It's been bugging me for a while.

Summoning Basium sucks.

You don't share resources, you double your research costs, and you either switch and have a tard ai partner with most of the resources, or you stay yourself and basium suicides his awesome self on the first person to notice him.

Am I the only one that sees him as one hell of a negative?

It's been bugging me for a while.

Summoning Basium sucks.

You don't share resources, you double your research costs, and you either switch and have a tard ai partner with most of the resources, or you stay yourself and basium suicides his awesome self on the first person to notice him.

Am I the only one that sees him as one hell of a negative?

You dont double your research costs, teams pool their research. In general a 2 player team is much more efficient than a 1 player team with all the combined resources. Less maintenance for cities and units, plus the bonus palace for the mercurians, and increased national unit limits (which are all player based and not team based).

But Basium certainly will draw you into a lot of wars in an evil world.

You don't double the costs, but they do go up by 50% per extra member. FfH does not override this in its Global DefinesAlt.xml:
<Define>
<DefineName>TECH_COST_EXTRA_TEAM_MEMBER_MODIFIER</DefineName>
<iDefineIntVal>50</iDefineIntVal>
</Define>(I'd recommend setting this to 0, and also setting MAX_NATIONAL_WONDERS_PER_CITY_FOR_OCC to -1.)


Also, when Basium takes his city he tends to drastically reduce his teammate's ability to research, and takes a while to regain that level of research.



I do think he needs some boost too. I tend to like giving Basium a lot more traits than most leaders (Aggressive, Raiders, Spiritual, Ingenuity, Defensive, Charismatic, Organized, etc), but still fewer than I give Hyborem (why the hell (pun intended) does Hyborem have Expansive instead of somehting he could actually use?). Giving them more traits makes it much more satisfying to kill heroes and deprive them of those extra traits.

Basium doesn't have any research...

I've got five cities as luchiurp, pumping out 250ish research a turn. I pop Basium and my research requirements double. The amount of research I'm making drops, and the amount of research Basium is making just barely does more than make up what I lost.

It's the drawbacks of a team, but there is no team because Basium doesn't have the resources of a side, Basium has resources from your side.

Edit: You real real sure it's not double?

We ARE all quite sure. The reason prolly is you were dumb nough to put the Mercuian Gate in one of your important cities, as far as research goes anyway. Here's a tip: Never put Basium in a city that you'll want later. In other words, put him in your 5th or 6th best city.

Actually, I built him a new one in the corpse of an enemy empire, stuck a couple great engineers in it, and popped the gate with a third before switching. It's still nerfed the . .. .. .. . out of my top research spot, even at 50%, my team is two thirds as effective at research as I was before I became a team My piddling 35 research from Basium is nothing next to the 300+ total. The military front is even worse, the AI half has killed two whole units in the last hundred turns or so against my brother. I just wiped out a city with a nice stack of defenders in it, including Mardero.

My AI has access to five cities with around 400 production between them, paladins, war chariots, crossbows and clockwork golems aren't enough for it to have any effect beyond feeding experience to my opponent.

It isn't double (200%), but 150%. That is still too much though.

I agree with the OP's comment, especially on the AI you have to deal with whether you decided to keep your old civ or go with Basium.

I built the Mercurian Gate in my 8th (and last) city. Basically, the Mercurians made my Research for something like Mercantilism go from 8 turns to 16 turns. Of course, scoring-wise you both get the points when the research is done. :)

The AI is just pathetic for Basium and the Mercurians. For about 50 turns Basium sat in a city (wars being declared allover the place as there were 5 AV civs). Then, in a stroke of genius, out he goes ALONE and is killed in a few turns. In this game, Hyborem is gone, and there are no Good civs so dead units don't produce much (Angels or Manes). I find myself having to defend not only my cities but the Mercurian cities as well. The building strategy of the Mercurians is just bizarre.

One question related to this on the scoring:

If you play all the way through a game to a Time Victory, it seems Basium's score is counted for the victory, but not counted for your individual score. I was wondering if that is true also when you have Minister Koun on your team?

Well it must be the AI because I had a good run as Basium.
Basium shouldn't really do any research when he first arrives. He needs to conquer an empire first, and considering how dire losing the Basium unit is, it should really have a 99% odds before attacking.
I was going to attach a screen shot of an event where I had the option of execution a unit for torturing prisoners, and the unit was Basium but it's just a black screen for some reason. This was probably because of the bug where events would always target the first unit made.

the research penalty doesnt bother me as much as the GP threshold increases from team members

I had Bassium march with a proud army of 1 angel to assault my empire. He got smished. I've never seen Hyborem do that, although the horned one's course of action isn't much better. All I've ever seen him do is expand with settlers as much as possible and turtle in Dis until I decide he needs offing.

Recently I found the Basium AI to be a big threat to me, attacking with advanced units in one and conquering a small part of my empire in another.
I think a good idea would be to not summon him if there isn't much good religion spread in the world, but if there is that and lots of wars, he'll probably be an asset.

The Weakest I've ever seen Basium was in a game where Cardith Lorda Summoned him in the CENTER of his empire. It was odd, since Lorda wasn't in any wars, I was beating the snot out of Alexis and Hyborem, and Lorda gave up one of 5 overly close cities to summon him. I don't think he ever promoted another city. The only time I saw a Mecurien unit was When I walked past the City. Course, I was soon at was with a Veil Varn Gossam, A Veil Keelyn, and a RoK Tasunke, and not using any units, so Basium wasn't getting many angels anyway.

I recently summoned Basium for the first time ever and the research penalty nearly finished me. my own fault though. I had Empyrian (spelling?) as state religion and had erronously started research on Fanaticism because I had forgotten that this is for the Order hero not the Emp one. I only realized my mistake after like 15 turn and decided to finish the research and then switch to the correct one. And tadaaa, Basium arrives and suddenly Fanaticism (which, again, I didn't really need) was a long, long time away again.

And Basium of course declared war on three of my neighbours which, without the religious hero, got kind of dangerous real quick :)

Why the hell (pun intended) does Hyborem have Expansive instead of somehting he could actually use?

I've always wondered this. Hyborem's traits aren't very demonic. I still play with compact enforced nowadays. Don't see the need for Basium or Hyborem in the game; they just aren't interesting enough!

Al

Actually, I built him a new one in the corpse of an enemy empire, stuck a couple great engineers in it, and popped the gate with a third before switching. It's still nerfed the . .. .. .. . out of my top research spot, even at 50%, my team is two thirds as effective at research as I was before I became a team My piddling 35 research from Basium is nothing next to the 300+ total. The military front is even worse, the AI half has killed two whole units in the last hundred turns or so against my brother. I just wiped out a city with a nice stack of defenders in it, including Mardero.

My AI has access to five cities with around 400 production between them, paladins, war chariots, crossbows and clockwork golems aren't enough for it to have any effect beyond feeding experience to my opponent.

It sounds to me like all of your real problems were due to bad plannin.

It isn't double (200%), but 150%. That is still too much though.


Where'd ya find that out?

C:\Program Files\Firaxis Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 4\Beyond the Sword\Assets\XML\GlobalDefines.xml

(I found out it is too much by playing the game a few times :p)

Ok, but that applies to all alliances, as that's a BTS specific file and not new to FfH.

So, psychoak, your problem is Firaxis' fault, not Kael's. Therefore, either edit it yourself in the file Magister specified or complain to Firaxis. Good luck.

You could also override any define found in C:\Program Files\Firaxis Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 4\Beyond the Sword\Assets\XML\GlobalDefines.xml in C:\Program Files\Firaxis Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 4\Beyond the Sword\Mods\Fall from Heaven 2 032\Assets\XML\GlobalDefinesAlt.xml. That way the main game and other mods would not be effected, but FfH would.

I would make the case that the whole extraplanar armies need a bit of a reworking anyway. It makes much more sense if you are Basium to Slaughter the good civilizations first so you can get lots of angels, the same thing goes for Hyborem and the Evil civilizations.

Perhaps utilizing the "Great General" Bar for Basium and Hyborem instead - as they kill units, more armies are summoned to erebus to help with the war? I'd reduce the XP required for new units significantly and grow it slowly at first. Hyborem might still need a bit of a boost to get more manes since he needs them for city growth though.

I could also see if my view is shared in the appropriate place to do so, the forum for the mod.

My planning was excellent, my takeover AI had the resources and unit access to single handedly win the game, and I was pumping 150+ military production in short order. Likewise my planning in previous games has also been excellent. I usually let Basium play himself, spawn him in a recent conquest outside my core empire that I want to have, and conquer around him, giving him his own core empire to play with.

What is not excellent is a complete lack of use from an AI team mate that starts out with dick in the late game and doesn't do anything of merit. Against the AI Basium is merely impotent, against my brother, I dare say it's suicide. My brother isn't a strategic genius either, he doesn't even use hawks to scout his border and gets important units killed regularly by edge of empire incursions. I took myself from nigh invincible and sure to win, to an inept AI side that lost a 125% defense city to a small, half dead army with three times the troops in range of it the turn before.

If the AI were even marginally competent, this might not be an issue at all, but I can't see the use in the guy as is by any stretch of the imagination. Summoning him, whether you switch or not, just gives your opponent a better research rate and free experience.

If you clearly knew all this, why did you bother to summon him? Cuz you always do? Well, there's a plannin flaw. Do the unexpected! You did wat you always do tho. And, now, you're whinin cuz it backfired one of out countless times. Yeah...sooner or later, probability tells ya it's gonna backfire.

If you're borderline retarded I guess it's not something I can fault you for, but your arrogant assumptions are the height of stupidity. Perhaps you could leave the replies to those with intellect?

Keep the discussion civil.

Psychoak, I understand what you're talking about. My advice would be until Basium is fixed, or made somewhat better, to not build the Mercurian gate unless you plan to control him.

I would make the case that the whole extraplanar armies need a bit of a reworking anyway. It makes much more sense if you are Basium to Slaughter the good civilizations first so you can get lots of angels, the same thing goes for Hyborem and the Evil civilizations.

Perhaps utilizing the "Great General" Bar for Basium and Hyborem instead - as they kill units, more armies are summoned to erebus to help with the war? I'd reduce the XP required for new units significantly and grow it slowly at first. Hyborem might still need a bit of a boost to get more manes since he needs them for city growth though.

I think your point was that it makes sense strategically but not narratively. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Anyway, it makes perfect sense if it's someone else killing the units. Also in this universe the immortal soul does exist and everyone knows it. See this post:
Another thing to consider about Os-Gabella, to her mortal lifespans are ridiculously short. They are nothing but flies. Killing others to achieve her ends may seem drastic, but through her eyes they are only a few short breaths from death anyway.

She also understands the pattern of "eternal life". Through normal death the soul goes on to serve some god waging an endless, pointless (to her) war against each other. Or cast into the purgatory that is Arawns underworld trapped within the visions of their dreams, or the eternal slave of some necromancer or evil priest.

She wantrs to break the whole cycle. She doesn't want to kill everyone in the normal anti-life kind of mentality, she wants to end creation itself. She believes that the experiment has failed and the only thing to do now is to end it.

Therefore Basium (or someone else) would get their souls in a very short time by his perspective on time anyway, but he only has a short time to save creation. If you wanna make an omelet, you gotta crack a few heads.

A couple of changes I make when playing FfH2 are: the Infernal and Mercurian palaces both give +40g instead of +8g, Basium's default AI is changed from UNITAI_ATTACK to UNITAI_CITY_DEFENSE.

The above definately helps Hyborem when he pops out and it also keeps Basium from committing suicide.

It's been bugging me for a while.

Summoning Basium sucks.



Basium would appear to be designed for Cardith Lorda, although the research hit is a bit of a downer. You have just inspired me to try it out :)

Also don't forget that you can gift cities (and settelments I assume?) to Basium. Evening research between the two of you should improve things.

I'm not so sure. Sure, it is good to have an ally to give all your cities and settlements (which become normal cities under his control), but if you only have a few supercities then losing one of those will hurt a lot more. (If the gate could be built in Settlements then this would be absolutely awesome.) The city Basium takes will lose its larger city radius, and have trouble supporting itself when he first takes over. A lot of times it seems like his city doesn't


I usually prefer summon Basium when playing as the Khazad. Losing a city means more gold per city, and they can usually build the gate faster anyway. It is probably best to use an army of Soldiers of Kilmorph to rush build the Mercurian Gate in one of your smaller and more distant cities. The Khazad normally wouldn't want to conquer too much (although their high production means they probably could if they wanted to) because of financial concerns, but if you gift all conquered cities to Basium that is not a problem.


(While you can gift cites to your permanent allies, they won't always accept. If their economy is bad and/or the city is too distant then it will be listed in Red, so you can't offer it to them.)

If you're borderline retarded I guess it's not something I can fault you for, but your arrogant assumptions are the height of stupidity. Perhaps you could leave the replies to those with intellect?

Keep the discussion civil.

Perhaps, you should look at the truth of my statements and quit thinkin I'm jus bein arrogant. (While you're at it, quit tryin to insult me. It doesn't make you look smart. Jus a fact.) And my assumptions are true. Like it or not, any mathematician (or engineering student, which is wat I am) can tell you probability will do somethin you hate if you keep repeatin things. And, frankly, most players have a strategy that works for them and use it repetively. Maybe they mix it up by summonin Basium or changin civs. But they fall into a pattern of sorts, which means sooner or later the pattern backfires. That's why I made those assumptions, not because I'm arrogant. But if you still think I'm arrogant, such is your prerogative.

I've found he takes babysitting a while. Still it's worth it, if the game is close. Angels can tilt the scales, and keeping him alive means some heavy backup once Basium's national units come out. Played Mercurians today for the first time, pretty nice. Though seemed like Basium himself is a lot more fragile than most hero units. Even at ~99% tended to loose at least half life from battles.

Even at ~99% tended to loose at least half life from battles.

Hmm...interestin. Most heroes will lose nothin at say 65%. I wonder why Basium loses half at 99%. Maybe there's somethin in the code to fix that.

True statements are not insults.

Do you go into every thread discussing the worth of a particular tactic and bash the poster for always using the same strategy? How about you counter my assumptions, something that no one has done yet instead of just telling me I'm predictable and suck without having any idea what you're talking about?

I'm guessing my favorite moderator will be reading this, ban me if you want, but he's an idiot.

Magister, is this against AI or another player that you find Basium worth it as Khazad? I've never managed to get him at immortal or deity, someone always beats me to the punch when I try. Against my brother, I found it to be catastrophic, it was just more territory for me to defend, no help at all on the offense.

I've never actually played a single multiplayer game (excluding hotseat games)

I never really play above Prince either. (I'm more about modding the game to make it more fun than trying to actually win or become a more competitive player.)

Also, I tend to mod Basium (and Hyborem) to be much stronger than usual, so it probably is less useful in an unmodded game.

:(

Anyone not get their ass kicked against dangerous opponents when using Basium in any situation?

Both the infernals and the angels should get planar gate-like improvements that spawn units for them at random for free. That would make them powerful enough to be agressive, and would have the added benefit of linking their power to the Armageddon Counter.

I built the Mercurian Gate in my 7th city yesterday as the Grigori. I was researching Gunpowder and it went from 8 to 18 turns.

One dumb move was building the Gate in a city with a religion.

As a result, Basium keeps trying to research the Order at 500+ turns. I ask him to switch to something else I am researching (even though there is zero impact on reducing research time), and he does. However, a few turns later he is back to the Order even though I am still in the middle of researching Gunpowder. :(

Also, just terrible AI. Basium has not moved out of his city for over 200 turns. He is piling up many Angels in the three cities in the civ, but they also seem to be glued as defenders - even though there are no imminent threats. I have a couple of wars on my hands and no support from my ally.

Oh well, you summon Basium, you just have to expect this AI.

One other thing, for some reason, he continues to gift resources to me which I gifted to him some time ago and already have plenty of instances. :confused:

PS. Not being able to build Shadows as the Grigori still blows!:p

Basium is too trigger happy, especially considering his total lack of military effectiveness. He makes you fight all his wars for him. It's like he's the little dog who bites at absolutely everyone, and then runs behind mommy at the first sign of trouble.

If he were more intelligent about his targets, say by starting at the weakest AV civs and then working his way up to the big fries rather than going everyone at once, maybe he'd be more tolerable.

Hyborem seems like a genius by comparison.

Well, you can control the targetting for him. He auto-declares war if you are at peace for 20 turns as I recall. So you just have to declare before he does.

PS. Not being able to build Shadows as the Grigori still blows! I did last night. You just need to take over a Council of Esus city. Or join the undercouncil and hope the nightwatch resolution comes up.
(In other words, you need a city with the religion, but not an empire.)

Don't you get a Nightwatch upon discovering Deception? I believe the Grigori can get that tech. I've had Shadow adventurers before.

I did last night. You just need to take over a Council of Esus city. Or join the undercouncil and hope the nightwatch resolution comes up.
(In other words, you need a city with the religion, but not an empire.)

That would work, if...

The game I have been playing has been filled with wars. I can say I have taken/razed over 50 cities and not a single one had CoE religion in it. :( I just don't see that getting spread in my games by the AI civs - only the cities that researched Deception and that is a precious few.

Also, I haven't had a chance or been able to join the Undercouncil. I forget how that works (what tech you need), but it hasn't come up.

I just really enjoyed using those Shadows in previous late games, but haven't been able to get one as the Grigori in the last versions. Oh well, the Grigori do have Adventurer heroes and, IMO, I just love setting off their WorldSpell in the late game and watching the GPs flow in. :)

The agnostic Grigori can't join the Undercouncil (except in modmods) because it requires Deception, which they are blocked from researching. That rules out the Nightwatch resolution.

You pretty much just have to wait and hope it spreads to one of your cities.

Don't you get a Nightwatch upon discovering Deception? I believe the Grigori can get that tech. I've had Shadow adventurers before.



It must have been in a prior version, Raize. The Grigori have not been able to research any of the religion techs, including Deception (no Trojan Horse either, :cry:) the last couple of versions.

I wish...

Frankly, there are some techs that are pretty useless to them such as Priesthood, Theology, etc., but they can research those. I guess they have some purpose, but not much unless you can have a state religion. It would be nice if there were some Grigori-unique techs substituted for those missing and those that should be missing.

Oh, I know why it is. I always beeline for the Eyes and Ears Network. So as long as two other civs have Deception, I'll get the Nightwatch. Last time I tried this with the Grigori was with .32G, I think?

Well, it prolly changed since then. We're on 'l' now.

Well, it prolly changed since then. We're on 'l' now.

It has not changed; the Grigori can still get all of the religion techs from the Eyes and Ears Network.

The agnostic Grigori can't join the Undercouncil (except in modmods) because it requires Deception, which they are blocked from researching. That rules out the Nightwatch resolution.

You pretty much just have to wait and hope it spreads to one of your cities.

My bad, sorry.
Going out and taking one is a somewhat unlikely option as well, I guess, what with the invisiblity.

twinpost !

It has not changed; the Grigori can still get all of the religion techs from the Eyes and Ears Network.

Sorry, should've been more specific. I meant that the Grigori, if I remember correctly could get all the religious techs like everyone else (but couldn't adopt a state religion, obviously), but now they can't. Hence, they can't get a Nightwatch for Deception.

I guess it depends how long your games go. Frankly, I almost never get a chance to build that Eyes and Ears Network - it comes late, and often I am ahead in tech and do not have the required 3 open border agreements with other civs (if 3 are left!). Also, it just seems like I am scurrying to build many other things and just skip that one.

Again, it is a pretty obscure way of getting Deception/CoE/Shadows. I think the Grigori should be able to build them with Guild researched and no CoE religion in a city as it is so tough to do. ;)

It's been bugging me for a while.

Summoning Basium sucks.

You don't share resources, you double your research costs, and you either switch and have a tard ai partner with most of the resources, or you stay yourself and basium suicides his awesome self on the first person to notice him.

Am I the only one that sees him as one hell of a negative?

in my current game i build basium and it's true, he double the research time (from 5 turns [or was it 7] to 10 turns). <-- this sux
i like the concept of beeng in the team with basium but in this special case there should be no +50% tech cost....

I still think that the upgraded forms of the angels should have lower tech requirements, and some of them should have none.

If your system is going to be that angels can move vertically through the host via training and XP, then why not make that a replacement for the need to research as far? It also makes it that much cooler the few times you get an early level 26 angel to beat face with.

Apart from the research problems, there is also a war weariness problem, which is even worse. Basium attacks and defends like a berserk and looses a lot of units, and apparently his WW applies to the whole team.

Ok, but that applies to all alliances, as that's a BTS specific file and not new to FfH.


Alliances are OFF by default in Civ4. They are a mere option like many other stupid ones. FFH enables it by default with Basium and the new random guy I forgot the name of. So I would definitely say it's a problem for FFH.