i play a huge map against 23 civs and im pretty much the only good guy since the good civs are horrible in huge maps (especially that pink kid). so since im order fighting the dreaded av it would seem natural to summon the angels for help, right? wrong. since basium cant do nothing in a bad map. maybe there needs to be a change in the concept - instead of good people dying and joining basium's army as angels, bad guys can die and be punished by eternaly serving basium...?

the same of course applies to hyborem, but i never saw the evil guys outnumbered.

and another very important thing!!!
in the regular civ 4 there is a regenerate map button...
kael for your consideration

There's already a thread about Basium sucking....

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=282475

i play a huge map against 23 civs and im pretty much the only good guy since the good civs are horrible in huge maps (especially that pink kid). so since im order fighting the dreaded av it would seem natural to summon the angels for help, right? wrong. since basium cant do nothing in a bad map. maybe there needs to be a change in the concept - instead of good people dying and joining basium's army as angels, bad guys can die and be punished by eternaly serving basium...?

the same of course applies to hyborem, but i never saw the evil guys outnumbered.

and another very important thing!!!
in the regular civ 4 there is a regenerate map button...
kael for your consideration

The Extra-planars are both very dependent on their start situation. If they arrive early and in a good position, they can both be powerhouses. Under human control at least...

Under AI control they tend to realise that they're "very small" in the grand scheme and turtle away, trying not to draw attention. That's a general AI issue though rather than something specific to Basium (other than the fact he tends to arrive late and falls into the situation more than most)

==

Regarding the "Regenerate Map" - it was present in early versions, but was removed as it didn't perform certain pre-game actions when a map was re-generated. Settlers for instance did not receive their starting bonus on a regenerated map. Whether or not it'll be re-added later I'm not sure, but it was definitely considered and deliberately removed for the time being.

The problem is...there's already nother thread on this. Click the url that rusty217 posted.

The problem is...there's already nother thread on this. Click the url that rusty217 posted.

If you post in an old thread, people will accuse you of thread necromancy. If you start a new thread, other people will point you to the old thread.

It's the cruel dilemma that every man must confront before hitting the "New Post" button.

If you post in an old thread, people will accuse you of thread necromancy. If you start a new thread, other people will point you to the old thread.

It's the cruel dilemma that every man must confront before hitting the "New Post" button.

:rolleyes: It's not thread necromancy if the thread is on the front page.

:rolleyes: It's not thread necromancy if the thread is on the front page.

Odds are good that someone would disagree with that!

But no, it's not.

The reason people have been crying about thread necromancy recently is because that one guy was bumping threads that aren't even relevant anymore.

Necro a thread that might still matter and no one will moan.

For example, the still active thread on Basium not titled "Basium Sucks".

If you post in an old thread, people will accuse you of thread necromancy. If you start a new thread, other people will point you to the old thread.

It's the cruel dilemma that every man must confront before hitting the "New Post" button.

The other thread had been posted to less than 40 minutes before this one was started.

Under AI control they tend to realise that they're "very small" in the grand scheme and turtle away, trying not to draw attention. That's a general AI issue though rather than something specific to Basium (other than the fact he tends to arrive late and falls into the situation more than most)


In BTS, Alex will declare war, by himself, with an army that is hopelessly outnumbered and outclassed (also, you can pay him to do it at like cautious - for pennies if you have a positive war-diplo modifier). I suspect the first spear vs. tank victory was accomplished by a soldier of Alex. It's different than Monty; there is some personality modifier to 'aggression regardless of power' and 'will go to war for spare change'. Could Hyborem/Basium's be adjusted?

So, Alexander went to war, with only Spearman and other ancient units, against Tanks and modern units? And he managed to kill a tank. Huh, AI sometimes. It happens to cause the wierdest resutls. LOL! Did Alex's army have lots of promotions? (Not that a Spearman should be able to match a Tank even with all the promotions possible for it.) Or do ya think that one Tank was jus unlucky?

I imagine he got killed tho once the Tanks and Infantry descended on him. Poor, stupid AI. It's funny how you die. (Was that rhyme a bit much? Sorry, I did a Perpentach thing there. I'm done tho.) It's wierd tho how say a warrior in BTS could defend against a Knight or Maceman simply cuz the city the warrior is defendin has like 150% defense, which I always thought was a bit much.

In BTS, Alex will declare war, by himself, with an army that is hopelessly outnumbered and outclassed (also, you can pay him to do it at like cautious - for pennies if you have a positive war-diplo modifier). I suspect the first spear vs. tank victory was accomplished by a soldier of Alex. It's different than Monty; there is some personality modifier to 'aggression regardless of power' and 'will go to war for spare change'. Could Hyborem/Basium's be adjusted?

I think this is already done. Hyborem and Basium both love to go to war (Basium especially, but Hyborem as well). Their power ratings are inflated in order to encourage them to be more aggressive, but the fact that they rarely control more than a handful of cities really mitigates that.

For Hyborem, at least, it might help if he just started with some Settlers so he can grow immediately. For Basium, perhaps more than just the city with the Mercurian Gate should be turned over.

Hm, perhaps Basium should automatically come with the great commander promotion as well?

I'd also suggest that Basium (and Hyboream) start with a number of angels/demons based on how many units have been killed in the game so far.

Well, edit it in the XML for Basium to have a great commander promotion attached to him. Don't know why he needs it tho; he's already a hero.

I've always figured it'd be nice if the extraplanar civs started out with armies based on the scores of the current surviving civilizations. For instance, Hyborem could always spawn with enough units that he'd match the score of the second-place civ. This could cause a few unit mantainence problems, though...

Yeah, money is the issue here.

This could cause a few unit mantainence problems, though...

So lets just start them with money depending on turn/speed/power of other civs.

I've always figured it'd be nice if the extraplanar civs started out with armies based on the scores of the current surviving civilizations. For instance, Hyborem could always spawn with enough units that he'd match the score of the second-place civ. This could cause a few unit mantainence problems, though...

How about his initial troops start with a promotion that makes them require no maintenance, if thats even possible...

I would like to reiterate my planar gate suggestion from the other thread. If he received angels for free according to the AC, then he would eventually be a force to be reckoned with.

Also, part of the reason the Infernals are so strong is their Hell Terrain defensive bonus. Angels should get some kind of similar bonus/be able to easily reverse Hell terrain.

Also, part of the reason the Infernals are so strong is their Hell Terrain defensive bonus.

I don't think such a small bonus has much to do with the Infernals being stronger than the Mercurians, it's probably due to them having more room to expand as I usually see them appear before the Mercurians and they start with about three settlers, the free buildings also help them, with the obsidian gates allowing defenders to move to where ever the attacks occur, and they are also much more willing to attack, with Hyborem having two lives and Basium only having one life.

Well, the Infernal have to enter before the Mecurians. One of the Prerequisits for the gate is that the Infernals are in the game, whether you know it or not. (Or was that changed for some reason?)

That was changed.

I don't think such a small bonus has much to do with the Infernals being stronger than the Mercurians

It's part of it. They have an advantage on their native terrain, which spreads with them. How often have you fought them on non-Hell terrain?

Mostly, it's because they spawn in the middle of nowhere, with lots of room to expand, whereas Basi and Co usually spawn in the middle of someone's empire.

So, in what virsion was it Changed? I presume it was changed because the Mecurians were entering to late?

It was changed patly so that players could always play as Mercs if they wanted, w/o having to rely on Ai's actions.

I'm all for removing maintenance costs for Angelic and Demonic units, period. The backstory tells us that they are not on Erebus for the cash....they are here to win.

Human/living units should still cose maintenance, but any unit with the Angelic or Demonic promotions (for any civ) should be free of maintenance, imho.

That is a good point. Since they already can't be built, your suggestion wouldn't cause unbalance and may make many people want to play those 2 civs more often. So, less, there's a reason like the FfH team tried to do that already and it kept causin CTDs, I say it's a good idea.

I think only angelic units should be free of maintenance, as the demons are buildable while angels are not.

I'd suspect that some demons (those serving Mammon or Esus in life) may very well be here for cash....

Yeah, making Angels maintenance free makes but making you still pay a price for Demons would be good.

It's part of it. They have an advantage on their native terrain, which spreads with them. How often have you fought them on non-Hell terrain?

Mostly, it's because they spawn in the middle of nowhere, with lots of room to expand, whereas Basi and Co usually spawn in the middle of someone's empire.\

Sorry, I just am not seeing what your wrote in the last sentence. I wrote in the bugs thread that in just about every game I play the Infernals are victims of very poor placement of their civ when they are summoned. In my last game despite plenty of the map still wide open they were squeezed into a very small area between my civ and another (and a large lake) and far away from the civ that summoned them.

They never had a chance and were wiped out in short order. I have seen this going back several versions, by the way. You just don't seem to have any control (like you do with Basium when you choose the city to build the Gate in) on where Hyborem plops down and most of the time in my experience his starting position is terrible.

\

Sorry, I just am not seeing what your wrote in the last sentence.

I never build Basium, and when the AI does, it places him in a city in the middle of their empire, surrounded on all sides by populated land. I've had a few games where the Infernals just set around in Dis, but I've also had a few where they take over a continent and become a huge threat to the world, but I've never seen Basium do anything.

MalkutX: I agree that Basium never does anything under AI hands, but neither does Hyboream. You really saw it take over a whole continent? Can I have a screenshot or save? And are they really that scary when they do?

MalkutX: I agree that Basium never does anything under AI hands, but neither does Hyboream. You really saw it take over a whole continent? Can I have a screenshot or save? And are they really that scary when they do?

Once. I don't have a screenshot, but I was once playing a Terra game and Hyborem beat us all to the New World... it was not pretty.

MalkutX: I agree that Basium never does anything under AI hands, but neither does Hyboream. You really saw it take over a whole continent? Can I have a screenshot or save? And are they really that scary when they do?

Twice, but I don't have saves, unfortunately.

The first time I was Faeryl on a Continents map. I shared a continent with Keelyn, who founded Ashen Veil. She had to die, and so did her cities. I then sailed to the other continent looking for more prey, and found the entire place covered in Hell terrain. It was awful. Demons were everywhere. The Bannor, the Malakim, and the Ljosalfar and Basium were all trying to fight him, and they were all losing. His empire was so large that I just started a new game, rather than attempt an intercontinental invasion against a foe that large and advanced.

The second time was as the Sheaim. I was on the same continent this time, but trapped behind an impassible mountain range. After I summoned him, Buboes ate Alexis' entire empire. That gave him a huge area to expand in, and lots of pop to do it with. By the end of the game, the entire world was covered in Hell terrain, and Hyborem was in second place (after me).

In both cases, it was simply a matter of feeding him as many manes as possible, hence my planar gate idea that would give him manes (and Basium angels) at random.

The other thing is, Hyborem doesn't depend on terrain to make his cities effective. All he has to do is run one of the infinite-specialists civics and keep settling manes.

Basium, however, has to depend on puny hairless apes to work for him, and usually by the time he appears there's no space to settle and his Angels are too weak to go forth and conquer.

The ONLY time I've seen an AI Basium be even remotely effective is when I gifted him Rage and Guilds, then spammed Vicars with Theocracy, Apprenticeship, Conquest, Dies Dei, a CP, Form of the Titan, AND a level 5 Altar of the Luonnatar. And I still managed to conquer more cities with just my suicide squads than he did with his angels.

I guess it does depend on the type and size of map you use for your games. I always use Large land maps - no continents.

But, I still cannot for the life of me understand why the AI places Hyborem far away from the civ that summoned him and more often than not squeezes him and his party into a very bad location between two or more civs that are his natural enemies.

He would be much more of a thread and make the game so much more interesting if he was placed in open territory with a chance to expand. Particularly, if he comes in the later game when the other civs can quickly take him out with advanced units.

When I decide to build the Mercurian Gate in one of my cities I am going to lose, I honestly don't pick one of my best cities (resources, Wonders, etc.) for Basium, so he does get somewhat of a starting handicap. But, then, as I said his AI is terrible when it comes to being your ally. Also, he will sometimes go out and conquer cities out in No Man's Land, or send Settler's to settle there. This really fractures the cohesion of the 'alliance' as his small cities squeezed into spots where they cannot grow are scattered all over the map. I realize you do have a bit of control here, but even with micromanaging, it his hard to counteract his bad AI as your ally.

I would agree that Basium usually gets stuck in a bad position more often than not. Once a neighboring empire created the mercurian gate in a border city which was being assaulted by my culture. Once the Mercurians took over, they had no chance. The city revolted to me, leaving Basium with only a tiny city he created with the free sttler.

You know, one thing that's always bothered me about Basium is that anyone can summon him for any reason. He can even be a tool of evil. I had one game where Faeryl founded the Ashen Veil AND summoned Basium in one of her border cities.

Thus, every good city she destroyed made her vassal stronger, and her vassal was blocking the entrance to her largest cities, including the Ashen Veil holy city . . . .

You know, one thing that's always bothered me about Basium is that anyone can summon him for any reason. He can even be a tool of evil. I had one game where Faeryl founded the Ashen Veil AND summoned Basium in one of her border cities.

Thus, every good city she destroyed made her vassal stronger, and her vassal was blocking the entrance to her largest cities, including the Ashen Veil holy city . . . .

I agree; I'd kind of like the Mercurian Gate to be restricted to being built only by Good civs, maybe even only Order civs (much as only Veil civs can summon Hyborem).

Well, the Mecurian's description say they would just as willingly fight beside the cruel Calabim as the Lawful Bannor, as long as their common foe is the Veil. But if a Veil civ can summon Basium, it's ethier a bug or should be removed in anycase. Or he should declare war on his ally, which might cause the game the crash.

Also, part of the reason the Infernals are so strong is their Hell Terrain defensive bonus. Angels should get some kind of similar bonus/be able to easily reverse Hell terrain.

The real difference is that Angels are mere str 5 units, which means pretty crappy ones, while Infernals can build pretty much any sort of unit other civs can, and can upgrade whenever they wish. Base Angels suck, and need really a lot of experience to be upgraded, but since they are poor units they're unlikely to get that experience.

Onedreamer, that's why you build altar-boosted Disciples en masse then send them on suicide missions, and run things like Apprenticeship, Theocracy, and Conquest. It's quite easy if you're planning to switch to Basium yourself to set up the city as a Great Prophet farm, and you can get several within the first handful of turns.

If Faeryl Viconia can summon Basium that could be a bug, I'm pretty sure that evil civs should not be able to summon him.

And restricting him to order or to good is pointless, mechanic wise because this means he would be rare to see as few civs actually go order especially in smaller games.

It would also be bad lore wise, as it has been stated that Basium cares not who he helps him or who he helps aslong as he gets to kill the Veil, meaning he would be as happy following the order as he would the council of esus, as long as his enemy is the Veil...

I summoned Basium for the first time last night and it screwed up what had been a pretty good game.

I knew he would take the city with the Mercurian gate, which was fine. I built it on the fringe of my empire, but as soon as he was summoned:

a) My tech requirements for all new techs doubled as he was now a team member, which slowed my advances to a crawl (since he was contributing nothing).

b) He dragged me into war with every Veil civ immediately.

c) His culture was gimped because the land he was on was still considered that of my civ.

Suggestions:
There needs to be a better way for Basium to gain a foothold on the map. Yes, in the current implementation he gets a city, but unless the summoning civ is next to one he is going to war with or will gift him additional cities there is little opportunity for expansion.

It might be nice if Basium instead of taking the summoner's city if he took a city from one of the Ashen Veil civs (maybe the smallest city of the smallest Veil Civ? or a Veil city without a Temple in it?) and got an immediate culture boost (like to level 3 or 4), some defensive structures and religious buildings to put a nice footprint on the map.

Basium also needs some firepower to defend against the civs he is going to be at war with immediately. I would suggest some high defense units to help him hold out while the evil hordes close in and try to knock him out. Angels are not a terribly strong offensive unit for the mid-to-late game when he is summoned but if he can survive a bit (with temples in place) he should be able to start churning out some quality units.

It might be nice if Basium instead of taking the summoner's city if he took a city from one of the Ashen Veil civs (maybe the smallest city of the smallest Veil Civ? or a Veil city without a Temple in it?) and got an immediate culture boost (like to level 3 or 4), some defensive structures and religious buildings to put a nice footprint on the map.



I really think this is a bad idea, taking him from in the middle of his allies empire to the middle of an enemy empire, no matter how good defence he is given that would be a bad idea...

I nmy last game Basium was quite powerful. He was summoned by Arendel Phaedra and got quite good city. Arendel together with him were first in score and had really big army. And when i was fighting them it was really unpleasant. Each killed stack of elves meant stack of angels. Add Repenant angels and angels of death and i can be really painful .Though, I won the war.:)

Onedreamer, that's why you build altar-boosted Disciples en masse then send them on suicide missions, and run things like Apprenticeship, Theocracy, and Conquest. It's quite easy if you're planning to switch to Basium yourself to set up the city as a Great Prophet farm, and you can get several within the first handful of turns.

I didn't speak of ME. In the hands of the player, any civ can win. But the title is: BASIUM (not me, or you) sucks!.

I was under the impression that Veil civs couldn't build the gate. A vassal of mine wouldn't trade me the tech required for the gate until I forced them to convert to veil. The AI usually won't trade away techs for wonders that they are building so I assumed they were building the gate but then they had to quit when they joined the veil.