Oral History
* Can adjust Culture Slider
* Allows Story Circle (Monument; think of a communal campfire where people gather to discuss the old days)

Ceremonies
* Requires Oral History.
* First to dicover founds religion.
* Allows Inquisitor Unit (This unit is almost essential for a Vision Victory)
* Allows Wheel of Deals National Wonder (See Mad Max 3, acts as Forbidden Palace)

Constitution should require Ceremonies and Diplomacy as well as Education. It should also enable New World Order (Apostolic Palace) for the Diplomatic Win.

Military Discipline:
Allows barracks, some sort of infantry unit
enables city raider, city garrison promos?

The evolution from bands of ragtag survivor militias to an actual structured military with chain-of-command and proper discipline would be a pretty big one, probably worthy of a tech (early-midgame?)

Let us make this thread broader.

I want to spread out the tech tree. Originally I had a strange goal, which was to fit the tech tree on one page. Version 0.6 is the first time the tech tree has needed the scrollbar. Polycrates has commented in the infantry thread that the tech tree seems kind of jammed together. In retrospect, I agree; in vanilla, each tech gives one or two new things to build, while most of mine give four or five. Also, when I autoplay games, the AI maxes out the tech tree by turn 300 or so, there is nothing to aim at but the huge "Future Tech" which is just there to prevent runouts.

So, I don't feel a strong need to add more units or buildings; but I'd like to spread things out more. As a side effect, the cumulative cost of the tree will increase. How should we do it?

Note, in version 0.7 I have added back most of the vanilla civics. In the current release, the civics grid is 3x3, in vanilla it is 5x5. The version 0.7 grid is 5x4, all of the vanilla civics are there except the religion column. So there are more things to fit in.

I think it would be usefull if in the later game you could research hydroponics. This would allow sea farming to be preformed by worker boats, thus making coast plots more profitable (as they completely suck right now).

NOTE! This is a cross-post as I posted it in a different forum as well.

First off, about the tech tree, I think the way to expand it is to have it in conjunction with the concept they use in Final Frontier of having a 'theme' for your tech. So if your civ is on the coast, you might switch to "Maritime" and that would unlock certain techs. I don't know if there is a way to make a tech cheaper by a flag, but if so, then Maritime civs could research certain techs more quickly at the expense of others. I know in Civ III, they used to do this.

I think it would make each Civ tend to go their own way, sort of like in Alpha Centauri (which this mod is sort of like in a way since you have a high tech people having to start very low level). Some examples of these themes might be:
* Recovery: We had high tech and damnit we'll have it again! Civ's using this would focus on getting old tech working again so they'd have fewer weapons but more powerful ones. They might also have more of a bunker mentality, fewer cities, but bigger ones.
* Downshift: This could be for Civ's without a lot of resources at their disposal except for maybe people so they push to use older techs like gunpowder or steam. This theme is useful if you access to sulfur and coal but maybe no oil.
* Maritime: As mentioned above, Civ's using this would focus on ships, have access to whaling boats and perhaps 'super fisheries' in the sense that the normal work boat gets only a token amount of fish whereas the maritime Civ's work boat creates a fishery that really cranks out the food. Plus they might also have access to the River Port that some mods have. They'd get increased commerce.
* Luddite: Technology brought us ruin. These folks would want to return to a simple life. Sure guys in jeeps with machine guns are bad ass, but up against LOTS of guys with crossbows is a bad thing. Perhaps also allow this theme to have the mobile yurts the one Mongol scenario had to enable them to be semi-nomadic. Either that or they get a lot less penalty for spreading out.
* Mad Scientist: Not sure how high-tech the planet was before, but perhaps they are going to focus on mutations and other bio-secrets that might have been unlocked prior to the war. You could have clones, mutates and 'necrotroops' (basically robocops) plus bio-weapons or just good old fashion chemical weapons.
* Gaian: Theme that is focused on terraforming and using fixing the planet. Similar to the Gaians in Alpha Centauri, perhaps they could use, breed many of the new mutations. Plus, who wouldn't want to have cavalry using giant spiders! =)~ Plus this theme would go for more wind-farms for electricity and bio-diesel.

Anyway, if there is a way, I think certain techs should be available only after certain key ones are made and you have to sort of stick with it. Another thing about having the theme would be that would slow things down since trading techs outside a theme would be pointless since it's not just the knowledge but the infrastructure. Won't do me much good to get a tech for better work boats since I don't have the ancillary tech that allows for shipyards.

I mean if you have scant resources, you can't do everything so you have to sort of pick a path and ride it to the end or pay the price for starting over and I think that would make the Civ's all a little bit more different.
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I haven't played Final Frontier enough to really see how the tech tree works, but I had not noticed themes there yet. That mod is where I got the idea about advocates and visions, but that doesn't actually effect research.

I don't think there's a way to change the cost or give a research bonus for certain techs, at least not without changing the guts of the SDK.

However, I think part of the effect you want would come naturally with a tech tree that had "deeper branches". If you have to put all your research points into developing down one branch, say for maritime units, then you just wouldn't have time to develop down another branch, say for terraforming. In the Fury Road tech tree, there are two key branches, for "government" based stuff and "military" based stuff. If you aim for education, you probably fall behind on heavy weapons.

I think most of your themes would make good backgrounds for the LH, which we are starting to discuss on the leaderhead reduction thread.

I haven't played Final Frontier enough to really see how the tech tree works, but I had not noticed themes there yet. That mod is where I got the idea about advocates and visions, but that doesn't actually effect research.

Neither have I, yet after loading up a game, they break the civics down to Military, Government, Labor and Economy. The Military is sort of the 'theme' I was talking about. If you have "light ship doctrine" you get a price break on making those class of ships. If you have 'pacifism' you get a penalty for building ships, but get more happiness and more hammers since you don't have the military infrastructure to support.

I was thinking that beyond dealing with the tech tree, you could do something similar. "Luddites" would get a cost break on low-tech units and maybe would get more 'free' so they could afford to have hordes of crossbowmen and cavalry whereas "Maritime" might allow for cheaper ships and ship related buildings.

Plus, in a sense, you could do what certain religions do in the Fall From Heaven mod, in that certain civics allow civic only units & buildings. Maybe Luddites would get more 'advanced' low tech units as well as stables and bowyers and 'Downshift' would have access to more gunpowder and/or steam units and perhaps coal plants. Any Civ who adopted these civics would have access to these units so they aren't Civ specific. In a way, you could combine this with Vision. I mean the concept behind "Luddite" being technology is bad, we need to return to our roots is a Vision. (Which also brings up you need inquisitors because many Visions would not take kindly to counter-Visions) If you don't want to tie them to Vision, could you not make these themes corporations? That way you can have democratic Luddites or Plutocratic Luddites.

The only question I have is whether or not you can tie techs to these choices. That way you might have certain techs that are only available to you if you have the right civic.

I don't think you can remove techs or change their cost easily. But, suppose a unit requires a certain tech and a certain civic, and that tech doesn't do anything else useful. Then there would be no reason to research that tech unless you had that civic.

Someday I will have to start playing FFH, but it appears to have a high startup time. In order to play effectively I should read about all the different cultures, civics, spell effects, etc.

Someday I will have to start playing FFH, but it appears to have a high startup time. In order to play effectively I should read about all the different cultures, civics, spell effects, etc.

Yes you must! ;) For the most part, I only play Rise of Mankind and FFH. In fact, I get so used to being able to terraform via magic and having certain landmarks that it's a bit of a shock to go back to 'normal' Civ.

Not sure what you mean by huge start up time, but it WILL eat up a lot of your time playing it. However, I think it would be helpful since they've done a lot of interesting things in that mod that I would not have thought possible.

Kael has written some fantastic resources on modding as well :-)

Someday I will have to start playing FFH, but it appears to have a high startup time. In order to play effectively I should read about all the different cultures, civics, spell effects, etc.

Go start a game of FfH now, you'll thank me for it later! Do not worry about reading the background, you'll pick that up as you go. Play the Grigori as they're a good tribe to start with as they get a cool hero unit and you don't have to worry about religions. Play on Settler and try to destroy all the evil nations and vassalise the good ones.

Thanks for the encouragement, I already have two huge time sinks: *coding* Fury Road and *playing* Fury Road. Someday when Fury Road gets ""done"" then I will pick up FFH.

Thanks for the encouragement, I already have two huge time sinks: *coding* Fury Road and *playing* Fury Road. Someday when Fury Road gets ""done"" then I will pick up FFH.

Well you might want to check it out simply to see what you can swipe, especially art wise as many of the monsters would work as mutations. In fact, that one barbarian unit, (Deathstalker?) looks to me like a modified 'blooded werewolf".

Well you might want to check it out simply to see what you can swipe, especially art wise as many of the monsters would work as mutations. In fact, that one barbarian unit, (Deathstalker?) looks to me like a modified 'blooded werewolf".

Believe me, I have already scanned all the mods for artwork. Downloading and bringing up the civilopedia doesn't take much time. You are right, the deathclaw is a slightly modified FFH werewolf. Also the giant spider is a reskin of the spider unit from FFH, although I have lost track of which exact artist did the reskin. Both are listed in the credits.

Are there specific FFH monsters I may have missed, that I should add?

I think that certain visions allow certain civics. For instance, a Democracy Vision won't let you run Depostism or Police State, but Plutocracy could.

The zombie unit from Necro Cristi could maybe pass off as a "mutant" barbarian unit from the Fallout.

There is a much longer debate about civics and visions in this thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=282032). The short answer is, my choice of real world names for the visions was a poor one, because I am actually trying to model something else. In the next version 0.8, I have used more generic names for the visions.

Regarding mutants, I do love seZereth's recent art for those. In the Fallout games, there is a sub-race of Ghouls that could use this artwork. I would start them with rad-immune. That is something I may do in a future version. However, technically both the deathclaw and ghoul are intelligent, and putting them in as "animals" may be considered a little insulting :-)

Very cool mod so far! Definitely the first of its kind that I'm aware of. :goodjob:

Here's my attempt to begin spreading out the tech tree, starting with the political economy branch (currently Administration). I agree a less dense tree should make for a more sustainable game; and also be more in keeping with the premise of working to emerge very gradually from a starting point of extreme backwardness/anarchism..

:spear:


Cooperation 80:science:
can build Watchtower
can train Worker


leads to:
Barter 240:science:
+1 trade routes per city
enables Open Borders

Common Law 240:science:
enables Bureaucracy
can build City Hall


Barter leads to:
Currency 500:science:
enables Gold Trading in diplomacy
can build Marketplace

Contracts (with Common Law) 540:science:
can construct Thunderbowl
can construct Bust a Deal, Face the Wheel
enables Defensive Pacts


Common Law leads to: 520:science:
Administration
enables Nationhood
can construct Capitol
can train Spy
can adjust Safety rate

Feudalism 450:science:
as current, plus Allows Vassalization


Contracts leads to:
Division of Labor (with Agriculture) 1000:science:
+1:hammers: from Town
+1:commerce: from Salvage Center
enables Caste System

Usury (with Currency) 1300:science:
+1 trade routes per city
enables Free Market
first to discover receives a Great Merchant
can build Wealth


Administration leads to:
Civic Projects (with Journeyman Tradesmen) 1000:science:
enables State Property
can construct School
can construct Sewage Plant


Civic Projects leads to:
Education (with High School Science) 1300:science:
+1 :science: from School
enables Representation
first to discover receives a Great Scientist
can build Research
|
V
Constitution
as current

Hunting and Gathering 130:science:
can build Camp, Plantation, Fishing Boats
can train Work Boat
can work water tiles
enables Woodsman promotion
|
V
Domestication 400:science:
can build Pasture
can train Cavalry
|
V
Animal Wrangling (with First Aid and Self Defense) 650:science:
enables Subdue Animal promotion (from FfH?)
can train Wrangler (foot unit with 8:attack:, +50% strength vs animals, starts with Subdue Animal)



Subsistence Farming 130:science:
can build Farm
can remove Forest
|
V
Slash and Burn 240:science:
can build Farms without Irrigation
can remove Jungle
+10 :hammers: from removing Forest or Jungle
|
V
Agriculture (with Domestication) 600:science:
Farms spread Irrigation
+1 :food: from Farms with access to Phosphates (map resource)
can construct Granary
|
V
Fermentation (with Machinery) 940:science:
enables Morale
can construct Still (=Brewery from FfH)
|
V
Biofuels (with Refining) 1600:science:
enables Less Fuel I
can build Bioreactor (World Wonder, 750:hammers: : Requires Still. +50%:hammers:,-2:food: in city. +3 Great Engineer. Provides Ethanol, +1:hammers:)


Agriculture also allows:
Hydroponics (with Homebrew Computers) 1100:science:
can construct Hydroponic Tanks (250:hammers:, gives +2 :food: in city)

These look like pretty good ideas. I don't have much spare time until Monday, but if you have some thoughts for the military part of the tree too, that would be great!

This should space weaponry out a bit:


Self Defense
can train Crossbowman
can construct Barracks
enables City Garrison
|
V
Small Arms
reveals Munitions
enables Weapon Mount
can train Guardian (with Citizen Militia)
can train Jeep (with Cracking)
|
V
Automatic Weapons (with Salvaging)
as current
|
V
Heavy Weapons (with Homebrew Electronics)
as current


Self Defense also leads to:
Citizen Militia (with Cooperation)
enables Slavery
enables Drill
can train Guardian (with Small Arms)

(these could also be named Tradesmen->Construction->Engineering->Highways):


Apprentice Tradesmen
can Build Roads
can construct Monument
|
V
Journeyman Tradesmen (with Cooperation)
can construct Barricade
can Build Cottage
can Build Mine
allows Bridge Building
|
V
Master Tradesmen (with Combustion)
can Build Fort
can construct Construction Yard
can construct Walls (with Self Defense)
can construct Geothermal Cavern Complex
|
V
Highways
as current. maybe rename Highway Worker to Road Crew

Spreads out the vehicles a bit.. you can build Jeeps at Cracking but have unreliable fuel supplies before getting Train Gas Trucks at Refining.


Machinery
can Build Junkyard
can train Catapult
|
V
Combustion (with High School Science)
reveals Ruined Depot
can train Chopper
enables City Raider
units can use Highways (before Combustion, would give same benefits as Roads)
|
V
Cracking
can build Well
can train Flamethrower
can train Jeep (with Small Arms)
|
V
Refining
can train Gas Truck
can train Humvee (with Armor)
enables Mobility


Machinery also leads to:
Salvaging (with Apprentice Tradesmen)
reveals Ruined Silo
can Build Salvage Center
can construct Carhenge
|
V
Engines (with Combustion)
can train Ute
can construct Garage
enables Offroad
enables Camoflage
|
V
Armor
as current

High School Science
centers World Map
reveals Oil
|
V
Homebrew Electronics -----> leads to Radio, as current
reveals Ruined Airbase
enables Sentry, Flanking, Ambush
allows Map Trading
|
V
Homebrew Computers
first to discover receives a Free Technology
enables Technology Trading
enables Leadership
|
V
Rocketry (with Engines)
as current
|
V
Flight (with Refining)
can Rebuild Airbase
reveals World Map



High School Science also leads to:

First Aid
+5% to unit heal rate inside civ borders
enables Medic 1
enables Radiation Immune
|
V
Field Medicine
+1 :health: in all cities
enables March
can bulld Field Hospital (+1 :health: in city, heals units in city +50%, can remove negative Plague promotion caught from mutant attacks)

I'd like Eras to be implemented.

Era of survival.
Humanity tries to adapt to the new world.
Basic technologies and early warfare.
The main problems are numerous mutated animals.

Era of renascence.
More advanced warfare and social techs.
The main threat is barbarian nation and other civs.

Era of transcendence.
Heavy warfare and some fancy sci-fi techs.
Power armor, energy weapons, viral weapons, implants.
This period may be short, the main part of the mod is about the post-apocalyptic survival.


A suggestion about current "agriculture" and early techs.
Make more techs and separate existent units/buildings/features between them.

Agriculture
Farms and granaries.

Hunting.
Camps and scouts.

Animal taming.
Requires hunting or agriculture.
Pastures and hunters (a scout with a dog - with hunting, +nice% vs. animals).

Warfare
Barricades.
Survivor unit.
Leads to various advanced military techs.

Logistics
Roads and settlers.

Organized labor.
Requires logistics
Junktown/mine.

Machinery.
Workshop building (+ production).
Crossbowman with Warfare tech.
Catapult.

Riding.
Requires animal taming or warfare
Horseman with horse.

http://i34.tinypic.com/o7kgn4.jpg

Riding could give bikers with Combustion tech (you can skip animal taming for it or you may have no horse).
At first the horseman would be better (since he requires a resource) because he gains defensive bonuses and biker doesn't, but the biker will get better upgrades with rifles etc.
There should be a difference between jeeps and bikers to make them popular.
I.e. give the bikers -1 :mad: ability while they are in city (you may limit it to maximum -3), it will represent biker shows.
Or you could just make a "biker show" building (+ :)) which requires Combustion and Riding.

These are my first thoughts on early techs.

Orlanth's ideas are nice too.
Everything is good except "combustion reveals ruined depot" for me.
I don't think that a knowledge of combustion will actually "reveal" landmarks. I'd like it to stay at "salvaging".

Animal taming.
Requires hunting or agriculture.
Pastures and hunters (a scout with a dog - with hunting, +nice% vs. animals).

Rise of Mankind has a War dog unit which might be usable for this. Maybe a survivor unit that is immune to First Strikes.

Settlers and Workers ought to have some defensive Strength (say 3) but not be able to attack - they're survivors too after all.

A few naval techs might be nice one to build work boats nd allow river trade. One for small units - jetskis and speedboats, the former is faster and good for scouting, the latter slower but with a cargo capacity. One to reveal and rebuild ports (spawns submarines, destroyers and maybe battleships) and one to build naval units of your own (say transports and destroyers) Sea Serpents and Giant Octopi can live in the oceans and, I dunno, Killer Jellyfish, can live in the seas.

Flight ought to begin with balloons, biplanes and zeppelins. "Airstrip One" ought to be a Wonder that allows you to airlift one unit from that city to another once per turn. (Airstrip One is the name of the UK in 1984, so it fits a post-apocalypse/dystopia scenario quite well)

I'd like Eras to be implemented.[

I like these ideas! :)

One thing I would like to point out is depending on how ruinously bad the event that got the planet to where it's at, technology once discovered is hard to get rid of. I mean with more an more media being more 'permanent' it's hard to lose a lot of stuff. Sure the people who know it may have all died, but it is a hell of a lot easier to reconstruct something from a book when you know it's possible.

Not sure how scenarios work with mods, but I'm thinking that there could be different layers to this mod depending on the initial disaster.

The 'Lucifer's Hammer' scenario: Celestial event, rapid destruction, climate change. Perhaps initial meteorite strikes are misinterpreted as a first strike (maybe Earth was in state of military tension like during the Reagan years?) so nukes are also exchanged adding to the misery. Thus we have little in the way of people and tech left. This scenario would definitely have you starting with practically nothing.

The 'Alpha Centauri' Scenario: For all of us AC fans; the Earth is at the edge of all-out war and the planet isn't doing to good environmentally either. The UNS Unity has launched and then the fit hits the shan. However, the factions that would later arise on the Planet have their enclaves and from them they go out to rediscover after the War. This scenario would have your factions starting out with more stuff (in the sense each faction has one 'good' city with stuff horded depending on the faction) and then they go out from there.

The 'War of the Worlds' Scenario: Those damn aliens! First they come down, wreck our planet (perhaps drop a 'dinosaur killer' like in the book "Footfall") and then dropped dead after succumbing to our diseases! This scenario would account for all the wreckage, radiation and loss of life, but account for the fact there are still lots of people scattered around who all have to come together. Plus, added to this could be the remains of aliens tech that could help and maybe left over 'beserkers' could be nasty barbarians. (Like in "Fall Further" you could have alien machines be like lairs and the pay off is great but you could awaken a alien death machine)

All of these scenarios would only require minor tweaking of the main mod, but would change the flavor of how the survivors start out and what they are up against.

Rise of Mankind has a War dog unit which might be usable for this. Maybe a survivor unit that is immune to First Strikes.

RoM also has the 'river port' building that I think would be the first type of harbor that you'd probably have since it'd be awhile before you'd need any sort of deep water harbor.

Settlers and Workers ought to have some defensive Strength (say 3) but not be able to attack - they're survivors too after all.

I like how the Fall Further mod has workers that gain experience and can defend themselves a bit.

Flight ought to begin with balloons, biplanes and zeppelins. "Airstrip One" ought to be a Wonder that allows you to airlift one unit from that city to another once per turn. (Airstrip One is the name of the UK in 1984, so it fits a post-apocalypse/dystopia scenario quite well)

As I've pushed for many times, just because oil is great, it's also hard to get. However, a lot can be done with steam. I mean you can make steam cars, steam haulers, and all that steampunk stuff. Just because a Civ doesn't have oil (especially early on) shouldn't mean it's screwed totally. I think that in a post-apocalyptic world, you'd get a of the "Roads Less Taken" when it comes to jury-rigging things back together.

I like these ideas! :)

One thing I would like to point out is depending on how ruinously bad the event that got the planet to where it's at, technology once discovered is hard to get rid of. I mean with more an more media being more 'permanent' it's hard to lose a lot of stuff. Sure the people who know it may have all died, but it is a hell of a lot easier to reconstruct something from a book when you know it's possible.

Not sure how scenarios work with mods, but I'm thinking that there could be different layers to this mod depending on the initial disaster.

The 'Lucifer's Hammer' scenario: Celestial event, rapid destruction, climate change. Perhaps initial meteorite strikes are misinterpreted as a first strike (maybe Earth was in state of military tension like during the Reagan years?) so nukes are also exchanged adding to the misery. Thus we have little in the way of people and tech left. This scenario would definitely have you starting with practically nothing.

The 'Alpha Centauri' Scenario: For all of us AC fans; the Earth is at the edge of all-out war and the planet isn't doing to good environmentally either. The UNS Unity has launched and then the fit hits the shan. However, the factions that would later arise on the Planet have their enclaves and from them they go out to rediscover after the War. This scenario would have your factions starting out with more stuff (in the sense each faction has one 'good' city with stuff horded depending on the faction) and then they go out from there.

The 'War of the Worlds' Scenario: Those damn aliens! First they come down, wreck our planet (perhaps drop a 'dinosaur killer' like in the book "Footfall") and then dropped dead after succumbing to our diseases! This scenario would account for all the wreckage, radiation and loss of life, but account for the fact there are still lots of people scattered around who all have to come together. Plus, added to this could be the remains of aliens tech that could help and maybe left over 'beserkers' could be nasty barbarians. (Like in "Fall Further" you could have alien machines be like lairs and the pay off is great but you could awaken a alien death machine)

All of these scenarios would only require minor tweaking of the main mod, but would change the flavor of how the survivors start out and what they are up against.

Actually it requries no tweaking if the eras were implemented. You just start in different eras and have different civs.

An alien civ could be a nice option to add to the main havoc and to make scenarios.

Also I think that there should be an Electricity tech and some factories to produce vehicles/craft which require energy.
There could be different types of energy source - one is oil after combustion (generators rule), another would be some natural way to get energy like windplants/hydroplants and solar plants later. And there should be some end-game nuclear- and fusion plants.

Caravans
Requires the road building technology whatever will it be.
Plus requires animal domestication tech OR the first tech that allows the construction of vehicles.
Allows the construction of Trading company building (+25% :commerce:, Builds +25% Faster with Gold)
Allows the construction of the Crimson Caravan wonder.

Crimson caravan.
Requires 3 Trading company buildings to be built.
+1 protection
+1 trade route in this city.
+1 trade route in each city.
+1 free specialist (great merchant)
+2 :gp: (Great Merchant)
Builds +50% Faster with Gold



Slavery
Enables Slavery civic.
Allows the construction of Slave Pen.

Slave pen
+1 :mad: +1 :yuck: +20% :hammers:
3 required to build the wonder
Allows to train Slaver Caravan

Slaver Caravan
Requires Caravans and Slavery.
Cost in hammers is like the warrior's, can be consumed in another city to produce 50% of it's cost in :hammers:. Slavers' Guild (]Slavers' Guild[/url) lowers the production value thus increasing the % of output.



[u]Totalitarism
Enables the Police State civic.
Allows the construction of C.L.C.
Allows the construction of the C.A.C.L.C. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7133866&postcount=16) wonder.

C.L.C. (Corrective Labor Camp)
-15% War weariness
-1 :mad:
+15% :hammers: in this city
+2 :yuck:

OK, here I go again.
I spent some time today and yesterday thinking about the tech tree, and I came up with this tree. This is basically a compilation of original one plus orlanth's ideas plus my ideas.

Firstly, I don't think that there should be "oral history" or "ceremonies", sorry, but we're speaking of modern people after a great cataclysm, not of savages who just left their caves. A majority of survivors should remember old songs, lyrics and know how to repair a car or to clean a pistol.
The main goal of the post-apocalyptic research should be 1) a desire to obtain resources as fast as possible to start living with the technology again, as we're used to; 2) to gain simplier ways of making good ol'things; 3) to learn how to be effective in groups.

The first two goals are achieved easier than from a scratch because of all that junk and old tech around, also I'm quite sure people should learn chemistry as far as possible to provide medicines and materials for fuel/weapons; the third goal is quite natural and should go not much better (but faster) than in ancient world - while people know words "democracy" and "theocracy" they are just workers/musicians/engineers and are in masse far from political system which controlled their lives before, thus they should learn again via blood and trials how to deal with crowds.
And Salvaging (in my opinion) should be a "universal" tech which won't require something very special and shouldn't be essential but should bear nice bonuses which would help to research other areas.
Here's the tech tree:
If 2 blue arrows lead to 1 tech: "or"; if 2 red arrows lead to 1 tech: "both are required".
http://i34.tinypic.com/vpxnd1.jpg
It's not full and some parts like salvaging are not here while I still don't remove them from the full list, it's just the main scheme.

Also I have a bit revised vision of civics: the nations should start with "tribalism" government civic since they are groups of survivors here and there, and "despotism" should be granted by Totalitarism while "feudalism" civic should be granted by diplomacy in this scheme (people should learn how to interact and conduct meetings with each other to make an effective feudalistic government to be viable as one nation).
Provided by the techs (not all are here) government civics.
http://i33.tinypic.com/kei6wi.jpg

Police state and Cosa Nostra*1 go to social control, I have other ideas too and I can share them here or in a modmod just for you to make it more visual; since you said you don't have enough time now to make everything it would be helpful too due to the copy-pasting ability which makes future things easier: if you'll like something you shouldn't make it from scratch, just copy something from the existing strings.

*1Mafia and Cosa Nostra can be renamed to "Secret Societies" for more extensive use. This will require a "social" civics line.

I'd like to have Cultism too, we can use a shrouded model and call it "cultist", he'll spread vision, have 'medic I' and should be a descent combat unit, so you won't rush to arms as fast as possible but some ideological civs could try to get cultists first, they'll be a bit weaker but have more use.

If you like it I will try to make a modmod with the tweaked techtree. Also I have other techs which grant different already discussed and suggested buildings like casinos and jails/labor camps etc. which fit the theme.
Just tell me.

This looks pretty interesting! I have a number of local changes for version 9; but none of them affect the techtree. So please go ahead and try out your proposed techtree. I think the biggest change should be in the technology xml, which will be totally rewritten; you will need to make some minor changes in the unitinfos, promotioninfos, buildinginfos and buildinfos xml; and a new text file. Any other files which you think might be changed?

I made a few mods some time earlier (in a year or two) so I may dig up all my xml documentation and do it without a side help.

I just wanted to ask your permission, because when you release a mod for publicity you definitely know that they can try to edit/change something there but still it's a good form to ask an author before going into the depths of his work.

Which name do you like more for a social control civic: mafia/cosa nostra/secret societies?

Today I'll be busy until the 2nd part of the day (+3 GMT) and I want to post you my intermediate result. It's currently WIP and I have some buildings like casinos and discussed wonders to be added.
http://i34.tinypic.com/20f8d9g.png
When I'll finish I'll release it, maybe you'll like something from here.
I've made some buttons but didn't bother with the pedia yet.
Any suggestions are highly wanted.
This technology map is a techtree I've made this night and I improved it a bit already, casinos go to gambling, banking lead to economics and "vault building" techs.
Enviromentalism civic and "protection from radiation" promo go to enviromental protection.

Costs are rearranged to fit the quick game speed, they evenly increase while the tree progresses. However I tested their costs on the quick speed so they'll need to be tweaked on marathon when I have a time.
Also when more wonders/units will come in the game the costs should increase for corresponding techs.

For now I listen to your ideas about where to put the radio here.
Computers/propulsion/flight should go in enother era by this design.

Also there's a "depot" icon at cracking - it's just an unchanged icon for a new "petrol pipeline" building:
http://i34.tinypic.com/2gya7fa.png
It's visible on another bank of the river.
For now it just gives +1 :yuck: to the city while the idea is to be a resupply fuel depot.
until you can get refining and oil you should be able to build this petrol station (Sevo's gas pipeline (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=172478) is used) and the vehicles in cities with this petrol stations should be auto-refuelled. They would be after refuelled in any city if it has an access to oil (after refinery). To make this more essential I plan to make refining tech to be more expensive.

I hope this can help somewhay.

I have not been ignoring your proposed new techtree, although it must seem that way. I wanted to get version 9 released, which I have just done. Next thing up is to review your proposal for the techtree.

out of curiosity are you planning on adding any techs that allow the construcion of boats? i tried your game and went into the map editor and saw there were two islands both of which had missile silos, weapon depots ect. but no way of actually getting to them, i understand that naval warfare isnt the point of this mod but perhaps a tech that allows small transport craft for moving settlers or dropping infantry into enemy territory for some good ol' guerilla warfare, and some motor boat with a machinegun to defend against those raids and to pillage the enemys fishing boats

I just had this idea about dividing agriculture in 2 or 3 different techs. To force you make more choices when considering which techs you need first to start tile improving.
Flavourwise humanity knows already what agriculture is so the new techs could be water purification/processing, plant purification/processing, meat purification/processing. Or if you want to go with two techs they could be water purification/processing and food purification/processing.
Water tech would of course make you able to use water tiles and build work boats.
Food or meat and plant techs are quite clear too. Give acces to plant and animal resources. Then you could also implement a Food processing/purification facility. I'll leave the stats of the building up to you. Maybe something like granary or maybe +:food: from food resource tiles.

I would break it up into Eras, with a theme as mentioned earlier. I would also limit settling until later in the game.

Age of Survival - small groups just trying to survive
Age of Rebirth - Small communities are starting to form
Age of Technology - City-States are forming
Steel Age - Nations are starting to emerge
The Future

I have a spreadsheet with a proposed tech tree but it keeps saying invalid file type when I try to upload it...:mad:

All techs with line must be completed to get to next tech , ie all AND no OR prereq. Sorry about the lines being sloppy.

The civics would have to be redone to reflect the growth of society and civilization...

I have a spreadsheet with a proposed tech tree but it keeps saying invalid file type when I try to upload it...:mad:

I bet if you zip it, you could upload a zipfile. If not, PM me and I will (re)send you my email address. I can upload it onto my own web site for others to see.

Here is the spreadsheet zipped:

186879

The idea behind it is rediscovery of old tech and then growth unfettered by restrictions. Plus, the developement of a new society, I do have techs for religions at the bottom. Religion has historically been a key force in the growth of civilizations and warfare as opposed to the current visions.

I envision a New Catholic Church, perhaps a Gaian church, Satanists, End Times Cults, etc.

I do not necesserily agree with all and everything (i.e. the order), but the tree is a good effort - a good collection of potentially useable Post Apo themed Tech-Names.

Also the re-introduction of eras is something i was thinking about as well (If nothing else, so for the technical reason - it makes updates of City art possible). However i think 6 ages are too many for a mod with a short time frame as Fury Road.

I was thinking Survival/Retoration/Future

I would for now keep out Religions. While you are most probably right, about some cults spreading among the survivors, the Vision idea is interesting enought. We can't have both visions and religions...

I have not been ignoring your proposed new techtree, although it must seem that way. I wanted to get version 9 released, which I have just done. Next thing up is to review your proposal for the techtree.

Well, I thought that you ignored it because you totally disliked it, that's why I stopped making it :).
Anyway, 9 is up for some time and I'll look into it.
Also, do you like the gasolin pipe building from Sevo? I think it fits for the mod.

I do not necessarily agree with all and everything (i.e. the order), but the tree is a good effort - a good collection of potentially usable Post Apocalyptic themed Tech-Names.

I agree. However, I think the main thing that must be remembered in making a tech tree is much of the research time/cost needs to be less off discovering the technology than reconstructing what is needed. For example, at the beginning of the game, there would be enough people alive to help teach people the basics, say of medicine, the need for hygiene, germ theory and the like. However, to get to the point of of invasive surgery, you'd need to have mastered chemistry again to, cultivated some sort of opiate or be able to make/use ether, not to mention have the facilities that will have the lights, is clean and the like.

I have often touted S.M. Stirlings "Island in the Sea of Eternity" books and I'd also seriously recommend the whole Eric Flint (et al) series 1632. especially the associated "Grantville Gazette" which is available in book and online at http://www.grantvillegazette.com/. Both stories are about a future city thrown back in time, the first to around 1200 BC the other to (obviously) 1632. All these stories deal with up-timers having to make do with less. A lot of these stories show that BIG problem is that often times people know how to do certain things, but they often lack critical elements or more often chemicals that today are easily mass produced. So a lot of the initial problem is assessing what they have, what they can salvage (1632 shows how important machined bolts and screws are and how long it takes to make them by hand) and then what will the need to go forward from there.

Plus, I'm sure there would be a lot of times at the beginning of the game, 20 years after the event, the group might have the tools and the resources, but might lack some critical bit of knowledge. Sort of like knowing how to build a car, but no one knows how to create ball-bearings. That's where I believe that the goody huts shouldn't just gift you with a technology, but represent some person with knowledge, some critical book or some tool that could be copied so that a good hut would give you a bonus toward a technology. It would be nice if there could be a way for it not have to be the tech your researching but that's probably not possible.

So I'm thinking that many of the first techs would represent a lot of these cottage industries that make many of our basic techs work. As mentioned above, Chemistry would probably be one of the first critical techs prior to a lot of other techs like medicine or gas extraction and the like.

Again, I recommend these books. Best of all, in the Grantville Gazette, they have these works at the end of the book where people discuss the feasibility of certain projects. I'm getting ready to read "Drillers in Doublets" which is all about different power sources from coal, oil, water and the like.

I would for now keep out Religions. While you are most probably right, about some cults spreading among the survivors, the Vision idea is interesting enought. We can't have both visions and religions...

Personally I think religion should be put back in the game. However, I think it doesn't matter what religion a Civ has, it is the type of religion that is important. Taking a page from the game Europa Universalis, I think that different religious modes would give certain advantages as well as disadvantages.

A quick example might be like so (and the labels are off the top of my head and in no way are related to any specific religion.
* Evangelical: They want to spread their religion and would give their Civ either an expansion/recon bonus or maybe a religious specific missionary unit. Downside would be a lower tolerance for other visions/religions and perhaps more unhappy faces if their religious % is low.
* Fundamentalist: Militant in the idea they they have The Truth(tm) so this religion might either give some sort of military bonus (perhaps a Crusader unit or promotions) or might lessen some of the disadvantages of more autocratic styles of government since the Leader is ordained by the Higher Power to be the Leader.
* Orthodox: A religion that believes in going back to basics. This would only work if the game is set up for multiple paths to victory where going low tech is a viable option. These would be the Luddites who believe technology is evil and would want to seek it out and destroy it. So while they'd get a drag on their research, they'd get a bonus expansion and perhaps automatic bonus promotions for units like crossbow.
* Utopian: Belief system that this world is the focus of life instead of an afterlife. See the Apocalypse as a way to start over and 'correct the mistakes of the past'. Probably get a culture bonus and maybe a bonus toward ecology for being sort of 'green'.
* Humanist: Atheistic/Deist ideal where the focus is less Deity centered and more Human centered. Would get science promotions and bonus toward certain buildings. Wouldn't get churches/temples, but might have a specialty building like Academy or libraries might act as 'weak' temples.
* Mystic: Concerned with more inner ideals and philosophy as well as a focus on the arts as worship. Would get a small science boast as well as culture and might have access to the 'entertainer' unit which can add culture. Would take a big hit for going to war.

Again, these religions would be in addition to governments and Vision. I mean if you look at almost every major religion, you have sects that mimic most of those above. Plus it allows the player to more customize their playing style. I mean if you are an aggressive player, you might want to pick a religion that either helps militarily or helps culturally to help battle war weariness.

I don't think this interferes with the Vision, since as I see it, Vision is more of philosophy that drives the Civ and is driven by the Leader. Religion is more personal and is something the Leader has to contend with. History is full of examples where the Leader wants one thing and the priests and/or worshipers want another.

I don't think this interferes with the Vision, since as I see it, Vision is more of philosophy that drives the Civ and is driven by the Leader. Religion is more personal and is something the Leader has to contend with. History is full of examples where the Leader wants one thing and the priests and/or worshipers want another.It might not interfere from the metaphysical point of view. There is however only one game mechanic - which is currently used for visions. Adding back religions means removing visions.

It might not interfere from the metaphysical point of view. There is however only one game mechanic - which is currently used for visions. Adding back religions means removing visions.

Actually... nothing is being done with corporations right now. We could leave capitols at the religion's slot, and put these religions in the corporation spots.

But there is no AI reaction to Corporations - no one will hate you because you run the wrong corporation, no one will bug to swith corporations... And from wht i see in the files, it can not be easily added, because it is just not there...

But there is no AI reaction to Corporations - no one will hate you because you run the wrong corporation, no one will bug to swith corporations... And from what i see in the files, it can not be easily added, because it is just not there...

Well I think that in Fury Road, your religion isn't how you're going to win. So I think religion should be put into the Corporation slots and keep Vision in the Religion. I think this is especially useful if you have religions having advantages and disadvantages built into them which is more like a Corporation.

However, I don't think that spreading your religion should be as much of a focus unless you have the Evangelical or Fundamentalist trait. The Fury Road world is dangerous and not to many people are going to pair, jump on bikes and hit the road to spread The Word. So I think that depending on the religion, there would be a percentage chance to receive missionary units every turn that would be rather low so mostly religion would spread 'naturally' by the computer and less by player actions.

As I said initially, I believe that religion allows the player to tweak their Civ better, allow them access to Religion specific buildings and units as well as giving them advantages and disadvantages. Ideology these days tend to be political/philosophical so the Vision victory makes sense. That being said, I don't see why one of those Visions can't be some form of "Theocracy" since that Vision would be "Our Vision is Anointed by God" and thus it really doesn't matter what religion it is, just that people believe that they indeed have The Truth(tm).

I agree. However, I think the main thing that must be remembered in making a tech tree is much of the research time/cost needs to be less off discovering the technology than reconstructing what is needed. For example, at the beginning of the game, there would be enough people alive to help teach people the basics, say of medicine, the need for hygiene, germ theory and the like. However, to get to the point of of invasive surgery, you'd need to have mastered chemistry again to, cultivated some sort of opiate or be able to make/use ether, not to mention have the facilities that will have the lights, is clean and the like.

I have often touted S.M. Stirlings "Island in the Sea of Eternity" books and I'd also seriously recommend the whole Eric Flint (et al) series 1632. especially the associated "Grantville Gazette" which is available in book and online at http://www.grantvillegazette.com/. Both stories are about a future city thrown back in time, the first to around 1200 BC the other to (obviously) 1632. All these stories deal with up-timers having to make do with less. A lot of these stories show that BIG problem is that often times people know how to do certain things, but they often lack critical elements or more often chemicals that today are easily mass produced. So a lot of the initial problem is assessing what they have, what they can salvage (1632 shows how important machined bolts and screws are and how long it takes to make them by hand) and then what will the need to go forward from there.

Plus, I'm sure there would be a lot of times at the beginning of the game, 20 years after the event, the group might have the tools and the resources, but might lack some critical bit of knowledge. Sort of like knowing how to build a car, but no one knows how to create ball-bearings. That's where I believe that the goody huts shouldn't just gift you with a technology, but represent some person with knowledge, some critical book or some tool that could be copied so that a good hut would give you a bonus toward a technology. It would be nice if there could be a way for it not have to be the tech your researching but that's probably not possible.

So I'm thinking that many of the first techs would represent a lot of these cottage industries that make many of our basic techs work. As mentioned above, Chemistry would probably be one of the first critical techs prior to a lot of other techs like medicine or gas extraction and the like.

Again, I recommend these books. Best of all, in the Grantville Gazette, they have these works at the end of the book where people discuss the feasibility of certain projects. I'm getting ready to read "Drillers in Doublets" which is all about different power sources from coal, oil, water and the like.

In my tech tree Chemistry is early, but the earliest techs were things I thought people would need to relearn mostly because we take them for granted now. For example, we take our government and its mechanisms (ie the vote) for granted. But we were posed an interesting question in a poly sci course once: What would happen and what would you do, if tomorrow you woke up and the govenrment and police had been zapped by aliens?

One girl immediately responded with "Well, I would wait until someone reformed the government..." Everyone else nodded. I said " Well, I would take my guns and go take any car I liked and grab all the resources necessary for me to survive..." The teacher loved that! The point is, that most people take all of the things that make society run properly, like water, electricity, phones, tv, and other services for granted. They also assume that people will just keep doing what they are doing. But what if currency was worthless and there was no one to make you pay for anything anyway, who would work?

We also take our knowledge for granted. What if the internet was gone? What if computers didn't work because of cyberwarfare and/or no power? Cities are burned or ransacked in this mod, and people may burn books for heat. How many texts with the existing knowledge would be left, and how many people who survive could understand and disseminate them?

Before any technlogies could be "relearned" first working societies would have to form and then relearn technology. My tree tries to show that. The order of the tree is very open for discussion, I was just trying to think as if I were in the situation what would be important to me. So it is heavy on military and production.

If you want good reading on this type of scenario/mod, read the In the Ashes series by William W Johnstone. Basically the world comes apart and the gov't fails. Criminals and others take advantage of it and rape and pillage. Warlords pop up and only those who fight for themselves and try to form working societies get by. People who expect handouts and depend on the kindness of others get taken advantage off and killed or enslaved.

We also take our knowledge for granted. What if the internet was gone? What if computers didn't work because of cyberwarfare and/or no power? Cities are burned or ransacked in this mod, and people may burn books for heat. How many texts with the existing knowledge would be left, and how many people who survive could understand and disseminate them?

The answer to that, unfortunately, hinges on one important things: How did the world end. Sure you can nuke all the big cities, but in many parts of the world, there are rural areas that are filled with lots of small communities that are consider 'dinky' by today's standards but are filled with plenty of stuff. Especially when you think that rural libraries will have lots of old books, many with info on how things used to be done. Knowledge in the age of print is a lot harder to stamp out. Every house could contain a Encyclopedia Brittanica.

Personally, I think your comment about grabbing your gun an leaving is telling. Each starting Civ is made up of people who probably where that proactive. As a 17 year Army vet I can tell you an organized group beats a mob every time. So all it takes is a group of people that collectively work together and they probably could save a lot. Certainly 20 years is a long time and bad things happen, but 20 years is also a long time people who knows what is needed (if only that there once was a way of doing it) to make sure they try to scavenge along the way. Sure your average refugee isn't thinking about the future, but if the game is just about tiny bands of humanity living hand to mouth after 20 years finally coming together, well then the End of The World was so catastrophic that I think it invalidates how much stuff would be left over.

If you want good reading on this type of scenario/mod, read the In the Ashes series by William W Johnstone. Basically the world comes apart and the gov't fails. Criminals and others take advantage of it and rape and pillage. Warlords pop up and only those who fight for themselves and try to form working societies get by. People who expect handouts and depend on the kindness of others get taken advantage off and killed or enslaved.

Well this is why I've pushed for slavery and maybe creating slaves when raiding cottages. People are the most important resource in Fury Road. Without them, you can't support enough of an infrastructure to 'project power' as we say in the military. Also, as I said, depending on your playing style you could go the Warlord route and grow your Civ by force or try to boost culture/safety and try to attract those refugees who don't want to end up in some Warlords serf collection.

I liked your Barb cities idea for that reason. That would represent those Warlords. I agree that slavery or "serfdom" would probably exist. It is likely a fuedal or semi fuedal society would come into being. Read Jared Diamonds Guns Germs and Steel, he talks about the formation of civilizations and how their social and governmental structure changes as they grow.

I feel that with the removal of our current form of government, and with limited resources, those with guns (ie the Power) would form a society that benefits them. IE slavery and serfdom in a fuedal state.

Like you say, organized groups would survive. So that begs the question who has the organization? In the US; likely it would be gangs, white supremacists, Hells Angels, survivalists, militia groups, and maybe small rural communities with their own guns and infrastructure. Also possibly, gov't or former gov't groups. Like Cheyenne Mountain (Jericho) or other military base, and maybe a group of FBI agents. Probably also, dynamic individuals would rally friends, family and others to form a society (like the Six in the Postman).

Now, in the long run, as the society grows; those systems and customs may have to change as more people get a say. In general more people are harder to control and require more democratic forms of government, and the people who survive are likely to be independent and strong willed (and also armed). So they will want more say and one persons influence or cult of personality will have less and less effect. Laws are required once you do not know everyone personally, and the more people, the more laws. Laws require enforcement and judges, etc. You get the point.

I know the mod takes place in Australia but I was thinking about a US scenario. And in the US, there are huge tratcs of land that are undeveloped and barely inhabited. Should there be a kill off of 90% of the population, there would be lots of open territory. It would not be unlikely to have bandits and warlords still roaming parts of the country hundreds of years later.

Read Jared Diamonds Guns Germs and Steel, he talks about the formation of civilizations and how their social and governmental structure changes as they grow.

I have, as well as Collapse. Plus it shows how important things like disease is in the history of man.

I feel that with the removal of our current form of government, and with limited resources, those with guns (ie the Power) would form a society that benefits them. IE slavery and serfdom in a feudal state.

Well that's the thing. That sort of Warlordism is the 'easy' route but it isn't always the best route. Biggest mistake people always make is to assume the "Strongest and the Fittest" is the Big Jock type. Often times its the glib person who can form alliances. Again, it goes back to what I say that it's important to have multiple paths to victory. I once asked a SCA type whether he preferred Baronies or Provinces. He said Baronies because you had one person running things and not a committee. There are times when having a strong central government is good (Union during the ACW) and when it's bad (Currently with our current 'cowboy' go-it-alone President). So I think that each style need definite advantages and disadvantages.



Like you say, organized groups would survive. So that begs the question who has the organization? In the US; likely it would be gangs, white supremacists, Hells Angels, survivalists, militia groups, and maybe small rural communities with their own guns and infrastructure. Also possibly, gov't or former gov't groups. Like Cheyenne Mountain (Jericho) or other military base, and maybe a group of FBI agents. Probably also, dynamic individuals would rally friends, family and others to form a society (like the Six in the Postman).

Well again, you have a lot of places where you'd just have a small towns that could form the nucleus for a culture. Take where I live in the Vancouver/Portland area. Survivors from this area are going to be very different in politics and ideas that survivors from Dallas or Atlanta. However, in Western WA/OR, there are plenty of small towns that I'd have a hard time seeing them totally destroyed because some of them would big enough to have a Guard armory or the like; or a Leader who gets things squared away so as to survive the hordes of refugees.


I know the mod takes place in Australia but I was thinking about a US scenario. And in the US, there are huge tratcs of land that are undeveloped and barely inhabited. Should there be a kill off of 90% of the population, there would be lots of open territory. It would not be unlikely to have bandits and warlords still roaming parts of the country hundreds of years later.

I think this mod screams to have regional scenarios. As I've posted before, your playing style is going to be different in Australia than in the US and things are going to be different in the SouthWest US as opposed to the Pacific North West or on the Eastern Seaboard. Plus, out here, we have less major cities clustered together to all get nuked at once. Take Oregon, except for Portland & Salem, you'd wonder if anyone would bother nuking Eugene or Medford or Ashland to say nothing of Bend or Madras. Yet you look at place back East and their are targets overlapping each other.

I was just thinking about possible techs for this mod while I was playing FfH and thought it would be cool if different flavours had different locked tech lines. Basically I was thinking you could put the starting tech for each civ as a locked tech, like the religous techs in FfH. As an example I have included the preposed tech line for the Gians(reclaim the Earth) and Anti-Techs(tech brought us here, but it wont again) in the spoiler...

"Gian"
Animal Trapping
Promotion:Trapping
10% chance of spawing a slave horse(like worker that can be sacrificed for production)when animal is defeated.
+50% againt animals


Forest Preservation
Improvement:Forest Preservation
Forest Preserve
+1Happy +1Healthy +1g
+10% chance of forest spreading to aject squares
worked 20 turns becomes

Improvement:Forest Garden
+2Happy +2Healthy +2g
+ 20% chance of forest spreading to aject squares

Animal Taming
Promotion: Taming
20% chance of taming defeated animals(you get unit you killed)
100%against animals
Unit:Huntsman
7Atk 3move
Starts with Promotions taming and sentry I

Forest Revival
Improvement:Tree Farm
+2production +2g +1Happy +1Healthy
+30% chance of spreading forest to aject squares
Worked 35 turns becomes
Hybred Tree Farm
+3production +3g +1Happy +1Healthy
+50% chance of spreading forest to aject squares
Workers can plant forest on grassland and plains

Animal Training
Unit:Rider(requires horses)
12Atk 3move
+50% in forest

Unit:Mounted Archer
14Atk 2move
50% in forest

Unit:Gaurd Dogs
8Atk 1move
+50% city def

Bio-Engineering
Promotion: Biohazardous
+100% against mele, archer, mounted,(everything not mechanical)

Unit:Bio-Warrior
18Atk 3move double movement in forest
Starts with Biohazardous promotion

Unit:Bioenhanced Worker
3move ignore movement cost
Builds improvements 50% faster

Improvement:Tree Asembly Line
+4production +5g +3Happy +3Health
+100% chance of spreading forest to aject square

Building:Bio-Dome
+3Happy +5Health

Building:Walking Woods
+100% city def
+50% against vehicles
+ 2 safety



"Anti Tech"
Crude Weponry
Unit:Bowman
10Atk 1move
+50%city def

Building:Baricade
+20% city def
+1 saftey


Military Trainning
Building:Training Camp
+2xp to units built in city
+1 safety

Promotion:Pratice I
+10% Atk

Promotion:Practice II
+20%Atk
+50% against melee

Promotion:Practice III
+30%Atk
+100% against melee
+50% against mounted

Promotion:Practice IV
+40%Atk
+150% against melee
+100% against mounted
+50% against gun infantry

Promotion:Practive V
+50%Atk
+200% against melee
+150% against mounted
+100% against gun infantry
+50% againt vehicles


Disasembly Line
Promotion:Disasembly
+100% vs vehicles

Unit:Sabatour
8Atk 2move
Invisible
Starts with Disasembly and Comando

Building:Disasembly Plant
+20% vs vehicles
+2production +2safety
[/SIZE]
I have more coming, but what do you think so far? Should I bother coming up with more?

That's an interesting idea. I have not done much to "differentiate" the leaders/civs. In fact apart from the traits, there is no difference in play at all. I like the FFH idea where each civ has completely different units and strategies. But getting them all in and balanced is a tremendous amount of work. There is a thread where we were discussing unique units for each civ. I would probably start there. When I do more work on Fury Road, first I will redo the tech tree and get that balanced, then add unique units. So this type of "differentiation" may be further in the future.

What about a mutant tech tree, for the later periods, showing later generations are changing from the radiation?

What about a mutant tech tree, for the later periods, showing later generations are changing from the radiation?

See the latest Leaderhead background for a society of mutants...

I was just thinking about possible techs for this mod while I was playing FfH and thought it would be cool if different flavours had different locked tech lines. Basically I was thinking you could put the starting tech for each civ as a locked tech, like the religious techs in FfH. As an example I have included the proposed tech line for the Gians(reclaim the Earth) and Anti-Techs(tech brought us here, but it wont again)

I have more coming, but what do you think so far? Should I bother coming up with more?

You might want to go back a bit in the messages and read some of my posts on this issue since I also talked about a Gaian and a Luddite faction. In regard to the Anti-tech Luddite faction, however, I've argued that to make the group work, the combat system must be balanced to where lots of low tech units can (if used effectively) beat a Civ with less higher tech units, otherwise it isn't worth the time and trouble.

You might want to go back a bit in the messages and read some of my posts on this issue since I also talked about a Gaian and a Luddite faction. In regard to the Anti-tech Luddite faction, however, I've argued that to make the group work, the combat system must be balanced to where lots of low tech units can (if used effectively) beat a Civ with less higher tech units, otherwise it isn't worth the time and trouble.

When I posted the "Anti-Tech" tech line (which isn't all there I have more:D) I was thinking of guys that take anti tech to an almost religeous level. They don't just hate tech, they want to rid the world of it completely, by any means nessesary (even if that includes using the occational piece of technology):eek: So I think your idea is great, but that isn't where I was taking my idea from. (In fact, at the end I put a tech that alows the Tech Apocolypce where 100s of EMPs are stolen and detenated, destroying all machinery, I know it's kinda hipocritical, but sometimes people are blinded by their cause:nuke:)

See the latest Leaderhead background for a society of mutants...

Where is that?

I think some techs/units to make salvaging from ruins more active would be cool.

Maybe a Salvager unit that can fight a little, say Str 6 like a survivor, with bonuses against barbarians and animals, that you can send into ruins and have perform "explore" command, that takes 4 turns, and either turns up something good (refugees, lost tech, etc) or something bad (mutant animals, barbarians, etc).

When I posted the "Anti-Tech" tech line (which isn't all there I have more:D) I was thinking of guys that take anti tech to an almost religious level.

I get you. (In fact, I get you twice; the system must have burped and I lost my original response to this.)


In one of my previous post, I said that I felt the Luddites could represent people that felt technology was the root of the problem that brought about the Doom of Man(tm) in the same way as the bad guys in the old Charlton Heston film "The Omega Man" did.

I feel the Gaians will use technology, but they want a greener tech with a softer footprint on the Earth as well as they need tech to fix the damage done by the war. Anyway, there is a big difference between wanting to live a greener way and wanting to live like a Amish like existence.

I think some techs/units to make salvaging from ruins more active would be cool.

Maybe a Salvager unit that can fight a little, say Str 6 like a survivor, with bonuses against barbarians and animals, that you can send into ruins and have perform "explore" command, that takes 4 turns, and either turns up something good (refugees, lost tech, etc) or something bad (mutant animals, barbarians, etc).

The new version of FFH includes a cool development by Marnok, called explorable dungeons. This was pointed out to me way early in the Fury Road threads, and it was a separate mod, but it is in FFH 0.34. I am sure everybody is off playing that this week. I agree it would be cool to incorporate more of that into Fury Road in the future.

Where is that?

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=284390&page=4

Post 67.

The new version of FFH includes a cool development by Marnok, called explorable dungeons. This was pointed out to me way early in the Fury Road threads, and it was a separate mod, but it is in FFH 0.34. I am sure everybody is off playing that this week. I agree it would be cool to incorporate more of that into Fury Road in the future.

Oh yeah, Im way into FFH .34

One thing Id like for Fury Road is for the ruins not to disappear once they're explored, leaving them open to be explored multiple times.