As far as I know, the vanilla game engine supports up to 18 civs. So when I created the leaderhead/civs, I made 18. There are a few things I would like to do, that would be easier if there were fewer LH/civ. In particular, we should make a set of UU; and there have been a number of suggestions for themed city names to replace the vanilla ones. If I have to remove the creative trait, that would help too.

Can anybody think of a downside to reducing the number of LH/civ to 12? It still enables a huge game with 11 players.

I would pick the six most medieval looking leaderheads and remove them, pick the six least flavorful names and civs and remove them. Then we could maybe come up with 12 related UU. 12 sets of themed city names seems much easier than 18.

I can mix and match the backgrounds, but I'd probably remove the leaderhead for Ares, Keith, Max, Monty, Peter and Tinker. I found a different LH for Shiro for 0.7, otherwise he'd be on the list too.

Hmmm. I like to have more leaders, than necessary for one game - avoids meeting the same guys in every single game. So from the point of view of flavour the more the better.

However, i see how it would be easier to implement some features with less civs, so i will not "object" to a reduction.

-----

Note: A possibility could be reduce the number of civs to - say 12 - but give each civ 2 leaders. This acomplisches: Less UU/UB needed. However this would actrually increase the number of leaderhead-art needed...

And another Note: Have you seen this Guy. I made him a while ago without any real reason in mind, but he does not look medieval, and might fit the setting. The Sherif Badge and maybe the Hat (i dont remeber myself if i gave him a scull-cap :blush:) can be removed:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=9245
http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads/wyattearp_preview_0qg.jpg

My personal feeling is that we'd be better off we about eight leaders and adding a lot of falvour to them, then slowly increasing the leader count.

My personal feeling is that we'd be better off we about eight leaders and adding a lot of falvour to them, then slowly increasing the leader count.

I am not sure what happens if you try a huge (11 player => 10 AI) game with 8 leaders. Probably something bad. I agree adding a lot of flavor is the right approach, but I think we may need 12 rather than 8. I personally use huge games with AIAutoPlay to get statistics on what the AI does.

I play with 9 AI, so i need at lest that many :lol:
Overall thinking about it more - a reduction in number for improved quality is probably a good idea - it might even result in attracting more artist to the project.

For Autoplay experiments you could still use more than for the releases - those do not really need art :)

Possible leader background:

....

When she was she had seen seven years, the shaman sent for Durrgim Gugi.

“Durrgim,” he told her, “it is time that you awaken your spirit, for it has been in the dreamlands far too long and now it is time to learn the truth about yourself.” Seizing the young girl by her hand he pressed her face close the fire.

“What do you see, child?”

“I see the flames, dancing with one another. I see the smoke, wrapping around the fire. The smoke is cold and dark and full of evil. It wants to extinguish the fire which gave it life, for it jealous of the heat. I see a shadow-figure running swiftly through the embers. Each time the flames die down, the figure stokes them once more. It laughs and jumps and sings. The smoke cannot touch the figure, although it would clearly wish to destroy it.”

“And what shape is this figure?”

“It has the tail of the white rat and the form of a fruit bat.”

“Then it is as I feared, and I must speak the words of sorrow for what must happen next.”

Durrgim looked up into the old man’s eyes, but the shaman had seized a log from the ground. With a sharp cry, he struck her once on the head. As the dreamlands enveloped her, Durrgim heard the wodwose apologise.

* * *

For the next twenty years Durrgim only knew the cold, hard darkness of a cave, but she learnt much of the world around her. Her ancestors told her all the stories: Weedah the mocking bird and Mullyan the eagle-hawk, Bahloo the moon and Mayrah the wind that blows away the winter. Each day her ancestors would request she pass into the dreamlands, so that they could watch over her. Each day she dutifully obeyed, and when she awoke there would be food to eat and water to drink.

Then one day her ancestors told her that the Final Dream was coming. It was a time when she must bring the Awakening, for the serpent was trying to choke the land once more and she was needed. Durrgim did not understand, but the ancestors told her to prepare for the Final Dream. Then a great noise filled the air, leaving a silence more still than any Durrgim had known in its wake and there was the faintest shaft of light, beckoning Durrgim to follow.

This new dream was a beautiful. Such colours, such smells, such tastes and sensations. Durrgim finally understood the prophecy. Only one who knows the depths of the darkness can truly know the light.

....

This leader should represent aboriginal belief mixed with an optimism that borders on the naive. Although everyone else sees what they have lost in the fallen world, durrgim sees only the light, the potential and the hope, this is what draws people to her and makes her a leader.

I mentioned reducing the number of leaders in another thread, and I highly recommend it. If there are less leaders than are slots on the map, there will just be multiple civilizations with that leader.

I reviewed the 3D art. I think Tinker and Ares are not that bad - definitely the more unique ones (Like in "Not looking lika a obvious Vanilla reskin").

I dont like the new Shiro head. It looked ok i static, but on the animated LH the Samurai mask is to obviously just painted on the face.
Also Debbie LH is quite glitched.

I mentioned reducing the number of leaders in another thread, and I highly recommend it. If there are less leaders than are slots on the map, there will just be multiple civilizations with that leader.Having multiple instances of the same Leader (including flag color, city list and the UU - if there are any) would be a atrocity no gameplay improvement can fix.

I'd say less tribes (civs), and if good enough art is available a second leader for (some of) the civs. Gives a bit more variation in gameplay for those of us who don't use the unrestricted leaders option.

I tried an experiment last night with reducing the number of leaders, and independently reducing the number of civs. It is definitely odd ("atrocity" may be too strong :-) to play a game with 3 Maxes, 4 Micks and 2 Stevies. But at least there is no game error.

Let us aim for 12, rather than aiming for 8.

Regarding the current leaderheads, let me point any newcomers to my summary page with graphics at this link (http://jendaveallen.com/fury-road/leaderheads) and the statistics at this link (http://jendaveallen.com/fury-road/leaderheads/statistics.htm).

What I need is 12 each of:

* LH character graphics
* background graphic (I think I have enough for 12)
* flag (either vanilla, or new graphics)
* character concept
* good first city name
* 20 other city names

I will update the statistics page with a thumbnail and the additional fields, and then keep it up to date as we add more details.

On LH graphics, there is ongoing debate about 3D vs 2D. For myself, I don't have any way to create 2D character art; so I would prefer to stick with the 3D LH. I will keep trying with the LH development community to make some more post-apocalyptic LH. This time around, I will try a couple of very specific requests instead of general, and also try PM'ing recent LH authors.

@refar, on the new Shiro, at least he is more post-apo themed than the previous. I took the paint job on the face to be makeup, rather than a mask, so I expected it to move with the face. The big problem with Ares, in particular, is that gold and purple armor looks highly Roman and not post-apo theme. If the armor was reskinned to look post-apo, I agree the anim and the rest is good.

12 Sounds like a good number.

Also GeoModders input - 12 Civs and adding more art if avaiable sounds good.

-----

I am not sure if you want LH art in the New Art thread or here. I think here makes some sense.

You are might be right on shiro - i played with static art and kind of took the face for a samurai mask, so seeing the make up went agains my expectation.

I also browsed a bit...

I would Suggest using this one from Amra instead of Boadica Graphic. I think he look more "modern" and hence closer to post apocalyptic.
Assuming Monthy Gone/Replaced as well this would leave us with no single unchanged Vanilla Face.
The Hat can go away if you want it too.
http://img386.imageshack.us/img386/5250/clipboard01fr7.jpg

Ekmek released a few new LH's that could be of use:
Hector might Replace Ares - the face is mor eunique, the armor less roman.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads/civ4screenshot0022_fDZ.jpg
http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=9975

I gave a try to a "Generic Post-Apo Guy". Went indeed unexpected fast, as i was not bound by any Original Face to Match. Of course the helmet made it easier... Unfortunately not everyone can wear a helmet...
I think he could replace ironhead.

The Model is done, Skinning - obviously - need some work yet.
http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/535/58335229bk8.jpg

Great, let me branch a "leaderhead art" thread.

Let's try to put new leaderhead graphics discussion into this other thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=283435), and keep discussion of names, backgrounds, etc here.

I have combined the statistics and the images into a single Excel file:

http://jendaveallen.com/fury-road/leaderheads/statistics.xls

Any Mac people out there, if you can't read it, let me know and we will work something out.

OK, another background for another leader, ripped straight off of Diamond Dogs, but heck the intro ripped off Rod Stewart anyway, so I guess it's a backhanded compliment... I'll let you have fun spotting all the references:

*****

Man, we must’ve smoked some freaky . .. .. .. . that night. It’s still fuzzy in my head. Only Jack could have held a concert in that bunker on his estate at the end of the world. Grey concrete and post-industrial chic meshed with bright colours and freaky graffiti and silks and cushions like a harem. He calls it Usher. He flings his doors open and tells everyone to come. And they do. It’s weird though cos Jack’s got his own standards. You, you, not you, you with the come to bed eyes, especially you! Some jerk turns up dressed in black like a funeral and Jack chucks him out.

“This aint no wake,” goes Jack “I’m not at home to the miseries. I'm going down banging.” Always face the curtain with a smile. So it goes.

And the guests? It must have been every bozo from here to here to New Mexico. That Thai woman constantly puffing her cigarette. Well I guess she wasn’t going to have worry about lung cancer. Some failed general from Columbia turns up with the finest grade A coke. He’s handing it out on trays on top of dwarves and eunuchs, for chrissakes. Some scientist with a hairdo like Einstein discussing Wittgenstein with a German girl who looks like she’s stuck in the eighties. There’s a cop bent down at the feet of a priest. I don’t even want to say what they were up to but the bloke in the corner almost threw up over them.

“Screw it,” goes Jack, “you can’t take it with you.” So it goes.

And Jack picks up an umbrella and rings a large gong like at the start of those old movies and out comes all this wine and food. Caviar and quails eggs and Beaujolais; all that stuff you saw at those celebrity weddings in glossy magazines, only it’s real and it’s all for us.

“1961 Margaux,” goes Jack and he pulls out the cork with his teeth and spits it on the floor. Then he shakes up the bottle and turns it upside down and opens his mouth and guzzles down everything that fits in his throat. So it goes.

There’s golden drapes nearby and Jack rubs his hands down them provocatively and starts singing. It all opulence and extravagance and no-ones bothered any more. Before long everyone’s on the floor, throwing cushions at one another. There’s feather flying here and there and young lovers are pulling off their clothes and letting all their flesh hang out. Must have been like Roman times. The band just keeps on playing. They’re all dressed up like some gig on the Titanic.

“Party like it’s nineteen-ninety-nine,” goes Jack, conducting a band using an... unorthodox... baton. So it goes.

And then there’s an alarm bell and warnings and beeps and buzzes, and this great metal door starts closing over the entrance hall, grinding and thunking as it goes, and Jack puts on a mask and tells us that Red Death is about to arrive and wouldn’t we like to see the whore of Babylon before the end and a telly comes on showing the world in flames and he leads us in a chant.

“Leonard Bernstein! Leonard Bernstein! Leonard Bernstein!” So it goes.

And we all brace for the impact, clutching the ones we love the most. Only it don’t work that way. Seems whoever built Usher had a sick sense of humour, cos it didn’t fall after all. It stands right up to the world and blow a raspberry in it’s face, but we’re all to wasted to care.

And the next day we’ve got the hangover from hell. But it was worth it. So it goes.

*****

Image: http://www.solarnavigator.net/music/music_images/Ziggystardust.jpg

Basic concept: An eccentric Rock Star who ends up leading a tribe of survivors who were in his bunker at the time of the Scourge. Should be relatively unpredictable, ideally having Creative and Aggressive traits. All his comments in the diplomacy screens should be lines from rock songs (e.g. "War? Huh? What is it good for?" or "Help me if you can I'm feeling down")

Possible City Names: Graceland, Neverland, Bohemia, Metropolis, Purple Love Palace, Birdland, Highway 61....

OK, another background for another leader, ripped straight off of Diamond Dogs[...]
Basic concept: An eccentric Rock Star who ends up leading a tribe of survivors who were in his bunker at the time of the Scourge. Should be relatively unpredictable, ideally having Creative and Aggressive traits.[...]
Possible City Names: Graceland, Neverland, Bohemia, Metropolis, Purple Love Palace, Birdland, Highway 61....

I like it. Can you push it up to 20 city names? Which is the right *capitol* name that will always be the first city? I don't have a good way to get custom LH art, either 2D or 3D, but could the concept work with any of the LH I already have (Aelwyn ?? gender changes in the text (possibly :-)) Flag? UU?

The Capital is Usher (as in "Fall of the house of...") The city names are taken from rock stars homes or rock songs. Queen own the rights to the film "Metropolis", so that also fits right in.

So following that tack:

1. Usher
2. Graceland
3. Neverland
4. Bohemia
5. Metropolis
6. Jungleland
7. Strawberry Fields
8. Penny Lane
9. Birdland
10. Highway 61
11. Route 66
12. Stardust
13. Altamont
14. Union City
15. The Country House
16. Wonderwall
17. Waterloo
18. Misty Mountain
19. Street Spirit
20. Hawkmoon 269

Flag: Something vivid, lurid and bright.
UU: Maybe some kind of sonic artillery weapon powered by an electric guitar.

Cool leaderhead Refar! :goodjob:

I realize that this mod is mostly a "Mad Max" mod, but one take on the leaders is that they could be the leaders of factions as the world went to hell.

For example, in Alpha Centauri, we had factions on the UN starship that left Earth. Contact with Earth was lost. So maybe you could use some of those factions from AC to represent the part of those factions that couldn't fit on the UNS Unity and since they were very organized to get their people on the ship, when things went from bad to Apocalyptic, they survived.

I'm thinking you'd be able to use:
1) The Gaians: They'd obviously want to fix the planet and instead of affinity for Planet life, they might be able to tame mutants and the like the same way Hunters, Rangers do in FfH.
2) Morgan Industries: I would think they would be like "Water & Power" in the movie Tank Girl.
3) The Human Hive: I think these guys are pretty much like they'd be in AC.
4) Spartan Federation: Obviously we'd have the survivalist. They'd start out with maybe a heavier vehicle.
5) The Lord's Believers: I've said in many of my posts that I think there should be a civic class that represents a theme for the type of tech the Civ will use. So regardless of your vision, which tech will you use? While the Gaians would use something bio/planet related, I would think the Lord's Believers would be Luddite, hate technology and want to cleanse the planet of the old ways and return things to a 'simpler time'. Like in AC, they'd have lots of cheap, low tech units and crusade like a banshee!
6) The University: Obviously a group of scientists working out of some secret base. I'd think they'd start with some neat stuff but would get a penalty for growth and the like because these are nerdy scientists and now the world if very messy. (I might have to dirty my hands! HORRORS!)
7) The Nautilus Pirates: I can see these, especially if you change the map to have more water (more on that in a different forum) and allow for ships.

The other Civs from AC or AC:AC might not work as well. However, depending how 'sci-fi' you wanted to go, the Planet Consciousness might be changed to some sort of mutant group where the leader is a mutant with powers and they would have mutatate flavored units.

What I need is 12 each of:

* flag (either vanilla, or new graphics)

There are a few flag-packs released.

The most recent ne by Dvalin:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=283648

Who also anounced in his thread to make custom ones on request :mischief:
Perhaps he could help producing the needed flags and also coosing really different colors - having limited it to 12 civs, maybe we will be able to avoid having 3 Pink ones in every single game. (Something that is bugging me on Unmodded civ as well...)

I think "Semi-fictive" flags migh be best - it is likely the survivors will try to keep some of the pre-war symbols, adapting them for they needs.

I think "Semi-fictive" flags migh be best - it is likely the survivors will try to keep some of the pre-war symbols, adapting them for they needs.

A good site for this is: http://flagspot.net/flags/

What I like, is they have an entire section of fictional flags by book, film and the like. I really like the page (http://flagspot.net/flags/fic-nazi.html) that shows all the variants of Nazi flags. (I kicked myself for not catching that 'RoboCop' OCP corp was a Nazi variant flag.

Can anybody think of a downside to reducing the number of LH/civ to 12? It still enables a huge game with 11 players.Note: A possibility could be reduce the number of civs to - say 12 - but give each civ 2 leaders. This acomplisches: Less UU/UB needed. However this would actrually increase the number of leaderhead-art needed...Reducing the number of leaders could have the side effect of turning off some folks from playing your mod. I say this based upon anecdotal evidence from reading the main GD forum. Before BTS there were a number of complaints about not having enough leaders. And there seem to be many threads suggesting new leaders. I would probably go with Refar's suggestion of reducing the number of civs rather than the number of leaders.

And another Note: Have you seen this Guy. I made him a while ago without any real reason in mind, but he does not look medieval, and might fit the setting. The Sherif Badge and maybe the Hat (i dont remeber myself if i gave him a scull-cap :blush:) can be removed:I like the sheriff! He looks totally original rather than an existing leader with a different hat. I think you ought to keep him. Maybe give him a General Patton type helmet and make his clothes a bit worn. I could definitely see a "sheriff" running a post-apocalyptic civilization.

Not sure if you have gotten a Great Protector unit yet, if not give yourself one in WB. The art already represents a sheriff. I am not quite sure who created the unit art, but I snagged it from NecroCristi.

Creating civs is trivial, just a few lines of XML. A custom flag is nice but not required. Coming up with UU's is a little work. But the *huge* amount of work, and the stumbling block for me right now, is getting themed LH art. See the adjacent LH art thread for more details.

I am curious why reducing the LH count would reduce interest in the game?

Right now, there are 18 LH with very little flavor/customization: all default city names, no background, etc. My goal was to add more flavor, and doing that for 12 LH is a much less intimidating task than 18. Also this way I could get rid of the least post-apocalyptic-looking LH.

Maybe I should just attack adding flavor to the LH one by one, so that in the first release there will be 2-3 nice flavored LH and 15-16 which are very generic, rather than upgrading all of them at once.

I am curious why reducing the LH count would reduce interest in the game?Just anecdotal supposition on my part. I play standard maps, so 12 vs 18 doesn't really matter that much to me personally.

Right now, there are 18 LH with very little flavor/customization: all default city names, no background, etc. My goal was to add more flavor, and doing that for 12 LH is a much less intimidating task than 18.It seems to me that, other than LH backgrounds, most of that work is related to the civs rather than the leaders. Aren't city names, UU's, etc. all added at the civ level and not the leader? Seems to me you could accomplish both goals by implementing Refar's suggestion of multiple leaders per civ. Maybe 18 leaders in 12 different civs? :dunno: And my guess is most folks wouldn't notice if you doubled up on LH backgrounds for some of the leaders.

Just anecdotal supposition on my part. I play standard maps, so 12 vs 18 doesn't really matter that much to me personally.

It seems to me that, other than LH backgrounds, most of that work is related to the civs rather than the leaders. Aren't city names, UU's, etc. all added at the civ level and not the leader? Seems to me you could accomplish both goals by implementing Refar's suggestion of multiple leaders per civ. Maybe 18 leaders in 12 different civs? :dunno: And my guess is most folks wouldn't notice if you doubled up on LH backgrounds for some of the leaders.

You are correct that city names go with the civ. But still, the limit is the number of good LH foregrounds.

Another background. This one represents a governmental response to the Scourge.

******

The government had a plan; governments always do. This one went right the way back to the 1950’s. All across the country secret bunkers had been created. A civil servant with an overabundance of imagination and a penchant for reading espionage thrillers had decided to name them all after London Underground stations. As the crisis grew in tension, key individuals were identified and discretely alerted. Upon receiving a certain message they were to stop whatever they were doing and immediately head for the nearest Underground Station. They called the plan Duck and Cover.

When the warning sirens wailed and the missiles flew overhead, the men from the ministers dutifully dispensed with their plans for the day and headed to their cars. Their drivers knew the drill. In the dark times ahead, men would need structure, leadership and order. Without these things the dark beast at the heart of every man would be revealed, only one step up from the wolf.

And so, whilst the people died in the sleep, the ministers were safely tucked up in their beds. When the polluted rains burnt the skins of thousands, the politicians would be taking their early morning shower. Against a backdrop of terror, they would hold committees and discuss contingencies plans.

* * *

Christopher Lehman scanned the radio. It had been four days now. Euston was silent, Waterloo no more than hiss, he’d made brief contact with Victoria only to hear the gunfire and the screams. Most haunting of all was Piccadilly Circus, a recorded message from the Book of Lamentations, over and over and over...

The junior sub-minister for East Asian trade was the only one left to supply structure, leadership and order.

******

Leader: Christopher Lehman
Traits: Organised, Industrious
Demeanour: A little arrogant as he considers himself the true choice of the people.

Cities:

1. Charring Cross
2. Aldgate
3. Mornington Crescent
4. Barking
5. Goodge Street
6. Cockfosters
7. Southfields
8. Tooting Bec
9. Vauxhall
10. Wood Green
11. Seven Sisters
12. Kings Cross
13. Elephant and Castle
14. Kew Gardens
15. Ruislip Manor
16. Limehouse
17. Oxford Circus
18. Pimlico
19. Queen's Park
20. Northolt

Flag: Use the official Australia flag
UU: Government Diplomat - missionary units should that gets Mobilty for free.

I like it. I assume you watch the new Battlestar Galactica series, very similar. President Roslin was the secretary of education. Are the city names all places in Sydney? The ones I recognize also seem to be in London. I'd probably use the existing Chen leaderhead with same or some other background.

Nope, they're all London tube stations. It fits in with the storyline and has a vaguely apocalyptic feel to it. And, yes, BSG was an influence.

I have put Christopher into the game with civ name "New Australia". I put Halloween Jack into the game, although I did a gender change and put it on Aelwyn. She was the closest I had to a rock star looking LH.

It makes a bigger difference than I thought. I liked seeing non-vanilla city names. I will try writing some backgrounds, more at the "Christopher" word count than the "Halloween" wordcount however :-)

Thanks! Good job! More please.

I found an Australia flag available. I didn't change the Celtic flag, but I haven't spent much time looking through the available flags yet. I was a little disappointed to learn (everybody else probably knew) that civ flags are two color.

It helps to have a civilization name.

Also, I missed out asking for a "first contact quote". As far as I can tell, in vanilla, the vast majority of custom quotes happen at first contact, and very few elsewhere. In version 0.5, I think, or earlier, I took all the existing first contact quotes and just stripped out the leader requirement. There are some very recognizable quotes, like the George Washington one, or the Isabella one ("CLOSER contact, if you know what I mean"). These are selected randomly across all LH today, which can lead to some funny results.
As I add in new LH, having one good FC quote would help.

I definitely seen more than 2 color flags in mods. I have no idea gow it is achieved tho.

Can you give an example of a mod with flags with > 2 colors in the game (not buttons)? I can probably figure out how it works from an example.

Some civs in the New Civilizations database show tricolore flacs in screenshots.

Strategyonly's Mexico and America for example.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=9994
http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=8894

I am thinking that it is just a question of using a full color .dds (full white alpha, no transparency) instead of those decall .dds that are pllying TC to a flag.
I never took a close look at them however, so i might be wrong.

I haven't tried it yet, but after reading the forum it looks simple. Make a 60x90 full color graphic with no transparency, save as 128x128 DDS, and set bWhiteFlag in the artdefines file. I'll try with a full-color Australia flag first.

It was simple. I have a full color Australia flag in the game.

One type I did notice was lacking was a mutated type of leader, such as Harold from the fallout series.
I think a ghoul type civ would be interesting
I would think it would need an additional bonus made for them though so they could have radiation without problems from it.
I think also the misspelled large city names I saw in another thread would fit this type of civ well.

I may add Ghouls from fallout. Both ghouls and deathclaws "should be" intelligent. I was trying to think of a way to have them be minor civilizations, or something, but I haven't found a good way to do it. I don't want to make either of them into playable civs. I think that would be too hard to play-balance.

I'm not sure of the best way to fit in the mis-spelled city names. I thought it would work well. But, this is only 20 years after the "Scourge" nuclear war, so I don't think names would get mis-spelled. There should be some more discussion about sets of city names in this new thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=284390).

Well you could set them as non-playable in the xml (the mutant civs that is). That way you could have those minor civs that only the AI can play.


I would like to see a minor civ that has adopted some cybernetics or were part of cybernetic experiments before the war. They could use bunker protected equipment (resource) provided by their palace to upgrade weaker units to different stages of cyborgs.

I've never understood too much about where minor civs come from. I believe that the first step is a barb city. Then, there is just some random chance that a barb city will "advance" to a minor civ. Is that right? I would like to reflect that there are really three different races (human, ghoul, deathclaw) which would have different units. I don't know, but I don't think there is a way to have different minor civs with different units. At least the base warrior would have to be a UU for each civ. The deathclaws could have additional units, like an all-white Ancient Deathclaw (STR 20, -50% against vehicles? Run away!)

Well the way Kael did it for FFH was that the minor civ would be an Actual Civ, just only playable by the AI. I think the Illians are the only one left at the moment waiting for the Ice Phase. They would show up randomly like any other civ or chosen to play against by the human. Barbarians civs would still spawn as usual, so I see what you are saying. When I think of a minor civ I think of a civ that the AI can play and can win the game with, but a major civ is one that the human can play. (<--- lesson on how to kill grammar)

I haven't played FFH so I don't know the details of the Ilians. There are some tags in the civ XML files related to minor civs, but if I understand what you said the Ilians don't use that flag. Instead they use something like "Playable 0 / AIPlayable 1" in the civinfos file. Is that right? That's actually a really interesting idea. It would be a full strength civ but with a set of unique units. It might or might not show up in any game.

Is there any way for the player to set up a game which explicitly excludes this type of race for whatever reason? Of course you can edit the xml to put AIPlayable 0, but I meant is there an option or something to exclude them? It would be hard to play-balance multiple configurations of such races. I don't think there is any way to make them "less likely" to be chosen by the random game setup either.

I know seZereth did some zombie art for the NecroCristi mod, and there are some screenshots from the old Fallout games for character art. This might be the right way to use those. Thanks!

yes that is what I was talking about. You may want to check out FFH if anything to see what Kael and co have done with the options menus. They have it set up so you can exclude certain heros, religions, play styles, etc., and IIRC when "ICE" phase sets in they will be able to set certain scenarios via that route (these option may be hidden from players). So I am sure there is a way to program the ability to exclude certain races by that. These guys are not stingy with their code work and freely let us fool with the wheel they have already invented...

Someday I will have to set aside a big chunk of time to learn FFH and get good at it. People keep using it as an example of different things.

Me too. I've looked at it, but I've never played a proper game. It looks fantastic though.

yea just the download (if you dont have hi speed) will eat up a good day.

About minor civs: Ryhs and Fall of civillization has somthing like this. The independent civ. A AI civ with war/peace diplomacy. Is that what you were looking for?

About minor civs: Ryhs and Fall of civillization has somthing like this. The independent civ. A AI civ with war/peace diplomacy. Is that what you were looking for?

Yes, I think the idea is that any civ can be marked in the xml as "not playable by humans". These are full-strength civs that can only be played by the AI. I have this on the list for someday, since it would require a lot of unit art to make ghoul and deathclaw variant units.