As a huge Colonization fan (I actually still play a game now and then) I was a bit disappointed after reading gamespots latest review...

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/sidmeierscivilizationivcolonization/news.html?sid=6193071&part=r

Im hoping that the balance factor is still in the works for an Americas map and J Miller at Gamespot just didnt have access to it in with the demo they provided. Not having a historic representation of the New World is about as huge an omission as one could make in a game like Colonization.

My first thought is that it will be there and not to panic, the guy just didnt investigate properly and get a confirmation. Having said that, if it is true, then we will have to rely on the community here at large to provide one. That thought is not entirely a bad option, modders here do a lot of awesome work, but it still leaves a little bad taste in the ol mouth.

So even if things dont pan out and we get a game I would consider "incomplete", at least the editor is present from the get go and we will all be very familiar with its use (Civ IV style).

If there is anyone out there with confirmation one way or another, any info would be appreciated :)

MadMal

I heard this but I just cannot imagine that this is true. the entire premise of the game is to colonise the americans, the random map is only to make it replayable. It cant be right.

Yupz!!
I was very shocked when i read if there is just a random map available.

But, please!!
This is game focusing about colonizing america, the new world
Not colonizing a random island

Im hoping that the balance factor is still in the works for an Americas map and J Miller at Gamespot just didnt have access to it in with the demo they provided. Not having a historic representation of the New World is about as huge an omission as one could make in a game like Colonization....

If there is anyone out there with confirmation one way or another, any info would be appreciated :)

MadMal

Reading the article I see:

...this version uses the Civ IV engine and focuses on the settlement of the New World....

That was reassuring as I have always equated the "New World" to be synonymous with North and South America. However, later in the article I read:

....The game is also played out on randomly generated maps as per past Civ games, which is too bad. A real-world Manifest Destiny mode on a geographically accurate map, on which colonies would each have to race to dominate the Americas, would have been a fun idea. Such geography remains reserved for the Total War franchise, but at least Colonization will ship with a nifty map editor.....

Since in the original Colonization the player was given the option to play on either a map of the Americas or on a random map, I had assumed Civilization IV: Colonization would offer the same options. Surely Jon Miller's sneak peek of the game didn't afford him the opportunity to play on a map of the Americas. After all, that's what the original game was all about--colonizing the Americas. :gp:

I'm guessing they'll make one by the time of release, à la Alpha Centauri (to refresh your memory, you had a choice of playing on the 'true' map of planet or a randomly-generated one). They seem to be putting quite a lot of effort into this, and they're probably just focusing on the game itself before creating a map.

If they don't put this in, I guarantee it will modded on the day of release. :lol: Even if there are no set map scenarios, there will be a map script that exactly recreates the Americas. Fear not.

EDIT: You will probably have like 10 versions of the Americas in the first month.

Yeah, I'd say you're right. If they don't give one, there will be one made by somebody quickly. And then they will probably put together an Africa mod and a India one too.

Dale is already getting together a mod project for Colonization and if no one else makes one, he will. :) I personally will also guarantee a that map of the Americas will be out shortly after release, even if I have to make it myself. No doubt there will be room to improve on any map Firaxis includes anyway -- larger sizes, more detail, etc.

wasn't the original Earth map included in Civ just Rhye's map? So in reality Civ 4 didn't really ship with a Firaxis-made map.

Some previews mention that colonization shall have a map editor. If they already have a map editor won't making an American map take them long, it doesn't seem me like something that requires a lot of development time. If so many fans can be made really happy with something that requires only a very small amount of development time, don't I understand why they wouldn't include it.

Maybe because a premade map gives the player a huge edge against the AI: the play shall right from the start know where the treasure rich Inca/Aztec cities are, he shall know where to find certain resources, which regions are ideal for cotton/tobacco/sugar and furs production.

If they don't put this in, I guarantee it will modded on the day of release. :lol: Even if there are no set map scenarios, there will be a map script that exactly recreates the Americas. Fear not.

EDIT: You will probably have like 10 versions of the Americas in the first month.
Indeed. Within a week it will be available, whether the game ships with it or not.

To be honest, I don't like playing with the America map because there's no real exploration. I prefer random maps because you never really know where anything is.

I doubt there won't be one included in the actual release. Just because the preview didn't have one doesn't mean the release won't. It'll probably be one of the last touches.

It would be literally insane not to have the default map as the Americas.

I can't believe 2K would be that stupid.....

Oh, wait a minute......

They probably have decided to skipp out the Americas map because of that increadible "The game is rassist" BS.

The game lets you be just as racist with the other civs.

They probably have decided to skipp out the Americas map because of that increadible "The game is rassist" BS.

Doubtful. We still have historic European colonist countries and native American tribe names set firmly in the un-modified game no matter what map you use. Nobody would be fooled by the lack of an actual Americas map.

Either way, if CivCol does not bring a Americas map, I'll simply trim RFC one and port it there :p Child's play, if you ask me....

But making a game about the European Colonization of the Americas without a RL Americas map ... :crazyeye:

It's quite curious. From what the article says we can not 'create' Mexico, as was in the traditional old game with the Spanish, but give the opportunity to create the Gran-Colombia and Argentina -two South American states.
And now here's my question - WHY DIDN'T THEY ADD PORTUGAL TO 'CREATE' BRAZIL?

I guess we just need few days until someone make those map to us.
This forum is full of creative and high skilled peoples

It's quite curious. From what the article says we can not 'create' Mexico, as was in the traditional old game with the Spanish, but give the opportunity to create the Gran-Colombia and Argentina -two South American states.
And now here's my question - WHY DIDN'T THEY ADD PORTUGAL TO 'CREATE' BRAZIL?

A point about the whole Portugal thing - if this is going to be as moddable as Civ4, some modder will probably quickly make a portugal mod (along with possibly the Germans, Ottomans e.t.c.).

I think it is silly of Firaxis not to include an Americas map with Colonization (if it's true). It really does take out the realism (and fun) by having some fictional continent to colonise. But as someone else said, we'll have 20 or so custom American scenarios available in the first month, so nothing really to get upset about.

My first game is going to be on an American map, however. ;) So somebody better make a good one as soon as it's released. :D

I think it is silly of Firaxis not to include an Americas map with Colonization (if it's true). It really does take out the realism (and fun) by having some fictional continent to colonise. But as someone else said, we'll have 20 or so custom American scenarios available in the first month, so nothing really to get upset about.

My first game is going to be on an American map, however. ;) So somebody better make a good one as soon as it's released. :D

Where's the realism in knowing where everything is?

Where's the realism in knowing where everything is?Well, where is the realism in reenacting the colonization of America if it isn't in fact taking place on a map of America? But maybe you really meant 'Where is the challenge?' ?

Where's the realism in knowing where everything is?

In the original Colonization, you have the option of playing on a random map if you don't want to play on a map of the Americas. I expect the same option will exist in the new version.

Colonizing a random map IS far, far more realistic than colonizing a map of the Americas. The explorers and early colonists had no idea what lay beyond the next cape or over the next hill. You do. You know sailing up up the St. Lawrence will get you to the Great Lakes and not the Orient. You recognize the strategic importance of Panama at the very outset. Do you beeline at turn one towards Incan lands to plunder their lands for gold? To the big proponents of an Americas map, please don't tell me you are conducting a realistic re-enactment of the colonization of America just because you are playing on a map of the western hemisphere. To me, that is self deception.

Give me a random map any day. I much prefer the adventure at the start of a Colonization or Civilization game where each step (move) is into the unknown. That is, in a very small and vicarious way, a recreation of the spirit of exploration and colonization. It is part of the reason for the success of the Civilization series as well.

But to each their own. I may play the Americas map once or twice. For those who think the game is only worth playing on a map of the Americas, go right ahead. I challenge you to play it exclusively, (because otherwise it wouldnt be realistic). After you the play the map as the English, the French, the Dutch, and the Spanish a few times, then what? Even if you could play the same map as the Portuguese, I suspect even our Portuguese friends would get very bored, very soon.

Panzeh pretty much said it all with his post: "Where's the realism in knowing where everything is?"

Where's the realism in knowing where everything is?

I imagine most people don't know where everything is. Do you know every geographic feature of the continent? :mischief:

I only have a vague idea of the shape of America, that's it. Probably because I live in Australia and America doesn't interest me (I prefer Europe and Asia over Australia and America.)

So when I play Colonization I think it will definitely be more realistic to be playing on America rather than some random map. But after you've played the American map a couple of times, I think most people will want to try out the random map feature for a change.

[QUOTE=Chuggi;7021904]Do you know every geographic feature of the continent? :mischief:QUOTE]

I certainly don't, and I consider myself a geographer. But it won't take more than a few times playing the same map, before I will know that particular map thoroughly. And if I'm so inclined, I can replay that map, knowing all its inherent strengths and weaknesses, and exploit it following a predetermined series of steps. Boring...

I certainly don't, and I consider myself a geographer. But it won't take more than a few times playing the same map, before I will know that particular map thoroughly. And if I'm so inclined, I can replay that map, knowing all its inherent strengths and weaknesses, and exploit it following a predetermined series of steps. Boring...

Exactly my point. You play the real map for your first game, and then you play random maps until you forget it, and then you can play on the American continent again.

Or, if you rather, you can play the same map over and over so you can exploit it.

It's just like regular Civ IV, I've played many, many random maps, but I've only played the Earth map a couple of times. The games I had on the Earth map, however, were really fun and memorable.

But it's silly of Firaxis not to include a map of the Americas with Colonization, which is why I believe that it will ship with an American map - for the people that want to play on it (which is most people.)

For realism in the sense of exploring a never-before-seen land then yes - you need a random map every time you play.

However, for realism in the sense of attempting to rewrite history of the colonization of the real Americas then you can't acheive that without a decent premade map of the real Americas.

It's probably going to be a scenario like the current Civ IV america. And scenarios are probably not the kind of the thing they put into a Demo months before the game is released.

They'll probably just add an Americas map later. You can't have an alternative history scenario without an accurate map, that would be crazy.

There will be a number of pre-made maps included with the game, so you guys don't need to worry. :)

Jon

There will be a number of pre-made maps included with the game, so you guys don't need to worry. :)

Jon

Nice of you to drop by, Jon (you are always Trip in my mind!). Any idea when we might get more info from Firaxis, like an official website or screenshots? ;)

Nice of you to drop by, Jon (you are always Trip in my mind!). Any idea when we might get more info from Firaxis, like an official website or screenshots? ;)
Afraid not. I only worked on Colonization for a brief period of time near the beginning of development, so the plans they have for it are a mystery to me as well. ;)

Jon

Colonizing a random map IS far, far more realistic than colonizing a map of the Americas.

You have to take into account that the average idiot barely knows anything about America. People from the US only see Canada and Mexico as the only recognizable countries in their minds, and everybody else is either a Canadian or a Mexican (even if the person is from another country). People from the rest of the world (mainly Europe) see anything related to America to simply the United States (hence you get all those ridiculous movies with the classic European immigrant constantly mentioning the US as if it were all of America); everything else is a mystical jungle in their mind.

Of course, for those of us who know how America looks, the map would be no secret...:lol:

Nonetheless, I still would have more fun playing in an American map than in a random map. :crazyeye:

Jay Leno on the Tonight show once asked people on the street to point out the US on a world map. One guy confidently pointed at Siberia :D

. People from the rest of the world (mainly Europe) see anything related to America to simply the United States (hence you get all those ridiculous movies with the classic European immigrant constantly mentioning the US as if it were all of America); everything else is a mystical jungle in their mind.
As a native of a European country, I beg to difer ;) The example you quoted is about what the Americans think that the Europeans know ( and Freud would explain quite nicely that as mirroring ;) ) :p I highly doubt that a Portuguese will confuse Brazil with colombia, that a Spanish will confuse Cuba with Guetemala ; that a englishman will confuse Canada with Peru or that a French will confuse Quebec with Chile.......

The example you quoted is about what the Americans think that the Europeans know ( and Freud would explain quite nicely that as mirroring )

You know, I thought that too. Sadly, and I really mean sadly, it's true for the most part.

Of course, as with all stereotypical things, there are some exceptions, but for the most part people do act that way...it's really ridiculous, but funny. :mischief:

I highly doubt that a Portuguese will confuse Brazil with colombia

Aside from knowing where Brazil is at, the Portuguese would then confuse Bolivia with Peru, Colombia with Venezuela, etc.

that a Spanish will confuse Cuba with Guetemala

Lol. I can tell you with certainty that most Spaniards barely know any of the nations that became independent from them. Moreover, the royalty still sees them as colonies. :crazyeye:

that a englishman will confuse Canada with Peru or that a French will confuse Quebec with Chile

The same as with the above, an Englishman would only know about the existance of their own (Canada and the U.S.), but they probably wouldn't be able to point them in a map.

The Canada-Peru flag confusion constantly happens. It's the Canadian's fault, though. Peru's flag is older. :rolleyes:

The French probably only know about Quebec and their Guiana. If you can find one that can effectively point the location of Haiti (a past French colony), I'd be surprised.



I know the truth hurts, but the facts always come to show that the average person is...well...stupid. Most of the Europeans I've met fit that description like a hand in a glove; with the exception from my friends. The average person from America (the continent) is just as stupid about Europe and the rest of the world. :lol:

I highly doubt that Portuguese would confuse Venezuela with Colombia, given that a 1 million of Portuguese and Portuguese descendants live in Venezuela ( I have some family there ;) )...

But I'm really not the "average" ( whatever that means ) person regarding maps ( I can draw a quite accurate world map from memory )... so I'll not talk of myself ;)

-3



a) Aside from knowing where Brazil is at, the Portuguese would then confuse Bolivia with Peru, Colombia with Venezuela, etc.

b) I can tell you with certainty that most Spaniards barely know any of the nations that became independent from them. Moreover, the royalty still sees them as colonies. :crazyeye:

c) The Canada-Peru flag confusion constantly happens. It's the Canadian's fault, though. Peru's flag is older. :rolleyes:


a) Not a change. Like r_rolo1 said, there are great portuguese communit there in Venezuela.

b) Perhaps it is a matter of LOST pride. But I think they know here is Cuba, Colombia, Venezuela (purque ñ te calas :lol: ), Argentina, Mexico, et all.

c) I think the leaf says it all.

I like the Americas map better than most randoms in Col because it just makes sense. There isn't one single random desert square in the middle of the grasslands, etc.

It's a problem I have with Civ IV too, but I deal with it easily enough.... :)

Not a change. Like r_rolo1 said, there are great portuguese communit there in Venezuela.

And yet they would still confuse Venezuela and Colombia.

I mean, you can know the name, but the location is often a problem for people. :sad:

I once met a guy who though Czechoslovakia, the Czech Republic, and Slovakia still all existed in Europe. He even pointed their locations out and tried to make me seem like the stupid one. :rolleyes:

People are just like that...

But I think they know here is Cuba, Colombia, Venezuela (purque ñ te calas ), Argentina, Mexico, et all.

I bet they know the names, but not their locations. :crazyeye:

c) I think the leaf says it all.

The Peruvian shield looks nicer than the leaf. :lol:

I like the Americas map better than most randoms in Col because it just makes sense. There isn't one single random desert square in the middle of the grasslands, etc.

It's a problem I have with Civ IV too, but I deal with it easily enough.... :)

If a map script is done well, it's nice to have no pre-knowledge of the map. Check out PerfectWorld(link in my sig) I suspect it might be what you're looking for in a random map. The link is to the download, but in the description theres a link to a thread with some screenshots.

It was good to hear from Mr. Shafer that premades are in. Like many of you out there, playing on an Americas map is a part of the game that I feel should be included. I know Jon didnt specify that a historicaly representative map was included, but if the devs have a decent reason for not including one, I can stomach the ommision. As I said before, there are some fantastic modders out there (some of you reading this now) and as a community, we can take care of ourselves if neccessary. I have a feeling though that they are aware that its a huge risk to put out a game like this and not have a historic map. As a reviewer, the first thing I would look for would be to play on such a map.

I would like to say to Jon though, if hes still reading. Take a nice fresh box of donuts and place it strategically in a central location near the cubicles of those working on C4:C, then while the natural migration of the herd moves to consume the bait, quickly peruse through some PC's and email us some more screen shots. Maybe a picture or two of some of the maps we might see ;)

Oh and just a note. Im not sure how many of you still play the original, but even the Americas maps had some random placement of bonus tiles and such. Starting locations were also a bit random, though it depends more on the difficulty level than a true random drop. So no game is ever quite the same and I often place cities in different strategic locations.

Well all this talk has me itching for a game so I think I will go have at the Spaniards with some Veteran Dutch dragoons. :)

MM

There will be a number of pre-made maps included with the game, so you guys don't need to worry. :)

Jon

Great news!:goodjob:

Someone should probably update the first post with this! :D

I know the truth hurts, but the facts always come to show that the average person is...well...stupid. Most of the Europeans I've met fit that description like a hand in a glove; with the exception from my friends. The average person from America (the continent) is just as stupid about Europe and the rest of the world. :lol:

The average Civilization/Colonization player on the other hand is a truly different matter. Or should I say the average CFC poster?

who would play this series of games if they didnt have the slightest notion of the world's nations? i mean, how confusing would it be for someone playing and meeting countries they've never heard of, because, even if you start playing the game, after a while you will be use to the other nations because of their descriptions in civlopedia, or anything else.

who would play this series of games if they didnt have the slightest notion of the world's nations? i mean, how confusing would it be for someone playing and meeting countries they've never heard of, because, even if you start playing the game, after a while you will be use to the other nations because of their descriptions in civlopedia, or anything else.

At least most of us long-time civ fanatics will have a decent understanding of the world map, and that should matter. It is never a good thing to expect people to be ignorant...

I highly doubt that Portuguese would confuse Venezuela with Colombia, given that a 1 million of Portuguese and Portuguese descendants live in Venezuela ( I have some family there ;) )...

But I'm really not the "average" ( whatever that means ) person regarding maps ( I can draw a quite accurate world map from memory )... so I'll not talk of myself ;)

Really? Where do they live? I have relatives in Merida.

Also same with me for the second part of your post.

And yet they would still confuse Venezuela and Colombia.

I mean, you can know the name, but the location is often a problem for people. :sad:

I once met a guy who though Czechoslovakia, the Czech Republic, and Slovakia still all existed in Europe. He even pointed their locations out and tried to make me seem like the stupid one. :rolleyes:

People are just like that...



I bet they know the names, but not their locations. :crazyeye:



The Peruvian shield looks nicer than the leaf. :lol:

Stop making this arguement against europeans. That knowledge only works against americans.

Really? Where do they live? I have relatives in Merida.

I have a cousin in Caracas ( his parents and brothers already came back some years ago ) and some more distant relatives in Maracaibo....

And now here's my question - WHY DIDN'T THEY ADD PORTUGAL TO 'CREATE' BRAZIL?

In the original game Portugal was not included. This is just a revamp of the original.

In the original game Portugal was not included. This is just a revamp of the original.
Except of course that they have changed quite a few other aspects (leaders, founding fathers, diplomacy etc.) and even included entirely new features (Constitution). So it is certainly not just a revamp of the original - and even if it was it would still be a good opportunity to correct a much criticized omission (and grave historical error).

In my school half my class didn't know where Britain was...

In my school half my class didn't know where Britain was...

You live in the US, right? I can't think of any other country where that could be the case... But anyway, even though people around the world are largely ignorant about geography, those interested in games like Colonization might not be. And I hope the fact that some of us are quite knowledgable might mean something to the developers... :blush:

You live in the US, right? I can't think of any other country where that could be the case...

I think it's mostly the fact that I'm surrounded by idiots...:hammer2:

I think it's mostly the fact that I'm surrounded by idiots...:hammer2:

You have my sympathy, then! :)

There are some screens at Gamer.no.

South America:
http://prisguide.gamer.no/product.php?productId=96982&view=images&imageId=506227#506227

An NA-map:
http://prisguide.gamer.no/product.php?productId=96982&view=images&imageId=506227#506223

This is from another thread, and should answer the question:

http://www.invisibledream.com/images/happydance.jpg

One of the newly released screenshots show several maps available (New World, New World Large, South America, and Northwest Passage). But given how this is built upon the Civ4 engine - it should most likely be open to MODs and custom maps.

I'd love to see a Rhye MOD for Colonization (the maps thus far seem to toss the Native Americans in randomized positions - Aztecs in North America?!! :confused:)

the Native Americans in randomized positions - Aztecs in North America?!! :confused:)

I hate it how civ games always do stuff like this! :cringe: Sort of like when you play the Earth map in regular civ, there's only Germanic barbarians. I'd fix it myself if I knew how to.

Nice avatar, btw.

I hate it how civ games always do stuff like this! :cringe: Sort of like when you play the Earth map in regular civ, there's only Germanic barbarians. I'd fix it myself if I knew how to.

Nice avatar, btw.

Yeah, I agree. But I'm pretty sure the game will be open to MODs. Hopefully Rhye or someone'll come up with something that'll keep the Native Americans (and maybe Europeans) closer to their actual historical locations.

I hate it how civ games always do stuff like this! :cringe: Sort of like when you play the Earth map in regular civ, there's only Germanic barbarians. I'd fix it myself if I knew how to.

Nice avatar, btw.

100% agree

But i'm sure, we'll just need to wait for a few weeks after the game release, until someone mod that
:lol:

As well as the Americas, it'd be nice to see individual maps for North and South America, Australasia and Africa. The latter might mean that we would need a Belgian Civ as well as a Portugese one!

I guess once we see what we get in Colonization we can always mod out the rest. And, who could resist the idea of FfH: Across the Silvered Seas.

100% agree

But i'm sure, we'll just need to wait for a few weeks after the game release, until someone mod that
:lol:

Also I think we won't have to wait too long until we can play as the Aztecs...

Also I think we won't have to wait too long until we can play as the Aztecs...

Yupz
Frankly, one of the reason why i want to play col, is for playing the natives, and kick those agressor butt ASAP when they land

It would cool for me
:lol:

One of the newly released screenshots show several maps available (New World, New World Large, South America, and Northwest Passage). But given how this is built upon the Civ4 engine - it should most likely be open to MODs and custom maps.

I'd love to see a Rhye MOD for Colonization (the maps thus far seem to toss the Native Americans in randomized positions - Aztecs in North America?!! :confused:)

I hate it how civ games always do stuff like this! :cringe: Sort of like when you play the Earth map in regular civ, there's only Germanic barbarians. I'd fix it myself if I knew how to.

Nice avatar, btw.

Yeah, I agree. But I'm pretty sure the game will be open to MODs. Hopefully Rhye or someone'll come up with something that'll keep the Native Americans (and maybe Europeans) closer to their actual historical locations.

100% agree

But i'm sure, we'll just need to wait for a few weeks after the game release, until someone mod that
:lol:

As well as the Americas, it'd be nice to see individual maps for North and South America, Australasia and Africa. The latter might mean that we would need a Belgian Civ as well as a Portugese one!

I guess once we see what we get in Colonization we can always mod out the rest. And, who could resist the idea of FfH: Across the Silvered Seas.

Also I think we won't have to wait too long until we can play as the Aztecs...

Yupz
Frankly, one of the reason why i want to play col, is for playing the natives, and kick those agressor butt ASAP when they land

It would cool for me
:lol:
Do not despair .....

I personally guarentee that in the first few hours of release, I'll have released a mod to add Portugal and other things. ;)
:D

@ Chuggi

There is a fix for that and it is quite simple ;) most of that kind of maps are WB saves ( I don't expect any change in Civ Col regarding that ) and they are editable via notepad ( or any text editor ). In the section that defines a civ atributes there is a slot for pointing the starting position. Just find the coordinates and put it there ;)

And so There ARE AMERICAS!!!