books and I'm thinking it would be the humans.

Plus, I doubt that the Giants are out there tilling the Farms or managing the Horse, Sheep or Pig resources. This I see being done by the 'subject' humans. So in a sense, the Jotnar are like the Calibim. The big difference is humans there have the (small) option of catching the eye of a Vampire Overlord and receiving the Vampiric Gift whereas that sort of upward mobility isn't available to the Jotnar.

So you have a ruling class of Giants with lots of humans doing the farming, animal tending, admin work and scut work of things like manning the staeding walls as lookouts. All important work but depending on the alignment of the Giant leader, these humans could be seen as just little Giants and loved and going downhill from there to being basically "house elves" for the Giants.

Okay, to get to the point. I would think that Giant cities would be more susceptible to unrest due to :mad: since even well treated slaves are still not masters of their own destiny. Trust me, I did 17.5 years as a soldier and often times I felt like a slave and wished I could kill my 'overlords' and escape. :p People who've never been in a situation like that don't realize how freeing it is to be able to tell your boss to go screw and walk out without having to worry about going to jail for it.



I've PM'd you about this. Personal army stuff. :)

So I think that the Jotnar (and maybe this might be alignment releated) might have access to certain buildings that are slave related. Perhaps a variant of the Breeding Pit that is a Slave pen. However, I had the idea (if it could be coded) that one way to have Thrall Militia promote would be the Giants would have a variant of the Balseraph Arena. The Jotnar Arena would allow two Thrall Militia (TM) to fight each other; one would die and the other gain experience. Then when a TM got a certain amount of experience, it could promote to a new unit like Swordsmen. You'd probably have to go through a LOT of Thralls to get any sort of body of these troops.

Another thought I had about TM's is since they are 'slave soldiers' that you might be able to sell them via the Undercouncil's slave market and make more money than a standard slave. Since upgrading is so important to the Jotnar, the source of income would be nice.

Another idea is that when Mercenaries become available, TM's would be able to promote to them if they had a certain level of experience or age.

Plus (again civic or alignment depending) I would think that the Jotnar would need some sort of slaver unit like the Taskmaster. Plus, I think captured slaves could be turned into TM's with a small amount of gold.

Well. Basically, the Jotnar are quite civilized and the human 'Thralls' are often more free and have a more benign goverment then most of their neighbours. They are even spiritually allowed to be part of the Jotnar 'legend' which means that roughly they can be reborn as Jotnar when they die (or at least a part of them linger on). I understand what you are saying, but most of it goes against what I think of Jotnar society.

Also. Lets give the 'slavery' societies their uniqueness. If I implement something like that it would be totally unique. Not buildings from other civs, or something that resembles other civs units.

And working the fields, building roads, tending to animals are a work of love for the Jotnar. They are very much the land that they live on, and once they settle in a Staedding they often live there for the rest of their lives. And that can be a very, very long time. Most Jotnar fields, watermills etc are giant-sized. Humans would do little good there. Or so I feel.

Another idea is that in old Nordic tradition, thralls would only be allowed weapons when the city was under attack. Perhaps you should do away with the Jotnar worker and Thrall Militia could be workers that can gain experience and the like normal workers but can also attack/defend. Since the Thrall's AF is so small, I think this could work. Either that, or give TM's the ability to improve like workers but they wouldn't be as good as normal workers since they wouldn't be able to get the promotions that enables them to work faster. That would seem to me to be about right since slaves tend not to work as fast/well as freedmen.

Again you can play around with the subject folks as semi-slaves. I would think that the alignment of the leader would have a big impact on how the humans in the staeding are treated. I'm sure under Mother E the humans are respected while under the Evil leader there is always the danger of being used as a play toy for drunken Giants amusement at the dinner table. :eek:

I could imagine that one can consider something, slaverish, if and only if the civ turns evil. But then it have to be something decently simple, and decently unique. Perhaps a unique ritual (repeatable) that you can build 'Gather up the Thralls' that reduces the city population with 4, gives a temporary number of unhappy (a low number) and yields a certain number of gold (a high number). I see the evil Jotnar could regard the humans a little like useful cattle, or worst as vermin.

Another question/suggestion:

What is the status of Ogres? I would think that you could steal a lot of the ogre animations for some of the 'low' level Jotnar grunts. I mean in classic D&D Ogres were pretty much the smallest of the giantkin. Since they aren't HUGE, I could see them filling in some of the early unit roles like Swordsmen.

Oh and in an earlier post you mentioned the weak Lurchirp warriors. True, but at least they can upgrade to slingers which would be fine by me. Considering that 'classic' giantkin ranged attack is chucking big rocks, having human slingers seems appropriate. :lol:

I've chosen to leave Ogre's out for now. But I'll remember to look at their movement-file (can't remember how its called).

Always remember that Thralls can have Spirit guide, you can build a heap of Thralls, put them in a city with barracks, training yard and let them sit. When the time is right you can mass-sacrifice them and have all the exp go into other Jotnar units.

All 'Giantkin' Units will have ranged combat in the last edition..

Thank to those that raised concern. Its rather tough, and I'm hosting a party tomorrow. Well well.

All 'Giantkin' Units will have ranged combat in the last edition..

Need to be careful with that - it's a major balancing act, especially if you're adding it to an entire race. Personally I'm not sure they need to throw rocks, or at most maybe a particular group of giants might do it. Having all giants able to use it changes they way they work quite fundamentally...

Well I understand where you are going with the Jotnar in the sense that these giants seem to be more the Giants out of The Chronicles of the Unbeliever in that they seem to be nicer and wiser. Cool.

However, from what I've seen of the game so far, that sort of jives with the units. I mean the Hill Giants start off with the hidden nationality because they 'mimic' the 'classic' Hill Giant in that they are barbarians. The concept of a "Wild" troll for the first unit you really get with some teeth tends to harken to the 'classic' idea of the giantkin being not so nice.

It's your mod, so it's not my place to say one way or another. However you might want to play around with the Jotnar in the same way the Elves are. Maybe instead of having just one Jotnar race with three leaders, maybe they could be two. The Jotnar with the good and neutral leaders like the Lojolsofar and then you could have the evil Jotun like the Svartalfar. Then you could have a lot of the stuff I mention only for the evil Jotun.

Sure it's more work, but I think from your description, the Jotnar could be sort of like the Elohim in working for peace and harmony while the Jotun could be more like the Calibim (even though many of their unique buildings would be like the Balseraphs). Plus, the advantage of having the Janissary population for the evil Jotun would be it would allow your few Giants to be able to run around raiding and pillaging which is sort of a traditional Giantkin thing in 'classic' fantasy anyways.

Besides, I think part of the fun of games like FfH/FF is you get to play around with the Good vs. Evil and the like.