Why do the AI always spam roads?

Uh, because they're incredibly useful to have? Doubling or tripling (w/ engineering) movement is pretty much essential to success for any strategy, and unless your workers have something better to do, they should be building roads. Roads are a massive defensive advantage, unless the enemy has Raiders, in which case they're pretty much just a break-even.

Overuse of roads is rediculous, man. They only need roads to connect cities and ressources, not every frickin tile possible. It's annoyin when you conquer an AI city and find that you have to rework the road system cuz it makes no sense.

when there's an enemy stack somewhere halfway through your lands, i often find it quite usefull to have roads leading off and to the point that enemy stack is, so i can do swift strike and return actions against that stack. Having a lot of roads helps tremendously for doing this. Raiders is a different story though, tasunke can pretty much pillage every cottage in your BFC in 1 turn if everything is roaded up.

That's one reason to not spam roads. Raider trait. So, why doesn't the AI realize this?

because it is useful to have roads everywhere?
the raider trait just makes it a break even.

to defend the own country roads are quite essential. and there is no backdraw.

But you don't need roads all over the place. Only to connect cities and resources and trade networks. But not all over the place.

At least they are not spamming railroads, like in some other game I know.

Well, then maybe there should be some game-mechanic that discourages road spamming. I don't know, road maintenance?

Unless your surrounded by raider trait aggressive horse users, there is no reason -not- to road everywhere with your workers when there isn't anything else to do, just so you can strike at some random unit in your land and not being stuck because your not on a road, or so you can go anywhere from anypoint even if something suddenly blocks the one road or pillages it.

That's one reason to not spam roads. Raider trait. So, why doesn't the AI realize this? I don't buy this. Unless every enemy unit has commando, roads everywhere still gives you and advantage, as ALL of your units will have reduced movement, compared to only some of theirs.
The fastest route between two points is a straight line, and if you can reinforce a distant city a turn early because of excessive roads going in a diagonal direction, it'll be a slight advantage. If the workers have nothing better to do, might as well, unless you just find it unsightly.

I don't really have a problem with road spamming. I do it myself when there is nothing else for my workers to do. It is certainly better than leaving them on their own to building forts everywhere. It isn't nearly as much of a deal if you (like xienwolf and vehem) and make Raiders grant an auto-pillaging Raider promotion instead of Commando.


I did have a big "railroad" spamming problem once, when I decided to add a Royal Highway route. These were just railroads with normal road graphics that had very high build costs and required clearing features (this is allowed in the normal schema, although never used. I was thinking these should clear improvements too, but I don't think it had that ability) and required Engineering, not one of the types of unique roads I suggested when I first joined civfanatics. (I'd still like them, but I doubt they are possible to implement.) I abandoned the idea when I found out that the elven civs don't leave forests behind when building routes like they do when building improvements. As soon as the elven civs acquired Engineering they went about clearing every ancient forest from their empire.

I don't really have a problem with road spamming. I do it myself when there is nothing else for my workers to do. It is certainly better than leaving them on their own to building forts everywhere. It isn't nearly as much of a deal if you (like xienwolf and vehem) and make Raiders grant an auto-pillaging Raider promotion instead of Commando.
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Same thing here, I like to make the entire BFC roaded up, probably a bit of a holdover from previous Civ games where roads actually provided a gold bonus to the tile. I also do the same thing when my settlers are not doing anything.

Ok, bottom line, road spammin annoys me. Apparently, no one agrees with me. I wanted to know if anyone did. Guess not.

It bothers me, too. I actually wrote a letter to my state representative today. It's absolutely ridiculous that in Connecticut, there are roads connecting just about EVERYTHING. Roads go to farms that aren't built on wheat resources. Roads go through forests that don't lead anywhere. Roads even lead to rival states! It's unsightly and unnecessary.

I would urge all CT residents to vote Yes for Proposition 183 this coming election, which will remove these horrible eyesores from our beautiful state.

Honestly, if you don't have roads in all your territory, or at least on all of your improvements (not just resources), you're just waiting to get pillaged to death. Also, good luck reinforcing your cities when you have to route everything through your capitol.

Ok, bottom line, road spammin annoys me. Apparently, no one agrees with me. I wanted to know if anyone did. Guess not.

Yup. I think you got it right. Nobody agrees with you :)

Seriously though, there's lots of very serious problems with the AI. I can't understand why "this" would be such a major pet peeve with you.

I, as well as most everyone else here, spam roads over my entire empire, except if I border a civ with the raiders promotion. As mentioned before, it's better logisticly for defense. You are giving yourself a disadvantage if you don't.

Also, realistically, nations spam roads everywhere in real life because it's good for commerce and for moving troops around. It doesn't make any sense to have only a single road for transportation between cities.

You should have roads in every tile of your empire. You never know when you will need to attack an invasion force. An invading army will likely plunder improvments and roads. If you have a road in every tile, you will have a better chance of using a road to attack with a movment level 2 or greater unit and be able to make it back into the safety of your city.

Besides, Civs with the Raider trait can still use your "strategic roads" to reach your cities anyway.

there was work on a modcomp a while ago I remember reading that changed the road system a bit that I think would be interesting for FFH.

It basically gave all improvements the movement bonus function of roads, but restricted them such that roads themselves were still required for connecting cities and resources. Might be interesting coupled with the raider trait if commando only helped you on enemy roads, but not their improvements. You would have to increase the build time or something for the improvements and hopefully adjust the AI to not overdo the roads like they do now.

It is unsightly. My problem with not spamming them is not so much that I might lose an extra 1/2 move between cities for some unit 1/2 way between cities (if the game is so critical, I've pretty much lost control anyway) but that the enemy, no matter how nicely I ask, doesn't stay on my pretty roads... or could break a trade route, sending a city into chaos... so I must have them everywhere :mad:

Roads should incur a penalty to the tile (or city within 3-ring radius, -1/4 health?), perhaps removed with a late tech(s).

2. Chopping at a reduced speed and/or hammers should be possible at game start; crafting adds hammers and bronze/iron adds speed.

You should have roads in every tile of your empire. You never know when you will need to attack an invasion force. An invading army will likely plunder improvments and roads. If you have a road in every tile, you will have a better chance of using a road to attack with a movment level 2 or greater unit and be able to make it back into the safety of your city.

Besides, Civs with the Raider trait can still use your "strategic roads" to reach your cities anyway.

Here's the thing. I don't want roads everywhere. I think it's a waste. So, everyone, quit tellin me roads should be everywhere!

It is unsightly. My problem with not spamming them is not so much that I might lose an extra 1/2 move between cities for some unit 1/2 way between cities (if the game is so critical, I've pretty much lost control anyway) but that the enemy, no matter how nicely I ask, doesn't stay on my pretty roads... or could break a trade route, sending a city into chaos... so I must have them everywhere :mad:

Roads should incur a penalty to the tile (or city within 3-ring radius, -1/4 health?), perhaps removed with a late tech(s).

2. Chopping at a reduced speed and/or hammers should be possible at game start; crafting adds hammers and bronze/iron adds speed.

Finally, someone who knows wat I mean! Thank you, Ecofarm. :) I like your suggestion too. Very practical.

If you have something better to do, obviously you don't want to be building roads in every time. But seriously though, having roads in every tile of your empire is definitely useful. The raider trait is not reason enough not to have roads, because while your enemies can use it, so can you.

I agree it makes sense from a gaming point of vue to road-spam, but lore-wise, it's always something that annoys me when a whole continent is "roaded up" in FFH.
I mean, ok for modern day countries having roads all over the place, but I find it more flavorful when there are large forest or desert zones without improvements, even inside cultural borders, as long as they're outside of city grids. I really doubt most leaders in Erebus have time to plan "road development" with the Infernals at their door !

What about some python based graphical improvement that places 'major roads' on the shortest distance between two cities for each near city. The rest of the 'minor roads' would be retextured to stand out less.
It would slow the game down to run the calculation every time a new city is founded or a road built. End of turn however adds it to every turn of play, which is no fun either. So, just have onImprovmentbuilt (if road) and onCityfound set a boolean (update major routes) to 1 and then at end turn if that is 1 run the calculations.

I haven't worked out the algorithm myself but it should be possible and not too performance costly. If someone wants to work it out (I don't know C4 python well yet) it would make a great addition to late game civ4 as well (highways, shortlines vs corridor lines...)
If figure the system would also work if not strictly graphical, and you say that the defending military, with their superior cartography, can use the back routes better then the enemy commandos.

When playing Elves, I move throug forest just like on a road, so I build roads only to connect cities and resources. But I make the roads double. It's pretty uncommon that the AI will pillage both roads from my resource at once.
If Malakim, I don't build roads on deserts, except for connecting resources and cities.
Same with dwarves and hills.

This way you've got better movement than your Raiders enemy.

And if I have Raiders neighbour I leave my border stripped from roads. Maybe one or two roads to the border, but guarded. Especially if he's Hippus.

Finally, someone who knows wat I mean! Thank you, Ecofarm. :) I like your suggestion too. Very practical.

Wait, what? If he has trouble with an AI destroying an important road and breaking your trade network, isn't that argument for spamming roads? And as Magister said, what else are workers going to do? And finally, having those extra roads could mean the difference between reinforcements in your territory attacking an enemy army, because they reached the army with 1/3 of a move left, and having to wait a turn, because they had to cross a non-road tile and use of their last move.

I can understand the 'unsightly' argument. In previous Civ games I went overboard spamming upgraded roads (railroads, or magtubes in some games) because they were straight and clean. There's no alternative in FFH, but ignoring the huge tactical advantage of a surplus of roads is just going to hurt you.

Keep in mind that attaching penalties (maintenance or health) to roads to discourage spamming, as some suggest, would disproportionately penalize your important central cities which connect to many other cities. This is both unrealistic (cities don't get worse from having many trade connections) and obnoxious from a MM perspective--figuring out exactly how to arrange my roads so as to give my capital the smallest health hit is not what I want to spend my brainpower on in Civ.

Roads should be everywhere.

Fine. I've heard a lot of opinions. So, let's let this thread die. Obviously, y'll spam roads. I don't. Peace.

Though, isn't your biggest complaint is that the AI spams roads? I say if the computer wants to go around spamming roads (like 99% of the real life players do), then let them do it. It seems your problem as in asthetic thing, and bear in mind these tiles are meant to represent HUGE/VAST distances. It's not like 100,000 people are crammed into a 1tile city thats the size of a Wal-Mart or anything. Having a road through a tile from a real life perspective would be like having ONE SINGLE road through a decent sized modern day city or town.

You know, those small towns that only have one stoplight in them on main street? Consider the road in those outlying tiles to be that old country road running through town.

Your problem is asthetic and apperance based, but not game based or real life based. Every tile in your empire should have a road through it as people have said, so you can get anywhere in your OWN borders with the least amount of movement. If some army hoards up next to one of your resources on a hill/forest tile with 50% defense, you want to be able to get to them as quickly as possible. If you want to play a game with me, I will gladly pillage your lands and easily bring in an invading force because you are too nitpicky to build roads all around your cities. It will just make it that much easier to get around your lands without fear of being attacked or getting hit by your reinforcements!

Though, isn't your biggest complaint is that the AI spams roads? I say if the computer wants to go around spamming roads (like 99% of the real life players do), then let them do it. It seems your problem as in asthetic thing, and bear in mind these tiles are meant to represent HUGE/VAST distances. It's not like 100,000 people are crammed into a 1tile city thats the size of a Wal-Mart or anything. Having a road through a tile from a real life perspective would be like having ONE SINGLE road through a decent sized modern day city or town.

You know, those small towns that only have one stoplight in them on main street? Consider the road in those outlying tiles to be that old country road running through town.

Your problem is asthetic and apperance based, but not game based or real life based. Every tile in your empire should have a road through it as people have said, so you can get anywhere in your OWN borders with the least amount of movement. If some army hoards up next to one of your resources on a hill/forest tile with 50% defense, you want to be able to get to them as quickly as possible. If you want to play a game with me, I will gladly pillage your lands and easily bring in an invading force because you are too nitpicky to build roads all around your cities. It will just make it that much easier to get around your lands without fear of being attacked or getting hit by your reinforcements!

My biggest complaint WAS AI road spammin. NOW it's people who make very long posts when I asked that everyone let the thread die.

threads die when people decide not to post anymore, not when the OP likes to.
go roads! ;)

Darkstick1: Well, my thoughts on roads are-
Rock Like a Fool: Be quit!
Darkstick1: -that road spamming-
Rock Like A Fool: BE QUIT!
Darkstick1: -is a viable strategie-
Rock Like a Fool: SHUT UP!:mad:
Darkstick1: -as any civ but that "Urk"!
Rock Like a Fool: grabs Darkstick1 by the neck and drags him away and beats him, then storms away
Darkstick1: -but that the Elves and Vehem's lizardmen have the best advantage with roads hhhhhrrrrr...Darkstick1 expired at this point
------------------------The End---------------
Darkstick1: Hrahp(breaths Suddenly)
------------------------Or is It?--------------

I believe that this is an immortal threat...it doesn´t die, it just spawns at the capital.
So let us sing like the Vikings ind Monty Python...
roadsroadsroadsroadsroads. Lovely roads! Wonderful roads! roads roa-a-a-a-a-ds roads roa-a-a-a-a-ds roads. Lovely roads! Lovely roads! Lovely roads! Lovely roads! Lovely roads! roads roads roads roads!

threads die when people decide not to post anymore, not when the OP likes to.
go roads! ;)

They stop either then, or when a moderator decides to close it. Rocklikeafool could PM Woodelf and try to convince him to close it if he likes.

Or, he maybe can try to make this thread become so rude or obscene that that they are forced to take action to close it.

(The first option is probably better, as he could probably get banned from civfanatics if he goes too far.)

I think RLAF's complaint about AI road spam raises a good question though.

Could the AI in fact be programmed to build roads minimally and more intelligently (road spamming pro's aside)? For example, could the AI be programmed to make roads only to connect cities and resources with say a single road leading to other civs for trade routes?

If so, I'd be interested in that, but if not then I suppose the whole point/complaint is moot anyways.

threads die when people decide not to post anymore, not when the OP likes to.
go roads! ;)

To quote McArthur, "Old threads never die, they just fade away."

Don't feel too bad TS. Most of us have started a thread at one time that we weren't too proud of later. I have to say though, "road spamming" is one of the strangest complaints I've ever heard of since I started playing back in v. 21:)

I would recommend that you probably shouldn't get a job in the state government transportation department or in supply chain management. I'd hate it if I woke up one morning and realized I couldn't get anywhere because every road except the highways (which connect the major cities) had been bulldozed. :D

In all seriousness though, if anything, I would give roads a +1 gold bonus per square. Roads and transportation are the key to good commerce thoughout the world and everyone benefits by having as many routes to move products as possible.

I was saddened when roads no longer give +1 commerce. Remember the good ol' Civ 2 Days? Railroads and Superhighways FTW!

I'd say that you shouldn't add +1 golf from routes, you should add +1 commerce to some(/most?) improvements with routes. A road to nowhere doesn't give you gold, but a roads to surrounding villages do promote trade.

I'd say that you shouldn't add +1 golf from routes, you should add +1 commerce to some(/most?) improvements with routes. A road to nowhere doesn't give you gold, but a roads to surrounding villages do promote trade.

Yes, that's better. I'd add +1 commerce per square which has roads and any improvements.

I reckon roadless grassland interrupted by the occasional desert or water tile would be much more suitable for a +1 golf bonus... but on a more serious note, roads could use looking into.

Perhaps a ritual or wonder somewhere on the recon/nature tree that turns roads invisible and omnipresent within the empire, removing the issue altogether?

I liked the old Civ2 days where any flatland with a road gave +1 trade (What commerce was called in Civ2). Regardless of where they lead roads will encorage travel, particularly people just wanting to see the sights, a.k.a. tourists. Tourists spend big money.

Roads have negative health impacts, from the spread of disease to run-off pollution. You people want all of the trade (and movement) benefits and none of the negatives.

Thats one side of the medal & surely a realistic point of view.
I wanna add that roads surely give a culteral bonus, allowing all kinds of ppl to visit the land, so its:
:commerce: :culture: :yuck: per tile!

Sure if that would ever b implemented, we need another set of buildings for the cities to even things out! Soooo, as we dont wanna add more complexity we'll leave it as it is! :crazyeye:

I liked the old Civ2 days where any flatland with a road gave +1 trade (What commerce was called in Civ2). Regardless of where they lead roads will encorage travel, particularly people just wanting to see the sights, a.k.a. tourists. Tourists spend big money.

That is probably where the road spamming habit started for most people.

I remember making just about every tile in my empire with roads (and later, railroads) in Civ2.

@ecofarm: true, but we are talking about Erebus here, there aren't any cars. If there are any non-dirt roads, they are likely to be paved with stone. Honestly though, given the vastness of the Kuriotate empire or even one of thier BFCs, having lots of roads would be useful.

Roads have negative health impacts, from the spread of disease to run-off pollution. You people want all of the trade (and movement) benefits and none of the negatives.

I have a very hard time imagining run-off pollution as a serious medieval health issue...

I personally don't have a problem with roads as is. The biggest complaint I am seeing here is based on aesthetics, which each person has their own view on what is proper. I think as is is good. My little cities are not road spammed because the workers have more important things to do after the initial connection. My big cities are road spammed for all the tactical reasons people have mentioned here and I feel it gives the land a more civilized look which I feel fits the environs of a size 15+ city which is about the time my workers in the area are bored.

To each his own, but I don't see this as a game-stopping issue that need distract the team from doing ever more amazing things with this fantastic mod.

Roads have negative health impacts, from the spread of disease to run-off pollution. You people want all of the trade (and movement) benefits and none of the negatives.

I'd say that overall, roads are more beneficial than detrimental to health. I'd rather an ambulance get to me in 10 minutes by road than in 2 days by foot through the woods.

And really, "you people"? Confrontational much?

Besides, it's not the roads themselves that spread disease, it's the travellers that use them which would spread disease.

Well, if these roads are also functioning as sewers (as most urban roads did until recent times) then the roads could spread disease. That isn't really relevant to the intercity roads that workers build though.

Well, if these roads are also functioning as sewers (as most urban roads did until recent times) then the roads could spread disease. That isn't really relevant to the intercity roads that workers build though.

True, I thought Ecofarm was referring to intercity roads or country roads though.

Well, if these roads are also functioning as sewers (as most urban roads did until recent times) then the roads could spread disease. That isn't really relevant to the intercity roads that workers build though.

Whether or not you have roads in a big city, you've still got sewage. Taking away roads wouldn't do anything about that.

I would actually prefer it from a realism point of view if all tile improvements automatically came with roads. After all, how are you going to get the ore back from the mine if you don't have a road there? Although I would like to see inter-city roads that function as major trade routes organically grow into visible major roads, distinguishing them from minor roads that just connect to a farm or whatever.

I would actually prefer it from a realism point of view if all tile improvements automatically came with roads. After all, how are you going to get the ore back from the mine if you don't have a road there?

I always imagined that city+BFC is a simplified picture of a province with its administrative center. In this way a mine is not just a mine, but rather a mining colony. A farm is not just a tract of farmed land, but rather an agricultural region with villages. A town is, ehm, a town. So people live and work not only in the city, but also in BFC.

In this way you don't really need to transport ore to city, you'd have smiths in the mining colony. Only when you need some more advanced work to be done, like equip your troops with iron weapons, you'd need to transport the ore to the city, where specialized weaponsmiths live and work.

My point is, I can live without improvements with automatic roads.

Heh heh. I've been on vacation and am catching up on threads, so my appologies, but this is one dead horse I really want to beat on :p


I personally spam roads everywhere. I get upset when my workers sit idle instead of spamming roads if I automate them.

Reason that I would encourage the AI to spam roads more often: If I go on a Bambur Rampage early game and wipe out all my neighbors, I locate their cities by following their roads. If I couldn't follow a nice direct line to the next city and had to actually hunt for them, I probably wouldn't EVER wipe out another Civ in the early/mid game. I kinda suck at scouting :)


The arguement about not knowing when you'll want to attack a certain tile it also fairly valid. But more important than that is not knowing when you will NOT want to attack a tile. If there is a hostile unit in your territory blocking a road, and you would rather move past him to a larger threat than attack him, you need a road to move around the oaf. If you don't place enough roads, then you are forced into the surrounding terrain with base movement rates and probably won't be able to move past without a fight. I've lost quite a few cities like this (5 units on the only road leading out of the city. City guarded by a single warrior, and I need to move 3 scouts into the city. If I could use roads, no problem, and the defensive bonus means I can hold the city. But if I have to attack his units to get through... those scouts aren't going to do enough damage to keep that lone warrior alive and defending my city)

road spamming = Godly

And really, "you people"? Confrontational much?

Always. What's your point?

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Roads are UGLY! Booo00000OOOOO roads!

The Elves, especially if following FoL should not spam roads.

Well, you can also look at roads as developed trails through lands, its not like they are all paved/cobble stone or something. I view it more along the lines of creating a "path" thru the tile as opposed to viewing it a a straight up road. (since there are no road upgrades.)