So, I'm kind of partial to the Americans, just because I like my own country. But I must say I am *so* disappointed with the weakness of the Navy SEAL in Civ IV.

I mean, it *sounds* cool, but in all of my battle tests, it just isn't worth fielding.

I wondered if anyone has modded or tested improvements to this UU? I thought maybe it should have access to the City Raider promotion line. That would make it pretty useful.

Alternatively, it could come with a high chance of withdrawl to simulate that Navy SEAL's are supposed to be good at hit-and-fade operations.

Or even more interesting, you could have SEAL's start with one extra promotion (player's choice) to represent that SEAL's are supposed to be some of the most elite soldiers in the American armed forces.

So, I suppose I'm just whining. Maybe I don't know how to use them right? Anyone else use them well? What promotions are good choices for them?

Thanks,

-- SJN

I love the NavySEAL personally. I had one game I believe on Prince difficulty a year or so ago where I made good use of them, had the pentagon, west point in one city, red cross in another, and i believe 4 generals in each of those cities, possibly more, can't really remember. I also had Theocracy & Vassalage, so I was pumping out some very deadly NavySEALs. Probably the only thing better than a NavySEAL is a marine owned by Boudica under the same circumstances... If I remember right, you would get more upgrades.

Unfortunately for me though, I haven't been able to play as Boudica to the point where I could build marines. Also, I believe in that game I mentioned, she was the only computer that gave me any real trouble.

3.17 got rid of withdrawal while attacking from ships (which is what SEALs are made to do). The lack of siege as well makes marines/SEALS critical for naval assaults.

Free march is a very solid promotion, especially since you have fast moving transports moving them around you can get by with fewer SEALS that marines since your forces won't need to wait to heal before attacking the next city.

You will want to be using fighters to soften up targets so, as long as you are facing no better than infantry defenders, drill works quite well. Combat is good as well since minimizing damage is less important with the free march. You'll want a mix of both and it depends on what you expect for opposition.

I could see both giving a free combat promotion (I or II depending on aggressive) but also increasing the cost. Basically making them elite both in capability and in cost.

A regular marine would either need combat IV OR medic I to even get access to the march promotion. Not sure, even with Red Cross, if the charismatic bonus outweighs the free march (i.e., what XP would your Red Cross and Non-Red Cross cities need to be building charismatic units in order to build the equivalent of a charismatic and non-charismatic SEAL - factoring in aggressive as well). Now, toss in Lincoln who gets the best of both worlds (minus the aggressive).

I love the NavySEAL personally. I had one game I believe on Prince difficulty a year or so ago where I made good use of them, had the pentagon, west point in one city, red cross in another, and i believe 4 generals in each of those cities, possibly more, can't really remember. I also had Theocracy & Vassalage, so I was pumping out some very deadly NavySEALs. Probably the only thing better than a NavySEAL is a marine owned by Boudica under the same circumstances... If I remember right, you would get more upgrades.

Unfortunately for me though, I haven't been able to play as Boudica to the point where I could build marines. Also, I believe in that game I mentioned, she was the only computer that gave me any real trouble.

played with unrestricted leaders with a US Boudica and indeed, the seals rocked even more

Seals are pretty powerful indeed, free march is perfect for my industrial / modern tactics.
I also love the seal model, and because i play England, and dont have access to SEAL's, i decided to make a new unit.

In combination with the lack of a late-modern era infantry unit, I decided to create the Special Ops, str 28, 1 move, starts with march and tactics (30% withrawal chance).
They are also invisible until attacking, and can perform spy missions like sabotage improvement (but they pay cash, not espionage points). They are also classified as recon units, but they can attack, and can NOT capture cities.

There are several other minor features with them aswell, but im testing them in a game now, to make sure the AI knows how to handle them, and that they are not overpowered.

Back on topic, id kill to be able to use Seals as they already are - but with england. I tend to promote the marines to combat 3 + medic 1 and march from my redcross+westpoint city anyway. Having march for free would mean one step closer to commando.

they(seals) get +2 1st strikes and march somehow they're sort of like samurais and oromo warriors who get 3 1st strikes.

Ok, so SEALs seem to be awesome by everybody else's experience. So I must not get it.

I was launching SEALs against infantry with 3CG without much success. I tried to find the webpage that had an odds calculator, but I couldn't. Suggestions for what promotions to give SEALs when going up against 3CG infantry? What gives me my best odds?

-- SJN

use arti with your attack

Ok, so SEALs seem to be awesome by everybody else's experience. So I must not get it.

I was launching SEALs against infantry with 3CG without much success. I tried to find the webpage that had an odds calculator, but I couldn't. Suggestions for what promotions to give SEALs when going up against 3CG infantry? What gives me my best odds?

-- SJN

Here is where studying history comes in useful. Unlike earlier ages, modern warfare almost always requires aerial bombardment.

Here is where studying history comes in useful. Unlike earlier ages, modern warfare almost always requires aerial bombardment.

No kidding... really? I had never heard of such a thing. You mean you can use airplanes to attack ground targets? Well that's way better than what I've been doing. I've been using them for air-shows to increase my civ's happiness. Thank goodness the civ fanatics boards are blessed with such historians to help the rest of us.

In all seriousness though, any unit performs better when helped with artillery or airpower. My point was, given SEALs "unique" features, what is the best way to capitalize on those in terms of promotions for going up against 3CG infantry.

-- SJN

the 1 thats gives you 25% against gunpowder units

the 1 thats gives you 25% against gunpowder units

The "Pinch" promotion.

So, at the end of my current game, I entered world builder and created some SEALs to compare.

My enemy already had mechanized infantry (i.e., won't win without air or artillery), but I just wanted to compare combat odds between different "high" promotions for comparison.

So, my opponent is a mechanized infantry with the following promotions:
CG3, drill1

My SEALs:

1. Drill IV - .04%
2. Combat V - 1.4%
3. Combat III/Pinch - 1.3%
4. Drill III/Pinch - 0.3%
5. Drill III/Combat II - 1.4%
6. CR3 - 4.1%
7. Flanking II - < 0.1%, 30% withdrawl chance

Obviously, the last two aren't normally available in the game.

So, for the "normal" game, it seems like a mix of drill and combat are the winning options.

If I had anything to do with the "SEAL" unit, I would raise the cost (to represent the elite-ness) and give him Flanking abilities. I think that would be a "cool" but balanced way to simulate real-life SEAL missions.

For just pure fun and mayhem, making the city raider promotion line available to the SEAL is the way to go.

-- SJN

someone created a Texas Civ and used a Ranch (replaces Stable) as a Unique Building and Rangers (Cavalry)as the Unique Unit. Both of those would be much better suited to America rather than the silly SEAL unit.

someone created a Texas Civ and used a Ranch (replaces Stable) as a Unique Building and Rangers (Cavalry)as the Unique Unit. Both of those would be much better suited to America rather than the silly SEAL unit.

I like the concept of a SEAL unit. I just think it doesn't pack enough punch, or, alternatively, enough stealth.

And I don't think a Texas Ranger is really an "American" unit. First of all, it's not even a military force (in modern times I suppose). Secondly, while very Texan, it's not very "American" in the sense that it is tied to American identity as a whole.

Marines don't get a bonus against mobile artillery so I don't even build them anymore. I think first extra first strikes is a kinda lame excuse for a UU, especially one that comes so late in the game.

Ranger is Texas specific- Cavalry would be good for america becuase American Cavalry conquered the west.

Marines don't get a bonus against mobile artillery so I don't even build them anymore. I think first extra first strikes is a kinda lame excuse for a UU, especially one that comes so late in the game.

Did you just forget the free march AND/OR amphibious promotions...?

I wouldn't exactly classify marines and mobile artillery as belonging to the same era; be like saying you don't build horse archers because they suck against pikemen....

Are the required units? No. They do, however, give you another means of attacking and if you are dealing with island areas at all become invaluable since you can save your XP promotions for actual combat boosters.

I think overall the American UU should be an air unit, albeit late in the game.
They seem pretty obsessed in the modern age with air superiority. I mean, they only need to lose a couple of navy SEAL units and the public War Weariness goes through the roof, thus forcing the abandonment of the war objective!

Hmmmmm......Somalia, Mogadishu?! :rolleyes::lol::mischief:

I think overall the American UU should be an air unit, albeit late in the game.
They seem pretty obsessed in the modern age with air superiority. I mean, they only need to lose a couple of navy SEAL units and the public War Weariness goes through the roof, thus forcing the abandonment of the war objective!

Hmmmmm......Somalia, Mogadishu?! :rolleyes::lol::mischief:

That's more because we lack enough jails and don't have a police state. The 25% WW reduction due to Mount Rushmore just isn't enough to cope with the high populations that our cities have.

SEAL means "Sea Air and Land". Thus Navy SEALs should be able to do air drops. I modded them that ability in my game. The only problem is that it makes paratroopers mostly useless for the Americans.





That's more because we lack enough jails and don't have a police state. The 25% WW reduction due to Mount Rushmore just isn't enough to cope with the high populations that our cities have.

Bush has been trying to get us to adopt police state for awhile now. :mischief:

WE DEMAND DEMOCRACY! -5 unhappy

I feel sorry for you guys having to play by the rules with one hand tied behind your back, while the infidels run amok doing as they please......

The SEAL is actually a really good unit. What you have to think about is using it for its intended purpose. It's not designed to be the main invasion force that conquers an enemy. Tanks, bombers and infantry will be doing most of that. The marine unit is something you use to carry out a sneak attack. When you are going for a space win, or a domination win and a rival is about to get a cultural win, for example, invariably one of his super culture cities will be coastal. Pack a dozen or two marines on a transport, sail to his border, and then declare war. You can declare war and then sail to his city and attack it on the same turn. Even if his army is twice the size of yours, you will be able to overwhelm at least one city and then raze it. The normal marine unit can do this too, but the SEAL is more efficient at the job. The SEAL is for a strategic situation where one city is of particular importance. Another example: you are neck and neck with the AI for a space win. They launch their space ship first. No biggie if their capital is coastal. Again...even if their military is three times the size of yours...like they have 300 units and you have only 100...they probably have only 30 or so in their capital. If you have 40 marines with some ship and air bombardment to help them, bye bye capital and bye bye space ship for them.

@noto2: You describe a good use of marines in general but the SEAL, with its march and first-strike promotions, is definitely better used in a series of naval attacks (ideally 1 or more each turn or couple of turns) since they heal immediately after their attack. If you are going to attack 1 city only then it really doesn't matter if you heal right away (although if you garrison the city in question it would make holding it easier). This doesn't detract from the SEAL but it doesn't utilize its benefits very much either.

My SEALs usually start out with Combat 1+2 and Pinch. The +25% against gunpowder helps level the field against Mech. Infantry.

The 1-2 First Strikes is the real strength of the unit. Bomb a city back to the stone age, and have your SEALs clean up the mess. With the first strikes, they may not even suffer any damage, and with the March promotion anything less than 25% is automatically healed by the next turn.

For a really surgical unit, give the SEALs nothing but Drill promotions. Once promoted to Drill IV, you can have a unit with 4 first strike chances, 3 first strikes and -60% collateral damage.

I just wish every civ got a chance to have a similar unit, maybe under the title of "Special Forces" or something similar. Much like Infantry upgrade to Mech. Infantry, maybe Marine and Paratrooper units could upgrade to Special Forces.

I just wish every civ got a chance to have a similar unit, maybe under the title of "Special Forces" or something similar. Much like Infantry upgrade to Mech. Infantry, maybe Marine and Paratrooper units could upgrade to Special Forces.

This is exactly what im working on. Ill provide a screenshot later today :)

So, about attacking a costal capital city to disrupt a space-race...

By the time the spaceships are launched in my games (prince difficulty) the enemy has mechanized infantry and fighters. If he has a bunch of fighters patrolling his capital city, and some in range from other cities, I'm going to have to arrive with enough carriers to take out the fighters AND do damage to the city garrison units before any marines/SEALs attack will do any good.

What's really sad about this point in the game is that modern armor promoted with city raider, even with the attacking from the sea penalty, is a better choice than the SEALs.

Navy seal is so useful, it should be replaced with "Corrupt Lobbyiest".

If it had access to City raider and a 30% withdraw chance, i think it would be right on the mark of what it needs to be. Your exactly right about the theory of how they work:

In - Done - Out

even a 20% withdraw would be fair, and i don't even like america in game. (i liked it better in Civ3 when they had the jet UU)

Bush has been trying to get us to adopt police state for awhile now. :mischief:

Read the patriot act, were almost there. Read the new wiretap laws, now there is no more privacy anywhere. That places american civics at:

Police State
(i think this is evident enough when compared with the fact that our government responds to crime by labeling criminals and not solving the issues that create crime)

Bureaucracy
(I know we have a free speech clause, but our system is run by bureaucrats, and what good is a voice in a society of the deaf?)

Slavery
(Ok, i am a little harsh but with the sinking dollar value, and all the rising wal-marts and burger kings to replace our industrial economy, our wage values are dropping, and the jobs themselves never want to cough up double digits anymore. in 1999, the avg GOOD job hired in at 9 - nowadays its still the same)

Free Market
(NAFTA makes us so, but with the eminent domain laws, we are heading into a transition of State Property)

Organized Religion
(We all know the christan coalition has this country locked down, and while free to choose non-christan paths in life, it can often lead to an unbearable ammount of social scrutiny)

By the way, i am an american.

Comparing Modern Armor and SEALs is a little unfair. SEALs replace Marines, which I am able to build a lot sooner than Modern Armor. Weighing the SEAL against a regular Tank would be a more apt.

I'm a big believer in nuking a city and then taking it with SEALs, especially if you absolutely have to capture a city right then. Even with a SDI stopping 3 out of 4 nukes, eventually one is going to get through.

My sea groups have two transports of 8 eight SEALs, six with combat + pinch promotions and two with nothing but CG promotions. After the nuke drops, I use the combat six SEALs to seize the city, while the 2 CG SEALs fortify and hold the fort until Mech. Infantry can arrive to replace them.

Read the patriot act, were almost there. Read the new wiretap laws, now there is no more privacy anywhere. That places american civics at:

Police State
(i think this is evident enough when compared with the fact that our government responds to crime by labeling criminals and not solving the issues that create crime)

Bureaucracy
(I know we have a free speech clause, but our system is run by bureaucrats, and what good is a voice in a society of the deaf?)

Slavery
(Ok, i am a little harsh but with the sinking dollar value, and all the rising wal-marts and burger kings to replace our industrial economy, our wage values are dropping, and the jobs themselves never want to cough up double digits anymore. in 1999, the avg GOOD job hired in at 9 - nowadays its still the same)

Free Market
(NAFTA makes us so, but with the eminent domain laws, we are heading into a transition of State Property)

Organized Religion
(We all know the christan coalition has this country locked down, and while free to choose non-christan paths in life, it can often lead to an unbearable ammount of social scrutiny)

By the way, i am an american.

I'm really happy that I am an American. I'm glad that I can

1. Vote at the age of 18 no matter what I think of the politics and policies, Christians, Bush, the patriot act, and so forth [Universal Sufferage]

2. Say whatever I'd like about said politics, policies, Christians, Bush, the patriot act, and so forth [Free Speech]

3. Pursue happiness ("property" in the original draft of the Declaration of Independence) as far as talent and hard work will take me. By this I mean I can choose my education, place of living, family or lack thereof, entertainment, free time, friends, and job within the bounds of my own personal resources and skills [Emancipation]

4. Open a business if I want where I am largely free to take all the risk, ruin, or success that it produces. It's been interesting to see my brother run his own business and experience times of plenty and times of famine, but all under his own power and ingenuity [Free Market]

5. Practice whatever religion I feel inclined to practice. Certainly my life is scrutinized by my neighbors. I know that as the only practicing Christian in my research group at my university, I get an awful lot of scrutiny, and more "raised eyebrows" than my peers. I'm grateful that they can choose to not believe in God, and I can choose to believe in God, and they can think I'm strange, and I can still be OK with that. When we both go to vote on election day, none of us will be asked what we do or don't believe and our votes will be counted either way [Free Religion].

I'm really grateful for my citizenship in my country. Certainly I think that the Patriot Act and FISA (approved by both parties by the way) are steps in the wrong direction. I'm really grateful for the experience of writing my congresspersons and letting them know how I feel about it and for the chance to express myself in voting this fall.

-- SJN

Marines, i can tell you i have never built one. theyre slow. they suck. by the time i have ever been able to get them, i have also been able to get paratroopers, which are better. heck, i even think rifleman are better, because they cost less.

kinda like how you get castles, but gunpowder comes soooo soon afterward that it really isn't worth building castles. I liked americas Civ3 jet - but i like the idea of the marine replacing Air troopers as well.

Is this unbalanced: (Replaces marine)
Paradrop 3 spaces
amphibous
access to city raider


I ask because i dont know if it would be, but in most of my games the "tech era" of using marines become tanks very fast.

Marines can move 7 squares and still attack on the same turn without penalty, how is that slow? They can do this even while traveling through an opposing civ's culture.

1. Vote at the age of 18 no matter what I think of the politics and policies, Christians, Bush, the patriot act, and so forth [Universal Sufferage]
--Unless you have been a felon, and over the years many minor crimes have been re-branded to felonies. mostly from prohibition acts and amendments re-classifying crimes. Also, Native Americans can't vote unless they waive their rights as native americans.


2. Say whatever I'd like about said politics, policies, Christians, Bush, the patriot act, and so forth [Free Speech]
----In our society nobody listens. nobody cares. our government has bred apathy to counter what free speech does. Mind you the patriot act labels many forms of protest as terrorist activity?


3. Pursue happiness ("property" in the original draft of the Declaration of Independence) as far as talent and hard work will take me. By this I mean I can choose my education, place of living, family or lack thereof, entertainment, free time, friends, and job within the bounds of my own personal resources and skills [Emancipation]
--------I almost agree with this one, but when your poor you are limited to a credit score and personal finances, and that can VERY MUCH change your options to almost none.

4. Open a business if I want where I am largely free to take all the risk, ruin, or success that it produces. It's been interesting to see my brother run his own business and experience times of plenty and times of famine, but all under his own power and ingenuity [Free Market]
-----I agree with this, but i thought NAFTA made us free market? (casting away my opinions, i think NAFTA does classify us as Free Market)

5. Practice whatever religion I feel inclined to practice. Certainly my life is scrutinized by my neighbors. I know that as the only practicing Christian in my research group at my university, I get an awful lot of scrutiny, and more "raised eyebrows" than my peers. I'm grateful that they can choose to not believe in God, and I can choose to believe in God, and they can think I'm strange, and I can still be OK with that. When we both go to vote on election day, none of us will be asked what we do or don't believe and our votes will be counted either way [Free Religion].
------------However, many churches have abused this in lobby groups to keep other religions "in check" as whackos and minor entites.

I'm really grateful for my citizenship in my country. Certainly I think that the Patriot Act and FISA (approved by both parties by the way) are steps in the wrong direction. I'm really grateful for the experience of writing my congresspersons and letting them know how I feel about it and for the chance to express myself in voting this fall.

Im glad you at least see FISA and Patriot Act as bad steps. I am also greatful for being able to write them, even though my letters are probably screened by someone who decides my opinions are minority and throw it away - and send me some campaign stuff.
This fall, i don't know where to vote, i was 100% Obama until i saw him vote for the federal wiretap bill. Now, i feel betrayed. I may be forced for the third time in a row, to vote for ralph nader or some other reject as a "protest vote".

All in all, i am glad for the liberties i do have - i am enraged by the censorships on how i may express them, and in the lifestyle choices i can make. I also know i am better off than in Iran or Kenya, but besides the point, i feel the decisions that present our choices - are limited to the party in power, the corporations of the era and the schemes of greed. I am glad for what i do have, what i am mad about is what was either taken away or exists in name only.

EDIT: I will no longer respond to posts about this, but i will read any further input. I don't want this forum to become flamed with these kind of things, as it is pretty off topic. I am glad for the exchange of ideas though, and i am thankful you didn't say im just a whacko who needs to shut up - that is a big improvement from the people i am used to discussing these things with.

Marines can move 7 squares and still attack on the same turn without penalty, how is that slow? They can do this even while traveling through an opposing civ's culture

I never knew that, i might have to try them out for a change and see if i start using them. I suppose i only ever thought of them as "navy attackers", which i don't do often.

I'm really happy that I am an American. I'm glad that I can

1. Vote at the age of 18 no matter what I think of the politics and policies, Christians, Bush, the patriot act, and so forth [Universal Sufferage]

2. Say whatever I'd like about said politics, policies, Christians, Bush, the patriot act, and so forth [Free Speech]

3. Pursue happiness ("property" in the original draft of the Declaration of Independence) as far as talent and hard work will take me. By this I mean I can choose my education, place of living, family or lack thereof, entertainment, free time, friends, and job within the bounds of my own personal resources and skills [Emancipation]

4. Open a business if I want where I am largely free to take all the risk, ruin, or success that it produces. It's been interesting to see my brother run his own business and experience times of plenty and times of famine, but all under his own power and ingenuity [Free Market]

5. Practice whatever religion I feel inclined to practice. Certainly my life is scrutinized by my neighbors. I know that as the only practicing Christian in my research group at my university, I get an awful lot of scrutiny, and more "raised eyebrows" than my peers. I'm grateful that they can choose to not believe in God, and I can choose to believe in God, and they can think I'm strange, and I can still be OK with that. When we both go to vote on election day, none of us will be asked what we do or don't believe and our votes will be counted either way [Free Religion].

I'm really grateful for my citizenship in my country. Certainly I think that the Patriot Act and FISA (approved by both parties by the way) are steps in the wrong direction. I'm really grateful for the experience of writing my congresspersons and letting them know how I feel about it and for the chance to express myself in voting this fall.

-- SJN


Wow, dude, I have to say this is possibly the most intelligent thing I have ever read in these fora. Well I shouldn't assume you're a dude, maybe you're a dudette, but not likely. Anyhow...it is quite ironic, isn't it, that all the people in the west who bash America are free to do so based on the values that America spread to the rest of the western world, such as free speech, free press, free religion, etc. I live in Canada and there is no shortage of America bashers up here. But you know what? As annoying as I find them I fully support their right to voice their opinion. Thank God we both live in countries where we are free to criticize and even make fun of our governments. I can walk up to Stephen Harper's face and say he's an idiot and nothing would happen to me. You can write an article about how G. Bush's policies are stupid and nothign will happen to you. Not like in Saudi Arabia where you get put in prison for life if you write a book critical of the government (same with China), or in Iran you get your head cut off (literally) if you are found to be homosexual, or how in the Soviet Union you would go to prison if you were found to be worshipping God, etc, etc. I am so lucky to be born in the west where I have rights and the state has limitations.

Wow, dude, I have to say this is possibly the most intelligent thing I have ever read in these fora. Well I shouldn't assume you're a dude, maybe you're a dudette, but not likely. Anyhow...it is quite ironic, isn't it, that all the people in the west who bash America are free to do so based on the values that America spread to the rest of the western world, such as free speech, free press, free religion, etc. I live in Canada and there is no shortage of America bashers up here. But you know what? As annoying as I find them I fully support their right to voice their opinion. Thank God we both live in countries where we are free to criticize and even make fun of our governments. I can walk up to Stephen Harper's face and say he's an idiot and nothing would happen to me. You can write an article about how G. Bush's policies are stupid and nothign will happen to you. Not like in Saudi Arabia where you get put in prison for life if you write a book critical of the government (same with China), or in Iran you get your head cut off (literally) if you are found to be homosexual, or how in the Soviet Union you would go to prison if you were found to be worshipping God, etc, etc. I am so lucky to be born in the west where I have rights and the state has limitations.



Yup, what these guys said :goodjob:
Love to be here in America. But I'm borderline about being proud of it. We Americans get laughed at by everyone else. We spend pooploads of money to places that doesn't deserve our money. Take care of home before you start spending money on others. Fix up the streets (no, the streets streets, not the ghetto streets), and then fix the ghetto streets, fix the MTAs, the school/college funds/FASFA, higher wages, lower inflation, more hospitals and libraries and playgrounds/parks.

Take care of us, the citizens, because "supposely" we give you the power to do so.

Read the patriot act, were almost there. Read the new wiretap laws, now there is no more privacy anywhere. That places american civics at:

Police State
(i think this is evident enough when compared with the fact that our government responds to crime by labeling criminals and not solving the issues that create crime)

Bureaucracy
(I know we have a free speech clause, but our system is run by bureaucrats, and what good is a voice in a society of the deaf?)

Slavery
(Ok, i am a little harsh but with the sinking dollar value, and all the rising wal-marts and burger kings to replace our industrial economy, our wage values are dropping, and the jobs themselves never want to cough up double digits anymore. in 1999, the avg GOOD job hired in at 9 - nowadays its still the same)

Free Market
(NAFTA makes us so, but with the eminent domain laws, we are heading into a transition of State Property)

Organized Religion
(We all know the christan coalition has this country locked down, and while free to choose non-christan paths in life, it can often lead to an unbearable ammount of social scrutiny)

By the way, i am an american.

A slightly more correct version (only the most evident choice listed):

Representation: people elect some among themselves to run the country in various local and national governments. Only the voter is to blame for mistakes in leadership.

Free Speech: Short of cursing in school, there's very little you can't say in America. Of course some people will shun you, but thats not something the government can handle.

Emancipation: recessions come and they go. Thats no reason to be whining about "slavery" fast food restaurants. There are lots of countries out there who'd prefer $4/gal gas.

Free Market: eminent domain is not some overwhelming scheme (though I admit it has gone too far) and supply and demand control the American economy. Hopefully the environmentalist revolution wont be long off...

Free Religion: I dont know what to say. I have never heard of this "Christian Coalition" or witnessed its acts. I am a known atheist, and have friends from various religious backgrounds including several Protestants (Epsicopal, Baptist, some others), some Catholics, a couple of Mormons, two very devout Muslims, a Jew, a couple of Hindus, a Buddhist (albeit he's pretty lax) and another athiest. Religious tolerance is a foremost principle of America.

By the way, I'm an Indian immigrant who has lived in America for seven (7) years.

as i said i will refrain from posting further opinions to disourage flammage but i will respond to intelligible content. I agree with the reasons of representation, and i KNOW we are in emancipation, but the american economy traps people into low wage jobs where the maintenance costs in life can easily keep someone in poverty. if you live in America, then you know the costs of living. Imagine making $8.00 an hour, its what most americans actually make. Now, imagine you get into a medical debt or become a victim of predatory lending, or get caught in another scheme that shouldn't be legal. Now imagine losing 40% of your wages to it, bringing your roughly estimated $280 a week down to $160? How can you really live a quality life on that? You get trapped in it, and it really takes years of painstaking drudgery to escape it and to fall into it is very easy to do. While we are emancipation, recessions aren't the problem, its that every facet of the systems seems to contribute to the problems and referring to Representation, blame is always cast on the individual and never on the system. While we are not in slavery by any means, there really is economic slavery and it is ugly. I do not know the proper solution, and i do not accept that 100% of everything that happens to you is your fault. I want to live in an era where all business is done based on a code of ethics, and it is not hard to prove how unethical the system is. Emancipation yes - but with many strings attached.

The Christan Coalition - I will bite my tounge here as well. Pat Robertson - Jerry Fahwell, are 2 good examples. Now, not every christan organization is full of bible-beating whackos who teach disguised hate against everything they don't like - but the ones who do are the ones who control the media - the ones who spend a lot of money over laws based on "biblical morality". I am sure most christans will agree that some of these people are not fair to use as a representation of their religion by any means but as per free speech, they pay the most to be heard so when free speech is regulated by all you have to do to be heard or get a point across, the censorship of the media and the apathy that most people "don't care about anything if my life is comfortable". Apathy is the greater problem here, but it is manipulated.

I do not mean to sound too negative - i am well aware that i am better off than i would be if i were in Iran, Syria or Lebanon. But thats not the point, the point is that we sit here and pretend to be a cherry pie. It is the point that most of what we "have in the constitution and bill of rights" is voided by congressional acts, fine print and other such things.

I do not want to cause anyone not from america to think of us as cynical slave-state lunatics who have no compassion toward others, because this is not the case. However the power of the people has been lost long ago. It has been privatized, purchased and sold to the highest bidder. I do appreciate what little we do have left, i just fear it is temporary and that we are heading on a downward spiral.

The SEAL is a great unit. It is a Marine, that is good during extended campaigns.

Marines are best for that quick strike, or overwhelming first strike (on some maps, take several major cities in one go).
But they aren't designed to hold the land or push onwards.
SEALs on the other hand are designed for that. They are designed to win with minimal damage (first strikes), and advance without waiting to heal that damage (march).
I usually replace infantry with Marines (on water maps) or Paratroopers (on land maps) anyways, as they are your most mobile infantry. Just promote them for the situation.

It seems to be the opposite as the name would imply, but they are very good units.

Off-topic: Lets not discuss America in this topic please, this just leads to a flame war.
Every Country has it goods and bads, and everyone has an opinion, let's just keep those to ourselves.

On-Topic: Honestly, I haven't used to SEAL that much, if even at all, the use of the UU does depend on the player, if you use it well backed-up it's a great unit, but, as with almsot every unit, when using it alone, or without the right tactic, it fails.

I'm going to play a game with America now, focussing on a late game Domination win, uing the SEAL ;)

The point of having an opinion is muted if we are forced to keep it to ourselves.

That said I will not turn this into a flame war.

I will, however, say this: I agree to some extent with your economic analysis, thadian, and I certainly don't believe "that 100% of everything that happens to you is your fault," though I may have come off that way. I also don't believe that apathy is the major problem (though it certainly isa problem: I prefer to call it willingful ignorance) but extended capitalism. I don't support a command economy, but I believe the government needs to keep corporations in their place, quite contrary to Ronald Reagan's beliefs about government being the enemy.

No kidding... really? I had never heard of such a thing. You mean you can use airplanes to attack ground targets? Well that's way better than what I've been doing. I've been using them for air-shows to increase my civ's happiness. Thank goodness the civ fanatics boards are blessed with such historians to help the rest of us.

In all seriousness though, any unit performs better when helped with artillery or airpower. My point was, given SEALs "unique" features, what is the best way to capitalize on those in terms of promotions for going up against 3CG infantry.

-- SJN

The point I was making was that a SEAL`s innate power would never be good enough really, and needs to be fighter supported for the initial landing.

I have finally done it - i have promoted my rifleman to SEAL's instead of infantry.

I am kind of dissapointed. for being a UU i can't say i feel it is... well, it sure isn't a pretorian. it ain't no Gaelic Swordsman. It is not a "groundbreaker" or a gamechanger. It isn't... how do i put it.

It isn't special. Yes, i was able to move them fast into enemy territory and secure some hills, forests, forts they didn't have secured etc. But it seemed like they sat around and waited to get obselete. It was like using explorers that can be used for combat.

I must hold my original opinion that Civ 3 was right on the mark with a unique jet instead. The real reason i am dissapointed with this unit as i said earlier, is that when they come, it is too close to when better things also come. it isn't weak - no, not by any means.

The units i had piled on the hills did their job, i started choking the AI right away instead of 5 turns into the war. that really was nice, but aside from that, they did not do anything for me. When i think about it, i must ask - is the SEAL really MEANT to be what the pretorian is? maybe not. perhaps having a "Twink" america unit would break the game too much.

So, keeping in mind the "power level" of unique units compared to all the rest of the unique units, perhaps they did not want the marine to give america an early "tank" of sorts. I really hope that in the next addition of Civilization that the USA unique unit is either a jet that has more HP, maybe does a little less damage, and maybe has "higher accuracy".


Lastly, i would like to say i am impressed by the maturity level of the group in this thread. I think i have posted views that could be considered as contreversal. For the most part, everyone who made a comment was mature and tactful in how they handled their input, and we did a good job of expressing our viewpoints in a manner that keeps flammage away. I am very suprised and impressed that this has been able to happen, thank you everyone - weather we agree or disagree - that we were able to take a small time out of a thread to discuss something that normally becomes very unpleasant very fast, and handling it in this kind of a way. The best part, is even after this discussion, there (in my opinion) is no negativity, and we are able to still use this thread for its origonal intent - to discuss a unit in the game.

Unbelievable the amount of people down on SEALS in game terms here. I think general usage of marines must be a bit weak if people are missing the appeal of SEALS.

SEALS, or just plain marines, allow you to make amphibious strikes without penalty. Unless you go for combat II + amphibious (aka you're aggressive) or you are the vikings and upgrade their UU, there is no unit that does this prior to marines/SEALS.

Once you CAN do it, I recommend doing so. Amphibious attacks are extremely devastating to the AI. Bombard defenses down with ships and take every coastal city the AI has with marines or SEALS. The cool thing about SEALS is, with a medic III unit (or any medic really) they heal lightning quick after battles - and first strikes + combat/pinch make them win battles more often than stock infantry. This boils down to a lot more effective invasions via naval power.

I've not read the ENTIRE thread, but I've not seen anything on a favorite use of these units in this scenario - keep them unpromoted until attacking, and then once you've taken the city put a couple city garrison SEALS in there. CG SEALS with first strikes don't fall easily, and say 3 left behind will cost the AI dearly to retake (and you can eventually loop back around and retake it).

The above strategy isn't very useful on pangaea or terra (barring some oddities like heavily developed new world). On any other map, it's dominating to game-breaking - so much that I do it with all civs but find America particularly deadly about it. How strong? It's usually enough to force capitulation. About half my continents/hemispheres type games end in domination, conquest, or vassal-powered diplomatic wins due to chain capitulations once I get this kind of advantage. The % I do this on archipelago is much higher...

They're a bit better than marines as land attackers. Because of march they can cut through huge tracts of land very quickly - especially with a tech lead. Take a couple artillery or use spies.

i normally use "Fractal" maps, so the power of a navy is important, but i prefer to land units in hills near cities to start a choke and force the AI to move out of cities to deal with it.

Most often, i see the AI empty their coastal cities instead of their interior ones to deal with coastal hill chokers, which means even less effort is needed to capture the city itself. I am sure you play on a harder difficulty than i do, i play on Monarch.

I guess that i am a more defensive type player who would rather war to make the AI attack me in my borders (with great wall for GG bonus) then use a naval strike for 1-2 cities when they exhaust themselves. I only war for 2-3 cities at once, i almost never war for the long-term. I do agree that the naval assaults are powerful, but isn't it "better" to sit a stack or 2 featuring machineguns, and some other type of troop? the AI might pull troops out of multiple cities to deal with the "sac-stack" and make their cities vulnurable to your actual landing.

I am open to your advice though, if you think the correct usage of the marine unit is what i need to up my gameplay a level - i will attempt it. i normally OB with the enemies neighbor (when i can) and airlift everything to his cities for a few turns and assemble internally. especially if i can make my friend AI cancel his deals, now i have an "invincible area" to return injured units to. The AI will stupidly chase your units over to the border and sit there while i move my other stack in from a different part of the border. This has lessened my need of a strong amphibious assault.

So here is my question. When an AI has no neighbor to exploit, and is isolated on a fortress island where ONLY a strong assault by navy will work. Do you feel it is better to

A: Use a landing of marines to take some cities -
B: Use a beachhead with a backup strike -

and when you are "on their land do you

A: Capture the cities (planning to airlift in medic/defenders
B: Raze their cities to deny them capital and resources?

I know this is mostly dependant on weather or not you have flight, so we will say both you have flight and they have flight.

Edit: I ask because my weakness in the modern era is balancing out my airlift re-enforce vs navy re-enforce.

On an actual gameplay note, I agree that SEALS aren't the most overwhelmingly powerful of UUs, but they are incredibly useful. I anyway use marines+airpower when capturing any coastal city, whether on my continent or not, and the SEAL takes it further as a force that can not only capture coastal cities, but can also immediately march inwards to the next city, while healing whatever damage they take. Most of my late game foes are far behind me, and my SEALS almost never have anything beyond riflemen to deal with (sometimes longbowmen) so Drill IV+ 1-2 first strikes mean they often eliminate faes without any damage whatsoever. These drill promotions also increase their likelihood of killing any counterattack without any damage, and also reduce collateral damage by any siege weapons.

I, too, am pleased, though not surprised, by the civil nature of this thread and am happy to say that I agree completely with thadian's belief that there have been no hard feelings here, despite our differing views.

The point I was making was that a SEAL`s innate power would never be good enough really, and needs to be fighter supported for the initial landing.
So do marines, infantry, paratroopers, and (if facing reasonable opposition) tanks, mech inf, and even modern armour. Really, once you get to the medieval age, when facing equal opposition you need support.

So here is my question. When an AI has no neighbor to exploit, and is isolated on a fortress island where ONLY a strong assault by navy will work. Do you feel it is better to

A: Use a landing of marines to take some cities -
B: Use a beachhead with a backup strike -
It depends on the situation. A secondary attack is always useful, but it is situational. If you have the ability, taking every enemy coastal city in one blow is amazing. Normally my first wave is almost all marines sometimes with a few paratroopers (for pillaging oil, or aluminum). The second wave is full of tanks, and other units (this is assuming the second wave will only be delayed a couple turns).
While waiting for this second wave, SEALs can quickly push inland, and when facing a counter-attack, they are more effective vs. numbers than marines.


and when you are "on their land do you

A: Capture the cities (planning to airlift in medic/defenders
B: Raze their cities to deny them capital and resources?
It depends. Am I conquering them? If so, capturing some cities is essential.
Am I just crippling them so they can't tech to space (or some other reason)? Then if there are sufficient coastal cities, just raze. Reload marines and head to the next city. If razing SEALs are as advantaged, as [I think] units heal while on transports anyways.

The real benefits of SEALs is that they can push inland after the strike. giving the AI less time to respond.