To make the game both historically accurate and instructive, it should be possible to purchase slaves in Europe or the West Indies.

Civ has always been an educational game, hence, rather than avoiding the subject altogether, it would be educational to include this mechanism within the game. In this manner we could experience the stark reality of this issue, and perhaps take time to consider similar occurrences in our current modern times.

I am not a modder, but I'd like to already request someone to create the "Slavery and Civil War" mod. It would entail simply creating a single unit called the slave, which would be obtained in similar fashion to how the player purchases horses, muskets or even free colonists.

Perhaps even a "wormhole" to a small coastline of part of northwestern Africa could be included, where a colony could directly sail a ship and purchase, from other African tribes (at a discounted price), a large number of slaves to then be shipped back across the ocean to the new world. Perhaps there should also be the option to send over dragoons who be enabled to attack African settlements (in similar fashion to how one could invade Native American settlements in order to encourage "converts") and obtain slaves directly (at no charge, but with the possibility of losing soldiers). Now, to truly simulate the historical accuracy of slavery, there would need to be a random modifier that would determine a certain % of slaves to die (between 25 and 75 %) in the ships en-route to the new world. This would simulate the terrible shipping conditions slaves were subjected to.

In addition, to fully flesh out this scenario, it should be enabled that when one of the colonizers goes about conquering Native American settlements, that they can then obtain Native slaves that would be used in identical fashion to the African slaves. This was an issue in the Southern American colonies and should be simulated here.

As to the usage of slaves within a colony, in order to make slaves desirable for use within a colony, slaves would not count towards to the population, nor toward the "rebel sentiment" meter, nor draw food requirements. Slave units would only permitted to work in outdoor environments (not within buildings). Additionally, slave units would be permitted to "double-up" with another regular colonist on a square (think double usage of a tile in civ). Hence, through the usage of slavery, a colony would gain a dramatic production bonus.

The slave unit would be available for use only within a certain geographical boundary. For example, in a random map game, slaves might only be used within colonies to the west (or north, south, east; randomly rotating the direction of the demarcation line for each map) of a certain line.

The catch to the usage of slavery, would be that immediately following the conclusion of the normal victory method (that is, by defeating the mother country), that your civ would be thrown into a civil war, with all of the colonies on the "wrong" side of the demarcation line joining the side of the slavery faction, and the other colonies, obviously, joining the anti-slavery faction. In this war, the other European and Native civs would be permitted to take sides.

Now, in order to prevent the glorification of slavery, the human player would be required to continue play as the anti-slavery faction; forced to either put-down the revolt, or give in and grant the succeeding colonies their independence.

Note: even though I suggest and request this mod, personally, I am adamantly opposed to slavery and indentured servanthood.

I have written articles concerning America's continued use of disguised and virtual "banana republics" in our modern age. Which, incidentally, comprises the roots of the current "banananization" of Iraq.

I simply believe that such a mod is instructive for understanding the period of the time, and can stimulate reflective thought and debate concerning the actual historical mechanism and morality.

It should at least, even in a medium as passive as a game, serve as a rather terrifying object lesson of our morally depraved our world history has been.

I'll say it first: just too much for a game. This is not the way to educate people about the history or cruelty of slavery.

I'll say it first: just too much for a game. This is not the way to educate people about the history or cruelty of slavery.How would you go about it then?

Anyway he is only asking for a Mod, so if one such as he request is ever made, all you have to do avoid getting this level of historical realism in your game is to ... not download and use it yourself. :p

As to the usage of slaves within a colony, in order to make slaves desirable for use within a colony, slaves would not count towards to the population, nor toward the "rebel sentiment" meter, nor draw food requirements. Slave units would only permitted to work in outdoor environments (not within buildings). Additionally, slave units would be permitted to "double-up" with another regular colonist on a square (think double usage of a tile in civ). Hence, through the usage of slavery, a colony would gain a dramatic production bonus.
...

The catch to the usage of slavery, would be that immediately following the conclusion of the normal victory method (that is, by defeating the mother country), that your civ would be thrown into a civil war, with all of the colonies on the "wrong" side of the demarcation line joining the side of the slavery faction, and the other colonies, obviously, joining the anti-slavery faction. In this war, the other European and Native civs would be permitted to take sides.

Now, in order to prevent the glorification of slavery, the human player would be required to continue play as the anti-slavery faction; forced to either put-down the revolt, or give in and grant the succeeding colonies their independence.Since you can choose Slavery as part the custom made Constitution you make for your colony when it declares Indepence, then I don't see how the above method you subscribe would make much sense - except of course, if you are using Slaves in your colony and do NOT choose to implement Slavery in your Constitution.

Instead (or in addition at least) any colony containing Slave labor should have a chance of being hit by a slave revolt with chance being modified by % of population in city being slaves. City would be without production until put down by Military and if going unchecked would have an increasing chance to turn independent(hostile barbarian style city) each turn in Revolt.


Also, slaves consuming no food and the double up idea is just too much of a benefit. Surely letting slaves require just 1 food instead of 2 and letting them otherwise function as regular Colonists (but only outdoors and without any boost from/toward/against Rebel sentiment) would be more than enough of a bonus.

How would you go about it then?

Anyway he is only asking for a Mod, so if one such as he request is ever made, all you have to do avoid getting this level of historical realism in your game is to ... not download and use it yourself. :p

It wouldn't be in Civilization or any game so it's irrelevant...imagine if the Civ4 1939 scenario had a slave feature like this...

It wouldn't be in Civilization or any game so it's irrelevant...imagine if the Civ4 1939 scenario had a slave feature like this...So you are against using games as a platform for education and enlightenment then?

What is there to imagine? The Slavery civic is still active and you can kill large portions of your population to hurry projects - and it is present by default from cIV vanilla through to BTS and even all the way up to Colonization also it would appear.

Anyway, you didn't really answer my question - and you also completely missed the point about it being a Mod request.

I did answer your question, the answer was I would not go about it in any way at all within the game...at least not to the extent suggested here. The slavery function in Civilization is nothing compared to the implication of an advanced slavery system in Colonization, mod or not. In Civ the slavery tech is like ancient Egyptian slaves of the pharaoh building the pyramids, at least it's your own people. Of course I don't have to download the mod, I just think it's in bad taste. I think everyone understands quite easily that slavery is wrong, they don't need a video game to enlighten them. Not to be sharp about it, I just can't help but see it this way ;)

@Dvalin:
Once you start being selective about the truth, withhold evidence or cushon the realities of the world for even then most noble of reasons/causes - you are already playing the devils advocate and are effectively helping to muddle the picture/make things worse.

People only ever truely understands the implication of anything once they to some degree have experienced it themselves. Experiencing it in a game is a poor substitute for the purpose of truely understanding, but it does gives a minor 'hands on' experience that you wont ever get watching documentaries, reading books or attending seminaries about it - and for the purpose of understanding implications it beats having no experience at all.

Much easier would be just have available "slave"-unit that you could get cheap from the Old World and would get small bonus to outside work but otherwise would be completely useless. Maybe you could get them as "real" colonists once independency becomes reality and you don't choose slavery.

I just think it's in bad taste"
No, I think it's great taste.

Telling the history as it is and not just as fashionable story but also the part of the victims are included.

That's real history not some cartoonish version of it.

And I agree with CyberChrist on this all the way.

More people know the better.

Colonization is a cartoonish way to go about this 'noble' thing you think you would be doing...if we go by your logic I guess representing anything historical in a game it's appropriate. The first mistake here is the suggestion that players should be able sail to Africa specifically to buy slaves, that sounds pretty racist to me...why would you put that in a game? Teaching history is a poor, poor excuse. Like I said, should the 1939 scenario have a custom improvement: slave-labour camp? Every turn it loses 25% of it's strength and has to be replenished from working the slaves to death...

I am sorry, unless you are denying the fact that slavery existed why would you hide it ? Why would it be racist to depict Early Modern Americas as they really were ? I don't get some of those so-called ''good thinking'' forumites who would rather HIDE or conceal such a fact - and economical linchpin as slavery was to the development of the English colonies south of Pensylvania and Delaware.

These arguments are as stupid as people who would rather deny the existence of the Holocaust saying that depicting it would be racist ! Errr... you can't and shouldn't censor History.

I'm not sure how you implement slavery in a game where you already have complete control of the labor force. Sure, you could make them better laborers but I really doubt that slaves were much more productive than free laborers on a man for man basis.

I'm not sure how you make it an interesting choice beyond the moral, and it's already been said that you can make this choice in the Constitution. Perhaps slavery would give free convicts in the dock but it would lower your score at the end of the game like razing Indian villages.

Colonization is a cartoonish way to go about this 'noble' thing you think you would be doing...if we go by your logic I guess representing anything historical in a game it's appropriate. You really need to read peoples posts more carefully and stop a min to think about the intended meaning.

You (and those like you) are the ones I am talking about that are crusading for a 'noble' cause, that you apparently feel justify clouding the truth about history and seek to keep as many as possible from knowing and understanding more about those truths.

It's completely the opposite my friend...people learn about slavery in school, a documentary, on the internet, or sometimes in movies. This is different from a game where the objective is to win and have fun, and anyone who knows anything about slavery knows it's wrong but that it's beneficial to the perpetrator. Anyone who needs to learn about slavery through a video game shouldn't have had their head on the desk so much in school. This notion that not including an explicit slavery system in a video game like Colonization or in a mod is somehow "clouding" or "denying" the history of slavery is a total joke. Someone foolishly mentioned the Holocaust, which is not in Civilization, or any commercial game AFAIK. Does this mean all these evil game companies are denying it happened? Get a grip!

I did answer your question, the answer was I would not go about it in any way at all within the game...at least not to the extent suggested here. The slavery function in Civilization is nothing compared to the implication of an advanced slavery system in Colonization, mod or not. In Civ the slavery tech is like ancient Egyptian slaves of the pharaoh building the pyramids, at least it's your own people. Of course I don't have to download the mod, I just think it's in bad taste. I think everyone understands quite easily that slavery is wrong, they don't need a video game to enlighten them. Not to be sharp about it, I just can't help but see it this way ;)

Well said.

Also, no one is hiding history, if you want to learn about slavery then take a class on American history. Certain things should not be replicated to full extent for entertainment value within a videogame, that's just horrible taste.

Would you want a WW II game in which you could run inhumane "experiments"? Certain parts of history are very unfortunate and should not be in a game to be played as anything remotely fun.

I hope no one here would want to see those type of things replicated. To say that we're trying to keep people from knowing the truth is so laughable, I'm sure more people will take History in HS than will ever play Civs.

It's completely the opposite my friend...people learn about slavery in school, a documentary, on the internet, or sometimes in movies. This is different from a game where the objective is to win and have fun, and anyone who knows anything about slavery knows it's wrong but that it's beneficial to the perpetrator. Anyone who needs to learn about slavery through a video game shouldn't have had their head on the desk so much in school. This notion that not including an explicit slavery system in a video game like Colonization or in a mod is somehow "clouding" or "denying" the history of slavery is a total joke. Someone foolishly mentioned the Holocaust, which is not in Civilization, or any commercial game AFAIK. Does this mean all these evil game companies are denying it happened? Get a grip!

Learning in a sterile classroom envrionment often lacks emphasis. It's more effective to provide a visceral experience that intersects with a child's play and will provide excellent discussion possibilities. I would prefer my child playing a "slavery" edition of Civ rather than playing GTA or even Halo. A scenario like I'm suggesting hints at consequences for giving in to immoral economics. A substantial quick fix like slavery might, in the long run, prove to be too expensive (both morally and economically) to make it worth while. I would prefer my child to be confronted with these types of situations and decisions, rather than simply being confronted with the decision of which gun to shoot the nasty little alien with: should I use the laser, the machine gun, or the rocket launcher?

I want my child to think, to consider, to cogitate upon the great moral issues of history. A classroom doesn't put them into that position; it simply disseminates information. A game like Civ can force them to actually confront the situation.

Learning in a sterile classroom envrionment often lacks emphasis. It's more effective to provide a visceral experience that intersects with a child's play and will provide excellent discussion possibilities. I would prefer my child playing a "slavery" edition of Civ rather than playing GTA or even Halo. A scenario like I'm suggesting hints at consequences for giving in to immoral economics. A substantial quick fix like slavery might, in the long run, prove to be too expensive (both morally and economically) to make it worth while. I would prefer my child to be confronted with these types of situations and decisions, rather than simply being confronted with the decision of which gun to shoot the nasty little alien with: should I use the laser, the machine gun, or the rocket launcher?

I want my child to think, to consider, to cogitate upon the great moral issues of history. A classroom doesn't put them into that position; it simply disseminates information. A game like Civ can force them to actually confront the situation.

That's you and your child...hey that's fine. However, that's still a silly argument, as hard as you try to word it elaborately. You really think a child is going to play a colorful video game like Colonization and extract some kind of moral lesson from it, especially from one minor aspect? That is fantasy and you should know better. Unless you are sitting there explaining all these things they do not understand without that dissemination you mentioned, they aren't going to see anything but one facet of the game. You mentioned shooter games, I'm sure you know about the desensitization to violence that can come with playing too much. That is because it's just a video game where the object is to try to win and have fun doing it. Put slavery into a game and the same effect applies, the virtual slaves become meaningless symbols in the game world used as a means to an end...like that laser gun. The player rarely if ever makes the connection between a soldier dying in a virtual world and one in the real, same with virtual slaves. No offense, but from a rational standpoint I find it hard to take this argument seriously...

@Dvalin:
Comparing the violence in FPS games with the Slavery function in cIV is pretty misleading, since the ONLY way to play and win a FPS is to engage in violence (and you are applauded for doing so), but the in cIV there are many other paths to choose from (and there are negative consequences to engaging in slavery - and other immoral practices).

And a hands-on-experience STILL gives a dimension of insight about a subject that you CANNOT gain from reading a book, attending a class or watching a film, but it CAN be gained to some degree from playing a game.

It is all about getting the thought "Hey now, why did this just happen? Why are these subjects of mine suddenly so unhappy?" (or something to that effect) and starting to think about it or even better yet - talk about it. People often just store information without further thought when experienced from more passive sources, but if it is something happening in response to something you have done then it does involve active thinking.

Also, you don't sound like some that has any children of your own. You can bet that if a child experience something in a game they don't understand, that surprises or annoy them they will talk to someone about it - a good opportunity to feed their actively interested brain with some more information about slavery (or whatever subject it is about).

Games are FAR better at getting people interested and engaged in subjects they wouldn't otherwise even consider bothering with (and for many people history is one such subject). Of course noone is suggesting to substitute books, classrooms or films with games, but (thoughtfully created) games can give a dimension of understanding that you just can't get from the more conventional types of learning.

I don't know how this got to the subject of young children in the first place as imo Civ/Col are teen-adult level games. Anywho it doesn't matter if I have kids, do you? I've been around kids in my family and of my friends often, but that's irrelevant. This is one big distortion you are presenting, it sounds to me like you don't know much about the minds of children. The unlikely possibility of parents assisting in the learning process aside, children don't make the same interpretations as we do given their lack of perspective. Unless you make this theoretical slavery feature barely noticeable at all or you make the negative effects of the choice blatantly obvious, it's not going to click.

Considering slavery was profitable and effective in its day, it is unrealistic to over nerf it and pointless just to make a point or 'teach' history. While you might learn something about wilderness survival in The Oregon Trail or something about urban planning in SimCity, hands on slavery is a pretty stupid way to learn about it. This game is complex by most standards, to be played by a majority of older teens and adults. The entire argument that somehow making slavery a prominent feature in the game is educational or beneficial to children or anyone is simply ludicrous. The bottom line is it is an excuse, a justification. A much better excuse would be simply that it was a crucial aspect of the colonization era and would add a new dynamic to the game. I still disagree with any level of implementation suggested here, but let's be honest about this.

@Dvalin:
Your most recent post said more about you than about the subject and it convinced me that continuing this 'debate' would be pointless.

Good luck with the crusade and don't forget NOT to download the mod once it is released. :mischief:

@Dvalin:
Your most recent post said more about you than about the subject and it convinced me that continuing this 'debate' would be pointless.

Good luck with the crusade and don't forget NOT to download the mod once it is released. :mischief:

That's pretty vague, what does it say about me? That I am an idiot and you know what you're talking about? Come on...get over yourself. Obviously this is just a weak cover story for the fact that you can no longer rationally defend your support for this ridiculous idea. If this is such a great idea with educational benefits, there would be more people clamoring for it and backing you up on it. :rolleyes:

It's completely the opposite my friend...people learn about slavery in school, a documentary, on the internet, or sometimes in movies. This is different from a game where the objective is to win and have fun, and anyone who knows anything about slavery knows it's wrong but that it's beneficial to the perpetrator. Anyone who needs to learn about slavery through a video game shouldn't have had their head on the desk so much in school. This notion that not including an explicit slavery system in a video game like Colonization or in a mod is somehow "clouding" or "denying" the history of slavery is a total joke. Someone foolishly mentioned the Holocaust, which is not in Civilization, or any commercial game AFAIK. Does this mean all these evil game companies are denying it happened? Get a grip!
Partly yes they are denying it.

And just for the sake of those as yourself who want some kind of cartoonish version of the game and deny the possibility of implenting something like slavery to the mix as potential teaching tool I suggest you take a look civilization 3 mod that was made for educational purposes in Canada and then come back with the same COMPLETELY ridiculous claim.

http://www.historicanada.com/ :king:

If there's one place above school, documentary, movie or even a book it's game where person can learn through being active part of the process of such event that has these elements in it. Why do you think there's extra information in the game about their history?

Why do you think I got interested about New World history? One of the reasons was Colonization when it came as I was in my teens. I wanted to learn more and I was completely stunned that it didn't had real slaves in it. But the whole series have from those days "matured" and it's time to also update the notion of Slavery in Colonization. I do understand that the game company doesn't want to do that because of some moralists BUT I think it's ESSENTIAL that somebody then implents it as feature by mod.

If the mod works well I will be the first download it and I can tell you that it's how historical games should be. Let's add two versions, the DISNEY one which you can cheriss and the REAL version which others will have.

And your comparison to Holocaust is bad because we can see it doesn't effect necessary the game dynamics neither to the historical elements, even though mod that would concentrate into social dynamics and not just to warfare should have notion of Holocaust present.

BUT slaves did have effect to the economy of these colonies and helped them to grow. They are ESSENTIAL to the whole idea of colonization. If you don't understand what african slaves offered compared to native or white workers you don't have clue about history and it's travesty that you are here to lecture others how to learn history when you haven't learned yourself the bit about slaves.

So maybe it would help even you to learn some history about slaves if they would implented in the game.

People just don't want to know how their own country was developed on to the ashes of other civilizations and who had to suffer and how much just so you could be writing this stuff right here.

Jezuz.

But CyberChrist is right this discussion is useless and over.

@Dvalin:
Comparing the violence in FPS games with the Slavery function in cIV is pretty misleading, since the ONLY way to play and win a FPS is to engage in violence (and you are applauded for doing so), but the in cIV there are many other paths to choose from (and there are negative consequences to engaging in slavery - and other immoral practices).

And a hands-on-experience STILL gives a dimension of insight about a subject that you CANNOT gain from reading a book, attending a class or watching a film, but it CAN be gained to some degree from playing a game.

It is all about getting the thought "Hey now, why did this just happen? Why are these subjects of mine suddenly so unhappy?" (or something to that effect) and starting to think about it or even better yet - talk about it. People often just store information without further thought when experienced from more passive sources, but if it is something happening in response to something you have done then it does involve active thinking.


Talk about it with whom? Some random guys on the internet? I doubt you're going to get a heart fealt convo on the issue going that route.

@DV, seems you possess a rather pessimistic view of the intelligence and ability to comprehend by children. I guess, when I was a child, I was simply smarter than other children.

And yes, in this context, I did include teenagers in my definition of children, who would probably benefit the most from this sort of mod (as it's actually in junior high/middleschool that American children start learning about these sorts of social issues).

My son is now a teenager, I'm certain that I could have a more interesting discussion with him regarding Civ than I've had with him regarding Halo.

Talk about it with whom? Some random guys on the internet? I doubt you're going to get a heart fealt convo on the issue going that route.You are no parent either are you? If you are despite of what you just wrote then perhaps you need to spend more time with your children and engage a bit more in what they do - and perhaps even enjoy playing some games with them yourself?

If children don't come to their parents/friends/close ones and want to talk when have something on their mind and/or experiences to share then they already got bigger problems than the imagined one of being faced with the concept of Slavery in a game.

That Historic Canada game is obviously meant to teach history, with voice overs explaining what you see in the 'game'. Civilization, where you can learn some bits of history along the way with a little perspective and background, is not like that. Just the same as if there was a game 'Historic World War II' that did the same thing, it's not going to have the same effect as say playing Company of Heroes which would be the equivalent relationship between 'Historic Canada' and Civilization: Colonization. So there are 1-2 exceptions here on these boards of people who claim they were a prodigy and playing games specifically enlightened them about slavery. This is irrelevant in comparison to the masses, the majority of the population. A grand total of 4 people have voiced support for this mod, amazing!

@C~G: I learned a lot about slavery, its beginnings, the practice, and its after effects. It's a travesty for you to tell others what they know about history when you're only making assumptions. I am simply standing up for the only rational conclusion I can make in regards to a mod centered on slavery and the civil war.

Silly 'feel good' arguments coming from folks like CyberChrist don't hold water in the real world. You don't make a game or modification assuming families are going to have an in depth talk about it as some bizarre justification for its insensitive content.

You don't make a game or modification assuming families are going to have an in depth talk about it as some bizarre justification for its insensitive content.Who are you to say why people do or don't / should or shouldn't make games or mods about/containing whatever? Seems to me you are the one making an awfull lot of assumptions here.

That Historic Canada game is obviously meant to teach history, with voice overs explaining what you see in the 'game'. Civilization, where you can learn some bits of history along the way with a little perspective and background, is not like that. Just the same as if there was a game 'Historic World War II' that did the same thing, it's not going to have the same effect as say playing Company of Heroes which would be the equivalent relationship between 'Historic Canada' and Civilization: Colonization.And why there couldn't be such mod that would try to achieve the same without voice overs?

What's the reason? Or is it just because you think mod cannot be as magnificent as whole game. Maybe if Firaxis would had implented such things into the game but because of guys like you, they never will.

There are no other such reasons unless it's inside your head.

So yes. You lose.

So there are 1-2 exceptions here on these boards of people who claim they were a prodigy and playing games specifically enlightened them about slavery. This is irrelevant in comparison to the masses, the majority of the population. A grand total of 4 people have voiced support for this mod, amazing!So what?

I suggest you consider the fact how many members are browsing this part of the forum right now and I can tell you that the whole Colonization mod in creation forum I posted already couple years back got same kind of support and now they are makin game out of it!

So yes. You lose.

@C~G: I learned a lot about slavery, its beginnings, the practice, and its after effects. It's a travesty for you to tell others what they know about history when you're only making assumptions. I am simply standing up for the only rational conclusion I can make in regards to a mod centered on slavery and the civil war.Well, apparently you know crap.

Slavery is essential element to any game that tries to describe the process of colonization. Whether it's used as teaching tool or otherwise, is non issue almost but at the same time, why not to use it as such when it's possible.

So yes. You lose.

@Silly 'feel good' arguments coming from folks like CyberChrist don't hold water in the real world. You don't make a game or modification assuming families are going to have an in depth talk about it as some bizarre justification for its insensitive content.I'm sorry but I happen to favour this "feel good" argument in favor of your "feel bad" argument.

You make mod whenever and about whatever you want and you have nothing to say or do that would change it to anything else.

So yes. You lose.

I think it'd be interesting to expand colonization to include Africa and Asia. Where you could take the Rum manufactured in New France and sail it to China and trade it for opium. A mod that would permit the pacification of the indigenous civ by drugging them.

I think few ppl in the west are even aware of how evil, or the extent, British economic policies were to the Chinese and Indian civilizations.

It might be interesting to create an Imperialism mod (based upon the economic and colonial structure of Colonization), where one would play as one of the European powers; having access to the entire 3rd world, creating colonies and trade outposts and trade routes between different parts of the world. The game would consist of attempting to create either the most diverse line of trade goods or of monopolizing a single type of trade. To see who could create the most "banana republics."

Tools available to the player would be slavery, pacification through either conquering, threatening or drugging, the ability to set up regional governors that would oversee indigenous settlements where the only Europeans present would be occupying troops (I suppose a veiled slavery).

Over the course of the game, indigenous elements could comprise rebellions, eventually colonies could declare independence, or Gandhi might appear and initiate a nationwide strike. Ultimately, the human player would eventually lose direct control over all of its overseas interests, but would have the fun of impacting world history and seeing how much wealth could be amassed before the bottom fell out.

To make the game even more interesting, when the human player agreed to grant independence to a region, the human player would possess the ability to segment the land area into as many as countries as they saw fit, drawing the new boundaries however they saw fit. For example, the power to create nonsensical boundaries that included multiple ethnicities that didn't like each other and who would naturally fight with each other for control of their "new country." The imperial power would still retain the right to trade muskets and canon to both sides in exchange for the near entirety of that regions natural resources.

Hence, in this scenario, England could preempt the Revolutionary War by choosing whether to carve America up into a large number of small, manageable countries, or into a single country and instigating war between the slave and non-slave factions (supplying both sides in a manner that would ensure continual unending warfare). In both scenarios, England could still control the resources of that area. In the former option by instituting exclusive trade rights with that newly formed tiny-nation, and in the latter by trading guns for the entirety of those feuding nations resources.

I think this would be educational. Perhaps brutal, but educational nonetheless. Through this gaming medium, even the common ignorant peasant would learn the reality of world trade and the control mechanisms that continue in practice today.

(Q: How do you think Iraq started? A: in the early part of last century, England created the nonsensical boundaries of Iraq that included multiple ethnicities and religious factions. Playing upon the natural fighting that immediately occurred, England supplied one of the factions with arms in exchange for the bulk of Iraq's resources. Eventually England lost control of the situation, and later America decided to intervene and attempt to replace England's hegemony in the region. Now America controls the entire oil industry of that nation. Because of England's divide-and-conquer-border-drawing-strategy America cannot withdraw its troops without creating a massive civil war. America will solve the problem by placing one of the factions in power in exchange for a domination of the oil resource. Simply another example of an age-old tactic of world domination.)

Let's make it happen!

That Historic Canada game is obviously meant to teach history, with voice overs explaining what you see in the 'game'. Civilization, where you can learn some bits of history along the way with a little perspective and background...

I could do some voice-overs explaining the history of what would be seen in this mod; with some bits of history, perspective and background...I also possess a very pleasant radio voice.

I could do some voice-overs explaining the history of what would be seen in this mod; with some bits of history, perspective and background...I also possess a very pleasant radio voice.

Okay wonderful, but do you see the problem with the argument 'it's educational for children'? At least you offer some broader ideas than just slavery. Although you mentioned 'drugging' indigenous people...don't you realize this is a game, a teen-adult game? :confused:

@C~G: That was a sad response, but since you tried so hard I guess you win :rolleyes:

some lack of perspective here, colonization is about a period in american history, where slavery was very much present, it was evil ofc, but it was life, if we deny parts of history, just because it was wrong, then you need to remove all indians, because what happened to them is so much evil as well. War is evil so we also have to remove that, pirate ships needs to be removed, they represent evil as well.

Now they are remaking an old game, i am looking forward too it, but it include what happened in history, slavery was very much part of all European nations tactics in america as was warfare along with the bad treatment of the Indians.

So coming with suggestions for the game seems like a fine idea and just make it so there is options, so if some of you dislike the slavery bit, you can turn it off and those who want it to be more historical can turn it on.

There is no reason to Argue alot about it, just make it an Option :)

@C~G: That was a sad response, but since you tried so hard I guess you win :rolleyes:Oh, yes. Indeed.

All I need is to quote yourself:
Come on...get over yourself. Obviously this is just a weak cover story for the fact that you can no longer rationally defend your support for this ridiculous idea.

All you can offer as rational argument is "sad response" and rolleyes.

And yes, my argument wins and your loses. I wiped your every point from the map but mostly because yours was pathetic from the start. ;)

Good luck with your next one, maybe it's bit stronger. :mischief:

But I doubt it since you cannot defend it with any integrity just with some lame off the wall posts.

No off you go to complain about some other mod idea that you don't like. :cool:

Oh, yes. Indeed.

All I need is to quote yourself:


All you can offer as rational argument is "sad response" and rolleyes.

And yes, my argument wins and your loses. I wiped your every point from the map but mostly because yours was pathetic from the start. ;)

Good luck with your next one, maybe it's bit stronger. :mischief:

But I doubt it since you cannot defend it with any integrity just with some lame off the wall posts.

No off you go to complain about some other mod idea that you don't like. :cool:

All I need to do is to quote you since everything you try to pin on me applies perfectly to your last two posts...I've explained my position, backed it up with rational thought, defended it tooth and nail...there's nothing left.

All I need to do is to quote you since everything you try to pin on me applies perfectly to your last two posts...I've explained my position, backed it up with rational thought, defended it tooth and nail...there's nothing left.Still here?

What was your argument again? Oh yes, you didn't have anything to back it up when I questioned it. You seem to be now lost at real words so all you have is blah-blah-blahs. You didn't have anything offer to the table when I showed why your original point was invalid, nothing. All you had was your opinion and your worthless comments about other posters' posts, nothing rational there to be seen at the end.

I suggest you waste your time in some other place and leave the arguments for those who actually can clearly show how things are, rather than try to save your face with empty rhetorics and wishy washy things about your failed attempt of mastery in argument, let alone try to stir up something with homeboy-cheap shots.

Your points didn't hold any water and you were unable to defend your position. Next time try to learn to admit it, to call it quits or say uncle when you run out of steam.

So much easier for both you and rest of us. :king:

Still here?

What was your argument again? Oh yes, you didn't have anything to back it up when I questioned it. You seem to be now lost at real words so all you have is blah-blah-blahs. You didn't have anything offer to the table when I showed why your original point was invalid, nothing. All you had was your opinion and your worthless comments about other posters' posts, nothing rational there to be seen at the end.

I suggest you waste your time in some other place and leave the arguments for those who actually can clearly show how things are, rather than try to save your face with empty rhetorics and wishy washy things about your failed attempt of mastery in argument, let alone try to stir up something with homeboy-cheap shots.

Your points didn't hold any water and you were unable to defend your position. Next time try to learn to admit it, to call it quits or say uncle when you run out of steam.

So much easier for both you and rest of us. :king:

You stopped saying anything relevant to the subject of the thread a few posts ago, all you're doing now is desperately attacking my character...if anyone ran out of steam it was you. Obviously I hit a nerve and now it's all about 'winning' an argument with you, not anything worthwhile. I readily admit I am a former conservative gone liberal and I understand your point of view very well but I will reiterate again that Colonization walks a fine line and from my point of view the ideas offered for this 'slavery' mod borderline on insensitive and offensive. I've already explained why and argued my case, there's nothing left but your rants and insults. Buying a boatload of slaves from Africa to toil away on my cotton plantation in a video game is not something I want to do and I will speak out against insensitive fools like yourself who support it whenever I feel compelled.

You stopped saying anything relevant to the subject of the thread a few posts ago, all you're doing now is desperately attacking my character...if anyone ran out of steam it was you..:lol:

Way to go, man. Try to shake it off and turn it over. ;)

I did happen to destroy your every point those couple of posts back into which you offered nothing but sore grapes so why I would mind anything what you would say now about me being the one that cannot answer in correct fashion?
Obviously I hit a nerve and now it's all about 'winning' an argument with you, not anything worthwhile. I readily admit I am a former conservative gone liberal and I understand your point of view very well but I will reiterate again that Colonization walks a fine line and from my point of view the ideas offered for this 'slavery' mod borderline on insensitive and offensive.You hit a complete miss.

It was your opinion. It wasn't winning an argument for me before you started to bully around that your opinion was the best and most rational one.

You tried to make it look like it was the only rational argument out there and rest of us were bunch of wussies.

Not going to cut with me. You got exactly what you ordered. You tried to show your "feel bad" opinion was above everyone else's and example I tried to show how things could be seen otherwise why it would make perfect sense to use game as teaching tool and above all included slavery to the game. You didn't listen and went all bollocks.

Listen pal, if you would ask some people here they would probably name me as someone who would be first go against slavery BUT that doesn't mean I'm so stupid to decline the possibility of slavery appearing in computer game ESPECIALLY if it used to explain why it happened and what slavery really is. And heck, it's an option since it's a mod! What there is to complain about?

Just because of insensitive moralists like you people will never learn about real history because for you it's better to show just the nicy-nicy stuff to people and because you don't like it.

I would had gladly continued to debate the issue which is still rather interesting one but because of your attitude and after I had dismissed completely your points (even with evidence of game that is used as teaching tool) you had nothing but rolleyes to offer.

Buying a boatload of slaves from Africa to toil away on my cotton plantation in a video game is not something I want to do.Actually that was your whole argument.
"not something I want to do". That's it. And you call it rational?
Especially consider a mod that you don't EVER need to play yourself and still enjoy the game?

I've already explained why and argued my case, there's nothing left but your rants and insults..Who's insults?
Dvalin, meet Dvalin:
I will speak out against insensitive fools like yourself who support it whenever I feel compelled.

Adios.

:lol:

dhgasbhafasdf ;)

fhkdas sdhfgsd jdsgf

Ifhsdkgf opinion. sadhga hskdjfhs

dfhasgdgfjjssasfdf

fskhgfsf sjfhhg hgdh hgdjfsagfsa bollocks.

fhgasdjgfs dfsjfghsdgf ghdgf hdgjfsasgh dfhs hgdhfsfjsdgfhsd

skfhdksjhfjkhsd dhfsd kjhsah you don't like it.

sdfkhsa dfsa sdfgh rolleyes to offer.

fsdgfhgasdf sfsdf gfgd whole argument.
"not something I want to do". dfgjkdgdh dsjg kshdgj ajhwuhfd

fdsdhfjhs djfhs Dvalin, sdfhbssa

abfdhs.

You're making a useless circular argument about nothing that's going nowhere, you aren't doing yourself any favors fumbling to make me look stupid. It's sad that you've resorted to trying to force your hand, it's pathetic, this does make you a fool. You can't flood yours posts with these silly 'I win, you lose' statements and expect it to look rational or convincing. Obviously you don't have a clue what rational is...:crazyeye:

... you aren't doing yourself any favors fumbling to make me look stupid.
For once I have to agree completely with you - you manage to achieve this all on your own.

Perhaps it would not be the case, if you actually took some time to write a post with weighty, relevant and well founded arguments about why it would be bad for a game/mod to portray immoral aspects of history in an accurate manner (such as slavery) - instead of just resorting to subjective and unhelpful repsonses fueled by your moral indignation about slavery.

For once I have to agree completely with you - you manage to achieve this all on your own.

Perhaps it would not be the case, if you actually took some time to write a post with weighty, relevant and well founded arguments about why it would be bad for a game/mod to portray immoral aspects of history in an accurate manner (such as slavery) - instead of just resorting to subjective and unhelpful repsonses fueled by your moral indignation about slavery.

Guess I struck a nerve in you too huh? ;) Let's cover this one more time...unless you're just chiming in to attack me personally like the reckless C~G it should be fresh in your mind that I have already made numerous posts presenting, explaining, and defending my position. This is an issue of opinion and pissing for pages on end about the same two opinions isn't very effective. Now the only reason I have continued posting recently is because C~G (not you too:rolleyes:) has become so aggravated after the fact that he won't cut it out with all the venom and dubious comments. When the argument becomes more about someone's character or intelligence than the actual subject, that isn't objective or 'well founded' at all. I doubt you're even reading the over-the-top comments from C~G, don't you think you might be a little biased here?

Speaking of opinions, C~G created a terribly weak argument that my views expressed here are just opinions (of course they are) yet somehow everything he and others have been saying are fact or infallible truth...this is nonsense. It is a moral issue based on opinion, do you believe X or do you believe Y. It takes a particularly bitter, irritated person to grasp at straws the way C~G has in the attempt to 'debunk' me or my premise. Let me ask you "CyberChrist" what response would be helpful to you? Agreeing with you? Conceding that I think the slavery mod idea is okay? What exactly does it take for an argument to be "weighty" or "well founded" in your eyes, do you have to agree with it? Must you agree with it for it to be relevant?

If the only problem is you've forgotten what my well founded argument is, then I will gladly reiterate once again.

... Let me ask you "CyberChrist" what response would be helpful to you? Agreeing with you? Conceding that I think the slavery mod idea is okay? What exactly does it take for an argument to be "weighty" or "well founded" in your eyes, do you have to agree with it? Must you agree with it for it to be relevant?
No, but it certainly must be more than you have provided so far in this thread. This isn't really about pleasing me anyway - it is about bringing more than hot air and subjective opinions to a debate.

History as a grand concept to me is not one-dimensional and I believe the underlying problem here is the lack of understanding for different ways of viewing and treating history. There's a good chance that most who support the explicit slavery mod idea view history as 'it is what it is'. I would describe my point of view as 'history happens only once, it must be respected'. You can't change history, we all know this. I will preempt any baloney and say that suggesting that I want to alter history or suppress any aspect of it is folly. History is important to teach so we can learn from the mistakes and triumphs of the past. How to go about doing that is the point of argument here.

The 'it is what it is' or 'anything goes' thinkers tend to feel that any method, outlet, or medium for teaching history is fair and appropriate--even if it is slavery or worse. Of course context is important in determining how tasteful a presentation of history is, but from my pov there are certain areas in history that deserve more respect. When you open a history book or website the information is usually presented in a respectful, factual, and chronological manner, sometimes with side notes and photographs. You learn history in a realistic and academic way. When you play a video game, it's like watching (semi)fictional movie or playing a board game. Of course you can learn things including history through entertainment, at times that is an important function of it.

However, a video game is a toy, albeit a complex one often intended for adult audiences. You don't toy around with the painful legacies of slavery, the holocaust, or poisoning or 'drugging' native populations in a commercial product. Do so in a third party mod and on your head be it. This is the core of my argument. Fight the battle of Waterloo, conquer or liberate Europe in WWII, launch the first crusades, fine! Most of history is appropriate to be portrayed in games as there is no large swath of population to offend or disrespect so long as these subjects are treated with reasonable accuracy.

Go in public somewhere and poll some people with the question "Do you think it is appropriate to portray global slavery of the 16th-18th centuries in a computer game in a historical context?" I wouldn't expect the results to be slanted too far either way but the results would certainly be interesting. I'm sure you would have very different answers from those who have a more personal connection to the history of slavery because of their background and heritage.

Bottom line is it's just not a tasteful idea, the educational argument for including slavery explicitly within Colonization or subsequent modifications I will say again is a weak one. Kids shouldn't/don't need this or any other game to learn about slavery, they will learn about it long before hearing about let alone playing Colonization or this mod. Adults who don't already know about slavery by now are an enigma. The 'educational' you're trying to censor history! argument is a poor excuse for the idea of an explicit slavery mod. History should be respected not treated like a game! You can bake your cake and eat it too, nobody will stop you, but that doesn't stop me or anyone else from criticizing it, harshly.

Edit: The justifications argued for the mod here have been subjective, it's nothing less than bias to say that my opinion against it is any more subjective than the opinion for it. I have already thoroughly debunked the 'educational' argument for it.

Much better, but you are still making unsupported assumptions about what people think/feel and what can't be used as a tool for learning/education.

Live roleplaying is sometimes used in classes to teach 'hands-on' insight about various topics/concepts (slavery among other) and while it isn't a direct parallel then a similar 'hands-on' insight CAN be gained from including the same topics/concepts carefully in a game ... even if conveying the insight on the topic/concept isn't the main objective of the game.

But it is a fact that you are more receptive to learning when you are being entertained at the same time. The trick is of course to be sure that what is being learned is also what is being taught, but then that is true with all forms of education.

On topic then when(if) you include a concept like Slavery in a game like Civ/Col, a good way of doing it would be to give the player a personal experience of why a nation might want to engage in slavery (benefits), why a nation might NOT want to engage in slavery (disadvantages) - and ultimately why slavery is wrong and should be fought whenever encountered (morals).

Of course games can't and shouldn't replace other more traditional sources of learning history, but it can be a valuable addition and sometimes it can offer something the traditional tools can't (the total sum is greater than all it's parts).


I have already thoroughly debunked the 'educational' argument for it.
I fail to see when you did that - unless you think that saying "It is true because I say so" is enough to debunk anything.

However, if you have any links to studies that supports you in 'debunking' games as being useful as an educational tool - then I would very much like to see them.


Btw, you do realize that the entire Civilization series is ALL about rewriting history, right? So yes you CAN change history - even to the point where Slavery is never implemented in the country of your choice. ;)

You're making a useless circular argument about nothing that's going nowhere, you aren't doing yourself any favors fumbling to make me look stupid. It's sad that you've resorted to trying to force your hand, it's pathetic, this does make you a fool. You can't flood yours posts with these silly 'I win, you lose' statements and expect it to look rational or convincing. Obviously you don't have a clue what rational is...:crazyeye:And what exactly is YOUR point?

Because that has been been your attitude towards the whole subject from your first subject.

Except you didn't say "I win" you just said "Because I say so".

Guess I struck a nerve in you too huh? ;)
You didn't hit any nerve any where, you thought you struck gold and ended up losing your argument. And just because it wasn't well founded.

Rest of this is just tirade of you being obnoxios towards others and your greatness in your subject when you obviously cannot defend your position.
Let's cover this one more time...unless you're just chiming in to attack me personally like the reckless C~G it should be fresh in your mind that I have already made numerous posts presenting, explaining, and defending my position. BS. Couple of posts and then you couldn't counter ANYTHING thrown at you.
When the argument becomes more about someone's character or intelligence than the actual subject, that isn't objective or 'well founded' at all. I doubt you're even reading the over-the-top comments from C~G, don't you think you might be a little biased here?It became about character from the moment you started throwing things around and not trying to answer the posts and points directed towards you.
Speaking of opinions, C~G created a terribly weak argument that my views expressed here are just opinions (of course they are) yet somehow everything he and others have been saying are fact or infallible truth...this is nonsense.Did I say they are?

I demanded explanations for your opinions and your point about education was dismissed because of games that are based into such concepts and quite plenty of education today which is relys into games.
It is a moral issue based on opinion, do you believe X or do you believe Y.Moral issue?

Problem is that you cannot really decide whether it's right or wrong since both things have their good and bad sides.

I do understand why you wouldn't want to add it into the game and I and others (support is growing ;)) why it should be added especially with a MOD that is an OPTIONAL for a game.
It takes a particularly bitter, irritated person to grasp at straws the way C~G has in the attempt to 'debunk' me or my premise. And who's going all personal now?
They aren't called "straws", they are called "witty points". ;)
If Let me ask you "CyberChrist" what response would be helpful to you? Agreeing with you? Conceding that I think the slavery mod idea is okay? What exactly does it take for an argument to be "weighty" or "well founded" in your eyes, do you have to agree with it? Must you agree with it for it to be relevant?No need to agree with anyone as long as you can really throw real facts and figures and rationality towards your cause rather than the same old crap which has been already turned the tables.
If the only problem is you've forgotten what my well founded argument is, then I will gladly reiterate once again.Your argument has been tested and has failed miserable mostly because your own stubborness to possibly admit anything towards the other opinions and only leaving you to state how precious and great your own opinion is.

I answer to your latest post that might some actual meat in it laterz.

And BTW, I'm not wasteful or bitter chap so we can forget this episode and save our precious time and go debate the actual subject but you better be prepared for it and not go that preferred route that I criticized earlier entitling your opinions with your moral compass and dismissing others out of hand. Which you probably missed.

:clap:

I could spend the next few pages playing games with you and quoting every few lines with an exaggerated response...but what's the point I already explained my views and defended them repeatedly. You can't just state that my argument is invalidated or 'wrong' by getting creative with accusations. I debated moral-philosophical aspects of this explicit slavery idea rationally* replying on a multitude of points from all parties. You know it would be nice if you looked up words like tirade before using them. :p

It's really sad to see someone who thinks everything is neutral, there's 'good' and 'bad' things to everything. Do you think there were real good and bad things about slavery? It is all a matter of opinion, and let those who speak up be judged for it. You mix obnoxious "I'm right" comments in between a few ridiculous slights, why treat that as a legitimate debate? I draw the line somewhere. Humans are supposed to make moral judgments and philosophical decisions in their lives, to stand up for what they believe in.

Finally, I have clearly explained my argument on the subject, and very little of you or your mannerisms until the moment you were ranting and going :crazyeye::eek::mad: at me with these circular smear posts:scared:. I knew you went over that line and this would become over the top. I explained and defended my positions, and your questions have already been answered in my previous posts and more so with my last. Anyone looking into supporting or playing this mod should be able to make a rational decision. They don't need to get lost in a back and forth. I have probably caused more publicity for this silly idea than anyone posting in it. :gripe:

* look it up

Dvalin, you should have stopped when you had your chance.

From the beginning...

I'll say it first: just too much for a game. This is not the way to educate people about the history or cruelty of slavery.
For you it's too much, for others it's too little not to include slavery to the game.

It is one way to educate people about history and slavery, and it has been done before.
It wouldn't be in Civilization or any game so it's irrelevant...imagine if the Civ4 1939 scenario had a slave feature like this...Your point being what?

I did answer your question, the answer was I would not go about it in any way at all within the game...at least not to the extent suggested here. So you answered the question and everybody should just shut up now? :lol:
The slavery function in Civilization is nothing compared to the implication of an advanced slavery system in Colonization, mod or not. In Civ the slavery tech is like ancient Egyptian slaves of the pharaoh building the pyramids, at least it's your own people.So it's better to slave your own people than others?

What's the difference between let's say building pyramids with your own people than using jews as work force in slave camps?
Of course I don't have to download the mod, I just think it's in bad taste.EXACTLY.

For you whole thing is about "bad taste" and you are right, those who don't like the idea don't have to download the mod. Everybody ends up being happy.
I think everyone understands quite easily that slavery is wrong, they don't need a video game to enlighten them. Not to be sharp about it, I just can't help but see it this way ;)Well, you certainly aren't sharp about it, rather dull in fact. ;)

What exactly is your position?

That slavery is wrong A) it doesn't need to be told to anyone B) It needs to be told but game or mod is wrong platform to do it?

Make up your mind.

Colonization is a cartoonish way to go about this 'noble' thing you think you would be doing...Noble?

I think it's rather sensible thing add such feature as slavery since it did shape the whole process of the colonization of New World.

Or what next? Do you have also great moral dilemma of playing war games where people die.

if we go by your logic I guess representing anything historical in a game it's appropriate....It depends how historically accurate you want to be. And if you add it to the game it is approriate to add the teachings of those things to the game.
The first mistake here is the suggestion that players should be able sail to Africa specifically to buy slaves, that sounds pretty racist to me...Oh, and attacking native settlements and looting their villages isn't problematic. :mischief:

Strange that in your perfect world of video games there isn't ANY PROBLEM FOR YOU that spanish get extra advantages of attacking Native settlements.
If you are so big in MORALS Isn't that bit problematic for you?

Come on, the shallowness of your point really makes me laugh. :lol:
why would you put that in a game? Teaching history is a poor, poor excuse. Like I said, should the 1939 scenario have a custom improvement: slave-labour camp? Every turn it loses 25% of it's strength and has to be replenished from working the slaves to death...How about fire bombing of opponent city which destroys it citizens and work force?

Not a problem. :confused:

It's completely the opposite my friend...people learn about slavery in school, a documentary, on the internet, or sometimes in movies. This is different from a game where the objective is to win and have fun, and anyone who knows anything about slavery knows it's wrong but that it's beneficial to the perpetrator. Anyone who needs to learn about slavery through a video game shouldn't have had their head on the desk so much in school. This notion that not including an explicit slavery system in a video game like Colonization or in a mod is somehow "clouding" or "denying" the history of slavery is a total joke. Someone foolishly mentioned the Holocaust, which is not in Civilization, or any commercial game AFAIK. Does this mean all these evil game companies are denying it happened? Get a grip!Get a grip yourself.

You should REALLY look around that GAMES are used as teaching tools even to the smallest of children nowadays in many places even IN SCHOOL.

If Civilization or Colonization aren't such games then what are?
That's you and your child...hey that's fine. However, that's still a silly argument, as hard as you try to word it elaborately. You really think a child is going to play a colorful video game like Colonization and extract some kind of moral lesson from it, especially from one minor aspect? They can but apparently you wouldn't give such chance.

MINOR ASPECT? :eek:
That is fantasy and you should know better. Unless you are sitting there explaining all these things they do not understand without that dissemination you mentioned, they aren't going to see anything but one facet of the game. You mentioned shooter games, I'm sure you know about the desensitization to violence that can come with playing too much. That is because it's just a video game where the object is to try to win and have fun doing it. Put slavery into a game and the same effect applies, the virtual slaves become meaningless symbols in the game world used as a means to an end...like that laser gun. The player rarely if ever makes the connection between a soldier dying in a virtual world and one in the real, same with virtual slaves. No offense, but from a rational standpoint I find it hard to take this argument seriously...No it's your argument that is failing.

The point was that if the element of slavery is used as teaching tool rather than just one aspect of economics people might learn something out of it.

I don't know how this got to the subject of young children in the first place as imo Civ/Col are teen-adult level games. Anywho it doesn't matter if I have kids, do you? I've been around kids in my family and of my friends often, but that's irrelevant....It's rather irrelevant since you cannot make up your mind is Civ/Col about teens or kids and who can learn things.

I bet that Colonization is played by people of many ages and for them learning about slavery and REAL HISTORY is way to go.

Add it as dynamic playable element and use it as platform to tell the background of why and how it happened.
This is one big distortion you are presenting, it sounds to me like you don't know much about the minds of children. The unlikely possibility of parents assisting in the learning process aside, children don't make the same interpretations as we do given their lack of perspective. Unless you make this theoretical slavery feature barely noticeable at all or you make the negative effects of the choice blatantly obvious, it's not going to click.No idea what you are saying here.

In Civ it was ok as barely noticeable element but after you add it as more important element people (still you claim it's "minor" sometimes? :confused:) aren't prepared to notice why it could be wrong?

And whole point of the "click"-effect is at the same time to use it as teaching tool.
Considering slavery was profitable and effective in its day, it is unrealistic to over nerf it and pointless just to make a point or 'teach' history. While you might learn something about wilderness survival in The Oregon Trail or something about urban planning in SimCity, hands on slavery is a pretty stupid way to learn about it. WTF?

"Hands on slavery is pretty stupid way to learn about it"

That's your poor excuse for an argument? Are you serious?

Other games can teach things but this game not?
This game is complex by most standards, to be played by a majority of older teens and adults. The entire argument that somehow making slavery a prominent feature in the game is educational or beneficial to children or anyone is simply ludicrous. The bottom line is it is an excuse, a justification. A much better excuse would be simply that it was a crucial aspect of the colonization era and would add a new dynamic to the game. I still disagree with any level of implementation suggested here, but let's be honest about this.And now you are saying GOOD EXCUSE to add slavery to the game is it by making noticeable and important element to the game but it cannot teach anyone anything. :lol:

Like I made a point that you didn't have any real definition for your argument and I was right.

You're hanging yourself here.
That's pretty vague, what does it say about me? That I am an idiot and you know what you're talking about? Come on...get over yourself. Obviously this is just a weak cover story for the fact that you can no longer rationally defend your support for this ridiculous idea. If this is such a great idea with educational benefits, there would be more people clamoring for it and backing you up on it. :rolleyes:There are probably more people in this thread alone favoring the idea than going against it.

It's your idea that is ridiculous especially since it's unclear WTF it is actually that why you are against it. Only thing clear is that you are against it and use any possible excuse to make everyone supporting the view somehow being wrong.
That Historic Canada game is obviously meant to teach history, with voice overs explaining what you see in the 'game'. Civilization, where you can learn some bits of history along the way with a little perspective and background, is not like that. Just the same as if there was a game 'Historic World War II' that did the same thing, it's not going to have the same effect as say playing Company of Heroes which would be the equivalent relationship between 'Historic Canada' and Civilization: Colonization.Oh, God. Yes. We always need "voice overs" in order to learn something about slavery and to make it really "historical game". People don't know how to read or go look out for extra information from the net nowadays. It's ok as an excuse to add slavery as some theoretical design but as long as it won't try to teach anything. :crazyeye:
So there are 1-2 exceptions here on these boards of people who claim they were a prodigy and playing games specifically enlightened them about slavery. This is irrelevant in comparison to the masses, the majority of the population. A grand total of 4 people have voiced support for this mod, amazing!And total of something like 10 people were interested about Colonization mod way back when Civilization IV came out but now they are making game out of it.

Thing is that because of insensitive moralists that want to play "fun and entertaining" games without themselves ever encountering moral dilemmas is that why these very games aren't considered good teaching tools.
@C~G: I learned a lot about slavery, its beginnings, the practice, and its after effects. It's a travesty for you to tell others what they know about history when you're only making assumptions. No, it's actually you who is making those assumptions, others are trying to concentrate into real undertakings and trying to show that GAMES are used as TEACHING TOOLS and why it would be good idea ESPECIALLY with things like slavery that was essential element of colonization.
@I am simply standing up for the only rational conclusion I can make in regards to a mod centered on slavery and the civil war.:lol:
And your "rational conclusion" that you cannot base it into anything but your "it's bad"-feeling and "games are for fun only" is the only real thing around here?
@Silly 'feel good' arguments coming from folks like CyberChrist don't hold water in the real world. You don't make a game or modification assuming families are going to have an in depth talk about it as some bizarre justification for its insensitive content.And this is the final summation of your whole "rational conclusion and argument".

You think slavery is insenstive content and claim others base their opinion into "feel good" arguments when it's you who is insensitive to show people REAL HISTORY and not some washed up crap without pain and suffering and also the morals of the subject.
@C~G: That was a sad response, but since you tried so hard I guess you win :rolleyes:Yes, our side of the argument wins by miles. You didn' have anything but few lines and then your own "conclusion" that you had defended your point well. When in reality we're in Berlin and your officers are thinking of burning your body outside the bunker. :lol:
History as a grand concept to me is not one-dimensional and I believe the underlying problem here is the lack of understanding for different ways of viewing and treating history.And apparently your view of the history FOR GAMES is the only and right one?
There's a good chance that most who support the explicit slavery mod idea view history as 'it is what it is'. I would describe my point of view as 'history happens only once, it must be respected'. You can't change history, we all know this. I will preempt any baloney and say that suggesting that I want to alter history or suppress any aspect of it is folly. History is important to teach so we can learn from the mistakes and triumphs of the past. No.

We're making history right now and without learning how things COULD HAVE happened in the past we cannot change the future either.

You're saying first that history is some grand thing that can be seen from many perspectives but at the same time it's like you want to dismiss all the dynamics that affect the relations between different things, why different decisions are made and example to make show to people how slavery is partly the reason we are here right now discussing the very notion of it.

How to go about doing that is the point of argument hereYes, for you it's about not having fun but about dusty "serious" books. The days have changed my brother, kids need new tools and toys to learn about history. Game like Colonization is one of them.
The 'it is what it is' or 'anything goes' thinkers tend to feel that any method, outlet, or medium for teaching history is fair and appropriate--even if it is slavery or worse. Of course context is important in determining how tasteful a presentation of history is, but from my pov there are certain areas in history that deserve more respect.And who are you to decide what is that which needs more respect?

So I played game of Steel Panthers back in the days and example my countrymen, finnish soldiers, died in the game just by removing small icon of man from the squad. Is that moral?
When you open a history book or website the information is usually presented in a respectful, factual, and chronological manner, sometimes with side notes and photographs. You learn history in a realistic and academic way. When you play a video game, it's like watching (semi)fictional movie or playing a board game. Of course you can learn things including history through entertainment, at times that is an important function of it.And what exactly is why it cannot be an important function in Colonization? Why the exception here?...:confused:
However, a video game is a toy, albeit a complex one often intended for adult audiences. You don't toy around with the painful legacies of slavery, the holocaust, or poisoning or 'drugging' native populations in a commercial product.Yeah, I know.

Do you know why?

Because people don't want to know about those things and block their head way off from the experience that they are raping, pillaging and destroying other people to get their nation independent. That's why.

Problem with it is that it's the historical truth.

Could you explain why example it can be done to natives but not to african born?
Do so in a third party mod and on your head be it. This is the core of my argument. Fight the battle of Waterloo, conquer or liberate Europe in WWII, launch the first crusades, fine! Most of history is appropriate to be portrayed in games as there is no large swath of population to offend or disrespect so long as these subjects are treated with reasonable accuracy.Problem with that is then big population won't ever really go put their head through those things but think them just "minor things".

That's why Civilization feels entertainment and not more accurate history which reveals the beast within the mankind which would be the way to show what we and our societies are really made of.

I support games and mods that really go deeper to the history and show also the nasty stuff because that's the way to learn and comprehend the history. I understand why for commercial reasons as many people see these games just "packages of fun" such features as slavery isn't necessarily added but example it's utterly strange why it would be so for any other reason than that the people hypocrites (the dilemma with natives) and also because people don't to face the real history of mankind.
Go in public somewhere and poll some people with the question "Do you think it is appropriate to portray global slavery of the 16th-18th centuries in a computer game in a historical context?" I wouldn't expect the results to be slanted too far either way but the results would certainly be interesting. I'm sure you would have very different answers from those who have a more personal connection to the history of slavery because of their background and heritage.But, but...
Add to the question the notion of using it as "teaching tool" and the answer WILL BE different. Especially with those that have background of slavery.

So your argument falls apart.
Bottom line is it's just not a tasteful idea, the educational argument for including slavery explicitly within Colonization or subsequent modifications I will say again is a weak one. Kids shouldn't/don't need this or any other game to learn about slavery, they will learn about it long before hearing about let alone playing Colonization or this mod. Adults who don't already know about slavery by now are an enigma. The 'educational' you're trying to censor history! argument is a poor excuse for the idea of an explicit slavery mod. History should be respected not treated like a game! You can bake your cake and eat it too, nobody will stop you, but that doesn't stop me or anyone else from criticizing it, harshly.You can criticize it all the way if you want and I'll will be there to criticize your view and will tell all people how wonderful this idea it is.

This is the way of the digital world to teach people about history. Especially it's great starting point or encouraging feature search for more information about the subject.
Edit: The justifications argued for the mod here have been subjective, it's nothing less than bias to say that my opinion against it is any more subjective than the opinion for it. I have already thoroughly debunked the 'educational' argument for it.You haven't debunked nothing unless it's your own argument and showing why it exactly could be good idea use it as more of teaching tool rather than add it just as an element or treat it like it never happened.

BTW, I know what kind of your answer will be. You will say how greatly you have defined your point and how harshly you have been treated in this thread. So if that's it, please let it be.

Knowledge might mean more pain but truth will surely free you.
Otherwise the game will be real fantasy and you shouldn't call it never to be something like of "rewriting history with your own choices if you aren't allowed even such choice", let alone the effects of the choices and their aftermath.

It's really sad to see someone who thinks everything is neutral, there's 'good' and 'bad' things to everything. Do you think there were real good and bad things about slavery? It is all a matter of opinion, and let those who speak up be judged for it.
Who said anything about Slavery being either neutral, good or bad? You are reading a meaning into to a context that was never there.

Once again your post says more about you than about anyone/anything else. Sadly it also failed completely to counter any of the points in my post with anything but more subjective opinions and hot air.

I fear I was a fool to even try debating this with you a second time - rest assured there won't be a third attempt.

Who said anything about Slavery being either neutral, good or bad? You are reading a meaning into to a context that was never there.

Once again your post says more about you than about anyone/anything else. Sadly it also failed completely to counter any of the points in my post with anything but more subjective opinions and hot air.

I fear I was a fool to even try debating this with you a second time - rest assured there won't be a third attempt.

You're using argumentation as an argument against me and that doesn't work or make sense, you are dodging the point. Why aren't responding, because you can't? Slavery is bad. Why do you have a problem with agreeing? Obviously cause you've made up your mind to disagree with me no matter what I say.

On topic then when(if) you include a concept like Slavery in a game like Civ/Col, a good way of doing it would be to give the player a personal experience of why a nation might want to engage in slavery (benefits), why a nation might NOT want to engage in slavery (disadvantages) - and ultimately why slavery is wrong and should be fought whenever encountered (morals).This is the best and perfect explanation why it should be added along with that slavery is ESSENTIAL for explaining the history of the New World.

Come to think of it, I might even not play the game before this kind of mod with slavery comes out.

Since with out it, it's grand distortion of the reality of the truth and designed for the weak minded, opium for the masses disregarding real history.

Dvalin, you should have stopped when you had your chance.

:scared:

You say a lot but it adds up to meaning little ;) That seems to be your strategy, say as much about anything and everything to fluff up your counter-arguments.

From the beginning...


For you it's too much, for others it's too little not to include slavery to the game.

Your educational system must be failing if it's too little for people not to include explicit slave use and abuse in a computer game. Maybe out there you need complicated commercial strategy games to teach children or teens about slavery...again my opinion is (stop devaluing opinions to be nothing:rolleyes:) that this is an excuse not a realistic justification for the general mod idea. Surely, Civilization/Colonization are not here just to teach people history. Do you have any other reasoning besides this?

It is one way to educate people about history and slavery, and it has been done before.

Being from Finland and treating slavery as indifferently as 'just another part of history to teach' it's clear you do not have perspective like those who live here in the USA, a country with a very personal history of slavery.

So you answered the question and everybody should just shut up now? :lol:
So it's better to slave your own people than others?

I already answered questions you demand answers to, so you should maybe not try to smother me with you redundant points and exaggerated accusations. That is why I have not taken some of your posts so seriously, as you have mine. Don't deny it either, you can't stand every comment I make and quote every last one like I am sadly doing now.

While it is unclear whether the men who built the great pyramids were really slaves or not, there is a difference. Slaves from the 15th-17th centuries were forcibly removed from their homelands to have their lives turned into a living hell of servitude with (in most cases) the most meager of provisions, poor shelter, and almost no freedom to advance themselves for their entire lives. They were bred and raised to be human machines to slave away under the direction of their master. Only a lucky few would at least live with their master.

What's the difference between let's say building pyramids with your own people than using jews as work force in slave camps?

If you can't see the difference then you need :help:. First of all, an obvious difference is the nazi racial policy, ie. starving and working Jews to death not just because they 'needed' the labor but to kill off those Jews. Second of all, if the men who built the pyramids were slaves in the way we understand it, that is not a good thing and I did not say it was good but that it is not the worst case.

For you whole thing is about "bad taste" and you are right, those who don't like the idea don't have to download the mod. Everybody ends up being happy.

Except those who are offended may not be happy with it...people have morals and standards, and you expect them not to speak up? You think it is a just and moral purpose being done 'teaching' about slavery through these means and you feel compelled to speak loudly about it. Yet you completely misunderstand my motivations to do the same on behalf of myself and people I know?

What exactly is your position?

:dubious: :sleep:

That slavery is wrong

Don't you agree?

A) it doesn't need to be told to anyone

It doesn't need to be explicitly simulated in a game.

B) It needs to be told but game or mod is wrong platform to do it?

Yes, to me it is the wrong platform.

Make up your mind.

I have, it's both A and B. Where were you? :mischief:

I think it's rather sensible thing add such feature as slavery since it did shape the whole process of the colonization of New World.

It depends on how it is added and how much. I still would not download it, but a feature where you have a minor bonus in one place and setback in the other from implementing slavery is not as offensive as sailing to Africa to staff your tobacco plantation.

Or what next? Do you have also great moral dilemma of playing war games where people die.

In most cases those that are dying are soldiers meant to fight with advanced knowledge of what they are getting in to. We could explore this further specifically but there is no comparison between soldiers and slaves.

It depends how historically accurate you want to be. And if you add it to the game it is approriate to add the teachings of those things to the game.
Oh, and attacking native settlements and looting their villages isn't problematic. :mischief:

If you are referring to Civ (barb villages) this is no comparison to the activities of global slavery in the 15th-17th centuries. It is problematic from a moral standpoint if the looters are Spaniards and the natives are Aztec and Inca. If this is something prevalent in Colonization, hopefully those playing contemplate the real history. I don't find this to be likely rather I think it does just the opposite, makes a game out of mistreating civilians. I will still buy Colonization and play it, as there is more to the game than that.

Strange that in your perfect world of video games there isn't ANY PROBLEM FOR YOU that spanish get extra advantages of attacking Native settlements.
If you are so big in MORALS Isn't that bit problematic for you?

Do you have a problem with morals? It's not a perfect world but we can always try rather than give up. Is that a feature of Colonization, Spain has a bonus against natives? The immorality of the slave trade and the abuse and conquest of South America by the Spanish are similar, but at least in Colonization AFAIK the natives can fight back. The actual ideas for the simulation of explicit slavery in this mod have not been debated enough.

Come on, the shallowness of your point really makes me laugh. :lol:
How about fire bombing of opponent city which destroys it citizens and work force?

There is a line to be drawn, warfare is fun to simulate in games, that is obvious. I have no issue with war games, I like to play them too. In Civ the bombers damage military units, you can't bomb workers. It is purposefully generic and impersonal the way war is simulated in Civ, the suggestions for simulating slavery in this thread are not. I think your point is shallow and lacking empathy, especially your straw men comparisons of the Spanish conquests/inquisition, the Holocaust, and carpet bombing.

Get a grip yourself.

You should REALLY look around that GAMES are used as teaching tools even to the smallest of children nowadays in many places even IN SCHOOL.

Those games aren't like Colonization, they are usually made for teaching. They usually aren't commercial games like most leisure gamers play.

The point was that if the element of slavery is used as teaching tool rather than just one aspect of economics people might learn something out of it.

Again, the idea that they 'might' learn something is not enough of an excuse to me, but we could agree to disagree.

I bet that Colonization is played by people of many ages and for them learning about slavery and REAL HISTORY is way to go.

Real history as opposed to what? Isn't real history what really happened not a game's interpretation or alternate possibilities? It takes a video game to learn real history? Please! :rolleyes:

Add it as dynamic playable element and use it as platform to tell the background of why and how it happened.
No idea what you are saying here.

The game doesn't disseminate historical information in this way, telling background stories (real history) or explaining why and how. It puts the player in a historical setting with features resembling history, to create your own results for fun and challenge. In Civilization you may learn that the Augustus Caesar was a leader of Rome and that Praetorian were a special Roman force, but you don't learn that slaves were a large margin of the population. Any civ can use slaves, but this is irrelevant as the slavery civic is not the same as explicitly simulating the 15th-17th century slave trade in Colonization.

In Civ it was ok as barely noticeable element but after you add it as more important element people (still you claim it's "minor" sometimes? :confused:) aren't prepared to notice why it could be wrong?

You take the 'minor aspect' comment completely out of context. It was in correlation with my comment that to be morally sound and respectful of real history, the explicit slavery feature would have to be minor and unimportant or complicated with artificial drawbacks.

And whole point of the "click"-effect is at the same time to use it as teaching tool.

"Hands on slavery is pretty stupid way to learn about it"

That's your poor excuse for an argument? Are you serious?

Other games can teach things but this game not?
And now you are saying GOOD EXCUSE to add slavery to the game is it by making noticeable and important element to the game but it cannot teach anyone anything. :lol:

The 'hands-on' educational "it's for kids" argument is over, the debate has been done and it is dead, is there any other excuse?

Like I made a point that you didn't have any real definition for your argument and I was right.

I've been defining my argument more than necessary, but you continue pretending you cannot comprehend it.

You're hanging yourself here.
There are probably more people in this thread alone favoring the idea than going against it.

You can look at it as glass half full, but it is only natural that more people posting support the OP idea than speak against it. More people are indifferent than anything.

It's your idea that is ridiculous especially since it's unclear WTF it is actually that why you are against it. Only thing clear is that you are against it and use any possible excuse to make everyone supporting the view somehow being wrong.

If it's still unclear by now you're either lying or incredibly dim :crazyeye:. The idea is morally wrong to me, not factually wrong, since this is a matter of opinion.

Oh, God. Yes. We always need "voice overs" in order to learn something about slavery and to make it really "historical game". People don't know how to read or go look out for extra information from the net nowadays. It's ok as an excuse to add slavery as some theoretical design but as long as it won't try to teach anything. :crazyeye:

A pikeman slaughtering a Horse Archer doesn't teach anything about history, nor does whipping those last few turns on a wonder. It is all very minor, you exaggerate the historical learning argument way out of proportion.

Thing is that because of insensitive moralists that want to play "fun and entertaining" games without themselves ever encountering moral dilemmas is that why these very games aren't considered good teaching tools.

Do you really think games are better than classrooms and textbooks? The 'teaching tool' video game connection is weak. War is a moral dilemma, but nobody faces one when their axeman is destroyed by a crossbowman.

You think slavery is insenstive content and claim others base their opinion into "feel good" arguments when it's you who is insensitive to show people REAL HISTORY and not some washed up crap without pain and suffering and also the morals of the subject.

It's a game. People don't need a game to show them real history, you act like the only way to learn history is through video games and omitting anything is a crime against humanity.

Yes, our side of the argument wins by miles. You didn' have anything but few lines and then your own "conclusion" that you had defended your point well. When in reality we're in Berlin and your officers are thinking of burning your body outside the bunker.

"Our" side of the argument huh? I don't need anyone else to chime in for me, because I can argue my case all on my own and I know there are many who would agree with me. People outside of the gamer bubble.

I don't know what to say about the Berlin comment other than it is bizarre and nonsensical.

And apparently your view of the history FOR GAMES is the only and right one?

People can make up the own minds but anyone is free to offer up their view on it--which I have chosen to do.

We're making history right now and without learning how things COULD HAVE happened in the past we cannot change the future either.

Anyone who learns about slavery and still doesn't believe it shouldn't have happened or doesn't understand that it could have been prevented needs :help:

You're saying first that history is some grand thing that can be seen from many perspectives but at the same time it's like you want to dismiss all the dynamics that affect the relations between different things, why different decisions are made and example to make show to people how slavery is partly the reason we are here right now discussing the very notion of it.

Again, people don't need a game to learn about slavery nor will they ever. Is your last comment some sort of suggestive justification for the real slavery of the past?

Yes, for you it's about not having fun but about dusty "serious" books. The days have changed my brother, kids need new tools and toys to learn about history. Game like Colonization is one of them.

You are saying the exact same thing again. They don't need Colonization to learn, even if there is a slight chance they will learn a few things in between conquering and settling the new world. I still don't buy it.

And who are you to decide what is that which needs more respect?

Who are you to decide that all events in history are fair game to be taught in any context or through any means? People make moral judgments and set standards for themselves, and promote those standards. It's called doing what you think is right.

So I played game of Steel Panthers back in the days and example my countrymen, finnish soldiers, died in the game just by removing small icon of man from the squad. Is that moral?
And what exactly is why it cannot be an important function in Colonization? Why the exception here?...:confused:

They were soldiers doing their duty, not helpless civilians forced into bondage or massacred to make room for colonists. There is no comparison here.

Because people don't want to know about those things and block their head way off from the experience that they are raping, pillaging and destroying other people to get their nation independent. That's why.

Same goes for war games, right? The problem is you think implementing the raping and pillaging will help teach people that it is wrong, whereas I believe it will further desensitize people to it.

Problem with it is that it's the historical truth.

It should be respected, not put into a game to be used as a means to an end.

Could you explain why example it can be done to natives but not to african born?

Africans, native Mesoamericans, native Americans, it doesn't matter it's wrong any way you slice it. The reason why I use the African slave trade as my prime example is it is a well known part of slavery history.

That's why Civilization feels entertainment and not more accurate history which reveals the beast within the mankind which would be the way to show what we and our societies are really made of.

This is something you can come up with in a long drawn out argument like we have in this thread, but do you really think these are the things that cross the minds of players as they are playing?

I support games and mods that really go deeper to the history and show also the nasty stuff because that's the way to learn and comprehend the history. I understand why for commercial reasons as many people see these games just "packages of fun" such features as slavery isn't necessarily added but example it's utterly strange why it would be so for any other reason than that the people hypocrites (the dilemma with natives) and also because people don't to face the real history of mankind.

But, but...
Add to the question the notion of using it as "teaching tool" and the answer WILL BE different. Especially with those that have background of slavery.

Again, you must be special learning and comprehending so much from video games, I guess school was obsolete for you? Games are meant to be fun, the goal is to win and feel good about how you did it. You place too much stock in games as some sort of wonder teaching tool, I find it utterly strange myself.


So your argument falls apart.

I'm not seeing this, as much as you say it over and over.

This is the way of the digital world to teach people about history. Especially it's great starting point or encouraging feature search for more information about the subject.

That is as optimistic as one could be about the simulation of slavery in a game, I find it highly unrealistic and hard to believe.

You haven't debunked nothing unless it's your own argument and showing why it exactly could be good idea use it as more of teaching tool rather than add it just as an element or treat it like it never happened.

I'm tired of addressing the same two points to no end. "It's a teaching tool" and "opposing it is to censor history"

BTW, I know what kind of your answer will be. You will say how greatly you have defined your point and how harshly you have been treated in this thread. So if that's it, please let it be.

I have defined it over and over, which you deny over and over...that is why I have to remind you. The difference between you and I is you have treated me harshly with insinuations (you admitted it already) whereas I have tried to stay focused on the moral rationale and debunking the 'educational' argument.

Knowledge might mean more pain but truth will surely free you.

What are you talking about? What knowledge/truth? I already learned about slavery and it wasn't through a video game. This is so over the top :lol:

Otherwise the game will be real fantasy and you shouldn't call it never to be something like of "rewriting history with your own choices if you aren't allowed even such choice", let alone the effects of the choices and their aftermath.

We disagree on the useful functions of video games, it's a matter of opinion, really. A mixture of history and entertainment is normal for games, for that reason it is crossing the line to take that mixture and add sensitive aspects like slavery so explicitly.

:nuke:

Well at least you gave a decent answer. :)

I will answer back later in more detail to your point, I'm in kind of hurry currently.

For now I can only say that your approach towards video games is one dimensional and the line you draw which aspects of history should be implented is extremely random.

You have no problem adding other elements that many can easily see as morally wrong as slavery (even other kinds of slavery) but you seem to draw the line whenever you want.

And I have attacked your character and it's very much because the way you presented your case from the start. From moral high horse and thinking that games couldn't be ever to be used as teaching tools. And you have been saying this point has somehow already addressed when IT'S NOT. In your mind maybe but others like plenty of actual history teachers don't agree with you and I even gave you one example. You didn't bother even answer it, just regarded it some kind of "different game" than Civilization.

As said you want the Disney version but plenty of others want the real version. Not because they so much like the slavery but because they want to know what history in those days was about.

But what is problematic and extremely strange how you miss the part where you attack other people and their stance and represent their character as immoral (now you even mention that me being from Finland is somehow clear disadvantage when compared your being from US. You probably understand that because of that very fact your opinion is very much subjective and I might be able to be more objective? :D). And unfortunately non of my points have been strawmen but quite important questions regarding the line drawing of what is immoral for computer games and whatnot. It seems you aren't ready to debate that issue but claim (which you don't hold as only your opinion but as fact that others just have to comply with) slavery regarding this specific scenario differs from all the other aspects of possible inhumane cruelty shown in games and that's why it's immoral and not useful to be added as element.

I can tell you why right now slavery isnt' part of the game. That is because in US the slavery is touchy subject and people want to close their eyes from it that their country might be build by the blood, sweat and tears of others. That's the cold truth and it's very unfortunate people need to escape such historical facts when they play video game that is about writing your own history and creating your own nation. I know you will be against this saying they learn about it in school but then it rises the question why on earth it cannot be part of the game if they know it's wrong? Why they cannot do their own decisions do they use slaves or not in their own colonization? Is there any other reason than it's not popular? NO and you haven't been able to even close convince anyone otherwise. Actually your own argument is totally based into the idea that this particular slavery is wrong to ever be part of the game and should be also mentioned in school while others seem to see the problem with that choice. The most important being that if computer game that is about COLONIZATION of the new world doesn't have slavery element it's like driving car in a rally game without front wheels.

That is the dilemma with your argument that I don't simply comprehend. You might say it's only my thick head but if you look closely it doesn't make sense to oppose adding slavery if people know why it's wrong if other similar (like slaughtering natives and destroying whole tribes! :eek:) is there but then adding any kind of teaching element to it, isn't in your opinion good because the game is for fun. So it's ok to kill natives for fun, looting them for gold to build up a nation (without any historical lesson or use it as teaching tool!) but slavering blacks from Africa is wrong? What the heck is with that?

I feel compelled to say I see the destruction and enslavement of natives and your total disregard for those facts as complete absurdity when thinking you're so wholeheartedly against adding slavery to the game.

IMHO if you use history as entertainment the least you can do is add learning experience to the mix including morals which makes the game not only richer but also fairer to the people of those who had to suffer in order to others being able to continue build up their dreams.

The most hurting element of your post is that you deny the immorality of killing of human being even though a soldier that has been just ordered go to front line or the human civilian casualty of raped or bombed city just in order to get your precious little point across how bad slavery is. It makes me sick really. Strange how those that are so big moralists are always so small on morals after all. Hypocrisy in action.

As said in more detail laterz, if you still have any teeth left. :cool:

(BTW, you should maybe check into Offtopic-forum here and tell people that C~G is immoral jerk and they will most likely laugh their bottoms off. :lol:)

As said in more detail laterz, if you still have any teeth left. :cool:

I'm smiling with a full set :goodjob:

And I have attacked your character and it's very much because the way you presented your case from the start. From moral high horse and thinking that games couldn't be ever to be used as teaching tools. And you have been saying this point has somehow already addressed when IT'S NOT. In your mind maybe but others like plenty of actual history teachers don't agree with you and I even gave you one example. You didn't bother even answer it, just regarded it some kind of "different game" than Civilization.

The 'high horse' accusation is pretty typical of anti-moral gray area folks like yourself. You don't agree with the blunt definitions of right and wrong presented to you so you go after the person over the premise.

You have no problem adding other elements that many can easily see as morally wrong as slavery (even other kinds of slavery) but you seem to draw the line whenever you want.

I draw the line somewhere, not willy nilly. You don't seem to draw it anywhere!

We could go in circles a few more times arguing about 'educational teaching tools', or games as you call them--but that really would be redundant. Firstly I will say I'm offended that you would insinuate the USA was built "by the blood, sweat and tears of others", which is as a general description simply false. Obviously you have anti-American feelings on your mind and here they come out. History teachers may or may not agree with me but there you go trying to represent people without their actual input. I'm sure there would be a fine line with many of them between a game like Colonization simulating explicit slavery and 'Historic Canada'.

I have defined my moral rationale against the specific topic of the thread five times over. It's time to agree to disagree over the appropriate uses of commercial games, you think anything goes, I say no to some things. I won't continue arguing about it as there is nothing left to argue, anything more is just a reiteration of what's already been said.

But what is problematic and extremely strange how you miss the part where you attack other people and their stance and represent their character as immoral

Attacking someone's viewpoints is not the same as attacking the person's image or insulting their intelligence. You are obviously quite accustomed to taking that approach. If someone supports an immoral act or idea, they are not bad people, but they are making a bad choice and promoting that bad choice. I am not stating that I am right like you have done a handful of times, I am explaining why your characterization of my argument as being personal attacks is false.

(BTW, you should maybe check into Offtopic-forum here and tell people that C~G is immoral jerk and they will most likely laugh their bottoms off. :lol:)

I don't plan to visit the Off-Topic forum because unlike yourself who must live or work here one of the two, I don't have the time or patience to accumulate thousands of posts to brag about later. Maybe that makes you more subjective, and me more objective? It's probably neither, both in this case and the US-Finland point. However, it's only logical that since your history is sparse with the legacy of slavery, your perspective is doomed to be too objective. You don't quite understand the brutal realness of slavery. Your comment that you may not even buy the game until there is a way to have explicitly simulated slavery says enough about your perspective on the real history of slavery. Even more hysterical than anything thus far is your terribly flawed comparisons between slavery and soldiery!

It's pretty desperate to say:

The most hurting element of your post is that you deny the immorality of killing of human being even though a soldier that has been just ordered go to front line or the human civilian casualty of raped or bombed city just in order to get your precious little point across how bad slavery is. It makes me sick really. Strange how those that are so big moralists are always so small on morals after all. Hypocrisy in action.

This isn't 'hurting' because it's a fallacious claim through and through. It contradicts my actual words completely. You were the one making useless comparisons between carpet bombing and slavery when I pointed out that for good reason, workers can't be bombed in Civ IV. These comparisons you pull out of thin air are irrelevant to the specific topic. Anyone who thinks bombing civilians or destroying native peoples is justified and slavery isn't, would be totally nuts. Do you really think I am that stupid or is it just too good of a smear to pass up? The topic is slavery: slavery.

It is a strawman to say that since I am not often mentioning other immoral aspects of the colonization period that I think they are moral or okay. Suggesting that I don't think the Spanish conquest/colonization of Incan/Aztec lands and the displacement/destruction of Indian tribes by colonial America were full of wrong doing and utterly immoral acts is just grasping at straws. It's not a witty point either. I have yet to play Colonization like everybody else nor do I know much about it's features. If I find it to be insensitive and biased, I will cross that bridge when I get there but not in this thread. You are just trying to paint me as a hypocrite as it's one of the few convenient angles you can exploit and skew.

Actually your own argument is totally based into the idea that this particular slavery is wrong to ever be part of the game and should be also mentioned in school while others seem to see the problem with that choice. The most important being that if computer game that is about COLONIZATION of the new world doesn't have slavery element it's like driving car in a rally game without front wheels.

Actually the African slave trade is just my prime example in the argument. Saying a game about the colonization of the 'new world' must have explicit simulation of slavery to be fair or accurate is like saying the Confederate flag has no racist overtones because 'it's just history'. History greets us in the present, it's a living/changing creature that affects us today, not just a museum piece to awe over. Certain areas deserve more respect than others, not to be toyed with in a game for everyone's amusement.

While I don't agree with all of the views of the infamous blogger who accused Colonization of being a racist enabler, I will quote him:

"A game about colonization that's entirely about controlling the settlers (or slaves) can either force the player to do horrific things or let him avoid doing it and whitewash some of the worst events of human history. Either option is offensive."

I think the problem with us history oriented gamers is we start to think everything is relative and lose individual perspective.

Your educational system must be failing if it's too little for people not to include explicit slave use and abuse in a computer game....Do you have any other reasoning besides this?Beside what?

Mod idea doesn't need justification, it just needs people to make it happen.

Surely there's line somewhere but it certain