I'm surprised: after trouncing the AI on a new type of map for me (I followed instructions on another thread and made snaky archipegalos) with a very bad start as the Dutch (my original BFC had a cow and pig, but 2 peaks and was on a fairly crappy piece of rock), I figured to try something new: Random leader and fractal map on a higher difficulty.
I ended up with the dutch again. ;-) The map was interesting, wasnt too much water -- but it doesnt matter. With the exception of inland maps, it seems the Dutch can just about settle anywhere as long as there is a bit of water nearby. I was way behind until the modern times, missed just about everything, the only wonder I got besides the Great Wall and the Colosus was a great one, however, the Hoover Dam, and then I trounced the snot out of everyone.
Is it just me, or are the Dutch really really strong?

i think their UB is too overpowered, too :)

Not really.

The UB comes late and the UU is useless on pangea maps.

So unless you start on an archipello map in the medieval age, there are much more powerful civilizations out there.
Romans, Sumerians, Persians just to name a few.

No. They are good on all maps - FIN is arguably the top trait, CRE is more useful on land maps, their UB is one of the best on water maps (the Ikhanda or Rathaus still compete).

The UU isn't a game-breaker. Overall, solid but not even in my top 5.

(For me, those are Huayna Capac, Augustus, Darius, Peter and Qin Shi Huang).

their UB is the best "situational" building of all the UB's out there.
my last (and first) game with the dutch... my capital had every tile being affected by the dike. every single tile. most were river but i had 4 coastal tiles.
i had the colossus, and moai statues.
my water tiles were all producing like uncountable commerce and had two hammers.
i wont even start on all those river tiles.

and unlike the leeve, u can build the dike anywhere as long as ur on the ocean.
this means that u get the river tile bonus without having to be on it.

The most powerful civ on a water map. Especially if going for space or just getting through the tech tree.
Financial, powered coastal cities, especially with Colossus are quite good with no worker turns invested. Unfortunately they have to obsolete Colossus to get their UU.
UU is good, but not great, and it is the most situational part of the Dutch.
Their UB is absolutely great. ts power more than makes up for it coming as late as it does, but still not too late to be pointless, and with a tech I often put fairly high. Moai + Dike can create one of the best cities ever.

All that being said, as the amount of land increases their advantage decreases quickly.

No.

(10 chars)

yes, in the netherlands.

their UB is too situational and too strong. and is there any historical realism about that UB ?

WEll they have lots of Dykes, and they reclaimed land from the sea to make it productive. Makes as much sense to increase production as levees.

Lets see, So far the dutch have finished off 1 sea (south sea, south of the North Sea) and turned that into a lake, meaning less flooding, meaning more room for buildings...Secondly massive dikes through the country again reduced the risk of flooding, increased the amount of land available for use as farm land, towns and factory land.

Finaly, a large portion of the harbour rotterdam is being build into the North Sea, again reclaiming parts of the sea turning it into land areas.

And as a very last point, the UU is crap in most cases. The Dutch have to wait until Steam Power before they get an increase production on sea tiles only...the max a sea tile can produce without wonders == 2food, 3gold (for fin) and with the dutch 1 hammer

Lets compare this to a town on a grass land square, 2food, 6 or 7 gold and 1 hammer, available to ALL civs...really, that dike is game breaking, turning shitty squares into something a bit less shitty

Early game coastal cities, especially with a financial leader, are very good as they pay for themselves quite quickly. With few worker turns invested. This makes those cities even better in the later game.
And on archipelago and the like you are going to have lots of coastal tiles (and from my experience are production poor maps and ones that generally go later into the game), and the dikes give the dutch a significant advantage.

I'm playing the Dutch and they are pretty good but most of that derives from Willem being Financial/Creative rather than anything particularly good about the UU or UB (because most of my games get boring by the time they both appear, although the UU being able to go into enemy territory is pretty good and IIRC it gets an extra cargo slot so it is pretty good for intercontinental warfare). Financial needs coast and the wonders that go with it (Colossus, GLH) to get the most out of it, but I also have about five dye plantations in one area as well in my latest game, as well as a gold mine about to come online, so making war is pretty good given 3.17 appears to have ramped up costs for moving troops beyond your borders.

However on a land map or as an AI they don't seem to get off the ground so well and often get boxed in to a corner or a few coastal/island cities. I play at Warlord but they don't seem to leverage their Financial status or REX as much as other Fin or Creative civs, particularly Mansa Musa or Zara Yaqob. Starting with Fishing may be what does it.

I'd say that Hannibal tends to allocate gold/science better overall - when I've played him my tech level has gone through the roof - but in the early game they don't need a UU or UB to be quite decent at REXing and rushing, so long as you get a production city up and running quickly.

Being Fin with a killer UB are what sets these guys off, imo.

.....so has a consensus been reached on this topic?

Is the consensus Willem is fun to play, kill him by the time of railroad otherwise? :D

Being Fin with a killer UB are what sets these guys off, imo.

.....so has a consensus been reached on this topic?

Only if the consensus is, No he is not overpowered.

All the Dikes in the world will not stop prets from walking all over your ass. It takes ages before the UB comes into play. Compare this to for example Persia or Rome, their UB come in to play early and fairly early, are very good buildings and by the time levees/dikes come into play they have conquered most of the world already. They do not depend on landarea's where they build their building and have a much better UU to boot.

Now that is not even get us started on the English, Phi/Fin, the BEST UU in the world and a kick ass bank...and you still want to complain about the Dutch O.o ???

No iron, no Prat's. Usual strat shattered!

Is there any other civ that people say must be overwhelmed before they get their UU? If the Dutch get theirs, alot of people agree they can quickly get into a dominant position because of the blatant hammer spam. The Dutch seem to cop alot of attention to stop them getting that far, where I can't think off-hand of any other civ that demands instant destruction upon discovery?!

....I suppose I'm twisting the thread to 'which civ is the most powerful' buzz by mentioning this. :hide:

Really dykes are used to grow tulips, so it should increase food procution on water tiles.

You know, I used to argue that certain things were overpowered. I thought about it a lot and, well, I just don't believe there is such a thing as "overpowered" in Civ - as it is now - any more. There is no magic leader/civ combination that makes for an easy game on the highest difficulties - barring EXTREMELY stacked circumstances, which, if you aim for those, you know exactly what you're getting into.

In a single player game, if someone chooses to sit there and play Inca and rush a single opponent on Deity level... Who is it overpowering? The CPU? Yeah, well, that's the name of the game. Well, actually, the name of the game is fun... And if a few Praet rushes do that for you, then so be it. Even with power combos, no combos are so powerful as to make regular "hard" games easy, whatever hard may be for you. I defy anyone in here to hop into a huge deity game with 14 civs and tell me it's easy, whoever they play.

There are powerful combos in Civ. Overpowered? The big question is... Who is it overpowering in some unfair manner. Ultimately, if you want a huge challenge, you play the Khmer. If don't want a huge challenge, you play Darius. What you should ask yourself... How much of a challenge do you want? And don't go fooling yourself that Praet rushing a single CPU on deity is as hard as surviving against 18 CPUs on emperor... But if someone is slogging through Deity to nab a win that brings them next to no pleasure due to the difficulty, while you're playing prince Praet rushing the world, you're probably more of a winner than the other guy.

Oh, and on that note... Yep, Willem is a powerful leader - not even the most powerful in my eyes, but powerful - but I don't think he's overpowered.

@ AfterShafter: I have to agree with almost all of that. Though until I read it, I don't believe I would have viewed it like that - but it definitely makes sense.
That idealogy really shines some light onto some of older threads, like the couple of "underpowered UU" ones (I recall the Jaguar ones specifically).

I second that. I heartily agree with AfterShafter. I admit that I used the old dogmatic language typical of most online games forums. What I meant was: Does this (strategy/combination/whatever) strategy yield a much greater benefit than another (fill in the blank) choice would have offered? And to answer your question: "whom does it overpower?" -- let's say "the CPU" is the answer, of course it's not unfair, but I merely asked as a gague for myself and my own abilities. In other words, I stepped up difficulty twice after my experience with the dutch, and was wondering if that was mostly due to luck, to the Dutch, or to my skill. If people had said: "Yes", there is some general consensus that the Dutch are mighty strong, then I would have said "Thank you, I see now that for my next game, I should wait before stepping up and try something else or restart if I get the Dutch as my random leader". But they seem to be saying "No", and hence I interpret this to mean that I have been either lucky or am getting much better.

Thank you all for your input.

I always play with random civ/leader on terra maps, mainly emperor difficulty. Never felt that some leaders more powerfull than others. Here are some exemples:

- Std map, Emp, Isabella: I was in a very bad start, cornered by Ammourabi. I won in 1754 with Culture, because I realised that I would never be good enought in science. This was one of my easiest game ever.

- Std map, Emp, De Gaulle: I had a good start (not fantastic but good), center of map. Managed to build strong cottage econ, and had science and territory leadership starting at 200 BC. This kind of situation is rare in Emperor for me, and I was about to win easily. My success was due to DG traits (Char/Ind). I was at war with 3 CPu quite all the time. I don't like french UU, but I must say it performed well. I lost because of being too harsh on diplomaty: a CPU won a Diplo AP victory.

- Hug map, Emp, Pericles: Very bad start, lots of desert, no happy ressource at all. Cornered by Arabs and Nederland, with Darius as neighbourth. Managed to use Cre trait to limit Darius to 2 cities and rushed Astronomy. Sized the whole new world. Space vic.

- Std map, Emp, Bismark: Good start, conquest victory.

My point with those exemple is that if you don't play saying "I want a Culture victory with Victoria", every leader rocks, since you adapt to his/her traits and to your starting position. So, no I don't think Wil is overpowered.