I feel that catapults and their kin are mostly useless in the game. This has been an opinion I've only recently cemented. Here's why.

Bombard
I used to think this was a must. All these big cities with their big percentages just demanded that I try to take them down. Problem was that it's a slow process made slower by the movement speed of the siege units. Leaves the whole stack vulnerable to counter-attack and gives the city more time to reinforce. Not good. At least siege unit do have a secondary feature.

Collateral Damage
Never used this that much until I tried a vanilla game. It's a great effect, certainly nice for softening up your opposition, but it requires you to risk the siege weapon. Either it ends up wounded or dead, both limiting its continued functionality on the battlefield. The only recourse is to have a large number of them at the beginning of the fight and to have a continuous, vulnerable train of them coming in. Waiting for more units to arrive or for them to build slows everything down, and there are much faster ways to cause collateral damage.

Magic
This is the number one reason why I don't build siege: magic does it all and better. Need to bombard? A stack of mages with fireballs can do it several tiles out. Need to dish out some collateral damage? Just whip out maelstrom, typhoon, or ring of flames. All are fairly easy to get and don't even require you to risk the unit in direct conflict. As if all that weren't enough, magic users can also easily get mobility promotions, either straight out of the gate or via picking of a weakened unit.

Possible Fixes
This isn't another thread asking for magic to get nerfed. I like how it works. I'm just thinking that siege needs to be strengthened. For instance, combine bombard and collateral into one effect. There's really no reason why siege should have to risk itself to fling rocks and fire shells at a distant city. Also, allow siege units to actually kill enemy units when they do attack, just not move in to occupy the space immediately. It is possible to saturate an area with enough shells to wipe out a regiment of troops. It's just not easy. Keeping the siege units a the same strength they are now would mean they would mostly be left with picking off wounded units like casters and priests do. Would also allow the siege units to gather xp faster and stay useful on the battlefield.
These were just some thoughts I had. I may be completely crazy and missing out on how to use them effectively and efficiently. Still, I'd wager it can be done better and faster with magic. Let me know if I'm right or not. ;)

i like the effects, but i would limit them to the dwarven siege UU's.

That would certainly make sense. Khazad don't even get mages, so they would need it most. I forget how much magery the luchuirp can do...
I'd still want some boost to the other civilization's siege equipment. Just make the dwarves to it better.

The Warhammer mod allows catapults and some archer units to target an adjacent square without having to launch a physical attack. At first I thought this was fantastic, and what I`d love to see in FFH, but after a few seiges I realised that they are just as useless in this scenario. I had 5 catapults and 3 Shadow warriors (archers who can target) pelting an enemy city for turn after turn, but the defenders only lost a small % of their strength each turn, and kept on healing in their own. The importance and power of archers and seige artillery REALLY needs to be looked at I think. I would also like to see bonuses for attacking from a height (ie hilltop) for archers, as this could have devastating effects on an enemy. The current mechanics seem to be missing the point, IMHO.

Frankly I think a partial fix would be to remove the mobility promotion. Or at least prevent mages, priests, and melee units from having it. Then mages aren't faster anymore, the catapults don't slow you down (everyone is slow), and recon and horsemen units are more special. Also, you should be able to haste catapults and cannons. They don't push themselves you know (well, maybe the Luchuirp ones do).

Used to have similar thoughts, but I think magic and siege units are actually balanced quite nicely now. Catapults are attainable earlier than mages and the construction tech and siege workshops also provide chariots (with trade), which are extemely powerful if you have bronze/iron. I do like the idea of a later game 2-3 move siege unit and/or hastable cats.

In my version I'm letting Archers, Siege units (excluding rams), and the most advances ships attack at range. Only marksmen can actually kill at range though, and only Khazad Siege UUs have a range of more than 1. Siege units have had their base strength greatly lowered, lost their large withdrawal chance, and been made more expensive.

The reason your units were causing so much damage is that units probably have Air Combat damage limits. You can set this to whatever you want. A value of 100 will make the ranged attacks lethal.


I also allowed RoK Soldiers of Kilmorph and Paramanders carry siege units as cargo. Considering that RoK civs can give Dwarven or Divine units a promotion that lets them cross through peaks in addition to being able to get mobility promotions siege will be much more mobile.





I proposed allowing units to bombard defenses during attacks instead of as a separate ability a month or two ago. I've been meaning to look into how to do it, but haven't gotten around to it yet. It would almost certainly require SDK changes.

Why not allow Siege units a version of Mobility at Engineering? I think the real problem with them is that they're just far too slow compared to mages. Sure, they can take walls down faster once they're there, but mages (and their fireballs) just get started so much sooner, since they reach the target city so much faster.

I realize this might take away some of the flavor of siege weapons, but I think it's a lot better to have slightly less flavor than to be nearly pointless.

Actually the Luchuirp and teh Khazad already have uber siege engines because of their repair spell. (echantment lvl 1 + dwaren). Basically you have your stack of catapults attack the city and do damage, and then your 5 adepts can heal all of your catapults (80% of them will survive) back to full in preparation for next turn.

Khazad especially (Chirp have fireballs and Golems, which is vastly more effective).

What I think actually make the most sense as a 'good' fix for siege, is to allow them to bombard defenses from further away. Not attack them, but just let them be able to bombard further. Catapults would get two square range, and Cannons would get 3. Give you a reason to build them as support, and would let them 'keep up' with the other units you have.

Khazad especially (Chirp have fireballs and Golems, which is vastly more effective).

What I think actually make the most sense as a 'good' fix for siege, is to allow them to bombard defenses from further away. Not attack them, but just let them be able to bombard further. Catapults would get two square range, and Cannons would get 3. Give you a reason to build them as support, and would let them 'keep up' with the other units you have.

The easiest way to do this would be to give them the bombing ability rather than (or,as I prefer, in addition to) air combat. Of course, that would also mean that they could destroy improvements from a distance, but that could be a good thing.

In the warhammer mod, catapults can barrage and injure up to 4 units, but only to a maximum of 20% damage. They're a well designed support unit; they can knock a stack down by 20% (actually much more, since promotion bonuses are based off the current strength, not the total, so reducing by 20% also reduces all promotion and defensive bonuses by 20%) but you still need to use regular units to actually do the killing.

That sounds like simple AirCombat ranged attacks with combat limits plus collateral to me.

So, maybe make it so the seige weapons can cause both a minimum and maxium of 20% damage. I say minimum and maxium cause that guarentees, in the XML code, that it will cause 20% damage. But also make it so that the seige units cannot kill any units. However, the stipulation is if the units bein attacked are in a city, the city must have less than 50% defense left. That way no one will complain too much bout it bein overpowered.

There is currently no way to make a unit deal a "minimum damage" in xml. I don't think that it would be very easy to add either, nor do I like the idea.

I'm pretty sure that the units' comparative strength is used to determine how much damage in dealt in several combat rounds, much like land combat. A combat limit means that the the cannot continue to hurt an enemy more than a certain amount. A combat limit doesn't limit the amount of damage dealt, it means that combat will be cut short before the unit deals more than that percent of its strength. A combat limit of 100 is required in order for a unit to ever kill its rival. A limit of 20 would mean that the targets would always kee[ at least 80% of its strength.

Collateral damage may be handed a little differently. It can be either ranged or direct.

There is currently no way to make a unit deal a "minimum damage" in xml. I don't think that it would be very easy to add either, nor do I like the idea.

WAT?! You make your own tags. It can't be too hard. And, btw, I believe there are a few units in the Warhammer mod that have minimum damage. I may be wrong; if so, pardon me. But if I remember correctly, there are in that mod.

Jus so ya know, the entire purpose is to make absolutely sure that the bombardment causes 20% damage.

The Warhammer mod allows catapults and some archer units to target an adjacent square without having to launch a physical attack. At first I thought this was fantastic, and what I`d love to see in FFH, but after a few seiges I realised that they are just as useless in this scenario. I had 5 catapults and 3 Shadow warriors (archers who can target) pelting an enemy city for turn after turn, but the defenders only lost a small % of their strength each turn, and kept on healing in their own. The importance and power of archers and seige artillery REALLY needs to be looked at I think. I would also like to see bonuses for attacking from a height (ie hilltop) for archers, as this could have devastating effects on an enemy. The current mechanics seem to be missing the point, IMHO.

Hehe you should really post this kind of feedback in the Warhammer forum too :p this is really helpful. thanks :D

Hehe you should really post this kind of feedback in the Warhammer forum too :p this is really helpful. thanks :D

Well, your mod doesn't seem to have a problem with this particular thing. Frankly, I like most of wat you guys do. If I have a problem, I'll post on it. But I'll try to give better feedback in any case.

An idea to make casters less spammable compared to catapults which need to heal after dealing damage, give a % chance to become fatiqued from using certain strong spells, such as ring of flame, fireball, tsunami and the like, once fatiqued, they can't use the spell until they recover.

Could also make it so high priests and archmages and heroes with those spells won't become fatiqued while using them.

For making siege better, bombarding from a couple tiles sounds like it could be useful and unique, if it did much reduced damage and couldn't move after.

And the idea of adding mobility to siege at engineering sounds good too, but only if engineering is toned down abit.

And it would ne realy cool, if you need to set up a siege unit. so it need a full round to be able to move after Bombartment.

What about allowing catapults to choose the type of damage they deal? I'm thinking of greek fire/napalm, Ice 9 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_9) type projectiles, cold Iron munitions or heck Pyre Zombies. :lol:

Projecting Goblin Saboteurs, destroys a building. Use the Trojan Horse to throw Nightwatch into a city to kidnap GPs.

Would be cool, all I'm saying. :goodjob:

Well, your mod doesn't seem to have a problem with this particular thing. Frankly, I like most of wat you guys do. If I have a problem, I'll post on it. But I'll try to give better feedback in any case.

1) I also like "most of wat you guys do" too, I was making a comment on an aspect of FFH by making reference to the Warhammer mod. I have only just started playing WH and this is only an initial observation. I must add that I am loving this mod. (thanks PL for your comments :) )

2) I intend to post about the Warhammer mod when I have a clear idea of what I want to say in regard to a full game, which I have not yet completed. I do not need people like you to insinuate if, when and where I post.

3) You didn't give better feedback mate. You just said "I like most of wat you guys do." If you consider that better feedback than my specific and constructive criticism, then bully for you, just go on believing it, and I'll keep on ignoring it. For some people, ignorance is bliss.

Why not just change Bombard to a spell with range 2? This would mean that, like Maelstrom Mages, they could start bombarding from two tiles away, making downtimes (i.e. waiting for the city defenses to go down before attacking, which would take several turns with siege units) much shorter.
I guess it would have to be changed so that it wouldn't target more than one city at the same time, but except for that, it would make bombard much stronger, and also allow siege units to bombard and attack with their collateral damage at the same time.
Right now, Siege units have huge Bombard values, but they don't really get to bombard anything because by the time they are close to the enemy's city, the city should already have fallen. By slightly decreasing these values (e.g. 15% instead of 20%), but allowing them to cast them more often, it would vastly increase the effectiveness of siege units.

If Collateral damage depends on a unit's strength, increasing the base strength values of catapults might help if their collateral damage is insufficient in comparison to spells like Maelstrom and Tsunami (which, frankly, are still insane). If Collateral damage would be made stronger, one could also differentiate siege units into units with strong Bombard and weaker Collateral and units with weak (or non-existent) Bombard and stronger Collateral.

Other than that, I see no reason not to give the siege units ways to get at least 2 movement points (e.g. allowing them to get Mobility 1, or allowing them to be hasted). Right now, Mages are better siege units than any real siege units are - a classical balance problem.

Even with all these changes, they would probably still be inferior to Maelstrom Mages (both because Maelstrom would still be stronger, and because they can actually cast other things IN ADDITION to being better siege units right now), but they would at least be a lot more useful than they are now.

I quite like MondSemmel's suggestion of Bombard being on the lines of the spell allowing the possibility for a siege engine to both bombard and attack in the same turn.

Perhaps there could also be potential for a couple of promotions such as -

Well Drilled -> upon making a bombardment, a chance that the crew can fire off a second round.
Zone of Control -> chance of bombarding enemy units moving into an adjoining tile Grapeshot -> if triggered, unit loses ability to bombard but can cause collatorial damage to all melee units from an attacking stack
Mithril Springs ->increases bombard range by 1

The easiest way to do this would be to give them the bombing ability rather than (or,as I prefer, in addition to) air combat.

That'd be great... I've come to accept the way Civ4 handles siege units (it's not _all_ bad) but I still don't like it.

Would that need any python or SDK changes? (It's been so long since I used air units in Civ4 I don't recall exactly how they work.)

I'll make a module (soonish) if not.

Heh: Cannons (or whatever) as land-based "carriers" and cannon balls (or sheep, etc.) as the "air unit". And maybe an upgrade ("Fire me, boy!") that allows melee units to be fired from the... err, no. :)

Ooh, more stuff from Tarquelne. I love his stuff, especially the Calabim UUs for Assassin and Shadow and the Holy Warriors.

Would that need any python or SDK changes? (It's been so long since I used air units in Civ4 I don't recall exactly how they work.)

I don't think so. I believe all it would need is a <iAirRange> and a value and <iBombRate> value.

I haven't played non-FfH Civ IV in a log time either.

how about maybe a building that comes with one of the mid-game techs (smelting maybe?) that would allow you to build something sort of like the Blasting Workshop but something for all races to build. If this building is built in a city, then any Siege units built in that city would get a free dumbed down fireball promotion of sorts. I don't want all the races to turn into Luchuirp with free fireball casting units, but maybe a 1move and lesser strength fireball spell that the catapults could cast. Or maybe even a new spell that casts a Bombard Only fireball with 1move or 0move. That way you can effectively say its a flaming shell or flaming rock that the catapult is tossing out, cast the spell and have it bombard a cities defense for free, then follow up with the catapult as either another City Bombard or a Standard Attack. This would give the Catapult two things two do every turn, and they could Bombard with the fireball round and then bombard again or attack a unit and casuse collateral damage.

I don't see any reason to give siege units the ability to make fireballs, but a promotion that grants them fire strength could be good.

I don't see any reason to give siege units the ability to make fireballs, but a promotion that grants them fire strength could be good.Greek Fire (Patrian fire in Erebus).

I don't see any reason to give siege units the ability to make fireballs, but a promotion that grants them fire strength could be good.


I agree. Ya see, from my viewpoint, they should have the ability to essentially light projectiles on fire, as they often did in the middle ages (and numerous fanatasy books where a city is unner siege) by wrappin the projectile in oil-soaked cloth. A fireball doesn't quite reflect that action.

However, addin +1 fire damage does. I do think that havin siege engines with +1 fire should require a tech like Elementalism. My reasonin for that is otherwise it'd be too overpowered for most civs. Plus, you'd have the ability to build fire nodes anyway.

Alternatively, it could be contigent upon havin fire mana. However, that might require more complex code than the first option. But jus nother option, ya know.

I was thinking ti could require Fire mana, Elementalism, or be granted for free to siege units in a city with an Alchemist Lab.


There is a prereq bonus tag in the promotions xml already, which is used for all the first level spell sphere promotions (all levels in my version). There is no reason this couldn't be used for siege promtion that grants fire damage.

It might be good for it to give more than +1 fire strength if it requires a later tech/expensive building.



The one reason I might not add this in my modmod is that I was planning to switch siege units to using air combat, and the tags for typed damage in air combat don;t exist. (Neither does the ability to increase air combat by promotion)

1) I also like "most of wat you guys do" too, I was making a comment on an aspect of FFH by making reference to the Warhammer mod. I have only just started playing WH and this is only an initial observation. I must add that I am loving this mod. (thanks PL for your comments :) )

2) I intend to post about the Warhammer mod when I have a clear idea of what I want to say in regard to a full game, which I have not yet completed. I do not need people like you to insinuate if, when and where I post.

3) You didn't give better feedback mate. You just said "I like most of wat you guys do." If you consider that better feedback than my specific and constructive criticism, then bully for you, just go on believing it, and I'll keep on ignoring it. For some people, ignorance is bliss.

Yeah, no offense, I wasn't talkin to you; I was talkin to the FfH team (and Psychic_Llamas [a.k.a. PL] when I said I'd try to give better feedback and I meant better feedback on the Warhammer mod). And 2nd, you don't need to be a jerk and pick apart my post. (If I'm doin so, it's cuz you seem to be hellbent on pickin apart mine and tryin to insult me.) So, next time, instead of insultin me, come up with somethin else. Clearly, somethin I said annoyed you or pissed you off. If so, sorry, but I frankly have no idea wat could be so offensive to you.

That said, can we quit this Bullsh*t and jus give posts that add somethin positive please? After all, I don't visit this forum to be insulted. I have no problem if someone disagrees with my ideas, but they don't need to make it a personal attack on me. That's not wat this forum is for, ya know. So, nough of this sh*t; let's get back to addin constructive criticisms and positive solutions to problems that might appear.

The one reason I might not add this in my modmod is that I was planning to switch siege units to using air combat, and the tags for typed damage in air combat don;t exist. (Neither does the ability to increase air combat by promotion)

Damn. That's too bad. Oh, well, I spose you gotta sacrifice some things to gain others.

I dont agree with the OP that siege equipment is useless. To get a fireball using mage takes (me) at least 150-200 turns as i tend to go more economic path. Catapults are cheap both in terms of research and hammer cost, can be deployed in 50-60 turns if you beeline for them, require no resources and are much more effective in taking down enemy walls than a fireball mage. Compare 15%-45% defence reduction per turn of a catapult with promotions compared to a fixed 10% for magic users. I may have got the percentages wrong, but it seems that people want to fix something that aint broken....

And fireball mages require Fire Mana. Given the choice between Fire and Air now for combat (unless Luchirup), I would go for Air Mana, and just get a few Catapults to take down City defenses.

Perhaps people who think siege engines are still very usefull don't have enough Martial experience about the game...

What's the point of taking down the city defenses? After using spells like Maelstrom/Tsunami/Ring of Flames, I rarely see cases where I can't simply kill all defenders with 90+ chances even if the city defenses are completely up...
And until they get into the 98% range, you could just kill the rest with e.g. summons - after all, you already casted Maelstrom or Tsunami from two tiles away...

Maybe Catapults are better than I give them credit for because they are available earlier than said spells, but that's not true for the higher tier siege weapons. And if there's a case like here where a game mechanic presents you with a problem (e.g. city defenses must be taken down, or, more generally, city defenders must be weakened) and several choices (e.g. Priests/Mages/Catapults) and one of those choices is inherently worse (Catapults), then that's a balance problem.

Maybe Catapults are better than I give them credit for because they are available earlier than said spells, but that's not true for the higher tier siege weapons. And if there's a case like here where a game mechanic presents you with a problem (e.g. city defenses must be taken down, or, more generally, city defenders must be weakened) and several choices (e.g. Priests/Mages/Catapults) and one of those choices is inherently worse (Catapults), then that's a balance problem.

There are only two siege machine levels, Catapults (Trebuchets for Khazad) and Cannons (dwarven for Khazad), so in the beginning we are talking about only catapults, which do come earlier than any magic users.

There is more to these choices than just combat strenghts. It's also about which techs you chose to research and when, which buildings you make, which religion you choose, so forth and so on.

If one wants to concentarte first on economics, you might put off researching sorcery and strenght of will, but also possibly elementalism if your palace doesn't provide the necessary mana, leaving you without the magic users, and perhaps you don't want to use Overlords or Veil, which means no attack spell for your priests. It is all a matter of priorities. If your priority is getting the most powerful military unit so you can wipe other civs from the map, then goin for mages and certain priest lines makes more sense. That is not a lack of balance, since getting there is a choice made by the player with certain aims.

If anything, it's not that siege is too weak, but magic too strong. The range of Maelstrom and Tsunami's should be cut, and perhaps bring back some way late in the game to protect units inside cities from some magic damage.

Catapult/mage balance is fine. Catapults come earlier, don't need to wait for 10xp and are effective at what they do with their high retreat chance and high fortification reduction, they just move slow (which is realistic.)

What about allowing catapults to choose the type of damage they deal? I'm thinking of greek fire/napalm, Ice 9 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_9) type projectiles, cold Iron munitions or heck Pyre Zombies. :lol:

Projecting Goblin Saboteurs, destroys a building. Use the Trojan Horse to throw Nightwatch into a city to kidnap GPs.

Would be cool, all I'm saying. :goodjob:

Would be cool, but overpowered and impractical in the settin of FfH. So, I doubt anyone would consider doin it. Course, if ya do it yourself, then it might happen.

Catapult/mage balance is fine. Catapults come earlier, don't need to wait for 10xp and are effective at what they do with their high retreat chance and high fortification reduction, they just move slow (which is realistic.)

That I certainly agree with. I, unlike some others, still use catapults. Granted, I only attach two per army (my armies are usually like 20 units each and I tend to have 3; small but elite is my tactic), but I still find it useful sometimes. Plus, seige weapons only get better with cannons. And now with the battering ram for Khazad, it's even better. I jus wish there was more diversity in seige weapons.

Catapults don't really seem earlier to me. Of course, I tend to play advanced start games and try to get KoTE and build a Mage Guild Before the game even starts, so I can build the Catacomb very quickly. I also tend to try to get Writing and Education and buy Libraries (and so quickly build the Great Library) and Elder Councils so my research starts high. Construction isn't often high on my list of priorities.


Catapults aren't the only siege units though. Do you find Cannons particularly useful compared to the units at their tech level?


Logically, high withdrawal makes no sense for siege units. These are slow units may require time to assemble/disassemble, and so should have the lowest withdrawal. The only explanation for their withdrawal is to mimic ranged attacks. I think that using Air Combat models this much better. I'm also thinking that Bombing would work better than Bombarding.

What if ranged siege weapons got a 100% chance of withdrawal when attacking?

Then when bombarding, a chance for one of these to occur:

1) An X% chance of destroying walls and pallisades and such outright when bombarding instead merely nerfing the city defense.
OR
2) An X% chance of happycap dropping by one after a bombard attack. Would last for a few turns and could stack.
OR
3) An X% chance of sickness increasing by one after a bombard attack. Would last for a few turns and could stack.

To replace the promotions that boost retreat chance, create a new one that buffs the chance for a bombard critical.

There combat limits basically practically do give them a 100%.

I still don't think they should actually have a withdrawal chance.


If you use Bombing instead of Bombarding, I believe there already is a chance to destroy buildings.

I think it would be much too hard to try to make it decrease health or happiness, but using Bombing would mean that you could destroy buildings that had provided these bonuses.

Basically the withdrawal is a better mechanic for representing siege attacks. The attacked units always have a chance to raid the enemy camp and destroy or damage the offending siege weapons. Air bombardment is not a good mechanic to use for this as it implies that you need specialized equipment to attack the bombarding unit.

Yeah I know spell casters don't get counterattacked but it is implied that they cast one powerful spell and then retreat, whereas artillery would need to sustain bombardment for a while to do significant damage.