they seem really really useless cept for galley which in some occasions can be important but what im really asking is if anyone ever use them for war?

With the arrival of 3.17 I built my first trieme to fight those barbarian galleys (which spawn quite often now). If your capital has seafood, you need atleast one of them to defend it against raiding galleys. I also use galleys very often to settle the small islands nearby (map permitting of course). But I agree, it's quite hard to wage war with them, but if the map allows it, why not? I mean, they stay for a long long time, unless you beeline for astronomy...

I do sometimes, but it depends on the map top. If I'm playing archipelago or the like, I will. Otherwise, I tend to wait until caravels.

hmmm... well, as Fabien said the most useful thing for galleys and tiremes is fighting barb galleys i think. galleys are mostly for transport units, and tiremes come a bit late imo. then i usually build very few of them. but maybe now with the new patch they will gain importance agains barbs.

i don't know why they removed the option we had in last Civ games, to send galleys to the sea in adventurous moves... most often they will sink, but sometimes with a lot of luck they will survive and discover new lands :)

Triremes are useful in early wars. If you want to inflict total war on your enemies you can build a stack of em and blockade enemy coastal cities, quickly stunting their growth.

Meh... I usually don't start building a navy until ocean-going ironclads (Wolf-mod-time)... I will rush Optics to get Caravels and send two caravels in opposite directions to get the naval bonus though (comes in handy later), and if I spot a juicy open continent I will use Galleons... but militarily speaking, I usually don't try for foreign wars until the industrial age, because waging a war on a distant continent with galleys or galleons is usually more trouble then it's worth.

To answer the original question? No... it's a rare day if I ever build a Galley or Trireme.

I use them, but I play exclusively in marathon mode. They have a longer useful life in marathon (as do all unit types). Though, even in marathon, triemes come a bit late to be useful for long. It might be better if triemes came earlier in the tech tree, perhaps at the same time as galleys.

I use them to gaurd my sea-food resources...They wont stop a determined enemy, but at least they will keep your sea-food resources safe for a bit

With the arrival of 3.17 I built my first trieme to fight those barbarian galleys (which spawn quite often now). If your capital has seafood, you need atleast one of them to defend it against raiding galleys. I also use galleys very often to settle the small islands nearby (map permitting of course). But I agree, it's quite hard to wage war with them, but if the map allows it, why not? I mean, they stay for a long long time, unless you beeline for astronomy...

Yep. Barb Galleys will pillage your seafood tiles, so you need a Trireme to defend them. Plus Triremes beat Galleys most of the time, and you can get them up to 10 XP before upgrading. :)

I had a map that looked something like this:

A
__/
/ _____
| /
\__________/ C
To move units from my (C)apital to (A)nother city by road would take 4-7 turns (1-2MV units). As opposed to 1 turn with 3 Galleys, 2 turns with 2 galleys, and 1 Turn when they were upgraded to Galleons (2 Galleons).

I usually have a few tiremes, but I find them one of the least useful units you can build, I tend to build more of them when I'm getting close to Frigates, so I can buy the upgrade.

I believe early ship stats would balance much better as:
3 :strength: Tireme : +50% vs Galley, Galleon
3 :strength: Galley
3 :strength: Caravel : +25% vs Tireme
4 :strength: Galleon

Once Caravels or Galleons hit the scene Tiremes become nearly useless.

Once Caravels or Galleons hit the scene Tiremes become nearly useless.

Yes, but I think that's intentional and should be expected. All older units become useless when they're replaced by the next upgrade.

The game stages for ships are roughly:
Galley/trieme
Galleon/frigate
Transport/destroyer

I think the only (minor) issue with triemes is they usually can't be built until just before galleons, so their usefulness isn't very long. But I suppose that depends on whether or not you bee-line for them.

Except Galleon's can't upgrade to a Frigate, only a Tireme/Caravel can.
So if you build Galleon's for "war" - you wind up having to build a buttload more units when you can get Frigates.

I will only use galleons for war until I get frigates. Then I'll just use them for shipping. There's no waste in doing that. Galleons stay useful for a long time, because transports are a long way away.

My only gripe with naval warfare is that there is single unit type missing between frigates and destroyers. Something with a strength around 12. Ship-of-the-line would be more useful if it simply had a base strength of 12, and remove the bonus over frigates. Then, it could at least compete with destroyers if needed.

Yes, but I think that's intentional and should be expected. All older units become useless when they're replaced by the next upgrade.

The game stages for ships are roughly:
Galley/trieme
Galleon/frigate
Transport/destroyer

I think the only (minor) issue with triemes is they usually can't be built until just before galleons, so their usefulness isn't very long. But I suppose that depends on whether or not you bee-line for them.

beeline metal casting makes no sense in the early game when there are more crucial techs to develop. metal casting is too costly. the only way to get it so early is hitting the jackpot in a goody hut

galleys come early and cheap with sailing, i think tiremes should follow soon. maybe sailing+bronze working or sailing+iron working at much. and to make them not so overpowered they could be 3:strength: +25 vs galley

@ Mynystry
Exactly, though I'd throw in the Caravel's +25% vs Tireme :-)
Those numbers appear to pan out better.

My only gripe with naval warfare is that there is single unit type missing between frigates and destroyers. Something with a strength around 12.


you mean an iron clad (yes its not sea going, but it is what you want)

Sorry... ignore what I said before. I don't know what I was thinking.

I mean the missing unit is between ironclad and destroyer (not frigate and destroyer). Something around strength 18.

Most unit upgrade paths have the improved unit about 50% stronger than the old unit. But we're missing that "50% stronger" unit after ironclad. Instead, it goes 150% stronger from ironclad to destroyer.

Right now, we have:
galley 2
caravelle 3
galleon 4
frigate 6
ship-of-the-line 6 + 50% bonus
ironclad 12
destroyer 30
battleship 40

It all moves along smoothly, except for the missing link between ironclad and destroyer.

If ship-of-the-line was modded to be strength 18 (with no bonus), it makes for a smoother upgrade path. You could then use it to fend off destroyers, if necessary.

I think just the one link is missing.

Well actually for between ironclad and Destroyer,
some early coal powered battleship might be good

However Combustion only needs 3 techs more than an Iron clad (Railroad, Combustion, Scientific Method.. for the Oil)

so any new ship would be Very close, perhaps Physics and Railroad... str 20 move 3, ocean going requires coal cost 150?

It would more be a oil free naval alternative.. if you are without land based oil, build theseto defend your galleons while you go Get Oil (or defend your coasts while you research Fission/Plastics for other ways of getting destroyers)

Well actually for between ironclad and Destroyer,
some early coal powered battleship might be good

However Combustion only needs 3 techs more than an Iron clad (Railroad, Combustion, Scientific Method.. for the Oil)

so any new ship would be Very close, perhaps Physics and Railroad... str 20 move 3, ocean going requires coal cost 150?

It would more be a oil free naval alternative.. if you are without land based oil, build theseto defend your galleons while you go Get Oil (or defend your coasts while you research Fission/Plastics for other ways of getting destroyers)
It's simply amazing how many times this exact same discussion always crops-up... and it's already taken care of!

Give the Wolfshanze Mod a try in my sig-line... for anyone that has actually played it, I have heard no complaints about the naval progression and only appreciation for this aspect and how it's implemented... the ages have plenty of time and well proportioned units (due in-part to the "Age" break-down). Fixing the naval aspects (or rather lack-there-of) has always been the primary focus of the mod.

Naval Unit Changes/Ages/New Units:
After Frigates, Ships of the Line and Galleons (Age of Sail):

Age of Steam:
Ironclad Gunboat (12/2... coastal only) - Coal - [Military Science & Steam Power]
Ironclad Cruiser (15/4... ocean going) - Coal - [Steel & Steam Power]
Ironclad Battleship (18/3... ocean going) - Coal - [Steel & Steam Power]
Paddle Steamer (10/4 - 4 cargo capacity) - Coal - [Steam Power]

Pre-Dreadnought Age:
Protected Cruiser (22/5) - Coal - [Combustion & Rifling]
Pre-Dreadnought (26/4) - Coal - [Combustion & Rifling]

Dreadnought Age:
Destroyer Escort (26/6) - Coal/Oil - [Assembly Line, Combustion, Artillery & Physics]
Dreadnought (38/5)* - Coal/Oil - [Assembly Line, Combustion, Artillery & Physics]

Modern Age:
Destroyer (30/8) - Oil - [Industrialism, Combustion & Artillery]
Heavy Cruiser (34/7)** - Oil - [Industrialism, Combustion & Artillery]
Battleship (42/6)*** - Oil - [Industrialism, Combustion & Artillery]

All Naval Ages starting with Pre-Dreadnoughts get a 20% bonus against any previous ages.
======
*10% Bonus against Destroyer Escorts
**10% Bonus against Destroyers
***10% Bonus against Heavy Cruisers and Destroyers

The * bonuses are cumulative with "vs Age" bonuses... so a Modern Battleship would get a 30% bonus when matched against a Dreadnought Age Destroyer Escort.

see that I would see as too many units... did you add a naval unit with Astronomy and Gunpowder, one with Optics and Engineering, one with Optics and Banking, one with Optics and Education, one with Sailing and Bronze Working, one with Sailing and Iron Working, one with Compass and Machinery

Now that is the focus of your mod (and people who play your mod would like that)... but I think there is probably enough as it is

Yeah, Wolf's mod just has way too many units to "fill in the gap". I don't want a lot of useless units. I just want a single, useful unit, to fill in the gap between ironclad and destroyer. No other zillion modifications.

I could do it myself, by changing ship-of-the-line. I was hoping the official 3.17 patch might do something to address it. But I suppose it's an intentional gap, to make oil or uranium really, really important.

Yeah, Wolf's mod just has way too many units to "fill in the gap". I don't want a lot of useless units. I just want a single, useful unit, to fill in the gap between ironclad and destroyer. No other zillion modifications.
Yeah, you keep saying that (you've certainly tooted that before)... but you haven't played it, and your "too many units" excuse could be applied to just about every unit in the game (Knights, Cuirassiers, Cavalry, whatever, you name it). Simply put, if you don't like the unit, don't build the unit.

"too many units"? Hmmm... let's get rid of all the "too many" land units too. I can quote countless land units that have closer function and strength points, and all come closer on the tech tree to one another then any of my own naval additions. Each of my naval ages trumps those behind it with significant increases in combat odds, and they are much further spaced on the tech tree when playing the game then you seem to think, and certainly more so then a lot of ground units in the game that all seem to jump in ability by 2 or 3 strength points on average from one unit to the next.

Let's just face the facts... I can point to more statistically similar, functionally similar, combat-odds closer related units in the tech-line of default Civ4 then you can with the ships in my mod... plus you haven't played it because you closed your eyes and plugged your ears when I listed what I did with it. I haven't heard any complaints about my implementation of the ships from those that have actually taken the time to PLAY the mod... in fact, that's where my biggest congrats come from... exactly how and what I added ship-wise to the mod.

The true test comes from those that have actually played the mod, not simply blindly commented on it based on assumptions. I've had scores of people come back and comment how well the naval system is implemented... all the "arguments" I've gotten from the people who say "too many units" all (amazingly enough) come from the people who have never played, and refuse to play the mod... so that's kind of telling in the end. Those that have tried it, all actually enjoy it and appreciate the implementation. Ask anyone who has played my mod with an open mind (not a closed one), and you'll find some happy folks concerning the naval system I implemented. Check my mod thread... scan over the 60 or so pages and see how many people like the naval system vs how many people don't. You'll find your opinion on "too many naval units" is either in the extreme minority, or perhaps all alone in that opinion.

It works... and it works well... it blends into the game nicely... so say the folks that have tried it with an open mind.


I could do it myself, by changing ship-of-the-line. I was hoping the official 3.17 patch might do something to address it. But I suppose it's an intentional gap, to make oil or uranium really, really important.
More likely the HUGE gap is to make Coal absolutely and totally worthless... when it was KING of the Industrial age, it's pretty much pointless now... (except in my mod where Coal is king again!) :D

Now if they (or Wolfschanze) could bring back the 'Greek Fire' Galley or Trireme. :D

see that I would see as too many units... did you add a naval unit with Astronomy and Gunpowder, one with Optics and Engineering, one with Optics and Banking, one with Optics and Education, one with Sailing and Bronze Working, one with Sailing and Iron Working, one with Compass and Machinery

Now that is the focus of your mod (and people who play your mod would like that)... but I think there is probably enough as it is
Why is it too many? What about Spearman (4), Axeman (5), Swordsman (6), Pikeman (6) and Maceman (8) are too many? Maybe it's the Archers (3), Longbowman (6) or Crossbowman (6) that you think are too many? Do you also think Knights (10), Cuirassiers (12) and Cavalry (15) are too many? How about Muskets (9), Grenadiers (12) and Rifleman (14) are too many? Where are you drawing the line on how many units are too many on units that perform similar missions and have similar combat strengths?

So you think the above are all totally okay, and the jump from Frigates (8) and
Ironclads (12) to Destroyers (30) and Battleships (40), can easily be handled by a single unit?

No other unit or class in Civ4 takes such a drastic jump and is only covered by a single unit... Civ4 has been all about incremental jumps, not vast ones. All I added between age of sail and WWII battleships is TWO age-groups... Pre-Dreadnoughts and Dreadnoughts... plus the addition of ocean-going Ironclads.

I think the main problem is that there are so few people who actually know what historically came between frigates and WWII battleships, and that leads to the assumption of "too many units" because not a lot of folks are as familiar with 19th century naval technology as they are with swords, spears, knights and cavalry. It's real funny how folks are perfectly okay with a dozen or more units that fill a 10 point gap, but call six units that fill a 20 point gap "too many"... funny stuff there. Civ4 gradually introduces units over time... ones that are very familiar with folks... yet in something often misunderstood or little-known (naval techs of the 1800s to WWII), Civ4 glosses 100 years of naval technology with nothing at all (but will gladly toss in all kinds of land units into similar age gaps). Folks are okay with steady land progression, but call havoc when the naval aspect gets covered in the same manner?

In a nutshell... on average you're really only going to see about three ships in your build cue at any time with the Wolfshanze Mod... usually one big/slow ship, one small/fast ship, and one transport type... which is really no different then the SotL/Frigate/Galleon or Battleship/Destroyer/Transport concept in default Civ4. Except now the ages will match instead of just being stuck with SotL/Frigate/Galleon for an extra century or more then what they were used, you'll see the 18th century ships in their place... build them if you want to, skip them if you don't care... it's about options, and not seeing Frigates and SotL until the 20th century.

Play it through... then tell me there's too many units... it plays-out well folks... it does.

Wolf, I know you're very defensive about your mod, but try not take offense to critisism. I'm sure it's a good mod for people that want a lot of naval units and would prefer more "realistic" units and tech requirements.

I simply prefer gameplay, over realism. I don't want to introduce a lot of complexity and change the tech requirements around, if it does not add to the gameplay and fun. I want to play a fun game, not a historically accurate simulation.

It would be nice to have a single naval unit to bridge the gap between ironclad and destroyer. I don't really care whether historically coal ruled the seas or not. I want to make sure it fits in with the rest of the game.

Oh, and BTW, your analogy to land units is somewhat flawed. Yes, there are a lot of melee units, but they also give a lot of rock/paper/scissors choices. Spearmen may be almost the same strength as axeman, but one give a bonus against mounted units and the other against melee units. So they serve different purposes, and that adds to gameplay. (Though I do agree the cruissier is unnecessary. Knight 10 to Cavalry 15 is about the right jump, without needing a strength 12 unit.)

I also agree that if they made a 'rock paper scissors' effect on the water it might be good, but... they haven't and I think that is because the navy still isn't that important in regards to overall winning the game... they improved it a bit with blockades, but not enough to make it as important as it was historically.

Part of the problem of that gap really is the nature of the Ironclad, it really is pretty useless except as a seafood defender. Its low speed AND coastal only makes it fairly useless

and its not really the point gap, its the technology gap...Ironclads aren't that far from Destroyers (so its harder to wedge something in) especially as they have the same combat capacities

the problem is Detroyers Are pretty far away (tech wise) from Sotl/Frigates which are thier true predecessor due to the mobility issue.

and its not really the point gap, its the technology gap...Ironclads aren't that far from Destroyers
:shake:
If you knew more about the progression of naval technology, you would not have said that... there's a considerable amount of difference and a lot of naval designs of ships between an Ironclad and a WWII destroyer.

Yeah, Wolf, you're an expert on naval history. We get it.

I think Krik was referring to ironclads not being that far from destroyers IN THE GAME (in terms of tech research).

Remember, it's a game. Some of us just want to play a good game, and we really don't care about exact historical accuracy. Gameplay trumps realism.

Definitely because of the changes to barbs, if you have lots of fogged coast nearby, you need to make triremes early. Otherwise, just say goodbye to any water resources and don't bother making any work boats.

Wodan

Re: Wolf's Mod

I do play it. Some miscellaneous comments.
Ironclads can be pretty close to Destroyers in the basic game, true. If the player follows that specific tech line and if the player doesn't get Ironclads early or Destroyers late. What if, however, you got some ships with, say, Steam power, some with Steel, etc? That would mean there are alternate paths to improve your naval forces. In this scenario, ironclads possibly being close to destroyers is a moot point. "All restaurants are Taco Bell." This is analogous to being able to build different land units... you can get horsemen, xbows, or maces. Eventually you'll get them all, but when you start you have to pick which one.
Rock paper scissors on the water is essential to fun. Everyone says the sea is worthless and unfun. Woody, I'll quote you, "I simply prefer gameplay, over realism." What if you can have both?
I get the feeling some people actually feel some sorrt of threatened by having a lot of water units. I don't get that at all. I suppose that's some sort of "comfort zone" with the basic game. Too many changes are unfamiliar/uncomfortable. Me: I like variety. If every game turned into clones of every other game, I would have stopped playing months ago.

Anyway, as I said, I play it, and enjoy it immensely. I hardly ever play plain BtS anymore.

Wodan

I haven't tried it yet myself. I have recommended it, is that hypocritical? ;-)
I can easily see from looking at the files and the graphics et al, that it is a worthwhile Mod - much more so than many others that completely ream the Tech tree and other mechanics.

Though I will likely remove the Airship & Grenadier changes when I do play it.
I've just about gotten to the knowledge/tactics level that I wanted to attain w/ BTS, a refresh on the Naval side will be a welcome change.

they seem really really useless cept for galley which in some occasions can be important but what im really asking is if anyone ever use them for war?

Sure. Try playing as the Vikings. Load those galleys with Berserkers, send a few triremes as escorts, and a couple spies ahead to open the gates.:viking:

You can put legions on your galleys. It can be done. Sometimes it must be done.


Usually, I only build a trireme for each city with seafood for defense, and two or three more galleys or tri-remes on auto-explore. When the tech comes, I'll upgrade a defender on each coast to caravel load a waiting explorer and send them in opposite directions for the circumnavigation race. Sometimes I don't find anything worth settling or conquering that I can reach with galleys, and they don't get built... I wait for galleons.

Only to sit on top of my fishing nets.

Given coastline, I always build 2 triremes, one each going to the outer reach of my coast to guard against where barb galleys could spawn. They get upgraded to caravels on the turn I get Optics, and head off east and west, so no waste. Often I'll have 4-5 triremes, if there are nearby dark islands or Ragnars.

I usually prioritize Metal Casting if I have coast, and prioritize Great Lighthouse and Colossus in a coastal production city. Those two can easily be better than Code of Laws and Currency for the first expansion phase, or at least hold the fort until you research them.

2-3 nice coastal cities in this scenario provide a solid base for expanding inland in the second phase, and protect your economy while your new cities develop. I often miss the GL, but rarely miss the Colossus when going this route. I wonder will this change in 3.17, assuming AIs will prioritize Metal Casting more often?