When making civ4 was an important design philosophy of firaxis "1/3 old, 1/3 improved, 1/3 new", civ4 was successful. I wonder if this shall also apply to the new colonization.

Just looking at the screenshots does it seem; that at least some things did change. The specialist bars under some Indian villages shows that at the very least the training of specialists in Indian villages has improved, it could also be part of a complete new mechanic.

I think it is also likely that that the combat mechanics of colonization shall change and shall be more like civilization4 it’s combat mechanics, the basic combat mechanics of colonization where more like those of civilization1.

I wonder if they'll even bother with unit promotions and stuff since combat took a huge backseat to building and trading in the original Colonization.

I wonder if they'll even bother with unit promotions and stuff since combat took a huge backseat to building and trading in the original Colonization.

There were only two military promotions for a colonist in the original Colonization--to Veteran and later, when independence was declared, to Colonial Regular. Those promotions helped a lot, especially the one to Colonial Regular because the troops from the mother country were plentiful and very tough.

A Dragoon was simply a soldier put on horseback with no promotion. Keeping your troops mounted was one of the keys to winning your independence in the original game.

Not focusing on combat made the game much better as far as I'm concerned and I hope this new incarnation is as close to being like the original as possible.

When making civ4 was an important design philosophy of firaxis "1/3 old, 1/3 improved, 1/3 new", civ4 was successful. I wonder if this shall also apply to the new colonization.

it's 2/3 old 1/3 improved, unfortunately. That is why we don't have Portugal in the game.

There were only two military promotions for a colonist in the original Colonization--to Veteran and later, when independence was declared, to Colonial Regular. Those promotions helped a lot, especially the one to Colonial Regular because the troops from the mother country were plentiful and very tough.

A Dragoon was simply a soldier put on horseback with no promotion. Keeping your troops mounted was one of the keys to winning your independence in the original game.

Not focusing on combat made the game much better as far as I'm concerned and I hope this new incarnation is as close to being like the original as possible.I agree to a degree. I would just like to see a little bit more diversity this time around. Promotions would help with that. I do not mind if those promotions would be less powerful than the civ4 ones, it is just that it would be nice to have more options than artillery or soldier. A dragoon is just soldier with horses so not really a variation, just a buffed soldier.

I wouldn't mind having slightly more options, but I would't know what those might be. Maybe promotions such as a slight bonus to attacking as a soldier gains experience, or maybe a bonus to defending if the defender has won several defending battles. Or maybe a defense bonus on hills as the [player wins several hill battles...

It might even be interesting to earn these promotions by doing the releated thing rather than leaving the kind of propomtion up to the player. This way you would gain a city garrison promotion by winning an x amount of battles defending a city.

I am onviously just brainstorming here, I wouldn't really know what to do with combat. I just hope to see a bit more variety, but I would be fine with things the way they are too.

it's 2/3 old 1/3 improved, unfortunately. That is why we don't have Portugal in the game.I guess that would still be good. I was playing the original to get in the mood, and it can really use a boost gameplay wise. (And graphic wise of course. :p)

I think the game is loads of fun though, so with a boost to the gameplay it would already be a gem. Let's hope we get a few cool ne features and you will see me drooling when it is out. :D

I'm not sure I liked how the orginal Col used horses as 'extra hitpoints'. I kinda hope for something different this time. The tactics of the time called for combined arms.

When I was talking about making colonization its combat mechanics more like civilization4 was promotions not the thing I was thinking about, but instead:

In the colonization combat system used battles only 1 random roll, this roll completely decided who would win that battle. In civilization4 do at least 2 rolls take place (when you win 2 rolls against a conscript unit) often do much more rolls occur. The result of this is that the chance that a low strength unit defeats a high strength unit is much higher in colonization then in civilization4. Civilization1 also used a 1 roll combat system.

New promotions would be nice, as long as they have their correspondent in a new colonist skill. Like having Veteran Marksman or Veteran Woodsman, and having the colonist that have those skills, when turned into soldiers or dragoons, have different bonuses.

New units would be good too, maybe replacing muskets and soldiers/dragoons with rifles and the respective unmounted and mounted units with the technology system it seems we have now.

New units would be good too, maybe replacing muskets and soldiers/dragoons with rifles and the respective unmounted and mounted units with the technology system it seems we have now.

Dunno ... rifles weren't really used in war in the 1700s, they were just hunting weapons. The first Rifle Corps was formed in 1800, and even then rilfes weren't really common in military use until after the Napoleonic Wars. Since the game's endpoint is supposed to be the American Revolution, it's outside the timeframe. The typical firearm of the American Revolution was the Brown Bess musket. Rifles were around, but they took up to a minute to load and did not feature bayonets; also smokeless powder had not yet been invented, so in battle, with the field quickly covered in smoke, the higher accuracy of the rifle wasn't really important since nobody could see their targets very well anyway.

The rebels used a few rifles for sniping, but it would have been a tiny tiny fraction of their forces.

Dunno ... rifles weren't really used in war in the 1700s, they were just hunting weapons. The first Rifle Corps was formed in 1800, and even then rilfes weren't really common in military use until after the Napoleonic Wars. Since the game's endpoint is supposed to be the American Revolution, it's outside the timeframe. The typical firearm of the American Revolution was the Brown Bess musket. Rifles were around, but they took up to a minute to load and did not feature bayonets; also smokeless powder had not yet been invented, so in battle, with the field quickly covered in smoke, the higher accuracy of the rifle wasn't really important since nobody could see their targets very well anyway.

The rebels used a few rifles for sniping, but it would have been a tiny tiny fraction of their forces.
Interesting, I never gave that any thought to be honest.

Even thought this may be the case, I think taking away the muskets or making them optional will seriously make this an entirely different game so it may be a good idea to keep them in anyway. We did not complain about it back in the day now did we? ;)

it's 2/3 old 1/3 improved, unfortunately. That is why we don't have Portugal in the game.

More like 4/5 old, 1/5 improved. :D

More like 4/5 old, 1/5 improved. :D

I think it should be like that even 5/6 old. We all liked old Colonization with nearly all features it has. I only want to see it with better graphics.

I'm disappointed that it seems to be a frozen-in-carbonite version of the original Colonization.

Aside from the obvious problem of Portugal's bizarre non-existence there's a few other things that could have been improved.

1) An option to play as one the native tribes, however difficult it is.

2) Make declaring independence an option which gives you certain benefits that make it worth the cost of the war but which is not required to win the game.

3) Better ability to continue playing after independence.

4) I loved the trading, resource system of original civilization. For me, that was the one thing that made it kind-of better than standard civ. Unfortunately, it meant that once you got a lot of colonies you got sucked into micro-managing hell and it stopped being fun. That definitely needs improving. I wonder whether something more closely based on games like the original Settlers would work better, with your people automatically moving things to where it's needed once you've established the trade routes. I'd love to see my people independently sailing about along sea routes which I then having to protect with my navy. You could design a whole new game on that premise.

5) All those manufactured goods should be useful in some way to the colonists who make them as well. After all, it's not just Old Worlders and Natives who like to smoke tobacco, wear quality clothes and drink rum. I didn't like the way all these industries became pointless once you had enough ore mines, blacksmiths, shipyards and armouries to not need to buy things from Europe.

1) What would native victory conditions be, and how do you stop them simply declaring war on the Europeans as soon as they land?

2) What would your other victory conditions be?

5) Gold counted towards your score, so the industries were not totally pointless, just usually the price dropped so far as to not be worthwhile. I guess you would need some sort of happiness/luxury system.

What I am looking forward to is:

6) Culture/borders - not having enemy dragoons camped all round your colonies during peace, and then fortified when war starts.

7) peacefully moving through neutral units.

What I hope to see is:

8) some improvement to the combat system beyond BTS, ideally entire stacks fighting at once, rewarding combined arms with a mixture of arty, infantry, and horse. Dragoons not simply being stronger, faster infantry with horses, as the war is just battle to keep your men mounted. I would make both dragoons and infantry the same strength, give dragoons their extra speed and bonuses to withdraw, but give them some disadvantage (no/reduced defensive bonuses?)

9) Custom house that can buy stuff from europe.

10) Some method of telling what native settlements will train and buy, without having to use a sheet of paper to track it.

11) Some method of repairing damaged arty.

1)
5) Gold counted towards your score, so the industries were not totally pointless, just usually the price dropped so far as to not be worthwhile. I guess you would need some sort of happiness/luxury system.




In colonization can you avoid the problem of having the price of your cash products drop by producting all 4 cash products(cigars, rum, coats and cloth). If the price of any of them drops shall soon the price of another one raise so your average profits shall stay the same if you produce all 4 in equal quantities.

1) What would native victory conditions be, and how do you stop them simply declaring war on the Europeans as soon as they land?

I would base this on the history, and chiefly I'd be using the Iroqouis as a template, since they are most amenable to fitting in with the rest of the game for various reasons - chiefly that they actually were a power player in the pre-Revolutionary period and made a near-succesful bid to remain on the stage.

At some point, you would develop an alliance with a European civ. Your victory would be in assisting your ally, the mother country, put down the attempted independance of the colony, which would leave you as a power in your own right. The colony would be AI, it would choose when to declare independance and it wouldn't do so until it was well and ready, so you wouldn't be in a position to take steps to thwart the rebellion before it happened. Basically your aim would be to survive the war of independance, possibly you could also choose sides and instead side with the colonists. Perhaps it would depend on some diplomatic factor.

In the meantime, you would be attempting to expand your territory the same as other powers - by defeating other natives and non-allied European colonies. Rather than developing specialists and building your economy that way, your efforts would go into controlling trade routes and developing an export economy - building trading posts at key locations, seizing trade routes from your opponents, etc.

As far as preventing natives from declaring war immediately, well, I wouldn't stop it ... but it would set you back badly. You would be contending with other native powers and it would be advisable to try to form an alliance with some European power as quickly as you could, else you'd be showing up to gunfights with a bow and arrow. It would be important to try to trade with Europeans before your neighbours (or not too long after they start). Native civs which immediately declared war on the first Europeans they encountered would probably be wiped out, either by the European power or by their neighbours. There'd probably only be one European power landing in your immediate area, so if you blew first contact, you wouldn't get another chance until it was too late. In the early game, you'd be more concerned with protecting your Europeans from other native groups seeking to cut off your source of guns and metal weapons.

All just off the top of my head ... there would be other ways of doing it, but that's how I'd do it. It's certainly not impossible to include them, that's just a failure of imagination, which is generally a bad thing in game design.

great ideas there frekk; would be great if someone modded them in

2) What would your other victory conditions be?

5) Gold counted towards your score, so the industries were not totally pointless, just usually the price dropped so far as to not be worthwhile. I guess you would need some sort of happiness/luxury system.


2) Be number 1 when the time runs out? Domination? Vast wealth? I was thinking the war of independence wouldn't be a victory condition at all. So if you do declare independence you can carry on when the war is over. Also you wouldn't need to retain all your colonies to end the war - if the mother country still has some they effectively become a new civ. Perhaps this particular idea isn't the best idea as far as gameplay is concerned, but it does add to flavour and the whole idea of choices and remaking history, which is what it's supposed to be all about.

5) True, but I never played for score anyway.

In contrast, I believe it will be nine tenths new.

The original game is after all positively ancient. It should be very easy to create a far superior game (richer, more complex, etc...), especially as the effort can build on Civ IV.

Being optimistic is nice, but current released reviews confirm at least 50% of old.

The old game with a new feature or two would be awesome, right? The gameplay needs an overhaul, maybe they can streamline hings here and there, introduce a new concept or two and voila, the game is ready to be played over and over again! :)

I'm really looking forward to this. Heck, the announcement actually made me get really back into Civ4 too and pick up the expansions, which I had not done before (too busy with work and anything Civ-like is really not helping ;)). Really glad they decided to re-do Colonization. I'm not fond of the name, but from a branding perspective it may make sense (not really sure about that as it also gives the impression that it's an expansion or a mod). I also feel that Col may appeal to players who may not enjoy Civ as much.

As long as they keep the good old possibility to sell the natives 100 tobaco for 2000+ gold I am happy! And of course the ability the remove one rival the first 20 turns by sending your lone soldier into his colony :lol:

On the serious note: I really liked colo in the begining when you struggle the get resources and enough colonists (with trade-ofs like let him work a mine or be a scout/soldier). So I hope they can keep the feeling.

After the early face the next "get a lot of money to by colonist, ships and artilery" was fun to but to much micro (and boring with the ower power native trading). So improvment is needed here. Going after the AI here was fun but with tons of land around rarely beneficial. That should be improved to.

And the war of independence was a joke. I always played on the hardest level and I can't recall ever losing one, so obviously a lot of room for improvment here as well.

But I really look forward to this game! Just hope they will rum COTM, that would make it perfect!

As long as they keep the good old possibility to sell the natives 100 tobaco for 2000+ gold I am happy! And of course the ability the remove one rival the first 20 turns by sending your lone soldier into his colony :lol:

On the serious note: I really liked colo in the begining when you struggle the get resources and enough colonists (with trade-ofs like let him work a mine or be a scout/soldier). So I hope they can keep the feeling.

After the early face the next "get a lot of money to by colonist, ships and artilery" was fun to but to much micro (and boring with the ower power native trading). So improvment is needed here. Going after the AI here was fun but with tons of land around rarely beneficial. That should be improved to.

And the war of independence was a joke. I always played on the hardest level and I can't recall ever losing one, so obviously a lot of room for improvment here as well.

But I really look forward to this game! Just hope they will rum COTM, that would make it perfect!
I seriously hope that they keep most of that stuff out... :lol:

The war of independence was pretty tough as I remember it... Of course there were those games where the first city that was attacked was situated just so, that when the opposing ships arrived, they stopped one turn short of reaching the shore, so that your coastal fortress could shoot them out of the water. The fleet would ALWAYS land the same way, and pretty much every ship was blown out of the water. Those wars were a breeze.

There were also those wars where a city was taken... Try to get it back with such a huge opposing army. What is even worse, you had to get it back before another nation gained independence... which was pretty quick, way sooner than I felt up to the challenge of facing the king's army.

Ow well, let's just hope they leave in most of the fun stuff. What really annoyed me, was that when you start a new game, you had to look at that lame slide show of your ship leaving the harbor, accompanies by that cheap text. You could not click it away, all you could do was sit it out, and it lasted for about three minutes, every single time. Let's hope there are no such nuisances in this version. :)

Ow well, let's just hope they leave in most of the fun stuff. What really annoyed me, was that when you start a new game, you had to look at that lame slide show of your ship leaving the harbor, accompanies by that cheap text. You could not click it away, all you could do was sit it out, and it lasted for about three minutes, every single time. Let's hope there are no such nuisances in this version. :)

Actually, that sildeshow was skippable.
But slideshow only ended after new map was generated and all other pre-game stuff the CPU is supposed to do (giving the illusion that slideshow can't be skipped).


P.S.
Same with wold generation in Civ1 (DOS).

What I am looking forward to is:

6) Culture/borders - not having enemy dragoons camped all round your colonies during peace, and then fortified when war starts.

7) peacefully moving through neutral units.

What I hope to see is:

8) some improvement to the combat system beyond BTS, ideally entire stacks fighting at once, rewarding combined arms with a mixture of arty, infantry, and horse. Dragoons not simply being stronger, faster infantry with horses, as the war is just battle to keep your men mounted. I would make both dragoons and infantry the same strength, give dragoons their extra speed and bonuses to withdraw, but give them some disadvantage (no/reduced defensive bonuses?)

9) Custom house that can buy stuff from europe.

10) Some method of telling what native settlements will train and buy, without having to use a sheet of paper to track it.

11) Some method of repairing damaged arty.

All of these are good ideas. I especially hated number 10. It wasn't just writing down their training but also the hex graph. But good news, if you look at the pics, you'll see that the Indian villages list what they train in their info bar!

I would like to see promotions, especially woodsmen and guerilla, since America didnt "fight fair" and used these guerilla tactics.

Actually, some sort of guerrilla warfare was implemented in original Colonization.

If you attack royalists when they are on defensive terrain (hills, wood), then you, as attacker, get the bonus (amush bonus).

Same effect natives have against your own troops.

All of these are good ideas. I especially hated number 10. It wasn't just writing down their training but also the hex graph. But good news, if you look at the pics, you'll see that the Indian villages list what they train in their info bar!

Awesome. I very much remember the pieces of paper mboza is talking about. What was even worse was forgetting to write one down, and then sending your scouts back out to scour the New World again, trying to find that one native village that knows how to plant tobacco.

"1/3 old, 1/3 improved, 1/3 new"? I guess, no. I'm starting to get disapionted, becouse of the lack of improvements. They even seems to have cutted the game: one preview says there are only 300 turns, another one said there will be only 2 levels of buildings instead of 3 like in the original. :(

Well, the previews/articles are a bit contradictive so far. I'd actually be happy with the "same old game" on a new engine. I guess that isn't true for everyone else, though. Less than two months and we'll have the game. I like the Civ4 engine, it works well on my system (minus the memory leaks), so I'm very hopeful. :)

The thing about gold counting toward score in Colonization is that it made me never want to spend it... like... any of it.

The thing about gold counting toward score in Colonization is that it made me never want to spend it... like... any of it.

Yes thought there should be something in the score that reflects your wealth, maybe can the total amount of gold you have earned be used rather then the amount you have.

Yes thought there should be something in the score that reflects your wealth, maybe can the total amount of gold you have earned be used rather then the amount you have.You can train specialists for your colonies, because specialists also count towards your score. In fact, the value of a specialist in points greatly exceeds the value og gold measured in points.

So saving gold simply because gold counts towards your score is very contra-productive and unwise. Hire those specialists you need! not onlyu will it boost your score, but it will speed up your development as well, saving you loads of time.

Yeah, most games have a system where each gold point counts as 0.1 score points. Each soldier counts as 50 score points, but only costs 100 gold to make.

5x the score benefit. Something like that.

Yeah, most games have a system where each gold point counts as 0.1 score points. Each soldier counts as 50 score points, but only costs 100 gold to make.

5x the score benefit. Something like that.It is even more awesome than that. 1000 gold converts to 1 point. A specialist is worth several points. It is a long time ago and I never really played for points so please for give me that the details escaped me.

The most expensive specialists did cost about 2000 gold if I am not mistaken. In gold this would be 2 points. You can invest it in an ore miner - the cheapest specialist for several points at the cost of only 600 gold. This way you can greatly increase the value of your gold.

If you choose not to milk it like that and actually play the game and hire the specialists you need, the conversion rate is slightly less favorable as the price of a specialist goes up while the amount of points received remains the same, but still you will be rewarded better by hiring a specialist than with hoarding your gold as a specialist is worth more than 2 points - if I am not mistaken.

Even if a specialist was 2 points it would be on par with hiring a 2000 gold specialist. So any specialist that is cheaper than that would be a good investment. This is of course unless rounding errors would advice you to save your gold. Rounding errors do not play a role if a specialist is worth more than 2 points, and I am almost certain they are.

But don't new specialist from europe decrease revolutionry rating (or whatever it's called)?

For the military side, more and different units would be cool, but I dont know how they would do this and keep the whole any unit can be anything which I love, its great how you soliders can build towns lol. Especially when your off killing the aztex or inca's, you get your wagon of gold get one of your units to build a quick coastal city and your mother country takes it all away for you.

1/3 old, 1/3 improved, and 1/3 new, for me is 3/3 new, because i never played the original before, and now i'm eagerly await for this one

Awesome. I very much remember the pieces of paper mboza is talking about. What was even worse was forgetting to write one down, and then sending your scouts back out to scour the New World again, trying to find that one native village that knows how to plant tobacco.

Only to discover that in the meantime, they had forgotten how to train tobacco growers and now offered to train a fisherman instead, heh heh. You must remember that bug.

Its worth noting that the American Colonies mostly won the War of Independence thanks to help from France (which is what makes modern-day anti-French attitudes in America so damned funny :p). Indeed, when all is said and done, the War of Independence really just became an extension of the Anglo-French wars taking place in The Old World. The reason I mention this is that I'm bothered by news that you can't make diplomatic deals with other Old World countries. Isn't that unfairly hamstringing the newly founded colonies?

Aussie_Lurker.

Actually, in old Col, after declaring independence, if you produce enough liberty bells you'll get reinforcements from one of Europian countries. For English colonists, it's usually France.

That was also the only way to obtain some Man-O-Wars for yourself. :D