What I love about FfH is that nobody gets off as being too "good." But this changed with the Empyrean, and since then it bothered me... the Empyrean get off light. They're too idealized for an otherwise dark world. Tolerance, understanding, wisdom... how boring.
The Order is basically the Inquisition (except they're usually right), the followers of the Runes will watch you starve while accusing you of being too lazy, the Fellowship will slit your throat for chopping down the wrong tree, the followers of Esus will stab you in the back for a few coins... and where do I start with the Overlords or Ashen Veil? So, what's the Empyrean's dirty little secret? Or is it planned that we'll find that out later?

I don't think they really have a dirty little secret. There main downside is pretty well known: They are extremely slow to act. They may spend years deciding on the best course of action instead of just taking an adequate one, by which time it is likely a moot point. Their mercy would, according to the order, only lead to further injustice. (This is one reason why I changes their temples to give a -20% military production rate, but to boost GPP. Being identical to Temples of the Order never made sense to me.)

I'm not so sure the Runes would watch you starve and call you lazy either. They'd never give you a handout, but they might give you a job. They wouldn't pay much until you've proved yourself, but if you clean their kitchen, cook their dinner, and clean up afterwards they would probably share the meal. If you can't earn your living when it was offered, well, then you must really be lazy.

I don't think they really have a dirty little secret. There main downside is pretty well known: They are extremely slow to act. They may spend years deciding on the best course of action instead of just taking an adequate one, by which time it is likely a moot point. Their mercy would, according to the order, only lead to further injustice. (This is one reason why I changes their temples to give a -20% military production rate, but to boost GPP. Being identical to Temples of the Order never made sense to me.)
"We'd love to help you out with that demon problem. So, you say Cahir Abbey is under attack? Well, we'd like to minimize the possible casualties... so we'll flank them from the south... then again, maybe it would be better to just fortify the city... or perhaps we should just hire the Hippus... hold on, did the Sheaim already pay the Hippus, or are the free for hire? Have the sub-comittee on Hippus Hiring Practices look into that..."
I'm not so sure the Runes would watch you starve and call you lazy either. They'd never give you a handout, but they might give you a job. They wouldn't pay much until you've proved yourself, but if you clean their kitchen, cook their dinner, and clean up afterwards they would probably share the meal. If you can't earn your living when it was offered, well, then you must really be lazy.
I'm sure it would really depend on the individual's interpretation of the Runes. For all the religions I listed, I chose the worst possible aspect; there are doubtless many followers of the Runes who would act as you say, and there are others who would, possibly quoting the same verse of the Tablets, be far less kind. That said, I'd sooner ask a Stonewarden for help if I was poor than a Cultist. The latter would definetly offer me a job... whether or not I wanted it.

EDIT: All that said, bureaucratic incompetence is slightly dull compared to an interesting dark interpretation. I still find the Empyrean, lore-wise, to be rather boring...

"The Empyrean wouldn't even lift a finger to save their own grandmothers from the Avatar of Wrath without orders signed in triplicate, sent in, sent back, queried, lost, found, subjected to public enquiry, lost again, and finally buried in soft peat for three months and recycled as firelighters."

I thought this myself when I was reading Cassiel's Civilopedia entry, where Elizabeth talks with all the ghosts of the people who were killed or left to die by the other religions. From how the Empyrean are described it seems that they're reasonable and merciful folk, quite unlikely to execute anyone who repented of their crimes.

"The Empyrean wouldn't even lift a finger to save their own grandmothers from the Avatar of Wrath without orders signed in triplicate, sent in, sent back, queried, lost, found, subjected to public enquiry, lost again, and finally buried in soft peat for three months and recycled as firelighters."

:lol:
And Erebus is getting demolished to make room for an expressway back to Heaven.

You have to remember that the Empyrean are rather closely related to the Overcouncil, and as such are very... Bullying. Once the majority have agreed on something, you fall in, or you're not their friend anymore. Kind of like a Valley Girl clique. Only with magic and more nasty ways of sniping at you.

Besides that, I have to admit that there are few things I find as cold, abusive and inhuman as a superdeveloped bureaucracy. As an organism, a byzantine bureaucracy commits several deadly sins on a daily basis.

Also, the potential to abuse and twist a bureaucracy into something evil is even greater than that of a theocracy.

Well, once you get to the top of the Empyrean, you pretty much control it, and can turn it to your personal tool. Provideed you can stay on top.

"We'd love to help you out with that demon problem. So, you say Cahir Abbey is under attack? Well, we'd like to minimize the possible casualties... so we'll flank them from the south... then again, maybe it would be better to just fortify the city... or perhaps we should just hire the Hippus... hold on, did the Sheaim already pay the Hippus, or are the free for hire? Have the sub-comittee on Hippus Hiring Practices look into that..."
Nah, more likely it would be "Let's send a few Radiant Guards to keep anyone from doing anything (Blinding Light) while we discuss the situation. Oh, and let's make everyone adopt Liberty too." :lol:

@ Wilbowman: Add to that, Neutral Civs with a more evil leaning Religion (like CoE and Overlords!) can join the Overcouncil and indeed lead it.

Before someone calls that unthematic think again about a CoE Civ subverting the overcouncil from within and you have a very literal explanation as to what Wilbowman only descriebed vaguely. (Have done CoE Overcouncil quite a few times and nothing beats that in light of worldwide adamant Relations to everyone. Friendly to anyone and you can cheat and subvert the world. At will. Oh and take many cities lightining fast in "knife in back" style + afterwards imposing forced peace if you lead the council (or even have the leader do it for you if you don't.). And your Relations whouldn't even suffer that bad from it. -3 from +15 or more still means warm fuzzy friendlyness. Oh sure Chalid and / or Teutorix can woe the council the other way and ruin your day. But a knife in their backs surely fixes that "problem". And fast :p.
Also you could slowly subvert everyone in the council with at least some non-state-religious cities and without an extreme leaning to a certain Religion to Esus in no Time. Further! boosting Relations to levels where even after multiple backstabs they still smile at you from ear to ear because you are still "soo good buddies". Now you call that one gluttons for being backstabbed.)

Empyrean whould not only accept but even encourage! that (Hey who minds if you backstab everyone at will and by guidance of Esus? You are part and leader of our council and as thus you lead the way according to the divine ways of Lugus. (Thats where the Empyrean and the Overcouncil mix. Yes Empyrean whould likely think that is the way forward in hopes they might one day repent their ways!)). There you have your dirty little secret. As long as they are part / leader of the concensus and abide to the rules of the council everything they do is ok (unless it is truly directly aimed at the destruction of Erebus. Read: Evil on the FFH2 alignment-axis.). And no matter how good you are if you try to mess with them and prevent that (read: help you to prevent that peril from within) we will come for you. In force.


PS: Forcing someone to adopt "Liberty" by any means for "their own good" against their will and with no mind about the consequences whatsoever :mischief:. What does that one reminds us of...? :D :p Sounds not very cuddly to me.

"Oh, that does it, we're gonna liberate the &*(% out of you!" :lol:

The focus on redemption could also go out of hand. Imagine unrepentant criminals being released onto the streets by well-meaning individuals who mistakenly believe they have learned their lessons.

So basically.... the Empyrean are a modern wishy-washy liberal democracy, but surrounded by assorted tree-hugging, diamond-loving, Cthulu-inspired, religious-fascist, green-skinned, pointy-eared, demon-worshipping, fireball-slinging violent maniacs?

How do they ever find the time for paperwork?

The Empyrean preach redemption to the wicked. This is a good thing. However, some unenlightened chaps might not appreciate this when the wicked are burning down their homes.

So basically.... the Empyrean are a modern wishy-washy liberal democracy, but surrounded by assorted tree-hugging, diamond-loving, Cthulu-inspired, religious-fascist, green-skinned, pointy-eared, demon-worshipping, fireball-slinging violent maniacs?

How do they ever find the time for paperwork?

Because they're a modern wishy-washy liberal democracy that can strike entire armies blind?

"Whoa... whoa... Just blind them there for a second, I haven't quite finished filling out the Chalid Astrakhein requisition forms in triplicate."

"Hang on, pillar of fire? you need an SRA 358B, not a 358A.... and we're not due another shipment of form B for a week yet.... Can you blind them again, this might take a while."

I am personaly incapable of thinking about the Empyren/Overcouncil without think ing of Vogons.

But with the ingrained petty evil replaced by red tape stifled niceness? A shame, I quite liked the Empyrean as the only 'human' religion in FfH that didn't involve:

(a) feeding people to things in exchange for power man was not meant to wield.

(b) setting other people on fire

(c) both of the above

A good match for the high principles of the Malakim and Kuriotates, in other words.

But with the ingrained petty evil replaced by red tape stifled niceness?
Yep.:)
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You can imagine it however you want until Kael comes in and says you've got the wrong idea, which he hasn't. This whole topic is basically "what do I think the Empyrean would be coolest as", not... really a reflection on what it actually is, since that's kind of vague right now.

Yeah, we know that it preaches wisdom and enlightnenment and redemtion, but also has seems to have comitee and concenius issues, but beside that, theirs not much offical (Kael telling us) information.
Edit: Now that I think anout it, you're right, Magister.

I don't Bureaucratic is the right way to describe it. I don't think they are obsessed over paperwork, and following specific procedures is really a Law/Order thing. The Empyrean isn't about bureaucracy, but discussion. They aren't likely to act until discussing the matter with their peers and experts, and they would continue to seek a consensus instead of allowing their actions to proceed when a simple majority is reached. In general, the followers of the Empyrean tend not to be particularly decisive, and when they do make up their minds they are quite willing to change them when new information is uncovered.

Yeah, I suppose you're right. It's like a Polish parliament (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_parliament) rather than a bureaucratic hell.

I quite liked the Empyrean as the only 'human' religion in FfH that didn't involve:

(b) setting other people on fire



When one of their spells is Pillar of Fire? ;)

Only Chalid can use Pillar of Fire.(Like he really needed it)

I still don't think that Pillar of Fire fits them thematically. It should really be an Order spell, since lorewise it was the Order priests who used this (unsuccessfully) against the Luonnatar. Ring of Fire should also be an Order spell, like in Amelanchier's entry.

Pillar of Fire would also make a lot more sense for Seraphim than their current spells (cure disease, heal, fireball, summon fire elemental)

That's the hazard of writing stories based on shifting game mechanics. The order no longer is burny.