(Preview #1 here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=278304))

Shorter preview this time, only to show you how city names are managed, since you asked.

Obviously, there can't be names assigned to plot coordinates, but still it doesn't mean that we should rely on completely random names.

So, each civ will have 4 city names lists:

1- for non-coastal cities in the continent
2- for coastal cities in the continent
3- for non-coastal cities in another continent
4- for coastal cities in another continent

The capital is always at the top of 1 or 2.
This picture shows cities picked from lists 3 and 4:

http://rhye.civfanatics.net/civ4/RAND/newspain.jpg

Here are the Spanish lists, for example:

Madrid
Sevilla
Toledo
Zaragoza
Santiago
Salamanca
Pamplona
Córdoba
Granada
Badajoz
León
Oviedo
Vitoria
Bilbao
Albacete
Burgos

Barcelona
Valencia
La Coruña
Santander
Malaga
Alicante
Huelva
Almería
Ceuta
Melilla
Tenerife
Ibiza

Guadalajara
La Paz
Medellín
Bogotá
Monterrey
Villa Hermosa
Asunción
Puebla
Chihuahua
Concepción
Santa Fé
San Antonio
Hermosillo
Las Vegas

Santo Domingo
La Habana
Veracruz
Lima
San Juan
Buenos Aires
Campeche
Caracas
Santa Marta
San Salvador
Guatemala
Montevideo
Los Angeles
San Diego
Rosario


Now an announcement:

I'm looking for volunteers to help with these lists.
No programming skills are required, just accuracy (both historical and grammatical).

I've currently compiled only the Spanish and the English lists. If some of you help out with this stuff, I can spend my time on other aspects of RFC RAND and on the new patch of RFC itself.

EDIT: if you want to post lists directly here, you should try to follow these rules:
- 10 cities for each list are enough
- cities must be important, historically and possibly nowadays
- you should sort them considering founding date too. If you notice, I put Buenos Aires lower than Santo Domingo
- you can use random lists and RFC city maps for ispiration
- when a city could belong to more than one civ, we should decide which one should. Possibly the most representative: Marseille is better French than Roman. But there may be different situations.
- accents are important!!! Consider that with just a wrong accent, renaming system won't work. Use the character map for accents you haven't got on your keyboard
- as in RFC, names must be in native name: e.g. Korinthos, not Corinth
- when different romanizations are available, use the one used in RFC: e.g. Beijing, not Peking
- don't worry about leaving some lists empty (like Mayan 3 and 4). In that case, a name from the other lists is picked instead

Can you add Soria to the Spanish list 1? Every single citizen committed suicide to avoid being captured by the Romans! And it's the coldest place in Spain, too!

I'll help with the lists for sure! Can I start with the French ones? If so I'll start right away!:)

I'd galdly done Russia, but the question is, Russia didn't have many offshore settlements, so categories 3 and 4 are problematic. Same with most un-western-european nations like India or China. First 1 and 2 are easy:

1.

Moscow (Moskva)
Novgorod
Rostov
Yaroslavl (Jaroslavl, as per Rhye)
Smolensk
Samara
Tobolsk
Omsk
Volgograd (Carycin, Stalingrad)
Tula
Vladimir
Perm
Pskov
Voronezh
Ekaterinburg
Novosibirsk
Chelyabinsk
Krasnoyarsk
Khabarovsk
Kursk
Irkutsk
Izhevsk

Category 2:

St. Petersburg
Archangelsk
Astrakhan
Sevastopol (now Ukrainian)
Odessa (ditto)
Murmansk
Vladivostok
Petropavlovsk - Kamchatsky
Magadan
Yalta (Ukrainian now)

Or something like that. Easy.

Now for 3 and 4 you are struck with Alaska and maybe Sakhalin. Althrough maybe it is possible to name 16 or so settlements...

Here's France's first 2 categorys, I'll finish the other 2later.

Category One

1.Paris
2.Toulouse
3.Reims
4.Orleans
5.Lyon
6.Dijon
7.Rennes
8.Avignon
9.Metz
10.Poitiers
11.Tours
12.Nantes
13.Grenoble
14.Rouen
15.Amiens
16.Saint-Etienne
17.Lille

Category Two

1.Bordeaux
2.Brest
3.Marseille
4.Le Havre
5.Calais
6.Saint-Nazaire
7.Nice
8.Cannes
9.La Rochelle
10.La Roche-sur-Yon
11.Perpignan
12.Montpellier
13.Caen

(Sorry my computer can't do accents!)

Category Three

1.Montreal
2.Quebec City
3.Baton-Rouge
4.Saint Louis
5.Tadoussac
6.Fort Detroit
7.Saul
8.Sault Ste-Marie
9.Fort Toulouse
10.Fort Niagara
11.Fort St. Jean Baptiste


Category Four

1.Guadeloupe
2.Nouvelle Orleans
3.Cayenne
4.Port Royal
5.Martinique
6.Port-au-Prince
7.Cap-Haitien
8.Biloxi
9.Mobile
10.L'anse aux Meadows
11.Ile de Bourbon
12.Ile de France
13.Senegal
14.Algiers
15.Casablanca
16.Nouvelle Caledonia
17.Fort Caroline

Lima is a coastal city isnt it?

At least it was the last time i was there. :P

Detroit is a tough one. While it may have been settled by France, it is thought of as an American city.

Lima is a coastal city isnt it?

At least it was the last time i was there. :P

I'm sorry I confused it with another city. Picture updated

Rhye, can I also do the American ones?

Can you add Soria to the Spanish list 1? Every single citizen committed suicide to avoid being captured by the Romans! And it's the coldest place in Spain, too!

No, Numantia was a celtiberian city

sure you can, but please follow the rules I added in the 1st post

I need the English lists so I can do the American ones Rhye(eg. are Boston and New York already on the English list).

Now for 3 and 4 you are struck with Alaska and maybe Sakhalin. Althrough maybe it is possible to name 16 or so settlements...

Easy enough for 4 with Russia's Alaskan settlements and arctic possesions, though 3 is very hard if you want important/interesting settlements:

3.
(Inland Antarctic station)
Vostok

(Sakhalin)
Vladimirovka (old name), Yuzhno-Sakhalinsk (post WW2 name), oblast capital.



4.
(Sakhalin)
Korsakov (largest town, coastal)
Alexandrovka (non-minor town)

(Alaska, major settlements)
Kodiak
Unalaska
Mikhailovsk
Old Sitka
New Archangel

(Russian California)
Krepost' Ross

(Coastal Antarctic stations)
Mirnyy
Molodyozhnaya
Novolazarevskaya

1.Montreal
2.Quebec City
Quebec City is just Québec (its official name, and with no province, no differentiation is necessary anyways). I would also flip those around.
It also seems wrong to exclude Trois-Rivières (the third major city on the St Lawrence).

Also, I notice the lists given here use English names, should they not be of the native language (as in RFC).

Also, would names change upon conquest/transfer?

I need the English lists so I can do the American ones Rhye(eg. are Boston and New York already on the English list).

York
Bristol
Nottingham
Ipswich
Norwich
Birmingham
Cambridge
Canterbury
Newcastle
Blackburn
Manchester
Glasgow
Middlesbrough

London
Hastings
Edinburgh
Cardiff
Brighton
Portsmouth
Hull
Blackpool
Aberdeen
Belfast
Plymouth
Liverpool

Philadelphia
Toronto
Ottawa
Edmonton
Regina
Canberra
Winnipeg
Upington
Kimberley
Salisbury
Warwick

Jamestown
Boston
Baltimore
Bridgetown
Kingston
Sydney
Durban
Melbourne
Perth
Vancouver
Adelaide
Wellington
Port Elizabeth
Stanley

Quebec City is just Québec (its official name, and with no province, no differentiation is necessary anyways). I would also flip those around.
It also seems wrong to exclude Trois-Rivières (the third major city on the St Lawrence).

Also, I notice the lists given here use English names, should they not be of the native language (as in RFC).

Also, would names change upon conquest/transfer?

Indeed, to make everything work, names must be in the correct native name and romanization, as in RFC standards

So here are some American ones that I can come up with off the top of my head. I chose them for historical importance, population, and I additionally tried to be geographically diverse.

I am including the earliest date that these areas could be considered a settlement. Many were officially incorporated much later. In the case of indigenous populations, I present the date when the city or area received its first permanent European or American settlement. These dates I obtained from Wikipedia, so if you can back them up with a real source, I have no objections to changing them.

Additionally, some may need to be filtered and claimed by other countries.

*means initially founded by England
**means initially founded by France
***means initially founded by Spain or Mexico
****means initially founded by the Netherlands


1 noncoastal in initial continent:
Detroit ca 1701*
Pittsburgh ca 1758*
Chicago ca 1770*
Cincinnati ca 1788
Buffalo ca 1789
Cleveland ca 1796
Atlanta ca 1837
Dallas ca 1841
Salt Lake City ca 1847
Denver ca 1858
Phoenix ca 1881
Las Vegas ca 1905

2 coastal on initial continent:
Washington ca 1790 (capitol)
New York City ca 1624**** (also potentially an English settlement)
Boston ca 1630*
Philadelphia ca 1681*
New Orleans ca 1718** (potentially Spanish as well)
San Diego ca 1769***
Los Angeles ca 1771***
San Francisco ca 1776***
Miami ca 1825
Houston ca 1837
Seattle ca 1851



3 non-coastal cities in another continent:
Juneau (alaska) 1881
I have nothing... I can easily expand the initial continental cities by another 5-10 if people would like.

4 coastal cities in another continent:
These are drawn for current and past American territories, as well as Hawaii and Alaska:
San Juan (Puerto Rico): ca 1501
Havana (Cuba) ca 1515
Manila (Philippines) ca 1574***
Charlotte Amalie (U.S. Virgin Islands): ca 1657**** (Saint Thomas is the name of the island, and perhaps a better name)
Guam ca 1668***
American Samoa: ca 1830s
Honolulu: ca 1898 (Hawaii was annexed as a territory in 1898, although was arguably influenced/claimed by America earlier).
Anchorage: ca 1914



Obviously some will appear on other lists, especially cities that were initially colonies of other civilizations. I would only argue that New York City, Chicago, San Francisco, San Diego, and Las Angeles should be exclusive to the US. Philadelphia and Boston have a lot of history as an English colony, but also are also extremely important cities in the American revolution and after.

Russian
Category 3 - non-existant, few major settlements offshore are non-coastal

Category 4 - shall we include Sakhalin? If not, them we'll have to use settlements in Russian America -

Novo-Archangelsk (administratve center)
Port Chichagov
Voskresenskaya (should shange to Seward when captured by USA)
Pavlovskaya Gavan' (1792)
Konstantinovsky (1793)
Slavorossiya (1796)
Fort Ross (Krepost' Rus in RFC, but even on Russian sites it is called Fort Ross)

Crosspost.

1. Are Swedish/Norwegian/Danish city names OK when I run out of Viking era city names?

2. Is for example Ireland considered another continent for Vikings(it would look stupid if Dublin would be built in Norway)?

3. Is for example Jorvik(York) appropriate city for the Vikings, as England will likely build York?

Arabia: 1.
Makkah
Al-Madinah
Dimashq
Baghdad
Najran
Mosul
Ar-Riyāḍ
Halab
Sanaa
Ammān
Al-Quds (it can be for many civs)

2. Al-Basrah
Gaza
Beirut
Masqat
Aden
Al-Qatif
Abu-Dhabi
Dubai
Al-Kuwait
Ad-Dammam
Salalah

3. Al-Qahira (Maybe Egyptian)
Aswan
Al Qayrawan
Fas
Gárnata
Harar
al-Kharṭūm
Sabha

4. Al-Iskhandariya
Al-Jazair
Tunis
Tarabulus
Banġāzī
Wahran
Dar-Beida
Rabbat
Maqadīshū
Zanji-bar
Tobruk

York
Bristol
Nottingham
Ipswich
Norwich
Birmingham
Cambridge
Canterbury
Newcastle
Blackburn
Manchester
Glasgow
Middlesbrough

London
Hastings
Edinburgh
Cardiff
Brighton
Portsmouth
Hull
Blackpool
Aberdeen
Belfast
Plymouth
Liverpool

Philadelphia
Toronto
Ottawa
Edmonton
Regina
Canberra
Winnipeg
Upington
Kimberley
Salisbury
Warwick

Jamestown
Boston
Baltimore
Bridgetown
Kingston
Sydney
Durban
Melbourne
Perth
Vancouver
Adelaide
Wellington
Port Elizabeth
Stanley

I like the list, but my one suggestion is to replace Middlesbrough with Leeds? It's part of the English Core Cities Group and is regarded 'by some' as the fastest growing city in the UK.

I know you will argue about the steelworks in Middlesbrough for including it, but in that case can we have the magnificent Port Talbot? ;)

I would also say it's very... ish... stuation to have places like Bristol, Glasgow, Misslesbrough and perhaps Newcastle as inland cities. Even Bristol, which is far from the coast, has/had a thriving port?

Great work so far btw Rhye, can't wait to play!!!

Dutch

1) Non-costal homeland
Utrecht
Arnhem
's-Hertogenbosch
Leeuwarden
Leiden
Maastricht
Nijmegen
Delft
Alkmaar
Groningen
Breda
Dordrecht
Apeldoorn
Zwolle

2) costal homeland
Amsterdam
Rotterdam
Den Haag (=The Hague)
Haarlem
Den Helder (Historical important)
Den Briel (Historical important)
Veere (Historical important)
Middelburg (Historical important, VOC HQ, currently non costal)
IJmuiden
Vlissingen
Terneuzen
Delfzijl

3) Non costal colonial (hard, as the Dutch didn't colonise continental and if they did, is was in jungle land, so not much)
Bloemenfontein
Johannesburg
Windhoek
Stellenbosch
Fort Nassau
Fort Oranje
Fort Zeelandia (many costal colonies are named likewise)
Noortwijck (New York area)

4)Costal colonies (New = Nieuw)
Kaapstad (in RFC Kaapstadt)
Nieuw Amsterdam (not only New York)
Nieuw Rotterdam
Walvisbaai (= whale Bay)
Batavia (= Djakatra)
Oranjestad
Willemstad
Mauritsstad
Paramaribo
Stabroek
Deshima (artificial island in Japan in the 1600's, Dutch tradingpost until the 1800's, also 't eyland Schisma)

Aslo many colonial cities were named Nieuw something, like Nieuw Utrecht, Nieuw Middelsburg,... but often very small towns.

One could aslo add the fictional Fort Tasman, as Tasman was an important explorer of the Dutch (Australia, New Zealand, Tasmania), but the Dutch never colonized these lands.

Concerning the English city list, I think it is a bit strange having Warwick in the offshore list. Although I realise there is Warwick in both Canada and Australia, the historical English city of Warwick is much better known.

Also, a couple more Russian offshore cities:

Inland Sakhalin: Buyukly
Coastal Kurils: Yuzhno-Kurilsk (Japanese name: Furukamappu)

Here's what I can come up with for Persia:

Historical:

Parsa (Persepolis) --> Becomes Takht-e-Jamshid (or Shiraz if you want an actual inhabited city nearby) in modern Persian
Pasargadae
Shush
Agbatana --> Hamedan (modern)
Ray --> Tehran
Bakhtar (Bactria)
Bagastana (Behistun)
Tisfun (Ctesiphon)
Samarqand
Bukhara

Modern:

Tehran
Esfahan
Shiraz
Mashad
Tabriz
Kerman
Yazd
Rasht
Abadan
Ahvaz
Borujerd

I would also say it's very... ish... stuation to have places like Bristol, Glasgow, Misslesbrough and perhaps Newcastle as inland cities. Even Bristol, which is far from the coast, has/had a thriving port?

I generally considered those cities the same as Rome: close to the coast, but not coastal.

Middelsburg


or Middelburg?

Middelburg, sorry, typo

@kbk

Some of your cities are wrong. New York was originally founded by the Dutch as New Amsterdam, then captured by the English to become the modern city.

Houston was founded by Texans, not Spanish. Once the Texan Revolution was done, Houston was built to become the capital. Houston (the person) did so, but his rival, Lamar, changed it to Austin, where it stays.

New Orleans was founded by a French, but controlled by the Spanish for many years.

Could Juno become a Class Three city. It's a city in Alaska, and I wouldn't consider it Continental U.S.

@ Rhye

Is Class Three merely a city on a different continent, or a city that was a colony of the core area. EX) Ephesus in Ionia. Technically another continent, but so close and in the RFC core area, it should be class one.

I still would use New York for American, as the Dutch founded more then one Nieuw Amsterdam.

@ Rhye

Is Class Three merely a city on a different continent, or a city that was a colony of the core area. EX) Ephesus in Ionia. Technically another continent, but so close and in the RFC core area, it should be class one.

Good question. I would consider Ephesus a colony, since we have no Greek colonies in America. Or maybe not. Depends on how many cities we gather in the lists.

Add Ekaterinburg before Novosibirsk in Russian city list.

@kbk

Some of your cities are wrong. New York was originally founded by the Dutch as New Amsterdam, then captured by the English to become the modern city.

Houston was founded by Texans, not Spanish. Once the Texan Revolution was done, Houston was built to become the capital. Houston (the person) did so, but his rival, Lamar, changed it to Austin, where it stays.

New Orleans was founded by a French, but controlled by the Spanish for many years.

Could Juno become a Class Three city. It's a city in Alaska, and I wouldn't consider it Continental U.S.


Fixed. I'm sorry, it was really late when I did this, being Dutch, I know full well about New Amsterdam :)

Good question. I would consider Ephesus a colony, since we have no Greek colonies in America. Or maybe not. Depends on how many cities we gather in the lists.

What about Greek colonies in Europe and the black sea? Japanese colonies in Asia? Arabians in India? Vikings in Russia, Ukraine, Ireland, Scotland?
Do you want Roman cities to be only Roman Italian cities or big settlements all over Europe?

Don't forget if you are making a continental list for greek cities, they founded 13 Alexandrias, 2 of which I believe were costal? ;). I really like the update. Keep up the great work Rhye.

Also, where are you guys getting your info for listing by founding date? This is very hard to find.

Viking list:

1:
Birka
Västerås
Södertälje
Viborg
Uppsala
Lund
Skien
Randers
Roskilde
Hedeby
Schleswig
Skara
Sigtuna
Linköping
Örebro
Odense
Ålborg

2:
Nidaros
Oslo
Tønsberg
Stockholm
Bergen
Helsingborg
Kalmar
Stavanger
København
Århus
Aalborg
Malmö
Ribe
Sarpsborg
Visby
Køge
Köpingsvik
Kaupang

3.
Cork
Limerick
Wexford
Skarðaborg
Grobiņa
Holmgård
Timerevo
(I really can't find any more colonial inland Viking cities.)

4.
Waterford
Dublin
Reykjavik
Tórshavn
Vinland
Kirkwall
Swansea
Klaksvík
Helluland
Markland
Hjaltland
Arklow
Brattahlíð
Hafnarfjörður
Reay

Edit: Sorted lists 1 and 2 by founding year(they're not exactly in founding order(I think it's better that Viborg, which is a city nowadays too, is earlier on the list than Sigtuna or Skara, which were founded earlier but are now much less important), but now more so than before).

Here's the updated French list.:)

Category One

1.Paris(52 B.C.)
2.Lyon(100 B.C.)
3.Avignon(Roman Times)
4.Reims(496 A.D.)
5.Chartres
.......,
6.Orleans
7.Toulouse
8.Dijon
9.Poitiers
10.Amiens
11.Rennes
12.Tours
13.Besancon
.............,
14.Metz
15.Clermont-Ferrand
16.Rouen
17.Limoges

Category Two

1.Bordeaux(350 B.C.)
2.Marseille(100-0 B.C.)
3.Brest
4.Montpellier
5.Le Havre
6.Calais
7.Nantes
8.La Rochelle
9.La Roche-sur-Yon
10.Nice
11.Saint-Nazaire
12.Caen
13.Perpignan

Category 3+4 coming soon as well as an American list unless kbk wishes to do this.

Criticism is welcome.

Here's Categories Three and Four.:)

Category Three
..........,
1.Quebec(1608)
...........,
2.Montreal(1642)
3.Baton-Rouge(1699)(Note:There's an accent circonflexe above the a in Baton!)
4.St.Louis(1703)
............,
5.Fort Detroit(1701)
6.Tadoussac(1599)
7.Fort Toulouse(1717)
8.Fort Niagara(1726)
9.Sault Ste-Marie(1668)
........,
10.Saul

Category Four
....................,
1.Nouvelle Orleans(1718)
2.Cayenne(1604)
3.Fort Caroline(1564)
4.Port Royal(1605)
5.Fort-de-France(1638)
6.Basse-Terre(1643)
7.Mobile(1702)
8.Biloxi(1699)
9.Port-au-Prince(1749)
10.Cap-Francais
.............'....,
11.Noumea(1864)

American city names coming soon unless kbk wishes to do this.

Constructive criticism is welcome!

11.Nouvelle-Caledonie(1864)

It's not a city, it is an island. The capital of New Caledonia is called Noumea.

Hitti-Litti, the Viking list looks more a modern Scandinavian list.
It should be consistent with the civ4 one and with the RFC map: Nidaros, Kalmar, Uppsala...

American city names coming soon unless kbk wishes to do this.



I'm happy to collaborate as much as you like. Some tweaking and additions will probably finish out the list.

kbk, you were Dutch, weren't you?
If you are, what do you think about my Dutch list, would you add some changes?

Delftzijl should be Delfzijl

So here are some American ones that I can come up with off the top of my head. I chose them for historical importance, population, and I additionally tried to be geographically diverse.

I am including the earliest date that these areas could be considered a settlement. Many were officially incorporated much later. In the case of indigenous populations, I present the date when the city or area received its first permanent European or American settlement. These dates I obtained from Wikipedia, so if you can back them up with a real source, I have no objections to changing them.

Additionally, some may need to be filtered and claimed by other countries.

*means initially founded by England
**means initially founded by France
***means initially founded by Spain or Mexico
****means initially founded by the Netherlands


1 noncoastal in initial continent:
Detroit ca 1701*
Pittsburgh ca 1758*
Chicago ca 1770*
Cincinnati ca 1788
Buffalo ca 1789
Cleveland ca 1796
Atlanta ca 1837
Dallas ca 1841
Salt Lake City ca 1847
Denver ca 1858
Phoenix ca 1881
Las Vegas ca 1905

2 coastal on initial continent:
Washington ca 1790 (capitol)
New York City ca 1624**** (also potentially an English settlement)
Boston ca 1630*
Philadelphia ca 1681*
New Orleans ca 1718** (potentially Spanish as well)
San Diego ca 1769***
Los Angeles ca 1771***
San Francisco ca 1776***
Miami ca 1825
Houston ca 1837
Seattle ca 1851



3 non-coastal cities in another continent:
Juneau (alaska) 1881
I have nothing... I can easily expand the initial continental cities by another 5-10 if people would like.

4 coastal cities in another continent:
These are drawn for current and past American territories, as well as Hawaii and Alaska:
San Juan (Puerto Rico): ca 1501
Havana (Cuba) ca 1515
Manila (Philippines) ca 1574***
Charlotte Amalie (U.S. Virgin Islands): ca 1657**** (Saint Thomas is the name of the island, and perhaps a better name)
Guam ca 1668***
American Samoa: ca 1830s
Honolulu: ca 1898 (Hawaii was annexed as a territory in 1898, although was arguably influenced/claimed by America earlier).
Anchorage: ca 1914



Obviously some will appear on other lists, especially cities that were initially colonies of other civilizations. I would only argue that New York City, Chicago, San Francisco, San Diego, and Las Angeles should be exclusive to the US. Philadelphia and Boston have a lot of history as an English colony, but also are also extremely important cities in the American revolution and after.

The coast is about an hour's drive from Philly and Washington isn't on the coast either, and they should probably be on the other list. You could move Cleveland to the other list, as it is on Lake Erie, or you could add Jacksonville, Oakland, and/or Virginia Beach. Also, Philadelphia should appear before every city barring New York and Washington, it's the fifth largest city in America, was the capital during the Revolution and is much more important than Boston.

Hitti-Litti, the Viking list looks more a modern Scandinavian list.
It should be consistent with the civ4 one and with the RFC map: Nidaros, Kalmar, Uppsala...

All of those cities in my list are really old, though I'll add Nidaros and Kalmar now to the list. As there haven't been any great wars in Scandinavia, many cities have been alive since Viking times(for example Södertälje, Lund, Västerås, Uppsala, Oslo, København, Bergen, Århus etc.). So it actually is a Viking city list too.

Edit: Just found out that Nidaros = Trondheim. I'll use Nidaros as the name.

Edit2: Should I use Viking names instead of English names(Wexford=Veisafjǫrðr, Dublin=Dyflinn)?

About Ceuta, Melilla and Tenerife, it's a tricky one, as they're not in Europe and therefore should they really be in list 2 or in 4? Tarragona, Cadiz and Vigo would fit in 2, although Tarragona was founded by Romans and Cadiz by Phoenicians. But then again, most Spanish, French, German, etc cities or important towns were founded by other civilizations, so...
Also Rosario isn't a coastal city, and should be in 3. Cartagena de Indias would fit in 4.

Here's the American city list.:)

Category One

1.Pittsburgh(1758)
2.Kansas City(1714)
3.Chicago(1770's)
4.Nashville(1779)
5.Cincinnati(1788)
6.Buffalo(1789)
7.Cleveland(1796)
8.Indianapolis(1821)
9.Atlanta(1837)
10.Minneapolis?(1837)
11.Dallas(1841)
12.Salt Lake City(1847)
13.Denver(1858)
14.Omaha(1854)
15.Boise(1863)
16.Bismarck(1872)
17.Phoenix(1881)


Category Two

1.Washington(1790)(Capital)
2.New York City(1624)(huge part of U.S. culture, Britain already has most of 13 colonies in their names)
3.Philadelphia(1682)(Similar reasoning to New York and Los Angeles)
4.Los Angeles(1781)(same reasoning as above but with spain)
5.Jacksonville(1791)
6.Miami(1835)
7.Sacremento(1839)(Spain already has basically all of California)
8.Houston(1837)
9.Portland(1843)(not on ocean but close enough)
10.Oakland?(1848)
11.Seattle(1851)
12.Virginia Beach(1891)

Constructive criticism is welcome.:lol:

Note: Most of info obtained from wikipedia!

3+4 coming soon!

Edit: Good ideas kbk(from post 51)

Category Three

1.Juneau(1881)
2.Fairbanks(1903)
(Can fill this in with Alaskan towns if you wish)

Category Four

1.Saint Thomas(1657)
2.Guam(1668)
3.American Samoa(1830's)
4.Midway(1867)
5.Honolulu(1898)
6.Kailua-Kona
7.Nome(1903)
8.Anchorage(1914)
9.Unalaska(1933)
10.Saipan(1986)

Construtive Criticism is welcome.:)

P.S. your list helped alot kbk.

Here are a few suggestions on the list Metal Alloy Man made. I also added accents:

1
Paris
Lyon
Orléans
Tours
Reims
Toulouse
Avignon
Chartres
Angers
Dijon
Poitiers
Amiens
Rennes
Besançon
Rouen

2
Marseille
Bordeaux
Le Havre
Nantes
Brest
Toulon
Nice
La Rochelle
Calais
Montpelier
Biarritz
Dunkerque

3
Québec
Trois-Rivières
Montréal
Bâton-Rouge
Fort Détroit
Fort Toulouse
Fort Niagara
Fort Dauphin
Ste-Marie
Saül

4
Saint-Louis
Nouvelle Orléans
Cayenne
Port Royal
Kourou
Fort-de-France
Pointe-à-Pitre
Port-au-Prince
Nouméa
Saint-Denis

I'm not sure about the order of 3 and 4 though.

EDIT: since coastal cities apparently can be up to 20km away from the sea, included Nantes and Montpelier back into the list.

Saint Louis is a coastal city? I know it's on the mississipi but I thought coastal meant ocean coastal. Trois Rivieres is a great addition. About the coastal cities, I know some aren't coastal but they're very close to the coast and played a more prominent role in history. It doesn't really matter though. That's just my reasoning.

P.S. I'm going to start working on a German list soon!

Oh, it's Sain-Louis in Sénégal, which was the first French colony and is one of the biggest Senegalese city, I did'nt think you were talking about the Mississipi one.

The coast is about an hour's drive from Philly and Washington isn't on the coast either, and they should probably be on the other list. You could move Cleveland to the other list, as it is on Lake Erie, or you could add Jacksonville, Oakland, and/or Virginia Beach. Also, Philadelphia should appear before every city barring New York and Washington, it's the fifth largest city in America, was the capital during the Revolution and is much more important than Boston.

By Rhye's request, the lists are ordered by founding date and not importance. He also set the precedent of cities being close to the coast being considered coastal. (After all, in RFC, Washington is a coastal city). Take a look at Metal Alloy Man's updated list.

I don't think cities on the Great Lakes should be considered coastal. We're talking about near the ocean when we talk about coastal.

@Metal Alloy Man:
I would rather see Saint Louis and Kansas City over some of the later cities in your list (no offense to Bismark and Boise). Saint Louis is a particularly important city as a gateway for colonization of the West.

Also, I still think we need to snag either Las Angeles or San Francisco from the Spanish. I would also really love to see Philadelphia or Boston taken from the English list too. These are quintessential American cities.

@kbk:

Saint Louis is already on the french list as well as Fort Detroit. These were very important French colonies and there are plenty of other cities we can use on the list. I edited the list to include Kansas City, Los Angeles and Philadelphia. Los Angeles and New York are both icons of American culture so they should be included. Philadelphia was very instrumental in the revolution so it should be included as well.

@Rhye:

Do you mind removing Philadelphia from the English list and replacing it with something else (Suez or Nassau)? Could you also replace Los Angeles on the Spanish list with something else as well?
We need these cities for the American list.

Thanks

:)Here are the German city names.:king:

Category One

1.Berlin(1157)(Capital)
2.Wien(200 B.C.)
3.Essen(700's)
4.Salzburg(700's)
5.Frankfurt(794)
6.Dortmund(880)
7.Stuttgart(950)
8.Prague(900's)
9.Warschau(1000's)
10.Breslau(1000's)
11.Leipzig(1015)
12.Pressburg(1000's)
13.Nurnburg(1050)(Note:Two dots over the u!)
14.Dusseldorf(1135)(Note:Two dots over the u!)
15.Munchen(1158)(Note:Two dots over the u!)
16.Hannover(1200's)
17.Dresden(1206)


Category Two

1.Bremen(150)
2.Hamborg(808)
3.Konigsberg(1255)(Note:Two dots over the u!)(Prussian Capital)
4.Danzig(980)
5.Lubeck(700)(Note:Two dots over the u!)
6.Ellbing(890)
7.Rostock(1000's)
8.Ollnburg(Oldenburg)(1108)
9.Stralsund(1168)
10.Griefswald(1199)
11.Kiel(1233)
12.Bremerhaven(1200's)
13.Wilhelmshaven(1869)

Constructive Criticism welcome.:)

Categories 3+4 coming soon!

I can live without St. Louis, and I support placing Philadelphia and LA on the American lists.

I don't think we should bother with any more Alaska towns for list #3, there just are not that many, and any other Alaska towns are going to be pretty unimportant.

I am satisfied with the American list. Just keep an eye out if any of the colonies/territory names appear on other lists.

kbk, you were Dutch, weren't you?
If you are, what do you think about my Dutch list, would you add some changes?

I should qualify that: I'm of Dutch ancestry, and hardly actually speak any dutch, but the list looks fine to me.

I think, for historical sake, that adding Belorussian/ Ukrainian names to the Russian list would actually be a good idea (Kiev, Odessa, Minsk, Alma-Ata in Kazakhstan, Azov). After all, the time of Kievan Rus is really when the Russians start in the mod.

Also, German cities in Poland/prewar Prussia/Hanseatic League (or their German names - Konigsberg was important, so was Danzig, Breslau, Pressburg [Bratislava], Prague...).

Fair warning: I may have gone overboard with detail here :crazyeye:

EDITS:
1) Umlauts sometimes do get used in scholarly transliteration, but I don't think they are that overwhelmingly important, since Joe Civer (i.e., you and I) probably can'tt pronounce Mongolian vowells correctly anyway.
2) I decided not to leave certain lists empty since I think there is precedence from the European system of naming colonial cities after political leaders and religious figures to validate giving expanded lists for each and every Civ.
3) Obviously, Beijing is better Chinese than Mongolian, even if the Mongols did found it, sorta, but Khanbaliq can be translated as just "Residence of the Khan," and thus isn't strictly tied to the location of Beijing. Also, Mongolia needs a coastal capital badly :(
4) About order of foundation, I went back and added the dates, but I didn't re-order the list.
Now, on with the original post:

I'll do Mongolia, since I'm living here and did a bit of study on this place and its history in grad school (I know, it's the internet, I could be anyone and say that, but you'll just have to trust me;) ). Apologies if I didn't match the RFC transcription, as I haven't had access to a Civ-capable computer in almost a year. Where I felt an explanation was necessary either for a city's inclusion or for my version of transcription, I included it. (As it turned out, this included every single city.) I guess I felt the need to do so much justifying since, as a primarily nomadic people, the Mongols haven't founded a whole lot of cities, excepting in the 20th century when they did so at the direction of Russian and Chinese Communists.

If anyone wants to work with me on making this list better, let me know and I'll happily collaborate. Constructive criticism is also welcome!

I- non-coastal cities in the continent

1. Kharakhorum- Standard transliteration of the Imperial Capital from the classical script (1220)
2. Ulaanbaatar- modern (Communist-era and later) name of the current capital, most accurate transliteration (1639 as Orgoo, 1706 renamed to Ikh Khuree, 1924 renamed to Ulaanbaatar)
3. Hohhot- capital of Inner Mongolia, also the Mongolian name, as opposed to the Chinese one. Also the capital of Altan Khan's sizable 16th century empire. (1580)
4. Ulaan-Ud - capital of the Buriat (formerly Buriat-Mongol) Republic of Russia, spelling is from Khalkh-Mongol (i.e., not Buryaad-Mongol/Russian), founded in 1666 as Udinskoye by Russian cossacks, renamed several times
5. Erkhuud - pre-Russian Mongolian name for the region that is today Irkutsk, and was populated almost exclusively by Buriat-Mongols (though this is disputed) before the Russian colonization of Siberia. Might be better as Russia's Irkutsk? Founded 1652 by Russians trading with Buriats.
6. Erdenet - Second largest city in Mongolia today (1975)
7. Darkhan - Third largest city in Mongolia today (1961)
8. Amarbayasgalant - large city-sized monastery complex in central-western Mongolia, built in the 1700s, survived Communism. (1727)
9. Sukhbaatar - Communist-era city in eastern Mongolia named after the barely pre-Communist revolutionary hero (1940)
10(a). Choibalsan- 4th largest city in Mongolia today, named after Mongolia's Stalinist dictator from the 30s through the 50s (1800s-ish)
10(b). Chahar - early 20th century semi-autonomous province of China covering large parts of what is today Inner Mongolia. Also an ethnonym for many Mongols in China. I offer this as an alternative since Choibalsan was a mass murderer. 1912.

II- coastal cities in the continent. As you can guess, this is a pain in the ass for landlocked Mongolia.
1. Khanbaliq - As you know, old Mongolian name for the city founded on the site of modern Beijing. Not really a coastal city, but kinda close? Moreover, it's the closest thing to a coastal capital the Mongols have ever had. Also, please do not use Dadu/Tatu, as that is a transcription of the Chinese name for this city. 1264
2. Olkhon - name of the island in the middle of Lake Baikal, which in Mongolian is referred to as Baigal Dalai, or Baikal Ocean, making this sort of a coastal location. sort of. 1987 - village of Khuzhir named administrative capital.
3. Khovsgol - province surrounding Lake Khovsgol in northern Mongolia, which is also called an Ocean (Dalai) in Mongolian. This lake is also home to the Mongolian Navy's one and only warship. I know this is a stretch :lol: Mongolian province of Khovsgol founded in 1931
4. Khalkh Gol - Gol is actually River, but Mongolia's a bit devoid of water. Anyway, rational: this abysmally tiny town (which I actually just visited last week) was the site of major fighting in 1939 between the Mongols and Soviets on one side and the Japanese and Manchu on the other.
5. Dalai Hot - Literally, "Ocean City." Completely fictional :lol:
6. Uvs Nuur - A lake in northwestern Mongolia
7. Hulun Nuur - A lake just across the Chinese border, but which still is recognized under its Mongolian name.
8. Khazaran - a Khazar city on the Caspian Sea. Not at all Mongolian, but nonetheless founded by a pseudo-Central-Asian nomadic people (major stretch) Somewhere between 600 and 1000AD
9. Gokturk - A collection of Turkic empires, originally (?) based in Mongolia, which stretched from the Caspian Sea to the Pacific Ocean. I think "Gok" might even mean "Blue" in Turkish. Also a major stretch. Between 551 and 747 AD
10. Shine Dalai Hot - "New Ocean City." Can you tell I'm struggling here?

III- non-coastal cities in another continent. Note: I took some liberties here, using both cities that have strong connections to Mongolia historically, but aren't really part of "Mongolia" as I alone define it and a few completely fictional names.
1. Kazan' - modern version likely founded by the Golden Horde, technically in Europe. Horde founding would have been in the mid 1400s.
2. Lhasa - strong connection to Mongolia for religious reasons, not founded by any other Civ in this game, and not really in "Mongolia." I know this is like having the French found Rome, but a Christian world without that city would be as curious as a Buddhist world without Lhasa. 641 AD - ish
3. Khem-Beldyr - post-1914 and pre-1926 name of Kyzyl, capital of the Tyva Republic, which borders Mongolia and has strong historical and cultural connections to Mongolia, despite being linguistically "Turkic" rather than "Mongolian." (these terms are extremely poorly defined in common usage, and if you have a counter-argument, chances are it's valid, but not definitive). Founded by Russians in 1914.
4. Samarkhand - Not at all Mongolian, but it was the capital of Tamerlane's empire, and he claimed descent from Chinggis Khaan. I'm kinda reaching on this one. Originally founded in 700BC-ish?
5. Shambala - Tibetan Buddhist utopia. Sometimes Mongolia gets called this. I know it doesn't make sense if in-game Mongolia isn't Buddhist, but if a European civ isn't Christian in the game, then they shouldn't be allowed cities that start with Saint, San, or Sao either.
6. Altyn Orda - (Golden Horde) successor state to the Empire, outside of "Mongolia." Not a city, but I'm out of ideas.
7. Chagatai Ulus - A successor state to the Empire, outside of "Mongolia." Not a city, but I'm out of ideas.
8. Hulagu Ulus - A successor state to the Empire, outside of "Mongolia." Not a city, but I'm out of ideas.
9. Shine Kharakhorum - New Kharakhorum
10. Shine Ulaanbaatar - New Ulaanbaatar

IV- coastal cities in another continent. Note: I took the same liberties here as with List III.
1. Elista - Capital of the Kalmyk (Khalmyg-Mongol) Republic inside Russia, and technically in Europe. Kinda near the Caspian Sea. 1865
2. Astrakhan - Also inside European Russia, heavily Kalmyk (historically), and also near the Caspian Sea. Also the former capital of the Astrakhan Khanate (which admittedly was more "Tatar" than "Mongol"), existed in the 1200s, but rebuilt in 1459-ish.
3. Avalokiteshvara Hot - Important Buddha. This one and the next few are proposed in keeping with the idea that European colonizers named their colonies after important figures in their respective versions of Christianity. I have *no* idea if the Mongols would have done this if they had gone on an overseas colonizing spree after their conversion under Altan Khan, but it's all I can think of at the moment to fill the gaps. Hot, meaning City, is a transcription of хот, which is technically incorrect, but keeps us consistent with the accepted spelling of Hohhot (which I like better than the technically more correct Khokhkhot for aesthetic reasons). Alternatives might involve adding the not strictly necessary genitive case (Avalokiteshvariin Hot), or just leaving out the word City altogether (Avalokiteshvara).
4. Amitabha Hot - Important Buddha
5. Manjushri Hot - Important Buddha (I think?)
6. Shakyamuni Hot - Important (historical!) Buddha
7. Chinggis Hot - If the Romans, French, English, etc. can name colonies after kings/emperors, then why not the Mongols! (variations might include adding the word Khaan, adding the genitive case, dropping Hot, or even using Chinggis Khaan's birth name Temujin)
8. Khubilai Hot
9. Ogedei Hot
10. Monkh Hot

Comments please! :D

Fabulous work, I think that the Mongolian city names are the hardest to come up with(well, Mali may be tough too, but we could use cities of Songhai and/or Ghana as Malinese cities).

Here are some Mongol city names. Some may be repeated from Al-Iskander's list. All were founded or captured by Genghis or his successors. Iskander, you can criticize at your leisure. These names were taken from books a few years ago; so I may be a little foggy on where I got the names:

1- non-coastal cities in the continent:
Karakorum - Genghis' capital.
Karakoto - one of the first cities taken by Genghis, named after the Kara-Kitai?
Urumchi - one of the first cities captured, and the area is part of the Mongol heartland.
Khanbalyk - Beijing. Also called Dadu by the Mongols. Too confusing?
Kaifeng - captured by the Jurchen (related to the Mongols), before Mongolia took over. In China, so it could be a stretch.
Kashgar - part of the Silk Road. Mongol power is noted for their control of the Silk Road.
Tashkent - destroyed by the Mongols, rebuilt by the Timurids. Silk Road again.
Samarkand - controlled by the Mongols again. See Al-Iskander's post.
Bokhara - Mongols destroyed it, Timurids rebuilt it, part of Silk Road. See Tashkent.
Tabriz - In northern Iran, but we should have enough Persian and Arab names?
Kabul - In Afghanistan. Could be Arab or Persian, but Persian name would be Kabura.
Herat - Afghanistan again. Aria in Persian, Artacoana to Alexander the Great.
Nishapur - razed by the Mongols, almost two million killed. May be better as Arab or Persian city.
Kirman - important Islamic cultural centre, so may be better for Arabia/Persia.
Shangtu - Kublai relocated his capital from Karakorum to here before moving to Khanbalyk (Beijing).
Basra - probably better as an Arab city. Was under Mongol control for over 100 years.
Maragha - in northwest Iran. Used as a base to attack Anatolia and the Levant.
Urga - original name of Ulaanbataar, Mongolia's modern capital. Renamed Ulaanbataar upon independence.
Tatung - Northern China, north of Beijing. Another Jurchen city taken by the Mongols. Also called Datong.
Sayram - Another Silk Road city. Today in Kazakhstan.
Chimkent - Caravanserai founded to protect Sayram. Genghis destroyed it, has been rebuilt.
Kukuhoto - see Al-Ikander's post for Hohhot. Another name for it, might be Jurchen.
Hangchow - Chinese capital of the Southern Song until it fell to the Mongols. May have been renamed Lin'an?
Chunking - Major city in Central China when it fell.
Balkh - Afghan city. Sacked by Genghis, then Tamerlane later. Ancient Bactra.
Kanchou - One of the last Chinese cities to fall. Modern Ganzhou (not Guanzhou).
Erdenet - current city/town in Mongolia. See Iskander's post.

2- coastal cities in the continent. I did not include any on Lake Baykal:

3- non-coastal cities in another continent. I have included Russian and Ukrainian cities here (Europe):
Kazan - see Iskander's post.
Astrakhan - a main trading centre for the Golden Horde.

4- coastal cities in another continent. Caucasian cities built on the Caspian are included here:
Serai - founded by Mongols in Russia. Supposedly was the capital of the Golden Horde for a while. Better than being named Old Serai like in the main game (see Berke Serai).
Berke Serai - founded by the Golden Horde to be closer to their Russian tributaries. Is thought to have been built in the Volga Delta, near the original Serai, by the Caspian (near Astrakhan). "Berke" is "New" in Mongolian (New Serai, like New Orleans and New York).
Derbent - In Caucasian Russia. Flourished under Mongol rule.

I don't seem to have any cities within category 2, though I did consider Aleppo (too close to being Babylonian, Persian, Greek, Roman, Turkish, Arab, etc.)

Here are category 3+4 of the German city list.

Category Three

1.Otjimbingwe(1849)
2.Weidmannsheil(1850)
3.Wituland(1858)
4.Luderitzbucht(1883))(Note:Two dots over the u!)
5.Windhoek(1885)
.............,
6.Yaounde(1888)
7.Bujumbura(1889)
8.Kigali(1907)
9.Bismarckburg(?)

Category Four

1.Klein Venedig(1529)
2.Grof Friedrichsburg(1683)
3.Krabbeninsel(1689)
4.Tertholen(1696)
5.Bagamoyo(1700's)
6.Dar es Salaam(1859)
7.Sebeib(1884)
8.Kaiser-Wilhelmsland(1884)
9.Marshallinseln(1885)
10.Swakopmund(1892)



Constructive Criticism welcome.:D

some ideas to the german list:

Category One

1. Berlin (~1200) (Capital)
2. Trier (16 BC) (considered as olderst german town)
3. Aachen (765) (HRE)
4. Frankfurt am Main (794)
5. Salzburg (~750) (now Austria)
5. Wien (BC roman founding, or ~900 firtst naming)
(austrian city and capital - only acceptable when germany is in the middle
age the HRE)
6. Prag (CZ: Praha) (~900)
(again only when germany = HRE, should be best named with the Czech
name, imo czech can be considered as equal language in this region before
the loss of the Hussite)
7. Stuttgart(950)
8. Nürnberg (1050)
9. Leipzig (1015)
10. München (1158)

other possible Cities:
Dortmund(880)
Düsseldorf(1135
Hannover(1200's)
Dresden(1206)
Halle, Magdeburg, Potsdam, Würzburg, Ulm, Karlsruhe, Köln, Schwerin, Goslar, Luxemburg, Essen ...

i think there are a lot of different lists possible

Category Two

1.Bremen (150)
2.Hamburg (808)
3.Lübeck (700)
4.Danzig (980) (now Poland: Gdańsk)
3.Königsberg (1255) (now Kaliningrad, Russia)
6.Elbing (890) (now Poland: Elbląg)
7.Rostock (1000's)
8.Oldenburg (low german: Ollnburg) (1108)
9.Stralsund (1168)
10.Greifswald (1199)
11.Kiel (1233)
12.Wismar (1000)
13.Wilhelmshaven(1869)

only changed the order and removed bremerhaven (if bremerhaven is included i wouldn´t include bremen as costal cities), corrected names and added today names and Wismar

for the other parts, difficult, if the Hanseatic League can be considered as german perhaps some town from there or the imperial german colonies or Helgoland

only some ideas

^ I like it.
Without wanting to hurt anyone, I think it'd be for the best if the lists were done by natives when possible.

Portugal

1.Coastal
Lisboa
Porto
Tavira
Faro
Leiria
Lagos
Aveiro
Viana do Castelo
Setúbal
Figueira da Foz

2.Inland
Braga
Coimbra
Silves
Viseu
Lamego
Bragança
Évora
Guarda
Castelo Branco
Tomar

My one question about cities by civ is when major modern cities were founded by other civs.

Example, America... Naturally, New York, Philadelphia, Boston, Chicago, Detroit, Houston, Los Angeles, Honolulu, and Charlotte (among others) were all founded by other nations. Are we saying that newly founded American cities won't use these names as they didn't found the cities IRL?

I am happy to help with the American lists if need be

After all, many great European cities were founded by the Romans...

^ I like it.
Without wanting to hurt anyone, I think it'd be for the best if the lists were done by natives when possible.

In that case, as a Canadian, that means I can only comment on overseas French and English lists? :)

Here is Mali. This does include some Songhai and Ghanaian cities (indicated):

1- non-coastal cities in the continent
Niani - the actual capital of Mali
Kangaba - pre Malian Empire capital
Timbuktu
Jenne
Gao
Taghaza
Walata
Tadmekka
Wadan
Awdaghost
Teodeni
Bilma
Agades
Titchitt
Kirina
Takedda
Kita
Kulikoro
Kumbi Saleh (G)
Kukiya (S)
Kitsina, also called Katsina (S)
Kano (S)
Zaria (S)
Segu (S)
Arawan (S)
Hombori (S)
Rano (S)
Tondibi (S)
Diara (S)
Bamba (S)
Bussa (S)
Say (S)

2- coastal cities in the continent

Nioro (G)

Unfortunately, Mali was a landlocked Empire. Nioro was controlled by Ghana (the only Empire who made it to the coast), so I kept it. The other Ghana and Songhai cities could be used as other non-continent cities, if need be.

In that case, as a Canadian, that means I can only comment on overseas French and English lists? :)
Well, you're definitely more entitled than me (native French) to do that, as long as you bear in mind that overseas French and English cities shouldn't only be in Canada :)

This is as good as I could do for Japan:

Japan

Noncoastal Continental
Kyōto (capital, 6th century, originally Heian-kyō)
Nagano (642)
Fukushima (12th century)
Yamaguchi (14th century)
Matsumoto (15th century)
Takayama (16th century)
Morioka (1597)
Nagaoka (1616)

Coastal Continental
Fukuoka (ancient times)
Ōsaka (3rd century)
Kōbe (3rd century)
Kagoshima (14th century)
Edo (1457, Tōkyō after 1603)
Nagasaki (before 16th century)
Hiroshima (1589)
Sendai (1600)
Nagoya (1610)
Shimonoseki (18th century)
Yokohama (19th century)

Noncoastal Noncontinental
Sapporo (late 19th century)
Mukden (ancient, Japanese after 1905, also Shenyang [don’t know the Japanese name, Mukden is Manchurian])
Toyohara (1905)

Coastal Noncontinental
Naha (ancient times)
Hakodate (1454)
Kushiro (1869)
Ōtomari (1905)
Keijō (conquered 1910, Japanese name for Seoul)

Niani- the actual capital of Mali


Isn't it Bamako?

Bamako is the current capital of Mali. Niani was the ancient Malian empire's capital. The original game has Kumbi Saleh as the capital.

And yes, I do know there are other overseas English and French colonies beside Canada. I won't forget. ;)

Could we add sime Okinawan cities to the Japanese list?

Hey Rhye, for your English cities:

Hamilton for list three. It was once a major town in Canada (still is, to a point).

For list four, I'd add Halifax (very important town and naval base for the English navy) and Victoria. Also, what about Belize?

Dutch

3) Non costal colonial (hard, as the Dutch didn't colonise continental and if they did, is was in jungle land, so not much)
Bloemenfontein
Johannesburg
Windhoek
Stellenbosch
Fort Nassau
Fort Oranje
Fort Zeelandia (many costal colonies are named likewise)
Noortwijck (New York area)

4)Costal colonies (New = Nieuw)
Kaapstad (in RFC Kaapstadt)
Nieuw Amsterdam (not only New York)
Nieuw Rotterdam
Walvisbaai (= whale Bay)
Batavia (= Djakatra)
Oranjestad
Willemstad
Mauritsstad
Paramaribo
Stabroek
Deshima (artificial island in Japan in the 1600's, Dutch tradingpost until the 1800's, also 't eyland Schisma)

Aslo many colonial cities were named Nieuw something, like Nieuw Utrecht, Nieuw Middelsburg,... but often very small towns.

One could aslo add the fictional Fort Tasman, as Tasman was an important explorer of the Dutch (Australia, New Zealand, Tasmania), but the Dutch never colonized these lands.

For list three: you can add Pretoria, and for list four, Pietermaritzburg

Here is Mali. This does include some Songhai and Ghanaian cities (indicated):

1- non-coastal cities in the continent
Niani - the actual capital of Mali
Kangaba - pre Malian Empire capital
Timbuktu
Jenne
Gao
Taghaza
Walata
Tadmekka
Wadan
Awdaghost
Teodeni
Bilma
Agades
Titchitt
Kirina
Takedda
Kita
Kulikoro
Kumbi Saleh (G)
Kukiya (S)
Kitsina, also called Katsina (S)
Kano (S)
Zaria (S)
Segu (S)
Arawan (S)
Hombori (S)
Rano (S)
Tondibi (S)
Diara (S)
Bamba (S)
Bussa (S)
Say (S)

2- coastal cities in the continent

Nioro (G)

Unfortunately, Mali was a landlocked Empire. Nioro was controlled by Ghana (the only Empire who made it to the coast), so I kept it. The other Ghana and Songhai cities could be used as other non-continent cities, if need be.

What about the coastal cities like Sefadu and that other one by the jungle in RFC. We can always use those as well.

As in the case of Beijing (mentioned earlier), with the city names not tied to tiles, is there any problem with having the same city when they are completely different? As given earlier Khanbaliq and Beijing. The average person would have no idea, and is it a big deal?

Now, names that are the same (or even quite similar, Fort Detroit vs Detroit) is a different story.

Just a question but for the Roman cities should we include modern day Italian cities or just cities founded by the Romans? Same with Roman and Italian colonies.

I would say just Ancient. There should be plenty of cities (especially if overlap is allowed, when significantly different). Italy is not a continuation of Rome and is only really connected via territory (as opposed to, say Germany and the HRE).

@Virdrago: Also a good list. I think something we need to work out is whether "another continent" means Europe or just things outside of what might be called "Mongolia," in a historical-ish sense. I favor the latter, since it gives us many more options, and since (with the exception of the invasions of Japan and Indonesia) oceans as we think of them haven't really been a big deal for the Mongols.

I have a bunch of comments on your list. Let me know what you think?


1- non-coastal cities in the continent:
Karakoto - one of the first cities taken by Genghis, named after the Kara-Kitai?
This city's name in Mongol literally means "Black City," sharing the "Khar" root found in Kharkhorum. I've never heard of it, but I'm not the last word on this sort of thing.
Urumchi - one of the first cities captured, and the area is part of the Mongol heartland.
Oh boy. The Uyghurs, Kyrgyz, and Chinese would dispute you on that one :D However, it *is* right next door to today's Mongolian lands, and is the capital of the "autonomous region" of a quasi-nomadic people that used to have the same writing system and religion as the Mongols. Also, I put Lhasa on my list, which is bound to infuriate someone in China, so there's no good reason not to use Urumqi too! However, I would put this in List 3, since it's not strictly "Mongol," in my personal view.
Khanbalyk - Beijing. Also called Dadu by the Mongols. Too confusing?
Again, Dadu is the Chinese name. Not confusing, just linguistically wrong, in my pedantic view :)
Kaifeng - captured by the Jurchen (related to the Mongols), before Mongolia took over. In China, so it could be a stretch.
Technically Lhasa and Urumqi are in "China" too, but Kaifeng is definitely in "China Proper," so maybe out.
Kashgar - part of the Silk Road. Mongol power is noted for their control of the Silk Road.
Hm, I like it! Kashgar has been important for the history of Inner Asia's nomadic peoples for as long as its existed (2000 years or so?), and no other Civ founds it (my logic for Lhasa, again), so why not?
Tashkent - destroyed by the Mongols, rebuilt by the Timurids. Silk Road again.
Bokhara - Mongols destroyed it, Timurids rebuilt it, part of Silk Road. See Tashkent.
I put Samarkand in my list, so there's no good reason not to include Tashkent or Bokhara, using the rationale that I used before. I would prefer to keep the number of cities of not strictly Mongolian origin to a minimum though, and was hoping to use Samarkand as simply a representative of most of "Turkic" Central Asia. Also, if I remember right, Samarkand crops up as an independent city in RFC as is, so it would be nice to see it again in some way.
Tabriz - In northern Iran, but we should have enough Persian and Arab names?
Kabul - In Afghanistan. Could be Arab or Persian, but Persian name would be Kabura.
Herat - Afghanistan again. Aria in Persian, Artacoana to Alexander the Great.
Nishapur - razed by the Mongols, almost two million killed. May be better as Arab or Persian city.
Kirman - important Islamic cultural centre, so may be better for Arabia/Persia.
Basra - probably better as an Arab city. Was under Mongol control for over 100 years.
Maragha - in northwest Iran. Used as a base to attack Anatolia and the Levant.
Balkh - Afghan city. Sacked by Genghis, then Tamerlane later. Ancient Bactra.
I think what you say about these cities being more Persian/Arabic/Islamic/etc is more correct. The Mongols who conquered and settled in these places, much like Khubilai Khan and his Yuen Dynasty in China, sorta merged with the local populous, losing their "Mongol nature," as big daddy Chinggis would have said :)
Shangtu - Kublai relocated his capital from Karakorum to here before moving to Khanbalyk (Beijing).
Good point, but Shangtu/Xanadu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xanadu) is Khubilai's summer palace just outside of what is today Beijing. I'm not sure it warrants being a city on its own.
Urga - original name of Ulaanbataar, Mongolia's modern capital. Renamed Ulaanbataar upon independence.
You raise a good point here, about cities whose names flip around through history. I would argue in favor of Ulaanbaatar since the city, in my view, was a good deal more important under that name than the other, both for the Mongols and Mongolia's relations with the wider world (being the seat of Communist power in Mongolia, and the name most people are more likely to have heard of).
Tatung - Northern China, north of Beijing. Another Jurchen city taken by the Mongols. Also called Datong.
Based on my 2minutes in Wikipedia (:lol:), I think the city may have been founded by the Chinese, but also based on an account by a traveler in the region in the 1910s that I read a few months ago (I know, I'm being snooty), the city was regarded as something like the last outpost of Chinese culture on the way to Mongolia. ./shrug
Sayram - Another Silk Road city. Today in Kazakhstan.
Chimkent - Caravanserai founded to protect Sayram. Genghis destroyed it, has been rebuilt.
I had never heard of these until now, but HOLY CRAP is Saryam old. Thanks for pointing this out, it's neat :) Again, for using these, it'll ultimately be a judgment call about how many not-strictly-"Mongol" cities we (and by we I mean Rhye and Rhye alone, in the end) want to use.
Hangchow - Chinese capital of the Southern Song until it fell to the Mongols. May have been renamed Lin'an?
Chunking - Major city in Central China when it fell.
Kanchou - One of the last Chinese cities to fall. Modern Ganzhou (not Guanzhou).
Judgment call: Too Chinese :(

4- coastal cities in another continent. Caucasian cities built on the Caspian are included here:
Serai - founded by Mongols in Russia. Supposedly was the capital of the Golden Horde for a while. Better than being named Old Serai like in the main game (see Berke Serai).
Berke Serai - founded by the Golden Horde to be closer to their Russian tributaries. Is thought to have been built in the Volga Delta, near the original Serai, by the Caspian (near Astrakhan). "Berke" is "New" in Mongolian (New Serai, like New Orleans and New York).
Hm. In no version of Mongolian that I've studied have I ever seen "berke" meaning "new." In my experience, it's always been "shine" "shin" "shinu" or something similar. Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berke) says Berke was the name of a Khan in the Horde. Again though, Wikipedia and I are not the final word on this, so we could easily be wrong :)

Anyway, I wondered about using Sarai too. I don't remember why I decided not to include it, but now I'm thinking it should definitely be included in list three after all. Thanks for pointing it out :)

Derbent - In Caucasian Russia. Flourished under Mongol rule.
Holy crap, this one's super old too! Much like Kashgar, Urumqi, Lhasa, Samarkand, etc., it's not founded by any of the other Civs in the game, but unlike those others, I find it difficult to justify as a "Mongol" city. Kashgar, Samarkand, and Urumqi are centers for formerly kinda-nomadic Central Asian-ish peoples, and Lhasa's been connected to the Mongols for centuries, if not more, but Derbent goes so far back and has changed hands so many times I'd have a tough time saying it deserves to be Mongol and Mongol only. Still an interesting suggestion though.

Conclusions!: The most important things (IMHO) that you brought up are Kashgar (founded before 76BC) and Sarai (founded in the mid-1240s). I would put both of these in list 3, since they're not strictly in "Mongolia," as I alone view it, and they aren't really near large bodies of water (Astrakhan is almost on the Caspian, and Sarai is about 120km farther inland, with New/Berke Sarai even farther away).

Also, Urumqi, Taskhent, and Bokhara, might be candidates for inclusion, but with them, as with Kashgar, Lhasa, and Samarqand, it'll be a judgment call on Rhye's part for how "Mongol" they are. I would advocate in favor of including them on the Mongols' List III since they have all been important for Central Asia's nomadic peoples, in the current version of RFC (I think? Correct me if I'm wrong?) no other Civ really founds them, and they have all cropped up as important in Mongolian history at various points, but especially (with the exception of Urumqi) during the Empire.

The competitors for these cities would be Russia and Persia (Tashkent, Bokhara, and Samarqand), and China (Lhasa, Urumqi, and Kashgar). My gut says these cities have been "historically" (whatever that means) more a part of the Uzbek, Tibetan, Uyghur, Kara-Khitan, and various other kinda-indigenous but-still-related nomad-type peoples in Inner Asia, rather than part of the "Civilizations" of Persia, Russia, and China, despite being under the control of those latter three at various points in history (many being important and protracted).

Anyway, I'll revise my list, incorporating your suggestions (thanks again!), and make a separate post for it later.

Mongolia City Lists, V2.0, this time with minimal commentary. If you want my and Virdragos reasons for various things, see the previous posts on Pages 3 and 4 of this thread.

Cities are now in the appropriate chronological order, going by original date of foundation, though with dates of renaming also included.

I- Non-coastal Cities on the Home Continent

1. Kharakhorum- 1220
2. Hohhot- 1580
3. Ulaanbaatar- 1639 as Orgoo 1924 renamed to Ulaanbaatar)
4. Erkhuud - Founded 1652 by Russians trading with Buriats.
5. Ulaan-Ude (Ulan-Ude) - founded in 1666 as Udinskoye, 1775 renamed to Verkhneudinsk, and 1934 to Ulaan-Ude
6. Amarbayasgalant – 1727
7. Choibalsan- 1800s-ish as Bayan Tumen, renamed in 1941
7(b). Chahar – (alternative because Choibalsan was a meanie) - 1912
8. Sukhbaatar - 1940
9. Darkhan - 1961
10. Erdenet - 1975

II- Coastal Cities on the Home Continent

1. Gokturk - Between 551 and 747 AD (very debatable validity, but perhaps better than a fictional city?)
2. Khazaran - Somewhere between 600 and 1000AD (very debatable validity, but perhaps better than a fictional city?)
3. Khanbaliq – 1264 (not really costal, but that’s as close as the Mongols will get)
4. Khovsgol - province of Khovsgol founded in 1931 (debatable validity, but perhaps better than a fictional city?)
5. Khalkh Gol - site of major fighting in 1939 (debatable validity, but perhaps better than a fictional city?)
6. Olkhon - 1987
7. Uvs Nuur - A lake, no permanent settlements until the 1930s.
8. Hulun Nuur - A lake, no permanent settlements until the 1930s.
9. Dalai Hot - Literally, "Ocean City." Completely fictional
10. Shine Dalai Hot – “New Ocean City.” Fictional

III- Non-coastal Cities on Another Continent

1. Samarkand - Originally founded in 700BC-ish (debatable validity, but perhaps better than a fictional city?)
2. Bokhara – officially 500BC-ish, leveled by the Mongols in 1220 (debatable validity, but perhaps better than a fictional city?)
3. Tashkent – 400BC-ish, leveled by the Mongols in 1219 (debatable validity, but perhaps better than a fictional city?)
4. Kashgar – 76BC-ish (debatable validity, but perhaps better than a fictional city?)
5. Urumqi – founded by the Tang Dynasty in 0AD-ish, dubbed Urumqi in 1954 (debatable validity, but perhaps better than a fictional city?)
6. Lhasa - 641AD – ish (debatable validity, but perhaps better than a fictional city?)
7. Kazan' - mid 1400s.
8. Khem-Beldyr - Founded by Russians in 1914 (debatable validity, but perhaps better than a fictional city?)
9. Shine Kharakhorum - New Kharakhorum. Fictional.
10. Shine Ulaanbaatar - New Ulaanbaatar. Fictional.

IV- Coastal Cities on Another Continent

1. Astrakhan - existed in the 1200s, but rebuilt in 1459-ish.
2. Elista - 1865
3. Avalokiteshvara Hot – Fictional, name of religious origin following European model
4. Amitabha Hot - Fictional, name of religious origin following European model
5. Manjushri Hot - Fictional, name of religious origin following European model
6. Shakyamuni Hot - Fictional, name of religious origin following European model
7. Chinggis Hot – Fictional, name of political origin following European model
8. Khubilai Hot - Fictional, name of political origin following European model
9. Ogedei Hot - Fictional, name of political origin following European model
10. Monkh Hot - Fictional, name of political origin following European model

V – Leftover Sorta-Cities:
1. Shambala – Buddhist Utopia, name of religious origin following European model
2. Altyn Orda – mid 1200s (not really a city)
3. Chagatai Ulus - mid 1200s (not really a city)
4. Hulagu Ulus - mid 1200s (not really a city)

As a general note, I'm verifiying the dates for city foundation by Wikipedia, since that's the one and only resource we all have access to and kinda-sorta trust.

Also, I know no one's put me in charge of this, so apologies if the following sounds presumptive, but I'd love more comments/constructive criticism etc :)

Any thoughts, Rhye? Specifically, how do you feel about fictional city names working on the West European Colonial Naming Model (newly coined term!) and Inner Asian cities of importance to Mongolia but which weren't directly founded by them (i.e., almost all of List III)?

This is as good as I could do for Japan:

I'll ask my labmate to know what they think of it ;)

What about Nara? It was, after all, a capital of Japan
Also, may we consider Sapporo as "non continental" ?

My one question about cities by civ is when major modern cities were founded by other civs.

Example, America... Naturally, New York, Philadelphia, Boston, Chicago, Detroit, Houston, Los Angeles, Honolulu, and Charlotte (among others) were all founded by other nations. Are we saying that newly founded American cities won't use these names as they didn't found the cities IRL?

I am happy to help with the American lists if need be

After all, many great European cities were founded by the Romans...

Actually Houston is arguably American. Okay, it was founded by the Republic of Texas.

The problem with excluding any cities founded by other civs is your going to have some wacky lists. For instance, instead of Chicago, we might get Topeka. I think we should look for cities that are iconic of the civ they represent.

Philadelphia should be American. It was the capital of the nation until Washington D.C. was built.

I think most American cities founded by other civs should be American. Britain, France, and Spain have plenty of other cities to gather from.

Sorry to bug people, but even having read this thread and preview 1, I still dont understand what this is, can anyone give me a brief explanation?

Elements of RFC like city naming, stability,... on a random generated map and not on the classical RFC earth map

Philadelphia and Boston should both be American. Philly is were the Constitution was written (along with the original capital and is still 5th in population), and Boston was a major center of the Revolution, so putting it under Britain would be so horrifically wrong, especially since there are cities of much less importance on the American list.

Elements of RFC like city naming, stability,... on a random generated map and not on the classical RFC earth map

ah, OK.... so a Civ5 preview then;)

I am in agreement that for a Random map game owner of the city shoudl be the Iconic owner, not necesarily who founded the city.

I am in agreement that America would look really strange without Boston, New York, Philadelphia, Chicago, Los Angeles, Houston and Detroit.

The question at hand was whether we were assigning ownership to a city based on founding or ownership during the cities importance.


Afterall, are we putting Cadiz on the Spanish list, or the Carthaginian (since there is no Phoenician civ although the Carthaginians were basically Phoenician) or the Arabs, who also owned and expanded the importance of the city.

One of my favorite feature of RFC is that when you conquer a city, its name changes, like Mediolanum becomes Milan or Mailand, Lugdunum Lyon, Etc... Will that be in RFC RAND? If so I imagine that'd involve quite o lot of extra work for the name lists.

"accents are important!!! Consider that with just a wrong accent, renaming system won't work. Use the character map for accents you haven't got on your keyboard", Rhye, post 1.

dionysos2048 does this answer your question.

^ Hmmm, thanks for that MAM. I take it the renaming system is seperate from the city lists then.

@Al-Iskander: I got a lot of these cities from reading about the Mongols a few years ago. I did check Wiki for verification on some I was unsure about, and found out that sometimes, the books included cities that weren't founded until the 1800s! (I left those out of my list.) You do have a better grasp than I do, since you are actually there, so I will not argue with you, especially about the Chinese/Persian/Arab cities. I'd like to have Serai and Berke Serai, though. :)

I agree, your idea on "outside the heartland" being out-of-continent does make more sense.

@Barak: I personally would have Cadiz as Gades for the Carthaginians. For the most part Carthage inherited a lot of the Phoenician colonies during their rise. Still, I don't know if there will be city name changes (when taken by another civ) or not. If not, Jerusalem may be in three or four lists (like Cadiz, even).

Again, from years of reading history books (I guess I am a civ-nerd), Wiki-backed when possible, here are some Khmer cities (I don't think anyone here is from Cambodia!):

1- for non-coastal cities in the continent

Angkor
Yasodharapura - first Khmer capital built at Angkor. Sanskrit translation: "Holy City", or "Capital City" by extension.
Isanapura - capital of the Khmer kingdom of Chenla.
Hariharalaya - another former capital.
Sambhupura - captured by Jayavarman II. On the Mekong.
Ba Phnom
Suryaparvata
Wat Phu - temple complex associated with Shrestapura, a Chenla or Champa city. Shrestapura may be a better option, since its a city.
Mahendraparvata - founded by Jayavarman II.
Aninditapura
Lovek - capital in the sixteenth century.
Pursat
Koh Ker - capital under Jayavarman IV and Hasavarman II.
Pimai - also Phimai.
Udong
Mahanokor - could also be Wat Nokor?
Siem Reap - means "defeat of Siam".
Beng Melea - Ancient Khmer city.
Phnom Penh - current capital, after Koh Ker.
Batdambang - founded in the 11th century.
Lomphat
Kampong Svay - another ancient Khmer city.
Kracheh - also called Kratie.


2- for coastal cities in the continent

Prey Nokor - Now Ho Chi Minh City (Saigon). Main Khmer port until the 17th century.
Chaudoc - Now in southern Vietnam.
Kampot

3- for non-coastal cities in another continent

Klong Thom - supposedly in modern Thailand.

4- for coastal cities in another continent

Indrapura - Cham city conquered by the Khmer. Today's Dong Duong in Vietnam.
Kauthara - Another Cham city captured by the Khmer, around 945.

Rhye: since there are so many duplicate names of same cities (Jerusalem has probably 5 or 6 names depending on the civ), can you make it so that once its founded, other civs cannot use their name for that city? E.g. if China founds Beijing, Mongolia cannot found Khanbaliq/Dadu. So that in the end, there will just be one city with that name. Of course other civs are welcome to conquer it and change the name.

A few thoughts:

- I think that we should keep things simple and assign a city only to one civ.

- Please no ficticial names

- Use RFC city names where possible. Open CityNameManager.py, it will help a lot. For example, to make sure you didn't mispell it or used another translitteration

- I'm not posting here very often because I'm working on other aspects of the mod, and fixing bugs. So, my idea is to gather all the lists when they are done, do a quick check myself and add them to the already complete mod

@Rhye:

Do you mind removing Philadelphia from the English list and replacing it with something else (Halifax, Hamilton or Nassau)? Could you also replace Los Angeles on the Spanish list with something else as well?
We need these cities for the American list.

Thanks

Is this okay with you Rhye?

Also, I don't mean to pester or nag you, but any ideas on a release date because I just can't wait for RFC random.

Babylon, and then I'll stop and let other's opinions and lists take shape:

1- for non-coastal cities in the continent

Babylon
Erech/Uruk
Lasar/Larsa
Nippur
Akkad/Agade
Eshnunna
Kish
Isin
Zariqum
Opis
Borsippa/Barsippa
Anatho
Sippar
Zuruban


2- for coastal cities in the continent

Eridu
Ur
Lagash
Kesh - not the same as Kish (see above).

3- for non-coastal cities in another continent

Calchu/Calah - Assyrian city of Nimrud.
Cuthah - Assyrian or Iranian plateau city.
Mari - west of original Babylonian power.
Thapsacus - tributary from Syria.
Shushan - conquered by Akkadians and Babylonians at least three times.

4- for coastal cities in another continent

Any constructive criticism would, of course, be appreciated.

A few thoughts:
- I think that we should keep things simple and assign a city only to one civ.
Fair enough. Do you want us to wrangle out who gets what city, or will you let us know who gets what?
- Please no ficticial names
Word. I'll amend and re-post my Mongol list to reflect that.
- Use RFC city names where possible. Open CityNameManager.py, it will help a lot. For example, to make sure you didn't mispell it or used another translitteration
I don't have a personal computer to open that up on, and I don't want to download the whole mod onto my work computer. Can someone send me just this file, or PM me the Mongolian city list from it? Thanks if you can :)

Mongolia City Lists, V3.0, this time with even less commentary. Fictional cities removed, both Sarai cities added to list III. Moved Khazaran to list 4, since it's not anywhere near Mongolia.

I- Non-coastal Cities on the Home Continent

1. Kharakhorum- 1220
2. Hohhot- 1580
3. Ulaanbaatar- 1639 as Orgoo 1924 renamed to Ulaanbaatar)
4. Erkhuud - 1652 , likely to be assigned to Russia as Irkutsk
5. Ulaan-Ude (Ulan-Ude) -1666 as Udinskoye, 1775 renamed to Verkhneudinsk, and 1934 to Ulaan-Ude
6. Amarbayasgalant – 1727
7. Choibalsan- 1800s-ish as Bayan Tumen, renamed in 1941
7(b). Chahar – (alternative because Choibalsan was a meanie) - 1912
8. Sukhbaatar - 1940
9. Darkhan - 1961
10. Erdenet - 1975

II- Coastal Cities on the Home Continent

1. Khanbaliq – 1264 (closest to costal, probably to be assigned to China as Beijing)
2. Khovsgol - 1931 (debatable validity)
3. Khalkh Gol - site of major fighting in 1939 (debatable validity)
4. Olkhon - 1987
5. Uvs Nuur - A lake, no permanent settlements until the 1930s.
6. Hulun Nuur - A lake, no permanent settlements until the 1930s.
7. [Empty Slot]
8. [Empty Slot]
9. [Empty Slot]
10. [Empty Slot]

III- Non-coastal Cities on Another Continent

1. Samarkand - Originally founded in 700BC-ish (debatable validity)
2. Bokhara – officially 500BC-ish, leveled by the Mongols in 1220 (debatable validity)
3. Tashkent – 400BC-ish, leveled by the Mongols in 1219 (debatable validity)
4. Kashgar – 76BC-ish (debatable validity)
5. Urumqi – founded by the Tang Dynasty in 0AD-ish, dubbed Urumqi in 1954 (debatable validity)
6. Lhasa - 641AD–ish (debatable validity)
7. Sarai Berke – 1245-ish
8. Shine Sarai (New Sarai) – before 1395
9. Kazan' - mid 1400s
10. Khem-Beldyr - 1914 (debatable validity)

IV- Coastal Cities on Another Continent

1. Khazaran - Between 600 and 1000AD (very debatable validity)
2. Astrakhan - existed in the 1200s, but rebuilt in 1459-ish.
3. Elista - 1865
4. [Empty Slot]
5. [Empty Slot]
6. [Empty Slot]
7. [Empty Slot]
8. [Empty Slot]
9. [Empty Slot]
10. [Empty Slot]

NEED HELP on the first city for List II. Assuming Khanbaliq/Beijing is awarded to China, Mongolia will be left with the name of a particularly small settlement on a inland lake (Khovsgol) as its capital, even if that lake is called an Ocean by the locals. This would amuse my Mongolian friends to no end, but I'm not sure it's the best thing to do. Also, neither Erkhuud/Irkutsk nor Ulan-Ude are truly coastal, both being over 50 miles from Baikal, which is still a lake.

Will Mongolia's capital always be Karakorum no matter where the Mongols start, and if not does anyone know a city that could be the coastal capital?

Take your decisions, I'll just do a final revision. That was the point of letting you partecipate.

Release date is likely to be mid-July.

In that case, I’m voting for assigning Khanbaliq to China as Beijing and Erkhuud to Russia as Irkutsk, but keeping Astrakhan as Mongol (in contravention of Lone Wolf’s list, sorry!). Because of this I also recommend having Kharakhorum be the capital no matter where the Mongols spawn, due to the lack of Mongolian coastal cities in our world’s history.

Changes in this version: 1) removed Khanbaliq and Erkhuud, 2) removed empty slot placeholders, “debatable validity” indicators and certain other notes 3) tried to bring spelling into line with the CityNameManager file as much as possible, 4) dropped Chahar’s status as alternative, since I removed Erkhuud.

I- Non-coastal Cities on the Home Continent

1. Kharakhorum- 1220
2. Hohhot- 1580
3. Ulaanbaatar - 1639
4. Ulaan-Ude (Ulan-Ude) -1666
5. Amarbayasgalant – 1727
6. Chojbalsan – 1800s
7. Chahar – 1912
8. Sukhbaatar - 1940
9. Darkhan - 1961
10. Erdenet - 1975

II- Coastal Cities on the Home Continent

1. Khovsgol - 1931
2. Khalkh Gol - site of major fighting in 1939
3. Olkhon - 1987
4. Uvs Nuur - Lake, permanent settlement in 1930s
5. Hulun Nuur - Lake, permanent settlement in 1930s

III- Non-coastal Cities on Another Continent

1. Samarqand - 700BC-ish
2. Bukhara - 500BC-ish, leveled by the Mongols in 1220
3. Tashkent – 400BC-ish, leveled by the Mongols in 1219
4. Kasgár – 76BC-ish
5. Urumqi – founded by the Tang Dynasty in 0AD-ish, dubbed Urumqi in 1954
6. Lhasa - 641AD–ish
7. Sarai Berke – 1245-ish
8. Shine Sarai (New Sarai, which was separate, while Sarai Berke and Sarai Batu were probably the same city) – before 1395
9. Kazan - mid 1400s
10. Khem-Beldyr – 1914

IV- Coastal Cities on Another Continent

1. Khazaran - Between 600 and 1000AD
2. Astrakhan - existed in the 1200s
3. Elista – 1865

Final Note: Unless someone else wants to toss in more suggestions, I’m gonna stick a fork in this list and call it done :)

Final Note: Unless someone else wants to toss in more suggestions, I’m gonna stick a fork in this list and call it done :)

Good job though, very thorough. :goodjob:

Thanks Bliz :) If you liked that one, then you'll *love* the sequel! :mischief:

The below are my Russia Lists variations, based on Lone Wolf’s lists on page one, Virdrago’s suggestion on page 3, and my own thoughts. Most of my changes involved including “Siberian” cities as “on another continent,” for the purposes of Lists III and IV, since in our world they are technically in Asia. Also, in RFC, one of Russia’s UHVs is to colonize “Siberia,” which is in “Asia,” which is treated as a separate continent in RFC, as in the English UHV, for example.

Also, I removed Astrakhan from Lone Wolf’s list, as it was fairly clearly founded by a non-Russian entity, and today has strong connections to the “Mongol” world through its Kalmyk population.

I admit that I’m not at all Russian in my ancestry, and open to all of the criticisms and shortcomings that come with that. However, I did study a bit of Russian history in graduate school too, I speak and read Russian passably well, and I’ve also lived there (Moscow and Ulan-Ude). There I go again with my unverifiable claims of my qualifications :lol:

Regarding the inclusion of Kiev, putting that in would get us embroiled in the Ukrainian-Russian (or Little Russian vs. Great Russian) nationalist debate, which just gives me a headache. I know “Rus” started in Kiev and that in RFC Russia spawns around the time of Kievan Rus. However, RFC Russia’s capital is Moscow (not Kiev), so there’s already precedent within the mod to start with Moscow instead of anything else. Also, much of “Russia’s” glory days come well after Kievan Rus. Lastly, the “Rus” who founded the Kievan Dynasty were technically Viking-type peoples. I think we can therefore weasel our way out of including Kiev in RFC RAND.

The cities on List II that are now in Ukraine, however, were technically sorta founded by the “Russian” state, and their inclusion in Ukraine today can, in RFC terms, be accounted for as becoming “independents” :) I kept them in for those reasons.

Also, all dates below are AD and spelling should be in line with the CityNameManager file (Livorno FTW). The cities are also in their order of foundation (with the exceptions of Moscow and St. Petersburg), as requested by Rhye.

List I – Non-Coastal Home Continent
1. Moskva –1147, but should still be the landlocked capital, due to its status as such in RFC
2. Rostov – 862 or so
3. Smolensk – 863 or so
4. Pskov – 903 or so
5. Novgorod – 950s or so
6. Jaroslavl – 1010 or so
7. Kursk – 1032 or so
8. Vladimir – 1108 or so
9. Nizhnij Novgorod – 1221
10. Tula – 1300s
--Past the 10 City Limit--
11. Voronezh – 1585
12. Samara - 1586
13. Volgograd - 1589
14. Perm - 1647
15. Izhevsk – 1760

List II – Coastal Home Continent
1. Sankt Peterburg (Should be the capital if Russia spawns on the coast. Also, it doesn’t seem right to have it built after Jalta.) – 1703
2. Jalta – 1150 or so (this would be Yalta, but spelled under the transliteration system RFC uses, in case anyone's confused)
3. Arkhangelsk – 1584
4. Sevastopol – 1783
5. Rostov-na-Donu – 1794
6. Odessa – 1794
7. Novorossijsk (Black Sea) – 1838
8. Sochi – 1864
9. Murmansk - 1916

List III – Non-Coastal Other Continent (Including Siberia here)
1. Tobolsk – 1585
2. Tjumen – 1586
3. Tomsk – 1604
4. Krasnojarsk – 1628
5. Jakutsk – 1632
6. Irkutsk – 1652
7. Krasnojarsk – 1628
8. Omsk – 1716
9. Ekaterinburg (just barely on the eastern side of the Urals) – 1723
10. Barnaul – 1730
--Past the 10 City Limit--
11. Cheljabinsk -1763
12. Khabarovsk – 1858
13. Novosibirsk – 1893
14. Kemerovo – 1918

List IV – Coastal Other Continent (Including Siberia here)
1. Petropavlovsk – Kamchatskij – 1740
2. Pavlovskaja Gavan' - 1792
3. Voskresenskaja (change to Seward if captured by USA) – 1793
4. Konstantinovsky – 1793
5. Slavorossija – 1796
6. Port Chichagov – around 1800 (?)
7. Novo-Arkhangelsk – 1804
8. Krepost' Ross (see Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Ross). Here I intentionally deviated from the RFC official spelling, since it looks like both Rhye and Lone Wolf are right :) Krepost’ does just mean Fort, and Ross can be a short form of Rossiya, the Russian name for Russia. It might be renamed appropriately on capture by anyone.) – 1812
9. Vladivostok (any way to guarantee that it be founded on an east coast? If not, it should be Vladisever, Vladiyug, or Vladizapad… or not :P .) – 1860
10. Magadan – 1930s

Thoughts? Suggestions? Criticisms of my capitalist-imperialist revisions of the history of the Motherland? ;) I'd especially like commentary on which cities on Lists I and III can be dropped, since there are too many on each.

The Russian bases in Antarctica should I think be included in Category III. There are a few to choose from.

Here's a Roman one (Italians, feel free to rip me to pieces :P)

I've only included cities founded or refounded by the Romans, and have used Italian cities for lists 1 and 2 and others for 3 and 4. The former means a lot of notable cities aren't included, though.

1- for non-coastal cities in the continent
Roma
Antium (?)
Beneventum (286 BCE)
Modena (183 BCE)
Parma (183 BCE)
Pompeii (80 BCE)
Faesulae (~80 BCE)
Capua (I think Caesar founded a veterans' colony here?)
Augusta Taurinorum (28 BCE)
Augusta Praetoria Salassorum (24 BCE)

2- for coastal cities in the continent
Ostia Antica (7th century BCE)
Terracina (329 BCE)
Tarentum (122 BCE)

3- for non-coastal cities in another continent
Italica (206 BCE)
Metellinum (80 BCE)
Corinthiensis (44 BCE)
Lugdunum (43 BCE)
Emerita Augusta (25 BCE)
Bracara Augusta (20 BCE)
Augusta Treverorum (16 BCE)
Augusta Rauracorum (15 BCE)
Augusta Vindelicorum (15 BCE)
Augusta Suessionum (Augustus)
Londinium (50 CE)
Camulodunom (43 CE)
Eboracum (71 CE)

4- for coastal cities in another continent
Dyrrachium (229 BCE)
Colonia Iunonia/Carthago (122 BCE)
Narbo Martius (118 BCE)
Tarraco (?)
Hippo Regius (?)
Thapsus (46 BCE)
Patras (Augustus)
Nova Roma/Constantinopolis (330 CE)

^ What about Mediolanum?

and Brundisium? Messana is also an option as well although I'm not sure if thats the proper Roman name or is actually a Greek colony like Cumae and Neapolis.

Those are all pre-Roman cities which were conquered. Although perhaps I've been too strict in that respect.

You can't argue with the fact that they're part of the Roman heartland, though(Italia being the true Roman heartland). I think that's a good enough reason to include them. You also have to remember that Rome certainly doesn't conquer them in RFC, it settles them.

In some ways these Roman cities fall into the same category as New York, Boston and PHiladelphia as cities that were founded by other nations, but rose to prominance and importance with Rome.

All lists are bound to be criticized, so I hope you don't take it personally, however, I also think that Longdonum Lugdunum and Constantinopolis should be in the English (London), French (Lyon) and Turkish (Istanbul) lists.

Here's categories 1+2 of the Indian city list.:goodjob:

Category One

1.Delhi(2000 B.C.)(Capital)
2.Lahore(2000 B.C.)(in pakistan)
3.Varanasi(1000 B.C.)
4.Nagpur(700 B.C.)(Note:Line over the a!)
5.Takshashila(518 B.C.)
6.Patna(490 B.C.)
7.Ujjaini(400 B.C.)
8.Agra(150 A.D. or 1504 A.D.)
9.Bengaluru(500 A.D.)
10.Dhaka(600 A.D.)
11.Raipur(800 A.D.)
12.Bhopal(1000 A.D.)
13.Lakhnau(1350 A.D.?)
14.Indore(Mughal Times)
15.Amritsr(1574 A.D.)
16.Hyderabad(1591 A.D.)
17.Jaipur(1727)


Category Two

1.Chittagong(ancient times)
2.Thiruvananthapuram(1000 B.C.)
3.Visakhapatnam(500 B.C.)
4.Orugallu(300 B.C.)
5.Mumbai(250 B.C.)
6.Govapuri(200 B.C.)
7.Cochin(?)
8.Kolkatta(0 A.D.)
9.Tanjapuri(0 A.D.)
10.Chennai(0 A.D.)
11.Karachi(712 A.D.?)(in pakistan)
12.Surat(1400's)
13.Berhampur(?)
14.Kakinada(?)
15.Pitikapuram(?)

Constructive Criticism is welcome:). This is more like a rough draft than an actual list and any additional information is more than welcome.

I think Hyderabad should be on that list, it has the fifth largest metropolitan area in India. Though it was founded in 1591, so it might be why you didn't include it.

I think Hyderabad should be on that list, it has the fifth largest metropolitan area in India. Though it was founded in 1591, so it might be why you didn't include it.

It's in there(#15).

Ooh... :blush:

Re Kiev:
It is a hugely important city, it would be a great shame to not include it.
While it is not "Russian" per se, it was a major city of the Russian Empire and Soviet Union and no other civ has a great claim to it. So even ignoring the history of the Kievan Rus, the Russians should have it.

Kiev is in Viking list, as Vikings founded that city.

I agree Kiev should be Russian

Removed Kiev/Kjönugård from Viking list.

List II – Coastal Home Continent
1. Sankt Peterburg (Should be the capital if Russia spawns on the coast. Also, it doesn’t seem right to have it built after Jalta.) – 1703
2. Jalta – 1150 or so (this would be Yalta, but spelled under the transliteration system RFC uses, in case anyone's confused)
3. Arkhangelsk – 1584


A good list, but I don't think Yalta should be on the list in such a prominent position, because it has never been Russian until after the Russian-Ottoman wars of late 18th century. If anything, it should be part of the colonial Byzantine city list (if Byzantines make it as a major civ in RFC RAND!). After that it's main importance was as a summer resort, so it would be strange to see it in Civ as as a powerhouse city (coming so high up in the list)

Regarding Kiev, I still think it should be included in the Russian city list, probably after Moscow. Since the 17th century it has been a very important part of any Russian "empire", and originally much of Russia's culture stemmed from Kiev. It's role is hard to underestimate.

List IV – Coastal Other Continent (Including Siberia here)
1. Petropavlovsk – Kamchatskij – 1740
2. Pavlovskaja Gavan' - 1792


Oh yes, and add Okhotsk to the top of the list - it was the first Russian east coast settlement in Siberia. The first camp was built in 1643.

I suggest that the French list needs to have more African colonial cities.... Libreville, Fort-Lamy, Dakar, Gorée. And especially more Algerian cities; don't forget that the French considered Algeria to be an integral part of metropolitan France -- Algiers, Oran, Philippeville, Constantine, Cherchell, Boné.

Here's an attempt at the Inca lists:

1
Qusqu
Wantar Chawin (oldest settlement in America, should be renamed as Chavín de Huántar if conquered by Spain))
Ariqipaya
Quitu
In RFC files Cajamarca (A Spanish name. Kashamarka in Quechua)
Huamanga
Willkapampa (should be renamed to Vilcabamba if conquered by Spain)
Machu-Pikchu
Ullantaytanpu
Andahuailas
In RFC files Huaraz (Definitely a Spanish name, Waras in Quechua)
Tomebamba
Kuélap

2
Chan-Chan
Nazca
Tiyawanaku (used to be on Titicaca, but as close as what the original Incan knew as a sea)
Tucume
Pachacamaq
Punu (on Titicaca, but as close as what the original Incan knew as a sea, should be renamed as Puno if conquered by Spain)

I suggest that the French list needs to have more African colonial cities.... Libreville, Fort-Lamy, Dakar, Gorée. And especially more Algerian cities; don't forget that the French considered Algeria to be an integral part of metropolitan France -- Algiers, Oran, Philippeville, Constantine, Cherchell, Boné.

I agree with you for sub-saharian African cities, as long as they're not on the Mali lists. On the other hand, for Maghreb cities, they should be on Carthage lists, or on Arabian lists rather than the French lists.

I agree with you for sub-saharian African cities, as long as they're not on the Mali lists. On the other hand, for Maghreb cities, they should be on Carthage lists, or on Arabian lists rather than the French lists.

I disagree -- the Carthaginians never had cities named Philippeville, Constantine, or Oran, and it would be ahistorical to include those in the Carthage list. Some of these -- such as Philippeville -- were French-specific names anyway (the city was renamed Skikda after the French left in '62.)

jkp1187, if the French founded these cities then go ahead and add them to the list. If they conquered these cities then they should be on the founding civ's list.

I'll ask my labmate to know what they think of it ;)

What about Nara? It was, after all, a capital of Japan
Also, may we consider Sapporo as "non continental" ?

I completely missed Nara, but it would be a good inclusion. I left Hokkaido as noncontinental (you see Sapporo, Hakodate and Kushiro on the noncontinental lists) because it wasn't settled by ethnic Japanese until far later than the rest of the major islands. Hakodate was the only Japanese settlement on the island for centuries before settlement began in earnest in the 1800s.

I could probably do better than that list if I made a serious attempt at it; that was a half-hour sitting.

I disagree -- the Carthaginians never had cities named Philippeville, Constantine, or Oran, and it would be ahistorical to include those in the Carthage list. Some of these -- such as Philippeville -- were French-specific names anyway (the city was renamed Skikda after the French left in '62.)

Actually Constantine was called Sarim Batim under Carthaginian rule, then named after the Roman emperor Constantin, by the Romans, then renamed Qusantina by the Arabs. The French call it Constantine, but it's only one city, one can't have a game with 3 separate cities on the same map having 3 different names, but representing only one city in history.

Likewise, Oran (Wahran in Arabic), Has been Arab, Spanish and also Turkish for a long time.

Philippeville on the other hand was built on the ruins of Roman Rusicada, and it looks like it wasn't a significant city under Carthaginian or Arab rule, so it may be a good candidate for the French list.

jkp1187, if the French founded these cities then go ahead and add them to the list. If they conquered these cities then they should be on the founding civ's list.

Fair point. The French definitely founded/organized most of the cities on the sub-Saharan list (Libreville, Dakar, Fort-Lamy, etc.) And they did found Philippeville and Boné. Some of the other Algerian cities are a bit harder to say....Algiers was really founded as "Ikosim" under the Phoenicians. Constantine was founded by the Byzantines. All else being equal, "Algiers" probably belongs on the Arab list, but it just doesn't seem right to include a few French Algerian cities but leave Algiers off the French list.

I suggest that Mers El Kébir go on the French list, even though it wasn't a French "original city" because of its importance as a French Navy base -- it was also the location of the British attack on the French fleet during WW2 (to keep it out of German hands). The French also used it as a location for underground nuclear testing later on.

(EDIT: I was typing this off and on while eating lunch, so I cross-posted with dionysos2048, who made similar points.)

Are there are going to be independents in RFC RAND? if they are in (I guess they are in because of civil wars and such) than Jerusalem and other cities should be independent and not on any civ's list.

Intersting point Lokolus, however, I think independents should only be created only from other civs collapsing. I don't think we really need to have independent cities spawn randomly as barbarian cities already fill this role to a certain extent. It just seems a little redundant to me to have a map covered with independent cities and barbarian cities when you spawn.

What would you think about that list then?


1
Paris
Orléans
Lyon
Reims
Tours
Toulouse
Angers
Rennes
Avignon
Besançon


2
Bordeaux
Marseille
Nantes
Montpelier
Brest
La Rochelle
Calais
Toulon
Nice
Le Havre

3
Québec
Trois-Rivières
Montréal
Bâton-Rouge
Fort Détroit
Fort Toulouse
Fort Niagara
Fort Dauphin
Ste-Marie
Fort-Lamy

4
Saint-Louis-du-Sénégal
Nouvelle Orléans
Cayenne
Saint-Denis
Fort-de-France
Port-au-Prince
Libreville
Philippeville
Abidjan
Nouméa



Notes:
For 1 and 2, with the exception of Le Havre, all of these cities were founded before France was France, so I classified they by order of being part of France rather than by order of foundation, with the exceptions of Lyon and Marseille that should be lower on the lists as they were part of France later than other cities, but are so important they could have been Capital cities.
I also included more African cities in list 3 and 4.
Let the debate go on!

I think Jerusalem should be in the Arab list.:run:

The American St. Louis should be on the French list for sure.

I think Jerusalem should be in the Arab list.:run:

Debatable, but I agree.

As we're talking of a random (i.e. fictional) map, not an historical one, I think we should focus on having the names peculiar to a civilization, rather than trying to re-create the actual geography.
Just remember that the expansion of a civilization shall be on a different land and with different neighbours than the historical situation.
So what's the problem with having Costantinopolis on one side of the map and Istanbul on the other, when none of them is on the focal point of the communications between Europe and Asia?
To me it's only important to have the list of the names belonging to a civilization, in order to keep the flavour of that civilization. Surely we can't have twice the same name; but in my opinion we can have both New York (American!) and Nieuw Amsterdam (Dutch, of course).

I like it (though I still think Mers El Kébir should be on list #4).

You know what else I forgot? Cayenne (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cayenne), the capital of French Guiana (also an integral department of France today).

Similarly, Bangui (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bangui) (list 3), Brazzaville (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazzaville) (list 4), Djibouti (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Djibouti_%28city%29) (list 4), and Conakry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conakry) (list 4).

All of them were founded by the French and/or during the French colonial era in Africa. Those French sure were busy, no?

I think Jerusalem should be in the Arab list.:run:


Ehhh... Really debatable. The sort of debate that ends in flame wars. :(

Perhaps best to give it to the Babylonians or Romans?

To me it's only important to have the list of the names belonging to a civilization, in order to keep the flavour of that civilization. Surely we can't have twice the same name; but in my opinion we can have both New York (American!) and Nieuw Amsterdam (Dutch, of course).

This is a good point. For that matter, I don't see anything wrong with two civs having a city with an identical name. For instance: let Algiers be on both the French #4 list and Arab #2 list. Whichever civs founds it first "wins" the name -- the other civ won't be able to found it, because the game won't allow two cities with identical names to be founded. Indeed, this might be the best solution to Jerusalem, too. It can be on the list for Arabs, Romans, Babylonians, heck, even the British.....

I think Jerusalem should be in the Arab list.:run:

As Jerusalem was under control of many civs that are in the game (Babylon, Egypt, Persia, Greece, Rome, Byzantion, Arabia, Crusaders-Germany or something, Turkey and Britain.) I think it should be independent and change it's name when conquered.

The American St. Louis should be on the French list for sure.

I like it (though I still think Mers El Kébir should be on list #4).

You know what else I forgot? Cayenne (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cayenne), the capital of French Guiana (also an integral department of France today).

Similarly, Bangui (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bangui) (list 3), Brazzaville (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazzaville) (list 4), Djibouti (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Djibouti_%28city%29) (list 4), and Conakry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conakry) (list 4).

All of them were founded by the French and/or during the French colonial era in Africa. Those French sure were busy, no?

So assuming we keep the lists to 10 names? Which ones should be removed?
I think St Louis is ok if there's a consensus with the Americans it should be in the French list. I disagree about Mers El Kébir because although it's been important military, it doesn't "feel" French to me. Djibouti is ok too, although it hasn't been French for long, same for Bangui (the fact it's in list 3 is a plus, though) and Conakry. The question is which cities should be removed, then?

Sorry -- I missed the part where Rhye asked that the lists be limited to 10 cities.

Let me chew on this for a little bit then I'll make my recommendations.

This is a good point. For that matter, I don't see anything wrong with two civs having a city with an identical name. For instance: let Algiers be on both the French #4 list and Arab #2 list. Whichever civs founds it first "wins" the name -- the other civ won't be able to found it, because the game won't allow two cities with identical names to be founded. Indeed, this might be the best solution to Jerusalem, too. It can be on the list for Arabs, Romans, Babylonians, heck, even the British.....

The thing is Rhye has already decided against that:

- I think that we should keep things simple and assign a city only to one civ

Here are my suggestions for France:



1 (Home, inland)
Paris
Orléans
Lyon
Reims
Tours
Toulouse
Angers
Rennes
Avignon
Besançon


2 (Home, coastal)
Bordeaux
Marseille
Nantes
Montpelier
Brest
La Rochelle
Calais
Toulon
Nice
Le Havre

3 (Colonial, inland)
Québec
Trois-Rivières
Montréal
Bâton-Rouge
Bangui
Fort Niagara
Brazzaville
Ste-Marie
Fort-Lamy
Fort Laperine


4 (Colonial, coastal)
Saint-Louis-du-Sénégal
Nouvelle Orléans
Cayenne
Fort-de-France
Port-au-Prince
Libreville
Philippeville
Abidjan
Tourane
Nouméa



I did not change any of the list 1 and 2 names.

Added Brazzaville, Bangui, and Fort Laperine to list 3, mainly because I wanted to give French African cities better representation in the list, and I was worried that the list was a little too heavy with French settlements in America. (I was glad to see that Brazzaville is an inland city....)

My controversial choice is Tourane on list 4 -- although it was founded as Da Nang (and is known as that today,) it was the first location in Indochina to fall under French rule, and was renamed Tourane for the rest of French ascendancy in Indochina. As far as I can tell, there were no French-settled cities in Indochina, and this was the only significant city that adopted a French name. If there were a Vietnamese civ, this would be on the cutting room floor, but since there isn't, I thought it might be included.

Please delete. Duplicate post.

The thing is Rhye has already decided against that:

I saw that, but was just offering my own opinion. (Of course, with the 10 cities per list limit, it shouldn't be too difficult to avoid the problem altogether.)

Also, the 10 cities is not a limit, I read that as a minimum.
For example his Spanish lists are 16, 12, 14, and 15 cities long.

I think his points are being taken too literally.
10 is enough, does not mean maximum 10. I would say this is especially true for civs with small/no list 3 or 4.
He said to consider founding date, to me this implies it is a criteria, but not the only thing that matters.

In regards to Umarth's Roman list:

Here's a Roman one (Italians, feel free to rip me to pieces :P)

I've only included cities founded or refounded by the Romans, and have used Italian cities for lists 1 and 2 and others for 3 and 4. The former means a lot of notable cities aren't included, though.

1- for non-coastal cities in the continent
Roma
Antium (?)
Beneventum (286 BCE)
Modena (183 BCE)
Parma (183 BCE)
Pompeii (80 BCE)
Faesulae (~80 BCE)
Capua (I think Caesar founded a veterans' colony here?)
Augusta Taurinorum (28 BCE)
Augusta Praetoria Salassorum (24 BCE)

2- for coastal cities in the continent
Ostia Antica (7th century BCE)
Terracina (329 BCE)
Tarentum (122 BCE)

3- for non-coastal cities in another continent
Italica (206 BCE)
Metellinum (80 BCE)
Corinthiensis (44 BCE)
Lugdunum (43 BCE)
Emerita Augusta (25 BCE)
Bracara Augusta (20 BCE)
Augusta Treverorum (16 BCE)
Augusta Rauracorum (15 BCE)
Augusta Vindelicorum (15 BCE)
Augusta Suessionum (Augustus)
Londinium (50 CE)
Camulodunom (43 CE)
Eboracum (71 CE)

4- for coastal cities in another continent
Dyrrachium (229 BCE)
Colonia Iunonia/Carthago (122 BCE)
Narbo Martius (118 BCE)
Tarraco (?)
Hippo Regius (?)
Thapsus (46 BCE)
Patras (Augustus)
Nova Roma/Constantinopolis (330 CE)

Pisae was a coastal town in Roman times. It's 20 miles away from the sea now, but it was a major naval port in Roman times. It should be in List 2.

In regards to Umarth's Roman list:
Pisae was a coastal town in Roman times. It's 20 miles away from the sea now, but it was a major naval port in Roman times. It should be in List 2.
But I'm not sure Rhye would like this new entry.... :lol:
In list 2 should be moved as well Antium, Capua and Pompeii (by the way, none of them was founded by the Romans).
I'm currently working on a revision of Umarth's list, of course with the main addition of Mediolanum. ;)

Please remember that the Romans spawned in a country that already was civilized: they actually founded few cities (mostly in strategic positions facing the Celts and neighbours) and annexed or conquered the rest of their empire. But it's quite hard to establish the dates for annexation, as many cities started as allies and remained formally independent for quite a long time.

That said, here's my revision of Umarth's list of Italian (pardon, Roman!...) cities:

1) Non-coastal cities:

ROMA founded 753 b.C.
Arretium (Arezzo) founded IX century b.C., conquered 295 b.C.
Tarquinii (Tarquinia) conquered 281 b.C.
Beneventum (Benevento) founded VII century b.C., conquered 268 b.C.
Mediolanum (Milano) founded 600 b.C., conquered 222 b.C.
Faesulae (Fiesole) annexed III century b.C.
Felsina – Bononia (Bologna) founded 534 b.C., conquered 189 b.C.
Brixia (Brescia) founded VI century b.C., annexed 189 b.C.
Parma founded VI century b.C., annexed 183 b.C.
Perusia (Perugia) founded VI century b.C., annexed 89 b.C.
Verona annexed 89 b.C.
Placentia (Piacenza) founded 218 b.C.
Ticinum (Pavia) founded 189 b.C.
Forum Livii (Forlì) founded 188 b.C.
Aquileia founded 181 b.C.
Florentia (Firenze) founded 59 b.C.
Augusta Taurinorum (Torino) founded 29 b.C.
Augusta Praetoria Salassorum (Aosta) founded 25 b.C.


2) Coastal cities:

Ostia founded 633 b.C.
Antium (Anzio) annexed V century b.C.?
Capua founded 800 b.C., annexed 343 b.C.
Rhegium (Reggio Calabria) founded VIII century b.C., annexed 341 b.C.
Neapolis (Napoli) founded V century b.C., conquered 326 b.C.
Tarentum (Taranto) founded 706 b.C., conquered 272 b.C.
Brundisium (Brindisi) founded ?, conquered 267 b.C.
Genua (Genova) founded XX century b.C., refounded 203 b.C.
Pisae (Pisa) founded VI century b.C., annexed 180 b.C.
Ancona founded 387 b.C., annexed 113 b.C.

A good list, but I don't think Yalta should be on the list in such a prominent position, because it has never been Russian until after the Russian-Ottoman wars of late 18th century. If anything, it should be part of the colonial Byzantine city list (if Byzantines make it as a major civ in RFC RAND!). After that it's main importance was as a summer resort, so it would be strange to see it in Civ as as a powerhouse city (coming so high up in the list)

Regarding Kiev, I still think it should be included in the Russian city list, probably after Moscow. Since the 17th century it has been a very important part of any Russian "empire", and originally much of Russia's culture stemmed from Kiev. It's role is hard to underestimate.

The Byzatines aren't going to be in RAND because Rhye said that one city should only be assigned to one Civ and the Byzatines share a capital with the Turks, and since the Byzantines aren't included in the original game...

First, I have to say some of the dates these cities founded are confirmed by their local government and history experts though they might be amazing.
Welcome to correct and discuss my list
1.for non-coastal cities in the continent
Hard to choose 10, so I get more
Beijing (Peking) founded in 1045 BC
(just a acient city in its modern area, being capital of one states in 600sBC, being capital of Jin Dinasty in 1153, rebulit by Mongols in 1258, rebulit and renamed Beijing in 1403)
Xi'an (Chang'an) founded in 1000s BC
(rebulit many times, flourish in 600ADs being capital of China for 1191 years)
Luoyang 770BC
Kaifeng 700sBC (flourish in 1000ADs, before invade of Mongols)
Suzhou 541BC
Yangzhou 486BC (flourish in 1000ADs, before invade of Mongols)
Nanjing 472BC
Chengdu 311BC (a city never completely destroyed, have a mass earthquake recently)
Shenyang BC301~296
LanzhouBC 241
Chongqing(BC 1100s but named Chongqing in 1189)
Wuhan(BC 1500s but disappear in BC 1100s, 3 cities together renamed Wuhan in 1927)
Lasa(Lhasa) 633 AD (Not ours that time, but Tibet belong to China since the domination of Mogols 700years ago)
Wulumuqi(Urumqi) 1755 AD (So we call there "new horizon")
II- Coastal Cities on the Home Continent
we don't forcus on navagation and navy...and many ancient coastal cities fall...
Hangzhou(Lin'an) 221BC
Guangzhou(Canton) 214BC
Ningbo 821AD
Xianmen(Amoy) 1387AD
Tianjin(Tientsin) 1404AD
Shanghai 1553AD Sorry to forget it...
Qingdao(Tsintao) 1891AD (Former German Colony)
Macau (Aomen 澳门) Maybe 1557AD (Who knows what Portuguese did there?)
Hangkong 1841AD (actually Xianggang香港... means fragrant harbor Former English Colony)
Dalian 1899AD (Former Russian Colony)
Shenzhen 1980AD (the fastest growing cities, use 20 years from a small villige to a city with 11 million population)
3- for non-coastal cities in another continent
I'm sorry that we don't have, but maybe there's many Chinese in some cities nowadays...
4- for coastal cities in another continent
I think islands near continent should count, isn't it? So...
Haikou several hundreds years ago... can't find.
Sanya
Taipei(Maybe Taibei is better) 1875AD (Taiwan was invaded by Niederlander, Spainish and Japanese, but it's part of China undoubtly, no matter it's PRC or ROC)
Kaohsiung(Gaoxiong)

What about Shanghai?

Here are my suggestions for France:



1 (Home, inland)
Paris
Orléans
Lyon
Reims
Tours
Toulouse
Angers
Rennes
Avignon
Besançon


2 (Home, coastal)
Bordeaux
Marseille
Nantes
Montpelier
Brest
La Rochelle
Calais
Toulon
Nice
Le Havre

3 (Colonial, inland)
Québec
Trois-Rivières
Montréal
Bâton-Rouge
Bangui
Fort Niagara
Brazzaville
Ste-Marie
Fort-Lamy
Fort Laperine


4 (Colonial, coastal)
Saint-Louis-du-Sénégal
Nouvelle Orléans
Cayenne
Fort-de-France
Port-au-Prince
Libreville
Philippeville
Abidjan
Tourane
Nouméa



I did not change any of the list 1 and 2 names.

Added Brazzaville, Bangui, and Fort Laperine to list 3, mainly because I wanted to give French African cities better representation in the list, and I was worried that the list was a little too heavy with French settlements in America. (I was glad to see that Brazzaville is an inland city....)

My controversial choice is Tourane on list 4 -- although it was founded as Da Nang (and is known as that today,) it was the first location in Indochina to fall under French rule, and was renamed Tourane for the rest of French ascendancy in Indochina. As far as I can tell, there were no French-settled cities in Indochina, and this was the only significant city that adopted a French name. If there were a Vietnamese civ, this would be on the cutting room floor, but since there isn't, I thought it might be included.


Ok with your lists, with 2 exceptions:
Fort Laperine (I've never heard of it, and there's no French entry in Wikipedia under that name)
Tourane. Like you said France didn't found any city in Indochina, and haven't done much there. Actually, I was in Laos and Cambodia last summer, and although it's been ruled by France for a century, you hardly ever notice it. So I'd rather not have any city from that region.
Also I forgot about Papeete (Tahiti) that could be a nice addition to list 4.

The Byzatines aren't going to be in RAND because Rhye said that one city should only be assigned to one Civ and the Byzatines share a capital with the Turks, and since the Byzantines aren't included in the original game...


That's true. Byzantines also overlap too much with Rome and Greece.

York
Bristol
Nottingham
Ipswich
Norwich
Birmingham
Cambridge
Canterbury
Newcastle
Blackburn
Manchester
Glasgow
Middlesbrough

London
Hastings
Edinburgh
Cardiff
Brighton
Portsmouth
Hull
Blackpool
Aberdeen
Belfast
Plymouth
Liverpool

Should the English place names include Scottish (Edingburgh, Glasgow, Aberdeen), Welsh (Cardiff) and Irish (Belfast) cities? (Belfast could possibly be considered a colonial coastal city)

Whilst a major port, London isn't a coastal city - though the Thames does give it navigable access to the North Sea

Not sure Blackburn would be considered a major city. Derby, Leicester, Coventry and Wolverhampton would be better choices for inland cities. Warwick, Worcester, Stratford and Stoke are other options.

Southampton is a major port that your missing, Grimsby is another alternative. Sunderland would be another good option for a coastal location

^ Good point about London, especially since Bristol is on the other list.

Here's categories 1+2 of the Turkish list!:D

Category One

1.Ankara/Angora(1200 B.C.)(Current Capital)
2.Erzurum(Ancient times)
3.Denizli(Prehistoric Times by Greeks)(Debatable)
4.Konya(3000-1500 B.C.)
5.Ayintap(1500-1000 B.C.)
6.Malatya(1400 B.C.)
7.Diyâr-i Bekr(1200 B.C.)
8.Eskişehir(1000 B.C.)
9.Edirne(? by Greeks)(Debatable)
10.Bursa(202 B.C. by Greeks)(Debatable)


Category Two

1.Istanbul(Capital)(founded 330 A.D. by Romans and 667 B.C. by Greeks)(Debatable)
2.Mersin(8000 B.C./1200 B.C.)
3.Karadeniz Ereğli(Ancient times by Greeks)(Debatable)
4.Izmir(1500 B.C.)
5.Trabzon(756 B.C. by Greeks)(Debatable)
6.Alanya(625 B.C.)
7.Samsun(500 B.C. by Greeks)(Debatable)
8.Iskenderon(333 B.C.)
9.Antalya(150 B.C. by Greeks)(Debatable)
10.Bandırma(Recently)

Constructive Criticism is welcome. I can add plenty more to this list but first we need to decide what cities to give to the Greeks. Please help me decide so I can do a Greek list. Thanks.

P.S. categories 3+4 coming soon.

^ I agree with Istanbul, Trabzon and Samsun being on Turkey's lists. I lack knowledge for the other debatable ones.

I think that in some cases the capital should always be named the same. While we have a pretty good both coastal and landlocked capitals for some civs (Moskva - St.Petersburg, Ankara-Istanbul) we lack then for most of the civs, like England or France.

Ok with your lists, with 2 exceptions:
Fort Laperine (I've never heard of it, and there's no French entry in Wikipedia under that name)


Sorry -- typo. Should be Fort Laperrine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Laperrine). Alias "Tamanrasset", in southern Algeria.



Tourane. Like you said France didn't found any city in Indochina, and haven't done much there. Actually, I was in Laos and Cambodia last summer, and although it's been ruled by France for a century, you hardly ever notice it. So I'd rather not have any city from that region.
Also I forgot about Papeete (Tahiti) that could be a nice addition to list 4.

Fair enough about Tourane.

Since the lists apparently don't have to be limited to 10, do you want to restore some of the ones from your original list that I removed? Along with adding Djibouti, Conakry, Bône (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bone%2C_Algeria)and Mers-el-Kébir to list 4. :)

Oh, and stylistic question: is it standard in French to have fort names hypenated? (E.g,. Fort-Lamy, Fort-Niagara?)

^ As far as Fort Laperrine is concerned, I still have never heard about it. Do you know anything about how important it was in French history?

fort names (as often in French) are sometimes hyphenated sometimes not (like Fort Détroit), so I'm afraid it's highly irregular.

Now as for having lists over 10 names, I see a major inconvenience: if we follow the chronological order as Rhye suggested, it means some historically very important cities will go way too down the list, and we might never see them in the actual game. Actually, I think it's very unlikely one found more than 10 colonies in RFC random, unless you're AnotherPacifist. ;)
So I think we should concentrate one the 10 most important ones, especially in lists 3 and 4. But that's just my opinion.

Laperrine's importance was that it protected the main Trans-Saharan trade route. I don't believe that it was the center of a conflict, but it was created by the French. It would definitely go at the bottom of the list, as it was apparently constructed in 1927 (http://www.the153club.org/forts.html).

I don't see any harm in going beyond 10. If there's a problem with a 'less-significant' city ending up at the top of a list, I say we just re-arrange the list a little to reflect order of importance....

Here's the Indian 3+4.;)

Category Three

1.Badulla(Ancient Times)
2.Galle(1400 B.C.)
3.Anuradhapura(400 B.C.)
4.Kurunegala(1200's)
5.Kandy(1300's)
6.Ratnapura(?)


Category Four

........,
1.Male(ancient times)
2.Sri Jayawardenapura-Kotte(ancient times)
3.lle(1400 B.C.)
4.Kolon thota (0 A.D.)
5.Trincomalee(400 B.C.)
6.Jaffna(?)

Constructive criticism is welcome.

I think the most important is to find cities that are big today and lots of people has heard of. So you get the dejavu of building a city you have heard of before. That's more important than finding old cities no one has heard of.

Thanks for the Russia comments everyone! Lots of neat thoughts and ideas :)

Responses:

Re: Kiev: You're all right, it should be in the game. I would have supported with its placement in the Viking list, but if it's out of there, then it's out. After reading peoples' posts on why it should be Russian, I guess if I can rationalize Samarqand/Tashkent/etc. as being on the Mongol list, then there's absolutely no reason Kiev should be not be on Russia's list. Your various reasons for why Kiev should be on Russia's list are much better than my reasons for why the Central Asian cities should be on Mongolia's :) . However, if Kiev's in, Minsk should be too, so I'll add that one also. However, I draw the line in the sand at the Baltic States capitals. Those should absolutely not be Russian.

Re: Yalta: After reading the Byzantine vs. Not and Late-Incorporation discussions, I went ahead and removed it. I now agree with the argument that it's too small and hasn't been that big of a deal in world history (other than a few days in 1945), so I think we can probably just ignore it entirely. List II is kinda small, but 8 is a good number as is.

Re: Okhotsk: Sounds good to me! :)

Re: Antarctic Stations: As you can see, there are no less than seven (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_research_stations_in_Antarctica). However, the earliest was founded in 1956, after the founding of even Magadan, the last city on List IV, which itself passes the 10 City Mark. Also, they are all really really tiny. The suggestion is a creative one, but I don't think we need to include these stations.

Other changes: Removed many notations. Changed 10 City "Limit" to "Mark," pursuant to the emergent debate on that topic.

Note: Where cities have no "archaeologically-verifiable" (quotes intended, because it's all fuzzy) date of foundation, I went with what seemed like a good idea to me and me alone, based on stuff found in Wikipedia. Examples include Minsk, Kiev, and many others that I didn't point out (bad me) the first time around.

The actual lists are inside the "Spoiler." Comments/Suggestions/Criticisms?


List I – Non-Coastal Home Continent
1. Moskva –1147 (Landlocked Capital)
2. Kiev - Really Damn Old
3. Rostov – 862 or so
4. Smolensk – 863 or so
5. Pskov – 903 or so
6. Novgorod – 950s or so
7. Jaroslavl – 1010 or so
8. Suzdal - 1024
9. Kursk – 1032 or so
10. Minsk - 1067
--Past the 10 City Mark--
11. Vladimir – 1108 or so
12. Tver - 1164
13. Nizhnij Novgorod – 1221
14. Tula – 1300s
15. Voronezh – 1585
16. Samara - 1586
17. Volgograd - 1589
18. Perm - 1647
19. Izhevsk – 1760

List II – Coastal Home Continent
1. Sankt Peterburg (Coastal Capital) – 1703
2. Arkhangelsk – 1584
3. Sevastopol – 1783
4. Rostov-na-Donu – 1794
5. Odessa – 1794
6. Novorossijsk (Black Sea) – 1838
7. Sochi – 1864
8. Murmansk - 1916

List III – Non-Coastal Other Continent
1. Tobolsk – 1585
2. Tjumen – 1586
3. Tomsk – 1604
4. Krasnojarsk – 1628
5. Jakutsk – 1632
6. Irkutsk – 1652
7. Krasnojarsk – 1628
8. Omsk – 1716
9. Ekaterinburg – 1723
10. Barnaul – 1730
--Past the 10 City Mark--
11. Cheljabinsk -1763
12. Khabarovsk – 1858
13. Novosibirsk – 1893
14. Kemerovo – 1918

List IV – Coastal Other Continent
1. Okhotsk - 1643
2. Petropavlovsk–Kamchatskij – 1740
3. Pavlovskaja Gavan' - 1792
4. Voskresenskaja (Seward, under the USA) – 1793
5. Konstantinovsky – 1793
6. Slavorossija – 1796
7. Port Chichagov – around 1800 (?)
8. Novo-Arkhangelsk – 1804
9. Krepost' Ross (intentionally deviated from RFC spelling, since both Rhye and Lone Wolf are right: Krepost’ means Fort, and Ross is short for Rossiya. It should be renamed appropriately on capture by anyone.) – 1812
10. Vladivostok – 1860
--Past the 10 City Mark--
11. Magadan – 1930s

I'd galdly done Russia, but the question is, Russia didn't have many offshore settlements, so categories 3 and 4 are problematic. Same with most un-western-european nations like India or China. First 1 and 2 are easy:

1.

[...]

hmm, no Tver ?

2) Coastal cities:

Ostia founded 633 b.C.
Antium (Anzio) annexed V century b.C.?
Capua founded 800 b.C., annexed 343 b.C.
Rhegium (Reggio Calabria) founded VIII century b.C., annexed 341 b.C.
Neapolis (Napoli) founded V century b.C., conquered 326 b.C.
Tarentum (Taranto) founded 706 b.C., conquered 272 b.C.
Brundisium (Brindisi) founded ?, conquered 267 b.C.
Genua (Genova) founded XX century b.C., refounded 203 b.C.
Pisae (Pisa) founded VI century b.C., annexed 180 b.C.
Ancona founded 387 b.C., annexed 113 b.C.

Pinco Pallino, sicilian and sardinian cities are notably missing. In particular Syracusae.

Portugal

Category 4

1.Ponta Delgada
2.Funchal
3.Bissau
4.Luanda
5.Lourenço Marques (Maputo in Moçambique)
6.Porto Seguro
7.Rio de Janeiro
8.Díli (in Timor-Leste)
9.Goa (pangim/panaji/panjim in India)
10.Damão (Daman in India)

Also on Edungeon list castelo branco should be replaced by Guimarães, also guimarães should be the first city in the inland list

Aren't Macau and Dili already on the Chinese and Indian lists?(I'm assuming Dili as in Delhi)

Here's the Entire Greek List.:)

Category One

1.Sparta(1100 B.C.)
Larisa(400 B.C.)
Trikka(?)

Category Two

1.Athina(1000 B.C.)(Capital)
Patras(3000 B.C.)
Thessaloniki(315 B.C.)
Arta(295 B.C.)

Sorry, Gotta go, just ignore this list becuas I'll finish it later, sorry!

Athens is landlocked, or at least it was when Greek culture was at it's high.

It used the port city Pireaus (not sure of it's greek version) for shipping.

no its Díli the capital of Timor and about Macau i will replace it, also Macau was found in 1553 and was portuguese until late 1999

There's also a Macau in the north of Brazil. It's a pretty small place:

http://www.geonames.org/3395998/macau.html

If Wikipedia is to be believed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Macau#The_Hong_Kong_effect), Macau may have been a harbor used by locals, but its heyday occurred under Portuguese rule, and it's hard to argue with 400 years of ownership.

I'm not sure about Goa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_goa)and Damão, though -- it sounds as though Goa may have been a significant city in India prior to Portuguese rule (as opposed to a location like Macau or Hong Kong, which became significant largely because of foreign rule). Damão and Diu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daman_and_Diu) sound like they never really were important, so I could go either way on that one.

Agree with Dili, as it appears to have been founded under Portuguese rule (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Timor).

I think Goa is on the Indian list as well.

3 non-coastal cities in another continent:
Juneau (alaska) 1881
I have nothing... I can easily expand the initial continental cities by another 5-10 if people would like.



Juneau is most definitely a coastal city. In fact, it's impossible to reach the place by land.

That said, Alaska should be a rich vein of category 3 American cities.



4 coastal cities in another continent:
These are drawn for current and past American territories, as well as Hawaii and Alaska:
San Juan (Puerto Rico): ca 1501
Havana (Cuba) ca 1515
Manila (Philippines) ca 1574***
Charlotte Amalie (U.S. Virgin Islands): ca 1657**** (Saint Thomas is the name of the island, and perhaps a better name)
Guam ca 1668***
American Samoa: ca 1830s
Honolulu: ca 1898 (Hawaii was annexed as a territory in 1898, although was arguably influenced/claimed by America earlier).
Anchorage: ca 1914
Obviously, the Hawai'ian cities should fill a lot of coastal cities. To be a purist, a lot of those cities should probably be excluded as they predated American rule, but since Hawai'i is a state, and since cities such as Honolulu have traditionally appeared on the American civ lists, I don't see any reason to change that.

I'm skeptical on including Manila -- its founding predated Spanish rule on the Islands, let alone American. If any Philippine cities make the cut, they should arguably be limited to exclusively American military enclaves (such as Subic Bay or Fort Stotsenberg (later known as Clark Air Force Base)) or those places that had a large percentage of American nationals during the colonial era (such as Angeles City (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angeles_City)).

I strongly disagree with including Cuban cities in the American list -- it experienced direct American rule for, at most, four years. The only true American enclave on the island that I'd say might qualify for inclusion would be Guantanamo Bay, which has been under U.S. control for over 100 years. (And, for the love of god, please let's not start a discussion about the merits of Guantanamo Bay....)

I agree with the use of some Caribbean Islands and Hagåtña (the capital of Guam). I'd also think that use of San Juan is also appropriate, for the same reasons as use of Hawai'ian cities.


EDIT: several category 3 and 4 American cities can also be obtained from the Panama Canal Zone. There were many towns established and settled by Americans in the Zone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panama_Canal_Zone


A partial list of Canal Zone townships and military installations:

Pacific Side
Townships
Ancón (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anc%C3%B3n%2C_Panama) - built on the lower slopes of Ancon Hill (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancon_Hill), adjacent to Panama City (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panama_City). Also home to Gorgas Hospital (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorgas_Hospital).
Balboa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balboa%2C_Panama) - Administrative capital, as well as location of the harbor and main Pacific Side high school
Balboa Heights (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balboa_Heights)
Cardenas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardenas%2C_Panama) - as the Canal Zone was gradually handed over to Panamanian control, Cardenas was one of the last Zonian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zonian) holdouts.
Corozal
Diablo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diablo%2C_Panama)
Diablo Heights (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Diablo_Heights&action=edit&redlink=1)
Gamboa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamboa%2C_Panama) - headquarters of dredging division, located on Gatun Lake (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gatun_Lake). Many new arrivals to the Canal Zone were assigned here.
La Boca (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=La_Boca%2C_Panama&action=edit&redlink=1): home of the Panama Canal College (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Panama_Canal_College&action=edit&redlink=1)
Los Ríos (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Los_Rios%2C_Panama&action=edit&redlink=1)
Paraíso (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Para%C3%ADso%2C_Panama)
Pedro Miguel (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Pedro_Miguel%2C_Panama&action=edit&redlink=1)
Red Tank (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Tank%2C_Panama): was abandoned and allowed to be overgrown sometime around 1950.
Curundu (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Curundu&action=edit&redlink=1): on military base, but housed civilian military workers
Curundu Heights (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Curundu_Heights&action=edit&redlink=1)
Cocoli
Rosseau (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosseau): built as a naval hospital during WWII, housed FAA personnel until Cardenas was built. Torn down after about 20 years
Military Installations
Fort Amador (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Amador) - on the coast, partly built on land extended into the sea using excavation materials from the canal construction
Fort Clayton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Clayton)
Corozal Army Post (close to, but separate from the civilian township)
Fort Kobbe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Kobbe)
Rodman Marine Barracks (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Rodman_Marine_Barracks&action=edit&redlink=1)
Albrook Air Force Base (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albrook_Air_Force_Base)
Howard Air Force Base (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Air_Force_Base)
Quarry Heights (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Quarry_Heights&action=edit&redlink=1): Headquarters, United States Southern Command (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Southern_Command)
Atlantic Side
Townships
Brazos Heights (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Brazos_Heights&action=edit&redlink=1): privately owned housing (by United Brands and other, mostly shipping companies) where employees/owners of shipping agencies, lawyers and the head of the YMCA lived
Coco Solo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coco_Solo): main hospital and only Atlantic Side high school (called Cristobal High School)
Cristóbal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crist%C3%B3bal%2C_Panama): main harbor and port
Gatún (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gat%C3%BAn)
Margarita (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Margarita%2C_Panama&action=edit&redlink=1)
Mount Hope (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Hope): site of the only Atlantic side cemetery and the only drydock
Rainbow City (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow_City%2C_Panama)
Military Installations
Fort Gulick (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Gulick): home to School of the Americas
Galeta Island (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galeta_Island)
Fort Randolph (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Randolph): abandoned military base
Fort Davis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Davis)
Fort Sherman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Sherman): home to Jungle Operations Training Center

hmm, no Tver ?

I was wondering the same. Also, no Suzdal?

If Wikipedia is to be believed, Macau may have been a harbor used by locals, but its heyday occurred under Portuguese rule, and it's hard to argue with 400 years of ownership.

I'm currently reading a book about visiting Asia, and this is mentioned about Macau in the Chinese article. So I can vouch for the authenticity of Wiki on this one. It should be Portuguese.

Here's another list - Ethiopia. No-one's attempted this, so I will:

Category 1:

Aksum - capital of the ancient country of Aksum (coincidentally).
Yeha - may have been the capital of the D'mt kingdom (8th century BC).
Hawulti - evidently an important city of the Aksumite kingdom.
Qohaito - may have been Aksum's summer capital.
Matara - major Aksumite city.
Lalibela - either originally Roha or Adefa. Renamed after King Lalibela, who was born there. Second-holiest city in the country to Ethiopians after Aksum.
Asmera - founded in the 12th century during Solomonic dynasty.
Debre Berhan - founded by Zara Yakob as his capital (1456).
Gonder - capital from 1635 until 1855.
--------that was 10----------
Adowa - gained importance in the 17th century as a trade route between Gonder and the coast.
Makale - founded 13th century, not important until the 19th.
Addis Ababa - founded 1886 by Menelik II.
Dessye - founded 1882.
Diredawa - founded 1902.

Category 2:

Adulis - main port of Aksum. Now capital of Eritrea.
Avalitis - modern Assab.
Massaua - also spelled Massawa. Overshadowed by Adulis most of its history.

Category 3:

Saphar - Zafar, Yemen. Part of the Aksumite Kingdom at its height.
Harerge - also Harar. Capital of the Islamic kingdom of Adal.
Bonga - capital of the kingdom of Kaffa, 14th to 19th centuries.

Category 4:

Muza - site in modern Saudi Arabia. Part of ancient Aksum.
Zeila - capital of the sultanate of Ifat.
Suakin - in Sudan.

Suggest that Adowa (Adwa?) be moved up on the list in light of its importance relating to the Battle of Adwa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Adwa) in 1896.

Whilst a major port, London isn't a coastal city - though the Thames does give it navigable access to the North Sea

Remember that in civ, a tile is a very large area so a coastal city doesn't necessarily have to be right by the sea. I think the fact that, as you point out, London was, until several decades ago, a thriving international port for seafaring vessels, should qualify it as a coastal city in civ terms. However the same goes for Bristol, as others have pointed out.

Not sure Blackburn would be considered a major city. Derby, Leicester, Coventry and Wolverhampton would be better choices for inland cities. Warwick, Worcester, Stratford and Stoke are other options.

Southampton is a major port that your missing, Grimsby is another alternative. Sunderland would be another good option for a coastal location

I agree with all the above. Blackburn seems a very odd choice. All I know about it is that has a football team.

@Onedreamer and Virdrago: Tver and Suzdal are good additions. Thanks :) Rather than reposting the whole dang thing, I went back and edited my last List post (post #165, page 9, this thread).

Just so you know, due to likely dates of foundation, Suzdal is #8 and Tver #12 on List 1.

I see your point jkp1187, but i put Goa because it was the administrative center of portuguese colonial empire in asia from 1510 to 1961.

Metal Alloy Man, i think that Goa(panaji) is not in the Indian list, maybe you are making confusion with another city from the region of Goa

Dutch

4)Costal colonies (New = Nieuw)

Walvisbaai (= whale Bay)




I agree with most of the South African cities, but Walvis Bay appears to have been settled primarily by the British -- at least, in terms of doing anything meaningful with the harbor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walvis_Bay
http://www.ports.co.za/walvis-bay.php

pav123, do you have any idea for Inland cities in Portuguese Colonies? I can only think of 2 or 3 important cities =\ Portugal just did coastal bases in all her footholds, and there are only 2 or 3 cities in Inland Brazil to gather gold. Any idea?

pav123, do you have any idea for Inland cities in Portuguese Colonies? I can only think of 2 or 3 important cities =\ Portugal just did coastal bases in all her footholds, and there are only 2 or 3 cities in Inland Brazil to gather gold. Any idea?

I think a lot of Angolan or Mozambican cities will qualify as "Portuguese" enough for our purposes. The Portuguese held sway over those territories for hundreds of years, after all -- far longer than Portuguese rule lasted in Brazil. Here are some examples (defaulting to the original Portuguese names in cases where the subsequent Angolan government changed the names:)

Nova Lisboa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huambo) (present-day Humabo)
Cuito Cuanavale (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuito_Cuanavale) (which, according to the Wikipedia was involved in the rather awesomely-titled "Operation Alpha Centauri" during the Angolan Civil War)
Sá da Bandeira (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lubango)
São Salvador (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%27banza-Kongo)
Vila Luso (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luena%2C_Angola)

This is the map of Angola I referred to: http://www.iss.co.za/af/profiles/Angola/angola_rel90.jpg

Malvérnia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicualacuala)
Vila Pery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimoio)
Vila Junqueiro (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gur%C3%BA%C3%A8)
Vila Cabral (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lichinga)

Map of Mozambique
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/6e/MozambiqueOMC.png

EDIT: all of these cities are category 3 "colonial, inland" cities.

You could always include Brasillia if you had to even though it wasn't founded by Portugal it was founded by one of it's colonies.

I haven't been following this thread....
is there any civ left?

I don't think anyone has done Inca or Aztec city list.

Nobodies done Maya yet and there are several list that are only partially complete.

I do kinda have a lot of city lists (have them saved from CTP since I didn't like certain civs and decided to add real historical civs - I know, I had no life then), including ones for every civ in RFC. I just didn't want to take over with my lists, so I left it to others (from the thread, you can see I have done a few lists already). I tried to help out with the lists of the more obscure nations (Mongolia, Khmer, Ethiopia). I can give Aztec, Maya and Inca ones, if you want. I think there already is a half-done Inca one.

Just perused the thread:

These lists have been done (doesn't mean they're finalized, of course), or partially done:

America
Incas*
Spain
Russia
France
Dutch
Vikings
Germany
Rome
Arabia
Persia*
Mongolia
Japan
Khmer
Babylon
India
China
Turkey
Mali
Ethiopia
Portugal
England
Egypt (below)

*Incas, Persia seems partially completed. Greece has been started.

Still not attempted:

Aztecs
Greece (for the most part)
Carthage
Maya

I may not have the same names as Rhye has (I know Niwt-Rst is the Egyptian name for Thebes), but I'll try my best for Egypt:

Note: Edited as per Blizzrd's input below.

Category 1:

Niwt-Rst - Thebes
Ineb Hedj - Memphis
Per-Atum - from what I gather Heliopolis. If not, Heliopolis would be called Iunu
Henen-Nesut - Heracleopolis
Yebu - Elephantine
Abdju - Abydos
Abusir - Busiris
Hut-Repyt - Athribis
Djanet - Tanis
Khmun - Hermopolis
----------------this is 10 cities -------------------
Zawty - Asyut
Nekhen - Heirakonpolis
Tjeny - Thinis
Shedyet - Crocodilopolis
Gebtu - Coptos
Akhetaton
Pi-Ramesses


Category 2:

Per-Atum - Pithom
Djedet - Mendes
Per-Wadjet - Buto
Per-Bast - Bubastis
Tjebnutjer - Sebennytos
Hatwaret - Avaris

Category 3:

Qadesh
Dapur - supposedly in Syria

Category 4:

Gaza
Zemar - in Lebanon

I may not have the same names as Rhye has (I know Niwt-Rst is the Egyptian name for Thebes), but I'll try my best for Egypt:

Category 1:

Niwt-Rst - Thebes
Ineb Hedj - Memphis
Per-Atum - from what I gather Heliopolis. If not, Heliopolis would be called Iunu
Henen-Nesut - Heracleopolis
Yebu - Elephantine
Abdju - Abydos
Abusir - Busiris
Athribis
Pi - Ramesses - could be Tanis.
Khmun - Hermopolis

Athribis was referred to as Hut-Repyt in ancient Egyptian.
Tanis was referred to as Djanet in ancient Egyptian.

Carthage:

Category 1:

Utica
Sicca (El Kef)
Sarim Batim (Constantine, Algeria)
Sitifis (Setif)
Zama

Category 2:

Qart Hadast (Carthage)
Adrametum
Hippo (Annaba)
Kerkouane
Leptis
Oea (Tripoli)
Thapsus
Tingi (Tangier)
Ikosim (Algiers)
Rusadir (Mellila)
10 Cities
Tacape
Sabratha
Iol (Chercell)
Tipasa
Lixus
Thanae

Category 3:

Carmo (Carmona)
Helmantica (Salamanca)
Elibyrge (Grenada)

Category 4:

Qart-Hadast (Nova Carthago)
Malaka (Malaga)
Sexi (Almuñécar)
Ziz (Palermo)
Gades (Cádiz)
Abdera
Karalis (Cagliari)
Olbia
Melita (Malta)
Motya
Lilybaeum

Some city names cross other lists.

Edungeon desculpa não ter respondido mais cedo, mas tenho estado ocupado.
Quanto ás cidades não me lembro de nenhuma mas talvez se juntarmos as cidades que conheces do Brasil com algumas que o jkp1187 propôs dê para fazer a lista. No entretanto vou procurar nos meus antigos livros de história do liceu.

Should i let the portuguese colonies in India in the list?

@Pav123:Add Goa and Damao to the Portugese list as India already has enough cities.

I know Rhye has already done the English cities, but I thought I'd offer what I think is an improved version. For the home cities, I concentrated on including all British cities of the greatest historical political and economic importance. For the colonial I wanted to include a more representative sample of economically and politically significant British-founded cities from different regions and time periods.

HOME INLAND CITIES
Bath, c. 43, Roman
York, 71, Roman
Manchester, 79, Roman
Newcastle, 120, Roman
Nottingham, c. 550
Edinburgh, c. 600 *
Birmingham, c. 600
Norwich, c. 650
Lincoln, c. 650
(Oxford, c. 750)
Coventry, 1043

HOME PORTS (includes cities on rivers close enough to the sea to allow them to become major ports)
London, 43, Roman
(Gloucester, 48, Roman)
(Exeter, 50, Roman)
Southampton, c 50, Roman
Cardiff, 55, Roman *
Glasgow, c. 550 *
(Ipswich, c. 600)
Aberdeen, c. 750 *
Bristol, 1000
Hull, c. 1150
(Portsmouth, 1180)
Liverpool, 1207
Plymouth, 1235
Belfast, 1609 *

COLONIAL INLAND CITIES
Philadelphia, 1682, USA **
Toronto, 1787, Canada
Edmonton, c. 1790, Canada
Ottawa, 1800, Canada
Winnipeg, 1809, Canada
(Ladysmith, 1850, South Africa ***)
Alice Springs, c. 1870, Australia
Kimberley, 1871, South Africa
Salisbury (now Harare), 1890, capital of Zimbabwe
Blantyre, 1891, Malawi
Livingstone, c. 1895, Zambia

COLONIAL PORTS
Boston, 1630, USA **
Providence, 1636, USA **
(Bridgetown, 1654, Barbados)
Kingston, 1692, Jamaica
Baltimore, 1729, USA **
Georgetown, 1781, Guyana
(Freetown, 1787, Sierra Leone)
Sydney, 1788, Australia
(Port Elizabeth, 1820, South Africa)
Brisbane, 1824, Australia
Auckland, 1840, New Zealand
Vancouver, 1863, Canada
(Port Moresby, 1873, Papua New Guinea)

SUGGESTED COLONIAL CITIES BY COUNTRY
USA: 5
Canada: 5
Australia: 3
South Africa: 3
Zimbabwe: 1
Malawi: 1
Zambia: 1
Barbados 1
Jamaica: 1
Guyana: 1
Sierra Leone: 1
New Zealand: 1
Papua New Guinea: 1

* These cities are Scottish, Welsh or Northern Irish. To my mind a civ which includes these cities should be called 'British' not 'English'. In case Rhye wishes to remove these cities, I've included extra English cities in the lists where they appear.

** These cities are now American. I've included extra British-founded cities in the list where they appear, in case Rhye prefers them on the American citylist.

*** Founded by Boers, but annexed and renamed by the British within a year

(city name) Cities in brackets are ones that I recommend removing if the US, Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish cities are retained, in order to keep the lists down to ten cities in each category.

COLONIAL PORTS
Boston, 1630, USA **
Providence, 1636, USA **
Bridgetown, 1654, Barbados
Kingston, 1692, Jamaica
Baltimore, 1729, USA **
Georgetown, 1781, Guyana
Freetown, 1787, Sierra Leone
Sydney, 1788, Australia
Port Elizabeth, 1820, South Africa
Brisbane, 1824, Australia
Auckland, 1840, New Zealand
Vancouver, 1863, Canada
Port Moresby, 1873, Papua New Guinea

I think that the American cities should be removed from this list and the overseas coastal list changed to:

Sydney
Melbourne
Hobart
Brisbane
Auckland
Christchurch
Port Elizabeth
Kingston
Vancouver
Perth

Well I've done the lists so that the US cities can be removed and still leave ten cities in each list.

Out of interest, what was the rationale behind your adjustment of the coastal city list? All of the cities you suggest were certainly major ports, but they cover a much smaller part of the British Empire than my proposed list.

I listed the coastal overseas cities which are prominent today. I figured that this was more relevant in a randomly generated map than geographic coverage of the real world - which isn't exactly relevant on a completely new map.

Melbourne is >> Port Moresby for instance.

I'd suggest Alice Springs should be replaced with Canberra also for list 3.

Not sure if this might have been pointed out already, but in the French lists, Montréal should be a coastal city... it's the second-busiest port in Canada, and was the hub of the lumber trade for most of its history.

I listed the coastal overseas cities which are prominent today. I figured that this was more relevant in a randomly generated map than geographic coverage of the real world - which isn't exactly relevant on a completely new map.

Melbourne is >> Port Moresby for instance.

I'd suggest Alice Springs should be replaced with Canberra also for list 3.

I see your point but I don't see why the modern era should be prioritised over all other others. Also, I still think geographical balance matters because if the English civ settles all over the world, even though it's a fictional world, you'd expect the pattern of cities to represent the broad span of English/British colonies across the world.

I know Canberra is much more significant than Alice Springs but to me Canberra is so tied to the period of Australian history after independence from Britain city that it just seems weird to have it as part of an English civ.

Regina was founded after Canada purchased the North-West Territories. So I probably wouldn't include it. Winnipeg, or as it was known before Confederation, Fort Garry, would be the best from the region. I would also rate Winnipeg as more important historically.

It is also sad to exclude Kingston, Ontario, but Jamaica's should be rated higher.

Philadelphia, and probably Boston, should definitely be US. Less important cities (such as Providence) could easily go to the British. There are probably 10 US cities more, or at least as, important than Providence, whose greatest importance was early on, but not that sure about it.
I would also say that Jamestown should be on the British list. Being the First [successful] British overseas colony, and of little importance (other than history) since colonial times.
The US should have first shot at most of its major cities (else many would go to someone else), but if they don't go on the US list (or there are cities that could easily replace it) they can, and should, go elsewhere.

Halifax (1749) was a major port for the British throughout its history. It should be included.

Halifax (1749) was a major port for the British throughout its history. It should be included.

I second this. Virdrago's right.

I've replaced Regina with Winnipeg in my suggested English citylist, but what should Halifax replace? (ignoring the American cities, because I think this should be left to Rhye, it depends on how the American civ comes into existence in RFC RAND; it might be the case that England's first colonial cities are always swallowed by America)

Personally I really don't think Jamestown should be included just because it happened to be the first. Cities in civ are important centres of economic, political, military and cultural activity. Jamestown was/is none of this.

Of course my list has no authority and Rhye will probably just ignore it and keep his own list, but it's probably more convenient to have a single list suggested by RFC-fans than for him to have to trawl through the whole forum and consider every comment.

I've gathered all your lists made so far. Added a few swaps occasionally, but I didn't make a whole revision.

I also wanted to make clear that:
-by no means you should delete cities if >10. I just said that 10 is enough
-even if you have less than 10, it can be OK if the other lists are bigger
-Founding date isn't the only sort criteria. Should be a combination of factors, such as city importance, historical and modern, controversies, distance from the capital, and its name (I prefer to use, where possible, names not longer than Nouvelle Orleans)

EGY

Category 1:

"Niwt-Rst",#Thebes
"Ineb Hedj",#Memphis
"Per-Atum",#Heliopolis
"Henen-Nesut",#Heracleopolis
"Yebu",#Elephantine
"Abdju",#Abydos
"Abusir",#Busiris
"Hut-Repyt",#Athribis
"Djanet",#Tanis
"Khmun",#Hermopolis
"Zawty",#Asyut
"Nekhen",#Heirakonpolis
"Tjeny",#Thinis
"Shedyet",# Crocodilopolis
"Gebtu",#Coptos
"Akhetaton",
"Pi-Ramesses",


Category 2:

"Per-Atum",#Pithom
"Djede",#Mendes
"Per-Wadjet",#Buto
"Per-Bastet", #Bubastis
"Tjebnutjer",#Sebennytos
"Hatwaret",#Avaris

Category 3:

"Kadesh",
"Dapur",#supposedly in Syria

Category 4:

"Gaza",
"Zemar",#in Lebanon



IND



Category One

"Dilli",#(2000 B.C.)(Capital)
"Lahore",#(2000 B.C.)(in pakistan)
"Varanasi",#(1000 B.C.)
"Nagpur",#(700 B.C.)(Note:Line over the a!)
"Takshashila",#(518 B.C.)
"Patna",#(490 B.C.)
"Ujjaini",#(400 B.C.)
"Agra",#(150 A.D. or 1504 A.D.)
"Bengaluru",#(500 A.D.)
"Dhaka",#(600 A.D.)
"Raipur",#(800 A.D.)
"Bhopal",#(1000 A.D.)
"Lakhnau",#(1350 A.D.?)
"Indore",#(Mughal Times)
"Amritsr",#(1574 A.D.)
"Hyderabad",#(1591 A.D.)
"Jaipur",#(1727)


Category Two

"Chittagong",#(ancient times)
"Mumbai",#(250 B.C.)
"Cochin",
"Calcutta",#(0 A.D.)
"Chennai",#(0 A.D.)
"Karachi",#(712 A.D.?)(in pakistan)
"Thiruvananthapuram",#(1000 B.C.)
"Visakhapatnam",#(500 B.C.)
"Orugallu",#(300 B.C.)
"Govapuri",#(200 B.C.)
"Tanjapuri",#(0 A.D.)
"Surat",#(1400's)
"Berhampur",
"Kakinada",
"Pitikapuram",

Category Three

"Badulla",#(Ancient Times)
"Galle",#(1400 B.C.)
"Anuradhapura",#(400 B.C.)
"Kurunegala",#(1200's)
"Kandy",#(1300's)
"Ratnapura",


Category Four

"Male",#(ancient times)
"Sri Jayawardenapura-Kotte",#(ancient times)
"Kolon Thota",#(0 A.D.)
"Trincomalee",#(400 B.C.)
"Jaffna",


CHI

"Beijing",# founded in 1045 BC
"Xi'an",#(Chang'an) founded in 1000s BC
"Luoyang",#770BC
"Kaifeng",#700sBC (flourish in 1000ADs, before invade of Mongols)
"Suzhou",#541BC
"Yangzhou",#486BC (flourish in 1000ADs, before invade of Mongols)
"Nanjing",#472BC
"Chengdu",#311BC (a city never completely destroyed, have a mass earthquake recently)
"Shenyang",# BC301~296
"Lanzhou",#241
"Chongqing",#(BC 1100s but named Chongqing in 1189)
"Wuhan",#(BC 1500s but disappear in BC 1100s, 3 cities together renamed Wuhan in 1927)
"Wulumuqi",#(Urumqi) 1755 AD (So we call there "new horizon")

II- Coastal Cities on the Home Continent
"Hangzhou",#(Lin'an) 221BC
"Guangzhou",#(Canton) 214BC
"Ningbo",# 821AD
"Xianmen",#(Amoy) 1387AD
"Tianjin",#(Tientsin) 1404AD
"Shanghai",# 1553AD
"Qingdao",#(Tsintao) 1891AD (Former German Colony)
"Macau",# (Aomen ??) Maybe 1557AD (Who knows what Portuguese did there?)
"Xianggang",#1841AD
"Dalian",#1899AD (Former Russian Colony)
"Shenzhen",#1980AD (the fastest growing cities, use 20 years from a small villige to a city with 11 million population)

3- for non-coastal cities in another continent
"Lasa",#(Lhasa) 633 AD (Not ours that time, but Tibet belong to China since the domination of Mogols 700years ago)
"Pyongyang",

4- for coastal cities in another continent
"Haikou",#several hundreds years ago
"Sanya",#Sanya
"Taibei",#1875AD (Taiwan was invaded by Niederlander, Spainish and Japanese, but it's part of China undoubtly, no matter it's PRC or ROC)
"Gaoxiong",#Kaohsiung





BAB
1- for non-coastal cities in the continent

"Babilû",
"Uruk",#Erech
"Larsa",#Lasar
"Ninua",
"Shushan",
"Nippur",
"Akkad",#Agade
"Eshnunna",
"Kish",
"Isin",
"Zariqum",
"Opis",
"Borsippa",#Barsippa
"Anatho",
"Sippar",
"Zuruban",
"Calchu",#Assyrian city of Nimrud.
"Cuthah",#Assyrian or Iranian plateau city.
"Mari",#west of original Babylonian power.
"Thapsacus",#tributary from Syria.

2- for coastal cities in the continent

"Eridu",
"Ur",
"Lagash",
"Kesh",#not the same as Kish

3- for non-coastal cities in another continent


4-

"Raphia",



GRE


Category One

"Sparte",#(1100 B.C.)
"Larisa",#(400 B.C.)
"Trikka",

Category Two

"Athenai",#(1000 B.C.)(Capital)
"Patras",#(3000 B.C.)
"Thessaloniki",#(315 B.C.)
"Arta",#(295 B.C.)

CAR


Category 1:

"Utica",
"Zama",
"Sicca",#(El Kef)
"Sarim Batim",#(Constantine, Algeria)
"Sitifis",#(Setif)


Category 2:

"Qart-Hadasht",#(Carthage)
"Hippo",#(Annaba)
"Kerkouane",
"Lpqy",
"Oea",#(Tripoli)
"Thapsus",
"Tingi",#(Tangier)
"Ikosim",#(Algiers)
"Rusadir",
"Tacape",
"Sabratha",
"Iol",#(Chercell)
"Tipasa",
"Lixus",
"Adrametum",
"Thanae",

Category 3:

"Carmo",#(Carmona)
"Helmantica",#(Salamanca)
"Elibyrge",#(Grenada)

Category 4:

"Qart Hadasht",#(Nova Carthago)
"Malaka",#(Malaga)
"Sexi",#(Almuñécar)
"Ziz",#(Palermo)
"Gades",#(Cádiz)
"Abdera",
"Karalis",#(Cagliari)
"Olbia",
"Melita",#(Malta)
"Motya",
"Lilybaeum",

ROM


1) Non-coastal cities:

"Roma",# founded 753 b.C.
"Arretium",# (Arezzo) founded IX century b.C., conquered 295 b.C.
"Tarquinii",# (Tarquinia) conquered 281 b.C.
"Mediolanum",# (Milano) founded 600 b.C., conquered 222 b.C.

"Beneventum",# (Benevento) founded VII century b.C., conquered 268 b.C.

"Faesulae",# (Fiesole) annexed III century b.C.
"Felsina",# – Bononia (Bologna) founded 534 b.C., conquered 189 b.C.
"Brixia",# (Brescia) founded VI century b.C., annexed 189 b.C.
"Parma",# founded VI century b.C., annexed 183 b.C.
"Perusia",# (Perugia) founded VI century b.C., annexed 89 b.C.
"Verona",# annexed 89 b.C.
"Placentia",# (Piacenza) founded 218 b.C.
"Ticinum",# (Pavia) founded 189 b.C.
"Forum Livii",#(Forlì) founded 188 b.C.
"Aquileia",#founded 181 b.C.
"Florentia",# (Firenze) founded 59 b.C.
"Augusta Taurinorum",#(Torino) founded 29 b.C.
"Augusta Praetoria",#(Aosta) founded 25 b.C.


2) Coastal cities:

"Ostia",# founded 633 b.C.
"Antium",# (Anzio) annexed V century b.C.?
"Capua",# founded 800 b.C., annexed 343 b.C.
"Rhegium",# (Reggio Calabria) founded VIII century b.C., annexed 341 b.C.
"Neapolis",# (Napoli) founded V century b.C., conquered 326 b.C.
"Tarentum",# (Taranto) founded 706 b.C., conquered 272 b.C.
"Brundisium",# (Brindisi) founded ?, conquered 267 b.C.
"Genua",# (Genova) founded XX century b.C., refounded 203 b.C.
"Pisae",# (Pisa) founded VI century b.C., annexed 180 b.C.
"Ancona",# founded 387 b.C., annexed 113 b.C.

3- for non-coastal cities in another continent
"Italica",# (206 BCE)
"Metellinum",# (80 BCE)
"Corinthiensis",# (44 BCE)
"Lugdunum",# (43 BCE)
"Emerita Augusta",# (25 BCE)
"Bracara Augusta",# (20 BCE)
"Augusta Treverorum",# (16 BCE)
"Augusta Rauracorum",# (15 BCE)
"Augusta Vindelicorum",# (15 BCE)
"Augusta Suessionum",# (Augustus)
"Camulodunom",# (43 CE)
"Eboracum",# (71 CE)

4- for coastal cities in another continent
"Dyrrachium",# (229 BCE)
"Colonia Iunonia",#/Carthago (122 BCE)
"Narbo Martius",# (118 BCE)
"Tarraco",# (?)
"Thapsus",# (46 BCE)
"Patras",# (Augustus)
#Nova Roma/Constantinopolis (330 CE)



JAP

Noncoastal Continental
"Kyoto",# (capital, 6th century, originally Heian-kyo)
"Nara", #(710)
"Nagano",# (642)
"Fukushima",# (12th century)
"Yamaguchi",# (14th century)
"Matsumoto",# (15th century)
"Takayama",# (16th century)
"Morioka",# (1597)
"Nagaoka",# (1616)

Coastal Continental
"Edo",# (1457, Tokyo after 1603)
"Fukuoka",# (ancient times)
"Osaka",# (3rd century)
"Kobe",# (3rd century)
"Kagoshima",# (14th century)
"Nagasaki",# (before 16th century)
"Hiroshima",# (1589)
"Sendai",# (1600)
"Nagoya",# (1610)
"Shimonoseki",# (18th century)
"Yokohama",# (19th century)

Noncoastal Noncontinental
"Sapporo",# (late 19th century)
"Mukden",# (ancient, Japanese after 1905, also Shenyang [don’t know the Japanese name, Mukden is Manchurian])
"Toyohara",# (1905)

Coastal Noncontinental
"Naha",# (ancient times)
"Hakodate",# (1454)
"Kushiro",# (1869)
"Otomari",# (1905)
"Keijo",# (conquered 1910, Japanese name for Seoul)



ETH


Category 1:

"Aksum",# - capital of the ancient country of Aksum (coincidentally).
"Yeha",# - may have been the capital of the D'mt kingdom (8th century BC).
"Hawulti",# - evidently an important city of the Aksumite kingdom.
"Qohaito",# - may have been Aksum's summer capital.
"Matara",# - major Aksumite city.
"Lalibela",# - either originally Roha or Adefa. Renamed after King Lalibela, who was born there. Second-holiest city in the country to Ethiopians after Aksum.
"Asmera",# - founded in the 12th century during Solomonic dynasty.
"Debre Berhan",# - founded by Zara Yakob as his capital (1456).
"Gonder",# - capital from 1635 until 1855.
"Adowa",# - gained importance in the 17th century as a trade route between Gonder and the coast.
"Makale",# - founded 13th century, not important until the 19th.
"Addis Ababa",# - founded 1886 by Menelik II.
"Dessye",# - founded 1882.
"Diredawa",# - founded 1902.

Category 2:

"Adulis",# - main port of Aksum. Now capital of Eritrea.
"Avalitis",# - modern Assab.
"Massawa",# - also spelled Massawa. Overshadowed by Adulis most of its history.

Category 3:

"Saphar",# - Zafar, Yemen. Part of the Aksumite Kingdom at its height.
"Harerge",# - also Harar. Capital of the Islamic kingdom of Adal.
"Bonga",# - capital of the kingdom of Kaffa, 14th to 19th centuries.

Category 4:

"Muza",# - site in modern Saudi Arabia. Part of ancient Aksum.
"Zeila",# - capital of the sultanate of Ifat.
"Suakin",# - in Sudan.






VIK


1:
"Birka",
"Västerås",
"Södertälje",
"Viborg",
"Uppsala",
"Lund",
"Skien",
"Randers",
"Roskilde",
"Hedeby",
"Schleswig",
"Skara",
"Sigtuna",
"Linköping",
"Örebro",
"Odense",
"Ålborg",

2:
"Nidaros",
"Oslo",
"Tønsberg",
"Stockholm",
"Bergen",
"Helsingborg",
"Kalmar",
"Stavanger",
"København",
"Århus",
"Aalborg",
"Malmö",
"Ribe",
"Sarpsborg",
"Visby",
"Køge",
"Köpingsvik",
"Kaupang",

3.
"Cork",
"Limerick",
"Wexford",
"Skarðaborg",
"Grobina",
"Holmgård",
"Timerevo",

4.
"Waterford",
"Dublin",
"Reykjavik",
"Tórshavn",
"Vinland",
"Kirkwall",
"Swansea",
"Klaksvík",
"Helluland",
"Markland",
"Hjaltland",
"Arklow",
"Brattahlíð",
"Hafnarfjörður",
"Reay",

ARA

1.
"Makkah",
"Al-Madinah",
"Dimashq",
"Baghdad",
"Najran",
"Mosul",
"Ar-Riyad",
"Halab",
"Sanaa",
"Amman",

2.
"Al-Basrah",
"Gaza",
"Beirut",
"Masqat",
"Aden",
"Al-Qatif",
"Abu-Dhabi",
"Dubai",
"Al-Kuwait",
"Ad-Dammam",
"Salalah",

3.
"Aswan",
"Al Qayrawan",
"Fas",
"Gárnata",
"Harar",
"Al-Khartum",
"Sabha",

4.
"Al-Iskhandariya",
"Al-Jazair",
"Tunis",
"Wahran",
"Dar-Beida",
"Rabbat",
"Maqadishu",
"Zanji-bar",
"Tobruk",


KHM

1- for non-coastal cities in the continent

"Angkor",#
"Yasodharapura",# - first Khmer capital built at Angkor. Sanskrit translation: "Holy City", or "Capital City" by extension.
"Isanapura",# - capital of the Khmer kingdom of Chenla.
"Hariharalaya",# - another former capital.
"Sambhupura",# - captured by Jayavarman II. On the Mekong.
"Ba Phnom",#
"Suryaparvata",#
"Wat Phu",# - temple complex associated with Shrestapura, a Chenla or Champa city. Shrestapura may be a better option, since its a city.
"Mahendraparvata",# - founded by Jayavarman II.
"Aninditapura",#
"Lovek",# - capital in the sixteenth century.
"Pursat",#
"Koh Ker",# - capital under Jayavarman IV and Hasavarman II.
"Pimai",# - also Phimai.
"Udong",#
"Mahanokor",# - could also be Wat Nokor?
"Siem Reap",# - means "defeat of Siam".
"Beng Melea",# - Ancient Khmer city.
"Phnom Penh",# - current capital, after Koh Ker.
"Batdambang",# - founded in the 11th century.
"Lomphat",#
"Kampong Svay",# - another ancient Khmer city.
"Kracheh",# - also called Kratie.


2- for coastal cities in the continent

"Prey Nokor",# - Now Ho Chi Minh City (Saigon). Main Khmer port until the 17th century.
"Chaudoc",# - Now in southern Vietnam.
"Kampot",#

3- for non-coastal cities in another continent

"Klong Thom",# - supposedly in modern Thailand.

4- for coastal cities in another continent

"Indrapur",# - Cham city conquered by the Khmer. Today's Dong Duong in Vietnam.
"Kauthara",# - Another Cham city captured by the Khmer, around 945.



SPA


"Madrid",
"Sevilla",
"Toledo",
"Zaragoza",
"Santiago",
"Salamanca",
"Pamplona",
"Córdoba",
"Granada",
"Badajoz",
"León",
"Oviedo",
"Vitoria",
"Bilbao",
"Albacete",
"Burgos",

"Barcelona",
"Valencia",
"La Coruña",
"Santander",
"Malaga",
"Alicante",
"Huelva",
"Almería",
"Ceuta",
"Melilla",
"Tenerife",
"Ibiza",

"Guadalajara",
"La Paz",
"Medellín",
"Bogotá",
"Monterrey",
"Villa Hermosa",
"Asunción",
"Puebla",
"Chihuahua",
"Concepción",
"Santa Fé",
"San Antonio",
"Hermosillo",
"Las Vegas",
"Rosario",

"Santo Domingo",
"La Habana",
"Veracruz",
"Lima",
"San Juan",
"Buenos Aires",
"Campeche",
"Caracas",
"Santa Marta",
"San Salvador",
"Guatemala",
"Cartagena de Indias",
"Montevideo",
#"Los Angeles",
"Sacremento",#(1839)
"San Diego",





FRA

Category One

"Paris",#(52 B.C.)
"Lyon",#(100 B.C.)
"Avignon",#(Roman Times)
"Orléans",
"Reims",#(496 A.D.)
"Tours",
"Chartres",
"Toulouse",
"Angers",
"Rennes",
"Avignon",
"Besançon",
"Dijon",
"Poitiers",
"Amiens",
"Metz",
"Clermont-Ferrand",
"Rouen",
"Limoges",

Category Two

"Marseille",#(100-0 B.C.)
"Bordeaux",#(350 B.C.)
"Brest",
"Le Havre",
"Nantes",
"Nice",
"Toulon",
"Calais",
"La Rochelle",
"Montpellier",
"La Roche-sur-Yon",
"Saint-Nazaire",
"Caen",
"Perpignan",
"Biarritz",
"Dunkerque",


Category Three
"Québec", #(1608)
"Bâton-Rouge", #(1699)
"St.Louis", #(1703)
"Fort Détroit", #(1701)
"Tadoussac", #(1599)
"Fort Toulouse", #(1717)
"Fort Niagara", #(1726)
"Fort Dauphin",
"Sault Ste-Marie", #(1668)
"Saül", #
"Trois-Rivières",
"Fort-Lamy",
"Bangui",

Category Four
"Cayenne", #(1604)
"Port Royal", #(1605)
"Montréal", #(1642)
"Fort Caroline", #(1564)
"Nouvelle Orleans", #(1718)
"Fort-de-France", #(1638)
"Basse-Terre", #(1643)
"Mobile", #(1702)
"Biloxi", #(1699)
"Port-au-Prince", #(1749)
"Kourou",
"Libreville",
"Philippeville",
"Abidjan",
"Conakry",
"Pointe-à-Pitre",
"Cap-Francais",
"Nouméa", #(1864)
"Saint-Louis-du-Sénégal",



ENG


"York",# 71, Roman
"Manchester", #79, Roman
"Newcastle",#120, Roman
"Nottingham",#c. 550
"Ipswich",
"Norwich", #c. 650
"Birmingham", #c. 600
"Bath", #43, Roman
"Cambridge",
"Canterbury",
"Glasgow", #c. 550 *
"Middlesbrough",
"Lincoln", #c. 650
"Coventry", #1043
"Leeds",
"Derby",
"Leicester",
"Coventry",
"Wolverhampton",
"Blackburn",

"London",#43, Roman
#"Gloucester", #48, Roman
#"Exeter", #50, Roman
"Southampton", #c 50, Roman
"Hastings",
"Edinburgh",#c. 600 *
"Cardiff",#55, Roman *
"Glasgow",# c. 550 *
"Brighton",
"Aberdeen", #c. 750
"Bristol",# 1000
"Hull", #1150
"Portsmouth", #1180
"Blackpool",
"Liverpool", #1207
"Plymouth", #1235
"Belfast",#1609

#"Philadelphia", #1682, USA **
"Toronto", #1787, Canada
"Ottawa", #1800, Canada
"Edmonton", #1790, Canada
"Ladysmith", #1850, South Africa ***
"Kimberley", #1871, South Africa
"Winnipeg",
"Upington",
"Salisbury",#1890, capital of Zimbabwe
"Blantyre",#1891, Malawi
"Livingstone", #c. 1895, Zambia
"Alice Springs", #c. 1870, Australia
"Hamilton",
"Canberra",#1820
"Regina",#1882, Canada

"Jamestown",
#"Boston",#1630
"Providence",#1636
#"Baltimore",#1729, USA **
"Bridgetown",#1654, Barbados
"Kingston",#1692, Jamaica
"Georgetown",# 1781, Guyana
"Sydney",#1788, Australia
"Durban",
"Melbourne",
"Perth",
"Vancouver",
"Adelaide",
"Wellington",
"Halifax", #1749
"Port Elizabeth",#1820, South Africa
"Brisbane",#1824, Australia
"Auckland", #1840, New Zealand
"Vancouver", #1863, Canada
"Port Moresby", #1873, Papua New Guinea
"Stanley",



GER

Category One

"Berlin", #(1157)(Capital)
"Wien", #(200 B.C.)
"München", #(1158)
"Frankfurt", #(794)
"Aachen (765) (HRE)
"Köln",
"Salzburg", #(700's)
"Trier (16 BC) (considered as olderst german town)
"Dortmund", #(880)
"Stuttgart", #(950)
"Leipzig", #(1015)
"Nürnburg", #(1050)
"Düsseldorf", #(1135)
"Hannover", #(1200's)
"Dresden", #(1206)
"Essen", #(700's)
"Warschau", #(1000's)
"Breslau", #(1000's)
"Pressburg", #(1000's)
"Magdeburg",
"Würzburg",
"Ulm",
"Karlsruhe",
"Halle",
"Potsdam",
"Luxemburg",
"Schwerin",
"Goslar",


Category Two

"Bremen", #(150)
"Hamburg", #(808)
"Königsberg", #(1255)(Prussian Capital)(now Kaliningrad, Russia)
"Lübeck", #(700)
"Danzig", #(980)
"Ellbing", #(890)(now Poland: Elblag)
"Rostock", #(1000's)
"Oldenburg", #(1108)(low german: Ollnburg)
"Stralsund", #(1168)
"Griefswald", #(1199)
"Kiel", #(1233)
"Wismar",# (1000)
"Wilhelmshaven", #(1869)


Category Three

"Otjimbingwe", #(1849)
"Weidmannsheil", #(1850)
"Wituland", #(1858)
"Lüderitzbucht", #(1883)
"Yaounde", #(1888)
"Bujumbura", #(1889)
"Kigali", #(1907)
"Bismarckburg",

Category Four

"Klein Venedig", #(1529)
"Groß Friedrichsburg", #(1683)
"Krabbeninsel", #(1689)
"Tertholen", #(1696)
"Bagamoyo", #(1700's)
"Sebeib", #(1884)
"Kaiser-Wilhelmsland", #(1884)
"Marshallinseln", #(1885)
"Swakopmund", #(1892)



RUS


1.

"Moskva",#1147 (Landlocked Capital)
"Novgorod",#950s or so
"Kiev",# - Really Damn Old
"Jaroslavl",#1010 or so
"Tver"# - 1164
"Smolensk",#863 or so
"Carycin",#1589
"Samara",#1586
"Tula",#1300s
"Vladimir",#1108 or so
"Perm",#1647
"Pskov",#903 or so
"Voronezh",#1585
"Novosibirsk",
"Rostov",# 862 or so
"Kursk",
"Izhevsk",#1760
"Nizhnij Novgorod"# – 1221

Category 2:

"St. Petersburg", # (Coastal Capital) – 1703
"Archangelsk",#1584
"Astrakhan",
"Rostov-na-Donu",#1794
"Sevastopol",# (now Ukrainian) 1783
"Odessa",# (ditto)
"Novorossijsk",# (Black Sea) – 1838
"Sochi", #1864
"Murmansk", #1916
"Vladivostok",
"Petropavlovsk",# - Kamchatsky
"Magadan",
"Yalta",# (Ukrainian now)



3.
"Jakutsk",# – 1632
"Ekaterinburg",# – 1723
"Irkutsk",# – 1652
"Khabarovsk",# – 1858
"Novosibirsk",# – 1893
"Cheljabinsk",# -1763
"Tobolsk",# – 1585
"Tjumen",# – 1586
"Tomsk",# – 1604
"Krasnojarsk – 1628
"Omsk",# – 1716
"Barnaul",# – 1730
"Kemerovo",# – 1918
"Vostok",#(Inland Antarctic station)
"Buyukly",#(inland Sakhalin)
"Yuzhno-Sakhalinsk",# (post WW2 name), oblast capital.



4.

"Novo-Arkhangelsk",# – 1804 (Alaska, major settlement)
"Vladivostok",# – 1860
"Okhotsk",# - 1643
"Pavlovskaja Gavan'",# - 1792
"Voskresenskaja",# (Seward, under the USA) – 1793
"Konstantinovsky",# – 1793
"Slavorossija",# – 1796
"Krepost' Ross",# (Fort Ross) – 1812
"Voskresenskaya",# (should shange to Seward when captured by USA)
"Pavlovskaya Gavan'",# (1792)
"Konstantinovsky",# (1793)
"Port Chichagov",# – around 1800 (?)
"Petropavlovsk–Kamchatskij",# – 1740
"Korsakov",# (largest town, coastal) (Sakhalin)
"Alexandrovka",# (non-minor town) (Sakhalin)
"Yuzhno-Kurilsk",# (Japanese name: Furukamappu)
"Kodiak",# (Alaska, major settlement)
"Unalaska",# (Alaska, major settlement)
"Mikhailovsk",# (Alaska, major settlement)
"Mirnyy",# (Coastal Antarctic stations)
"Molodyozhnaya",# (Coastal Antarctic stations)
"Novolazarevskaya",# (Coastal Antarctic stations)
"Magadan",# – 1930s





NET


1) Non-costal homeland
"Utrecht",
"Arnhem",
"Maastricht",
"Nijmegen",
"Groningen",
"Delft",
"Alkmaar",
"'s-Hertogenbosch",
"Leeuwarden",
"Leiden",
"Breda",
"Dordrecht",
"Apeldoorn",
"Zwolle",

2) costal homeland
"Amsterdam",
"Rotterdam",
"'s-Gravenhage", #Den Haag (=The Hague)
"Haarlem",
"Den Helder", # (Historical important)
"Den Briel", # (Historical important)
"Veere", # (Historical important)
"Middelburg", # (Historical important, VOC HQ, currently non costal)
"IJmuiden",
"Vlissingen",
"Terneuzen",
"Delfzijl",

3) Non costal colonial (hard, as the Dutch didn't colonise continental and if they did, is was in jungle land, so not much)
"Bloemenfontein",
"Johannesburg",
"Windhoek",
"Pretoria",
"Stellenbosch",
"Fort Nassau",
"Fort Oranje",
"Fort Zeelandia", # (many costal colonies are named likewise)
"Noortwijck", # (New York area)

4)Costal colonies (New = Nieuw)
"Kaapstad", # (in RFC Kaapstadt)
"Nieuw Amsterdam", # (not only New York)
"Nieuw Rotterdam",
"Walvisbaai", # (= whale Bay)
"Batavia", # (= Djakatra)
"Oranjestad",
"Willemstad",
"Mauritsstad",
"Pietermaritzburg",
"Stabroek",
"Paramaribo",
"Deshima", # (artificial island in Japan in the 1600's, Dutch tradingpost until the 1800's, also 't eyland Schisma)



MAL

1- non-coastal cities in the continent
Timbuktu
"Niani",# - the actual capital of Mali
"Kangaba",# - pre Malian Empire capital
"Jenne",#
"Gao",#
"Taghaza",#
"Walata",#
""Tadmekka",#
"Wadan",#
"Awdaghost",#
"Teodeni",#
"Bilma",#
"Agades",#
"Titchitt",#
"Kirina",#
"Takedda",#
"Kita",#
"Kulikoro",#
"Kumbi Saleh",# (G)
"Kukiya",# (S)
"Kitsina",#, also called Katsina (S)
"Kano",# (S)
"Zaria",# (S)
"Segu",# (S)
"Arawan",# (S)
"Hombori",# (S)
"Rano",# (S)
"Tondib",#i (S)
"Diara",# (S)
"Bamba",# (S)
"Bussa",# (S)
"Say",# (S)

2- coastal cities in the continent

"Accra",# (G)
"Nioro",# (G)


POR

Portugal

1.Coastal
"Lisboa",
"Porto",
"Faro",
"Leiria",
"Lagos",
"Setúbal",
"Tavira",
"Aveiro",
"Viana do Castelo",
"Figueira da Foz",

2.Inland
"Guimarães",
"Braga",
"Coimbra",
"Silves",
"Viseu",
"Lamego",
"Bragança",
"Évora",
"Guarda",
"Castelo Branco",
"Tomar",


Category 3

"Huambo",#(Angola)
"São Salvador",#(Congo)
"Cuito Cuanavale",#(Angola)
"Malvérnia",#(Mozambique)
"Vila Pery", #(Mozambique)
"Vila Junqueiro",#(Mozambique)
"Vila Cabral",#(Mozambique)
"Sá da Bandeira",#(Angola)
"Vila Luso",#(Angola)


Category 4

"Ponta Delgada",
"Funchal",
"Bissau",
"Luanda",
"Lourenço Marques",# (Maputo in Moçambique)
"Porto Seguro",
"Rio de Janeiro",
"Brasilia",
"Díli",# (in Timor-Leste)
"Goa", #(pangim/panaji/panjim in India)
"Damão",# (Daman in India)







INC


1
"Qusqu",
"Machu-Pikchu",
"Quitu",
"Ariqipaya",
"Wantar Chawin",# (oldest settlement in America, should be renamed as Chavín de Huántar if conquered by Spain))
"Kashamarka", #(Cajamarca)
"Huamanga",
"Willkapampa", (should be renamed to Vilcabamba if conquered by Spain)
"Ullantaytanpu",
"Andahuailas",
"Waras", #(Huaraz)
"Tomebamba",
"Kuélap",

2
"Chan-Chan",
"Nazca",
"Tiyawanaku",# (used to be on Titicaca, but as close as what the original Incan knew as a sea)
"Tucume",
"Pachacamaq",
"Punu",# (on Titicaca, but as close as what the original Incan knew as a sea, should be renamed as Puno if conquered by Spain)




MON


I- Non-coastal Cities on the Home Continent

"Kharakhorum",#- 1220
"Ulaanbaatar",# - 1639
"Ulaan-Ude",# (Ulan-Ude) -1666
"Samarqand",# - 700BC-ish
"Bukhara",# - 500BC-ish, leveled by the Mongols in 1220
"Tashkent",# – 400BC-ish, leveled by the Mongols in 1219
"Kasgár",# – 76BC-ish
"Urumqi",# – founded by the Tang Dynasty in 0AD-ish, dubbed Urumqi in 1954
"Lhasa",# - 641AD–ish
"Hohhot",#- 1580
"Amarbayasgalant",# – 1727
"Chojbalsan",# – 1800s
"Chahar",# – 1912
"Sukhbaatar",# - 1940
"Darkhan",# - 1961
"Erdenet",# - 1975

II- Coastal Cities on the Home Continent

"Khovsgol",# - 1931
"Khalkh Gol",# - site of major fighting in 1939
"Olkhon",# - 1987
"Uvs Nuur",# - Lake, permanent settlement in 1930s
"Hulun Nuur",# - Lake, permanent settlement in 1930s

III- Non-coastal Cities on Another Continent #Europe

"Sarai Berke",# – 1245-ish
"Shine Sarai",# (New Sarai, which was separate, while Sarai Berke and Sarai Batu were probably the same city) – before 1395
"Kazan",# - mid 1400s
"Khem-Beldyr",# – 1914

IV- Coastal Cities on Another Continent

"Khazaran",# - Between 600 and 1000AD
"Astrakhan",# - existed in the 1200s
"Elista",# – 1865

TUR

Category One

"Angora",#(1200 B.C.)(Current Capital)
"Edirne",#(? by Greeks)
"Bursa",#(202 B.C. by Greeks)
"Konya",#(3000-1500 B.C.)
"Erzurum",#(Ancient times)
"Denizli",#(Prehistoric Times by Greeks)
"Ayintap",#(1500-1000 B.C.)
"Malatya",#(1400 B.C.)
"Diyâr-i Bekr",#(1200 B.C.)
"Eskisehir",#(1000 B.C.)


Category Two

"Istanbul",#(Capital)(founded 330 A.D. by Romans and 667 B.C. by Greeks)
"Izmir",#(1500 B.C.)
"Trabzon",#(756 B.C. by Greeks)
"Kayseri",
"Alanya",#(625 B.C.)
"Samsun",#(500 B.C. by Greeks)
"Iskenderon",#(333 B.C.)
"Antalya",#(150 B.C. by Greeks)
"Mersin",#(8000 B.C./1200 B.C.)
"Karadeniz Eregli",#(Ancient times by Greeks)
"Bandirma",#(Recently)

AME

#*means initially founded by England
#**means initially founded by France
#***means initially founded by Spain or Mexico
#****means initially founded by the Netherlands


1 noncoastal in initial continent:
"Detroit",# ca 1701*
"Chicago",# ca 1770*
"Kansas City",# (1714)
"Pittsburgh",# ca 1758*
"Nashville",# (1779)
"Cincinnati",# ca 1788
"Buffalo",# ca 1789
"Cleveland",# ca 1796
"Indianapolis",# (1821)
"Atlanta",# ca 1837
"Minneapolis?(1837)
"Dallas",# ca 1841
"Salt Lake City",# ca 1847
"Denver",# ca 1858
"Phoenix",# ca 1881
#"Las Vegas",# ca 1905

2 coastal on initial continent:
"Washington",# ca 1790 (capital)
"New York",# ca 1624**** (also potentially an English settlement)
"Boston",# ca 1630*
"Philadelphia",# ca 1681*
#"New Orleans",# ca 1718** (potentially Spanish as well)
#"San Diego",# ca 1769***
"Los Angeles",# ca 1771***
"Jacksonville",#(1791)
"San Francisco",# ca 1776***
"Miami",# ca 1825
"Houston",# ca 1837
"Portland",#(1843)(not on ocean but close enough)
"Oakland",#(1848)
"Seattle",# ca 1851
"Virginia Beach",


3 non-coastal cities in another continent:
"Juneau",# (alaska) 1881
"Fairbanks",#(1903)
"Camp Darby",#(Italy)
"Camp Ederle",#(Italy)
"Fort Gulick",#(Panama)
"Fort Sherman",#(Panama)
"Quarry Heights",#(Panama)
"Fort Clayton",#(Panama)
"Fort Kobbe",#(Panama)


4 coastal cities in another continent:

"Saint Thomas",# ca 1657****
"Guam",# ca 1668***
"Monrovia",
"Freetown",
"American Samoa",#: ca 1830s
"Midway",#(1867)
"Honolulu",#: ca 1898 (Hawaii was annexed as a territory in 1898, although was arguably influenced/claimed by America earlier).
"Anchorage",#: ca 1914
"Unalaska",#(1933)
"Saipan",#(1986)
"Fort Amador",#(Panama)





Please, from now on, make the updates directly on this list (so that we have a single version), and keep the syntax
"......",
or
"......", #comment
or
#".......", #comment if the city is excluded

Maybe we should create a wiki so that this can continuously be improved without creating loads of individual comments? I'd be very happy to quickly set one up.

we need just a page on the RFC wiki then

There are many cities that are present in more than one list: Gaza, Lyon, Carthage, Constantinopolis, Harar, Algiers and maybe more.

we need just a page on the RFC wiki then

This is a good idea.

Okay, I've created a new page on the Wiki: http://wikirhye.wikidot.com/rfc-rand-suggested-city-lists

Nice, but I can't make edits. :(

From what I understand whenever someone is editing a page they get temporary exclusive rights to edit it. So perhaps someone was editing it already.

Obviously you have to create an account on the wiki first as well.

There are many cities that are present in more than one list: Gaza, Lyon, Carthage, Constantinopolis, Harar, Algiers and maybe more.
Note that any city preceded by a # is excluded, so technically isn't there. For example, Nova Roma/Constantinopolis is not actually in the list, but Istanbul is. Same for Boston, Philly on English and American lists. I thought the exact same thing and was about to post when I noticed it.

Dutch

1) Non-costal homeland
Utrecht
Arnhem
's-Hertogenbosch
Leeuwarden
Leiden
Maastricht
Nijmegen
Delft
Alkmaar
Groningen
Breda
Dordrecht
Apeldoorn
Zwolle

2) costal homeland
Amsterdam
Rotterdam
Den Haag (=The Hague)
Haarlem
Den Helder (Historical important)
Den Briel (Historical important)
Veere (Historical important)
Middelburg (Historical important, VOC HQ, currently non costal)
IJmuiden
Vlissingen
Terneuzen
Delfzijl


As I am Dutch, I feel the urge to comment on the above list. Haarlem is not coastal. I agree with most of Sadomacho's list (colonial ones are fine), but I have made a revised one for the first 2 sets:

1) Non-coastal homeland

Utrecht
Nijmegen
Maastricht
Delft
Leiden
Haarlem
's-Hertogenbosch
Deventer
Groningen
Leeuwarden
Breda
Eindhoven
Gouda
Alkmaar
Tilburg

2) Coastal homeland

Amsterdam
Rotterdam
Den Haag (=The Hague)
Den Helder (Historical important)
Den Briel (Historical important)
Veere (Historical important)
Middelburg (Historical important, VOC HQ, currently non coastal)
IJmuiden
Vlissingen
Terneuzen
Delfzijl

I added a Maya list to the wiki yesterday, if anyone would like to comment on it. I know Rhye has it set up from earliest to latest spawn, but I have the Mayan list at the bottom. This is so people can check my accuracy without losing themselves trying to find it amongst the Ethiopians/Vikings...

some additions and remarks:

GER

Category One

"Berlin", #(1157)(Capital)
"Wien", #(200 B.C.)
"München", #(1158)
"Prag" # cz: "Praha" , again added, i know this could lead to controversies, but it´s also the second city in the HRE list of BTS and one of the importants town in the HRE, and the capital of bohemia, the perhaps strongest kingdom in the early times of the HRE, also having kings of bohemia emperors of the HRE (eg. Charles IV) and also later a important part of the Habsburg Monarchy, almost becoming the third crown of the habsburger, if not included i would also vote for removing all now polish cities like Danzig, Ellbing, Breslau and the slovak capital Pressburg (Bratislava)
"Frankfurt", #(794) there are two frankfurts in germany, one called "Frankfurt am Main" the second called "Frankfurt an der Oder", the first is the historic more important (imo)
"Aachen" # (765) (HRE)
"Köln",
"Salzburg", #(700's)
"Trier" #(16 BC) (considered as olderst german town)
"Dortmund", #(880)
"Stuttgart", #(950)
"Leipzig", #(1015)
"Nürnburg", #(1050)
"Düsseldorf", #(1135)
"Hannover", #(1200's)
"Dresden", #(1206)
"Essen", #(700's)
# "Warschau", #(1000's), no idea why the polish capital should be german :confused:
"Breslau", #(1000's), comment, see Prag
"Pressburg", #(1000's), comment, see Prag
"Magdeburg",
"Würzburg",
"Ulm",
"Karlsruhe",
"Halle",
"Potsdam",
"Luxemburg",
"Schwerin",
"Goslar",
"Wittenberg", #officially "Lutherstadt Wittenberg"


Category Two

"Bremen", #(150)
"Hamburg", #(808)
"Königsberg", #(1255)(Prussian Capital)(now Kaliningrad, Russia)
"Lübeck", #(700)
"Danzig", #(980), comment, see Prag
"Ellbing", #(890)(now Poland: Elblag), comment, see Prag
"Rostock", #(1000's)
"Oldenburg", #(1108)(low german: Ollnburg)
"Stralsund", #(1168)
"Greifswald", #(1199) fixed typo (ie -> ei)
"Kiel", #(1233)
"Wismar",# (1000)
"Wilhelmshaven", #(1869)


Category Three

"Otjimbingwe", #(1849)
"Weidmannsheil", #(1850)
"Wituland", #(1858)
"Lüderitzbucht", #(1883)
"Yaounde", #(1888)
"Bujumbura", #(1889)
"Kigali", #(1907)
"Bismarckburg",

Category Four

"Klein Venedig", #(1529
"Groß Friedrichsburg", #(1683)
"Krabbeninsel", #(1689)
"Tertholen", #(1696)
"Bagamoyo", #(1700's)
"Sebeib", #(1884)
"Kaiser-Wilhelmsland", #(1884)
"Marshallinseln", #(1885)
"Swakopmund", #(1892)
"Helgoland", the only island not in immediate vicinity to the mainland (formerly Danish and British), therefore called germanies only "high see" island
"Theresa", # Austrian Colony, one of the Nicobar islands

Added more Greek cities in the wiki, if anyone has suggestions...

Edit: I also added Persia and some Ottoman cities (especially in cats 3 and 4, some may be debated).

Obviously you have to create an account on the wiki first as well.

I can't succeed in creating a wikidot account: it says "The email can not be sent to this address" - I tried three different addresses, checking they were properly working. Is there any trick I didn't get? :confused:

Well, I'll try again tomorrow. Otherwise I'll have to post the additions to the Roman list in this thread.

That's weird. Well if it still doesn't work tomorrow just post here and I'll add it to the wiki on your behalf.

I added Fierabras' Dutch changes and The_Coyote's German changes to the wiki: http://wikirhye.wikidot.com/rfc-rand-suggested-city-lists

Thanks for adding, lumpthing. Could you please make one more change?

Den Haag should be it's original founding name 's-Gravenhage. Although most people know it as The Hague (Den Haag) today, I think it fits better with the naming convention Rhye is using. Secondly, 's-Gravenhage (= the count's hedge) is more consistent with 's-Hertogenbosch (= the duke's forest), which is also known as Den Bosch.

I put it in the notes on the wiki. I also added a note about Den Bosch.

double post

I took the liberty of implementing the Haag/Gravenhage switch Fierabras recommended and including the full rationale in the notes.

Updated the Chinese city list. Taiyuan should be added (very ancient and several emperors came from that city). Also Taiwan is a good source of non home-continental cities.

Just to let you guys know, I really think Trabzon(Trebizond) is needed for the Turkish list and should be left off the Greek list considering it's part of the Turkish heartland. Shouldn't Shiraz be on the Persian list as well? Algiers should also be removed from the Turkish list as it was founded by the Arabians and represents the Moors who I consider to be more Arabian than Turkish. I also think Singapore should be added to the Khmer list.

Also I think Singapore should be added to the Khmer list.

I can't succeed in creating a wikidot account: it says "The email can not be sent to this address".

Ok, now I have a wikidot account, and in the next days I'll update the Roman list.
I was thinking of putting the Sicilian and Sardinian cities as extra-continental: they are totally Italian, but the Romans considered them provinces, not a core part of the empire. Opinions?

As far as I know, the Khmer had nothing to do with Singapore. Correct me if I am wrong here.

I would say it should be English, if anything. I know it had a history before the British, but not with any civ in the game [I don't know if the Dutch or Portuguese had anything to do with Singapore, but it wasn't as important as the British].

Trebizond is on both and should probably be removed from the Greek.

Algiers is currently on both the Carthage and Turkish lists. I agree it shouldn't be Turkish, but whether it should be Carthaginian or Arab, I don't really know, but would likely pick Carthage.

Shiraz agreed, unless it is already there under a different name.

Ok, now I have a wikidot account, and in the next days I'll update the Roman list.
I was thinking of putting the Sicilian and Sardinian cities as extra-continental: they are totally Italian, but the Romans considered them provinces, not a core part of the empire. Opinions?

Once again I'm conscious I'm not Italian, but I would say don't. Your reasoning is sound, but there are already a tonne of cities for the extra-continental list from the non-Italian provinces (I could fill it up with cities from Britain alone).

I kinda agree with Umarth here as well, the Roman Empire was so large I'm pretty sure we should have enough cities from other areas of the empire. Of course you could add them as part of the core empire which is what I'd do if I were you.

@Say 1988

Singapura is almost always part of the Khmer Empire in my games and is much more Khmer than British in my opinion because it was founded by a southeast asian people similar to the Khmer, not the British, remember it has to be founded by the civ in order for it to be on the list. I think we should leave this for Rhye to decide but remember, Singapura is almost always Khmer in RFC and I've never it seen it being British ever in RFC. Remember RFC gameplay can affect these lists as well.

remember it has to be founded by the civ in order for it to be on the list.
Nope. There are plenty of cities founded by other civs. London, Boston, Istanbul, Paris, Kiev, just to name a few.

It is not about who controls in in RFC, this discussion is about history. From my knowledge Singapore was founded by southeast Asian people, but not the Khmer. It was ruled by Malays, until European control.
It was the primary British possession in south-east Asia and was hugely important trading post and military base.

A big question is about barb and independent cities spawning. It could also be one of those, but I would put it as British.

@Say 1988

Yes I understand your point but the general idea is to have the city founded by the civ that it was historically founded by and of course there will be exceptions. As for who controls it in RFC, yes it does matter, remember in the initial post Rhye was going to send people RFC settler maps, this proves my point. I do understand that Singapore was an important outpost for the British but if we give it to them than we might as well give all the French colonies in Indochina to the French which would be wrong, because France didn't found them. Also, remember that we don't want rampant exceptions and that the Malays are much more like the Khmer than the British. England has enough other overseas that we can use anyway.

I would like to suggest that Jeddah (either Ǧiddah in Latinized Arabic or Jeddah as is now used on official Saudi maps) be added to the list of the Arabian continental coastal cities, if not being made the first one. The city of Jeddah is the main point of arrival for pilgrims to Mecca and has been a major Red Sea port throughout its history since the founding of the port in 647. It is also now the second-largest city in Saudi Arabia behind Riyadh and is considered the commercial capital of Saudi Arabia.

EDIT: Also, are there any lists that haven't been done or need adding to? I'd be glad to help with this and am greatly looking forward to the mod!

Keep in mind that the Arabs aren't Saudi Arabia. That would be included, but they encompass the various Arab caliphates, and other states.
I don't know for sure, but I believe Riyadh was not a particularly important city until fairly recently. Jeddah, I have only heard of and know nothing about.

Keep in mind that the Arabs aren't Saudi Arabia. That would be included, but they encompass the various Arab caliphates, and other states.
I don't know for sure, but I believe Riyadh was not a particularly important city until fairly recently. Jeddah, I have only heard of and know nothing about.I do realize that the Arabs aren't just Saudi Arabia, but Jeddah has been important throughout its history as one of, if not the, major Red Sea port on the Arabian Peninsula. It probably isn't well known because Islamic history isn't covered very well in the western education system.

Also, I found Riyadh in the city list and if Riyadh is in there, then Jeddah should be too.

I added Algiers to the Turks - I can remove it. Done

Singapore was never Khmer. At the same time, some of the Vietnamese cities (in French Indochina) were - Saigon/Ho Chi Minh City/ Prey Nokor being the most obvious example (the Vietnamese still call the city Prey Nokor, 250 years after they lost it).

Shiraz is the Persian Sirajis - I realized that when I did the list. Since Rhye evidently already knew this (from the game), I decided not to add it to the wiki. If you want, I will add it. Done - Note: Sirajis isn't actually a port, so it's in Category 1.

Since some of the civs didn't have a list, I did lists for all that had been left out (finished with Persians and Aztecs, Greeks as well; added some Turkish names, especially for Categories 3 and 4). Wilcoxchar, you can always add to the lists if you want; just take a look at them. I'll add Jeddah to the Arabic list if it's missing. Done

Also: added Saida (Sidon) to the Arab list. I don't believe it's on any other ones right now... Tyre, Acre (Akko), and Byblos can also be used, but whether Persian, Arabic, Turkish - I don't know.

I believe that if Tyre, Byblos and Sidon have to be assigned, they should be in Carthage, category 4

Just to let you guys know, I really think Trabzon(Trebizond) is needed for the Turkish list and should be left off the Greek list considering it's part of the Turkish heartland.

I went ahead and commented it out of the Greek list.

:)Here are the German city names.:king:

Category One

1.Berlin(1157)(Capital)
2.Wien(200 B.C.)
3.Essen(700's)
4.Salzburg(700's)
5.Frankfurt(794)
6.Dortmund(880)
7.Stuttgart(950)
8.Prague(900's)Prag
9.Warschau(1000's)
10.Breslau(1000's)
11.Leipzig(1015)
12.Pressburg(1000's)
13.Nurnburg(1050)(Note:Two dots over the u!)Nürnberg
14.Dusseldorf(1135)(Note:Two dots over the u!)Düsseldorf
15.Munchen(1158)(Note:Two dots over the u!)München
16.Hannover(1200's)
17.Dresden(1206)


Category Two

1.Bremen(150)
2.Hamborg(808)Hamburg
3.Konigsberg(1255)(Note:Two dots over the u!)(Prussian Capital)Königsberg
4.Danzig(980)
5.Lubeck(700)(Note:Two dots over the u!)Lübeck
6.Ellbing(890)
7.Rostock(1000's)
8.Ollnburg(Oldenburg)(1108)Oldenburg
9.Stralsund(1168)
10.Griefswald(1199)Greifswald
11.Kiel(1233)
12.Bremerhaven(1200's)
13.Wilhelmshaven(1869)

Constructive Criticism welcome.:)

Categories 3+4 coming soon!

Here are category 3+4 of the German city list.

Category Three

1.Otjimbingwe(1849)
2.Weidmannsheil(1850)
3.Wituland(1858)
4.Luderitzbucht(1883))(Note:Two dots over the u!)Lüderitzbucht
5.Windhoek(1885)
.............,
6.Yaounde(1888)
7.Bujumbura(1889)
8.Kigali(1907)
9.Bismarckburg(?)

Category Four

1.Klein Venedig(1529)
2.Grof Friedrichsburg(1683)Graf Friedrichsburg
3.Krabbeninsel(1689)
4.Tertholen(1696)
5.Bagamoyo(1700's)
6.Dar es Salaam(1859)
7.Sebeib(1884)
8.Kaiser-Wilhelmsland(1884)
9.Marshallinseln(1885)Marschallinseln
10.Swakopmund(1892)



Constructive Criticism welcome.:D
Additions:
C1:
Köln
Kassel
Klausenburg
Mainz

C2:
Trieste

C3:
Kleindeutschland
Colonia Dignidad
Kongo

C4:
Neu Schwabenland
Neu Braunfels

Hey Rhye and co.

Just wanted to stop in and say that this looks incredibly awesome. Can't wait to try it out. Sorry I haven't been able to keep up with stuff before, but I haven't been able to access the civfanatics website for a few months until about the past week.

Cheers :D

Additions:
C1:
Köln
Kassel
Klausenburg
Mainz

C2:
Trieste

C3:
Kleindeutschland
Colonia Dignidad
Kongo

C4:
Neu Schwabenland
Neu Braunfels

Out of interest, whereabouts was/is Kongo?

Kongo is in west central Africa, but was ruled by the Portuguese not the Germans. Briefly the Dutch invaded in the 17th (I think) century.

Not sure what the German connection is.

Alright, I've imported the list into the game, done some changes and converted the format in the final python one.
I also replaced stressed letters with "&#XXX;" combinations (as in the character map).
If you make some change, please write in this thread what you have done, so that I know and I will update the mod itself.



Hey Rhye and co.

Just wanted to stop in and say that this looks incredibly awesome. Can't wait to try it out. Sorry I haven't been able to keep up with stuff before, but I haven't been able to access the civfanatics website for a few months until about the past week.

Cheers :D

Great to see you again, check the other previews

are their anymore civs city names u need?

Are the lists on the Wiki the finalized lists?

http://wikirhye.wikidot.com/rfc-rand-suggested-city-lists

I've just updated the wiki. That's the currently updated one. If you make some changes, report them here as well