Probably a pipe dream at high levels, but a funny idea nonetheless.

I've always wanted a way to reliably bulb the "bottom path" of metal casting/machinery/guilds to gain access to viable workshops and the better medieval units early, but it seems the only way to do this is with engineers, which are nigh impossible to attain as great people in the early goings :(. Is there any way to crank medieval units out early via bulbs (outside the well-worn machinery bulb for xbows?), or was that made impossible for game balance reasons (which i'd have to say i'd understand)?

Play as an Industrious Philosophical civ.

The only early wonder that give GE GPPs are mids and HG, both available fairly early and both boosted by stone. Math (which opens HG) is an essential early tech, and Masonry is available very early (and will usually be prioritized if you have stone available). So, theoretically, you might go Oracle in city A (2 GProphet points), chop/whip forge in city B, run a GE immediately (3 GE points), get mids and HG ASAP in city B (2 GE points each). This gives 7 GE points in city B, and 2 GP points in city A. Your First GP will be a GE if you get the forge/engineer up fast enough (5 turns?). There's probably no way to avoid a GP as your third. If you build the Shwedagon Paya in city A or C, you can run pacifism for 100% GP birth rate.

Of course, getting 2 or 3 production cities up fast enough is the challenge, although it seems doable. GProphets are excellent when settled for :gold: and :hammers:, for building the shrine if you found (or capture the holy city of) a religion, or for bulbing down the religious tech line (they can also be used to bulb civil service).

Metal Casting and Guilds can also be bulbed with a GM, so early GLighthouse and Colossus for 4 GM gpps, caste system (CoL from Oracle) in a high seafood city (GPfarm or capital) for running as many early GMs as possible. When boosted by Pacifism from Shwedagon Paya, you should be able to crank out lots of GMs pretty quickly. GMs bulb currency first (very useful), then MC (since banking, econ, and corp aren't open yet), CoL (done via Oracle already), Mining (done), constitution (not enabled), wheel (done), Alphabet (trade or research), Pottery (done), Sailing (done), Paper/RR/Indust (not enabled), Monarchy, CS, Guilds.

Of course, saying it is one thing, doing it is another. ;) Also, I don't have the tech tree in front of me. But without industrious and stone, it seems like a stretch. But it might be doable at monarch with stone and copper, a bunch of trees, and a strong prod/seafood capital, even if you're not industrious. (Gold to boost Shwedagon Paya for early pacifism would also be a bonus).

Any wonder whores out there (besides me :lol: ) who want to give it a shot?

Play as an Industrious Philosophical civ.

that leader doesn't exist for the very reason you would want them too

I've always been a huge fan of building oracle no matter what for the metal casting (or some rush tech) boost. That right there makes it worth it anyway. I will say that I'm not a big fan of burning GE or GM for techs like machinery. They are too valuable for that.

Plus you're forgetting that you still need to get expensive techs like iron working, horseback riding, and feudalism (which requires the redundant SE tech monarchy). Probably best to rush macemen through code of laws (plus you get beuacracy and caste system to power your SE). In fact you can easily use oracle for code of laws (I still prefer it for metal casting which you still need for maces)

Basically, I've wanted this for ages. But basically the situation you describe is you play as a philosophical leader and luck out and get stone. Build the pyramids and hanging gardens. Tech through metal casting run an engineer off a forge. That will give you the two GEs you need to bulb machinery and engineering. With trebs/pikes/xbows/swords/axes/cats you can do a lot of damage and at lower levels the AI may not have longbows yet. Heck you probably only need 1 GE if you can hit it really early. Xbows are poorly countered by every unit pre-hbriding/feudalism.

Play as an Industrious Philosophical civ.

So the answer is no :(. Got it. Thanks. I looked pretty hard at the bulbing priorities and didn't see anything that wouldn't require luck and heavy (even cumbersome) gpp manipulation for what would barely speed up just teching them normally using scientists...

I've always been a huge fan of building oracle no matter what for the metal casting (or some rush tech) boost. That right there makes it worth it anyway. I will say that I'm not a big fan of burning GE or GM for techs like machinery. They are too valuable for that.

Plus you're forgetting that you still need to get expensive techs like iron working, horseback riding, and feudalism (which requires the redundant SE tech monarchy). Probably best to rush macemen through code of laws (plus you get beuacracy and caste system to power your SE). In fact you can easily use oracle for code of laws (I still prefer it for metal casting which you still need for maces)

I've found that route too weak...I see far greater utility making 10-15 axes and pretending I'm shaka.

I guess there's just no easy way to get to this tech path, and there's probably a reason for that (RIGGED). I thought maybe someone had something cool though, like early AD gunpowder/lib that's out there etc.

I can often easily blow out the AI with medieval troops on emperor but on immortal I seem 2 steps too slow. Maybe my micro is just too weak and I could be teching faster. Likely though, the window is just too small unless I play marathon, which I do not have patience for quite honestly :mischief:.

Er, oracle is 150 hammers, axes are 35. That's a little more than 4 axes. Those do make a difference if you make them early enough.

TheMeInTeam,

What if you produced the Oracle in the same city you produced the Pyramids and Hanging Gardens and your Forge+Engineer specialist?

Lets see if I'm doing my math right:
+2 GEP from Pyramids
+3 GEP from the Forge-Engy Specialist
+2 GPP from the Oracle
+2 GEP from the Hanging Gardens

That's +9 Great Person Points per turn, and only 2 of them being Prophet points. Or a 22% chance to get a Great Prophet. Probably higher for your 2nd Great Person because chances are you'll probably have built the Oracle but have some delay between your forge (not much) as well as a large delay before completing the Hanging Gardens.

Hmm, how do great persons work in a PA/Team? Are they individually calculated, or when Team Member 1 gets a GP, does Team Member 2's required Great Person Points increase? I'm wondering if you and I, working together in tandom, could pull off something like this utilizing the above techniques in a team game.

Kesshi,

Great People Chances are determined by amount of sources, not amount of points. Therefore, with those options, you will be running 3 engineer sources and one prophet source. This will result in a prophet chance of 25% (as opposed to ~22%).

In team games, GPP are individual, not team-based.

Kesshi,

Great People Chances are determined by amount of sources, not amount of points. Therefore, with those options, you will be running 3 engineer sources and one prophet source. This will result in a prophet chance of 25% (as opposed to ~22%).

In team games, GPP are individual, not team-based.

Is that true? It seems kind of...odd. You could in theory build something like the hanging gardens in a city then run 6 scientists there, and have a 50/50 chance at an engineer with each GP? Not really useful to the strategy in this particular thread, but if true that's kind of interesting.

Kesshi,

Great People Chances are determined by amount of sources, not amount of points. Therefore, with those options, you will be running 3 engineer sources and one prophet source. This will result in a prophet chance of 25% (as opposed to ~22%).

In team games, GPP are individual, not team-based.

The "sources" method is how the chances of each type of GP is determined in vanilla and Warlords. It was changed in BtS to be the more intuitive method based on GPP points, so a city with the NE, Oracle and 2 scientists would have 2 GA GPPs, 4 GP GPPs and 12 GS GPPs and the chances of each, in BtS, would be in proportion 2:4:12 which is 11% GA, 22% GP and 66% GS. In Warlords the same city would have 25%, 25%, and 50% chances for the respective GP types.

I decided to play the strategy that I roughly outlined above to see how it might work out. I didn't work up any detailed plan, just sort of went by the seat of my pants. I didn't make any screen caps or keep notes, but I can go through the log for specifics if anyone is interested.

I used MadScientist's current Roosevelt RPC game for the test, since it uses an industrious leader with stone and marble within reach (my favorite setup, other than having them in the BFC :lol: ). I didn't pop any techs from huts.

I went for a basic Oracle/MC sling, getting some worker techs and then going to PH, followed by pottery to open up MC. Opening build order was something like WB/WB/worker/settler/WB(for 2nd city)/settler/stonehenge. I probably should have skipped SH as it adds GP pollution (although it worked out just fine). In my second city (settled on the stone) I built the GL and Colossus (both have GM points). In the capital I built SH, mids, HG. In a third city I built/chopped the Oracle. I ran forges in all 3 cities after getting MC, with an engineer specialist in the capital (for 9 gpps: 2 GP, 7 GE). Popped an engineer in the capital and used him for machinery. Researched CoL and switched to caste, ran GMs in 2nd city (which had 4 GM points from the 2 wonders already). 2nd gp was a GM, used to bulb most of CS. In the meantime I built the Shwedagon Paya and GLib in the capital, the Parth in city 3. 3rd gp was another GE, used to bulb most of engineering (after researching construction). Next out was another GM, used to bulb feudalism (after trading for Monarchy). Another GM was used for guilds (after researching paper). So I had guilds, eng, mach, CS by around 300 AD. I have no idea whether that's "good" or not, but I'm sure it could be improved by someone (not me :lol:) who's good at mm and with better planning of wonder/tech path.

I'm way ahead in this game, having won the lib race (steel), won the circumnavigation bonus. I'm currently heading towards astro (to leverage the GLH/TRE) and rifling. The other civs are still researching feudalism/CS. I took out Darius with maces/knights/trebs/cannon. I founded Confucianism and built the shrine with a GP from the "pollution" in my capital, and captured the Islamic holy city from Darius. The game is essentially over. So this seems like a promising strat to me. I haven't really tried to speed up the gp production by building NE or running pacifism (both of which I could have easily done). The Parth was the only gp accelerant, and I still got all the ones I was looking for.:crazyeye:

edit: BTW, I also built AW, UoS, ND, and I have a GE waiting (if I need him) for the Taj. I captured SM and Hagia Sophia from Darius.:p

How many cities did you get out byt 300 AD though? My problem with heavy wonder spam for GPP is that on emperor/immortal it'll get you boxed in, and having knights won't help if it's 3 knights against their 10 axemen and 6 spears :(.

Hm- how about playing as a Philo civ and bulbing Civil Service with merchants? I have no idea what you have to block out though. Should be fine to not research Priesthood so Monarchy line is closed and you'lll have currency obviously.

Hm- how about playing as a Philo civ and bulbing Civil Service with merchants? I have no idea what you have to block out though. Should be fine to not research Priesthood so Monarchy line is closed and you'lll have currency obviously.

What good does CS do alone?

What good does CS do alone?

Diamondeye,

I think he's suggesting that you bulb Machinery in there somewhere else. But that's just an assumption. I'm thinking that the thought process is that Macemen will be superior to Gunpowder due to the promotions available and how much quicker you could reach it.

However, we've strayed far off the original goal TheMeInTeam intended; to bulb positive hammer production techs for Workshops early on.

Diamondeye,

I think he's suggesting that you bulb Machinery in there somewhere else. But that's just an assumption. I'm thinking that the thought process is that Macemen will be superior to Gunpowder due to the promotions available and how much quicker you could reach it.

However, we've strayed far off the original goal TheMeInTeam intended; to bulb positive hammer production techs for Workshops early on.

It's ok though, at this point the thread is pretty open to any non-lib bulbing strategies that are viable. It doesn't look like what I was after is feasible under normal circumstances.

However, I don't find macemen superior to gunpowder units at all. I'd take trebs/muskets over trebs maces almost always.

It's ok though, at this point the thread is pretty open to any non-lib bulbing strategies that are viable. It doesn't look like what I was after is feasible under normal circumstances.

However, I don't find macemen superior to gunpowder units at all. I'd take trebs/muskets over trebs maces almost always.

TheMeInTeam,

Given a situation where both are available, I think I may agree with you. However if we're on the subject of starting fresh and bulbing to a mid-military tech as early as possible I believe that Macemen might have an advantage because CS+Machinary is available earlier than Gunpowder. But by how much? I don't know. I almost never bulb anything. But I think Macemen should be available about 1000 years earlier than Musketmen.

Although, doesn't some Civ have a Musket UU that moves two spaces at a time? (Or am I mixing that up with the Redcoat Riflemen UU?) Getting your Gunpowder UU in the early AD, or better the late BC, would catapult you to an incredible "start."

French musketeer has 2 moves. The other musket UU's can be ridiculous too (janissaries get +25% against mounted, archery, and melee, making them outstrip any medieval unit easily, and the oromos start with DRILL II!).

It's true that maces come sooner, but they're not what matters in medieval warfare anyway. Anytime I want to fight in the middle ages, the priority tech is not a CS/Machinery combo, it's engineering. Trebs get CR also, they bombard nicer than cats, and a CR II treb has decent odds against longbows (and unlike maces, there is no hard counter to a unit defending against a treb in a city). Screw all that though, they offer collateral damage at good odds. THAT'S what makes them the best medieval offensive unit. So what to protect them with? Pikes and crossbows, both conveniently on the same tech or tech path. Nothing beats pikes/xbows while they defend in the field, nothing medieval really holds up well to a halfway decent treb count defending. You better believe drill xbows can clean up wounded city defenders.

It's not like I ignore maces entirely but I find them overrated personally.

Diamondeye,

However, we've strayed far off the original goal TheMeInTeam intended; to bulb positive hammer production techs for Workshops early on.

Not just workshops:


I've always wanted a way to reliably bulb the "bottom path" of metal casting/machinery/guilds to gain access to viable workshops and the better medieval units early...(snip) Is there any way to crank medieval units out early via bulbs ...

Knowing TMIT's playing style, I'd guess he was primarily looking for the better units, with the added :hammers: for workshops as a bonus.

How many cities did you get out byt 300 AD though? My problem with heavy wonder spam for GPP is that on emperor/immortal it'll get you boxed in, and having knights won't help if it's 3 knights against their 10 axemen and 6 spears :(.

At least 6 cities, I believe probably more like 8. I was held back primarily because I wanted to wonderspam, but there's no reason why you couldn't rex quite fast. I put out 3 early production-oriented cities, one of which was only used for the Oracle and then started spamming settlers, workers, and units (axes initially). Also, the Mad FDR map is not all that production-oriented. It's basically a bunch of small continents, and the only other civ FDR has contact with before optics is Darius. TBH, he hasn't been much help in this game (other than building a bunch of new cities for me :lol: ). I only traded him alspabet+meditation for monarchy. Other than that, I've left him so far in the dust that he doesn't have anything to trade (he got feud after I did, and beelined DR to found Islam). FDR's island has maybe 5 good city sites, and I settled all of them early, plus 3-4 1-tile islands with seafood (which work great with the GLH), and 3 cities on Darius island (to grab wine, gold, and whales). The other AI's have been limited in warring with each other due to being on separate islands (accessible to each other via galley, though). I had no trouble cranking out trebs, maces, and knights for the war with Darius. On a 2-continents map with coastal capital, this could have been done much faster: more AI trading for backfills, easier warring (galleys suck :p). Setting up your cities to produce GMs and GEs isn't that tough (especially GMs, which are both easy - with caste - and useful - :gold:), and getting currency and CoL relatively early is very useful for rexing. Using the NE and pacifism (which I didn't - :smoke: ) would get more of these gp out faster.

It's definitely doable with a philosophical civ as you don't need only GEs. You can use a GS or two to lightbulb Machinery and Engineering and save your GE for guilds/feudalism. IIRC Machinery and Engineering will be chosen by a GS as long as you stay clear of civil service (paper), meditation or CoL (philosophy) and have researched calendar/maths/aesthetics/alphabet which you'd probably want anyway.

One way would be to get the Oracle via Polytheism (means you can get CoL for courthouses) -> take MC -> get a GS or two to lightbulb Machinery and Engineering after Alphabet/Aesthetics and some tech trading -> get a GE or two from your forge and/or Pyramids and/or HG and lightbulb Feudalism and Guilds. It's been a long time since I tried this though, so do some research before starting a game.

Edit: Think you need Compass in there before machinery if you want to use GSs. You could go for early Compass instead of the usual Alphabet/Aestetics and use it as a trading chip to get most of the above techs as it's not a big priority for the AI, you should have monopoly on it.

It's definitely doable with a philosophical civ as you don't need only GEs. You can use a GS or two to lightbulb Machinery and Engineering and save your GE for guilds/feudalism. IIRC Machinery and Engineering will be chosen by a GS as long as you stay clear of civil service (paper), meditation or CoL (philosophy) and have researched calendar/maths/aesthetics/alphabet which you'd probably want anyway.

One way would be to get the Oracle via Polytheism (means you can get CoL for courthouses) -> take MC -> get a GS or two to lightbulb Machinery and Engineering after Alphabet/Aesthetics and some tech trading -> get a GE or two from your forge and/or Pyramids and/or HG and lightbulb Feudalism and Guilds. It's been a long time since I tried this though, so do some research before starting a game.

Edit: Think you need Compass in there before machinery if you want to use GSs. You could go for early Compass instead of the usual Alphabet/Aestetics and use it as a trading chip to get most of the above techs as it's not a big priority for the AI, you should have monopoly on it.

Wow, I didn't realize certain thing blocked typical GS techs and made it possible. Early Engineering would be pretty sound.

Iron Working blocks compass BTW, although delaying IW could be dangerous. As you said though, the AI tends to get it late

I'm going to have to play with this a bit and see.

I'd of course like guilds for the workshop hammers, BUT, if it's possible to get just trebs early then it's possible to open a pretty big medieval window. I'm going to study the bulb list some more considering what I can block to bulb with GS's. Thanks :).

Edit: They'll bulb IW before engineering :lol:. It's still worth a shot for me on those maps where the AI's are around but out of axe-rush range.

How awesome would it be to have a 3 pronged strategy based on AI starting distance. Rush if close, bulb engineering if you need to REX a bit first, or rifling (or gren/cannon) if isolated :lol:. Too bad lack of resources could interfere. It's still a funny thought though.

I rather often play an Engi early tactic, although I don't plan bulbs to fit perfectly. In my experience, selfteching can prove efficient enough. I mainly do this as Tokugawa or Charlemagne, who has the most to win by going Engi fast. Grabbing Machinery early is nice for China aswell, and any of the three civs UUs coupled with trebs are deadly (since basically, none of them has a really early counter).

Oh, and TMIT, concerning production, why don't you use AP for that ? ;)

I rather often play an Engi early tactic, although I don't plan bulbs to fit perfectly. In my experience, selfteching can prove efficient enough. I mainly do this as Tokugawa or Charlemagne, who has the most to win by going Engi fast. Grabbing Machinery early is nice for China aswell, and any of the three civs UUs coupled with trebs are deadly (since basically, none of them has a really early counter).

Oh, and TMIT, concerning production, why don't you use AP for that ? ;)

Hehe, you can't do everything, especially emperor +. Theology would slow me down from getting the early treb attack window, and it would let GS's bulb paper ;).

I keep asking specific questions like this because they're like tools in a tool kit. I won't be able to use any of them in every game, but as I play more I see situations where the tools work. This goes all the way back to intercontinental astronomy warfare (which a lot of people actually advised against, saying they preferred waiting for industrialism or flight, while I've been able to pull off crushing attacks off frigates/galleons as soon as I get a grenadier or rifle stack, and in some cases sooner!).

It's impossible to become better at everything at once, so I just pick things!

It's not like I ignore maces entirely but I find them overrated personally.

TheMeInTeam,

Interesting. If I focus, I can get Macemen before every AI has Longbowmen. I usually only make a detour over to Music to bulb Theology. With Macemen, pre-Longbowmen, I can walk right through enemy cities without waiting for catapults or even pikemen to assist. Axemen aren't much trouble either, even when fortified behind cultural defenses. At least not for a CR2 Maceman. All it takes in one GG + a Barracks in my military city to manage that setup. And I usually have that from my first axeman or swordsman war rush. Then again, I usually play more crowded maps where I've had upwards of 20 cities by 0ad (typically only half that.) The beautiful thing about this is that it works with most any leader, too. Nothing special is necessary.

Okay, that aside, I wonder which would be more optimal, bulbing to Gunpowder as the French (isn't Louie Industrial?) or targeting Engineering for Trebs as a Philosophical leader.

I think this'll gives me something to play around with for a while. I look forward to hearing about your experiments with these attempts.

I'd take engineering. Muskets are great stack support but they need something to bring down the defenses. I guess you could use spies but if you're bulbing that hard it will probably be a bit tight getting enough EP to consistently incite revolts as you go.

Trebs are extremely powerful. CR II trebs will cut right through non-protective AIs like nothing, even after longbows.

Granted, playing a crowded map and shooting for maces via bulbs while the AI fights over land and then curb stomping them all would probably make maces superior to engineering, but then if the map is really crowded you can do some pretty game-breaking things with a massive axe rush or something. To clarify I want to know how to bulb this stuff well, but that doesn't mean I'll do it when an AI capitol spawns 9 tiles away from me and I have copper ;).

I have to agree with TMIT, maces are overrated. Engineering has priority over CS both because of the units it unlocks, the prerqs, and the AI tech priorities.

Trebs paired with pikes and crossbows can be lethal if you bring enough trebs. They will have fine odds against Longbows barring hills and/or protective and cut through anything else from the medieval age like butter. Then crossbows with Combat and Pikes with Combat or CR can mop up the rest.

This tactic is ofcourse iron-dependant.

On the original topic of how to get early engineering:

Both engineering and machinery can be bulbed with a GS. This approach pretty much requires a non-coastal start (as you will see). Here are the requirements:
- you must NOT tech fishing (to block out sailing, calendar, compass, optics)
- you must NOT tech meditation (to block Philosophy).
- you must have masonry (to bulb machinery), writing, math, wheel, alphabet, aesthetics, IW, MC.

This does not seem like much of a stretch to me. GS are easy to get, and 2 of them will bulb all but a couple of turns of machinery and engineering. Getting MC from the oracle would be a big early boost for this strat, and MC is very useful for extra :hammers: for warring. All of the other techs that you need are ones that you would normally research anyway (except perhaps aesthetics, but it's cheap, and good trade bait). Alphabet is easily traded for. On an inland start, all you're giving up is calendar. There are no requirements for wonders, other than the oracle (and that can be skipped if you have the :science: to research MC manually).

Guilds is a tougher nut to crack. It can be bulbed with a GM, GE (after eng), or a GA (not practical, as it's too far down the list). GMs are easy to get with caste. The pre-reqs for a GM are currency, MC, CoL, Monarchy, CS, and feudalism. We can assume that MC is already in the bag (via the GS eng bulb path), and if I were warmongering I'd be prioritizing CoL and Currency. If you get a good GP farm running 4-5 merchants, you should be able to get 2 of them to pop CS and guilds. OFC, you need feud for guilds, but if you happen to pop a GE, he will bulb feud once mach/eng are in the bag. Or you can trade for it. You'd still need HBR for knights, but it's cheap at that point.

How many cities did you get out byt 300 AD though? My problem with heavy wonder spam for GPP is that on emperor/immortal it'll get you boxed in, and having knights won't help if it's 3 knights against their 10 axemen and 6 spears :(.

7 cities by 70 BC. At that point, I was just cranking out wonders (GL, Path, Shwed Paya, ND). BTW, 1763 domination victory, 113K points (personal best :) ).

Hey guys,

I've been toying with using great persons to bulb my way to Gunpowder, but I just can't get it to work efficiently. I chose DeGaule as my leader, because he's French for the useful UU, as well as Industrious for the quick wonders. I've tried beelining to it, and by the time I get to the point where I can research Education, I can get nearly 3 Great Scientists. Probably more if I focus. However my Great Scientists don't want to bulb Education and Gunpowder. Instead they want to bulb things like Alphabet. I tried backfilling a few things, but that didn't work out too well, as each time I backfilled, there was something else taking its place and ultimately I just gave up on the great persons.

If I beelined to Gunpowder, I could probably get it by about 500ad. Where as if I focused on bulbing things on my way there, I could probably get it by about 1200AD but I would have a lot of extra techs.

I need a little help here. I'm new to bulbing, and not quite sure what I should be doing to make this work.

Gunpowder is a bad animal to bulb by it self ( you can bulb it both with a GS and a GE , but ist is so down the line on proferences that I won't even try ... in spite of the GE line could fit well in the Eng/Guilds bulbing described here: just don't forget to have AH and bulb the GE after Guilds ).... I would strongly recommend going the Edu bulb line and self tech gunpowder

Gunpowder is a bad animal to bulb by it self ( you can bulb it both with a GS and a GE , but ist is so down the line on proferences that I won't even try ... in spite of the GE line could fit well in the Eng/Guilds bulbing described here: just don't forget to have AH and bulb the GE after Guilds ).... I would strongly recommend going the Edu bulb line and self tech gunpowder

If you do that and can trade for philosophy though can you'd almost be better off just taking it with liberalism.

True.... But Kesshi asked for Gunpowder, not Lib ;) .

In fact I like the idea of bulbing Gunpowder via Guilds if you got Guilds and Engineering via the already discussed Bulbing idea. It could work wonders with Suleiman..... but needs 4 GP, including the rare and elusive GE. With some tuning it may work, though.. and you would get a nice RL like Reanaiscence army : pikes, trebs, muskets, X-bows and knights....

... in spite of the GE line could fit well in the Eng/Guilds bulbing described here: just don't forget to have AH and bulb the GE after Guilds )....

Or you can avoid monarchy, which will block off the feud/guilds line. ;)

In the GS engineering bulb strat that I discussed above, a GS will bulb gunpowder after you have mach/eng.

^^
Or you can avoid monarchy, which will block off the feud/guilds line.
Explain to me exactly how do you get Gunpowder without Guilds and Education ;)

But good spot on the GS line ( missed it completely ). Far easier.... especially if you derail a little to Lit and get the TGL ( you need aestetics anyway.... ). 3 GS + 1 GM is perfectly doable.

If you do that and can trade for philosophy though can you'd almost be better off just taking it with liberalism.

True.... But Kesshi asked for Gunpowder, not Lib ;) .

r_rolo1,

Liberalism -> Gunpowder would work for me. I'm just not sure how I'm supposed to be progressing to bulb things, as I don't think I've ever bulbed anything other than Theology with my free Great Artist from Music.

Being a heavy SE player, I tend to settle everything, and never learned the art of careful bulbing. Everytime I get to Education and Gunpowder, my Great Scientists want to bulb other things. And then I find that it would actually be quicker to just straight research Education + Gunpowder (usually 150+ turns on Marathon at this point) than it would be to backfill all the other techs that my Great Scientists want to bulb.

To put it bluntly, I don't get how bulbing works. Just like how I've relied so heavily on the Pyramids to run a Rep SE so I never learned how to manage a CE...In this case, I relied so heavily on settling my Great Persons, that I never learned how bulbing works.

Bulbing is easy.....

The game "has" ( not exactly but is almost like it had ) a list of prefered techs per type of GP ( they are posted in one of Dave's threads with more than a word :lol: called Great People Tech Prefences (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=140952) ( BtS list is in a attachement called "Research Preferences" in page 3 ). When you have a GP the game checks that GP list and chooses the first avaliable tech of it....

Bulbing is exactly the oposite: we choose a tech and we try to force the game to give us it, by manipulating which tech we have or not... but with a example is easier.

Let's pick one of the discussed examples in here: bulbing Engineering.

First of all we check the lists and see that Eng is on the GS and GE lists. As GS are far more easy to get than GE, we choose to try the GS list:

Writing
Mathematics
Scientific Method
Physics
Education
Printing Press
Fiber Optics
Computers
Laser
The Wheel
Alphabet
Philosophy
Chemistry
Fission
Fusion
Optics
Paper
Astronomy
Biology
Electricity
Flight
Genetics
Compass
Satellites
Aesthetics
Sailing
Calendar
Medicine
Ecology
Advanced Flight
Iron Working
Metal Casting
Engineering
Steam Power
Liberalism
Agriculture
Masonry
Bronze Working
Machinery
Gunpowder
Refrigeration
Superconductor
Rocketry
Fishing
Combustion
Plastics
Composites
Stealth
Mining
Military Science
Radio
Meditation
Drama
Theology
Music
Civil Service
Democracy
Corporation
Communism
Economics
Hunting
Archery
Animal Husbandry
Construction
Robotics
Monotheism
Mass Media
Horseback Riding
Replaceable Parts
Rifling
Artillery
Future Tech

We need to assure that the GS will not bulb any of the techs that is above it in the list..... First step is to recognize the prereqs that Engineering has. it needs Construction and Machinery. as those techs ( and the prereqs of the prereqs ( in here Maths and MC ) and the prereqs of the prereqs of the prereqs.... ) are needed for us to even think on bulbing, we can eliminate them from the list ( wroten in red ):

Writing
Mathematics
Scientific Method
Physics
Education
Printing Press
Fiber Optics
Computers
Laser
The Wheel
Alphabet
Philosophy
Chemistry
Fission
Fusion
Optics
Paper
Astronomy
Biology
Electricity
Flight
Genetics
Compass
Satellites
Aesthetics
Sailing
Calendar
Medicine
Ecology
Advanced Flight
Iron Working
Metal Casting
Engineering
Then starts the hard work.....

There are two big methods to avoid bulbing a tech:
-you already have it ( duh )
- you don't have the prereqs for it

and those are the basis of bulb paths... by carefully researching or avoiding certain techs we force the game to give us the desired tech. Themore useful method is to see if you can avoid a prereq of the tech and if not, simply research it before the bulb... In here ( with notes in green ) :

Writing
Mathematics
Scientific Method Block Astro
Physics can't ... no sci met
Education Block Paper
Printing Press can't ... no Edu
Fiber Optics :lol:
Computers :lol:
Laser :lol:
The Wheel can't avoid ( bottom tech ) ... must have
Alphabet Can't Block ( we need writing )... must have
Philosophy Must Block... either no CoL or no Meditation
Chemistry We are bulbing Engineering... :p
Fission :lol:
Fusion :lol:
Optics Must Block... No compass
Paper Must Block ... no CS and no Theo
Astronomy We blocked Optics before this....
Biology No Optics-> No astro-> No Scimet->No Bio
Electricity ...->No Scimet-> No physics->no Electricity
Flight :lol:
Genetics :lol:
Compass Must block ... no IW or no Sailing
Satellites :lol:
Aesthetics Can't avoid ( we have writing ) ... must research
Sailing Must avoid ... no fishing (!)
Calendar No Sailing->No Calendar
Medicine :lol:
Ecology :lol:
Advanced Flight :lol:
Iron Working Can't avoid ( we need BW )... must have
Metal Casting
Engineering
Joining all we need:
Writing, Maths, wheel, Alphabet, Aesthetics, IW and MC ( besides construction and all the other needed techs before this OFC )
And we need to avoid:
Meditation or CoL ( one of this 2 is enough... I sugest Meditation ), Theo , CS and Fishing ( ! )

If we meet all this conditions, a GS will bulb Engineering.

Of course than after this we may want to make bulbing paths with various GP to get a far fetched objective ( most common is Lib ).... it is just a matter of making this with various techs.....

^^

Explain to me exactly how do you get Gunpowder without Guilds and Education ;)

:lol: Sometimes I get so involved in the bulbing preferences chart that I forget to look at the tech path pre-reqs.

:lol: Sometimes I get so involved in the bulbing preferences chart that I forget to look at the tech path pre-reqs.
;) Been there, done that..... That is I adviced this in that mile long post :
We need to assure that the GS will not bulb any of the techs that is above it in the list..... First step is to recognize the prereqs that Engineering has.
:p

... Which is Machinery + Construction, not? :rolleyes:

... So, in order to open Engi for bulb, what techs must be out of the picture?

... Which is Machinery + Construction, not? :rolleyes:

... So, in order to open Engi for bulb, what techs must be out of the picture?
Shortest version of tech list for possible Bulb with GS ( With GE is far diferent ):

Agriculture
Wheel
Pottery
Writing
Maths
Alphabet
Aesthetics
Mining
Masonry
BW
IW
Metal Casting
Machinery
Construction

Must not have:

Meditation or CoL ( one of this 2 is enough... I sugest Meditation )
Theo
CS
Fishing ( ! )

Gah, blocking fishing is a big problem unless your are ALL INLAND, and on top of that playing a civ that doesn't start with it...

I've experimented and found no true way to bulb this while still growing in warmonger fashion. Getting trebs super early isn't very helpful when you can't get enough units out to make a difference. Xbow will be axemen, but not 10 axemen with 2 xbows. The AI kept getting nonsense like elephants (:() and horse archers in my test games too. Medieval stuff is too hammer-intensive to handle with classical-age cities IMO. It's not just the techs needed, it's the infrastructure.

Generally speaking; if you find that you need a tech (in this case fishing) you'll just have to look for the next blocking opportunity. There's usually more than one way.

Fishing in the GS promo line opens a bulb line that only stops in Electricity ;) No way you can round that up if you want Engineering..... unless you want to use a GE ( much easier to do, but much more harder to get the GP )

Gah, blocking fishing is a big problem unless your are ALL INLAND, and on top of that playing a civ that doesn't start with it...

I've experimented and found no true way to bulb this while still growing in warmonger fashion.

TheMeInTeam,

I just played a game where I was going for bulbing Engineering and I think it has just the start you need. It has:

1) Lots of forests around your capital for quick chopping of workers, settlers, and wonders.
2) A few decent city spots not too far away.
3) Marble in the BFC, and Stone not too far away.
4) Rival Civs are far enough away that you could easily expand peacefully for a long time.
5) You start on a Plains Hill for a 2 hammer capital.


I haven't played far enough to know if there is Iron, but I'll tell you Copper is close enough, and near one of the decent city spots.

Game settings are:
Prince
Pangaea
Huge
Temperate Climate
Medium Sea Level
Marathon

The downside to this start:

1) The really nice coastal city spots you miss out on.
2) The really really nice initial settler 1W city spot.
3) Lack of early luxury resources. (There is Ivory, but close to the coast and with way too much Jungle.)
4) Related to 3, no early commerce tiles other than rivers.

The problem I'm having with this is that since I'm not a CE player, I tend to rely on Coastal tiles and luxury resources for bonus commerce. In the first game I tried I built the Pyramids with my 2nd city. Boy was that a waste. I think, instead, I'll need to build my 2nd city, then the Pyramids with my Capital and chop the heck out of it, while expanding to the two food heavy cities nearby. I think eventually I'll want to run 2 Scientists and possibly 1 Engineer in each of them while I try to Oracle my way to Metal Casting.

Anyways, I've inculded the save if you want to give it a shot with an Industrial leader.

Huge/marathon, huh :(. I'll switch it to emperor/epic when I'm done with work/school. I might not play the whole game but I'll at least try to bulb out engineering and see how viable that makes early war, then probably run a test game 2nd with a more traditional start. I have my doubts on bulbing out hammer heavy medieval stuff early now but I'll give it a look, I might be surprised.

Huge/marathon, huh :(. I'll switch it to emperor/epic when I'm done with work/school.

TheMeInTeam,

Yeah, I really like Huge maps. A lot. Probably because distance maintiance is lower for "far" cities, and a shrine is a lot more useful.

Anyways I converted it for you, but this is my first time doing it so I may have made a mistake. Sorry if you open it up and find out I did. I did load just fine for me, but in the Victory Condition - Settings screen it shows the filename. I'm not sure if that's right or not.

Regardless, it did load. Oh yeah, is Epic 900 turns?

When I switch these typically I just set game speed and # of turns to 0, so that when you pick it in a scenario it just works correctly. I also learned to clean fog of war/units recently but I won't typically bother in games for myself!

Don't worry, I can swap it easily and it takes me about 30 seconds ;). If you want to learn how to do it for yourself for future reference, rolo posted some good information on that already. In my APG II thread he even told me how to clear fog of war and starting units/gave a link to a thread that says how to do everything. If you're interested check there. If not, forget it :). Either way, thanks for the map! Too bad I won't even get home today until like 9:15. I probably won't be able to play this until tomorrow or wednesday but i'll get to it because I want some bulbing practice.

Shortest version of tech list for possible Bulb with GS ( With GE is far diferent ):

Agriculture
Wheel
Pottery
Writing
Maths
Alphabet
Aesthetics
Mining
Masonry
BW
IW
Metal Casting
Machinery
Construction

Must not have:

Meditation or CoL ( one of this 2 is enough... I sugest Meditation )
Theo
CS
Fishing ( ! )

@Diamondeye - Also note that you can bulb machinery with a GS using the same list of pre-reqs posted by rolo. That is, once you've gotten everything on the list thru MC, a GS will bulb machinery. Research construction, and the next GS will bulb eng. Take MC with oracle, and this doesn't seem too far-fetched. Just don't play as americans, english, protuguese, etc (civs that start w/fishing). :(

Sounds like a great strategy for HRE, seeing as the landsnekt is a maceman and a pikeman rolled into one.