View Full Version : The founding fathers


Zenon_pt
Jul 02, 2008, 01:09 PM
Does any one have the complete list of the Founding Fathers?
I remember: Pocahondas, George Washington, B. Franklin, H. Cortez, Fernando Megalhães.

Will the game have new "Fathers"?

How they will be "invited" for Continental-Congress?

Niptium
Jul 02, 2008, 01:30 PM
Yes, I think it's a fair bet that some old founding fathers won't be returning : Pieter Stuyvesant, George Washington, Simon Bolivar are now leaders and not founding fathers anymore.

There was some new founding fathers tha were named in the previews of late last week of which I can't remember.

Of the old ones I remember : Jan de Witt, Juan de Sepulvada, Jean de Brébeuf, Cavelier de Lasalle, Henry Hudson, Paul Revere, Magellan, Cortez, Pieter Stuyvesant, Pocahontas, William Brewster, John Paul Jones, Pierre Minuit, Thomas Paine...

Shurdus
Jul 02, 2008, 01:33 PM
From the top of my head I can only add Francis Drake...

As for the other questions, I guess we all know just as much from reading the press release.

Gaius Octavius
Jul 02, 2008, 02:59 PM
Complete list of the originals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonization_game):

Exploration
Francisco Vázquez de Coronado - Makes all existing colonies (of all European powers) in the New World visible.

Henry Hudson - Doubles production of fur trappers.

Sieur de La Salle - Any colony with 3 or more people automatically gains a stockade.

Ferdinand Magellan - All ships gain one extra move point, plus travel from the Pacific to Europe is sped up.

Hernando de Soto - All land units gain 2 sight points, plus Scouts will no longer be lost on "Lost City Rumor" (goody box) squares.


Military
Hernán Cortés - Conquering native villages always results in treasure and all treasure trains are transported to Europe for free, although you must still pay the prevailing tax rate. (Treasure must be taken to Europe to be cashed in and normally you must use your own galleon, or pay the Crown a hefty percent.)

Francis Drake - Increases combat strength of privateer ships by 50%.

John Paul Jones - Receive a free Frigate unit.

Paul Revere - Non-soldiers will defend a colony under attack, if there are no soldiers but there are muskets in the colony stores.

George Washington - Non-veteran soldiers are promoted to veterans upon winning their first battle. Also, soldiers who are petty criminals are promoted to indentured servants, and indentured servants are promoted to free colonists.

Political
Benjamin Franklin - Colonial powers will no longer go to war with you simply because of the political situation in Europe. Negotiations with other colonial powers are more favorable, and peace is always an option. (Normally, when the European nations go to war, their colonies go to war as well. Franklin is not always desirable, since the king gives you some veteran soldiers at the start of a war.)

Thomas Jefferson - Increases liberty bell production by 50%.

Thomas Paine - Liberty bell production is increased by a percentage equal to the current sales tax rate of your European parent power.

Pocahontas - Reduces all tension between your colonies and native villages, and reduces the rate at which it grows.

Simón Bolívar - The percentage of independence-minded colonists in all of your colonies increases by 20.

Religious
Jean de Brebeuf - All missionaries from now on become Expert Missionaries.

William Brewster - Player can select from a short list of colonist types whenever new colonists appear on the docks in Europe, which will not include criminals or indentured servants.

Bartolomé de Las Casas - All natives (currently) working in colonies become regular colonists (This can lead to a decrease in effectiveness for agricultural tasks, but an increase in manufacturing or skilled labor.)

William Penn - Increases cross production by 50%.

Juan Ginés de Sepúlveda - Attacks on native villages are more likely to result in a "convert" joining your colonies.

Trade
Jakob Fugger - All European boycotts on your goods (the result of Boston Tea Party-like dumping of various products) are forgiven.

Peter Minuit - Native land is free to use. (Normally, natives demand one-time payment for use of their land.)

Adam Smith - Factory buildings can be built, which generate 50% more processed goods per unit of raw material (compared to non-factories), but actually use less raw material to do it.

Peter Stuyvesant - Custom House can be built, which automatically sends any amount of selected materials over 50 units straight to Europe, without need for manual shipping.

Jan de Witt - Allows you to trade with foreign colonies, and adds information to your colonial intelligence screen.



Also, I wouldn't rule out the colony leaders being in the Congress just yet. Each game can only have one out of the two and it's possible that the other (or even both) might still be part of the list of choices.

Niptium
Jul 02, 2008, 03:05 PM
Which is to say that this game is VERY anglo-centric...

There could at least be as much Spanish and French colonial founding fathers as their is English ones... In the case of the Dutch, it's a bit more troublesome but I'm sure they could find other people like Pierre Minuit, Johan de Witt, Killiaen van Rensselaer (Rensselaerwijck's founder), Johan Maurits van Nassau (Governor for the WIC of Dutch Brazil), Anthony Colve (Governor of the New Netherlands during the 1673 return of the colony to the Dutch Republic), Cornelis Evertsen de Jongste [the youngest] (Zealand's Admiral during the Franco-Dutch war which lead the 1672-3 expedition against enemy English and French positions in the Guyanas, Caribbeans and then on New Netherland and the Newfoundland fisheries, he reconquered New Netherland from the English which was lost in 1664).

As far as the French are concerned, you could easily add Jean Talon, Gilles Hocquart (French intendants), Giovanni da Verrazzano/Jacques Cartier/Jean de Nicolet/Pères Joliette et Marquette/the LaVérendrye family (explorers that helped further French knowledge and control of most of North America, Lamotte Cadillac (founder of Détroit, MI), Jean-Baptiste Colbert (French minister of finances, industry and the navy Grand contrôleur général), Pierre Lemoyne d'Iberville, Montcalm (military characters), Kateri Tekatwita (Amerindian convert to catholicism in New France), Marguerite Bourgeoys (French religious), Jeanne Mance (founded the first hospital in Montréal), de Bougainville (French aide-de-camp of Montcalm during the Seven years war, subsequently lead french expeditions around the globe and founded a French colony on the Falkland islands).

I really don't know enough about Spanish America's colonial history to propose names though.

SkippyT
Jul 02, 2008, 09:31 PM
I never knew Pocahontas was a real person, but then I looked her up on Wikipedia and she was quite a remarkable woman! :o

cairnsy44
Jul 03, 2008, 12:13 PM
Which is to say that this game is VERY anglo-centric...

There could at least be as much Spanish and French colonial founding fathers as their is English ones... In the case of the Dutch, it's a bit more troublesome but I'm sure they could find other people like Pierre Minuit, Johan de Witt, Killiaen van Rensselaer (Rensselaerwijck's founder), Johan Maurits van Nassau (Governor for the WIC of Dutch Brazil), Anthony Colve (Governor of the New Netherlands during the 1673 return of the colony to the Dutch Republic), Cornelis Evertsen de Jongste [the youngest] (Zealand's Admiral during the Franco-Dutch war which lead the 1672-3 expedition against enemy English and French positions in the Guyanas, Caribbeans and then on New Netherland and the Newfoundland fisheries, he reconquered New Netherland from the English which was lost in 1664).

As far as the French are concerned, you could easily add Jean Talon, Gilles Hocquart (French intendants), Giovanni da Verrazzano/Jacques Cartier/Jean de Nicolet/Pères Joliette et Marquette/the LaVérendrye family (explorers that helped further French knowledge and control of most of North America, Lamotte Cadillac (founder of Détroit, MI), Jean-Baptiste Colbert (French minister of finances, industry and the navy Grand contrôleur général), Pierre Lemoyne d'Iberville, Montcalm (military characters), Kateri Tekatwita (Amerindian convert to catholicism in New France), Marguerite Bourgeoys (French religious), Jeanne Mance (founded the first hospital in Montréal), de Bougainville (French aide-de-camp of Montcalm during the Seven years war, subsequently lead french expeditions around the globe and founded a French colony on the Falkland islands).

I really don't know enough about Spanish America's colonial history to propose names though.

Marquis de Lafayette would be a good add to that list. De Kalb, Kosziuczko, as well.

Zenon_pt
Aug 15, 2008, 04:38 AM
Did anyone saw the pictures of the founding fathers (FF)?

Pedro Alvares Cabral in the Exploration FF!
Peter Stuyvesant, Vasco Nunes de Balboa, Gonzalo Jimenez de Quesal.

Niptium
Aug 15, 2008, 08:09 AM
Pieter Stuyvesant is a leader and not a founding father this time around.

Zenon_pt
Aug 21, 2008, 01:53 AM
Does anyone knows how many there will be this time?

For the pictures that came out, I have allready seen:

Alexander Hamilton: + 3 :hammers: per Town Hall (Trade FF)
Eli Whitney: +50% Conton In all settlements (Trade FF)
Lord Baltimore: Increse cross prodution by the taxe rate (Religion FF)
Addam Smith: 50% Fast prodution of textile mill, coat, rum and cigar factories (Trade FF)
Pedro Alvares Cabral: -50% Travel time to Europe (Exploration FF) (*Pt)
Gonzalo Jimenez de Quesal: Reveals all tiles with Burial Grounds and Ancient Ruins (Exploration FF)
Vasco Nunes de Balboa: + 25% Defence in all settlements (Exploration FF)
Juan Ponce de Leon: 2x as likely change to get Treasure from Ancient Ruins (Exploration FF)
Juan de Bernudez: + 1 movement for Caravel, Merchantman and Galleons (Exploration FF)
Gregorio de Mattos e Guerra: +2LB(Liberty bells) per church and +3LB per Cathedral (? FF) (*Pt)
Sor Juana: + 3 cross per church and per cathedral (Religion FF)
William Penn: +3 cross per town hall and strengthens relations with the natives (Religion? FF)
Herman Cortez: Free stockade in every settlement (de la salle's???) (? FF)
Diego Velázquez de Cuéllar: + 3 Ind. Servants (? FF)
Gabriel Lallemant: 50% Faster Production of Church and Cathedral (Religion FF)
John Harvard: Free Schollhouse in every settlement (hum... not bad) (? FF)
Paul Chomedey de Maisonneuve: Free promotion (Formation), Gunpowder units and +1 movement for converted natives

Radbout
Aug 21, 2008, 02:45 AM
What is quite interesting is that according to the review at jeuxvideo.com and PALGON also mentioned at the front page is that you will not be able to pick your founding fathers like in the original. Instead, you will accumulate points in the categories commerce, exploration, war, politics and religion, and accordingly will be awarded your founding father, not unlike the system of Great Persons in Civ 4. This enables you to plan your strategy by shooting for a certain Founding Father (i.e. by building churches or something, to get a religious advisor). I am really looking forward to seeing this in action, hopefully one of the reviews will show us an example of such a strategy.

Knut_Are_M
Aug 21, 2008, 04:37 AM
It is a race for the best founding fathers.
Each founding father requires a sum of points in thier'e category. The first one who reaches those points can choose that founding father. It is not random at all. If you kill off all your oppoents early, you will get almost all the founding fathers, only limited by the time limit.

Only 1 colony can get each unique founding father in each different game.
2 But unless you kill off your opponents each colony will allways get some founding fathers. But if you get more points in a specific category you will have the first pick of which exspensive founding fathers you want.

When you pick a founding father the cost of the founding father is subtracted from your points in that category.

Niptium
Aug 21, 2008, 09:34 AM
You have to add to the list :

Jan de Witt : -50% tools requred for buildings
Juan de Sepulveda : Provides 2 converted natives
Giovanni da Verrazano : Provides a caravel

Apocalypto
Aug 22, 2008, 08:39 AM
Hi,

Here are the ones I've been able to find (my original list is here (http://www.colonizationfans.com/civilization-iv-colonization/new-features.html).)

Adam Smith | 50% faster production of Textile Mill, Coats/Rum/Cigar Factories.
Alexander von Humboldt |
Alexander Hamilton | +3 hammers per Town Hall.
Betsy Ross | Increases textile production.
Bortolome de la Casas
Cyrus McCormick | Increases food and sugar production.
Diego Velasquez de Cuellar | Provides 3 Indentured Servants
Eli Whitney | +50% cotton production in all settlements.
Gabrielle Lellemant | 50% faster production of Church, Cathedral
Giovanni da Verrazzano | Provides 1 Caravel.
Gonzalo Jimenez de Quesada | Reveals all tiles with burial grounds and ancient ruins.
Gregorio de Mattos e Guerra | +2 gold per Church, +3 gold per Cathedral.
Hernan Cortez | Free Stockade in every settlement.
Jacques Marquette |
Jan de Witt | -50% tools required for buildings.
John Harvard | Free Schoolhouse in every Settlement.
John Smith | Bonus unknown
Juan de Bermudez | +1 movement for Caravel, Merchantman, and Galleon.
Juan de Sepulveda | Provides 2 converted natives.
Juan Ponce de Leon | 2 times as likely to get treasure from ancient treasure.
Lewis and Clark
Lord Baltimore | Increases cross production by the tax rate.
Marquis de la Fayette |
Paul Chomedey de Maisonneuve | Free promotion for gunpowder units. +1 mov for converts.
Patrick Henry | Bonus unknown
Pedro Alvarez Cabral | 50% less travel time to Europe.
Pocahontas |
Roger Williams |
Samuel Adams | Bonus unknown.
Sor Juana | +3 crosses per Church and Cathedral.
Thomas Hooker |
Vasco Nunez de Balboa | +25% defense in all settlements.
William Brewster |
William Penn | +3 crosses for every Town Hall. Strengthens relations with natives.


These are all based on previews and screenshots. For 11 of them, I have not been able to find out what effect they have. If you see anything missing or any mistakes, please tell :)

LingLinsRevenge
Aug 22, 2008, 11:43 AM
From this list, the founding fathers are wieghted towards English and Spanish, a few French, and very few Dutch

sorting list by Nationality

English
Adam Smith
Alexander Hamilton
Betsy Ross
Cyrus McCormick
Eli Whitney
John Harvard
John Smith
Roger Williams
Samuel Adams
Lewis and Clark
Lord Baltimore
Patrick Henry
William Brewster
William Penn
Thomas Hooker

Spanish
Bortolome de la Casas
Diego Velasquez de Cuellar
Gonzalo Jimenez de Quesada
Hernan Cortez
Juan de Sepulveda
Juan Ponce de Leon
Juan de Bermudez
Pedro Alvarez Cabral
Sor Juana
Vasco Nunez de Balboa

French
Giovanni da Verrazzano (Italian in service to French crown)
Gabrielle Lellemant (correct spelling is Gabrielle Lallemant)
Jacques Marquette
Paul Chomedey de Maisonneuve
Marquis de la Fayette |

Brazilian / Portuguese
Gregorio de Mattos e Guerra

Dutch or German
Jan de Witt
Alexander von Humboldt (German)

Native
Pocahontas


seems out of balance, given the four Nations represented

Apocalypto
Aug 22, 2008, 12:06 PM
You may be right, but so was the FF from the original version:

Out of the 25 total:

11 were British/American
3 Dutch
1 German
7 Spanish/Portuguese
2 French
1 Native American

I think a better way to categorize them would be in their respective areas of expertise: Exploration, Trade/Economy, Military, Politics, Religion.

Each category has 5 FF in the original - in other words evenly divided on categories and not nationality.

I think the Religious category of Civ IV: Colonization has something like 11 FF, and if there's about 52 in total, that seems about right.

I'll change the list so that it presents them under their category.

LingLinsRevenge
Aug 22, 2008, 12:23 PM
While such imbalances do not bother me, I like the notion that these games can serve to provide a broader view than the steriotypical history typically taught. (Elementary history taught in public schools around the world are biased toward the home country's mythologies).

While I do not expect Sid's Games to correct this, or present a balanced view of world history, I think they could and should balance the 'color commentary'. The nationality of the founding fathers have no game play impact that I am aware of, thus they can do a little research and balance them out.

If game play is involved, as you are noting, they are balanced. We should expect that --
But why not spend two man days finding 5 or 6 Dutch founding fathers, and a few more French.

Cannot hurt really, and it can reduce the US centric view, and teach us all a little!

for example --
From http://memory.loc.gov/intldl/awkbhtml/kb-1/kb-1-2-2.html#track1

Kiliaen Van Rensselaer

The patroon system was established by the Lords Nineteen in 1628 to try to stem the tide of returning colonists and to encourage settlement in New Netherland. Patroons--or "patrons"--were wealthy Dutchmen who were given extensive tracts of land, powers of local government, and some participation in the fur trade in exchange for settling fifty colonists in New Netherland.

The only successful patroonship was Rensselaerswyck, which was established by the Amsterdam diamond merchant Kiliaen Van Rensselaer in the environs of present-day Albany. Van Rensselaer sent colonists, tools, and livestock to the colony. By the 1660s, when New Netherland passed to the British, Rensselaerswyck had about forty houses and two hundred inhabitants. It extended over one million acres encompassing all of the present-day counties of Albany and Rensselaer, New York.

LingLinsRevenge
Aug 22, 2008, 12:29 PM
I see that there are 52 founding fathers -- of which 34 for are confirmed -- so maybe they will balance out

Apocalypto
Aug 22, 2008, 01:41 PM
I totally agree with you about the learning part! That's one of the features that made me a big Sid fan in the first place. I love history in general, so the quotes that appear with each new tech in Civ IV and all the info about techs, units etc. make the game educational and fun. I find the age of exploration to be especially interesting, which is probably what made me a big Colonization fan back when it came out, and ever since I must admit.

Of course game developers have to think about the general game player when they make these games, and so if you are above average interested in history (which I suspect you are ;)) then there probably won't be any big surprises. I can understand why they stick with the most famous ones, it would be kind of strange if they made 52 founding fathers that nobody have ever heard about. My guess is that they would try to include all nationalities, but ultimately, they cannot exclude the really famous and arguably most important ones, like Adams, Jefferson, Paine, Washington (though they've made Washington and Adams leaders in this version).

A have also wondered why Portugal was excluded, because historically they had an impact in that region of the world during this period. Their Bandeirantes went on gold missions in Brazil, which incidentally would make for a great "excuse" to introduce gold in the game...

But I guess they have to narrow it down ultimately, and the final decision is of course their to make.

LingLinsRevenge
Aug 23, 2008, 01:25 PM
I know that there are other threads where the lack of Portugal is discussed in great detail. Someone could make a case for the Swedes, (Delaware). But as you say, the designers have to draw a line some where. In my mind, while the settlement of Brazil by Portugal is important, I think of Portugal's Age of Discovery directed towards Africa, India and Asia. Also, the timing is a bit off. Portugal's Age of Discovery begins in 1415 with the conquest of Ceuta. (well before the game start)
The counter argument is that Portugal claims Brazil in 1500 (during the game time). But, if they add in Portugal, then I suspect that people would want the inclusion of Africa, etc.

Whether people like it or not, the basic mechanics of Colonization are very much based on simplistic notions about the origins of the American Revolution, and not at all based on the Dutch, Spanish or French situations.

For example, there is little representation of the social circumstances that brought about the Haitian Revolution, and I would be quite surprised if Toussaint Louverture or Jean-Jacques Dessalines are in the missing Founding Fathers.

As for your comment
A have also wondered why Portugal was excluded, because historically they had an impact in that region of the world during this period. Their Bandeirantes went on gold missions in Brazil, which incidentally would make for a great "excuse" to introduce gold in the game...

As best I can tell, the gold you refer to would be roughly represented by the explorers find gold from lost cities, and moving them back to Europe.

Granted, it would be nice chrome in the game to call out the Bandeirantes as special units that were very good at finding and recovering gold.

I am sure the the Mod Makers would welcome that suggestion -- is a good idea.

I am very much looking forward to the mod systems that will come out.

Speaking of mods.
I would love to see a mod based on the book 1491. If I had the time and talent required to do it, I would create a mod that starts with the continents much more crowded and the Natives much stronger. So much so that the European have great difficultly establishing colonies. Contact with Europeans spread disease, weakening the Natives. This forces the Native tribes to form alliances with the European Player against other stronger Native Groups.

I cannot imagine that this historical model will be in the game, as I note above. The traditional view is one of a sparsely populated North America. More recent research shows a different story, the central game will not have the nastier bits of colonial history. (i.e. Slave trade, genocide, depopulation, war against civilains, etc)

The designers have to market and sell the game -- too accurate a depiction of colonial history is likely to be considered too controversial, and, on some level, too sad for good marketing.

Apocalypto
Aug 24, 2008, 11:30 AM
You make some good points on the issues of not including Portugal and to have gold in the form of treasures from lost cities. I’m sure Portugal will be included in a mod shortly after the game is released.

About your modding idea: From what I’ve read, there seems to be a lot more emphasis on forming alliances and on the natives fighting other tribes in the new version, this of course causing the Europeans to get entangled in native conflicts. We’ll see how well this plays out in the game, but it seems like a major improvement.

I heard, somewhat to my disappointment, that they are not going to include random events like we had in BtS. I think their reason for this was that the game requires so much micro-management that it simply would be too much happening if they included it. I’m still hoping for it in a future patch or expansion -- players could always toggle it off it they didn’t want it.

I found this feature to be a great improvement in BtS. Events could be marriages between colonists and natives causing relations to improve, careless frontiersmen causing relations to deteriorate, sudden droughts causing food output to drop (times were, after all, pretty harsh back then). And how about Agueybana I (who believed the Spaniards to be gods) dies and his brother Agueybana II claims the throne, causing a massive change in relations with the Arawaks, and so on.

I guess we’ll have to wait and see. I loved the first Colonization, and I’m really looking forward to the new version.

Final note, I think we’ve made ourselves guilty of derailing this thread from its initial theme :hammer2:, which was the founding fathers. The list has 40 names now, btw. :woohoo:

Öjevind Lång
Aug 26, 2008, 04:51 PM
Does anyone knows how many there will be this time?

For the pictures that came out, I have allready seen:

John Harvard: Free Schollhouse in every settlement (hum... not bad) (? FF)

There are new schoolhouses in Col? Wow. I wonder what exactly they do. This is intriguing.

I think they could have included one or two Portuguese/Brazilian Founding Fathers (Dom Pedro I, for one), and perhaps Johan Printz, the first governor of New Sweden. He was rather autocratic, but the Swedes and Finns on the Delaware got on very well with their Indian neighbours, so he could represent a bonus regarding them. On the other hand, Printz complained in a letter home that many young men in New Sweden ran off to the woods (Swedes and Finns in those days being woodsmen themselves) and joined the Indians, so perhaps Printz should be a negative event. "Johan Printz has joined your colony and annoyed your colonists! Two of them have left their posts and joined the Indians - and they took their tools/muskets/rum with them." Er. Sorry, folks.

On the other hand, the Indians might get drunk on the rum the runaways brought and sign very generous deals with your colony...

Zenon_pt
Aug 29, 2008, 02:02 AM
From this list, the founding fathers are wieghted towards English and Spanish, a few French, and very few Dutch

sorting list by Nationality

English
Adam Smith
Alexander Hamilton
Betsy Ross
Cyrus McCormick
Eli Whitney
John Harvard
John Smith
Roger Williams
Samuel Adams
Lewis and Clark
Lord Baltimore
Patrick Henry
William Brewster
William Penn
Thomas Hooker

Spanish
Bortolome de la Casas
Diego Velasquez de Cuellar
Gonzalo Jimenez de Quesada
Hernan Cortez
Juan de Sepulveda
Juan Ponce de Leon
Juan de Bermudez
Pedro Alvarez Cabral (WHAT?)
Sor Juana
Vasco Nunez de Balboa

French
Giovanni da Verrazzano (Italian in service to French crown)
Gabrielle Lellemant (correct spelling is Gabrielle Lallemant)
Jacques Marquette
Paul Chomedey de Maisonneuve
Marquis de la Fayette |

Brazilian / Portuguese
Gregorio de Mattos e Guerra

Dutch or German
Jan de Witt
Alexander von Humboldt (German)

Native
Pocahontas

seems out of balance, given the four Nations represented

CABRAL WAS PORTUGUESE!!! NOT SPANISH!!!

You may be right, but so was the FF from the original version:

Out of the 25 total:

11 were British/American
3 Dutch
1 German
7 Spanish/Portuguese
2 French
1 Native American

Don't mix the water. Or it's Spanish or it's Portuguese.

Lubricus
Aug 29, 2008, 02:21 AM
So... No Minuit? And with Stuyvesant now being a leader, the Dutch are down to a single FF? That sucks.

Honolulu Blue
Aug 29, 2008, 04:10 AM
So... No Minuit? And with Stuyvesant now being a leader, the Dutch are down to a single FF? That sucks.

My guess is he's there, just not noticed yet.

Jerrymander
Aug 29, 2008, 08:06 AM
I don't think the Dutch had much in the way of people like founding fathers, so be happy you even have one.

TheMulattoMaker
Aug 29, 2008, 10:48 AM
A lot of those "English" FFs should really be considered American. Something like this was mentioned on a different thread somewhere, where George Washington and John Adams (the two English leaders) are seen as more American than British. I would say that Alexander Hamilton, Betsy Ross, Patrick Henry, and certainly Lewis and Clark (and probably some others) should be in their own category, as Americans. They just don't seem to fit with the rest of the English.

Lord Shadow
Aug 29, 2008, 11:05 AM
Well, they were born English.

But if the list has a Brazilian/Portuguese category, the English one should be American/English.

TheMulattoMaker
Aug 29, 2008, 11:10 AM
Well, they were born English.

That was the point I made in the other thread about Washington and Adams. But it just seems weird to have Lewis and Clark lumped together with the other Englishmen, when their moment of glory took place twenty years after the Revolutionary War. Heck, after the end of the game, even...

LingLinsRevenge
Sep 02, 2008, 12:11 AM
CABRAL WAS PORTUGUESE!!! NOT SPANISH!!!

Xenon -- of course you are correct -- sorry for the mistake. Do not have a cow, dude....


As for the English / American 'issue', it is not important, I think. All of the cited FF were English who became American -- That is the point of running statemen, is it not?
But there are some issues in the list.
In additin to the Lewis and Clark...
Adam Smith had nothing to do with the Colonies. Never came to the new world -- should not be in the game
Eli Whitney was not a founding father in America, he was a boy during the Revolution.
Cyrus McCormick was born in 1806, he patents the reaper in 1834. Out of scope to be called a founding father.

These are sloppy inclusions -- getting the chrome correct is the job of the game developer. There are so many Eglish founding fathers to choose from it is silly to have these in the game.

Zenon_pt
Sep 02, 2008, 01:16 AM
Xenon -- of course you are correct -- sorry for the mistake. Do not have a cow, dude....



MUUUUUOK!!! :lol:

Spain and Portugal are NOT the some. It's like saying USA and Canada are the some and Canada rules over the USA!

GoodGame
Sep 03, 2008, 08:55 PM
I think for the Natives, they should expand to at least the Northeastern indians. The problem is that the game doesn't cover the 19th C. and most others notable figures were loyalists (e.g. Pro-British) in the revolution.

I guess you could have say Chief Pontiac as a founding father and represent natives uprising that decrease the strength of the motherland's army.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chief_Pontiac

and maybe Chief Shingas as all friendly tribes temporarily levying an indian 'ranger' unit for your use. Perhaps disappearing after 20 turns? But this might duplicate the indian attacks that you can already provoke based on religious affliation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shingas

Hiawatha as the semi-mythical founder of the Iroquois confederation might have a similar effect. Maybe making it easier to provoke indian raids against your enemy? Or giving temporary indian 'ranger' units?



Native
Pocahontas


seems out of balance, given the four Nations represented

LingLinsRevenge
Sep 05, 2008, 10:22 AM
Zenon,
I said
"of course you are correct "
"sorry for the mistake"

It was a mistake. You have an apology.
WHAT ELSE DO YOU WANT?

And, I have sufficient self esteem that if some one compares Canada and the US, I do not whine and cry. (Frankly, I take it as a compliment these days.)

LingLinsRevenge
Sep 05, 2008, 10:23 AM
It's like saying USA and Canada are the some and Canada rules over the USA!

It is not like this at all. It was a mistake. Get over it.

Zenon_pt
Sep 05, 2008, 01:38 PM
To LingLinsRevenge:
There are some things in life you know that you shouldn't do:
Mix Diesel with Fire.
Never give a kniff to a Chinese.
NEVER EVER said to a Portuguese: Portugal is Spain!!! (If you don't want to live, that's your problem)... :D

simple as that...

:lol: ;)

Back to the topic.

Pocahontas? She will have the some effect as on the previous game?

Raisin Bran
Sep 05, 2008, 01:41 PM
There should be DeLorimier in that game

GoodGame
Sep 05, 2008, 06:52 PM
I think for the Dutch, I'd add this guy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piet_Hein_(Netherlands)

A successful privateer against the Spanish in the Caribbean and served in the Dutch West Indies Company with the rank of Admiral.


and this guy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maarten_Tromp

Another Admiral, but of the official fleet.

Both successful in defeating the Spanish and helping to free the Netherlands from Spain's domination. And the Dutch navy was very powerful during a good part of Colonization's time, but declined over multiple wars against the English, across about a century. So they would be good representation of actual history.

Niptium
Sep 05, 2008, 10:25 PM
There should be DeLorimier in that game

De Lorimier - well - I know where you come from but he was a leader of the 1837 rebellion against GB. I don't know - but if Lewis and Clark are there why not De Lorimier...

Niptium
Sep 05, 2008, 10:30 PM
I think for the Dutch, I'd add this guy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piet_Hein_(Netherlands)

A successful privateer against the Spanish in the Caribbean and served in the Dutch West Indies Company with the rank of Admiral.


and this guy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maarten_Tromp

Another Admiral, but of the official fleet.

Both successful in defeating the Spanish and helping to free the Netherlands from Spain's domination. And the Dutch navy was very powerful during a good part of Colonization's time, but declined over multiple wars against the English, across about a century. So they would be good representation of actual history.

I wouldn't add either Martin Tromp or Piet Heyn - nor Michiel de Ruyter. It would be better to actually get some Dutchmen who had a personnal doing into Colonial efforts. Take for example Zealand's admiral, Evertsen de Jongst, who recaptured New Netherland from the English in 1673... that would be a better choice... Or Killian van Rensselaer who founded the patroonship of Rensselaerwijck around Fort Orange (Albany). Anthony Colve, the last Dutch governor of New Netherland (1673) would also make a better stand than these two early 1600th Century Dutch naval officers...

phoenix_sprite
Sep 10, 2008, 07:02 PM
Needs more French.

Öjevind Lång
Sep 11, 2008, 05:02 PM
Why didn't they include Anne Hutchinson and let her give a bonus for religious toleration? She deserved to be in, and she truly was an important character in the early history of what would later become the United States.

Lord Shadow
Sep 11, 2008, 07:53 PM
I guess there are plenty of English/Americans FFs as it is. :p

TheDS
Sep 12, 2008, 11:49 AM
I'm surprised there's no roar of sexism. Two entire women? (Forgive my not being able to tell if some names are female, there could be 3 or 4.)

Niptium
Sep 12, 2008, 12:17 PM
The number of Dutchmen and Frenchmen in there is scandalous.

Lord Shadow
Sep 12, 2008, 01:52 PM
I'm surprised there's no roar of sexism. Two entire women? (Forgive my not being able to tell if some names are female, there could be 3 or 4.)
As far as I know, other than queens, the vast majority of women didn't have major roles in that time period.

Öjevind Lång
Sep 12, 2008, 07:40 PM
As far as I know, other than queens, the vast majority of women didn't have major roles in that time period.

Anne Hutchinson mattered. They could have found place for her by removing some other English foundig father, for example Cyrus McCormick, who anyway did not belong to the colonial or revolutionary period at all.

Zenon_pt
Sep 24, 2008, 03:18 PM
I see Apolyton have all FF on this Civ Colonization.
And Colombo and Magalhães, they aren't there!