Hey guys

Been away for a week, and thought of an idea on my travels that I have been meaning to mention for a while now.

Wouldn't it be nice to see a magocracy government option in the game? Seeing as magocracies are a common (and in my opinion, very interesting) parts of the fantasy genre, I think that this could fit in well with FfH.

Although I'm not sure exactly what it would do, here are some suggestions...

Available with the Arcane Lore Tech? (or maybe strength of will if the civic was made powerful, or with sorcery if the civic was made weaker?)

+1 :) from mage's guilds
+2 XP for new arcane units
Some bonus research maybe? From libraries?

Anyone got any other suggestions?

I'd love to see this implemented, though I'm not too fussed about the specifics - mainly the concept!

Thanks guys :)

Al

You can't let civics grant xp for only specific unitcombats. (I have often requested that it be made possible, and xienwolf may yet add it this way in his modmod.) Well, technically you already can, but it would have to be through python instead of xml, the effect would not be displayed, and the AI would have do clue as to how to take advantage of it.

I don't think you can grant extra research from buildings though civic either. (Again, you may be able to come up with some work around using python, sort of how some events work. It would be hard to make you lose the bonus one you switch to a different civic though.)


If it were introduced, some extra bonus from mana would be nice. Doubling the passive effects maybe? Or requireing less mana in order to get the free promotions? (That would probably work better if the current mana requirements for free promotions were raised.)


I'm not so sure that Mage Guilds should give happiness. Magocracies tend to be very corrupt and hard on the non-magically inclined citizenry. It might be appropriate for mage guilds to cause unhappiness, but also take on the functions of courthouses.


Far from the arcane councils that dominated the previous age, Mageocracy in this age was leadership by the most educated and a deep cultural focus on research. A leadership by the wise instead of those with magical gifts. In the following age this trend would reverse, but for now a man was judged by his wisdom and knowledge, not by his ability to conjure fire.

You could consider it being already implemented. Spam Adepts with city boosting spells, select whatever other government choices that work well with many mages and you have a magocracy.

You can't let civics grant xp for only specific unitcombats. (I have often requested that it be made possible, and xienwolf may yet add it this way in his modmod.) Well, technically you already can, but it would have to be through python instead of xml, the effect would not be displayed, and the AI would have do clue as to how to take advantage of it.

I don't think you can grant extra research from buildings though civic either. (Again, you may be able to come up with some work around using python, sort of how some events work. It would be hard to make you lose the bonus one you switch to a different civic though.)


If it were introduced, some extra bonus from mana would be nice. Doubling the passive effects maybe? Or requireing less mana in order to get the free promotions? (That would probably work better if the current mana requirements for free promotions were raised.)


I'm not so sure that Mage Guilds should give happiness. Magocracies tend to be very corrupt and hard on the non-magically inclined citizenry. It might be appropriate for mage guilds to cause unhappiness, but also take on the functions of courthouses.

Nice idea about increasing the effects of raw mana.

I LOVE the idea of mages guilds taking on courthouse roles. I thought about this but thought it would be overpowered with the happiness effects. However, it would be sensible to replace the happiness with the maintenance and crime reducing effects of a courthouse.

I'm still not sure how to make this civic more flavourful if you cannot add XP to certain unit types. Maybe +1 happiness from library (like scholarship), reflecting the increased knowledge increasing the possibility of people learning magic and hence increasing their station? Maybe health from libraries instead as an excess of mages can produce decent cures with many tomes to consult?

I'm literally throwing ideas around here as they come into my head? Anyone else got any ideas to expand on this?

Maybe something related to the civlopedia entry magister posted?

Thanks guys :)

Al

instead of the civic directly granting experience to units could it instead allow players to build cheapish buildings that grant extra experience only to arcane units instead? And the buildings become obsolete or disappear if you switch out of the civic?

instead of the civic directly granting experience to units could it instead allow players to build cheapish buildings that grant extra experience only to arcane units instead? And the buildings become obsolete or disappear if you switch out of the civic?

Units can require civics and be set to abandon if you switch, but buildings cannot. You could create an equivalent in Python (or C++) if you wish, but that would be harder than giving the xmp directly.

Perhaps you could give mages the ability to train spells for money. But only with the magocracy as goverment. And for the supressing rule of a Magocracy give it -3 Happyness, but a spell for the mages "restore order" with +4 Happyness, as log as he stays. (Or hope +4 Happynes with Magocracy)

Perhaps instead and/or as well as a 'restore order' spell you could have +1 happiness per adept/mage/archmage in the city (or perhaps better still +1/+2/+4)?

Other possible benefits - increased production rate, cheaper promotion cost.

Also, perhaps new units could be awarded a random level 1 spell - not neccessarily limited to the mana a civ has access to?...

I think Magocracy would run best with

Medium Upkeep (high upkeep possibly?)

+1 Happy per Arcane unit in city
Mage Guild acts as Court House
+x% beakers in city from Mage Guilds
(Requires the mana, cant remember) Enchanted Weapon for units that are in a town with a mage guild

Rather strong, but you could offput it with,

very strong unhappy/maintnince for cities without mage guilds
increased upkeep costs for military units
less hammers or gold (or both)

Either one of those three or all of them. Granted, in conjunction with the Catacombe Liberablus this becomes very powerful.

This works best because you then end up choosing between having a smaller specialized army with a powerful empire, or a larger military base with one of the other civics.

I think Magocracy would run best with

Medium Upkeep (high upkeep possibly?)

+1 Happy per Arcane unit in city
Mage Guild acts as Court House
+x% beakers in city from Mage Guilds
(Requires the mana, cant remember) Enchanted Weapon for units that are in a town with a mage guild

Rather strong, but you could offput it with,

very strong unhappy/maintnince for cities without mage guilds
increased upkeep costs for military units
less hammers or gold (or both)

Either one of those three or all of them. Granted, in conjunction with the Catacombe Liberablus this becomes very powerful.

This works best because you then end up choosing between having a smaller specialized army with a powerful empire, or a larger military base with one of the other civics.

I really like this idea. The happiness from arcane units and the reduced maintenance with mage's guilds are both great ideas when combined.

I like the bonus to research granted from mage's guild but didn't Magister say that this couldn't be done with civics?

Enchantment mana for the free enchanted weapons would be awesome too... though pretty powerful!


If this tech were available with Strength of Will and set to high upkeep, I could see it working with something else to offset the powerful nature of the civic! Maybe the suggestion about unhappiness and maintenance with cities that don't have mages guilds would work!

Overall I'd say that I'm agreeing with Crazy_Ivan's amalgumation of ideas so far! :D

Any other ideas? Kael, would you be likely to include something like this? :)

Al

I think High-Upkeep would be a must for it (Really, Mage's 'wasting' reagents on research wich doesn't work out and such ;) ).
I guess on the upside there could be chance spawning magic items (pretty much like Crauade spawning Demagog's), for example things like:
A healing potion (healing some amount) / magic fan (granting fair winds or such a thing) / escape amulett (giving the 'escape' spell the Chanter has).
Would also add a bit more sense to the 'steal' ability, without having to add tons of unique items (like the Netherblade or such a thing).

Or as downside there could be chance of spawning barbarian(?) slimes, wich result out of bad experiments, or dissidents (opressing rule and such).

Being able to hurry production through money (guess some magic currency would be cooler, but yeah..), to somewhat represent mage's being able to make things out of thin air...

Mage Guilds acting as courthouses sounds cool, i mean a lot of corruption and such seem to stem from long distances and the problems of messages between regions, wich shouldn't be that much of a problem for a society lead by mages.

Granting XP to all units, while slowing down military production also would be a flavourful i think...

Again looking at the other civics could give other ideas, wich i can't do at the moment :/

Still, despite all the objections, it'd be nice if this could be done for FfH. I know we have a similar civic for the Dragonia mod with the name "Magocracy". Unfortunately, I don't have the authority to give you the code. Ask Darque for it.

IMO, this seems a bit unnecessary since we already get the "scholarship" civic (which I already never use) when you get arcane lore. I would just rather we tweak the "scholarship" civic.

As for me, the only civics I use on that line are "nationhood" and "religion." Everything else is a pain because of the WW.

Y not redo the scholarship civic as magocracy?

IMO, this seems a bit unnecessary since we already get the "scholarship" civic (which I already never use) when you get arcane lore. I would just rather we tweak the "scholarship" civic.

As for me, the only civics I use on that line are "nationhood" and "religion." Everything else is a pain because of the WW.

It's not unnecessary. If you have a Theocracy, surely you should have a magocracy.

It's one of the most common themes in fantasy.

Scholarship does not represent a magocracy at all. It represents a focus on research and knowledge, but that is all.

Al

If we use Theocracy we should rather name it Thaumocracy :D

And I think it should be more balanced than what people are suggesting, I find most of the proposals just too good to true. Maybe it should have a heavy penalty on producing military or the like.

But the wizards taking charge, it is something reasonable in this ambience.

I don't see a magocracy granting +happy at all, since the typical populace tends to resent those in power since they themselves won' ever be able to have it (either you are a mage or you are not). I think it would be more appropriate to increase per city maintenance by 15%, -15% military production, and grant a free promo to arcane units. It would be available at sorcery. A building to have these effects could be used also. The civic would also double the passive effects of mana nodes.

Y not redo the scholarship civic as magocracy?

That would make a lot of sense to me. Add a few magic related benefits and you're good. One addendum I might add is that cities without a mage reprisentative (an adept, mage, archmage) or a mage guild would suffer additional unhappiness or perhaps maintenance costs. I could almost see how to do it. Use code similar to, say, inpiration or hope that checks for an arcane promoted unit. If there isn't on in the city, it creates a building that has a causes the effect. Could that work? I'm just thinking that a magocracy really needs to have a few mages around to keep it running smoothly. Peasants can be such an unruly lot with out someone to keep them in line.

That would make a lot of sense to me. Add a few magic related benefits and you're good. One addendum I might add is that cities without a mage reprisentative (an adept, mage, archmage) or a mage guild would suffer additional unhappiness or perhaps maintenance costs. I could almost see how to do it. Use code similar to, say, inpiration or hope that checks for an arcane promoted unit. If there isn't on in the city, it creates a building that has a causes the effect. Could that work? I'm just thinking that a magocracy really needs to have a few mages around to keep it running smoothly. Peasants can be such an unruly lot with out someone to keep them in line.

Good idea! Though I still think it should be a government civic, not a redo of a cultural value (Scholarship) civic...

Al

Magocracy should also increase Research though, and doubling of node effects seems a bit much too me. Spamming law nodes (or earth) would become very imba, if you keep it I suggest high upkeep for balance. (A GPP boost, perhaps?)

I'm considering adding it as a government civic in my modmod, but I'm far from decided about it yet.

If I do add it, it will definitely be high upkeep to signalize the great corruption such power brings. I'm not sure if I can figure out how to do a lot of the things I would like it to include (like doubled passive effects of all mana), but I could easily make it reduce the amount of mana needed for arcane units to get free sphere promotions. That would be more important in my version, since I had to remove the free promotions that arcane units normally get on upgrade. Otherwise, the Grogori hero "And Now For Something Completely Different" spell would let adventurers exploit it for infinite free promotions (2 free promotions every turn, without xp cost, if you have the gold).

If I'm editing it in python any way I guess I could give free xp to arcane units if I want. The AI wouldn't understand its bonuses and wouldn't probably never use it, but it isn't as good with magic anyway.

Should Magocracy allow any special units, like an arcane version of Royal Guards?

Magister I think you should get rid of that ''now for something different'' spell. It's so unbalanced and annoying.

Should Magocracy allow any special units, like an arcane version of Royal Guards?

Yes, hell yes! That'd be wicked awesome.

What kind of unit should it be?

How about a Sorcerer, which would be essentially the same thing as a Mage but would be built directly, without level requirements? (So that late in the game you wouldn't want to have to wait to level up your adepts when your mages and archmages are killed.)

Or would it be better to add some sort of like a guard that has been trained to resist the magic of rivals magicians? Maybe something Guardsman, Resist Magic, and the ability to target arcane units in rival stacks? (the way that Ballista Elephants target mounted units in BtS, or Luonnatar target Disciples and Aureales target recon in my modmod)

I'm probably going to require Strength of Will (which will probably require you know Alteration, Divination, Elementalism, Necromancy, Arcane Lore, and Philosophy, and so is a really late game tech) for Magocracy, so we can afford for such a late game civic to be a bit overpowered. Especially if the corruption and unhappiness it causes can ruin your economy.





I was also thinking it might be nice to add Cassawallan unit as a limit 1 Amurite national unit, which might require Magocracy. I was actually thinking that I might give every civ one such unit, which would be much like a second national hero but could be replaced. These would probably all be upgrades of the civs most thematic units, and would have very high level requirements. Most would encourage a playing style thematically appropriate to the civ. (For example, I'm thinking I'd give the Bannor a Patriarch, which would be an Order UU upgraded from a Prior.) These are highly respected offices rather than units famous for their personal accomplishments or personality.

What kind of unit should it be?

How about a Sorcerer, which would be essentially the same thing as a Mage but would be built directly, without level requirements? (So that late in the game you wouldn't want to have to wait to level up your adepts when your mages and archmages are killed.)

Or would it be better to add some sort of like a guard that has been trained to resist the magic of rivals magicians? Maybe something Guardsman, Resist Magic, and the ability to target arcane units in rival stacks? (the way that Ballista Elephants target mounted units in BtS, or Luonnatar target Disciples and Aureales target recon in my modmod)

I'm probably going to require Strength of Will (which will probably require you know Alteration, Divination, Elementalism, Necromancy, Arcane Lore, and Philosophy, and so is a really late game tech) for Magocracy, so we can afford for such a late game civic to be a bit overpowered. Especially if the corruption and unhappiness it causes can ruin your economy.





I was also thinking it might be nice to add Cassawallan unit as a limit 1 Amurite national unit, which might require Magocracy. I was actually thinking that I might give every civ one such unit, which would be much like a second national hero but could be replaced. These would probably all be upgrades of the civs most thematic units, and would have very high level requirements. Most would encourage a playing style thematically appropriate to the civ. (For example, I'm thinking I'd give the Bannor a Patriarch, which would be an Order UU upgraded from a Prior.) These are highly respected offices rather than units famous for their personal accomplishments or personality.

Sorcerer would be pretty cool! Allowing for mages to be built directly!

Alternatively (or in addition, depending on how much you are adding to the civic), magocracy could allow a spellsword national unit. Basically a strength 5 adept or mage which can use weapon materials and possibly has city attack I or something? :)

Al

What kind of unit should it be?

How about a Sorcerer, which would be essentially the same thing as a Mage but would be built directly, without level requirements? (So that late in the game you wouldn't want to have to wait to level up your adepts when your mages and archmages are killed.)

Or would it be better to add some sort of like a guard that has been trained to resist the magic of rivals magicians? Maybe something Guardsman, Resist Magic, and the ability to target arcane units in rival stacks? (the way that Ballista Elephants target mounted units in BtS, or Luonnatar target Disciples and Aureales target recon in my modmod)

I'm probably going to require Strength of Will (which will probably require you know Alteration, Divination, Elementalism, Necromancy, Arcane Lore, and Philosophy, and so is a really late game tech) for Magocracy, so we can afford for such a late game civic to be a bit overpowered. Especially if the corruption and unhappiness it causes can ruin your economy.





I was also thinking it might be nice to add Cassawallan unit as a limit 1 Amurite national unit, which might require Magocracy. I was actually thinking that I might give every civ one such unit, which would be much like a second national hero but could be replaced. These would probably all be upgrades of the civs most thematic units, and would have very high level requirements. Most would encourage a playing style thematically appropriate to the civ. (For example, I'm thinking I'd give the Bannor a Patriarch, which would be an Order UU upgraded from a Prior.) These are highly respected offices rather than units famous for their personal accomplishments or personality.

It'd be cool if there was like a few different types of sorcerers, i.e. Necromancer, Pyromancer, etc. These specific types could only use up to three types of magic, but would be very strong in, say, death magic for the necromancer. More diversity and more strength would make people more inclined to pick it.

Edit: Double post. Sorry.

Hmm....what if I created one Magocracy UU for magic tech (Divination, Alteration, Elementalism, and Necromancy), and made them start with the first level promotion for the of the appropriate spell spheres plus channeling 2, but not have channeling 1? Thus, Necromancers would be very good at necromancy (meaning Death, Entropy, Chaos, and Shadow magic), but be unable to learn spells like sanctify or destroy undead. They would not have level requirements, but also wouldn't gain xp as quickly.

In my modmod all levels of sphere promotions require the appropriate mana, and the first level spells don't require channeling1. I'll also have to add one very minor if statement in CvEventmanager, but that isn't a big deal. Otherwise that wouldn't work very well.





If I do it like this, should they still be able to upgrade to Archmages? Or have their own upgrades? Maybe the "Tower Master" mages I had proposed and just about forgotten about would be good as upgrades for them? They would have either a world or national limit of 1, would require the appropriate Tower, have channeling 2 and 3, strength entirely dependent on affinity to the appropriate mana types, and a unit-specific spell. (For example, Great Necromancers could take control of nearby undead units, Lords of the Elements could take control of nearby Elementals, and Great Diviners could be sacrificed to give you a free tech. I'm not sure what Great Enchanters could do. Maybe create random equipment?)

My change to the Tower of Mastery (giving out a free channeling 3 promotion to units in the city, plus granting 1 metamagic mana) would also mean that these units could cast archmage spells without upgrading at all.

Hmm....what if I created one Magocracy UU for magic tech (Divination, Alteration, Elementalism, and Necromancy), and made them start with the first level promotion for the of the appropriate spell spheres plus channeling 2, but not have channeling 1? Thus, Necromancers would be very good at necromancy, but be unable to learn spells like sanctify or destroy undead. They would not have level requirements, but also wouldn't gain xp as quickly.

In my modmod all levels of sphere promotions require the appropriate mana, and the first level spells don't require channeling1. I'll also have to add one very minor if statement in CvEventmanager, but that isn't a big deal. Otherwise that wouldn't work very well.





If I do it like this, should they still be able to upgrade to Archmages? Or have their own upgrades? Maybe the "Tower Master" mages I had proposed and just about forgotten about would be good as upgrades for them? They would have either a world or national limit of 1, would require the appropriate Tower, have channeling 2 and 3, strength entirely dependent on affinity to the appropriate mana types, and a unit-specific spell. (For example, Great Necromancers could take control of nearby undead units, Lords of the Elements could take control of nearby Elementals, and Great Diviners could be sacrificed to give you a free tech. I'm not sure what Great Enchanters could do. Maybe create random equipment?)

My change to the Tower of Mastery (giving out a free channeling 3 promotion to units in the city, plus granting 1 metamagic mana) would also mean that these units could cast archmage spells without upgrading at all.

That all sounds wicked awesome. I say do it, man.