It's a tech I usually don't go after early in the game. I've never founded Judaism and usually don't get to run OR early on as the AI is usually pretty reluctant to part with the tech. Since a lot of players here, myself included, typically avoid early religion aside from the founding of Confucianism with CoL from the Oracle, I suppose it makes sense not running OR in the early game. In the past, my early efforts at researching monotheism was merely fuel for bulbing theology to run theocracy passing up Organized Religion altogether. These days I'm now more inclined to settle that early great prophet should I get one.

But organized religion does seem to have its merits and I'm wondering how people put it to good use in the B.C.'s. I'm guessing that the 25% bonus to infrastructure works with slavery. Combined with a MC slingshot and bulding or whipping a forge, the bonus could be as high as 50% in the early game. Is it worth it? With cities being low in population, it seems 50% of not much is worth squat. But again, with slavery, at normal speed you'd be looking at 45:hammers: instead of 30.

The other benefit would be early missionaries without monasteries and the ability to acquire a friend by pushing religion on them. I find it valuable to have someone amenable to my existence whether it is for tech trading. trading for cash, resources, trade routes, a war buddy, whatever.

Anyway, that's all I got. Like the current leveraging vassalage (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=275946) thread, I'm just looking for some alternatives because most of my games find themselves going down familiar avenues to victory. Since most of my games on monarch result in a win, the options are to bump up the difficulty or experiement with some 'sub-par' strategies that will at least provide something different.

Like you said , the 25% bonus of OrgRel applies to :whipped: and chopping ( as well as the forge one ), making it very atractive if you're planning to chunk lots of hammers ( army or wonders ). The missionary feature helps a lot with AP strategies ( allowing you to skip monasteries for a while ) as well...

Agreed, it all depends on what your plan is. I love OR if I am going for AP, definately. And its always nice after a war (when I usually decide to update some infrastructure). But, I usually only consistently use OR when I am going for an early AP win, even though it can be good during any game where you want peace (like you said, spread the religion).

I hate spreading religions that arent mine though, so I tend to avoid it if I fail to found one.

If you happen to have the spiritual trait, OR can be great to consistently switch in and out of. You need missionaries, or buildings, pop in OR. You need troops, GPP, nothing, just quickly give it a switch. When I am spiritual, I tend to switch my religious civics around a lot.

It's very common for me in my "AP" games. Also, I use it VERY often in isolation as the penalty from running a religion there is non-existent until you meet everyone else. It's really strong for getting infrastructure up. Even if you get it late-ish, it's still worth the anarchy unless you have pacifism and want the GPs, or you're going to war (and making units!) therefore favoring theocracy (which is on that tech path).

After the very early game it's a cheap tech.

It's very common for me in my "AP" games. Also, I use it VERY often in isolation as the penalty from running a religion there is non-existent until you meet everyone else. It's really strong for getting infrastructure up. Even if you get it late-ish, it's still worth the anarchy unless you have pacifism and want the GPs, or you're going to war (and making units!) therefore favoring theocracy (which is on that tech path).

After the very early game it's a cheap tech.


You hit on a couple of key points here. As soon as philosophy is researched, I'm almost always in pacifism. And if I research monotheism, it's usually for theocracy (i.e. - quickly get theology). I realize monotheism is not a pre req for philo, but it makes sense you'd probably have monotheism by the time you acquire philosophy. However, I have played games where I bulb philo before researching monotheism.

And in the early game, 179 beakers (normal speed), that's not particularly cheap. 9-12 turns in the early game at normal speed is a big deal. The opportunity cost here is steep.

Otherwise, I realize it can be a situational civic and has its uses. The real question is it worth placing importance over other early techs/plans/etc to gain the bonus hammers from slavery for setting up early infrastructure. For instance, if an aggressive leader gets cheap barracks, there should be a bonus there in whipping under slavery. Does that whipping bonus stack if your running OR and will the +25% hammers make that big of a difference?

My feeling is 'no' which is why I rarely place an emphasis on monotheism. It's only a vehicle for theology.

I also prefer pacificism/theocracy and am guilty of not using OR enough. It really is excellent for whipping infrastructure. My comrades in the MC threads have really shown the value of it. I think spiritual clearly is most beneficial for the religious civics since they are all really valuable at different points of the game.

For aggressive leaders: yes, the OR bonus will be added to the original bonus (maybe not exactly additive, I forget the mechanic, but they both come into play). Is it worth it to set up an early rush? No.

In each of my first two AP Gauntlet games, I bulbed theology early, having access to theology considerably before 1 AD. This meant I had monotheism. That stage of the game you're still expanding/making buildings, and the OR is helpful in this scenario because of its help with whipping/building infrastructure.

I'll note that if you get monotheism/theology relatively early, some AIs won't have mono even on emperor (the AI stays away from religious techs once the religion has been founded for a while), and of course practically none will have theology, which in my case I'll just hang on to to get the AP (but it will retain its trading potential for hundreds of years. I bulbed it in APG II in 345 BC or so and built the AP/traded it around 800 AD!). That example is a bit extreme due to the extremely poor tech pace of my continent (In that same game CR III swords were viable in 1000 AD), but generally theo lasts a while so the techpath isn't as bad as you think as you can trade theology for a LOT potentially.

A final worthy merit to the civic is that it lets you build missionaries without the monastery. What that basically means is that you can build mobile "monuments" in your cities via missionaries, and of course if you want to spread religion OR makes it easier.

It's an interesting tech path, I don't think it's as bad as implied. Monarchy is right there too, and that will help a CE greatly until it picks up currency and CoL, which if one goes theology they'll be very close to anyway (writing + mono pre-req means CoL is available with only priesthood, while you only need math or alphabet for currency).

OR is one of my favorite civics, and I generally trade for Mono very early and go into it right away, especially if I am not Spiritual, I only want 1 turn of Anarchy.

I love it because of the hammers. I am a hammer kind of player, sort of, so I enjoy anything that gives bonuses. I whip/chop out Forges in every single city the instant I get MC. With OR + Forge, every whip and chop is affected (well, on Buildings anyway).

Slavery and OR are the 2 civics I stay in most of the game. I use Golden Ages to get into the "military" techs, like Theo, Nationalism/Vassalage, etc, but I always go right back to OR and Slavery (if I left it) at the end of that Golden Age. Especially if I plan to take a pile of AI cities with that military I have just created in Theo. If they are in my religion, great, I can benefit from OR right away. If they arent, thats ok too, because the nearest city can crank out some missionaries even if I havent built a Monastery there. OR really helps me get those captured AI cities online quickly, workers swarm in and chop out important buildings, or I whip away excess citizens, etc, to get those Theaters/Libraries/Temples/Barracks up ASAP. Works pretty well.

The problem is that Monotheism has three prerequisites, none of which are terribly useful worker or military techs (although Masonry can be handy if you have stone or marble, obviously). It's hard to envision a starting position where you could beeline Monnotheism and not hamstring yourself. I suppose a seafood start could get away with it, if you didn't build workers and just went with workboats, maybe settling another seafood city to buy you time to finish Monotheism and then get the worker techs going.

Isabella is the obvious choice for this (starting with both Mysticism and Fishing), but I can see any civ with either of those starting techs making a go of early Monotheism with a seafood start.

You don't need to beeline it to make monotheism useful however. Even just trading for it as Bleys suggests works fine. The biggest limiting factor for me using it is when the only religions I can run would tend to get me killed by the AI...it's a tough call then because sissyfooting in a sub-optimal civic (paganism/NSR) will weaken me compared to the more diplomatically risky religion.

Well, you can always pick Paya in the way of TGL......

As a marathon player..i LOVE organised religion. Anything which reduces a 40 turn build to 34 odd (or however the weird maths works)..is good in my book. Its a real ache to get anything built playing so slow, so it really is all about getting the maximum production out.
Again, this could be one about playing style. My typical games involve me building production dominated empires which can hold their own against nations which are technologically advanced but lack the crucial hammers.

For me the issue is OR vs. Pac vs. Theo. In my experience heavy OR users tend to make limited use of pac and vice versa. I generally run pac for the early game, theo for the midgame (drafting), and frel (space) or theo (dom) the rest of the time. I am making good use of these civics during that time as well. I would love to fit OR in there as well, but without spiritual it can be very difficult.

For me Pac just doenst do enough. I figure I am going to get about the same amount of Great People no matter what I do, eventually. Getting them earlier is nice, but late-game GPeople generally mean Golden Ages so I dont mind having them come a tad later and slower. Getting those key buildings up though, THATS pretty important to do fast. Not only that, but the benefit from whipping is just too big to pass up. You know me from the Monarchist games, I go right for forges, and love OR, both for the benefit I get from my favorite (and somewhat broken, to be honest) civic, Slavery.

For me Pac just doenst do enough. I figure I am going to get about the same amount of Great People no matter what I do, eventually. Getting them earlier is nice, but late-game GPeople generally mean Golden Ages so I dont mind having them come a tad later and slower. Getting those key buildings up though, THATS pretty important to do fast. Not only that, but the benefit from whipping is just too big to pass up. You know me from the Monarchist games, I go right for forges, and love OR, both for the benefit I get from my favorite (and somewhat broken, to be honest) civic, Slavery.

It comes down to bulbing vs hammers/expansion warfare prep in this case. That is heavily dependent on the map and player.

Well, you can always pick Paya in the way of TGL......

The Shwedagon Paya is one of my favorite wonders, and I usually try to get it (especially if I have a gold resource). I generally favor the "high road" on the tech tree to try and gain a decisive military tech advantage (steel via lib, for example). With the Paya I can not only avoid the religious tech path and still have access to Org Rel and Theo, but I also have early access to "later" civics like pacifism and free religion. Instead of researching these civics with :science: I "research" them with :hammers:. :lol: As long as I'm not in the middle of an early war and have the :hammers: to spend. I generally like to be in Org Rel for most of the game for the :hammers: bonus, but it's nice to be able to jump into theo for warring or pacifism when I need to bulb along the liberalism line, without having to research a tech line that I largely ignore.

OR is a great religion civic to take along with Vassalage, mainly because it's the alternative to Theocracy when your units already begin with 5 XP.

The key thing to remember is to switch to OR only when you need it. In the case of Organized Religion/Vassalage, the first civics change should be Hereditary Rule + Vassalage, which results in 1 turn of anarchy.

The next civics change should occur after you've finished waging your first phase of war. What typically happens here is capturing a source of Marble, if you don't have one yet, and then building the Heroic Epic and National Epic. The other cities catch up on buildings like Markets and Grocers. So this is where OR becomes really useful.

For me Pac just doenst do enough. I figure I am going to get about the same amount of Great People no matter what I do, eventually. Getting them earlier is nice, but late-game GPeople generally mean Golden Ages so I dont mind having them come a tad later and slower. Getting those key buildings up though, THATS pretty important to do fast. Not only that, but the benefit from whipping is just too big to pass up. You know me from the Monarchist games, I go right for forges, and love OR, both for the benefit I get from my favorite (and somewhat broken, to be honest) civic, Slavery.

If you run a SE pacificism is incredible. It DOES give you more gp over the course of the game and getting them earlier can be incredibly powerful.

I seldom use Oranized Religion simply because I avoid having a state religion too early in order to build relationship with rivals with different religion.

I don't use Mono because of its cost, usually. I'm already at 0% with a massive empire, any more costs and I'm dead!

As a marathon player..i LOVE organised religion. Anything which reduces a 40 turn build to 34 odd (or however the weird maths works)..is good in my book. Its a real ache to get anything built playing so slow, so it really is all about getting the maximum production out.
Again, this could be one about playing style. My typical games involve me building production dominated empires which can hold their own against nations which are technologically advanced but lack the crucial hammers
__________________


General: Conan! What is best in CIV?
Conan: To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women..

You have a great sig.

To those who talked about trading for mono early: In my games, it always seems that those who have monotheism tend not to trade it away.

I love me some OR, and sometimes stay in it for the entire game. The 25% bonus means getting all your infrastructure up earlier, which really is pretty huge.

That said, it becomes much weaker once you have Factories and power in your cities. After all, you'll already be getting 100% from Forge/Factory/power, so the extra 25% becomes relatively minor.


Waldo

Something that hasn't come up: swapping back and forth between Theo and OR, especially if you're Spiritual.

Basically, Theo to build an army to wage war, then OR to build infrastructure quickly in your conquered cities. In a medieval or later war, you generally want to bet a Granary/Forge/Courthouse in your conquered cities, and often a Theater too. OR can help you get this stuff up much faster.


Waldo

One other thing: if you're on your way to popping a Great Priest (like, you built Stonehenge or some other GP-producing wonder early), then beeing Monotheism suddenly becomes more attractive.

That's because, while the precursor techs for Mono are not great, a GP after Mono will give you Theology -- which (1) founds a religion, (2) enables a useful civic, and (3) is one of the nicest techs for trading. The AIs *love* Theology, but rarely make it a top priority.

So, if you're popping a Prophet, and have Alphabet, there's a good case to be made for zooming to Mono and then bulbing Theology... you'll probably be able to trade it for one or more decent techs, for a nice net profit.

(For bonus fun, trade it cheap to Montezuma or some other Aggressive civ in return for a DoW against someone. Monty loves Theology, and will cheerfully use it to attack someone else.)


Waldo

I often aim to run OR if I am going to build the Oracle and thus research its prereq's anyway. It is very good for early warmongers who plan on shifting to builders in the classical era before winning a domination victory in the rennaisance. It is my standard approach with Mehmed, for instance. Ramesses also gets a lot of useage out of it.

If you are running a specialist economy or are playing a more pure warmonger though, you are usually better off with either pacifism or theocracy.

I love organised religion when I can afford it. Faster markets, courthouses, grocers helps me get my economy back into shape faster after an initial rush / rex. However, the question is whether I can afford it in the first place. ;)

I like to play with lots of other civilizations, and I play above noble, so if I want to grab an early religion, judaism is the one most likely to be doable, as with many AIs, there's very often someone grabbing buddhism/hinduism with bonus research speed that I can't match. Then of course I'd run organized religion.

Also, it's not like the prereq techs are not needed either, so even though I prioritize worker techs first, I often end up getting it fairly early.

I usually run organized religion until I need to improve AI relations and switch to free religion.