What do you all think about a war against Babylon? I think we should do it. We might need ~10 turns, to get some more units (mainly in our stack near Edorai), but then we should be ready to go. I think our stacks should mainly consist of trebs and samurai, with the odd pike and elephant to fight against horsearchers.

Sounds good to me. :goodjob:

Sounds good to mee too.

I think we want a couple more units (3/4 samurai, 1/2 trebs) in the eastern stack, and an anti-horse unit in Edorai and NG, and then we're ready to go.

Yes, we should do it, but 10 turns really? We can prepare in that time?

I think it's a good idea once we have Samurai / Ellies / Siege enough to be sure that we can attack two fronts without losing a city ourselves. If that is attainable in ten turns, I dont see why not...

Well sure we should if we could, but my question was if we could be ready by ten turns.

I believe Diamondeye was just expressing his opinion, not answering your question. We probably need an analysis done by DaveShack. But the war should be put off for at least 10 turns.

Should we discuss invasion plans here? I would suggest capturing Sippar (home to taoism right at the edge of Babylonian lands) and while the AI sacrafices his offensive units to try and recapture it we can send troops to Borsippa and split his empire in two.

Yeah I would like to see plans being made and agreed upon for this war.

I think that after 10 turns Babylon will continue to grow millitary wise.

Should we discuss invasion plans here? I would suggest capturing Sippar (home to taoism right at the edge of Babylonian lands) and while the AI sacrafices his offensive units to try and recapture it we can send troops to Borsippa and split his empire in two.

// Speaking from memory here

My general plan was to have 2 stacks, one near New Giruvegan and one near Edorai. The one in Edorai would go east to Sippar (right?), the one near NG would go NW.

Vandal brought up a good point as well, especially because the Babylonians are already a much more powerful foe then Spain ever was.

Proposed builds and military plans:

Arete: Work the plantation when it's ready
Trebuchet - Samurai - Trebuchet - Samurai

New Giruvegan: Focus on units, irrigate grasslands (keep forests), then mine grassland hill
Pikeman (2) - Samurai (3) - Samurai (3) - Samurai (3)

Edorai: New citizen goes to engineer/iron mine
Pikeman (1), Samurai (4), War Elephant (3), Trebuchet (4)

Arkadia: Keep working all cottages and cows
Aquaduct - Research - University

Kassite: Keep growing, whip in 10 turns
Pikeman (1) - Trebuchet (whip in 10)

Venice: Whip once hammers have been invested in new build
Lighthouse (2) - Pikeman (whip)

Barcelona: New citizen on the plains mine, whip market when previous whip unhappiness goes away, then focus on food and

specialists
Market - Courthouse

Madrid: Chop forests into cottages (especially riverside), don't whip. Focus on growth
Library - Courthouse

Santiago: Reassign citizens next turn, on the fish and the copper mine. After the courthouse, focus on whipping units every

10 turns
Courthouse - units

Cordoba: Whip every 10 turns
Courthouse - Barracks - Units

Seville: Cottage the workshop
Courthouse - Lighthouse

NG stack (goes Mari - Eshnunna - Opis)
Now: 1 axeman, 3 Samurai, 2 Horse Archers, 5 War Elephants, 3 Catapults
From Kassite: 1 War Elephant + 1 Horse Archer
Production Kassite: 1 Trebuchet
Production New Giruvegan: 1 Samurai, 1 War Elephant, 1 Trebuchet
Total (~12 turns from now): 1 axeman, 4 Samurai, 3 Horse Archers, 7 War Elephants, 3 Catapults, 2 Trebuchets

Edorai stack (goes Sippar - Shushan - Nippar)
Now: 2 Samurai
On the road: 1 Trebuchet
Production Arete: 2 Trebuchets, 2 Samurai
Production Edorai: 1 Samurai, 1 War Elephant, 1 Trebuchet
Total (~12 turns from now): 5 Samurai, 4 Trebuchets, 1 War Elephant

I think we should Road that mine and plains tiles north of NG to help our invasion forces

I’d send the NG stack into Borsippa rather than Mari as you propose, although the Edori stack would still go to Sippar. I’d then send a stack into Dur-Kurigalzu, which as a core city is more valuable to Lincoln than his western ones.

I wouldn’t build any more War elephant. They do well only against Horse archers, get no defense bonus and are very weak against spears while Samurai only cost a few hammers more. Also don’t neglect Longbows to help defend our stacks and captured cities. We have enough gold to upgrade all our axes.

As for specialists if we get rid of a scientist in Arete and Barcelona it would improve our chances of getting a prophet to build Dai Maio in Sippar.

@WEs vs. Samurai: Don't forget that Lincoln has crossbows. Crossbows can easily kill samurai, while they can hardly touch War Elephants. That's why I like at least 1 WE in every stack.

I agree on the main troop composition Dutchfire states, crossbows must be taken by elephants.

Looks like Lincoln is nearly a match for us in GNP, Manufacturing and Power, this will not be a quick war. Capturing all those cities is going to cause serious war weariness and without a culture slider we have little to counter it with. It may be best to conquer Babylon in two stages.

If so cutting it in half at Borsippa looks like a good idea. We could then concentrate on his western half (full of younger cities probably more easily taken) or his Eastern half (core cities harder to take but devastating for him to loose).

I would tend to work the western portion. Then we can turn on his his core cities later when our relative strength is much greater than his.

Screenshots of the target areas.

Looks like Lincoln is nearly a match for us in GNP, Manufacturing and Power, this will not be a quick war. Capturing all those cities is going to cause serious war weariness and without a culture slider we have little to counter it with. It may be best to conquer Babylon in two stages.

If so cutting it in half at Borsippa looks like a good idea. We could then concentrate on his western half (full of younger cities probably more easily taken) or his Eastern half (core cities harder to take but devastating for him to loose).

I would tend to work the western portion. Then we can turn on his his core cities later when our relative strength is much greater than his.

... I would aim for the right side - we are going to fight nearly the same amount of soldiers (defenders might be tougher, but numbers are almost the same), so WW difference will be small due to the facts that:
We will not be culturally dominant in any case,
We will take the same amount of cities, ~
We will lose only a few more units (since we will be bombarding, cultural defenses are out of the equation),
We will kill only a few more units since most of his army will not be tied to a city, so the only difference is between amount of defenders in left or right).

You're right; there is no reason not to strike at the most valuable part of his empire first.

If we marched through Dur-Kurgalzu and Babylon we'd pretty much ruin Lincoln. Those two cities alone account for almost 40% of his worked tiles, 35% of his raw hammer production, and nearly 20% of his national power! They would also give us the use of all three of his wonders, namely Shwedagon Paya, Angkor Wat, and the Great Lighthouse.

It may initially be a harder fight than taking his peripheral cities, and we may still want to plan a diversionary attack someplace else, but I think concentrating our forces against those two targets would be a very worth while strategy.

Although I like 1889's plan of dividing the Babs, East and West, because of the locale of our forces, I would tend to lean towards dutchfire's plan. Atack in the West first, so the Babs reinforcements head that way, and then hit the lower East. Less travel time for one of the stacks.

I would say one of the main benefitts of this plan is the immediate reduction of our borderline wih the Babs. Wouldn't this limit their mobility in a counter attack? And increase ours as far as reinforcements?

That makes three votes for Operation Dutchfire. I’d say that pretty well settles the issue of war planning and Lincoln’s fate.

It contains one small error though:
New Giruvegan production should be Pike (2) - Samurai (3) - Elephant (3) - Trebuchet (3)

Also a note for the turn player: 2 Trebuchets from the current NG stack need to go to Edorai.

I would like to suggest a few small modifications:
The axe in the NG stack can be upgraded, the axe in NG has the medic promotion so should travel with the Edori stack, upgraded or not. I would also like to upgrate two archers in Arete, one for each stack.

If we marched through Dur-Kurgalzu and Babylon we'd pretty much ruin Lincoln. Those two cities alone account for almost 40% of his worked tiles, 35% of his raw hammer production, and nearly 20% of his national power!.

I agree, but after cpturing those cties, Akkad would break Lincoln completely.

The main reason why I attacked these cities is that they are a) not very well defended, so they'll be relatively easy prey for our stacks and b) they're giving cultural pressure on our cities. By taking these cities, our own cities will be able to develop better. That's especially true for Venice, which is under quite a bit of cultural pressure.

In my plan, there would probably be a cease-fire after taking the initial cities in the west and east, to regroup our army, so we can focus on the core of Babylon.

I think west Babylon would be a better target, theres just way more benefits to us if we can control some of those cities.

But how do we know if Lincoln will accept a cease fire if we take Dur-Kurgalzu and Babylon? Sure there powerful cities, but he still has a lot more, and if there not very well defended, that means that his army could always counter us at the same cities with no defenses.

One thing I would like to do after the War with Babylon is over is begin an over-seas war against England.

... Just for not starting a new topic about it; I would like the next Samurai unit hired in New Giruvegan named Takeo Otori (see my land grant RP thread for reason).

Any more views on the war?

Going purely from the screenies (thanks 1889 - I'm another who can't run this game) I would go with Dutchfire's plan roughly.

On the west though for a start I would only go for the 2 southernmost cities leaving Opis (with Islam) on the coast for now and concentrating more of our forces on the larger cities in the East. I can't see the defenders in Mari and Eshnunna, but do we need so many War Elephants in the stack this side? Could more be sent to join the Eastern offensive, particulalry if we only go for the 2 cities?

On the East, I think we should take the Cities Dutchfire suggested as I don't think we should leave them at our back. I can't see what defenders there are from the screenies. However, I would also like to take Dur-Krig??? which would probably need a separate stack of troops. From the comments I don't think there will be sufficient troops to go for Dur-Kurig, Sippar & Nippur as first strike cities, which leaves Dutchfires route from the south, hopefully drawing out some troops from Dur-Kurig in the process if we can get a 2nd stack to go straight to Dur-Kurig (maybe allow the troops to be drawn south first) that would be nice.

One of my questions would be what religion would we be?

I believe the plan is Hindu - nearly obviously?

Hindu, and then perhaps no state religion in Free Religion, but that's for another day to decide.

I'll drink to that!