We need to take a decision on settlement. I present the following four options for your consideration.

In all cases our president is empowered to disregard should the horse disclose relevant info in the next two turns.

My recommendation is option 1, but as this is a democracy please feel free to totally ignore it:D

Well its been suggested in other threads that Smash has hidden the special pattern so it could be useless to wait. It will probably be best if we move the horse man first and then if nothing is discovered, we should settle. Probably with settler one to the NW. Btw if there isn't a thread already, we need to to decide what the other settler will do.

Well its been suggested in other threads that Smash has hidden the special pattern so it could be useless to wait.


You can't play a game based on that kind of guessing, though. The idea is to apply a general strategy (of which there are several choices) to a specific circumstance.... ;)


There are really only 3 options: Settle with #1, Settle with #2, or continue to explore. The poll does a very good job distilling this, BTW. (Soon, there will be an additional question: should the other settler be used to found a city?)


To me, settler #1 is ready to found, so take the best spot known at this time (NW).

Ahh yes! The dangers of a democracy, where people vote without understanding the issues - me anyway! ;)

Would anyone care to expand a bit on the pros and cons of the settlement locations (particularly the N-W and S-E ones). I know that they were raised as the "best" settlement locations in the original screenshot thread, primarily because of the coastal location and the grassland shield squares - especially the NW one, as it has access to at least 3 grassland shields. What I'm interested in is what the chances are of the horseman discovering something on its first move that may affect this decision. Eg - if it moves north and finds a river, wouldn't it be prudent to have the "second" settler follow it and settle by the river (as an example).

I guess what I'm saying is 1.) what are the pros/cons of settling in each of the locations in the visible area and 2.) shouldn't we wait until the horseman has moved before making this decision?



P.S. - I agree that we shouldn't base decisions on a guess as to whether or not Smash has hidden the specials. I can imagine that he'd be wetting himself laughing if he hadn't hidden them. :lol:


P.P.S. That's given me an idea for a new smiley.....

i go with bigfatron...move the settler northwest and settle it. we need to establish our capital as soon as possible to avoid falling too far behind other civs...

The NW site has 3 visible grassland shield tiles in the city radius, but the SE site only has 2. Thus, NW looks better to me. This site also has more grassland and less plains in the radius. Seems like a decent place to make lots of settlers. We'll find a good specials location soon enough (I hope).

Originally posted by ainwood

I guess what I'm saying is 1.) what are the pros/cons of settling in each of the locations in the visible area and 2.) shouldn't we wait until the horseman has moved before making this decision?


1 - mostly the extra grassland/shield square for the NW, and the forest will lead to a 3 shield square come railroad, 2 shields before so we can churn out settlers that bit faster. This city does look like it will be our settler production centre in the early days rather than a science city.

2 - yes, if we were to move the horse N/NE and find (say) a silk on a river then we'd want to build there asap, but we do have the second settler to cover that eventuality. Hence the catch-all 'freedom of manoeuver' [damn, never could spell that word right] for Mr Pres!

option 1, but move the horse first and the Pres has discretion to modify our plan dependent on what the horsie may find :)

NW & settle. Need to get a city going, and that looks to be
a decent location. And as bigfatron noted, we still have a settler
available if the horse varmint finds something

looks like the vote is a very high majority...settle nw.

Once again a clear decision - settler 1 to move NW and settle. I shall advise the praesidium accordingly!

Well, looks like I've lost this from the start, but I think we should go East, to avoid the 'dead zone' between the city and the SSC.

I agree that this should be re-evaluated since we now know much more about the terrain around us.

I have just posted this in the turn thread, but I'll post it here too, at the risk of an accusation of spam, so that it might convince people to agree with me on this. :D
I doubt that anyone will argue with the siting of the SSC, our second city, on the plains to encompass the two whales )and potentially more).
I think that the capital should be on the grassland shield to the east of where the settler has built the road. This will waste a grassland shield admittedly, but it will have a lot more production potential than including so many sea squares and minimise corruption for the SSC while still allowing harbour and ship construction. An excellent site for Shakespeare's Theatre and the production and rehoming of a load of BBs if our strategy points that way. :goodjob:

I am also leaning towards that city placement.

I'm just not sure which city should be built first. Does the capital being built right away do more for us than the SSC having no corruption?

It will take 5 turn to found the SSC, and if we found the capital straight off then with the road already built, we'll get the first tech in 5 turns. Over time, I've found that in a Republic I can lose a few trade arrows with the capital just one square's space away from the SSC so whether we want to get underway quickly or wait to ensure we don't miss out on what will be more science beakers in the future. I say to wait and possibly get some more NON units with which to run wild, but maybe this calls for a Domestic Advisor poll! :D

Since we have not yet founded, and we posses a great deal of new knowledge, this poll is now obsolete beause it does not provide options for what we have discovered up north... and those discoveries affect placement and order of founding dramatically.

In effect, we have a couple very poerful options now, where as the info we had earlier showed clearly the NW spot was best for the #1 city.


From one of the turn 3900 threads of DoM, i posted this (quoted for clarity):
If we move the #1 settler straight north, build a road, and simultaneously move the #2 settler to the 3/4 special SSC spot, they will both arrive at their respective founding spots simultaneously. This means that in exactly 4 turns, we will have 2 cities producing 3 beakers, and science will be pretty quick. The SSC/Capital must be foounded firs, so as not to waste that very vulnerable trade. Two whales gives two more arrows, and if it is founded 2nd, those will likely be lost to corruption, and slow progress to Monarchy (plus gold buildup) significantly.

The power city will be up north. It is going to produce over 30 shields before RR, and it wil also easily hit 120 trade. I think it is going to hit close to 150 trade at times. The southern capital option will not be as powerful, naturally (without the whales). It will be a minimum of size 33 city, and likely a size 35... and the city will be able to generate over 1500 science beakers by itself (in a democracy with the proper attention).

But the critical years are until Flight. With republic, colossus, and KRC, the SSC can almost single-handedly defeat all comers. But even Republic + Courthouse + Roads cannot save the waste (shields) and corruption (arrows) if it's gagantuan output is hobbled by not having the Palace.

The other option is to found the capital in the original spot 3 turns earlier, and later build a 100-shield (half a wonder) palace at the 3/4 SSC spot. I do not like that option, but it is something for the citizens to consider.

All we are losing is 6 food and 6 shields by building the capital at the SSC (3 turns of production). No net science is lost because of the extra arrow output of the SSC vc. the original spot.


The point about the "lost" squares of production is valid.... but those squares will not be lost, as a city will be founded that will spend it's life using the tiles between the 1st and 2nd cities. That middle city will likely be 2 (or maybe 3) squares north of the southern city (the #2 city) site. The east must be kept clear (e.g., not crowded by placing the #2 city further east), as it can right now even support #4 and probably #5 cities. If the #2 city (the #1 settler) founds to the east of the road, this area will be heavily impinged upon. The #1 settler has an ideal site (the original NW site) for shield production & growth & spawing new cities (e.g., settlers) rapidly. It will likely be the mother of all cities ;)....

I doubt that anyone will argue with the siting of the SSC, our second city, on the plains to encompass the two whales )and potentially more).
I think that the capital should be on the grassland shield to the east of where the settler has built the road. This will waste a grassland shield admittedly, but it will have a lot more production potential than including so many sea squares and minimise corruption for the SSC while still allowing harbour and ship construction. An excellent site for Shakespeare's Theatre and the production and rehoming of a load of BBs if our strategy points that way.

Actually, given what we now know, and closely examining the map and patterns, I have to disagree.

Here is why.

If we found any city to the east of the NW site, we will crowd our future eastern cities if the terrain does not extend a long ways east. The horseman can come down and find out what we have there, and the Chariot can go south, then curl west.

In the mean time, settler #1 can build a road (which is needed no matter what, and will be built and used no mater what). The delay is 3 days, not 5. The net cost is 6 food and 6 shields, and the shield loss will be made up and greatly rewarded by the elimination of the waste in the SSC/capital up north. Waste will not be a factor in Despotism for the south city until the 11th turn, wheras it will be effective immediatley if the SSC is the #2 city. This is a loss of 1 shield per turn in a city that needs to be making wonders.

Once Monarchy is established, the southern city will not experince waste until about size 4, wheras the SSC would get it at least one citizen sooner, due to the production of the whales.

With a Palace in the SSC, the trade production of the SSC will crush... totally crush... the early production of the reverse founding order.

Given the distance involved, if the #1 settler founds the #1 city, we are going to need a Palace, not courthouse, in the SSC city. That cost is half a wonder. I believe gaining half a wonder in early game is worth six food icons.



Keep in mind that in 3 turns from now, both settlers will be blinking and ready to move onto their founding tile, and found their cities on exactly the same turn (assuming settler #1 make a 2nd road segment straight north). The result will be a total of 3 science beakers, or three cities of output for the cost of only 2 cities. :)



Anyway, it is a profound early game mistake to found on a grassland shield when there are other suitable grassland non-shields to found on. This one tiny difference is a 100-shield penalty by the AD1500s.

In late game, multiples are what's even more important... and in many cases, it simple does not matter if you found on GNS or GS. But in early game, it make a stunning difference, and in the case of the terrain down south, must be avoided at all costs.

Anyway, my vote is still for the NW site, but I don't want it as the Capital (given that we know about the 2 whales, plus 1 or 2 more specials up north), it should be the #2 city, and we might as well make the road, which is needed in any event.

I like the idea of making the SSC also our capital. Based on Starlifter's analysis, it seems the losses from waiting will be worth what we will gain. Although my limited experience is that a SSC so close to the capital will not lose much in corruption and waste.

I've never waited so long to build my capital, but I'm in this to learn a bit how you guys think. Starlifter's logic seems accurate to me -- the corruption of a split Capital SSC would cost us every turn for the rest of the game. Build the capital and SSC with the NE Settler on the 2Whale plains. Also, the northern capital will reduce corruption as we expand north.

Imagine other city sites and build roads for the moment with the other Settler -- the roads will shortly be beneficial.

I take your points about the city site starlifter, but don't forget that we haven't uncovered 5 of the tiles in your planned city radius. If they all turn out to be mountains (unlikely, I admit) then your predictions for city size will have to be adjusted. This was the reason I suggested both units should explore to the east, so that the horseman can uncover the other squares for the planned city radius and see whether it will be a good spot. I didn't realise that the settlers hadn't moved this turn, which is why I said that it'd take 5 turns for both cities to be founded, if we waited for the SSC to be the capital. As it is, it'll still take 4 turns to found the cities, and we should be able to build another road by then wherever necessary. I agree that roading another grassland shield would be a good idea but the exploring units should give us a better idea of which city spot to choose. :D

That's weird. I posted a response here over a day ago after your above reply, DoY, but I don't see it. My machine must have glitched.


Well, hmmm. OK.

I'd posted the exact details about the city founding tradeoffs.
The distance between the SSC site and the NW site is 6.5. This means arrows # 4 & #7 will be corrupt in teh 2nd city founded. We will reach that point at size 2 at the SSC site, and at size 3 at the NW site, in despotism.

Further, shield #4 will be waste. A proper road to the Capital will cut Waste by delaying the first shield of waste to #7, then #10 is waste, too.

Here are the anticipated Despotism production levels:

SSC (Whales): 4food-3trade-3shield (size1); 6f-5t-5s (size 2); 8-6-6 (S3)

NW: 4-2-2 (S1); 6-3-3(S2); 8-4-4(S3, assuming a 3rd road)

The situation in Monarchy is greatly improved.

NW: Arrow#7 is corrupt; Shield #14 is waste; With proper capital road, shield #20 is corrupt.


Republic.

Estimates for a size 20 SSC trading with roaded size 12 (the old NW site), +10 for each route, 107 trade total, 500-550 Science @80%, 33 shields with 3 whales. No capital road to the size 12 city cuts route values to 7t, and reduces to 98 total trade (loses 50% bonus).

In Republic, if the SSC is the #2 city (e.g., not the capital), we can expect to loose about 3 trade per turn. We will squander 1 to 2 shields per day, at an output of 33, depending on roads and courthouses.





The price for this is not founding in 1 day, but in 4 days (a net delay of precisely 3 day). The cost is 3*2=6 food, and 3*2=6 shields and 3*2=6 trade, which splits to 3 gold and 3 science.

We will recover the science in 3 days of SSC production, and the shields later down the road. The 6 food is lost, and can be consided the price of obtaining lots more trade until we reach Democracy, Communism, or Fundamentalism. The shields differential will pay off with a profit, but not as dramatic as trade. By Republic, the shield dividend will be moot until we build KRC in the size 20 SSC, then we will have a tidy profit until a modern government.

For those that do not know, proper road systems to the capital slash waste, but do not affect trade.

So... for these reasons, I recommend we road one square north with Settler #1, while blitzing #2 (moving without delay & without roading along the way( to the SSC site on the plains near the hut Duke of M. popped.

On the 3rd turn from now, both settlers will be ready to move onto their founding sites, and on the 4th turn from now, found the SSC, then found the NW city. Let the NW crank out settlers, and maybe build a warrior with the SSC, then start a wonder. All other cities will then support the SSC with units and settlers and improved terrain. If our continent is small, at least one NONE unit will return to the SSC for barb defense shortly after Turn 16, when barbs can appear from land and sea.

The NW city will eventually be maxed (20 squares), and other cities will fit in around it, using all the terrain that is available. It will not be a perfect fit, but then that is not necessary in this situation. If a big river system is located, then that can be the raoded/RR'd permananent trade partner for the SSC, eventually. Proper roads and RRs pay huge dividends (50% each).

:)