What are some good tools and tactics for Renaissance SoD busting? I have two planned upcoming wars in this era in my main game at the moment (posting from work, so I can't post it). I'm currently at gunpowder and guilds, researching Printing Press (I'm Mansa Musa...), and licking my wounds after a war where The Chinese Leader Who's Not Mao forced my SoD onto the defensive -- a role it played very poorly -- and ground it to pieces after my initial 3-city gain. He would have 0wned me thanks to my bullheadedness, but where common sense failed, the Pope succeeded. :lol: (AP vote.)

His SoD's were elephant-heavy, so I guess pikemen are OK if I can get him to attack me, and I guess I need fewer trebs/city attackers and more longbows/cats overall... what else should I have out there the next time I see a typical China Renaissance elephant-enhanced SoD? How 'bout a typical Ramsses Renaissance SoD?

(Assume tech parity, or a tiny tech lead for me.)

Bostock

Medeival warfate with China should be avoided. Their UU makes short work of anything you can field at that point, and both leaders of China are protective, so extra first strikes make it even worse.

If you need to fight China when it has Chu-ko-nus, use lots of knights or cuirassiers. Mounted units are the best counter for a SoD, because they do splash damage to siege engines. Pikes don't counter knights as well as spears counter horse archers, so medieval times is when mounted units really shine. Once rifles (which will probably make up the bulk of a stack) show up, cannons + cavalry are best for destroying stacks.

With the combination of Elephants to bust any defending mounted units and Choks to bust any defending melee units, your best bet would be to hit China's stacks with catapults to soften them up before they attack you or to defend in a city with a lot of CG2 or CG3 longbowmen. But Magma Dragoon is right, you would be best to avoid attacking China until you get to gunpowder weapons (cannons, cuirassiers, and riflemen).

Cuirassiers are actually hold their own fairly well against pikes and elephants, so those should be your next stop before you continue your war with china. But CivCorpse is generally right, cats are your best friend and don't rely on your melee for much against the chinese because they will die fast.

Yeah, fortunately at the start of the mentioned war he was still in the "teched the tech but ain't walked the walk" stage of chokonuism.

When I got gunpowder, the tech info mentioned it unlocking cuirassiers so I thought I was in the clear in that aspect. Looks like I might be in for an unpleasant surprise. (You can tell I don't do midgames much.) Ah well, in any case, I really need to rebuild my economy for a bit, so I can wait for the tech if need be.

Very good point about the CKN anti-melee bonus.

I hate attacking China, especially since they're brothers of the (nearly pangaea-dominating) faith. But they wonderwhored in Beijing, and I lust lust lust.

Bostock

Speaking from a Warlords perspective (no BtS)....

Late Renaissance SoD's are difficult to bust. You basically have to through lots of suicide Cats at them, then clean them up with lots of other units (Pikemen are usually best, since the AI tend to go heavy with the Mounted Units). It's a strange period of time where the SoD's on the move are actually way harder to destroy than the SoD's in a city.

Thankfully, you should be able to get fairly quickly to Chemistry and be able to start using Grenadiers against the SoD's.

Thankfully, you should be able to get fairly quickly to Chemistry and be able to start using Grenadiers against the SoD's.
That is indeed a Warlords perspective - this very strategy (the Gren beeline) has been reined back into obscurity by BtS.

Assuming you did not have any Curassiers or Grenadiers, your best bet is combat promoted Catapults. Have enough of these, and the rest is just mopping up which can be done by any old unit.

Either outtech him or use siege and have sufficient #s of troops

Grenadiers are not that great against inferior tech opponents (since their bonus is only against riflemen). If I am ahead in war tech, I go for riflemen for the higher strength (14 vs 12).

Lure them into a city and use trebuchets.

Split your stack in several while Qin Shi Huang wastes his time on ONE stack.

Interestingly enough, the Chinese leaders don't seem to be attacking with their CHO-KO-NU's first....

First of all, the OP is asking about how to bust renaissance SoDs and, IMO, the most important thing to know is

1) where is/are the enemy SoD(s)?

This knowledge can be gained with the use of espionage or with good ol' open borders snooping. (Airships are really good later.) The AI often masses their army in one or another spot, sometimes without any regard to rational strategy, but very often close to your border. Once you know where it is, you can

2) DoW the target, causing them to foolishly send their SoD across your border to be massacred.

Of course, you brought plenty of siege and you held off on giving them promotions so you can send in a few barrage suicidapults before your attackers go in. With the AI's main SoD in ruins you can move on to the first target city at your leisure. By luring the AI into your own territory you also save on war weariness big time.