i just had a game with Huayna Capac (Inca) at Emperor difficulty, small fractal map
he starts with Agriculture and Mysticism, so basically the usual mining>bronze working>chop for settler would take longer than usual

the usual strategy (mining>BW>Masonary>pyramid) is indeed effective, but i had always the problem, at late game, i usually dont have enough religions for my cathedrals (mostly only 2, if im lucky i get 3)
the other problem is, this strategy needs stone!, and possibly marble as well
i had only marble, so pyramid become impossible to build
http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/6552/civ4screenshot0000ok0.jpg
in small map, it is extremely difficult to build more than 4 cities, unless you warmonger since the beginning

so i tried new strategy, yes early religion! :lol:
polytheism>priesthood>oracle>CoL
i didnt research BW, i traded it with AI instead!!
lightbulb theology, and research philosophy, so i got 4 religions on my own
my both neighbours had buddhism, but they didnt spread it to me, even with open border
anyway, i tried to build pyramid, but failed (so it got converted to gold, but bleh, nvm so what...extra money is always good for research)

these 4 religions + Shwedagon Paya have similar effect as representation
with monasteries, they can boost research even more

the only huge drawback, not being able to have pyramid is that i had to tech to democracy, which is a huge burden (constitution and democracy took me like 30 turns)
with the pyramid, one can start to put 90-100% culture after having liberalism, printing press, and nationalism (and trading banking with AI)

the positive side is, i had 4 religions, and i can build more cathedrals
the overall culture/turn is definitely more than the pyramid method
but pyramid method allows you to stop teching earlier, and most likely also allow to buy temple/cathedrals/banks 30 turn earlier

anyway, if you want to play the map:

I never thought the Pyramids had much to do with a cultural Victory. Now, the Sistine Chapel, on the other hand . . . :)

Why didn't you chop it, you had a lot of forests.

The deity cultural victory guide states needing pyramids to gold rush cathedrals at the end.

Why didn't you chop it, you had a lot of forests.

The deity cultural victory guide states needing pyramids to gold rush cathedrals at the end.

i told you, because huayna starts with mysticism and agriculture, so it would take more than 20+ turns to get BW, which means my worker will idle for 10 turns (plain hills city produces worker after 12 turns)
by the time i traded BW with AI, i already didnt need need chopping
i had also plain hill city, marble and cow, so my settler/worker production was pretty fast

there is no way i can build pyramid in this map, because there is no stone nearby

the main idea of this strategy is
1. to use religions + Shwedagon Paya to obtain representation effect, eventually greater effect
2. to found more religions, mainly the early religions, so you are less dependant on AI

the drawback is as i said, you need 30 turns more to tech representation>democracy
30 turns of 600-700 culture/turn is a lot!
but basically the happiness/research boost from religions+Shwedagon Paya+CE is superior to that from representation (pyramid)+SE
so it is possible to reach liberalism/PP/nationalism sooner to compensate the extra 20-30 turns to tech to democracy

I never thought the Pyramids had much to do with a cultural Victory. Now, the Sistine Chapel, on the other hand . . . :)

pyramid is extremely important, to save all the turns to tech democracy
with around 600-700 culture/turn, 20 turns mean 12000-14000 culture
that is huge!!

if you're trading for bronze working, you could either have gotten it sometime before alphabet. or, if you had teched it, you could have spent the extra worker turns making that farm or making a mine.

if you're trading for bronze working, you could either have gotten it sometime before alphabet. or, if you had teched it, you could have spent the extra worker turns making that farm or making a mine.

if i tech to it like usual strategy, i'd lose hindhuism, and possibly lose the race to oracle, therefore losing CoL
probably will lose Theology as well, because GP came too late
so i would have the same problem like i always had (too few religion for cathedrals, because AI dont spread)


it is pointless to get BW short before alphabet
because by the time you get alphabet, you can trade BW with AI

in small map, it is extremely difficult to build more than 4 cities, unless you warmonger since the beginning

Looks like every single AI did it just fine.

Looks like every single AI did it just fine.

yeah, but too bad we are not AI
at emperor difficulty, AI starts with a worker and archers
they also research a lot faster

yeah, but too bad we are not AI
I'm pretty happy I don't play as bad as the AI. Honestly, on emperor you can get your settlers out very fast, without needing those bonuses.

at emperor difficulty, AI starts with a worker and archers
they also research a lot faster
You forgot the production bonuses and the diplo modifiers ;)

Looks like every single AI did it just fine.

looks like the AI knows a little more than him about city placement. I could have done much better than him with that map. He currently could easily had 3 cities with his current land and cultural border.

It snot necessary to have glorious sites to build cities. And its totally fine if cities overlap a little. Playing online would teach you that...

BTW, i have built Pyramids without stone many times...

yeah, but too bad we are not AI
at emperor difficulty, AI starts with a worker and archers
they also research a lot faster

Yup, they certainly do.

Jesus, that Hammurabi, cutting me off from everything. How could he?

http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/149/civ4screenshot0004uv5.jpg

So where did it all go wrong in your game?

I have two religions, one founded by me. Stonehenge and Parthenon in Cuzco, and will get GL. Will also get SoZ in Tawanaku. Haven't decided on third cultural city, unfortunately. I probably won't play this out because it's just there to prove a point. And cultural victories are boring. So if I do play it, likely dom or space. Next move might be to tech to construction for beating Hammurabi up. But really need Iron Working first.

Why didn't you Just make a wonderspam city? Pretty much most of the wonders, including the Aestjetic wonders give great artist points.

http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/peaceful_deity_cultural.php

uhm, by the way, i dont see the point having many cities , but too few religions
having 4 cities with 4 religions result more culture than having 6 cities with 2 religions

that was actually always my problem if i play mansa/lizzy or any civ with mining>BW>pottery>writing>alphabet
i got too few religions, and AI dont share

this was actually only to prove the point that:
1. you dont always need stone/pyramid
2. there is also alternative to mining>BW path

i got 3 legendary culture a bit late, in this game at 1852 AD
the main problem was teching to democracy
i got liberalism+nationalism+PP around 1000 AD, but then i need another 30 turns to tech to democracy :(
with the usual pyramid startegy, no need for democracy, 3 legendary can be achieved before 1800 AD easily

http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/9244/civ4screenshot0001vu2.jpg
4 cities only but with around 700 culture/turn

im not sure if this religion strategy works on immortal/deity, so ill play some more games later




@Quotey: how do you fund all those cities?
no currency and no cottages
so many cities, and no fund, most likely it will be hard to win the race the liberalism
this is about cultural strategy, i see you are probably warmongering

I don't know how o play culturally, actually. Can you please see how you can do from one of my saves? I did win the Lib race, and I probably could have got Constitution with a bit of luck.

How did I fund them? No idea. The two golds helped a lot, and my Ollantaytambo was at size 1 for centuries.

I think this'll be good. So, could you look at the saves and say what you think the third city should be? And how to set it up for culture (eg lots of whipping, I'm not actaully in slavery yet)

@harusame

I'm surprised that you consider the Pyramids route to be the "usual strategy" for cultural victories. ;)

I've found the SH + Oracle religion method you describe works very well at Emperor and can work at Immortal too (Default settings). In one Immortal game I was isolated (playing Inca). I decided to play for cultural victory, so obviously had to found the religions for myself. Founded Confucianism via Oracle, bulbed Theology with GP, researched Philosophy, and for good measure bulbed Divine Right. With the AP, UoS, and SM combined with all my religious buildings, the economy was thriving to the point that I was able to maintain tech parity with the AI, without any available trades. I even had stone available, but still neglected to build the Pyramids. ;)

I agree with the advantage of religions for cultural victory. The great thing about a few religions plus capital and a couple of cottage spammed cities, is that you can play the game "normally" and just flip into culture mode when convenient. Sometimes I decide on going for a culture win very late in the game, simply because it is quicker than shooting for space. With religions + corporations + Broadway/RocknRoll, it is practical to generate 1500+ culture per turn. Add a late NP Great Artist farm, and the wait for victory can be reduced to a couple of dozen turns or so. This feels safer to me, than when I switch off research very early, and watch the AI surge well ahead in the tech tree.

if i tech to it like usual strategy, i'd lose hindhuism, and possibly lose the race to oracle, therefore losing CoL
probably will lose Theology as well, because GP came too late
so i would have the same problem like i always had (too few religion for cathedrals, because AI dont spread)


You went for Hinduism? I think this is a dubious strategy at higher levels, it is a risky gambit, and even if you pull it off, your workers will be missing very important development techs. Also, there is a real danger that if you horde the early religions, the AI's could end up liking one another, which makes you a more likely target for their aggression.

BTW, AI religions won't spread (without the aid of a missionary) to cities that already have religion. So in a sense, the more religions you found, the less likely it is you will get a freebie.

i told you, because huayna starts with mysticism and agriculture, so it would take more than 20+ turns to get BW, which means my worker will idle for 10 turns (plain hills city produces worker after 12 turns)
by the time i traded BW with AI, i already didnt need need chopping
i had also plain hill city, marble and cow, so my settler/worker production was pretty fast


I'm not sure I follow this?

Looking at the picture of your capital, I would have gone mining-BW at the start. At normal speed, your worker would have been completed in 12 turns, it would take 5 turns to farm the corn (HC starts with agriculture), 5 turns to move on the hill and mine the iron, and one turn to move onto a forest. So that's 23 turns. From memory, mining+BW & Emperor would take 23 turns to research, thus timing your first chop perfectly. :)

Personally, I would have chopped/mined like a maniac from the start with a city like that. :p

the only huge drawback, not being able to have pyramid is that i had to tech to democracy, which is a huge burden (constitution and democracy took me like 30 turns)
Why do you need to tech democracy? It's perfectly reasonable to finish off a cultural game without all the cathedrals built. Furthermore, all of your cities have the potential for a decent amount of production (at least three hills), so they were all capable of actually building everything old-fashioned way, if you had actually improved them.


I am a little bothered you never made an artist city, though; you could have put a city one North of that rice near the capital, and have it do nothing but work 3-5 artists full-time. (If you had built it early, you could have made a lighthouse, and possibly even built the national epic there)

(Oh wait, I see now your later screenshot. You did have it running artists, right? Why is it size 12?)

@The Rook: well, i was refering, "usual strategy" because i usually play (and i think many people do), they used to build pyramid, so they dont have to tech to democracy
(look at godonuts cultural victory guide)
they dont found religion, but wait for AI until they spread their religions
yeah i was gambling, since huayna starts with mysticism and small map has only 4 rivals
so, i assumed, ok now i go for polytheism :), if i lose nvm, then id go for fast priesthood>oracle>CoL
in bigger map, i think i will not able to pull it off

@MyOtherName
no, i needed those cathedrals
even with those hills, i had trouble building cathedrals without universal suffrage
it took me 10 turns to finish up a taoist pagoda, 22 turn to finish up a hindu mandir!!
i would rather tech 30 turns more to finish them up in 2-3 turns each

actually, i made some mistake at mid-game
first, i should not build TGL, since at the end of game, i had too many GS (so i just used them for Golden age)
second, i decided very late, which city i should make a GA farm :(
lateron i decided for tiwanuku (i build NE there), but the city has been cottaged...and it doesnt have enough food to support cottage+specialist
so at the end of them game, i had 3 commerce cities to reach legendary culture
usually, 1 GA farm + 2 commerce cities are way better