I've always kept them, it's great when the NP comes around.

But let's say, look at this game

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v367/amethystjewel/peterspigsplantsandpyramids.png

Good start, but what would you do? Chop all those forests for a mega city, or keep them for awesome NP ownage?

Chop (and farm) the 7 grassland forests, keep the 4 hill forests.

I'd say chop. You have pigs, clams, and fresh water.

Above the health cap, each additional pop costs 3 food. So farming above that gains almost nothing. You have +14 food from resources, you can use up 8 food on mines (size at least 9) or you can run 7 specialists (size 11). The remainder would be 7 forests, and you have 3 base health +2 from clams (with harbor), 2 from aqueduct, 1 from pig, so 8 health, so you want to save at least 6 forests.

Above the health cap, each additional pop costs 3 food. So farming above that gains almost nothing. You have +14 food from resources, you can use up 8 food on mines (size at least 9) or you can run 7 specialists (size 11). The remainder would be 7 forests, and you have 3 base health +2 from clams (with harbor), 2 from aqueduct, 1 from pig, so 8 health, so you want to save at least 6 forests.

I think he plays Noble so base health is plus 4. And he can trade the excess 2 clams for something else. A harbor will give +1 health as well.
If he mines the hillsbut doesn't road them. he can pilliage the mines and let the forest preserves regrow the trees.

It looks like your neighbours are very close. You should contemplate the chances of them declaring on you (which will mostly depend on how well you'll handle the diplomacy aspect). If they do, then they'll march their stacks of doom into your territory and park them right next to your city. In OCC, it's very helpful if those tiles are not forested, so you'll get a much better chance at defeating them.

So, if you think war is in the air, I'd suggest you chop down the forests in the first ring around the city, and to lay down roads everywhere.

Chop (and farm) the 7 grassland forests, keep the 4 hill forests.

Not sure how you plan to get enough health for a size 22 city... with no chops that is size 11 so you should prolly chop 3 forests or something...

My inclination is exactly the opposite of DaveMcW's: chop a few (or all of) the hills, leave the flatland forests. Do not put roads on the hills; you may eventually want to pillage the mines and let forests regrow.

My inclination is exactly the opposite of DaveMcW's: chop a few (or all of) the hills, leave the flatland forests. Do not put roads on the hills; you may eventually want to pillage the mines and let forests regrow.

MyOtherName,

I'm goin to have to side with Dave here. The National Park comes late, and in a OCC you only have vertical growth. By leaving as many forests as possible NintendoTogepi will be able to reach a much higher health cap earlier. The earlier part is important because he won't need to build a harbor for a mere +1 or +2 bonus, thus saving him time, hammers and food.

Also, a lumbermill'd forest hill yields the same amount of hammers as a minned hill while retaining the health bonus from the forest and lumbermills will eventually the same + hammer bonus from railroad as a mine. If played (what I consider) properly, in the early game he will be whipping a lot, so not many hammers will be lost by working the forests instead of the mines by the time he reaches Replaceable Parts.

Food = vertical growth. And under Slavery, food = hammers. So farm the riverside grasslands, and chop everything outside of your BFC.

You can't pop a metal out of a lumbermill.

Mines? Lumbermills?

The best improvement you can put on a hill is a National Park Forest Preserve.

Not if it has a metal ;)

Metals don't produce GPP.

My suggestion would be to chop 2 of the grasslands and 2 of the hill forests. That way you get 2 farms and 2 mines to help with production.

Metals don't produce GPP.
Metals produce blades and cannons ;) GP does not win wars .

Metals produce blades and cannons ;) GP does not win wars .

Are you still talking about an OCC game?

Yup....

Or do you think that you can't win wars in OCC? (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=256218)

If I understand correctly:
On a grassland tile you either have a forest preserve in the end, or a farm. Post-biology (which we are talking about) both will give a specialist (+2F for the grassland farm) so the only difference is one extra hammer for the forest preserve (and perhaps a commerce at some point?).
On the other hand on a hill you can either get a specialist using a forest preserve (not even bothering to work the tile, a plains hill forest preserve worked just gives hammers, as it costs 2F to work it), or hammers at the cost of food.

In an OCC you want as many specialists as possible, so chopping hill tiles is very bad. On the other hand chopping a flatland tile is suboptimal in the end, but the cost is only little and the early growth benefits are probably higher. I'm not sure whether I would chop all flatland tiles though, especially not if I did not work them before NP.

One tip: definitely chop the forests outside your BFC, even those outside your cultural borders, they give hammers (though somewhat less than the forests in your BFC), and don't affect your NP effectiveness.

If I understand correctly:
On a grassland tile you either have a forest preserve in the end, or a farm. Post-biology (which we are talking about) both will give a specialist (+2F for the grassland farm) so the only difference is one extra hammer for the forest preserve (and perhaps a commerce at some point?).
On the other hand on a hill you can either get a specialist using a forest preserve (not even bothering to work the tile, a plains hill forest preserve worked just gives hammers, as it costs 2F to work it), or hammers at the cost of food.

Another thing not to be overlooked is the health bonus that is lost when a tile is chopped. Above the health limit, a chopped forrest means -0.5 food. Any worked tile above the health limit further costs 3 food per turn. So, a post-biology farm that WOULD have been a forrest produces only a lousy 0.5 food per turn when worked on top of a health deficit. Pre biology, chopped farms are food negative. Working the grassland forrest is, of course, also food negative according to this approach. The thing is, you neither need to, nor want to work the forrest for any reason except that silly hammer and the minor commerce gain from the preserve.

MyOtherName,

I'm goin to have to side with Dave here. The National Park comes late, and in a OCC you only have vertical growth. By leaving as many forests as possible NintendoTogepi will be able to reach a much higher health cap earlier.
Chopping all 7 flatland forests, as DaveMcW suggests, will mean an even lower health cap than I am advocating.

The earlier part is important because he won't need to build a harbor for a mere +1 or +2 bonus, thus saving him time, hammers and food.
Mines, represent extra hammers, meaning you have more available for such things. And more importantly, it means that you can more quickly build things like the pyramids, the great library, the national epic, ....

Also, a lumbermill'd forest hill yields the same amount of hammers as a minned hill
Don't forget that replaceable parts also comes late. ;) I usually pillage my mines long before I research it, and have already had some of my forests regrow.


If played (what I consider) properly, in the early game he will be whipping a lot,
So this is where we differ. It could very well be true that I don't whip enough -- but I confess that it's hard to imagine that chopping forests to make room for farms would be helpful, particularly because of the huge food surplus already available. And it's hard to whip wonders anyways....

Chopping all 7 flatland forests, as DaveMcW suggests, will mean an even lower health cap than I am advocating.

With a lower health cap but also a lower amount of vertical growth, too. Vertical growth is very important as each extra citizen can be specialized to do a LOT of things.

Mines, represent extra hammers, meaning you have more available for such things. And more importantly, it means that you can more quickly build things like the pyramids, the great library, the national epic, ....

That's what whipping is for. Food = production.

Don't forget that replaceable parts also comes late. ;) I usually pillage my mines long before I research it, and have already had some of my forests regrow.

You're trading one extra hammer for health and future specialists. Though you do gain the hammers from chopping, which is very useful, it doesn't offset the endgame bonus from having 3 hammers 1 commerce and 1 specialist.

Also, basing your strategy on something that might or might not happen is not always a good thing.

So this is where we differ. It could very well be true that I don't whip enough -- but I confess that it's hard to imagine that chopping forests to make room for farms would be helpful, particularly because of the huge food surplus already available. And it's hard to whip wonders anyways....

Yeah, I think we're just different here. I love to whip, and I have no problem whipping wonders because I'll use unit overflow to whip a wonder. Farms are the lifeblood of a SE, imo.

I agree with Dave totally - chop the flats and farm them (biology farm = 1 specialist as does forest preserve) and save the hills.

I also like to chop forests in the outer borders sparingly - ideally chopping only forests that have another forest next to them so they might regrow. Over time I get enough regrowth to revisit and rechop. Forest preserves in these outer regions can be good too for regrowth.

I wouldn't chop.
biology farm = 1 specialist as does forest preserve
but forests give hammers as well.

You are Peter i suppose, expansive is useless for OCC but at least you get the +2 health....I would chop everything in sight to get pyramids then farm everything and run max specialists with representation. Keep good relations, exchange some health resources and you should be fine until bilology. The extra GP from NP are nice but early tech boost from representation is huge.

When working toward a space win, I haven't generally found early hammers to be that critical (maybe I'm not greedy enough about wonders), where I find settled scientists to be crucial.

11 health gets you seven specialists, but you need 14 health to get to 8 specialists, or 17 to get to 9 (pre biology). Doesn't look like we are expanding into a lot of extra health either, so I would normally expect to leave the trees alone.

You are Peter i suppose, expansive is useless for OCC but at least you get the +2 health....I would chop everything in sight to get pyramids then farm everything and run max specialists with representation. Keep good relations, exchange some health resources and you should be fine until bilology. The extra GP from NP are nice but early tech boost from representation is huge.

I think you have it backwards; the extra tech boost in the early game is nice but the ELEVEN free specialists from NP is what's huge. I love the NP combined with Sid's Sushi on Archipelago maps. It's rare that one has enough early production to run as many specialists as possible. I usually beeline drama then whip everything relating to infrastructure then switch to caste.

I think you have it backwards; the extra tech boost in the early game is nice but the ELEVEN free specialists from NP is what's huge. I love the NP combined with Sid's Sushi on Archipelago maps. It's rare that one has enough early production to run as many specialists as possible. I usually beeline drama then whip everything relating to infrastructure then switch to caste.

You forget that with early representation you will get to biology way earlier. You cannot afford to leave all forests untouched and wait for biology as you will not have the food to develope fast. Fast start is what is important, not catching up after you get to biology.


It is better to stagnate at some point due to health and having representation scientists tech at mad pace, than to keep the forests and grow 3-4 size bigger and have non representation scientists.

Keeping the hill forests as Dave said will provide some health.

Also having pyramids lets you skip nationalism, constitution and go straight the biology way, so you need 2 techs less to get there.

You forget that with early representation you will get to biology way earlier. You cannot afford to leave all forests untouched and wait for biology as you will not have the food to develope fast. Fast start is what is important, not catching up after you get to biology.

He has three clams and a pig. This city will have plenty of food.

It is better to stagnate at some point due to health and having representation scientists tech at mad pace, than to keep the forests and grow 3-4 size bigger and have non representation scientists.

Keeping the hill forests as Dave said will provide some health.

Also having pyramids lets you skip nationalism, constitution and go straight the biology way, so you need 2 techs less to get there.

I never said anything about not building the pyramids. Of course he should have representation and bureaucracy as his two staple civics. Of course. All I said was he shouldn't chop any of those forests and I gave my reasons (the hammers from the forests and the specialists from the NP) and I'm certainly not convinced otherwise. I've won Monarch OCC's with similar starts. He needs to get an early start on the 'mids, but with three forested plains hills, it's certainly possible to build them. Chop outside the BFC, and save the forests for the specialists later.

I wouldn't chop.

but forests give hammers as well.

Chopping them gives you hammers in the short term - which is always good.

And farming them lets you get hammers in the medium term - through whipping or supporting mines. You will get more hammers from a farm than a forest if you choose to use it for production. Eg two grassland farms can support one plains mine = 4 hammers - while two grassland forests only generate 2 hammers.

Or the farms let you run specialists which generate future great people which generate future hammers and science.

You get more hammers right until you build the national park - which is pretty late in the game. So yes I would trade more hammers in the early and mid game for slightly fewer hammers in the late game. By then the free hammers from settled specialists will far outweigh what you get from working forests.

Chopping them gives you hammers in the short term - which is always good.

And farming them lets you get hammers in the medium term - through whipping or supporting mines. You will get more hammers from a farm than a forest if you choose to use it for production. Eg two grassland farms can support one plains mine = 4 hammers - while two grassland forests only generate 2 hammers.

Or the farms let you run specialists which generate future great people which generate future hammers and science.

You get more hammers right until you build the national park - which is pretty late in the game. So yes I would trade more hammers in the early and mid game for slightly fewer hammers in the late game. By then the free hammers from settled specialists will far outweigh what you get from working forests.
I sort of agree, but this city already has a crapload of food. Beelining drama and then building Globe will allow you to whip to your hearts content without chopping. in the meantime the happiness cap isn't going to be all that high, maybe 8? the three forested plains hills will provide 3:hammers:, the same as a mined grassland hill. Also, in my experience, OCC's don't end until the future era, so biology is more like 1/2 to 2/3 of the way through at the latest. With a philosophical leader, that's a lot of great persons that will still created by the free specialists given to you by the national park. I'm still not chopping.

This is OCC...there is never enough food...

Whipping is only usefull until codes of law (which should be a priority anyway), after that, you need to max specialists and keep growing. with all the settled specialists you will have enough hammers to build units in 1-2 turns anyway.

Before Globe there is no need to farm a lot in this city... the :) cap will not allow the use of most of the farms, that is assured. Nintendo normally plays on Noble so with religion, temple and Rep, maybe 11-12 :) ? The resources tiles give 20 food, enough for pop 10.... so extensive farming pre Globe is useless ( limited farming ( 2 , 3 farms ) is a good idea ).

Now if we are talking chopping, that is a whole diferent thing.

Before Globe there is no need to farm a lot in this city... the :) cap will not allow the use of most of the farms, that is assured. Nintendo normally plays on Noble so with religion, temple and Rep, maybe 11-12 :) ? The resources tiles give 20 food, enough for pop 10.... so extensive farming pre Globe is useless ( limited farming ( 2 , 3 farms ) is a good idea ).

Now if we are talking chopping, that is a whole diferent thing.


????? You get Pyramids (by chopping) and at same time go for codes of law, switch to monarchy and caste and skip the religious path...then aesthetics - literature drama and after that philosophy (to get a religion and the 100% GP bonus).

When drama is teched switch to representation and use culture slider for hapiness, while building GT but build NE first...

This is OCC...there is never enough food...

Whipping is only usefull until codes of law (which should be a priority anyway), after that, you need to max specialists and keep growing. with all the settled specialists you will have enough hammers to build units in 1-2 turns anyway.

An OCC city is like any other city with health and happiness limits. You can't just "keep growing" otherwise you're going to have pissed off citizens eating food and not working, hence the term "happy cap." if you want to switch to caste right away, that's your prerogative, but scientists don't add production, and there are buildings, wonders, and units that your city needs. With Globe and slavery you can whip out anything you need. Caste is better once you have your essential infrastructure and a solid defense force. It's not like you start the game with a bunch of settled scientists, priests, or engineers. Your production has to come from tiles.

????? You get Pyramids (by chopping) and at same time go for codes of law, switch to monarchy and caste and skip the religious path...then aesthetics - literature drama and after that philosophy (to get a religion and the 100% GP bonus).

When drama is teched switch to representation and use culture slider for hapiness, while building GT but build NE first...
HR in OCC? That is a curious concept... must try it someday. Either way the tech pace would be slower than a :) limited Rep atleast until you get 1/2 more scientists.

An OCC city is like any other city with health and happiness limits. You can't just "keep growing" otherwise you're going to have pissed off citizens eating food and not working, hence the term "happy cap." if you want to switch to caste right away, that's your prerogative, but scientists don't add production, and there are buildings, wonders, and units that your city needs. With Globe and slavery you can whip out anything you need. Caste is better once you have your essential infrastructure and a solid defense force. It's not like you start the game with a bunch of settled scientists, priests, or engineers. Your production has to come from tiles.


The only buildings you need are granary, lighthouse, library and barracks. All these come early so whip them.

Wonders are useless, you only need pyramids and GL. Go only for those although GLib will be hard to get since you need NE first, GT can wait until after GLib.

Unless you max your scientists to the extreme with caste system you will never realize the potential of 1 city specialist econ. Don't worry about stagnating with unhealthiness, it is better to stagnate running max scientists than to grow working forests.

The only buildings you need are granary, lighthouse, library and barracks. All these come early so whip them.

Wonders are useless, you only need pyramids and GL. Go only for those although GLib will be hard to get since you need NE first, GT can wait until after GLib.

Unless you max your scientists to the extreme with caste system you will never realize the potential of 1 city specialist econ. Don't worry about stagnating with unhealthiness, it is better to stagnate running max scientists than to grow working forests.

If those are the only buildings you want, that's fine, but I'm going to build a forge, temples, monasteries, cathedrals, a market, a grocer, a bank, a theater, a university, an observatory, a laboratory, a factory, a levee, a hydro plant, a supermarket, and I'm going to shoot for the oracle, hanging gardens, the AP, the Hagia Sophia, angkor wat, the university of sankore, and any other wonder I might be able to get that doesn't pollute my pool with artist points. I'm not running Caste until I have National Park built.

If those are the only buildings you want, that's fine, but I'm going to build a forge, temples, monasteries, cathedrals, a market, a grocer, a bank, a theater, a university, an observatory, a laboratory, a factory, a levee, a hydro plant, a supermarket, and I'm going to shoot for the oracle, hanging gardens, the AP, the Hagia Sophia, angkor wat, the university of sankore, and any other wonder I might be able to get that doesn't pollute my pool with artist points. I'm not running Caste until I have National Park built.

No worries, it sounds a good plan!!