I just started a new game on prince level (standard, normal speed, medium sized map, hemispheres) and have what looks to be a really pretty starting position. The founding city isn't that great, but cities two and three have left me in a really nice position, I think. No copper, and I have the choice of 3 (THREE!) pretty nice spots for a fourth city to claim iron. Horses will not be a problem, because I'm set (assuming I get a city at the 4-1 or 4-2 position) to fence off the southest peninsula which has several horses.

With this almost obscenely nice start, my question is where to put city four:

4-1 on the dotmap would aggressively claim horses, which Kublai Kahn, who is in the SE corner, undoubtedly needs, and cuts him off from my SW peninsula.

4-2: Gets me gold and iron, plus cuts off Kublai from the penninsula, but doesn't deprive him of horses.

4-3: Keeps Justinian, who is just NW, from getting gold and horses, plus gets iron.

4-4: Safest claiming of iron, plus gets me elephants.

4-2, Coastal Rice/Iron/Gold is awesome early game. I wouldn't worry about horses too much since you will have metal. Additionally if the 4-1 horses are the only ones denial wouldn't be that difficult. Next you can focus on settling north. Then, decide if you or Kublai is going to be responsible for clearing out that jungle. Given Sparta you'll want IW prioritized. With Gems and Gold commerce should be sufficient that you could beeline Feudalism. If you block the north with 3-4 cities that will buy you time to work the SE jungle areas and setup cottages to help you catch up in tech (in addition to trades). My current game has a similar jungle setup to this and the above approach worked quite well (albeit, my neighbors were all very friendly)

I hate you.

My current game I'm on a rock with almost no resources of any kind. I'm very tempted to start over, but this was meant to be my last game on Prince and I don't want to cop out.

Stil...

I hate you.

My current game I'm on a rock with almost no resources of any kind. I'm very tempted to start over, but this was meant to be my last game on Prince and I don't want to cop out.

Stil...

He..he..he. But if I lose it, you can gloat! It is my 4th game on prince (2 wins 1 loss), and if I lose from such a nice starting position, i probably deserve it!

He..he..he. But if I lose it, you can gloat! It is my 4th game on prince (2 wins 1 loss), and if I lose from such a nice starting position, i probably deserve it!

Once I started picking up momentum with Prince wins, it became nearly dndistinguishable from Noble. I believe in you!

Seriously, I'm so close to just starting again. It's a shame, since I had an awesome BC Holkan rush to wipe out Darius and I've been handling the whip and microing my cities better than usual, but being on a rock is so disheartening.

Once I started picking up momentum with Prince wins, it became nearly dndistinguishable from Noble. I believe in you!

Seriously, I'm so close to just starting again. It's a shame, since I had an awesome BC Holkan rush to wipe out Darius and I've been handling the whip and microing my cities better than usual, but being on a rock is so disheartening.

Well, wiping out Darius is nothing to be sneezed at--he's one of the all-round most versatile guys out there. My very first prince game (which I diligently posted here for feedback) involved an isolated situation in which I was on a pretty bleak peninsula, with moutains cutting me off from the rest of a pangea , where everyone else was getting cozy together. With sage advice from the forum, I had some substantial military victories then settled into a comfortable space race while fending off a bunch of spies.

So don't despair--mobilize!

Hmmm, well, it seems rather easy for me. But Im definately no expert. 4-2 and 4-3, while having gold and iron, have absolutely NO food to work those tiles. If you put a gold mine in a city, you want to work it, my friend. That means you need corn, rice, or atleast wheat in the cities BFC. At 4-3 you would need to farm pretty much every green tile, and that would be an extremely limited science city. 4-2 is the same way. You are just missing that Rice tile which would help tremendously. Personally, 4-4 is a no-brainer; you've got +7 food from the city/wheat/crabs with a lighthouse which grants you iron AND elephants (holy snikes, war anybody?). This city would be a decent production city: I believe 4 hammers from the iron, 3 from elephants, 7 from mines (if Im reading the screenshot right), and the excess food goes to workshops. Pump swordsmen, elephants, catapults and tackle the neartest enemy.

Correction: Justinian is to the immediate NE of the gold, not NW. And I'm going to wait until tomorrow until I decide where city 4 goes, so this is everyone's chance to chime in!

Hmmm, well, it seems rather easy for me. But Im definately no expert. 4-2 and 4-3, while having gold and iron, have absolutely NO food to work those tiles. If you put a gold mine in a city, you want to work it, my friend. That means you need corn, rice, or atleast wheat in the cities BFC. At 4-3 you would need to farm pretty much every green tile, and that would be an extremely limited science city. 4-2 is the same way. You are just missing that Rice tile which would help tremendously. Personally, 4-4 is a no-brainer; you've got +7 food from the city/wheat/crabs with a lighthouse which grants you iron AND elephants (holy snikes, war anybody?). This city would be a decent production city: I believe 4 hammers from the iron, 3 from elephants, 7 from mines (if Im reading the screenshot right), and the excess food goes to workshops. Pump swordsmen, elephants, catapults and tackle the neartest enemy.

Resource-wise, yeah, 4-4 is the best. Is it strategically the best NEXT though? I'm not jut thinking about gaining the most resource ASAP, but what cuts off Kublai and Justinian from advancement. How should I weigh that against the undoubted advantage of the iron and elephants? How to weigh the advantage of cities 1 or 2, which will keep Kublai from creeping into that nice peninsula to the SW?

4-2, Coastal Rice/Iron/Gold is awesome early game.

The problem is that the city at 4-2 can't get the rice if it goes for the iron and gold--as a poster above noted, it has serious food problems (at least until I can chain irrigate). I'm thinking that its real value--other than eventually delivering on the gold, is strategic. 4-1 still seems better to me, if I can nab it before Kublai does...

Coastal Rice/Iron/Gold is awesome early game.
Not seeing any placement that picks up all three of those.

I wouldn't be depressed about a position like this but I don't think its spectacular. Lots of jungle, not much food.

My thoughts:

4-4 is a decent early production city. For an early war, that would be my choice. It also incurs the least maintenance costs of any of the possible sites.

4-1 is nasty. Plains (one with horse), desert, coast and a single unirrigated rice. I would never settle that city as an early option.

4-2 has no food. So working the gold and iron will be stagnating you until Civil Service. Not a big fan.

4-3 at least can build enough farms to work its gold and irons at population 7. Or even better can work both of its golds at population 4. Not the worst city location in the world and might be the best choice for a peaceful REX.

Does that southwest peninsula have no fresh water that is hidden off the edge of the map? There at least is some food down there.

Given the current situation, I would place city #4 one tile South of 4-3. It's entire early game purpose is to get to size 4 and work 2 farms and 2 gold mines -- the fact it nabs iron is just an extra bonus. And if you place it one tile South of 4-3, it can borrow the cow to grow quickly to full size.


By the way, I think Sparta really should have gone one tile south of where it currently is. There, it would gets a big boost in growth (the banana makes the city 3:food: instead of 2:food:), nabs the all-important gold tile (gold is incredibly strong early!), will be a very strong early game production city.... and it doesn't require centuries of clearing jungle to become useful!

This placement also meshes well with moving Corinth one tile South and then your next city where I suggested. (I think I would have built Corinth fourth or fifth, rather than third)


Also, you might seriously consider planting a city one tile South of the gems when you have the production to spare. The commerce will be extremely useful, and when it gets to size 2 and works the horses, it will serve as an auxiliary source of early military units. (And will eventually turn into a cottage city / fishing village)

I'd take 4-4 first. nets you two strategical resources that could be very useful if/when the Khan releases his Keshiks. In fact I would've settled that one before Sparta.

Being creative, I'd try to get the better spots in the jungle before the Mongol. That would imply IW early.

--Humble thoughts of a fellow prince player.

Grmblll, what a start. There is definitely an abundance of resources. Incredible. 4-4 seems the nobrainer, especially because it has two strategic resources in it, is close to the capital and blocks of your enemy for a bit. I would make this a REX game galore.

Do you have a save from the beginning of the game?

*Looks far too hopeful* :)

4-1: Unless you really need to block off another civ, I wouldn't make this site a priority. Beyond the three resource tiles the terrain is abysmal, and even with those you'll be low on food. I also would never prioritise horses over iron as Greece.

4-2: This site has no high food tiles - you won't be able to work the gold without stagnating the city. Not too keen on this location at any stage. Secures an iron source is abolutely all you can say for it, and you have better alternatives for getting iron.

4-3: Again, no high food tiles, which limits the use of the gold. You could irrigate the grassland, but it'll take quite a while to get the city large enough to use both of them and still grow. Does secure iron and a good later site.

4-4: This is probably my favourite site - two food resources plus iron. Bit too much desert for a good city in the long run, but it'll be a while before that starts to bite.

So overall, 4-2 is horrible, 4-1 isn't much better. 4-3 might be a good site in the long run, but will take a long time to get going. 4-4 is probably best in the short term.

OK, my eyes tricked me on 4-2; no rice so that spot sucks cause you can't work anything.

4-5: 1N of the horses to your capital's south.
5: 1NW of the mountain just went of Cornith.

Focus both of the cities on grassland commerce.

6: Grab Iron (probably the NW one). Otherwise the city won't contribute a lot

The main goal should be to get to the jungle and to plan for war.

Key Techs (not in any particular order, what the AI does will affect that)
Horseback Riding (HA and Elephants)
Feudalism (Longbows, Serfdom & Vassalage); Requires Monarchy
Construction (Catapults)
Calendar (Lots of Resources)

Don't know if you moved your settler before making your capital, but it's funny how much I would have preferred if EVERY city you currently have would be moved one to the south.

Your capital would then have the gems and sugar. Sparta would have gold (though be a bit low on food, granted, but the bananas would help). Corinth would then have rice, and the cows could be used to at least help with an iron/2gold/cows city 2 east of the iron.

I cannot see the full space that would be used for 4-3 (cuts off to the north), but given your current lack of strategic resources I'd definitely go for an iron spot or two. In fact, I'd consider putting 4-3 one spot to the south so it might be able to share the cows with Corinth and farm the city (and Corinth) as much as needed. I'd then head to 4-4 pretty quickly after that - you should be able to REX nicely in this manner.

So much to get, I'd suggest REXing until you bomb your economy in fact. There are lots of good resources and plenty of nice land that screams for a powerful land grab.

I'm surprised you are studying Ag so late (after iron working!). You could use some farms.

MyOtherName: Yeah, I debated putting Sparta one south (or one SW to leave the cows for another city to the west with horses), but I hadn't explored south of the gold yet at that point because my first scout got eaten... It is one of those situations where, in retrospect, a slightly different placement does look better. Even so, Sparta as is will develop into an awesome city.

Kev: No, I didn't move the settler. When I saw all of those empty grasslands and only one resource, I took a gamble, thinking I for sure had horses, copper or iron there. I'm still betting there is aluminum or coal or something...

Churchill's Hat: Unfortunately I don't have a save from 4000 BC, but here is one from 3480.

I've pretty much narrowed it down to 4-1 or 4-4. Although everybody has pointed out that 4-1 has a lot of bad tiles and will certainly grow slowly, I think I failed to make clear what my point was for this city (or maybe it can't really be seen on the screenshot). If I put the city there, I will secure the ONLY horses that Kublai has access to, plus sealing off the territory in which the other two horses are located. (Admittedly, I haven't explored all of the forested tundra to the north, but if there are any horses there, I'm assuming Justinian will get them rather than Kublai.)

So I'm thinking maybe getting two settler out almost simultaneously to get 4-4 (for resources and because I don't want Justinian marching over and nabbing it) and 4-1 for the reasons explained above. It will probably really mess with my economy for a while to support that many cities early, but if I cut back a bit on science (I'll get cheap libraries soon) it should be okay.

4-2, but move it 1E to claim the rice. You lose coastal benefits but you need food or that city is going to be pop3-4 for a long time. Settle 1N of the cows on the penninsula to claim the iron.
One question. Why didn't you settle Athens 1S? Unless you plan to settle 1N of the horses to claim the gems.

I think blocking Kublai from that penninsula and from the iron is key. He is more likely to blow the horn on you. Settle 4-2(over 1E) then shoot for the 4-4 area. 4-3 is a gamble because justinian is imperialistic and can probably beat you there.

I have taken the liberty of making a dot map

1. Blocks the SW penninsula. You can place 4-5 decent cities there.
2. Blocks Justinian from ivory. Unless there is more in the north this could leave you with the only war elephants. This is a good thing. two jumbos and a couple hills. claims the cows and two flood plains for the food to work mines and jumbos.
3. Decent production with the iron and plains hill. Clams and Wheat for food to work a couple plains workshops. 9 ocean tiles. Goos spot for Mocha Statues.
4. Can work the gems to help pay for this rex. Claims the horses. Low food, but can get decent commerce from horses and gems while slowly growing to work cottages until CS.

The rest is the SW penninsula.

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd242/civcorpse/dotp.jpg

I think surrendering the east and NE to kublai and Justinian might be safer. It gives you a smaller border and enables them to touch each other. Maybe they will go to war with each other. If you extend your borders all the way east. You will have TWO long borders. One with each AI. If one DoW and bribes the other. You have a 2 front war with long borders.
There is too much iron in the north to keep Justinian from getting any. But it looks like you can keep iron out of Kublai's hands. No Iron means no swords early. And most importantly...no PIKES. Jumbo's will destroy him. Settling 1-2-3 will give you the blockage to let you develope the SW penninsula. You maye ven beable to drop a city in that little gap between Athens and Corinth. No rush though. It make a nice production city if you pop it 1S of the plains hill on the bend in the river. That might be a good idea depending on what Justinian does.
As for the eastern jungle. Let them have it. It makes you vulnerable. Let them clear out the jungle.

CivC: I thought originally about your recommended location for city 4, to get the gold and rice, but I was so fixated on those horses near Kublai that I way trying to save the rice for a city further south. But I think maybe I should reconsider my horse fixation and instead focus on what you pointed out about what looks like an easy elephant monopoly. The only potential drawback I'm seeing to your recommended cities 4-5-6 is that it delays hooking up the iron until pretty late, which may leave me a little weak in military development.

Note: This is my first greek game--I'm assuming the phalanx is a pretty awesome UU.

CivC: I thought originally about your recommended location for city 4, to get the gold and rice, but I was so fixated on those horses near Kublai that I way trying to save the rice for a city further south. But I think maybe I should reconsider my horse fixation and instead focus on what you pointed out about what looks like an easy elephant monopoly. The only potential drawback I'm seeing to your recommended cities 4-5-6 is that it delays hooking up the iron until pretty late, which may leave me a little weak in military development.

Note: This is my first greek game--I'm assuming the phalanx is a pretty awesome UU.

You can delay my city #2 in favor of city #3 if justinian is far enough away. With the seperation you have from Kublai and Justinian and all the available land, they might rex peacefully first. You can pump out archers fairly quickly to boost your power rating so they don't consider you an easy target. I couldn't open the save because you are running a mod I don't have.

You can delay my city #2 in favor of city #3 if justinian is far enough away. With the seperation you have from Kublai and Justinian and all the available land, they might rex peacefully first. You can pump out archers fairly quickly to boost your power rating so they don't consider you an easy target. I couldn't open the save because you are running a mod I don't have.

If you block Kubla from horses, it has been my experience that he WILL DoW to get them. Also your 4-1 leaves a big gap for him to claim that iron. Justinian will probably settle somewhere around 4-3 first then put another city between there and my blue dot city#2. You can probably get blue dot in place first which will encourage him to settle toward the southern jungle. But I would drop pinkcity3 soon just to be sure. Even if barbs plop a cityt there, you should get the 2nd border pop in the southern city to claim the iron in about 50 turns from the date you build it.

Churchill's Hat: Unfortunately I don't have a save from 4000 BC, but here is one from 3480.

eewallace,

If you haven't started any new games, you still have the 4000 BC save in the autosave directory. It has an odd name, however. Usually called something like INITIAL-4000BC or something like that with a different syntax.

I couldn't open the save because you are running a mod I don't have.

The only thing I'm using is Bhruic's 3.13 patch.

Re: Defense. Yes. A bunch of archers. I need to research that, and pottery, ASAP.

1 tile east of 4-4

1 tile east of 4-4

Yeah, that gets the iron and elephants quickly, for sure. But it loses the clams and the place for a coastal city. I'm sort of leaning toward CivCorpse's suggestion of squishing 2 cities up there--one on the river for the elephants and another 1 W of 4/4 to get the iron and have a coastal city.

1E of 4-4 is a health risk. You add two floodplains and lose the ability to build a harbor.

Once I started picking up momentum with Prince wins, it became nearly dndistinguishable from Noble. I believe in you!

Seriously, I'm so close to just starting again. It's a shame, since I had an awesome BC Holkan rush to wipe out Darius and I've been handling the whip and microing my cities better than usual, but being on a rock is so disheartening.

It sounds like a winnable game to me. Do you have the initial save?

1 tile east of 4-4

However fond of cottaging, I'm not entirely convinced by that location. You're trading the clams, three other coastal tiles and a grassland, for two floodplains and an ivory. You pick up a hammer from the plains/hill, but you drop a food on the remaining plains tile. You're also ending up with a lot of coast with no cities, which I regard as a bit dodgy anyway. Particularly when you allow for trade routes, and that the floodplain and ivory could be used by a neighbouring city (whereas you just waste the clams with 1E) I don't think this is a good trade.

Remember that the two tiles around the coast of your continent are merely a weaker, but still useful, form of land and you're wasting it if you settle everything one or two tiles inland.

I do have the initial save (thanks, Keshi!) and I'll post it this afternoon when I get back to my own computer.

Last night, I put in 3 new cities, in fact, in the 3 locations identified by CivCorpse. There were a few surprises. First, Kublai, the idiiot, ignored the horses and put his second city near the rice. But I put mine between the rice and gold anyway, figuring that I would have no problem out-culturing the guy and pushing back his borders. So, my southern penninsula is safe from the others. (It has developed a barbarian city, but I have a couple of archers down there picking off anyone who emerges.) The 2 cities to the north got off to a great start. Big surprise, though--there was Tokugawa up in the tundra! He has a lousy location, and there are some nice mountains between me and him. He and Justinian seem to be expanding toward one another. That should be fun to watch!

My economy was looking awful and science slipped to 30% before I got 3 libraries in and got my scientists to work. So I slipped behind in tech, but now am set to catch up--working on calendar now, and will get COL and currency for the economic benefits.

So, I've got all of the elephants, and still have the potential to get all of the horses!

Interesting game!

Here's the 4000 BC autosave.

hmmm still won't load. says something about mods and assets