We could be arguing forever on Europe. Lets decide which idea is better.

Divide Europe into the most important countries. Those in the EU should share religion/culture and start with a defensive pact IMHO.

I agree with Lord Civius :). But split it into Spain, Fance, Italy, Germany and Balkans (Greece) at the most.

Heres my proposal:

Keep EU as the most important Euopean states, but weight it so permanent alliance is allowed between them, and when signed, the countries actually merge, so anyone playing EU would take control of all countries in it. this would mean an important challeenge for anyone playing Euro countries, uniting the EU, and would prevent an EU which existed at the start of the game from being overpowered.

any thoughts?

I agree with Lord Civius's idea. Though we would need to cut down on civs. We can't have too many civs. I propose that if we go with this idea, then we have the UK, France, Germany, and either Greece or Serbia.

@RedRalphWiggum
I don't think that countries actually merge when they get a permanent alliance. I just don't think its realistic. How would it prevent a powerful EU, it combines countries which makes them more powerful. Do you know how to mod that?

@RedRalphWiggum
I don't think that countries actually merge when they get a permanent alliance. I just don't think its realistic. How would it prevent a powerful EU, it combines countries which makes them more powerful. Do you know how to mod that?

I have no idea how to mod it, but it would prevent an ultra powerful EU early in the game because anyone attempting to play one of the constutuent nations would first have to concentrate on uniting the EU into one large permanent alliance... through dimplomacy, and by staying out of wars. I have no idea if its doable but if it is it should be done, would solve the dilemma and add a nice bit of flavour to the mod.

Having vassels would be the best way as it is not locked in as a permanent alliance is.

Make sure to give the UK, whatever it is represented by, a Defensive Pact with Canada, Australia, if New Zealand is in them, India etc.

The UK has a Defensive Pact with India??

I don't really think that Commonwealth should be shown in the mod, it's a traditional union not a military or political alliance...

I don't really think that Commonwealth should be shown in the mod, it's a traditional union not a military or political alliance...

I agree, lets not get too complicated where we don't have too.

[QUOTE=ijnavy;6989474]I agree with Lord Civius's idea. Though we would need to cut down on civs. We can't have too many civs. I propose that if we go with this idea, then we have the UK, France, Germany, and either Greece or Serbia.
QUOTE]
serbia will add flavour to the mod

If we are going to abandon the EU as a civ, we need to think up a logical way to represent it in a game situation. A defensive pact won't be enough to show the economic and political ties they have. Also, we haven't really discussed how NATO will be represented, but I assume it will of a similar, but not as strong, nature to the EU.

If we are going to abandon the EU as a civ, we need to think up a logical way to represent it in a game situation. A defensive pact won't be enough to show the economic and political ties they have.

Looks like EU with Vassals is ahead.

Also, we haven't really discussed how NATO will be represented, but I assume it will of a similar, but not as strong, nature to the EU.

All Nato countries could start off with defensive pacts and negatives for Russia?

My opinion is that there should not be any EU or NATO. They are just organizations.
I think that there should not be any permanent alliances, just make them be friendly with each other.

I think the EU should be a civ in this mod. Yes it's an organization, but the economic and political ties are very strong.
Furthermore it would be quite unrealistic, when EU-states would stay on opposite sides of a war and fight against each other. But when you split up Europe, that will occur nearly with 100 % probability sooner or later.

The EU shouldn't be as strong and united as the US, but it should represent a new (and maybe a little bit strange) form of an important global-player. Because of that I think the 3rd proposition is the best. It would show the massive inner problems of the Union and that it is far away from being a state like the US, but it would also offer (at least for the player) the chance to push the european integration and make Europe really a united power in the world.

I know it will be difficult to insert an EU like this in the game, but I think it would the best way to show the actual situation of Europe in the world (and that's the aim of this mod i think).

greets Ben

i voted for Nr. 3 as the most have done, also sweden is the largest nation of scandinavia

EDIT: not cause it's important but it could have been a vassal.

Actually I'd try to represent the "blocs" in the EU:

UK represents UK, Ireland and Malta
France represents France and Belgium
Germany represents Germany, Austria, Netherlands, Luxemburg and Slowenia
South represents Spain, Italy, Portugal, Greece and Cyprus
North represents Denmark, Sweden, Finland
East represents Estland, Lettland, Lithuania, Poland, Slowakia, Czech Rep, Hungary, Bulgaria and Romania

This way you'd have the economic and cultural zones bundled up a bit.

France and Germany should have very very strong relations, followed by very close relations towards UK, South and North. East should have only strong relations ... with a few Kashinsky events thrown in.

If you want to break it up even more, make Spain/Portugal, Italy and Greece/Cyprus separate nations, and you might also separate the East into three blocs (baltics, eastern and balkan). Scandinavia is culturally and political very close, and shouldn't be broken up at all.

Basically I'd go with either 6 or up to 10 "nations". Max would be:

British Islands: UK, Ireland, Malta
France: France, Belgium
Germany: Germany, Netherlands, Austria, SLovenia
Iberia: Spain, Portugal
Italy: Italy
Greece: Greece, Cyprus
Scandinavia: Denmark, Sweden, Finland
Baltic States: Estland, Lettland, Lithuania
Eastern Europe: Poland, Slowakia, Czech Rep, Hungary
Balkan: Bulgaria, Romania

Hungary should be placed with Poland and Czech Rep for economic reasons. Same about Slovenia and Germany (in reality Austria). Greece and Romania/Bulgaria don't have much common ground either, so don't stack them into "Balkan" together.

About the other states of former Yugoslavia (plus Albania), they should stay separate "minors" as should Turkey ... actually its more likely that the whole Balkan AND Ukraine will become EU members before Turkey I suppose.

If you go along the "central EU plus surrounding civs" version ... make the 6 founder nations as core EU: Germany, France, Italy, Netherlands, Belgium and Luxemburg.

about scandinavia i agree to some parts.... but then we have our national pride raaah! :mad:

I agree with Lord Civius's idea. Though we would need to cut down on civs. We can't have too many civs. I propose that if we go with this idea, then we have the UK, France, Germany, and either Greece or Serbia.

@RedRalphWiggum
I don't think that countries actually merge when they get a permanent alliance. I just don't think its realistic. How would it prevent a powerful EU, it combines countries which makes them more powerful. Do you know how to mod that?
SERBIA?!

Europe should be divided into the major players, but since when was Serbia a major player? Unless I am missing something fundamental about the nature of the mod.

UK/Ireland, France, Germany/Austria/Switzerland, Scandinavia, Baltic Europe, Balkan Europe, Iberia, Benelux, Russia. That would be my division of Europe.

The problem is that the EU is not an incredibly strong institution vis-a-vis nation states. I may, as I said, be missing the point about this mod entirely, but understanding the politics of it all, they can't even pass a Treaty properly nowadays, let alone organise an entire "civilization". From a geopolitical perspective the UK has declined in global importance since Blair left office (no bad thing as we are socially and economically in the state that Germany was prior to 1933...) but it still doesn't go along with the bulk of the EU and not to put either France or Germany in either would be tantamount to saying..."sorry, guys, Kazakhstan is more important than three G8 powers".

Given the size of Europe on a standard Earth Civ map I understand the problem but you cannot have a realistic game without understanding that the EU does not exist as a coherent geopolitical bloc which speaks with one voice. Each country still has its foreign policy and military under its own control, and although the EU has been trying on and off for twenty years to absorb those powers into a collective force, people for some reason keep voting it down (viz the Treaty of Lisbon as the latest failed attempt to create this superstate which would be a bureaucrat's wet dream but would utterly lack any semblance of public allegiance and no national leader would ever vote for in a month of Sundays). As someone who has been on both sides of the issue, and left the federalist movement after it displayed a woeful ignorance of basic democracy, I can safely say that any attempt to portray the EU as one single bloc is probably doomed to failure.

Crowqueen: I totally agree with all your points and concerning opinions about EU I am exactly in the same situation.

BUT we have to decide between two alternatives that are both not realistic:

1. Have a more or less divided EU as it is in reality being forced to unite other important states into one civ that are even less working together than EU member states or are even hostile. And it will be difficult for single European nation states to develop their actual political power due to their small size.

2. Have a more or less united EU and thus twist reality in Europe.

I think the solution with one EU civ and 2-3 civs that are Vassals to it is the best compromise. That way you don't splinter Europe too much and both developments are possible (EU growing together or falling apart).
My suggestion:
EU civ: France, Benelux, Germany, Denmark, Austria, Sweden, Finland
Southern Europe: Portugal, Spain, Italy, Greece
UK: Great Britain, Ireland
Eastern Europe: Baltic States, Poland, Czech Rep., Slovakia, Slovenia, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria

great but much of eastern europe doesn't belong to the EU.

great but much of eastern europe doesn't belong to the EU.

the states i mentioned are all eu members. but i agree that eastern europe is not a proper civ name.

the states i mentioned are all eu members. but i agree that eastern europe is not a proper civ name.

i didn't notice that the nations were the eastern ones that was in the EU whopps :lol:.

In the major points i agree with you ianinsane.

Yes the EU is not an international block with an united voice, but it isn't either an unimportant and weak agreement between national states which don't give up anything of their sovereignty.

First I was a strong supporter of mixing the whole EU together to one civ without any further distinction between the states. But good arguments convinced me, that this would be nice, but actually not show in any way the real working of the EU or its status in the world. So I am now a supporter of the 3rd proposition (I already wrote my reasons above). I only want to remind, that a divided Europe without any sort of European Union would be as unrealistic as one European-civ for the whole continent. Neither would show the real situation!

In my opinion there should be vassals representing the most important members ofhe EU and an EU-civ which holds all together (till somebody breaks away - or not).

1) France
2) Germany
3) UK
4) Italy
5) Spain
6) Hungary/Poland??? (an important eastern state)
7) Sweden

8) all other EU-cities which will be set on the continent will form the "EU-civilization"

In this way each big and important member state, respectively the culture area it "represents",would be there and if the EU should break apart, also the EU-civ could loose its cities to them. The other way around, it would be possible to make the EU an important and strong global player in the world, although with many difficulties and an complicated system of diplomatic-relations. Maybe it would even become wiser to let some vassals break away (for example the UK) to form a strong Union, depending on the diplomatic and foreign-politics situation.....

Anyway I think we should try to find a way to represent the EU in this mod!!!
I go along with any other suggestion (fewer vassals or blocs....) as long as the EU will be represented in the mod. I think it would be worth the work!!!!

we should not forget that some countries like norway isn't a member to the EU, what shall we do with them?

I will try to give as objective observations as I can without getting into my own personal world view.

Break up nations however is possible while keeping the number as low as possible (I see coming out with 9, counting Russia) without giving arbitrary names to blocs such as south and north. It would be extremely deflating If you were trying to conquer the world as Spain, had to settle with playing as "south", and ended up winning ("Oh, I just raised the flag of Southern Europe (?) over Quebec... Great...)" Anyways, who would control southern Europe? Italy or Spain? Bad Idea.

Also, having EU be a civ without controlling all Europe would be a mistake (option number 3). Having both the EU and partner countries co-exist would be a little wierd. Imagine; Germany tries to break from EU, but EU and friends re-conquer it. Now the EU directly controls Germany. Perhaps strange situations like that could be prevented through modding, but it seems like a whole lot of work for very little return. Anyways, a separate EU nation would be another nation to throw into the mixture. And arguing the bloc plan here has the same issues as I described in my first argument.

Separate nations seems the way to go, and maybe an EU nation If the mod is REALLY pressed for less nations.

And Ireland isn't in the UK.

I would suggest to keep UK as a separate civ, while the rest of EU as one. This makes sense because UK is not fully integrated into the rest of Europe, and also is a major player in its own right. So to keep things simple, Europe should be represented by:

1) UK
2) EU (possibly including Norway)
3) Eastern Europe (Ukraine, Moldova, Georgia, possibly Azerbaijan, Serbia)
4) Russia (including Belarus, Armenia)

In the lead, suggestion Nr. 3! tight onto it is Nr. 2! 3rd place Nr. 1! And at the last place Nr. 4.

I can see a way to do this

have the EU as one block, this will represent its huge economic power (2nd largrst economy in the wolrd after USA) but give them a small yet advanced military, the AI would have to build up military quite heavily to equal US\Chinese military power then, it would also reflect the real state of european armed forces, small, with limited power projection capability.
I would keep the UK seperate but in a locked alliance with the EU, this will reflect the ability of the UK to lauch offensive operations abroad (unlike most of the EU, save aybe france) aswell as their world wide commitments and treaty obligations:

Nassau agreement with US
Five Power Defence Arrangements with Australia, New Zealand, Malaysia and Singapore
The ABCA Program with United States, Canada, Australia and New Zealand.
British Military Garrison Brunei
British Forces South Atlantic Islands
British Forces Cyprus
British Forces Germany
British Forces Gibraltar

the treaties can be shown by defensive pacts with the US, NZ, Aus, Can, Singers & Brunei and also with +diplomacy points with all the above nations as standard.

Hi!

How about an independent United Kingdom? The European Union would be Spain, Portugal, Italy, France, Germany, Ireland, the Baltic States, Scandinavia, Slovakia, Hungary, Austria, FYR Macedonia, the Czech Republic, Greece, Croatia, Poland, Cyprus, Romania, Bulgaria, and all the tiny states.

Independent European states (Ukraine, Serbia, Bosnia, Albania (+Kosovo?), Belarus, Switzerland) would be just that-independent.

Theoretically, Albania and Kosovo could be merged, Belarus would be added to Russia, and Serbia and Bosnia merged. Wouldn't be accurate, but sometimes accuracy must come after gameplay. Ukraine should remain independent, IMO.

The UK would have a Defensive Pact and trade routes with Europe.

To make life easier, there should be an extra Civic Category: Globalization

Civics there would be "Limited Entry", "Free Market", "European Union", "MERCOSUR", "ASEAN", "NAFTA" and "African Union". Civilizations with the same civic in the Globalization column would have bonus trade routes with each other. Limited Entry-Civs would have normal trade routes, and Free Market-Civs would have 1 extra trade route.

One civ but with higher war exhaustion.

I think, building on Gooblah's idea, if it were possible to have a separate civics screen called, say, "International Relations", we could use that as the membership screen for these.
So, there's a "UN" civic group, and the options are:

Non-member
Observer
Candidate
Member
Permanent Member

That list goes for every other group. But, you can only see those civic groups that apply to you (only Europeans can have the EU).

Then, we can make it that you can only choose the first 3 options, and that, if you select "Candidate", it goes to a vote with the other members (permanent members have the biggest influence). If it's a yes, you become a member (from which you can only switch to non-member - high relations penalty). Also, it is extremely difficult to become a permanent member.

So, this is my idea. Consider it an extension of Option 2.

I think, building on Gooblah's idea, if it were possible to have a separate civics screen called, say, "International Relations", we could use that as the membership screen for these.
So, there's a "UN" civic group, and the options are:

Non-member
Observer
Candidate
Member
Permanent Member

That list goes for every other group. But, you can only see those civic groups that apply to you (only Europeans can have the EU).

Then, we can make it that you can only choose the first 3 options, and that, if you select "Candidate", it goes to a vote with the other members (permanent members have the biggest influence). If it's a yes, you become a member (from which you can only switch to non-member - high relations penalty). Also, it is extremely difficult to become a permanent member.

So, this is my idea. Consider it an extension of Option 2.

Great idea :thumbsup:! This will go under complicated features right?

Yes, for sure. It's not going to be easy to do ;)

well for Europe i think we should do the vassal thing. the EU civ i guess can include Belgium Netherlands Luxembourg and Switzerland, whereas the major vassal nations can be France, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Sweden i think, and the UK should be an independent civ. The capital of the EU should be either Geneva, Switzerland or Brussels, Belgium

Switzerland is not in the EU, and you seem to be ignoring a load of Central and Eastern European civs. ;)

i kno, switzerland is permanently neutral, my thoughts were originally thats load of intergovernmental orginizations have their base in Geneva, including many UN related headquarters, but ya, i guess it should just be independent. and no no, i didnt forget about our central and eastern european counterparts, i just resolved not to touch on them, because 1: I am not familiar on which countries are formally in the EU 2: I don't know much about the area so i couldnt say which countries deserve to be civs, but by all means central and eastern european civs should be in

About Eire: it IS formally member of the EU, they just didn't agree with the Lisboa compact. Eire does use the Euro though, and is thus more part of economic Europe then UK for example.

NikNaks:

I like the idea of a separate International Relations Advisor. Perhaps an extension of the foreign Advisor?

At any rate, we can still have all the Civs see all the categories. However, in each Category (African Union, ASEAN, Gulf Cooperation Council (?), Nato, European Union, United Nations), have an extra choice: Non-Member.

A Civilization would be locked into these Civics until an event formally changed them.

Yes, an extension of the Foreign Advisor is probably a better idea.

Non-member is already an option, but adding that functionality would be great :D

well for Europe i think we should do the vassal thing. the EU civ i guess can include Belgium Netherlands Luxembourg and Switzerland, whereas the major vassal nations can be France, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Sweden i think, and the UK should be an independent civ. The capital of the EU should be either Geneva, Switzerland or Brussels, Belgium

EU + vassals isn't accurate: individual EU members can make war without the EU being involved (UK: Falkland War, Operation Iraqi Freedom; France: interventions in African civil wars; Germany however seems only to operate within international orgs, like UN and NATO). Tricky stuff. (Even EU + allies/defensive pact isn't accurate...) An extension of the Foreign Advisor as suggested seems best, IMO.

In case that no one has sugested it: Why not make a second U.N. but for E.U., only European countries can enter.

Yes, that's been mentioned. I came up with that on the last page ;)

I think Europe should be divided into the most important countries. But these countries should be connected as a EU corporation. Some countries should be excluded though. Such as Armenia and Georgia. Some of countries with the EU corporation should be in NATO. Britain should also have a Permanent Alliance with the U.S.

To add to my last posting. The most important countries in Europe are: Spain, France, Germany, Italy, U.K., Northern Europe (Sweden, Finland, Iceland, Denmark and Norway) Benelux (Belgium, Netherlands and Luxembourg), Former Soviet Republics(Armenia, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania,Belarus, Moldova and Ukraine),Balkan Countries(Greece, Macedonia, Serbia, Romania, Bulgaria, Albania, Macedonia, Montenegro, Croatia, and B+H[Bosnia and Herzegovina]), and Middle Europe(Austria, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Slovenia, and Hungary) Kosovo, Switzerland and Ireland are Barbarian States. Georgia is a separate Nation with a small army. This organization of Europe simplifies things.

Crowqueen: I totally agree with all your points and concerning opinions about EU I am exactly in the same situation.

BUT we have to decide between two alternatives that are both not realistic:

1. Have a more or less divided EU as it is in reality being forced to unite other important states into one civ that are even less working together than EU member states or are even hostile. And it will be difficult for single European nation states to develop their actual political power due to their small size.

2. Have a more or less united EU and thus twist reality in Europe.

I think the solution with one EU civ and 2-3 civs that are Vassals to it is the best compromise. That way you don't splinter Europe too much and both developments are possible (EU growing together or falling apart).
My suggestion:
EU civ: France, Benelux, Germany, Denmark, Austria, Sweden, Finland
Southern Europe: Portugal, Spain, Italy, Greece
UK: Great Britain, Ireland
Eastern Europe: Baltic States, Poland, Czech Rep., Slovakia, Slovenia, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria

I agree. JUST STOP ARGUING. We will never get anything done. We need a compromise. Step up to the plate people!

In the major points i agree with you ianinsane.

Yes the EU is not an international block with an united voice, but it isn't either an unimportant and weak agreement between national states which don't give up anything of their sovereignty.

First I was a strong supporter of mixing the whole EU together to one civ without any further distinction between the states. But good arguments convinced me, that this would be nice, but actually not show in any way the real working of the EU or its status in the world. So I am now a supporter of the 3rd proposition (I already wrote my reasons above). I only want to remind, that a divided Europe without any sort of European Union would be as unrealistic as one European-civ for the whole continent. Neither would show the real situation!

In my opinion there should be vassals representing the most important members ofhe EU and an EU-civ which holds all together (till somebody breaks away - or not).

1) France
2) Germany
3) UK
4) Italy
5) Spain
6) Hungary/Poland??? (an important eastern state)
7) Sweden

8) all other EU-cities which will be set on the continent will form the "EU-civilization"

In this way each big and important member state, respectively the culture area it "represents",would be there and if the EU should break apart, also the EU-civ could loose its cities to them. The other way around, it would be possible to make the EU an important and strong global player in the world, although with many difficulties and an complicated system of diplomatic-relations. Maybe it would even become wiser to let some vassals break away (for example the UK) to form a strong Union, depending on the diplomatic and foreign-politics situation.....

Anyway I think we should try to find a way to represent the EU in this mod!!!
I go along with any other suggestion (fewer vassals or blocs....) as long as the EU will be represented in the mod. I think it would be worth the work!!!!

I also agree. People. PLEASE LET'S HAVE PEACE. Can't everyone just get along??