Ive decided to finally try the OCC. I need some advice on the best leader for a OCC in BTS.

IMO the twelve best leaders

Peaceful
1. Gandhi
2. Ramesses
3. Peter (great UB for OCC)
4. Lincoln
5. Bismarck
6. Pericles

Runner ups: Elizabeth, Sitting Bull

War
1. Lincoln
2. Augustus Caesar (the praets help a lot) (great UB)
3. Alexander
4. Suleiman
5. De Gaulle
6. Cyrus

Runner ups: Justinian I, Genghis Khan, Stalin

I reccomend you go for a peaceful win (Space Race).

In which case, try Gandhi, Ramesses or Peter.

Make sure you grab the Pyramids and Representation!

For a more detailed guide. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6818809&postcount=94)

My favorites are Lincoln and Ramesses.

Bismarck and Peter imo

In vanilla and warlords it is peter followed by bismark... In bts they are probably beaten by ghandi and ramsess... Augustus is ok if you are going for conquest though thats only really doable at the lower levels...

@NintendoTogepi there is no way pericles should be that high... Organized is completly useless and something like pacal is strictly better...

Gandhi has the best traits. Spiritual comes in handy if you get attacked so you can whip or draft units fast and it's nice to switch between OR, Theocracy, and Pacifism. Obviously, you're going to want to stay in Representation and Bureaucracy, but those two are the only civics that are really set in stone. It's nice to slave out some buildings and then switch out to avoid revolts. Many of the other leader's UUs require iron, horses, or oil, none of which are guaranteed. If you don't mind the added confusion of unrestricted leaders, Gandhi of Rome is sweet, I forget how long praets are useful, and a philosophical leader with a forum and parthenon is really not very fair. Add food and caste and watch the research skyrocket.

@NT - I find it interesting that the OP asks for the best leader and you go ahead and name 14 :lol:

Philo is incredible with Mids and a couple of other early wonders. The first few GPs come out in no time and really kickstart your production and research. I'd agree with NT's first pick - Gandhi for a peacemonger OCC.

For Vanilla/Warlords - Peter for sure.

OCC = diplomatic/religious victory

so best trait would be spiritual

imo, gandhi is the best
he starts with mysticism

early religion + apostolic palace = win

as well Industrious trait will support building wonders

OCC = diplomatic/religious victory

What about space race ? I'm still struggling to achieve it at emperor, but it should be doable

Gandhi or Lincoln, I'd say.

Ghandi if your going for Diplo, but definitely Peter if you want space race.

Philosophical + Pyramids + Hanging Gardens = Beautiful (Even though I seem to have a lot of trouble getting the Gardens before AI)

@Juju - Yea, I havent been able to do it right on Emperor either. I actually keep getting beat by a cultural victory.

What timeline are you looking at for a spaceship at emperor? I usually aim for 1950, and I don't think I've ever seen an AI get a cultural victory before then. Am I just lucky? (Or maybe better at stirring up conflict?)

I vote for the "better at stirring conflict" ;)

Diplomacy is definitely something I have to work on; I got only one space win at emperor, being lucky with diplo; sensed troubles at the beginning with Shaka, Monty and Gengis around, but in fact I never had an easier emperor OCC ;)

Shaka is my nemesis in OCC, especially when he's my neighbour; he's hard to please, and does not have the religious fanatism of others, so he'll likely pick me as ennemy :\

I also have to learn to trade more in the second part of the game. Beating a cultural can be done by accelerating the tech pace imho.

I vote for the "better at stirring conflict" ;)

Diplomacy is definitely something I have to work on; I got only one space win at emperor, being lucky with diplo; sensed troubles at the beginning with Shaka, Monty and Gengis around, but in fact I never had an easier emperor OCC ;)

Shaka is my nemesis in OCC, especially when he's my neighbour; he's hard to please, and does not have the religious fanatism of others, so he'll likely pick me as ennemy :\

I also have to learn to trade more in the second part of the game. Beating a cultural can be done by accelerating the tech pace imho.

I purposely played a Pangea OCC with Shaka, Monty, Genghis, Tokugawa, Alexander and Ragnar :lol: (I was Augustus Caesar of Rome)

How'd it turn out? Well, Toku's empire was a big ring around mine and he got like four of his cities razed by my culture.

I eventually ended up at war with Alexander (Biggest civ), Ragnar (Second biggest), Toku (Alexander's vassal) and Shaka (Ragnar's vassal).

Since I had GE rushed the Statue of Zeus and got the Great Wall, and was Imperialistic, I just let them keep coming. It was pretty funny. In the last 40 or so turns I was at war with every Civ in the game :D they were all suffering from horrific WW as well.

Fist off I want to thank you guys for all your help. Following your advice I started an OCC as Gandhi of India. For most of the game its been pritty smooth sailing. I was able to build most of the important wonders (Pyramids, the Great Library..) keep a significant tech lead, and keep the bigger civs fighting each other… until now. Augustus, my large and powerful neighbor to the west appears to be gearing up to DoW me. For most of the game he has been way behind in tech, but he has somehow leapfrogged ahead. He upgraded his army from riflemen and geranders to infantry and tanks in a very short period of time. Now he has a SoD sitting on my border and “enough on his hands right now.”

Normally this wouldn’t be so bad, however Charlemagne (the game leader) has just finished the Apollo Program. I can’t keep up in the space race and fight Augustus at the same time.

Here are some screen shots of the situation.

1. The border between me and Augustus

2. Augustus’ SoD

3. My forces

Any advice?

Fist off I want to thank you guys for all your help. Following your advice I started an OCC as Gandhi of India. For most of the game its been pritty smooth sailing. I was able to build most of the important wonders (Pyramids, the Great Library..) keep a significant tech lead, and keep the bigger civs fighting each other… until now. Augustus, my large and powerful neighbor to the west appears to be gearing up to DoW me. For most of the game he has been way behind in tech, but he has somehow leapfrogged ahead. He upgraded his army from riflemen and geranders to infantry and tanks in a very short period of time. Now he has a SoD sitting on my border and “enough on his hands right now.”

Normally this wouldn’t be so bad, however Charlemagne (the game leader) has just finished the Apollo Program. I can’t keep up in the space race and fight Augustus at the same time.

Here are some screen shots of the situation.

1. The border between me and Augustus

2. Augustus’ SoD

3. My forces

Any advice?

Upgrade your units all to tanks! You have more than enough money. Then you should be able to hold off Augustus.

Sometimes AI would build up a huge stack in border cities to prevent it flipping (around 10-20%). Check that.
On the first question, I would try either Peter or Bismark of Rome.

What about space race ? I'm still struggling to achieve it at emperor, but it should be doable

uh i hate space race, especially in OCC
it is so hard to achieve

you will need aluminium, so you have to be very lucky or you will have to use corporation later ( but i hate corporation also)

space race is also pretty much impossible without diplomacy
you will need later to bribe AI to war against each other, so you can delay their SS components (because you have only 1 city to build SS)


i mean, if you need diplomacy anyway, it is pretty much easier to go for UN victory.......

uh i hate space race, especially in OCC
it is so hard to achieve
It seemed rather straightforward to me -- it just shows that people have different comfort zones. :)

you will need aluminium, so you have to be very lucky or you will have to use corporation later ( but i hate corporation also)
Aluminum is nice, but it is far from a requirement; you have a lot of room to adjust the balance between production and research. e.g. you can switch from scientists to engineers... or even rip up your forest preserves to make room for state property/caste system powered workshops.


space race is also pretty much impossible without diplomacy
you will need later to bribe AI to war against each other, so you can delay their SS components (because you have only 1 city to build SS)
I've never had an AI put up a serious fight for the spaceship on monarch or emperor; my OCC style naturally finishes a spaceship around 1950.


i mean, if you need diplomacy anyway, it is pretty much easier to go for UN victory.......
It's very easy to keep on the AI's good side -- all you really need to do is to get your neighbors to like you and avoid being the hated enemy of anyone who can actually get units to your doorstep. It's a much, much harder task (for me, anyways) to arrange to be the absolute best buddy of AI's #2, #3, and #4 so that they can vote you in.

I've never had an AI put up a serious fight for the spaceship on monarch or emperor; my OCC style naturally finishes a spaceship around 1950.

What dates are typical for your timeline? by which I mean, when do your significant milestones come in?

well, i personally hate tech trading with AI
it is extremely annoying later when i have to check for AI tech almost every turn
not to mention, even worse if i had warmongers neighbour, such as monty or alexander
i also hate late game
in late game it's more like a race of hammers and money, leader traits become less meaningfull

that's why i never win space race from prince up
cultural is the most comfortable, because we can lightbulb alot, no need to do aynthing after liberalism (only put culture slider to 100% and wait like 30-40 turns)

with BtS, AP and cultural are definitely the most comfortable and easiest methods to win
priest powered economy with holy shrine, angkor wat and spiral minaret is very powerful
add philosophical leader and pacifism

in OCC for peacemongers, since cultural is out of question, so the logical next method to win is with AP
the whole continent with your state religion is incredible :)

What dates are typical for your timeline? by which I mean, when do your significant milestones come in?

I usually get Liberalism between Turn 210 to Turn 240 on Noble, at Normal Speed :D

I was bored the other day, so I WB-d myself pretty much the best fat cross possible (grassland floodplains with corn, all river tiles etc:mischief:), surrounded it with impassable mountain range, leaving just one-tile gap of forested hill, and started an Always War Marathon Deity game against 7 allied opponents as Suleiman.

The first Wonder I grabbed was Great Wall. Well, by the time I rocketed away from the face of Earth, my city with size 57 (?) had a War Council of 19 GG-s...:crazyeye:
The 20th (or the first) was holding the pass :goodjob: I ran out of useful promos for him :lol:

I just played through another OCC. I regenerated a few times to try to get an 'ordinary' start: I finally settled for a corn, plains cow, 3 hills, and trees. (I later found out I had iron, oil, and coal in by BFC, and also aluminum in the very outer reaches of my eventual cultural borders) but that's irrelevant for most of this)

This particular game, I marked down some interesting dates: (Gandhi, normal speed, standard size, emperor)
1520 BC - Finished pyramids
1080 BC - Finished oracle (for mathematics)
850 BC - Joao got alphabet, which let me trade for a few cheapies
525 BC - Hanging gardens finished
275 BC - Fredrick got alphabet, which I could trade for, and I caught up in tech
25 AD - Great library finished
250 AD - National epic finished
520 AD - Parthenon finished! (This really surprised me; I don't often get it)
980 AD - Pacifism
1050 AD - Liberalism in 1 turn. I switch to my biology beeline
1070 AD - Oxford finished. I'm making 339 beakers / turn
1310 AD - Scientifc method
1320 AD - Liberalsim --> Biology (It's not typical I can pull this off)
1650 AD - Research lab finished
1710 AD - Ironworks finished
1780 AD - Factory finished
1800 AD - I found aluminum!
1812 AD - Apollo program finished (I got rocketry long long ago)

The moment I finished my research labs in 1650, I was producing 1015 :science: 36 :gold: 292 :gp: per turn. That was up to 1200 :science: by the end of the game.


This game, incidentally, was a loss. My neighbors Fredrick and Augustus Ceaser decided to be peaceniks which really messed me up. They had both declared on another of my neighbors Charlemagne, which I had been nervous about (I couldn't tell if I was in danger or not) -- I happily joined in the war since I wanted some diplomacy bonuses with Augstus, and I thought they'd crush Charlemagne thus solving my biggest diplomatic issue. Alas, they (and thus I) sued for peace shortly afterwards, and I could never bribe anyone into war against Charlemagne again, and so I couldn't do anything about it when he decided to stomp on me as I just finished researching composites.

(I suppose I could have churned out a big pile of defensive units, but after industrialism, it looked like I was heading for what looked to be my fastest launch yet, so I was being greedy. :) On the other hand, the AI felt like they were teching slowly, so maybe I was already behind schedule when I had that feeling)

A few questions MyOtherName, since you can definitely solve this puzzle better than me:
- getting a tech by hammers instead of science (oracle) is so obvious I don't know why I didn't think of it before...
- I was thinking some time go that I could perhaps completly forgo the gardens and go straigth for the great lib; some comment on this?
- going straigth for laboratory really is worth it after biology ? Will have to think on that
- Aluminium Inc requires coal, so no national park; didn't you build it?
- How did you manage health/happiness pre-biology: when did you build the globe? Did you chop in the BFC? If yes, how did you manage health?

Thanks in advance for your teachings :)

i think he used representation for +3 happy
cow+corn+HG = +3 health
then granary, aquaduct, i think health should be no problem

the main problem is not about finishing the apollo program, but more finishing the SS components
it always ended AI complete SS components faster than me
i have only 1 city after all

my question is, why did you go for mathematic?
why not CoL>Civil service>bureaucracy?

A few questions MyOtherName, since you can definitely solve this puzzle better than me:
Remember that there are different styles of play! I offer no guarantees that mine is the best. :)

- getting a tech by hammers instead of science (oracle) is so obvious I don't know why I didn't think of it before...
Hehe. :) Keep in mind that you may have other pressing uses for your hammers, and different research priorities! It shouldn't be an automatic choice, but it is something to consider.

- I was thinking some time go that I could perhaps completly forgo the gardens and go straigth for the great lib; some comment on this?
The only reason I build hanging gardens is for the great engineer points, and I expect that the AI will take it if I delay until after great library.

One of the early iterations of my non-industrious OCC strategy emphasized great engineer points, and the only wonders I would build were pyramids/hanging gardens/great library. (And all of the national wonders, of course) The hanging gardens have stuck in there out of habit, but I suspect they're still a good idea.

One of my suspicions (which could be wrong!) about the early game is that there's a sort of window where it doesn't really matter how fast you tech; as long as you eventually get ahead to techs like civil service or paper, you will trade up to the current AI tech level, and continue from there.

- going straigth for laboratory really is worth it after biology ? Will have to think on that
Advantages:
- Accelerates your research
- Gives you a spaceship part to build immediately upon completing apollo
- Get the spaceship boost immediately upon completing apollo
- Caving into demands on this tech line feels less painful
Disadvantages:
- Delays apollo
- Delays military techs
- Delays the reveal of aluminum

If I feel like I don't need an advanced military, then I feel like the early research boost makes it worth going down this tech line sooner rather than later. The spaceship construction boost is nice too.


- Aluminium Inc requires coal, so no national park; didn't you build it?
I essentially always build national park, and I do not feel that aluminum is a requirement.


- How did you manage health/happiness pre-biology: when did you build the globe? Did you chop in the BFC? If yes, how did you manage health?
I managed health/happiness by staying at population 9. :) When I was still in wonder race mode, that let me work:
. Fresh water corn
. plains cows
. Farmed grassland (I suspected a late game resource there)
. 2 grassland hill mines
. 1 plains hill mine
. 1 plains iron
. 2 scientists
And once the races were won, I switched over to
. Fresh water corn
. plains cows
. Farmed grassland (I suspected a late game resource there)
. 4 scientists
I never really had a compelling reason to go beyond size 9: anything else I worked would simply have been a boring grassland forest. I did allow growth from time to time (and maxed out working grassland forests after national park), but it was never a priority.

This had the side benefit that I didn't have to take a diversion to drama. With all of the forest preserves, I might have never needed the globe theatre! (I did wind up building it after trading for drama and encountering some downtime)

This part of my game varies a lot depending on the starting position -- if you give me more food, I will spend more effort on my happiness / healthiness caps to maximize my hammers during the initial wonder/infrastructure race, and to maximize how many specialists I can run. But if I don't have much food, I have no problem running a population 5 city until biology. :)


As for chopping, I only chopped the forests on my hills (which I pillaged after winning the initial races & infrastructure) and outside of my BFC. I do occasionally chop inside my BFC, but I always make sure never to build a road on a tile I want to chop, so as to give it time to grow back. :)

my question is, why did you go for mathematic?
why not CoL>Civil service>bureaucracy?
There's little point in rushing to bureaucracy if you don't have anything worthwhile to build. :) (And don't you need mathematics for civil service anyways?) Also, I'm not sure I want to found confucianism.

The only alternatives I would consider are metal casting and aesthetics. The benefit of mathematics is that it improves my chops and immediately gives me something useful to work on (aquaduct -> hanging gardens). But now that I think about it... I should consider metal casting in those cases where I'm sure I will be able to trade it for alphabet and mathematics.

Remember that there are different styles of play! I offer no guarantees that mine is the best. :)
Sure, but at least it can give some tips :)
Also, I notice we have pretty similar strategies (aka forest + small growth until biology + no globe until lots of time)

The only reason I build hanging gardens is for the great engineer points, and I expect that the AI will take it if I delay until after great library.
Yeah, me too (also, the +1 health is nothing to sneeze at); but I was thinking that perhaps prioritizing the great lib, and so science + tons of GPP, could pay off much more than a few engineer points

One of my suspicions (which could be wrong!) about the early game is that there's a sort of window where it doesn't really matter how fast you tech; as long as you eventually get ahead to techs like civil service or paper, you will trade up to the current AI tech level, and continue from there.
Maths/Aesthetics/Literature also help in this respect

Advantages:
- Accelerates your research
- Gives you a spaceship part to build immediately upon completing apollo
- Get the spaceship boost immediately upon completing apollo
- Caving into demands on this tech line feels less painful
Disadvantages:
- Delays apollo
- Delays military techs
- Delays the reveal of aluminum
I see another disadvantage: delay production boosters (ironworks, levee, factory, hydro plant); I don't know about you, but I usually build science a lot, so these boosters help.
I also see another potential advantage, perhaps something I'm really missing: When going the "industrial line" (steel, corp, steam power, industrialism...), I usually compete on research with the AI. Going down the lab line would give me the possibility to trade for these techs.


I managed health/happiness by staying at population 9. :)
Ok, so this means we have the same strategy here.
But if you can grow to more (because you have more than 9 health and happiness), did you already consider laying some cottages to avoid working "some boring grassland forest" ? With the bureaucracy bonus, these tiles are efficient pretty fast, and in any case are better than building science and working grassland forests. I tried that a little bit but still have to work on my concentration skills to make my tests usefull :rolleyes:

Also, do you usually build the internet ?

But if you can grow to more (because you have more than 9 health and happiness), did you already consider laying some cottages to avoid working "some boring grassland forest" ? With the bureaucracy bonus, these tiles are efficient pretty fast, and in any case are better than building science and working grassland forests.
They are certainly useful in the short term; the two major questions are:
. Does it cost too much national park potential?
. Would it be even better to farm it up to get some extra GPP?

I know I've considered in the abstract the idea of laying cottages at certain points in the occ game... but I haven't really nailed down any concrete point when I think they might gain me an advantage.


Also, do you usually build the internet ?
That's usually the first thing I do after launching my spaceship. :lol: It has been occasionally useful to do it beforehand, but I consider getting to composites quickly to be of the highest priority (so I have time to build all 5 casings), leaving fission, ecology, and genetics the only space race techs that could potentially be researched by two AI's... and they rarely manage that feat before I have to do it myself.

They are certainly useful in the short term; the two major questions are:
. Does it cost too much national park potential?
. Would it be even better to farm it up to get some extra GPP?

Agreed on that.
First question: basically depends on the number of forests you have in your BFC. But I know that very often, I build some farms at the end even when I had a high-forested start, because forest don't grow on every tile. Or you're lucky ;) But for sure, if I cottage a little bit, I'll lay them down considering the forests.
Second question: to get more scientists, you need 2 farms and 1 citizen, so 3 citizens. First thing is that you won't always have that round number. Second thing is the output of both methods:
- 2 farms + 1 scientist: 6 beakers, 3 GPP
- 3 cottages: 4.5 beakers
- 3 hamlets (easy): 9 beakers (loss of cottages in beakers output is gained in 5 turns - very quick)
- 3 villages (doable): 13.5 beakers

Is the science boost worth the loss of the GPP? Intuitively I'd say yes. Ultimately, we should consider the delay in getting the great people and see how it affects raw science output, but I fear that's a little bit complicated :lol:

I'll also try changing my tech path to not include the internet, thanks at least for saying it's doable ;)

There's little point in rushing to bureaucracy if you don't have anything worthwhile to build. :) (And don't you need mathematics for civil service anyways?) Also, I'm not sure I want to found confucianism.

The only alternatives I would consider are metal casting and aesthetics. The benefit of mathematics is that it improves my chops and immediately gives me something useful to work on (aquaduct -> hanging gardens). But now that I think about it... I should consider metal casting in those cases where I'm sure I will be able to trade it for alphabet and mathematics.

hmm yeah i forgot the CS slingshot like in vanilla doesnt work anymore
now it requires mathematic

Did it :D My second Emperor space race OCC !

I just tried again emperor OCC, going straight for the GreatLib and forgoing the gardens. Wasn't as good as you, but for my defense, I did not have a great BFC ;) few food, few forests, only copper/corn interesting in the BFC, no iron, no uranium, no oil, no horses... ah, I got aluminium :rolleyes:; in fact, the start was very good for a non-OCC game because I was alone on a great island, 3 other civ being at galley distance

Let's compare:
1520 BC - Finished pyramids got it in 1420BC
1080 BC - Finished oracle (for mathematics) BIAFAL 1360BC, not a chance to get it:cry:
850 BC - Joao got alphabet, which let me trade for a few cheapies
760 BC - Academy
525 BC - Hanging gardens finished
275 BC - Fredrick got alphabet, which I could trade for, and I caught up in tech
25 AD - Great library finished got it in 1AD
250 AD - National epic finished
440 AD - Bureaucracy
520 AD - Parthenon finished! (This really surprised me; I don't often get it)
980 AD - Pacifism
1050 AD - Liberalism in 1 turn. I switch to my biology beeline
1070 AD - Oxford finished. I'm making 339 beakers / turngot it in 1060 - 316 btp
1310 AD - Scientifc method
1320 AD - Liberalsim --> Biology (It's not typical I can pull this off)got it in 1420 AD
1650 AD - Research lab finished got it in 1715 AD - 854 bpt
1710 AD - Ironworks finished Built mine only for the engineers slots
1740 AD - Levee in (+8? hammers)
1780 AD - Factory finished
1800 AD - I found aluminum!
1812 AD - Apollo program finished (I got rocketry long long ago)got it in 1835 AD
Spaceship launched in 1944, arrived 8 turns after (was busy teching, so I built some extra thrusters :crazyeye:)

Very nice game, but I was lucky to have two great techers as neighbours ;) I traded A LOT, which almost killed me in the end
The only wonders I built were the mids, the GLib and christo redentor (wanted an insurance for diplo/war, the world was starting to get crazy); I got a small refund from the oracle, and was like 5 turns away from the Paya when it was built; but I could have started it much earlier.

-- edit: sorry, forgot to contribute to the main topic ;) Played Gandhi, Philo all the way