I just moved from Immortal to Deity and I'm having a bit of trouble. Not all of these questions are related to the difficulty of deity. The main problem I am having is getting boxed in every game and off to a really slow start. On Immortal this was a problem but on Deity it seems to have gotten alot worse.

Right now here are the game settings I'm using:
Map: Pangea
Size: Large
12 Total Civs
Deity Difficulty
BTS Latest Patch

Right now I'm flip-flopping between two leaders in particular: Suryarmen II and Zara Yaqob. So these questions should be taken in the context of using these two particular leaders and the context of the map and difficulty settings.

One quick question off the bat: Will the AI take into account the fact that I've already researched some of a tech when we trade? IE: Can I get tech that costs more Beakers off the AI for a lesser tech if I do some research into it?

So the game starts and the first thing I build is a worker. I don't suppose that building a scout or a warrior would be a better alternative?

My first Tech is usually Arg/AH depending on the setup, perhaps fishing if the start is coastal.

My second tech is almost always archery, but it poses a problem, somewhere with 10-6 turns before archery is discovered, my worker is done. What am i suppose to build next? I want to build an archer, but I can't.

My next tech is BW, then the Wheel, then Pottery, then Writing, then Aesthetics. I trade it around to try and get some back techs. What should be my next tech? I'm thinking the best choices would be Literature or Metal Casting so i can trade it to the AI's?

Most of the time I end up with around 3-4 cities before being completely boxed in my the AI. Is this normal for this setup?

Early on I would like to build a big military so the AI has a reason not to declare war but I can't without having to pay Unit Costs which cripple my already slow economy. Should I bite the bullet and pay more gold per turn for some more military or just build to the limit and be prepared to whip if a war breaks out?

I rarely build world wonders, even mid game when i am the first one to reach a tech. The problem I have is this, if I'm the first one to a tech, and I don't trade it around, my friends will ask for it and my enemies will demand it. The only way for me to be the first one to build the wonder is to monopolize the tech. So in order to build the wonder I have to take the diplomacy hit. So I usually just trade the tech around. So I suppose my question is this, do you guys usually build many wonders? What are some wonders that are excellent enough to try hard and get despite whatever downsides come with it?

My second tech is almost always archery, but it poses a problem, somewhere with 10-6 turns before archery is discovered, my worker is done. What am i suppose to build next? I want to build an archer, but I can't.

You sent your first warrior exploring, right? Build a warrior for happiness in your capital.


Early on I would like to build a big military so the AI has a reason not to declare war but I can't without having to pay Unit Costs which cripple my already slow economy. Should I bite the bullet and pay more gold per turn for some more military or just build to the limit and be prepared to whip if a war breaks out?

Keeping up on the power graph is very important, but units aren't the only option! Barracks and walls also scare AIs away.

One quick question off the bat: Will the AI take into account the fact that I've already researched some of a tech when we trade? IE: Can I get tech that costs more Beakers off the AI for a lesser tech if I do some research into it?


Definitely yes.
For example: a common way to get alphabet is to research Aesthetics and then 2~4 turns into alphabet.

Regarding your general deity concerns, if you look up a thread called "homeyg and deity" it shows some nice deity wins despite a very small early empire.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=260815&page=7
(http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=260815&page=7)

Well i'm actually playing my third deity game now but the 2 games i did were successful so here's my take.

1. yes on all levels
2. building worker first is (almost) always correct, checkout Flo7's deity pangae start,
several people have played the first 40 turns, it's a start where after getting a pasture on cows the worker 'll have nothing todo for ~20 turns, still worker first turned out to be the best move. Exception is seafood, in this case it can be better to build boats first depending on the exact specifics of that map.
3. Agree with agr/ah or fishing generally. i'd delay archery and build some warriors depending on the map (if lots of ai's around you can delay it more), also depending on starting with hunting or not.

4.Generally agree with aesthetics first after the small techs, sailing is important too though for foreign routes. After aesthetics see what you get in trade, currency is always THE key tech though so you can sell off rubbish for gold (deity ais have lots of gold generally) I have found that i can research for a long time on 100% after currency on deity. MC's not so good, the ais somewhat prioritize MC.Literature and drama are great, COl can be ok too sometimes.

5. You should imo always try to get 6 cities at least, otherwise you can only realistically pursue cultural i feel so early expansion/blocking is key.

6. Early on you just have to get lucky, after you should use all your diplo skills to get your neighbours to pleased, it's for a reason that Monty's so popular on deity, being able to switch religion and civics according to situation is huge on deity.There's noway you can keep up with the ais in military early on imo. If you get declared on early probably go on to the next game.

7. Well there's no need to build wonders is there? On deity i sometimes build the GL, not that i build so much more on immortal. Trading techs on deity is key imo, if you don't do it someone else usually will, when playing on deity i trade like mad.

Right now here are the game settings I'm using:
Map: Pangea
Size: Large
12 Total Civs
Deity Difficulty
BTS Latest Patch

Perhaps going down to Standard and using 7 total civs including you would be easier? Then, once you get the hang of it, go bac up.

One quick question off the bat: Will the AI take into account the fact that I've already researched some of a tech when we trade? IE: Can I get tech that costs more Beakers off the AI for a lesser tech if I do some research into it?

Yes. This is a tactic one should be familiar with on Immortal and Deity by now.

So the game starts and the first thing I build is a worker. I don't suppose that building a scout or a warrior would be a better alternative?

My first Tech is usually Arg/AH depending on the setup, perhaps fishing if the start is coastal.

It completely depends on the map and leader, so I can't give you a specific answer. If you've got one of those all forest start and your worker will be idle go warrior first (NOT scout as they are useless).

My second tech is almost always archery, but it poses a problem, somewhere with 10-6 turns before archery is discovered, my worker is done. What am i suppose to build next? I want to build an archer, but I can't.

My next tech is BW, then the Wheel, then Pottery, then Writing, then Aesthetics. I trade it around to try and get some back techs. What should be my next tech? I'm thinking the best choices would be Literature or Metal Casting so i can trade it to the AI's?

Agree with archery. Just partial build a barracks or a warrior if your warrior died. Also, if you start with mysticism, partial build stonehenge for cash.

And NO on Metal Casting. Metal Casting is not a tech you should self-research early unless you somehow oracled it because the AI gets it fast. After Aesthetics, go for LIBERALISM.

Most of the time I end up with around 3-4 cities before being completely boxed in my the AI. Is this normal for this setup?

Of course! :goodjob:

Early on I would like to build a big military so the AI has a reason not to declare war but I can't without having to pay Unit Costs which cripple my already slow economy. Should I bite the bullet and pay more gold per turn for some more military or just build to the limit and be prepared to whip if a war breaks out?

Don't waste your time building military. Even if you build so much that your economy goes in the dirt you will still have only half as much military as the AI does. Normally on immortal level (I don't play enough on deity) I have about 10 to 20 percent of the power of the AI's next to me and I am perfectly fine.

I rarely build world wonders, even mid game when i am the first one to reach a tech. The problem I have is this, if I'm the first one to a tech, and I don't trade it around, my friends will ask for it and my enemies will demand it. The only way for me to be the first one to build the wonder is to monopolize the tech. So in order to build the wonder I have to take the diplomacy hit. So I usually just trade the tech around. So I suppose my question is this, do you guys usually build many wonders? What are some wonders that are excellent enough to try hard and get despite whatever downsides come with it?

The Great Library. The Great Lighthouse on a map with lots of coastal cities and tundra coastal cities to make them better.

And if people demand ANYTHING, Always give it to them! This is absolutely crucial.

Always cave in to any demands? Nah - not if it's some faraway AI that isn't a warmonger. And if anyone demands education, NEVER!!

If an AI demanded Education from me while the Lib race was still on I would 95% of the time give it to them.

The only time I usually refuse demands is late game where my power is at parity.

Thanks for the replies everyone.

The reason I play the large map with 12 civs is I just find it more fun with more civilizations to interact with (aka them asking for stuff and me giving in to their demands). I'd play a huge map with 18 civs but the game starts to slow down around mid game.

I never knew or even thought about the AI including my beakers researched into a tech when we trade until I read it in a thread a few hours ago. Until now I was researching Metal Casting right after Writing, for the explicit purpose of the fact that I could get Alphabet for it when I couldn't do it with Aesthetics. I always got there before the AIs did, at least on Immortal. But Atheistic + Research a few turns into Alaphet sounds superior.

I also never knew Barracks and Walls counted in the power graph. Thank you for that information.

So the point of Archery is more so for the barbarians (that aren't a huge threat when im surrounded by AIs) then anything else? My thinking was always, if im going to build such a limited military because of Unit Cost, I might as well build Archers instead of warriors but I supposed its debatable if Archery is needed so quickly when the AI is crushing all the barbarians for me.

I'll check out the thread provided from silverbullet. Thanks again everyone.

Right now I'm flip-flopping between two leaders in particular: Suryarmen II and Zara Yaqob.

maybe try hatty for the 1st attempts? or anyway, a stronger leader then surry... but ok, it's a matter of taste I suppose.

One quick question off the bat: Will the AI take into account the fact that I've already researched some of a tech when we trade? IE: Can I get tech that costs more Beakers off the AI for a lesser tech if I do some research into it?

honestly you should pretty much know by heart how much to invest in alpha in order to trade aest for it and things like that :p

So the game starts and the first thing I build is a worker. I don't suppose that building a scout or a warrior would be a better alternative?

you're playing creative for a reason - that is to landblock whenever possible. Albeit pangea ain't too landblock friendly, still, on some starts, with some mountain ranges and a well placed lake here and there, it's doable... for that you need info. Depending on location, another scouter(warrior if lotsa forests/jungle and str 2 animals, scout if far south/north and wolves and no jungle) can be an option too. Obviously, it depends on speed too - I'm playing marathon, so, scouting is easier, but more archers are needed...

Most of the time I end up with around 3-4 cities before being completely boxed in my the AI. Is this normal for this setup?

either you bulb philo and trade it right/left and center, start 3 wars and get on tech parity - that's pangea for you, or you play something else where you could get more then 3-4 cities :p

seriously speaking 3-4 ain't grand, but sometimes you have to do with 5-6 till 1st war; that'd be the initial 3-4 plus 1-2 squeezed.

My next tech is BW, then the Wheel, then Pottery, then Writing, then Aesthetics. I trade it around to try and get some back techs. What should be my next tech? I'm thinking the best choices would be Literature or Metal Casting so i can trade it to the AI's?

way too many fixed points in your strategy :p

look at the map, look at the neighbors....

The only way for me to be the first one to build the wonder is to monopolize the tech. So in order to build the wonder I have to take the diplomacy hit. So I usually just trade the tech around. So I suppose my question is this, do you guys usually build many wonders? What are some wonders that are excellent enough to try hard and get despite whatever downsides come with it?

ais get no discount for wonder building; so... with 1-2 chops and the assorted resource... 1-2 chops to compensate for probably a crappier city then the ai has. Generally, try to aim for wonder only when you have/can trade the assorted resource(glh is obviously the exception, but then, with proper scouting, you should know the maps when the lighthouse is vital - and well, pangea ain't one of them).

Glib if I have marble(not that "if you have marble, you must build it", but generally can be considered); if I can squeeze in a parth, especially if not philo, I don't mind that one either. Taj too eventually.
UoS more often then not with stone; even more if I'm spiritual(and usually I am :p). Mids once in a blue moon... but then, it depends on neighbors too - if you have 4 guys with fav. civic. hr, it won't be good to be the only guy they're cautious with for the next 2k years... Plus mids are too costly on pangea imho.
Oracle if seriously boxed in(chopped, probably take mc out of it) - at 16 culture after 1k years will ensure you'll have some space....
Sometimes TGW for gspy infiltration(chopped again).
But generally I found it better to borrow them from the ais.

ps. - regarding power graph, there's a deity guide by snaaty... somewhere, and, from memory(it's a thread with power graph for everything too, was somethin' like 2k power for a wall, 2k? for an archer, 2k also for a barracks, the tgw had a good power too and well... the wall doesn't exactly eat gold, plus, if you're declared at that time, you're toast anyway). Anyway, you should search the strategy section I think; or use the search for power value of units.

ps2 - and regarding military, nothing compares to upgrading your initial warrior to mech inf. while you wait for your ship to hit alpha :p Build some military at the start to not fall behind too much till you have some time to do some suck up on the ais. After that... when you declare/are about to be declared. If you're safe diplo wise, trade iron/bronze and build a buncha warriors as garnison for a hr/bureau capitol - cheaper hammer wise and warriors or swords, you'll still be miles behind the ai...

If an AI demanded Education from me while the Lib race was still on I would 95% of the time give it to them.

The only time I usually refuse demands is late game where my power is at parity.

IMO refusing war demands is often prudent also!

I always found archery to be useful, its the second thing i research. At 2700 B.C. a wave of at least five (once i got ten) barbarians hits my capital in one turn. After this invasion they usually begin settling every open square, so getting archery by about turn 100 (marathon) was key for me. Around that time my capital grew to size 5 and i began to build about 5 archers to fogbust my future city sites. I usualy will grab one filler tech, grab archery, grab bronze working, then pottery before my economy collapses. I know noone's mentioned it yet, but my last game I went on strike with just 4 cities and pottery 150 turns away. Another thing is coastal cities can aid in commerce if you have fishing, especially with a financial leader. Also, the Oracle is usually possible (~1500 B.C.), but I'd rather get an extra city up.

Id be interested in seeing a game where someone made it without archery, or REX'd before growing their capital though (i supposed non-stacked is to much to ask for).

You can make it without archery in many games. A case is where you are Darius of Persia and you research AH from the getgo and find horses directly in your BFC. Archery would be a skip in most cases like that.

And those immortals are nice fogbusters as well.

EDIT: This is even safer if you have gone worker first

^agreed, just fogbust with some warriors once archers appear there's time to research archery in time. But it can be prudent to research hunting for this reason (and even a few turns into archery if the map seems evil) if you don't find early copper/horses the time to research both hunting/archery might be too long on deity.

In that case you might pray that the other AI's are doing the fogbusting for you. :p

^agreed, just fogbust with some warriors once archers appear there's time to research archery in time. But it can be prudent to research hunting for this reason (and even a few turns into archery if the map seems evil) if you don't find early copper/horses the time to research both hunting/archery might be too long on deity.

It is. On marathon you have about 95 turns which is about 3-4 technologies before swarms start coming in. You also need to build the actual archer itself, so if you dont have hunting, you get one free tech before you gotta start down it. If you don't have mining, researching bronze working and hunting will leave you with fortified warriors in your capital with all your improvements gone. Of course if you don't mind every square in your capital being razed you can just use warriors till you get copper/horse (half will probably die though even siting in forests so build alot). I personally had to many spearmen and later axemen coming before I finished: 1.) researching BW/AH and Wheel, 2.) building a settler+escort, 3.) having the worker connect everything (you dont have many early game), and 4.) building the units themselves. Youre also limited in how far you can stretch to grab a strategic resource on Deity, so i think about 40% of my games, I don't get nothin till iron working (I almost always have iron near). I know you can reload starts or use the worldbuilder and all that and write it of as a Deity expense, but if you can only win on a good start, you might as well just play immortal...

Are there any game series (non-stacked ;) ) where people play deity on a regular basis? I don't wanna waste time tryin to do the impossible. Some actual record of people playing at this level regularly would be a lil encouragement.